00:01:04 <aidanh> Psymania: heh, re tags, those are less "tradition" and more "entrenched legacy crawlcode tech debt"; the good news is that if we need more bits, we should be able to bump up to a 128-bit int
00:02:16 <|amethyst> gcc at least has no native 128-bit int type on 32-bit architectures
00:02:19 <aidanh> er, s/tags/tile flags/
00:03:03 <aidanh> well i guess we could either refactor that godawful mess, or just add another layer of hacks on top
00:08:29 <aidanh> dpmdpm: damn, thanks for catching that; i'll roll out another fix
00:09:14 <aidanh> it looks like loadfile and load are unused, I will likely just stub them out rather than check for bytecode
00:09:29 <aidanh> also, 'load' is a horribly ungreppable name
00:11:26 <Psymania> aidanh, yeah, I figured that's what would probably happen
00:27:11 <aidanh> the thing about tile flags is that they're supposed to encapsulate what the renderer is supposed to draw at a given point in time, so the game state can change underneath
00:28:00 <aidanh> well, this is the point of packed_cell as well
00:28:27 <aidanh> but it generally ends up not capturing nearly enough, so the renderer code accesses env anyway, which causes weird bugs like https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12182
00:29:22 <aidanh> so yeah, we'd like to refactor that
00:40:07 <gammafunk> aidanh: I noticed when doing frozen ramparts stuff that packed_cell has state like is_bloody that I was going to follow as a pattern and add e.g. is_icy since I was likewise using fprop (that gets turned into a map flag), but right, then it just copies the map knowledge anyways as a member
00:40:12 <gammafunk> so I just used that
00:47:59 <aidanh> yes, you can do that relatively bug free now, because that's copied, rather than a reference to the current environment state
00:48:15 <aidanh> %git 2324e3a9aec
00:48:15 <Cheibriados> 07Aidan Holm02 * 0.24-a0-603-g2324e3a: Cache map knowledge for later rendering 10(5 months ago, 11 files, 141+ 83-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2324e3a9aec7
00:57:31 <aidanh> wrt tile flags specifically, the other main problem they solve is ensuring that webtiles and local tiles have the same visual output
00:58:31 <aidanh> but they do a bad job of that; both the webtiles and local renderer should just receive a list of tiles to render in each cell, instead of this weird abstraction
01:01:21 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.10] * 0.10.4-2-g3d82e3a: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d82e3a98a09
01:01:50 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.11] * 0.11.3-2-g0fe8763: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0fe87631c718
01:01:50 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.12] * 0.12.3-2-g5fc2533: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5fc253370d66
01:01:50 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.13] * 0.13.2-2-gfaa3be8: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/faa3be8cc353
01:01:50 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.14] * 0.14.2-2-g3546ee3: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3546ee3007df
01:02:18 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.15] * 0.15.2-2-g74d1fa4: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/74d1fa498536
01:02:18 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.16] * 0.16.2-14-gc338ae4: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c338ae411c42
01:02:18 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.17] * 0.17.2-3-ge1a6273: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e1a6273f384e
01:02:18 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.18] * 0.18.1-52-gdd222ca: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dd222cab7df4
01:02:18 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.5-3-g47ae8ad: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/47ae8add2ec1
01:02:47 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.20] * 0.20.1-4-g4af34ea: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4af34eaf8e14
01:02:47 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.21] * 0.21.2-3-g28b50fd: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/28b50fd9bbfa
01:02:47 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.22] * 0.22.2-3-g4f546fd: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4f546fdb5aca
01:02:47 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.23] * 0.23.2-44-ge536e68: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e536e68a2c74
01:03:15 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07[stone_soup-0.24] * 0.24.0-125-gc4c6360: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(29 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c4c63601f357
01:04:30 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.25-a0-514-gfc522ff: Disable lua load(), loadstring() bytcode loading 10(30 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fc522ff6eb1b
01:05:02 <aidanh> Pinkbeast, floraline, alexjurkiewicz: more patches to apply
01:06:53 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.16 - c338ae4 #12691 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025124
01:12:18 <gammafunk> travis gonna be busy for a bit
01:12:37 <gammafunk> will it even be able to compile all those versions?
01:14:36 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.17 - e1a6273 #12692 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025161
01:17:53 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-514-gfc522ff6eb (34)
01:19:45 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.25-a0-515-g2e551bc: Remove an unused function argument 10(8 hours ago, 6 files, 13+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e551bc22a1c
01:19:45 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.25-a0-516-g7d600cd: Have Fedhas protect plants from clouds (sdynet, 12195) 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 11+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7d600cd9adde
01:23:56 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.18 - dd222ca #12693 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025190
01:25:04 <Cheibriados> Wrong attack prompt when using Cleansing Flame. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12200 by Yermak
01:32:38 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.19 - 47ae8ad #12694 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025219
01:35:43 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-516-g7d600cd9ad (34)
01:40:38 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.20 - 4af34ea #12695 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025246
01:55:36 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.21 - 28b50fd #12696 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025271
01:59:57 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (stone_soup-0.22 - 4f546fd #12697 : Aidan Holm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651025293
02:00:17 <alexjurkiewicz> aidanh: thanks
02:00:45 <aidanh> alexjurkiewicz: reviewing your webtiles-changes now
02:01:44 <alexjurkiewicz> cool, thanks. Once that's merged I'm going to look at building a PR to allow using docker images for crawl binaries which might be a little hairy
02:02:34 <alexjurkiewicz> by the way, once the security fix is confirmed by dpm, it would be great if you can tag new releases for every stable
02:03:12 <aidanh> yeah, we will definitely do that
02:03:12 <alexjurkiewicz> well, at least the current stable. TBH I just removed old stables and I don't intend to bring them back on CPO, traffic was very low
02:10:03 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.25-a0-516-g7d600cd
02:10:13 <gammafunk> aidanh: hrm, you say in that commit "In general, render code should never access the
02:10:29 <gammafunk> global game state."
02:10:44 <gammafunk> but I did something of the sort in my changes
02:11:06 <gammafunk> !source tilecell.cc:517
02:11:07 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tilecell.cc#L517
02:11:15 <gammafunk> I assume this is something that you wouldn't want to see
02:11:36 <gammafunk> likewise for the slimy walls above that
02:11:51 <gammafunk> as I recall, those actually changed for slime branch before I changed it and added icy walls
02:12:00 <gammafunk> it was a player_in_branch() thing, so still global game state
02:12:28 <gammafunk> I think I may not need to check this now that cleanup is properly handled, though
02:13:13 <gammafunk> but for slimy walls, that's not really possible since this code is trying to only attempt this rendering step on levels that could have the walls
02:13:22 <gammafunk> so I think previously it had a hard-coded list of branches that could have them
02:13:59 <gammafunk> I just switched it to use the env level state since that's a more accurate way of knowing this
02:17:47 <aidanh> guess we need to store the current level in crawl_view_buffer
02:18:28 <aidanh> in fact i'm reasonably sure that https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tilecell.cc#L506 is what's responsible for 12182
02:18:39 <aidanh> !bug 12182
02:18:40 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12182
02:20:37 <alexjurkiewicz> thanks for the very thorough review aidanh
02:25:25 <aidanh> alexjurkiewicz: no problemo; it's mostly just small documentation issues
02:26:39 <aidanh> gammafunk: right, that's no bueno, accessing anything under env is buggy
02:30:10 <aidanh> the core problem is that the dungeon renderer needs to repack its buffers at arbitrary times (e.g. window resize), which means that it really needs to take a copy of env
02:30:12 <aidanh> it should pass that copy of env to pack_cell_overlays(), then it'd be easy and obviously correct
02:32:09 <aidanh> er, to be precise, DungeonRegion::load_dungeon() should copy the env as well as the vbuf, since it needs both for rendering
02:34:19 <aidanh> alexjurkiewicz: re crawl in docker, what problem would that solve, exactly?
02:34:35 <OICU812> Ok, question.  I am able to see an unseen horror, but I have no SeeInvs per the "%" screen, no SInv muts, or items used.  Might this be bug perhaps?
02:35:34 <aidanh> OICU812: could you upload a save file and send us a link?
02:44:49 <OICU812> https://pastebin.com/t26WpcXb
02:45:05 <OICU812> From all I can tell, I shouldn't be able to see this unseen horror.
02:45:27 <OICU812> I'm on CAO webtiles.
02:46:22 <OICU812> I'd put this on mantis with a screenshot, but I don't know if it's just my own error somehow.
02:48:22 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-443-g80245de
02:52:21 <aidanh> OICU812: your halo is revealing them
02:53:13 <OICU812> Ahhh!  Ok!  Thank you!
02:55:39 <aidanh> no worries :)
03:23:38 <Rotatell> Stable (0.23) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.23.1-93-ge536e68
03:37:04 <Rotatell> Stable (0.22) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.22.1-61-g4f546fd
03:55:40 <Kelbell> Stable (0.18) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.18.1-52-gdd222cab7d
04:01:13 <Rotatell> Stable (0.19) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19.5-3-g47ae8ad
04:13:29 <Rotatell> Stable (0.18) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.18.1-52-gdd222ca
04:18:02 <Kelbell> Stable (0.21) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.21.2-3-g28b50fd9bb
04:27:26 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.25-a0-516-g7d600cd (34)
04:34:25 <Bcadren> I was watching to make sure my fork rebuilds, but; I'm guessing it's going to be very delayed by rebuilding all the old stables with the security patch. >_>
04:34:25 <Sequell> Bcadren: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
04:41:12 <Kelbell> Stable (0.22) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-61-g4f546fdb5a
05:05:22 <Kelbell> Stable (0.23) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23.1-93-ge536e68a2c
05:22:07 <alexjurkiewicz> aidanh: the big problem crawl in docker would solve is c++x20. IOW, it would let every webtiles server run the same crawl binary
05:29:06 <aidanh> would probably help a lot, but I suspect that you might run into kernel incompatibility issues
05:29:06 <Sequell> aidanh: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
05:29:10 <aidanh> !messages
05:29:10 <Sequell> (1/2) Bcadren said (52m 20s ago): I'd since gotten the current version to work (I cherrypicked forward from Oct 20 to right at December first (stalling at positional magic to make decisions as to what my fork wants to do with that))...something in there eliminated the conflict.
05:29:17 <aidanh> !messages
05:29:18 <Sequell> (1/1) Bcadren said (47m 58s ago): turning on all those new warnings revealed a bunch more for me to look into; including one that's possibly showing that Invocations Enhancers don't work properly with Disaster Area...unsure hah.
05:29:33 <Kelbell> Stable (0.24) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24.0-125-gc4c63601f3
05:53:32 <Kelbell> Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-2961-g3345d5eee1
05:55:09 <Bcadren> Well there's Bhauth's shouldn't be too long now *crosses fingers* (No reason to think it shouldn't compile, working fine on local; but...)
06:18:13 <Kelbell> Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-2210-g663b60f069
06:19:09 <Bcadren> YUS. kk; just making sure since it failed last night. night night.
09:05:37 <aidanh> advil: btw, re py2019, might be a good idea to add `from __future__ import absolute_import`
10:33:37 <advil> seems reasonable
10:33:42 <advil> did you otherwise look at that code?
10:33:52 <advil> hm, I really  think I need to find a way to beta this on cao at some point
10:34:16 <advil> cao constantly trips the blocking timeout that this branch removed
10:39:33 <aidanh> it mostly looks fine
10:39:39 <aidanh> i remember seeing a funky regex in there
10:41:20 <aidanh> oh yes, [0-9abcdef] instead of [0-9a-f]
10:48:17 <advil> well, that's fixable
10:50:13 <advil> otoh maybe I agonize too much about these things and (at a point where I have the energy) should just merge this and deal with the fallout :D
10:52:02 <aidanh> that's what rollbacks are for, right? :)
10:52:44 <advil> most setups will have to manually restart the webtiles server to get these changes anyways
11:13:24 <aidanh> true, so any fireworks wouldn't all go off at once, so to speak
11:24:11 <Lantell> Stable (0.23) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23.1-93-ge536e68a2c
12:39:19 <Cheibriados> monspeak.txt malformed entry 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12201 by damerell
14:14:53 <PleasingFungus> I've been thinking more about the proposed Potion of Camouflage. As currently specified (see https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/camo ), it replaces !agi, doubles your stealth and gives you bonus stab damage.
14:14:53 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:15:47 <PleasingFungus> !tell ebering yeah, i was actually thinking of the same thing wrt merging !might/!brill into !sludge!
14:15:47 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let ebering know.
14:16:00 <PleasingFungus> (more about that later tho)
14:16:41 <PleasingFungus> I can see three scenarios where players might want to use !camouflage.
14:16:41 <PleasingFungus> In the first scenario, they're running away and want monsters to forget about them sooner. That's fine but not very exciting.
14:16:56 <PleasingFungus> In the second scenario, they're trying to sneak up on a monster and want the bonus stealth. That's ok if it works but feels absolutely awful if it fails - feels like a waste of a potion. Terrible playerfeel.
14:18:51 <PleasingFungus> In the third scenario, they're trying to stab one or more distracted monsters and want a bonus to that. (Probably multiples - e.g. a herd of yaks that's about to get blinded, or somesuch.) That seems fine?
14:19:01 <PleasingFungus> Even fun - 'wow, look at how i chopped through those guys!'
14:20:08 <PleasingFungus> So, my thought is that I should refocus the potion on that stabbing side of things - remove the stealth bonus entirely, call it something like !stab or !betrayal, switch from a stab damage bonus to something meatier, like a dramatic increase in stab chance or a stab type upgrade.
14:20:23 <PleasingFungus> That seems like it might be a fun item to use, and probably not 'broken', either.
14:20:31 <PleasingFungus> Any thoughts?
14:20:32 <|amethyst> sounds kinda like !invis
14:20:38 <PleasingFungus> yes, it's definitely an overlap with !invis either way
14:21:22 <PleasingFungus> sort of a 'lesser invis', in the same way that might is 'lesser zerk', but again somewhat different - works against sinv enemies, doesn't provide any sort of evasion or inherently let you stab
14:21:37 <|amethyst> yeah
14:22:07 <PleasingFungus> i have mixed feelings about it... it feels like it has enough space to be interesting in its own right (rather than "do i use invis A or invis B?"), but I'm not sure
14:22:21 <|amethyst> could make it a temp version of the assboots (asshat?) effect
14:22:35 <PleasingFungus> ??boots of the assassin
14:22:36 <Sequell> boots of the assassin[1/2]: +2 boots of the Assassin {DetectMon Stab+ Stlth++}. Detects monsters and lets you stab with ANY weapon as if it were a short blade.
14:22:37 <|amethyst> "you get to stab even though you're using a non-sblade"
14:22:55 <PleasingFungus> hm. that would make it useful for many more characters, but that's sort of the opposite of what i want... i like that it's more narrowly useful
14:23:04 <|amethyst> hm
14:23:11 <PleasingFungus> inventory burden, etc
14:23:20 <PleasingFungus> (decision burden, really, for which inventory burden is mostly a proxy)
14:24:33 <PleasingFungus> of course characters that have invested in blinding needles (whatever they're called - atropa?), evocations, or similar effects could also use this
14:25:06 <PleasingFungus> not sure if that's good or bad
14:25:53 <PleasingFungus> the thing with the assboots (asshat?) effect is that it makes a lot more sense as an equipment effect than as a temporary potion. it affects your choice of weapon, which feels like a longer term choice... does that make sense toyou?
14:26:10 <PleasingFungus> very awkward to carry around and skill for a big weapon specifically so that you can stab with it when you drink this potion
14:26:11 <|amethyst> yeah
14:26:29 <PleasingFungus> i do like the ass but i think it's better on your face for now.
14:26:39 <PleasingFungus> rather than in your mouth.
14:26:42 <|amethyst> my thought was, you have a non-stabber and suddenly get much better at stabbing
14:27:27 <|amethyst> if you find yourself in a situation where "you know, it would be great to stab these things"
14:27:28 <|amethyst> but, yeah, a stabber using it has that perverse incentive
14:27:33 <PleasingFungus> enemies are coincidentally confused by meph cloud from an orc wizard or something like that?
14:27:38 <PleasingFungus> er
14:27:40 <PleasingFungus> not an orc wizard
14:27:42 <PleasingFungus> but you know what i mean
14:28:02 <PleasingFungus> incidental stabbing opportunities that you could maximize
14:28:05 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  or ally distraction, or !invis
14:28:09 <PleasingFungus> i mean, this potion still helps with that
14:28:12 <|amethyst> yeah
15:03:25 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: did you settle on a final effect for the potion, then? Stab chance alone is pretty much covered by something like wand of para, but I guess if this potion is unconditional, that's different
15:05:12 <PleasingFungus> oh, i was midway through writing the commit when i had to feed the dog
15:05:15 <PleasingFungus> let me finish up
15:05:30 <gammafunk> I suppose it might need both stab chance and category to be good enough
15:05:32 <gammafunk> ok
15:05:53 <gammafunk> gotta keep the gnolls well fed
15:06:00 <Yermak> PF, on !camouflage stab bonus: if you disregard stabber players who doesn't put enough skills into stab multiplier, and disregard stabbing distracted/confused enemies, stab bonus is still relevant when you want to stab meaty uniques like Nikola or pan/hell bosses.
15:07:27 <PleasingFungus> stab bonus damage, bonus chance...?
15:07:54 <Yermak> > doubles your stealth and gives you bonus stab damage.
15:08:35 <PleasingFungus> engine in discord was arguing fiercely against the utility of bonus stab damage
15:09:27 <Yermak> On double stealth: it's fine if sometimes monsters wake up and effect is wasted. It is not "not very exciting". Stabber players should be used to this kind of situation.
15:10:35 <Yermak> When Dith was added, I was really excited by how effective his aura was.
15:10:35 <PleasingFungus> normally you aren't using consumables for that effect, though, i'd think
15:10:39 <PleasingFungus> normally it's spells, needles (sort of consumable but often re-usable), god powers
15:10:51 <Yermak> I used my !agi potions for that reason exclusively for that reason when I played spriggans.
15:12:36 <Yermak> Though giving you enhanced chance to stab is fine, too.
15:12:56 <Yermak> Just don't make it 100% like on OP spriggan's knife.
15:14:21 <PleasingFungus> ha
15:21:43 <Lantell> Stable (0.20) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20.1-4-g4af34eaf8e
15:51:26 <Cheibriados> New branch created: potstab (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/potstab
15:51:26 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07[potstab] * 0.25-a0-517-g13ca09f: Potion of agility -> stabbing 10(5 days ago, 27 files, 86+ 60-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/13ca09ffe730
15:53:24 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: ^
16:02:29 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: the 50% probably helps it specifically be good with distraction stabs where you tend to get multiple attempts as opposed to the focused 'big' stabs on a single target where you need the stab to Just Work
16:02:33 <gammafunk> that's probably good, since there are already ways to help with those latter stabs
16:03:20 <PleasingFungus> it was actually 100% until yermak told me to absolutely not make it 100%
16:03:28 <PleasingFungus> glad that 50% sounds better :)
16:04:06 <gammafunk> use this where you're probably going to get a few tries at a lower-quality stab or a few different lower-quality stabs to make the ones you get better
16:05:03 <gammafunk> maybe 100% would end up being more fun since it'd be relevant more, but if you want a sort of invis-light, I guess you don't want it to be too strong
16:05:15 <gammafunk> also means people will feel less guilty about not carrying it around
16:05:40 <Yermak> Ru worshipers absolutely can stab: Ru blinds and paralyzes monsters.
16:06:28 <gammafunk> they can, yeah, although with 0 stealth they'll have not great stab damage; I guess with this potion they'll get more damage
16:06:28 <kate-> if you're carrying !invis around (which you probably should) then you may as well also carry this too though, right?
16:06:54 <gammafunk> yeah, it does enhance invis stabs when the monster is awake, right?
16:07:09 <gammafunk> those are actual stabs, aren't they?
16:07:15 <Yermak> yes
16:08:00 <gammafunk> I confess I don't know what your stab damage would look like with a non-shortblade weapon and only starting stealth + invis bonus
16:08:04 <gammafunk> along with this potion, I mean
16:08:26 <gammafunk> I suppose any damage increase it worth having though
16:08:32 <Yermak> PF, what happens if you're wielding spriggan's knife? Will 50% override 100%? Same question for a character with really high Dex, who has natural chance to stab >50%.
16:08:50 <PleasingFungus> it only helps
16:08:57 <PleasingFungus> spriggan's knife overrides this entirely
16:09:09 <PleasingFungus> the dex chance is checked after the chance to upgrade
16:09:18 <Yermak> like does it work like an additional coinflip?
16:09:44 <gammafunk> it's an entirely independed upgrade, yes
16:09:49 <gammafunk> done along with spriggan's knife
16:10:00 <PleasingFungus> relevant code is https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/13ca09ffe730f789bb826db5aaef4d603b525edd#diff-d17ba7ed571cabe4450af18f96ef0c43R1801
16:10:10 <gammafunk> and the knife always performs this upgrade; the potion does so (in absence of the knife) 50% of time
16:10:11 <Yermak> ahh, yeah, I found it.
16:10:22 <PleasingFungus> i'm more worried that it's too strong than too weak... could adjust the duration a bit if needed
16:10:29 <PleasingFungus> idk tho
16:11:08 <gammafunk> yeah, I was commenting on what kate said about "you have !invis since that's so good, and this just makes that stronger, so you want this too"
16:11:15 <gammafunk> not saying it was too weak
16:11:34 <gammafunk> but I was musing as to whether it's actually enough of a bonus to invis that you'd actually want to always have it
16:11:37 <PleasingFungus> i mean, i'd think there would be some " casters " who would carry invis but not this
16:11:43 <PleasingFungus> maybe that's off-base tho
16:13:16 <gammafunk> a two-beam gimp archmage might not want to waste time with melee at all while invis, yeah
16:13:16 <PleasingFungus> right now i'm more interested in making it interesting (strong enough to be notable and entertaining, weak enough to not trivialize everything) than reducing inventory load... i think inventory load is a good goal but not primary
16:13:16 <PleasingFungus> also !sludge should help with that
16:13:29 <PleasingFungus> (by sludge i mean ebering's proposed merger of brill and might)
16:13:44 <gammafunk> I'm going to have a word with him about that potion name...
16:13:54 <PleasingFungus> i mean, he called it !augmentation
16:14:01 <PleasingFungus> but i exist purely for in-jokes and antique references
16:14:13 <gammafunk> fair enough
16:14:26 <amalloy> tbh bring back !porridge. that warm runny feeling makes you very strong and smart
16:14:39 <gammafunk> runny porridge....
16:14:44 <Yermak> Offtopic: when Spriggan's Knife was buffed, I thought it just dealt big damage when you managed to land a stab, and it seemed like a great buff to Me. Imagine my shock when I found out you simply killed any distracted enemy with a single touch.
16:15:45 <PleasingFungus> the warm porridge/cold porridge split is going to tear this community apart!
16:16:09 <gammafunk> acid porridge -> porridge jellies
16:16:25 <amalloy> cold porridge sounds more degenerate than frozen pizza
16:16:35 <geekosaur> rename all potions to porridge
16:16:42 <PleasingFungus> +1
16:16:49 <PleasingFungus> porridge of might
16:16:55 <PleasingFungus> porridge of degeneration
16:17:01 <gammafunk> The Royal Porridge
16:17:04 <PleasingFungus> !!!
16:17:07 <PleasingFungus> you have to add potion nutrition back for this, of course
16:17:22 * geekosaur thinks those are more puddings
16:17:32 <amalloy> i wonder how hard a potion=>porridge rename would be. april 1st isn't too far away
16:17:54 <PleasingFungus> not especially
16:17:58 <PleasingFungus> ^ famous last words
16:18:15 <gammafunk> I demand advil's fork that lets you play as any monster
16:18:40 <PleasingFungus> riot!
16:19:37 <amalloy> there was a good post on that theme to /r/dcss a few months ago. best shitpost of 2019 i'm pretty sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/e6ucn4/playing_as_lerny_need_advice/
16:21:03 <Lantell> Stable (0.17) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.17.2-3-ge1a6273f38
16:23:27 <theJollySin> ebering: Instead of making another PR, I have a proposal for a full replacement of Robe of Augmentation:
16:23:28 <theJollySin> https://gist.github.com/theJollySin/aa7cd3465f87162dcd20553f8b860a83
16:23:39 <theJollySin> If you're logged into GitHub, you can comment on the bottom.
16:24:03 <theJollySin> (Anyone else is free to do the same.)
16:24:19 <theJollySin> Also, some of our spellbooks have boring names (Book of Necromancy, Book of Conjurations), I was wondering if we could have somewhat less literal names.
16:24:30 <theJollySin> Necronomicon is more interesting, but still quite clear. Etc.
16:27:08 <gammafunk> probably a bad time to bring up the idea of each spellbook containing one spell
16:29:27 <theJollySin> lol
16:29:27 <theJollySin> I just mean the flavor of the names could use some TLC, that's all.
16:34:50 <ebering> theJollySin: those are starting books; for a new player who has a vague intuition from other fantasy settings the simpler names are easier to navigate
16:34:50 <Sequell> ebering: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:35:08 <theJollySin> Ah, I see.
16:35:09 <theJollySin> Okay
16:35:35 <theJollySin> As least it's purposeful.
16:36:06 <ebering> regarding your proposal; if you want to "replace" augmentation, I'd like to see a replacement that fit in a similar niche. If augmentations' niche is bad and uninteresting then it seems like the best choice is to remove it
16:36:22 <ebering> Your proposal seems to be taking option 2 and then introducing a totally new idea
16:36:34 <ebering> it's easier to think about these things separately
16:36:41 <theJollySin> Oh, yeah.  I would just remove it. That's the idea.
16:37:16 <theJollySin> But we have 6 unrandart robes, and I think game progression might make more sense if our unrandarts were weighted more towards mid-ER dragon scale armors.
16:37:31 <theJollySin> That's spelled out at the start. Though, I am not 100% against lots of robes.
16:38:09 <ebering> I don't follow at all, but also that is orthogonal to whether or not augmentation is a good item.
16:38:46 <theJollySin> Okay, bite-size information.
16:39:23 <theJollySin> I have 11,000 winning morgues. Zero people finished their winning game wearing Robe of Augmentation or Robe of Misfortune.
16:39:35 <theJollySin> I vote we burn them both. An opinion, to be sure.
16:39:37 <Pinkbeast> !lg . mfak -log
16:39:39 <Sequell> 12. damerell, XL27 MfAK, T:97261: https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/damerell/morgue-damerell-20171218-035354.txt
16:40:14 <theJollySin> Wow, nice.
16:40:14 <theJollySin> ALso, fast.
16:40:29 <ebering> theJollySin: the devteam tends to not lean on arguments from data too much.
16:40:40 <ebering> Did you check that in your 11,000 morgues augmentation generated?
16:41:26 <PleasingFungus> are unrands only worthwhile if people win the game wearing them? we have lots of items that we don't expect people to win the game with - many early-game items, like non-ego ring/scale mail, clubs, etc.
16:41:29 <theJollySin> No, I can do that. But... I guess it doesn't matter much. Wait, what arguments do work?
16:43:41 <ebering> Design arguments. "Augmentation is uninteresting because the 2ac and str and dex aren't as worthwhile as archmagi for most robes users"
16:44:03 <ebering> erm
16:44:14 <ebering> by my own criteria that means that augmentation isn't "good"
16:44:40 <ebering> but also augmentation isn't interesting because it doesn't offer a significant change in gameplay for a tradeoff
16:44:43 <PleasingFungus> the argument would be something like "most games have something better show up by the time you find augmentation, so it doesn't present interesting decisions or create excitement"
16:46:15 <kate-> i think it's mainly just kinda boring for an unrand, i've certainly worn it a bunch of times and it's pretty fine in comparison to other robes you would be likely to have i think
16:47:03 <theJollySin> I feel like Augmentation is generally unthrilling. Even if we made all those values +8 instead of +4, it's not significantly interesting compared to some of other uniques that provide interesting tools: Warlock's Mirror or Dark Maul or what-have-you.
16:48:25 <theJollySin> @kate There are 6 unrandart robes. If we remove Aug, when the unrandart robe is generated, you would end up with one of the better, more awesome ones.
16:51:01 <travis-ci> The build passed. (potstab - 13ca09f #12702 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/651219161
16:51:01 <kate-> right, i don't have a problem with removing augmentation particularly
16:51:59 <theJollySin> Also, I have a proposal. Replace Harm on 'Robe of Misfortune' with something people are desparate for: rMut or something. See if we can trick people into wearing that hot mess.
16:55:42 <theJollySin> Because, design-wise, that unrandart robe doesn't serve a function that any number of crappy randarts don't already serve: punishing wear-IDers.
16:58:39 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure the 2018 Misfortune is completely without merit
16:59:21 <Pinkbeast> In an unrelated question, is there a reason why the shop contents in Thunderdome, being fixed, aren't known at the start of the sprint?
16:59:58 <alexjurkiewicz> "potion of stab" best name?
17:01:53 <alexjurkiewicz> theJollySin: fwiw, I saw a lot of 15 runer DEWz that finished wearing robe of augmentation when I went looking (to see what sort of robes are "ideal")
17:02:13 <theJollySin> huh
17:02:14 <kate-> misfortune seems like it doesn't really pull off the extreme upside+extreme downside thing that eg folly/gong/maxwell's do better, i think it's mostly a joke item where the joke no longer works sadly
17:02:14 <Sequell> PTOANNNG!
17:02:19 <kate-> thanks sequell
17:02:37 <theJollySin> Well, I guess I only have so many morgues.  Well... okay.
17:02:52 <alexjurkiewicz> theJollySin: eg https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Torious/morgue-Torious-20200210-164043.txt from a few days ago
17:03:01 <alexjurkiewicz> i think I counted 2 in the last 50 dewz 15-runers
17:04:34 <kate-> (also re: the sprint question, probably just because sprint maps have been pretty unloved for the last n years, they could probably all do with a pretty major pass at this point)
17:04:50 <Pinkbeast> kate-: Huh, if we're feeling keen we'll send a PR
17:06:47 <alexjurkiewicz> advil: sorry, I missed py2019. Would you like me to test it on CPO? Once I can get my big PR merged I'll start a new development branch and pull in/update py2019 with required changes
17:08:53 <PleasingFungus> alexjurkiewicz: known for its sharp taste!
17:09:09 <PleasingFungus> (!stab)
17:10:39 <alexjurkiewicz> you could remove another boring potion to make room for !stab and the other rework you proposed
17:10:42 <alexjurkiewicz> like, !magic
17:10:57 <PleasingFungus> can't believe you want to take all the magic out of the game...
17:14:38 <alexjurkiewicz> rather than combining might and brill, combine brill and magic
17:14:51 <alexjurkiewicz> then it's more niche
17:16:56 <Yermak> Magic is something you drink to prolong the battle, brilliance - to start it.
17:21:44 <theJollySin> @Yermak But, presumably, if we increased the drop rate on the new potion to match the sum of the old too, no one is missing out, right?
17:25:13 <Yermak> Ok, I see where you're pointing to. Situation aren't worse than before and you're also presented an interesting choice.
17:25:49 <theJollySin> Do you want to blow all your potions on starting the fights, or save them for finishing them?
17:26:14 <theJollySin> *I* would pretty much always save things that can be used for emergencies.
17:27:00 <Yermak> Though I bet it'd look like this: spend some mp for free, then actually unleash your buffed spells.
17:27:24 <Yermak> (Unless you're limited in turns)
18:22:59 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.25-a0-516-g7d600cd9ad (34)
18:54:07 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.25-a0-517-gf8b3a32: Adjust floor and overlay tiles for Frozen Ramparts 10(16 minutes ago, 12 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f8b3a3242258
19:00:18 <Yermak> Imo animation for Hailstorm is too slow. It's cool at start but quickly starts to get annoying.
19:06:01 <alexjurkiewicz> I wonder if the animation could be made non-blocking
19:22:49 <Lantell> Stable (0.24) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.24.0-125-gc4c63601f3
19:57:33 <gammafunk> I wonder who that mysterious MobileFungus was
19:57:36 <gammafunk> I guess we'll never know
21:01:21 <aidanh> alexjurkiewicz: what made you reject alpine for crawl-on-docker?
21:03:11 <aidanh> I'm considering alpine chroots as a way to get modern gcc, and it actually seems like it might be doable
21:03:48 <aidanh> I got gcc 9.2 running on wheezy (!) in an alpine chroot
21:07:13 <aidanh> obviously it's not an immediate solution; servers build outside the chroot, so thatll have to be changed, maybe by adding a dedicated build chroot? and a lot of files that are copied in should probably be bind mounted in instead
21:42:14 <Kelbell> Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.25-a0-517-gf8b3a32422 (34)
21:57:59 <alexjurkiewicz> aidanh: needing to patch out backtrace support. Seemed bad in terms of bug reports
21:59:09 <alexjurkiewicz> The final build was much smaller though. But using distroless container and copying only required files as part of a multi-stage build would be almost identical
22:02:02 <Pinkbeast> !learn del mtputty
22:02:02 <Sequell> Deleted mtputty[1/1]: A wrapper for PuTTY/KiTTY that allows you create connections in tabs rather than separate windows. http://www.ttyplus.com/multi-tabbed-putty/
22:02:35 <Pinkbeast> (last updated 2012; since it's a wrapper it _might_ not have any horrible security holes, but...)
22:19:22 <Lantell> Stable (0.16) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.16.2-14-gc338ae411c
22:44:37 <gammafunk> aidanh: do you have a recommendation for tilecell.cc:511 and :522?
22:45:06 <gammafunk> you mentioned that depending on env (env.level_state in this case) is buggy; I'm not sure if the rendering "optimization" there is necessary
22:45:48 <gammafunk> for slimy walls we could go back to hard-coding possible slime-wall branches, but for icy walls that's not possible, as it comes from a player spell
22:46:20 <gammafunk> I assume conditioning on player is better than using env; if not, a bunch of those statements need reworking
22:47:35 <gammafunk> if it's not that buggy to check the player object and/or env, we could leave it for now
22:47:47 <aidanh> make env and you copyable, and pass in const references to a cached copy of them, then make player_in_branch() a member function of you
22:48:33 <aidanh> update the cached copies in load_dungeon()
22:49:15 <aidanh> I've already done most of this in a local branch
22:49:20 <gammafunk> oh ok
22:50:00 <aidanh> webtiles may need separate handling (of course)
22:52:12 <aidanh> alexjurkiewicz, ah, that's a pain; unfortunately most distros that can run a modern gcc won't run on kernels as old as cao's
23:02:07 <Cheibriados> Tremostone can't be thrown with shift-direction. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12202 by Yermak
23:03:31 <Yermak> Huh, I'm caster with 12 AC and I took no damage from tremorstone.
23:13:16 <OICU812> ??Kesch
23:13:16 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled Kesch in my learndb.
23:24:55 <PleasingFungus> yermak: https://anydice.com/program/19f58 there's about a 15% chance of taking no damage from a tremorstone at 12 AC, even with both of them hitting you
23:25:25 <Yermak> heh, thx
23:25:51 <OICU812> Quick question, is Sereph a unique panlord in Holy pan?
23:26:53 <OICU812> **found in Holy pan, rather.
23:28:54 <Bcadren> When was this exactly? Is the timestamp server local or GMT? crash-gorgo-20200215-233540.txt 2020-02-15 23:35.40 ? (11:35PM and 40 seconds).
23:37:17 <floraline> i've had to kill a lot of hung gdb instances lately, eight just today
23:37:45 <floraline> i don't know if that sort of thing is more my fault or the code's
23:39:11 <Bcadren> !define gdb?
23:39:43 <floraline> a debugger which attaches to a crashing process to make some kind of report
23:40:33 <floraline> next time i'll see if it tells me which binary, i haven't been checking
23:40:50 <Bcadren> It's the thing that prints the stackframes?
23:40:58 <floraline> oh i guess so yes
23:42:03 <Bcadren> Yea I noticed some of the crash logs said "obtained 40+ stack frames" and the log ends abruptly at like the 16th (not the rest of the stackframes or the bottom half of the log that's usually below stackframes).
23:48:08 <Bcadren> floraline all the ones that are like that are the same bug; I'd put in temporarily spawning a dummy monster for  ? / m to read an XP value from since can't get an XP value from monster info without an actual monster; said monster was immediately deleted. all the ones that cut off abruptly look like someone was tyring to view that data (stack frame
23:48:08 <Bcadren> that it cuts off on is the function that's only used for that dummy monster). I killed it (removed the function) because of that, it was working fine on local; but I guess there's a difference in memory handling that made it not like trying to read a monster that was immediately deleted.
23:49:31 <Bcadren> Basically in game via ? / m giving the same info as @?? ...I'll rework a way to get XP from monster info without spawning an actual monster.