00:05:28 What was the exact aim of this change again? As in, what specific problem was it trying to solve. Wanting to lure monsters away from groups to kill safely on a cleared level? 01:37:55 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.25-a0-290-g4a1327e (34) 01:42:12 Rubinko (L12 NaVM) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (Lair:3) 02:08:41 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.25-a0-290-g4a1327e 02:29:21 Rubinko (L15 NaVM) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (D:13) 02:59:27 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-443-g80245de 03:11:50 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.25-a0-290-g4a1327e (34) 03:30:54 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-2819-gfcecba4d19 03:54:17 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.22.1-1796-g78d51b6916 04:00:29 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:01:55 gammafunk: i wrote a little bit on it in the gdd thread 04:04:25 Gamma, guessing general feeling of unfairness from mutations. Also, how do you play around *rage as a caster? 04:05:26 Also, although i agree 3-rune matters more, you are completely ignoring 15-rune with that answer 04:05:26 gmarks: *rage doesn't trigger unless you do a melee attack, for one; if by 'caster' you mean one who primarily kills monsters with spells, there's your solution 04:05:34 don't melee things too much 04:06:08 but even if you are doing melee, berserk is generally pretty useful and in the fewer situations where it's not desireable to be berserked, you just start to run away 04:06:24 > you may automatically go berserk each time that you hit an enemy in melee or take damage 04:06:25 obviously you do need to consider that you might berserk if you are going to melee, but that's precisely what playing around a bad mutation is 04:06:29 Is this incorrect 04:06:45 in extended you're so overpowered that there's really no hope a bad mutation affecting your ability to win 04:07:02 Not in early extended right after you fight z5 04:07:36 definitely don't agree; after all, mutations don't affect my ability to complete z5 in the first place 04:07:46 No shit 04:08:07 But you get mutated during z5 and then you have to get your 6th rune with *rage 04:08:08 and e.g. abyss and first pan levels are just not that much harder than zot 04:08:23 At that point you're not more op tham your average 5 rune character 04:08:50 at 6th rune you're definitely already overpowered 04:09:03 What 04:09:26 Normal 5 rune + crypt = op? 04:09:26 truthfully though? I don't even get stuck with bad mutations because the game gives you a lot of mutations pots as it is, and I don't waste them be eating a lot of bad utations 04:09:41 sure, you have enough xp to get very strong spells at that point 04:09:46 It's rng though 04:10:19 And i think the issue is that it matters a lot more than most other rng in the game with a higher fail rate 04:10:36 Like i said, i used 9 mut pots to get rid of *tele and ended up with *rage 04:10:42 crawl is full of rng, but you can streak e.g. 20 wins in a row (or even much more than that) because you have the tools you need to control this 04:10:58 Could run the numbers but don't really see a point 04:11:06 Again that's biased towards 3-rune 04:11:34 getting to 3 runes from 0 runes much harder by far than getting from 3 to 15 04:11:49 Yes and 04:12:21 ...and I don't know what you're trying to say by bringing up 15 runes 04:12:41 if you're implying that people lose potential 15 rune games because of bad mutations in a way they could not reasonable control 04:12:49 I would definitely say that this is false 04:12:54 *reasonably 04:13:25 Fair enough 04:13:51 I think the other perspective to loom 04:13:53 Bleh 04:14:45 to back up the conversation to a place were there might be more common ground, you aren't going to get lots of people to agree that there are "game ending" mutations and so you "must" have a way to easilly cure them, but 04:14:50 The other way to look at it is that a small error (or no error at all) against a pre-zot mutator has game changing rng based consequences 04:16:18 or rather, but before I continue that "but", you should should probably accept that bad mutations the concept is one where you might get them with less than perfect play and you should have to play around them 04:16:55 and yeah you might rarely get one even with perfect play; again they are not as bad as a lot of people make them out to be 04:17:27 but keeping that in mind, some way to offer a neat tradeoff where you trade some other thing and get a curing/replacement of a bad mutation, that's a thing we could have more of 04:17:40 it's just that it needs to be some kind of neat tradeoff 04:18:01 and shouldn't just be based on a premise that these mutations simply have to be cured because they "ruin the game" 04:18:28 I'm mostly speaking from the perspective of the "disgruntled old player" stereotype that's oft represented on reddit; haven't decided for myself what I believe the right course of action to be 04:18:35 the ways this could be provided could be varied, too; we have a god that cures them, we could have another that controls them more directly 04:19:08 But I think it would be an interesting idea to explore 04:20:33 Especially in the one-off version I proposed which seems like it's not just wholly trivializing mutations 04:20:40 what we absolutely don't want is just a free-for-all for getting rid of or effectively nerfing the mutations that any char can do easilly, like what we had with e.g. purple chunks 04:21:15 honestly we still basically have it with mutation potions, since it's extremely easy to manage those in practice so that you can cure any you might get 04:21:35 I want to do the math now 04:21:54 !muts often work but I've had a few times where they absolutely screw me 04:22:28 yeah you could get just extremely bad luck with the potions, but we're ok with that; again every single bad mutation can just be lived with and played around 04:22:42 it's certainly a bit of a wild ride clearing z5 with teleportitis but it's extremely doable 11:25:01 Stable (0.23) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23.1-91-gf373564dc4 11:48:59 oof 4am mutation debates 11:49:08 gmarks: aren't you in EST? go to bed 11:49:18 or I guess be awake now that it's daytime 11:49:45 😳 11:50:24 well, your e-mail address in your git config is hosted on a server in EST so I'm making a leap there 11:53:11 anyhow, my current assessment of mutations is the following: the mutation system has a large state space, but most of the states aren't that interesting in terms of shaping the character (they ammount to "your current playstyle but better"); there are a few very impactful states but the way the mutation system wanders through its states its not that likely to end up in them 11:54:07 most (all except states involving high levels of wild magic or mp wands imo) require malmuts 11:54:38 so the mutation interaction becomes "try to avoid, but if you get one you probably have enough !mut to roll into the uninteresting states" 14:24:09 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:32:55 it's not just the number of interesting states, it's also whether the interesting (bad) ones are so bad that the game is 'unfair' 14:33:46 I do agree that the mutation system isn't all that interesting since most of them have just very little impact on how you play 16:25:28 Thinking more about it, my main gripe with tele and rage is that once you are stuck with them, there's either no good counterplay (rage; you can get zerked any time you get hit) or the counterplay is tedious (tele: spam regen and run upstairs after every fight) 16:25:49 And if you can accept that sometimes you do just get stuck with them, I think that's a problem 16:55:07 gmarks: berserkitis applies when performing melee attacks 16:58:36 the counterplay to berserkitis is to not perform melee attacks in situations where berserk would be fatal: engage in small groups 16:58:57 teleportitis is similar, but in a sense the dual: don't let a fight consume so much of your resources that you'd die if you got dropped into the middle of a different fight 17:00:37 in both cases you need to disengage if a fight is headed in the wrong direction, or else risk serious consequences 17:15:43 "disengage" is not a reliable strategy for *tele 17:15:44 And is my information wrong that *rage triggers on getting hit? 17:17:48 Oh it looks like that is wrong, looking at the sourcr 17:18:00 source* 17:19:34 disengaging isn't as reliable a strategy at earlier portions of the game when you have few resources 17:19:59 it very much is at later portions of the game, especially when you're talking about e.g. zot:5 and orbs of fire and the like 17:21:28 I've not died to teleportitis in all my games, having over 100 wins. Not even in a way that could be attributed to error on my part 17:22:03 let alone in some "unavoidable death" scenario 17:22:47 the argument about tediousness could be a valid one, although I don't find the mutation to be particularly tedious, just relatively impactful compared to other bad mutations (that do basically nothing) 17:23:00 we do want to have bad mutations that are impactful 17:23:10 at least as long as we have the mutation system we have now 17:44:07 I think that there are bad mutations that are impactful in a "good" way, such as blurry vision. I just think that at least *tele (*rage seems fine to me now if it's only on attack) is impactful in a tedious way. 18:23:02 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.25-a0-290-g4a1327ee3a (34) 20:55:45 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 21:16:56 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 21:48:12 ziggurnaut (L15 DrCj) Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated (D:14) 22:18:20 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_