00:02:26 finally, travis is doing the same thing as my (still fairly limited) tests locally 00:03:42 !!! 00:03:44 hurrah 00:04:12 yew 00:04:37 with release coming soon: we need a title 00:05:05 "The Greatest Show in Zot" 00:05:18 might be too silly 00:05:31 I'm not sure "too silly" is usually a concern 00:05:36 :) 00:05:40 we've tried to have a reference to the big new features 00:05:46 traps, gauntlet 00:06:04 advil may have snuck in a 3rd release highlight 00:06:18 although you could collect the unrand changes into one if you wanted too 00:06:48 that's another (small) thing to decide: the changelog release highlights 00:06:50 obviously gauntlet and traps should go on there 00:07:15 klowns for sure 00:07:22 I don't think so 00:07:28 just a change of one monster 00:07:58 oh, nem rework 00:08:01 yes 00:08:22 wait 00:08:31 might consider that borderline, but we've included big god reworks in the past and that seems appropriate enough 00:08:33 what if we called the release "the last deck of nemelex xobeh" 00:08:46 it's hard to make one title that references several 00:08:51 but we could at least try to reference two 00:09:26 but there are no rules about release names, especially seeing as how we just forget to make them until the last minute half the time 00:09:37 and no one ever remembers them 00:14:21 I remember Squaring the Circle 00:16:15 I had to remind myself about "Ghost in the Cell" 00:24:42 https://crawl.develz.org/tournament/0.23/overview.html 00:24:49 basic test of CDO is working ok so far 00:25:19 but there's a bit more things to clean up and check before we're ready to commit to that and announce 00:29:32 <|amethyst> Minotaur Needs Decks Badly 00:30:00 <|amethyst> something something Decked Out 00:32:15 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902 (34) 00:32:33 <|amethyst> Nemelex Needs Traps Badly would hit three things 00:34:55 dang 00:35:14 that's pretty epic 00:37:38 My only request is that we reference at least one release highlight 00:38:07 I wonder if people would get that "needs FOO badly" is a reference to the Gauntlet message 00:38:19 that's probably a function of age 00:38:43 <|amethyst> Me? Obscurantist? 00:38:47 <|amethyst> perish the thought! 00:40:29 <|amethyst> So for the class I teach we have an electronics kit that students get for the semester, and a couple of tablets with ID card scanners that we use to keep track of who has a kit, to make sure they're returned at the end of the semester 00:40:49 <|amethyst> The passcode to unlock the tablets is 123456 00:41:32 <|amethyst> I was explaining this to my TAs, and told them "I've got the same combination on my luggage" 00:41:36 <|amethyst> no one got it 00:41:47 <|amethyst> I felt old 00:48:21 if it makes you feel worse, I just had to look up both of those references 00:48:26 <|amethyst> heh 01:28:09 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902 (34) 01:58:51 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902 02:59:51 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902 08:51:44 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 12:27:04 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902 (34) 13:17:32 Stable (0.23) branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-b1-0-ga39c873 13:35:03 Webtiles server restarted. 13:35:15 cotteux (L20 GrBe) (Vaults:4) 13:40:59 0.23 should be up and running on CXC now 13:50:00 Medar: great, thanks 15:49:10 when trying to access CWZ I get: "This site can’t provide a secure connection webzook.net uses an unsupported protocol. ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH" 15:51:26 and after a short while it fixes itself 15:51:26 this happened yesterday as well 16:45:09 NP7: what OS/browser are you using? 16:45:23 ??cwz 16:45:23 cwz[1/7]: Crawl server (webtiles-only) located in Korea; the server admin goes by hong on irc. http://webzook.net:8080/ 16:46:13 hm. the site has no https, it seems. Maybe hong is testing https? 16:47:07 yeah, i think the bigger question is, what url are you using to get to cwz that makes your browser think it should use ssl when cwz disagrees 16:49:49 the main website is accessible over https but it seems pretty normal (TLS1.0 supported) 16:49:49 Once you have a means to stop your hair from stretching, it's quite difficult. There is no way to reduce headaches because of the high base physical strength, and you have to fight with the feeling of being surrounded by your soul. If you are not the chief of the firepower, you will also come out to the magician, but the resistance is even greater than the state, so if you allow the close-up, you will 16:49:49 quickly go to the hook. Since HD is 13, do not try to use the wand of transformation. There is a case of turning into a storm (HD 14) or a ghost moth (HD 13). Or even emperor scorpions ... Sometimes the troll's fingernails (including any nail variants of two or more different tribes, even if they have more than one tier) or blades are also classified as fleas without fingers. 16:50:49 there are so many cool splash screens cwz has 16:51:31 these ones are CC0, they could be included https://webzook.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=webzook_pic&wr_id=6 16:51:53 that's clearly hydra advice, but it's still hard to make sense of some of it 16:52:08 i assume it makes a lot more sense in the original korean 16:54:36 advil: fyi the weekly challenge on cpo is complete. You get one attempt and the winner is tracked 16:55:07 s/winner/top scorer/ 16:55:07 cool 16:55:07 neat 16:55:16 I found some more seed instability in depths, still tracking it down 16:55:19 why limit it to just one attempt? 16:55:51 there might be reasons to go either way but it seems to be how these things are often run, e.g. spelunky dailies, brogue weekend challenges 16:56:06 brogue daily challenges (these are just an informal forum thing) have no reules though 16:58:05 new hypothetically optimal play: create many accounts to practice the weekly challenge 16:59:04 right that's what i was thinking. limiting me to one attempt doesn't stop me from practicing it 17:00:28 yeah. I am not sure about the right approach. Letting people replay it would emphasize the "same dungeon" part 17:00:42 it's a tradeoff. by making it harder to "cheat" you make it more prestigious and exciting, but you can't really stop people from cheating if they want to 17:00:45 like, you'd see with your own eyes that the dungeon is static 17:01:09 I'm not worried about cheating. People can if they want to 17:02:14 I felt the bad part about allowing replays was that people would just focus on weekly challenge to the exclusion of "normal" crawl. But perhaps that isn't really a problem. I mean, challenge isn't tracked 17:02:33 now that seeded is in trunk that's probably easy to change 17:03:55 Is there some way to let people play the mode without writing entries to milestones/logfiles/scores? I guess I could set up a fake directory for them. Then you can allow multiple runs but only the first is scored 17:05:46 ah ok yea I think I needed to use https 17:05:46 I'll remember that in future thanks 17:11:05 NP7: the opposite, i think 17:11:05 cwz doesn't support https, from the look of it 17:15:22 why not write to meta files? 17:15:40 replaying sounds fine to me, you can challenge not only other players but yourself to try and get a better score 17:16:46 i think either way would be nice, but i'm more inclined to say yes to replays since it would be so easy to cheat 17:23:54 and if some players want to play the challenge instead of standard games, i don't think we should stop them. more players having fun makes for a healthy community 17:26:40 ok, i'm convinced 17:29:35 i was looking into how we could reload webtiles config on trunk. i think it's possible but prone to error 17:40:37 the brogue community has weekly seeded challenges 17:40:56 and while there are probably some cheats, it seems to be pretty well go along to get along 17:42:00 they only have one try? 17:46:52 there are certainly some "cheats" in the spelunky daily, of varying degrees. like maybe some people do actual multiple attempts, and some others just hear from others what kind of stuff to look out for before they attempt it 17:47:42 "today's daily is a better seed for score than speed, and the black market is on 2-2" is useful to know but some people might argue less cheaty 17:48:18 the brogue thing has "only one try" in the rules but it's not enforced 17:49:02 there's no equivalent of morgues or anything, so people just post a narrative description on the subreddit 17:49:40 I doubt if too many people are going to lie in that particular way 17:50:05 maybe people will read it before playing even though you're not supposed to, idk 17:53:02 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 18:03:26 if they cheat in any way 18:03:38 if there's even a report of them cheating, even just a rumor 18:03:42 delete their account imo 18:04:30 and remove all records of their games from sequell and CAO scoring 18:04:48 we'll have a well-earned rep as the one true hardcore roguelike 18:07:27 alexjurkiewicz: are you still using the steps that you sent me before for the challenge? 18:08:18 yes, just enhanced now with more functionality 18:08:28 want the latest versions of everything? It's still hacky 18:11:29 i am excited to set it up, but not if it's going to take some tinkering on my end since i need to restart webtiles every time i want to make a change 18:11:47 maybe i should wait until it's a little more defined as a game mode 18:15:44 you never need to restart webtiles. But I haven't managed to automate the new character selection yet 18:15:57 I probably could do this though... I'll ping you when it's cleaner then 18:19:43 i'm on trunk, i need to restart to pick up any changes to the config whether i'm adding a new game or making a tiny tweak to a path or arg 18:20:06 so if i don't get it quite right on the first try i'll have to restart every time i make another tweak 18:20:38 at least i think i need to restart, if there's a way to reload the config that i don't know about i would love to learn it 18:22:43 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.24-a0-7-g1bb0902669 (34) 18:23:48 it's not a big deal it just makes me a little reluctant to start poking around 19:11:47 03ebering02 07* 0.24-a0-8-gbed441b: Dissapate Guardian Golem clouds out of LOS (11701) 10(12 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bed441b55a9d 19:17:23 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-8-gbed441b55a (34) 19:25:26 advil: did you want your most recent rng changes to be trunk-only? 19:36:21 03GenericPseudonym02 {gammafunk} 07[stone_soup-0.23] * 0.23-b1-1-gb382bbe: Quiet confirm_action in the ability menu (11738) 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 13+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b382bbe037f5 19:36:21 03ebering02 {gammafunk} 07[stone_soup-0.23] * 0.23-b1-2-gf398d7c: Dissapate Guardian Golem clouds out of LOS (11701) 10(37 minutes ago, 2 files, 5+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f398d7cfb873 20:02:19 does crawl actually build in webtiles-changes? 20:06:04 -!- ljksf2 is now known as dontgetcocky 20:08:16 it should build, but it's very old 20:08:20 %git webtiles-changes 20:08:20 07Aidan Holm02 * 0.22-a0-600-gedba8dc: Merge branch 'master' into webtiles-changes 10(8 months ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/edba8dc7026a 20:08:30 oh, I guess aidan did a recent merge 20:08:34 but yeah, it should build fine 20:08:52 no idea if webtiles works though 20:09:24 esp merge conflicts with some recent webtiles changes could take some work 20:09:35 if you wanted to merge master or something 20:13:32 gammafunk: I will merge them to 0.23 soon 20:13:32 ok 20:13:32 "soon" 20:13:38 I left them out of my cherry picking just now, so I'll let you do that 20:14:30 I tried to merge webtiles-changes around when I added muting and kind of gave up 20:14:58 yeah, I was thinking about that and floraline's other improvements 20:16:00 er, merge master into webtiles-changes 20:16:24 merging those would require non-trivial modifications to the branch 20:16:49 basically it's continuing to rot; it would be cool if we could merge in some aspects of its configuration management, at least 20:16:54 I just don't have time to do that right now 20:17:13 although even that does have issues; the last thing I worked on for it was rollback upon configuration error 20:17:32 because if you introduce one and tell it to reload its config, what happens? 20:17:48 the configuration is what is attractive to me 20:17:51 but the way I implemented said rollback is probably not too robust 20:18:27 floraline: well, if you'd like a good project, taking a look at how webtiles changes manages its configuration and finding a nice path to get a similar system into webtiles trunk would be useful 20:18:50 it's sort of low priority until someone cares enough or possibily implements something cool on top of it 20:19:24 one of the last things I worked on in that branch was "janitor" asynchronous commands (a project that let me understand said async programming more and led me to create beem) 20:19:43 the idea was that rebuilds would use this, and even better you could bring new experimentals online on the fly 20:19:53 among other things 20:20:36 it would have some interface for choosing a git branch to add to the configuration, stuff like that; sadly there are things like dgl to deal with 20:21:02 so I never quite got to that point and only got a test implementation of a crawl rebuild janitor working 20:21:46 but something much less ambitious like just allowing the server to try to reload a config upon signal, which edlothiol introduced in webtiles-changes orginally, that would be nice 20:22:06 the problem is sort of what to do if the new config is bad; simplest thing is to just shut down the server, of course 20:22:30 i can't help but compare webtiles to nginx, when i need to mess around with nginx config i can reload all day and no ongoing connections are affected 20:22:37 so i can keep tweaking and testing my changes 20:22:40 or you could do something like the rollback I tried to implement, but again not very confident in that implementation 20:23:04 but when i make a change to webtiles i have to have downtime 20:23:25 yeah, the reloading part is actually an initial thing in webtiles-changes that was in the branch very early on, but 20:23:37 it did not have any graceful handling of config errors 20:23:46 not sure what nginx does when you introduce a config error 20:24:09 nginx reloads bad configs very gracefully, it just says there is a problem and silently fails 20:24:18 i don't think ongoing connections are affected and the running config is unchanged 20:24:23 right, so sounds like it's effectively rolling back to the current config? 20:24:29 that's what I was trying to implement 20:24:39 i guess so, or it doesn't make any changes until it verifies your new config 20:24:47 or did implement, but again it's untested and I'm not sure it's the best approach 20:27:00 I think the other problem is that webtiles-changes may not be as stable or may have other subtle bugs; cpo had weird issues from time to time 20:27:15 like that one guy that got some crazy score where it loaded meatspring into his game 20:28:08 and there were some other strange bugs relatively early on in its history after it first came online running that branch 20:29:28 s/meatspring/meatsprint/ 20:37:54 It was only when we did sprint scoring we realised different sprints have hilariously different scores 21:12:27 we never tracked down that meatsprint CPO bug 21:13:11 but amethyst (I think) added some sanity checks to crash the game if it happened again. And as far as I know it didn't happen again anyway 21:14:35 it feels like any changes i propose in trunk will result in webtiles-changes diverging even further 21:14:59 nobody but me uses webtiles-changes, so that's fine 21:15:31 i don't want to contribute to its further rotting if there is still any hope of merging 21:15:37 there are two killer features which stopped me migrating back when I rebuilt CPO late last year: reloading config live, and split config files 21:16:12 well, I think gammafunk said it before and I agree: webtiles-changes is too old and unknown at this point, the way forward is to go back to normal webtiles and improve it incrementally 21:18:21 like webtiles-changes uses a version of react which is 4 years old. Modernising it would probably be quite hard anyway 21:29:20 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 21:40:29 -!- CaptainFruitcake is now known as CanOfWorms 21:41:32 yeah I wouldn't let webtiles-changes stop you from working on webtiles; it's more that we don't have anyone with time+expertise to revamp webtiles, really either for trunk or webtiles-changes 21:42:25 if I had more time I could probably get a number of things in webtiles but someone who knows a lot more about these technologies could do something faster 21:43:52 if you got enough functionality in trunk webtiles, I'm sure even alex would switch back 21:44:22 well maybe not, he is perhaps too much of an IT hipster, but you could tempt him 21:46:57 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 21:51:40 today's exciting seed-related discovery: afaict `crawl.random_element {[a] = 3, [b] = 3, [c] = 1}` and the like isn't safe, because the c++ code has no way of iterating over the table in a determinate way (and in testing the iteration order varies apparently randomly) 21:53:57 hrm, so there's not intrinsic element order for lua arrays? are the "indexed" arrays just keys basically? 21:54:23 well that's not an array, I guess 21:54:25 yeah...if it were an indexed array I could do something 21:54:37 with these cases I haven't even figured out anything to be done 21:55:11 dang 21:55:21 the way crawl.random_element is implemented it will also iterate randomly over an array 21:55:21 gammafunk: I would definitely switch back if the two features I mentioned above were in mainline. They're pretty essential to my auto-update workflows now 21:55:38 that could probably be fixed 21:56:59 splitting out config files is relatively easy; I think the basics of loading the config are likewise not too hard once we move config out of py files 21:57:12 although it may be fine even inside of py files 21:57:23 however how it handles failure is a big concern 21:57:41 this one was fun to find because I had to work backwards from build consequences, i.e. many steps down the line an item couldn't be placed on the first try because layout_twisted_cross had chosen a diamond room instead of a circle room and the target pos was a wall 21:59:42 hrm, that looks like weighted choice 21:59:42 yet I swear I recall using a different lua function than that one 22:00:17 util.random_weighted_from 22:01:03 so I guess that's the clua function 22:01:23 but it's curious that there are two independent implementations of what's probably similar functionality for dlua and clua 22:01:32 hadn't looked at it yet but that one looks iffy too 22:01:56 one of them sorts at least 22:05:00 --- Check if a table contains an item 22:05:00 function util.contains(haystack, needle) 22:05:40 oh that's using an array I think 22:05:52 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 22:09:07 gammafunk: if the loading is just for crawl versions and nothing else that would be sufficient 22:10:26 yeah, that might make ensuring sane handling of errors easier to implement, but it's been a long time since I've looked at the relevant webtiles code 22:11:10 we maybe need to document a wishlist for webtiles along with known issues 22:11:29 sadly I can't commit to working on that in the near term myself, though 22:12:40 I think my rollback was more ambitious, but you still have some data that you have to deep copy 22:13:13 even if you only work with crawl config stuff, I mean 22:29:53 is webtiles compatible with both python 2 and 3? 22:36:03 gammafunk: if the loading is just for crawl versions and nothing else that would be sufficient 22:36:06 oops, sorry 22:38:50 floraline no, because the tornado version is something that won't run in python 3 22:39:24 not sure about the rest of the webtiles code, there's probably not anything that wouldn't be too hard to update 23:00:49 03ebering02 07* 0.24-a0-9-gb30acc4: Prompt before using bad or dangerous consumables (11836) 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 31+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b30acc428711 23:04:35 wow, way to try to force a meta 23:05:08 in fact, i think we need more bad items 23:06:21 truly bad items (degeneration potions) are no-brainers: you don't use them 23:06:47 only because meta-forcing developers like you won't let me 23:06:54 (the game actually doesn't let you chug more than one :( ) 23:07:36 i thought crawl was all about letting the player kill themselves 23:08:01 "No spoilers" trumps that, presumably. 23:09:12 I think you're talking about nethack 23:10:19 03ebering02 07[stone_soup-0.23] * 0.23-b1-3-gdda8187: Prompt before using bad or dangerous consumables (11836) 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 31+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dda8187c6f0d 23:11:44 IMO the dangerous consumables are in a bad place, where they are bad 95% of the time but have some obscure good corner case 23:12:01 like how you want to use !lig in the first couple of levels or tomb:3 23:12:17 you might want to use lig 23:13:21 lig+torment is a passable combo 23:13:38 vuln is probably useful in some cases 23:13:41 immo is hilarious 23:13:47 alexjurkiewicz: Tree pots could tell you about the torment immunity in their description. (If they do in trunk, sorry). 23:14:54 I think if the consumables become good in a wider variety of situations, that would be better item design 23:15:14 well, i think immo is good in a lot of cases, there are just very few that strictly require it 23:15:39 and thus it isn't used randomly because... you don't really need to 23:16:28 i remember, as a new player playing mibe, keeping noise scrolls so i could attract the floor to me so i wouldn't have to look for them 23:16:32 It may be because I'm bad, but I use tree pots more than "the first couple of levels". (I don't disagree re "wider variety of situations", I'm just saying right now the torment immunity is a bit spoilery) 23:16:39 if noise scrolls were more like a mark they would probably be useful in that way 23:16:53 I use noise in the same way, or when it woul be dangerous to walk forwards and lure 23:17:47 <|amethyst> I've often used !lig when fighting bees 23:18:20 bees are also a very efficient way to unintentionally kill yourself with immo scrolls 23:18:58 Mmm. Or if I get cornered (because I'm bad), a tree and an ambrosia usually results in getting a lump of HP and MP refill - and it's particularly handy if random movement could make things worse, because now I can flail away during the confuse. 23:19:07 Pinkbeast: the item description doesn't mention the details, but the form description for Tree form has the full information 23:19:37 i imagine most people, when they use it for the first time, will check what horrible thing just happened to them 23:19:44 ebering: I grant the latter part of this is so but I submit the item description would be an obvious place to put it 23:20:07 <|amethyst> yeah, it's a lot easier to find item help than form help 23:20:12 <|amethyst> s/help/descriptions/g 23:20:32 switch__: I can't speak for most people but I certainly didn't. 23:20:37 <|amethyst> alternatively, a link from the item description to the form description, and likewise for transformation spells 23:20:57 <|amethyst> but that would require some UI changes 23:20:57 <|amethyst> and is kind of special-casey 23:21:11 (i think there are a lot of things in crawl that require reading/intentionally seeking out the rules, and that's presently unavoidable) 23:25:47 03ebering02 07* 0.24-a0-10-gb84795d: Describe tree form in potion of lignification (damerell) 10(50 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b84795dc94a1 23:26:00 you can look at pantone swatches all day 23:26:00 or you can paint the bikeshed with white 23:26:27 Thanks 23:33:46 !vault ossuary_zaba_flooded 23:33:47 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ossuary.des#L635 23:34:02 lol 23:34:21 I wonder if the use of x,y in mapgrd[x][y] later in this is really what's intended? it's just the leftover variables from the for loop 23:35:24 oh maybe it's not 23:35:40 I missed the wrapping function there 23:35:45 i'm not 100% sure but i think that's called seperately 23:35:46 yeah 23:36:01 also, what are w and W there? 23:36:14 deep and shallow water 23:36:17 respectively, probably 23:36:37 since I see mapgrd 23:36:46 those are the default glyph mappings of those glyphs in DES 23:36:47 well they aren't strings 23:36:58 sorry? 23:37:10 oh, yes those are strings 23:37:19 its lua syntax for table keys 23:37:24 it implicitly makes them strings 23:37:29 really? 23:37:32 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-9-gb30acc4287 (34) 23:37:38 I don't have a reference link, but if you google lua table 23:37:38 that's almost as good as 1 indexing 23:37:44 haha 23:38:27 I recall PF learning that variables are default global scope in lua 23:38:39 he said "Then why would anyone ever program in lua?!" 23:38:52 do you know if x and c are treated as strings or as variables there? 23:38:57 they are strings 23:39:01 also glyphs 23:39:06 rock and stone walls, respectively 23:39:57 https://www.lua.org/pil/3.6.html 23:40:00 is it the missing [] that disambiguates? 23:40:36 Those two constructor forms have their limitations. For instance, you cannot initialize fields with negative indices, or with string indices that are not proper identifiers. For such needs, there is another, more general, format. In this format, we explicitly write the index to be initialized as an expression, between square brackets: 23:40:50 I might choose not to use this "feature" 23:41:08 yeah, maybe so, but it's probably used a bunch 23:41:22 and we would need something to warn people about it, I guess? 23:42:07 we could call it enbracket 23:47:14 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.24-a0-10-gb84795dc94 (34)