00:19:27 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-494-g91793a9 (34) 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-495-g1550063: Remove deck rarity types 10(2 days ago, 13 files, 107+ 328-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1550063af414 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-496-g356b36b: Remove decks as items 10(2 days ago, 30 files, 80+ 1724-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/356b36b4f51a 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-497-gaf9a5ec: Abstract decks to a player property 10(2 days ago, 3 files, 61+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/af9a5ec8d3b6 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-498-g0b44373: A deck choosing menu 10(2 days ago, 5 files, 161+ 82-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b443733e002 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-499-g55a245a: New Nemelex Draw One ability 10(35 hours ago, 6 files, 58+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/55a245ae605a 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-500-g3a2ac27: New Nemelex Deal Four ability 10(30 hours ago, 2 files, 36+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a2ac27c028d 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-501-g2ca925c: New Nemelex Triple Draw ability 10(27 hours ago, 3 files, 87+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ca925c5c8e3 01:10:39 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/916 * 0.23-a0-502-gbd6a8b6: New Nemelex Stack five 10(26 hours ago, 5 files, 141+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd6a8b6e18f7 01:20:26 !seen dpeg 01:20:26 I last saw dpeg at Sat Jan 13 21:15:07 2018 UTC (46w 1d 9h 5m 18s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Lost terminal'. 01:27:58 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-494-g91793a9 (34) 01:35:00 !lg edsrzf 01:35:01 4546. edsrzf the Sneak (L2 OpEn), slain by a goblin on D:1 on 2018-12-02 07:07:05, with 7 points after 47 turns and 0:00:26. 01:58:48 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-494-g91793a9 02:59:40 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-494-g91793a9 03:52:40 Experimental (known-traps) branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-451-g642b27e9ef 04:50:21 ebering: I didn't realize that your branch removed random zot trap effects; I thought you had only done this for teleportation traps. I think removing the effect for teleportation traps makes more sense as a random teleport has such a high rate of doing nothing 04:50:59 ebering: but zot traps are more or lessed designed to do a pretty bad thing. dispersal traps wouldn't really make sense as a random effect, but zot traps certainly do 04:52:08 !tell ebering I didn't realize that your branch removed random zot trap effects; I thought you had only done this for teleportation traps. I think removing the effect for teleportation traps makes more sense as a random teleport has such a high rate of doing nothing 04:52:08 gammafunk: OK, I'll let ebering know. 04:52:18 !tell ebering but zot traps are more or lessed designed to do a pretty bad thing. dispersal traps wouldn't really make sense as a random effect, but zot traps certainly do 04:52:19 gammafunk: OK, I'll let ebering know. 10:01:31 !messages 10:01:31 (1/2) gammafunk said (5h 9m 25s ago): I didn't realize that your branch removed random zot trap effects; I thought you had only done this for teleportation traps. I think removing the effect for teleportation traps makes more sense as a random teleport has such a high rate of doing nothing 10:01:54 !messages 10:01:54 (1/1) gammafunk said (5h 9m 18s ago): but zot traps are more or lessed designed to do a pretty bad thing. dispersal traps wouldn't really make sense as a random effect, but zot traps certainly do 10:27:14 !tell gammafunk are you suggesting adding random explore zot-effects? I left them out because zot effects are so varied: out of combat they can just be a "press 5 and continue" effect. 10:27:15 ebering: OK, I'll let gammafunk know. 10:28:52 !tell gammafunk I could see including an explore based zot effect if its effect list was tuned to be relevant in and out of combat 10:28:52 ebering: OK, I'll let gammafunk know. 12:05:26 -!- Amnesiac_ is now known as Amnesiac 12:17:10 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.23-a0-494-g91793a9 (34) 12:38:46 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 13:36:25 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 18:16:21 -!- THE_GIAGGOSTUONO is now known as eb 18:20:56 Webtiles UI sometimes bugs and doesn't show the current situation 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11776 by ThreeInvisibleDucks 18:55:31 ebering: I think the problem with doing nothing a significant portion of the time also extends to alarm traps and it's a problem you can't fully solve. It's my experience that frequently alarm traps go off with no monsters around and there's nothing around with nothing at all or of any significance reaching you 18:56:25 ebering: it's possible to improve zot traps, but what you're doing by remove those zot effects is like what you'd be doing if you removed alarm trap effects: removing the nasty situations that happen maybe 20% of the time or so 18:57:37 alarm traps could silently fail to activate if there are no monsters nearby 18:57:48 s/and there's nothing around// 19:01:47 the fewer existing trap types we keep around but relegate to a status where they only exist in vaults or as tiles players forget to lure monsters away from the better 19:02:22 at least dispersal traps have a thing where the player might intentionally lure monsters back over to them sometimes in theory 19:06:16 Yeah I suppose you could have trap effects that refuse to trigger if a hostile monster is not in view or in some radius, but I'm not sure this is a good approach 19:11:25 ebering: also it occurred to me that you could salvage the idea of teleport traps by having it trigger a teleportitis effect. For non-permanent ones they could work that way, but permanent ones could be random. It would be like giving everyone really infrequent teleportitis, but that's what old teleport traps were essentially doing (just in a more roundabout way where a relevant teleport that landed 19:11:31 near monsters happened only 1 in N times). 19:16:22 Teleportitis-effect as a random trap effect would work. I discounted it in the initial run through because I thought it would tele randomly if there were no monsters but it looks like it cancells if it won't do anything intereesting 19:29:25 I hear what you're saying about the effect of removing random zot-trappings, I just disagree that the loss is that significant. Unlike alarm, shaft, and teleportitis, which occasionally fail to create a tense situation, the current zot trap is much less successful. 19:52:01 ebering: zot traps have effects like banishment, shadow creatures, convoking, durably summoned demons, so it's not really that there aren't sufficiently good effects; your argument is that these are too seldolmy relevant, but your branch essentially relegates them to vaults 19:52:22 or to put it another way, if zot traps aren't that successful as random effects because of infrequency of the good ones 19:52:50 how often do you think they're going to be relevant as revealed traps that the player has to forget about in order for them to even trigger 19:53:38 what you're sort of saying is that zot traps might as well be removed in their current form, which is a valid thing to do, to be clear 19:54:01 but I don't think their relevance is helped by removing their random activation 20:01:42 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 20:02:29 I'm exactly saying that zot traps in their current form might as well be removed outside of their apperances in vaults 20:03:05 One sec, I'm making a flowchart of the zot trap effect chooser so I can have a clear picture, instead of basing it on my memories of random triggerings 20:03:16 It may be that I was just lucky 20:04:32 right, so that's not a great design for a trap effect since the player isn't going to understand what the effect is and unlike dispersal traps has no reason to try to interact with them 20:04:58 yeah, there are a good number of out-of-combat effects like twister summoning, eldritch tentacle summoning (that's sort of in-between) 20:05:05 but there are certainly a number of things you can rest off 20:05:17 some like lots of glow are more in-between since you can get a mutation 20:05:28 sometimes it will jsut malmutate you outright 20:05:31 or delete a mutation 20:05:41 also drain and stat drain are possibilities 20:05:41 yeah maybe tmut miscast can do that 20:06:09 the way it's implemented in miscast effect though is that it's just its own set of rolls 20:06:37 well I think it can also do random school miscast effects? 20:06:54 so different effects might come through multiple routes 20:07:30 !source MiscastEffect::_zot() 20:07:32 Can't find MiscastEffect::_zot(). 20:07:44 :< 20:08:02 I'm not really sure how to more fully avoid the "rest this off" thing and I don't have a precise feel for the dist of effects that are like that; feels like it's a 50% of the time thing maybe 20:08:30 http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~ebering/crawl/zotrap.png 20:08:34 here's the flowchaart 20:09:08 awesome 20:09:12 graphviz!! 20:09:22 wait theres some wrong weights on those edges 20:09:51 also a lot (most?) effects are just not suitable for low XL characters 20:11:46 well looking at them my "50%" assessment was not too far off 20:11:57 if you count all summons as relevant, all damage as irrelevant 20:12:11 and maybe 5/13 of the misc effects are relevant out of combat 20:12:46 oh, wait 20:12:46 1/4, 1/4, 1/4 20:13:01 yeah something is off with the top categories since there are three with 1/4 chance each 20:13:12 yes 20:13:15 refresh 20:13:26 I've added some color coding to the leaves 20:13:55 blue for restable/walk-awayable, red for "this is spooky now" and purple for strategic 20:14:11 the one where you might teleport while confused or slowed is not clored because its hard to count 20:16:56 ah yeah, doesn't really change my assessment, since I guess I was already counting misc as 1/2 20:17:36 yeah honestly it looks pretty good for out of combat effects, maybe above 50% now 20:18:06 oh and even "explore" has summon twister 20:18:21 the summons are a bit borderline of course, you can just run from many of them, but it's certainly no case of just hit 5 where you stand 20:18:31 s/explore/explode/ 20:18:44 yeah, I count summons as "interesting fight" 20:34:31 Tallying it up: https://gist.github.com/ebering/9c91e71b98c77d6479b5875eb382c671 20:39:03 a way to make hex needle success rate not show. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11777 by gishou 20:39:27 yeah, I'm not sure how often I am able to trivially rest of an alarm trap; it's probably not 50% of the time but it's min of 25% feels like 20:39:35 s/rest of/rest off/ 20:46:20 ebering: since we're challenging each other's branch decisions, did you have any final thoughts about the issues in my writeup? 20:47:23 I'm going to wait to hear from at least MarvinPA and advil before I merge 21:18:42 gammafunk: I like the solution to teleport of "takes you direct to the minotaur", communicating this to the player, and having the only exit by the minotaur 21:19:23 otherwise, the portal seems like it will overlap somewhat with baileys (not completely, because of the sequencing and monster set) 21:19:56 the "you must fight/evade/bamboozle the final boss to escape" aspect of labs is worth keeping 21:20:33 of course, you could also disable teleport and remove all other exits, so I guess this is two orthogonal feedback items 21:21:15 I think a major problem with removing all exits is the fact that some monster sets will not be safe for a player to face, and it's impossible for them to know this 21:21:27 if you think about the current portal, the player knows they'll face a single minotaur 21:22:09 so I preferred having an exit for any blind choice (like entering the portal in the first place) 21:22:45 as far as bailey overlap goes in general, I don't think that's a very big concern due to how different the layouts are and how different the monsters are; this portal has a distinct layout concept 21:23:08 I can't say that it's impossible to have only one exit yet also have randomized (dangerous) monsters 21:23:19 but I'm not sure you could really do this in a way that'd be easy to communicate 21:24:04 the only-one-exit aspect is cool but it's also something that works well with the old portal design and not the new one 21:24:30 as a compromise you could have only two exits, one at the beginning and the next one is near the minotaur 21:25:04 but you had even spoken about a map variant that would provide choice between exit and an arena at each stage 21:25:33 To give you more detail there: That waas going to be the hexagons with the mino in the middle 21:25:48 at each stage you have a choice: go into the middle and fight the mino, or press on around the outside challenges 21:26:06 "exit" for me meant go to the minotaur chamber 21:26:48 yeah, that's alright, but my other maps just don't work at all with this only-one-exit idea unless you have something like that modified teleport effect 21:27:24 I don't really feel that all maps having always one exit is actually such a strong thing that we have to preserve if it make the portal worse or teleport rules very weird 21:27:40 I like the two exit compromise 21:27:55 that can work for me 21:28:04 do you have that hexagon layout implemented? 21:28:13 not yet, was doing nemelex stuff 21:29:34 I was secretly hoping you'd put up some smaller arena subvaults before I dove in but alas 21:30:00 well I can, I was mulling over making all 7x7 actually 21:30:06 but I don't know how small you need 21:30:22 5x5 is so small that you have to start thinking about using different monster sets potentially 21:30:50 7x7 has a nice advantage where you can have the vault revealed fully using only one side 21:31:04 which means you can have vaults joined by the same wall 21:32:28 and if you want the playable area to actually be a hexagon (as opposed to just stringing together square vaults) 21:32:28 then it sort of requires another set of vaults 21:32:37 it's not too hard to make arena areas of various shapes though 21:32:39 yeah, I think that's what I'll have to do 21:32:53 I can probably crib the 9x9s just fine 21:33:47 legends say that a certain elf's the_grid subvaults 21:33:52 ....are also 9x9.... 21:34:14 if you wanted a source for shapes 21:34:24 but you didn't hear this from me 21:36:18 heh 21:44:42 Other than the explore effects being too few, do you see issues with known-traps? I'm adding teleportitis teleports now, but I'm still not convinced in the zot trap department. I know that it makes the zot-trap-effects even less relevant but I think that's ok 21:56:10 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 21:58:02 ebering: yeah I would probably just prefer to see zot traps go away rather than having such a complicated trap relevated to traps so that players would understand them less, but 21:58:13 zot trap removal is a thing we could do in a subsequent version 21:59:01 I will definitely push to either get them reformed or removed so that we don't end up with another "mechanical trap" type situation 21:59:33 some of these things can be iterated on over time, including the new lab portal; a decision now doesn't preclude a different one in e.g. the next version, after all 22:00:08 I need to actually play a couple quick games locally, getting them through lair to get a feel on the rate but 22:00:15 that's not anything that prevents merging 22:00:47 oh and "having such a complicated trap relevated to traps" is a horribly mangled version of "having such a complicated trap relegated to vaults" 22:00:58 I parsed that out 22:01:34 I agree. I think there's room for them to be reformed in a way that makes them good explore traps, I just don't know what exactly thaat will look like. 22:02:07 And the trap-effect rate is definitely going to need some further tuning, but I think it's at a place where that's hard to do with a handful of playesters on the experimental 22:04:17 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/872 * 0.23-a0-452-g832989f: Add teleports as an explore trap effect (gammafunk) 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 32+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/832989fd9bbe 22:04:20 void zot_trap(bool strategic_only = false) 22:05:07 ah if only it were that simple 22:05:25 it goes through MiscastEffect at the moment... 22:05:40 but yes, that's an approach 22:10:15 miscast effects, one of the all-time great gameplay features that got re-used in ways they weren't designed for 22:23:38 well, here goes 22:25:12 * gammafunk runs 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-495-ged22641: Reveal all traps 10(5 months ago, 27 files, 64+ 221-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed226419d297 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-496-g450027e: Remove trap detection from wizmode 10(5 months ago, 5 files, 0+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/450027eca3c4 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-497-g0f39d50: Exploration based trap effects. 10(5 months ago, 6 files, 62+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0f39d5043039 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-498-gdb6bce5: Zot-ify alarm traps 10(5 months ago, 2 files, 14+ 49-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db6bce5ac514 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-499-g17e7bed: Add dispersal traps 10(5 months ago, 6 files, 31+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/17e7bed968ff 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-500-ge407b66: Keep friendlies out of traps that affect the player 10(5 months ago, 3 files, 11+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e407b66e8f09 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-501-g723c74f: Don't make alarm traps permanent (MarvinPA) 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/723c74fb6f76 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-502-gf44f1ef: Lowercase a trap name in a des 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f44f1ef74f93 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-503-gd1cacb9: Derandomise num_traps_for_place 10(6 weeks ago, 3 files, 12+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d1cacb9f1ea3 22:25:43 03ebering02 07* 0.23-a0-504-gba9ec10: Refactor to prevent a crash 10(7 days ago, 5 files, 46+ 26-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ba9ec10daddc 22:25:43 ... and 7 more commits 22:25:56 did anything cool happen today or before today? 22:25:56 and that's how we'll blame bh for all of our balance problems with the next version 22:25:56 twelwe: something cool's about to happen 22:26:38 floraline: alexjurkiewicz thank you for hosting the experimental! I'll probably be bothering you again soon with some nemelex stuff 22:27:11 I'll probably push the vault tweaks to remove extra hatches aside from starting one and to disable tele 22:27:20 lol did the bot just give up at 7 left? 22:27:28 like fuck it, seven more, you figure it out 22:27:30 yeah it only print 10 22:27:39 to avoid an endless print cycle 22:27:45 I'd like to hear from at least MPA 22:27:51 <|amethyst> Unless there were exactly 11 commits in the batch 22:27:56 <|amethyst> in which case it reports all 11 22:28:02 ah, that makes sense 22:28:03 <|amethyst> because "... and 1 more commit" is silly 22:28:17 that just makes 12 the next 11 22:28:21 !seen elliptic 22:28:21 I last saw elliptic at Fri Nov 16 19:03:48 2018 UTC (2w 3d 8h 24m 33s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Leaving'. 22:28:27 he's not been around either 22:28:29 which is basically .999=1 all over again 22:28:31 ooh I could ping him on discord 22:28:45 <|amethyst> twelwe: ah, but 10 commits and "... and 2 more commits" is still one fewer message than 12 commits 22:28:46 he probably won't respond but I'll do it all the same 22:29:10 it's the end of the semester 22:29:42 oh shit, did you merge the traps PR 22:29:43 hell yeah 22:30:07 ebering: no problem, i'm glad those changes made it in they are pretty cool 22:30:31 i guess this means i should remove the branch now 22:30:55 yep 22:31:15 we had some merged branches linger on cbro as playable ones for like years 22:31:26 but it's better to remove it once the branch it's based on is merged (or defunct) 22:31:50 ebering: it's all done, happy to take it down then? 22:32:23 oh! i see now. congrats! 22:32:34 one thing i was working for webtiles-changes was to automate setting up experiementals 22:32:53 I finished the backend support for running special server-side operations but never fully implemented the rest 22:33:19 oddly enough, alex asking me to figure out how to do that and me figuring out how to do that led to the creation of beem 22:33:21 janitor commands? 22:33:29 since I finally had a basic grasp of asynchronous stuff after that 22:33:30 yep! 22:33:32 remember that? 22:33:55 yes! I wanted to give youse all save file access in a generic way 22:34:06 forced me to get a handle on asynchronous programming, so after we abandoned that I went off and made beem 22:34:12 yw 22:34:15 yeah, I implemented servers-side rebuild 22:34:20 or as a master of async programming would say: wy 22:34:22 it was a poor implementation 22:34:29 await say "thank you" 22:35:12 I think it would be really cool to have stuff like that for webtiles server but we really need to revamp that codebase to use a modern version of tornado 22:35:57 tornado was using formal Futures at the time, not sure if it still does that, but it's the same idea as e.g. asyncio 22:36:04 just with a different syntax 22:38:57 yeah. rewrite to py3.7 with native async would be nice 22:39:02 big project though 22:39:10 ditto updating the frontend to more modern react 22:39:28 I have the energy to contribute to either of those but not do all of it fwiw 22:40:57 well I'm not sure about react; the more backend stuff I have a better feel for since that's a bit more my background 22:41:14 I spent a bunch of time making stuff with react for webtiles-changes (implemented a server score list viewer) 22:41:26 it's a cool system but I'm just not a javascript or front-end programmer 22:41:52 and I don't really know if moving the client over to something like react is a good idea 22:41:53 the webtiles-changes approach was initially just moving lobby elementas over 22:41:58 *elements 22:42:54 so if you're really going to go through with rewriting the client in a more modern or better javascript framework, it really helps to know what you're doing 22:43:22 and there's the related question of trying to unify the offline client with the online one. Like could you have both be implemented in javascript? 22:43:38 Huge benefits if you could do something like that 22:43:39 webkit contrib in favor of sdl :P 22:44:01 yeah I don't know if aidanh has thought about that or has opinions on it 22:45:57 even if we drop the idea of merging the offline/online client I think we'd need to make some very informed decisions before we did a client rewrite with a new framework 22:46:36 I'm pretty ignorant of this side of computing. My opinion is that web 2.0 was a mistake and it's been getting worse since then :P 22:46:50 ebering gonna have us go back to console-only 22:47:11 "back in my day...we had 80 columns...and 24 rows...and we liked it!" 22:47:14 yes 22:47:22 80x50 also acceptable 22:50:50 when i saw console player stats i was flored. i cant believe how many people play tiles 22:51:28 it's like that can't even read 22:51:33 s/that/they/ 22:54:59 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-511-g809d6d0afd (34) 22:58:42 there's the rebuild 22:58:46 now time for the crash 23:12:59 no crash 23:13:08 code is gold 23:14:34 03CanOfWorms02 {GitHub} 07* 0.23-a0-512-g50a8178: Fix a connectivity issue in the_grid 10(14 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/50a81782d987 23:17:13 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-512-g50a81782d9 (34) 23:29:14 with that last build my cpu shot up and player count plummeted.. it's probably time to resize 23:39:24 floraline: well, you can always go back to daily builds 23:40:11 true, but that would just limit the problem to once per day 23:40:43 and some people are reporting stuttering anyway 23:41:24 I see