00:00:07 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-315-ga85b81c (34)
00:05:24 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
02:47:28 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-315-ga85b81c
03:11:52 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.23-a0-315-ga85b81c (34)
04:50:48 <minmay> question: why isn't the "transparent" tag for vaults the default
04:51:43 <minmay> it looks like practically all the old-style minivaults (where the MAP is surrounded by floor squares and therefore guaranteed passable) are missing the tag, resulting in a ton of vetoes
05:06:23 <Cheibriados> Manual vaults 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11707 by minmay
07:16:44 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
07:32:28 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:17:34 <hayenne> guys, the banishment ascii effect is seriously badass, well done!
09:20:59 <advil> minmay yeah, there's a potential problem there, but that seems hard to change -- because of the veto check for transparent vaults, it looks like there would be many vaults that would have to have their middles marked explicitly as opaque
09:21:14 <advil> there's a long history of that causing vetoes too
09:21:40 <advil> I suspect also at one time there was a performance issue that would lead to transparent being the default
09:25:54 <advil> I wonder if that designation could be picked automatically (and things that will veto either way detected)
09:28:44 <advil> hm, !transparent just masks the entire vault as opaque, but maybe there is something smarter to do
09:29:47 <advil> like, not mask outer floor squares that way
09:41:52 <advil> also, given that, maybe I'm wrong about changing it
09:42:12 <advil> since I think that veto check is just checking opacity anyways
09:43:15 <advil> maybe I just don't understand dungeon generation
10:40:05 <gammafunk> objstat crashed when a level apparently didn't generate the abyss portal like it should have: http://dpaste.com/1T681V7
10:43:52 <aidanh> gammafunk: that splash image looks good to me
10:44:53 <gammafunk> cool, no one else has commented on it, but I think if you wanted to put the header on there and add it, that would be fine
10:45:01 <gammafunk> or I can do but I'm not sure if I need to do anything special
10:45:27 <gammafunk> bearing in mind that I have a limited understanding of how to use gimp
10:56:41 <Yermak> Are players with rC susceptible to monsters' EH?
10:57:27 <ebering> I think that image looks great
10:57:33 <ebering> and would make an excellent splash
11:12:48 <gammafunk> it just needs to have the logo added, to get a proper filename, and to go in dat/tiles, then
11:13:10 <gammafunk> if anyone wants to do that now, otherwise I can
11:13:13 <gammafunk> later, that is
11:21:18 <advil> gammafunk: re the objstat crash, there have been sporadic online game crashes corresponding to that over the last few months too (could be older, and I just haven't been paying attention)
11:22:28 <gammafunk> ah
11:22:48 <gammafunk> I looked at the map and didn't see anything out of the ordinary
11:24:14 <advil> haha by sporadic I apparently mean there was one
11:24:23 <advil> I think I have seen it in running objstat or mapstat though
11:24:25 <advil> too
11:24:25 <aidanh> I'll go ahead and add it
11:24:51 <advil> yeah, I looked at it and it looked like it was going to be some kind of really indirect level gen issue, I couldn't figure out any obvious causes
11:25:25 <gammafunk> shame, I had to essentially start over my 8 hour objstat run, since that's the longest job
11:25:31 <gammafunk> hopefully it doesn't crash again
11:26:01 <gammafunk> I wonder if we could insert some special dprf or other thing that could give us a clue
11:27:37 <advil> !crashlog mibe teen
11:27:48 <Sequell> 1. mibe, XL23 TeEn, T:72346 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/mibe/crash-mibe-20180919-201046.txt
11:28:07 <advil> these crashes have been occasionally showing up since 2013
11:28:10 <gammafunk> hmmm
11:28:23 <Cheibriados> 03Aidan Holm02 07* 0.23-a0-316-g6773f7a: Add new title artwork (cws) 10(86 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6773f7a52ed0
11:28:35 <gammafunk> well that is a transporter vault
11:28:35 <gammafunk> which this crash also has
11:28:37 <gammafunk> but that map looks very weird
11:28:40 <gammafunk> like it's shifted somehow
11:28:59 <gammafunk> oh that's just his console glyphs I guess
11:29:12 <advil> yeah some are showing up as two chars for me
11:29:50 <advil> I mean, that definitely seems like the kind of map where there could be problems with obligatory placement, but you'd think there would be last-ditch code that would just stick the portal in somewhere
11:29:51 <gammafunk> yeah cbro serves out those files without the right type
11:30:15 <gammafunk> what I'm starting to wonder is
11:30:28 <gammafunk> is the dummy abyss portal placing in transporter vaults, causing this crash?
11:33:08 <gammafunk> maybe one code path is aware of how to take a transporter for connectivity but another isn't, or something
11:33:18 <gammafunk> just odd that both crashes had transporter vaults on the map
11:33:33 <gammafunk> but if as you say this crash has been happening since 2013 and it's the same cause
11:33:52 <gammafunk> then it can't be transporters per se I guess
11:34:23 <gammafunk> aidanh: thanks
11:34:45 <aidanh> no problemo
11:36:53 <advil> gammafunk from mibe's crash your theory is pretty plausible, so maybe transporters added a new special case of some more general problem like that?
11:37:17 <advil> !lm Tedronai mibe crash
11:37:20 <Sequell> 5. [2013-12-30 20:16:55] Tedronai the Intangible (L26 MiBe of Trog) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 702: Portal enter pandemonium[57] didn't get generated on turn 58985. (Depths:3)
11:37:24 <advil> !lm Tedronai mibe crash -log
11:37:25 <Sequell> 5. Tedronai, XL26 MiBe, T:58985 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/Tedronai/crash-Tedronai-20131230-201655.txt
11:37:26 <advil> that's an old one
11:37:35 <advil> oh tha'ts pan
11:37:52 <advil> !lm Tedronai mibe crash -2
11:37:53 <Sequell> 4/5. [2013-12-30 20:12:14] Tedronai the Intangible (L26 MiBe of Trog) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 702: Portal enter pandemonium[57] didn't get generated on turn 58985. (Depths:3)
11:37:57 <advil> !lm Tedronai mibe crash -3
11:37:58 <Sequell> 3/5. [2013-12-30 20:07:27] Tedronai the Intangible (L26 MiBe of Trog) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 702: Portal enter pandemonium[57] didn't get generated on turn 58985. (Depths:3)
11:38:14 <advil> there was an abyss crash in the same game somewhere I think
11:38:38 <advil> but maybe given this, something else was going on back in 2013
12:10:53 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.23-a0-316-g6773f7a52e (34)
12:19:06 <advil> needing a fallback for abyss is exceedingly rare, even compared to other portals
12:19:25 <advil> I think because it's pretty common for the fallback vault (which is just a portal) to be chosen in the first place?
12:21:49 <advil> I suspect that if fallback placement fails the builder should veto, right now nothing happens
12:25:03 <advil> should `ziggurat_fallback` have a fallback tag?
13:05:20 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.23-a0-316-g6773f7a (34)
13:26:12 <advil> does anyone remember what the current state of stderr/stdout output (e.g. for -builddb or something) is on windows?
13:54:19 <advil> seems like it all works, with some quirks
13:54:46 <advil> like, -help on tiles builds opens in a weird popup
13:58:09 <geekosaur> that's close to the only option, sadly
13:58:35 <geekosaur> windows has fairlys trong opinions abut the difference between gui and windows console programs
13:59:47 <advil> actually I'm seeing stderr stuff on windows tiles builds fine, apparently
15:58:07 <collin38> Can I get some help with a !lg query?
15:58:32 <collin38> I'm trying to get char,god combinations that haven't been won before, sorted by the current number of tries
16:03:58 <collin38> I was trying something like "!lg * recent s=char,god / won ?: N=0" but I don't see how to limit to a certain number of tries. Something like den.N>10
16:04:35 <collin38> also, it probably won't show combos that have never been attempted before right?
16:07:59 <collin38> also, o=%  or -% doesn't seem to do anything
16:13:19 <advil> try !unwon (I'm not going to run it in here with real args because it's a bit spammy)
16:13:23 <advil> well
16:13:26 <advil> !unwon
16:13:33 <advil> that one's not spammy
16:13:35 <advil> just slow
16:13:58 <Sequell> All playable chars have been won
16:13:58 <advil> !cmd !unwon
16:13:58 <Sequell> Command: !unwon => !lg * !experimental playable $(ignore $1)$* s=char title:"Unwon playable chars$(argst $*)" stub:"All playable chars have been won$(argst $*)" / won $(if $1 @$1) ?: N=0
16:13:59 <collin38> but unwon does include the god
16:14:21 <collin38> my query is the same as unwon, but uses char,god/won instead of char/won
16:15:55 <collin38> I basically want o=den.N I think
16:20:02 <advil> ah
16:20:10 <advil> I don't think that's implemented as-is
16:20:26 <advil> not sure if there's a more clever way to get that effect
16:21:02 <collin38> I mean I also have the problem that char,god combos that have never been attempted won't show up
16:21:07 <gammafunk> !lg * gods=char,god / won ?: N=0 den.N>10
16:21:08 <Sequell> Unknown field: gods
16:21:16 <gammafunk> !lg * god!= s=char,god / won ?: N=0 den.N>10
16:21:17 <collin38> s=
16:21:21 <gammafunk> just a typo
16:21:21 <Sequell> 97176 games for * (god!=): 0/28x HaNe (0/17x Ru [0.00%], 0/11x Cheibriados [0.00%]), 0/41x DrEn (0/14x Fedhas [0.00%], 0/27x Sif Muna [0.00%]), 0/156x TeSk (0/32x Wu Jian [0.00%], 0/20x Sif Muna [0.00%], 0/29x Nemelex Xobeh [0.00%], 0/20x Qazlal [0.00%], 0/13x Yredelemnul [0.00%], 0/17x Ru [0.00%], 0/11x Gozag [0.00%], 0/14x Zin [0.00%]), 0/199x DDAr (0/41x Cheibriados [0.00%], 0/14x Dithmenos [0....
16:21:29 <gammafunk> you just need to format it
16:21:54 <collin38> I thought I tried the den.N >10, and it didn't work..
16:21:57 <collin38> lemme try again
16:22:42 <gammafunk> den.N >10 might not like the space if you used that exactly
16:22:51 <advil> !lg . playable s=char,god / won o=N ?: N=0 den.N>10
16:22:53 <Sequell> 144 games for advil (playable): 0/14x DgTm (0/14x [0.00%]), 0/12x HOFE (0/12x [0.00%]), 0/33x KoAs (0/33x [0.00%]), 0/21x MfTm (0/21x [0.00%]), 0/25x MiFi (0/11x [0.00%], 0/14x Okawaru [0.00%]), 0/25x OgWz (0/25x [0.00%]), 0/14x OpBe (0/14x Trog [0.00%])
16:23:58 <advil> !lg * playable s=char,god / won ?: N=0 den.N>100
16:24:06 <Sequell> 2572380 games for * (playable): 0/572x DEWz (0/246x Nemelex Xobeh [0.00%], 0/136x Okawaru [0.00%], 0/190x Qazlal [0.00%]), 0/3354x HaEn (0/3354x [0.00%]), 0/8450x OgGl (0/8450x [0.00%]), 0/32253x OpWz (0/31980x [0.00%], 0/147x Xom [0.00%], 0/126x Qazlal [0.00%]), 0/2515x KoIE (0/2515x [0.00%]), 0/6213x OpAr (0/6047x [0.00%], 0/166x Xom [0.00%]), 0/4182x HaWr (0/4182x [0.00%]), 0/11252x VSTm (0/102...
16:24:32 <advil> !lg * playable s=char,god / won ?: N=0 den.N>1000
16:24:32 <Sequell> 2507698 games for * (playable): 0/3354x HaEn (0/3354x [0.00%]), 0/8450x OgGl (0/8450x [0.00%]), 0/31980x OpWz (0/31980x [0.00%]), 0/2515x KoIE (0/2515x [0.00%]), 0/6047x OpAr (0/6047x [0.00%]), 0/4182x HaWr (0/4182x [0.00%]), 0/1412x FeEE (0/1412x [0.00%]), 0/2282x GnWr (0/2282x [0.00%]), 0/3542x KoWz (0/3542x [0.00%]), 0/7054x OgSk (0/7054x [0.00%]), 0/1058x MfAr (0/1058x [0.00%]), 0/13358x DsCj ...
16:24:37 <collin38> oh, when I tried that I had forgotten god!=""
16:24:44 <collin38> kinda like advil just now :P
16:24:50 <collin38> so I thought it didn't work
16:25:24 <advil> well, those are still god choice combos that haven't been won!
16:25:32 <collin38> but I mean I guess that does tell you no one's ever won an atheist OpWz
16:25:40 <collin38> hmm, okay cool
16:25:45 <gammafunk> you can just do god!=
16:25:47 <gammafunk> don't need quotes
16:25:50 <collin38> thanks
16:25:51 <gammafunk> also, to improve formatting
16:25:56 <gammafunk> !lg * current s=char,god god!= pfmt:"${.} (${child})" fmt:"${.}" / won ?: N=0 den.N>30
16:25:57 <collin38> oh yeah I was going to ask
16:25:59 <Sequell> 8431 games for * (current god!=): OpVM (Ashenzari, Sif Muna, Vehumet), MuIE (Vehumet), DrMo (Wu Jian), GnWn (Trog, Sif Muna), OpFE (Sif Muna), OpGl (Gozag), SpAs (Okawaru, Gozag), TrMo (Wu Jian, Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Dithmenos, Qazlal), GnFi (Makhleb), MuAE (Dithmenos, Sif Muna), MiGl (Dithmenos, Uskayaw), DEFE (Ashenzari, Kikubaaqudgha), OpEn (Dithmenos), DsGl (Vehumet, Xom, Dithmenos, Trog), DsFE...
16:26:00 <gammafunk> things like this
16:26:13 <gammafunk> you can pass ${child} through a function to shorten the god name too
16:26:20 <gammafunk> or just shorten it to a letter yourself
16:26:26 <gammafunk> depends on if you want those counts
16:26:34 <advil> !lg * recent s=char !dg god= won
16:26:36 <Sequell> 48 games for * (recent !dg god= won): 10x MiMo, 5x MiFi, 3x SpEn, 3x VSFi, 2x GrFi, 2x MiBe, VSSk, DrFE, DsAK, DsFi, DsGl, DsWn, FoFi, FoTm, GhAM, GnFE, GnSk, MiWn, TrFi, TrMo, TrWn, VSGl, BaWz, HOBe, HOFi, HOMo, HuEE, MfEE, MiGl
16:26:56 <advil> was atheist mimo a meme?
16:27:15 <collin38> it looks like it
16:27:28 <gammafunk> it could be one or a couple people
16:27:34 <collin38> also no ones won a MiFi of sif for some reason
16:27:42 <gammafunk> !lg * recent mimo god= won s=name
16:27:44 <Sequell> 10 games for * (recent mimo god= won): 1biasface, Jannitor, JotmangGame, Leszczynek, NormalPerson7, ranchugoldfish, ScrubMan, ShadedKnight, stickyfingers, VajrapaniCONDUCT
16:27:53 <gammafunk> yeah looks like one of those challeng threads
16:27:56 <advil> yep
16:29:27 <collin38> woah, I never realized that there's ~1 god per letter of the alphabet
16:29:49 <collin38> TSO messes it up though
16:30:02 <geekosaur> crawl has a sort of 27 meme
16:30:07 <geekosaur> so A-Z, 1
16:30:57 <collin38> does that mean there's a plan for gods starting with I and P?
16:31:34 <advil> we had a P, rip
16:32:17 <gammafunk> !clap REMOVE PAKELLAS
16:32:18 <Sequell> 👏 R 👏 E 👏 M 👏 O 👏 V 👏 E 👏 👏 P 👏 A 👏 K 👏 E 👏 L 👏 L 👏 A 👏 S 👏
16:34:30 <collin38> gamma, did you mean there's like a substring function I can use to truncate the god name?
16:35:17 <advil> gammafunk: do you know if you can run mapstat with both an iterations value and a level spec?
16:48:40 <gammafunk> advil: by level spec do you mean the first arg to -mapstat? yes, and that's definitely intended
16:48:55 <gammafunk> you can combine -mapstat and -iters
16:49:55 <gammafunk> !lg * current s=char,god god!= pfmt:"${.} (${child})" fmt:"$(sub 0 1 ${.})" / won ?: N=0 den.N>30
16:49:57 <Sequell> 8434 games for * (current god!=): OpVM ($, $, $), MuIE ($), DrMo ($), GnWn ($, $), OpFE ($), OpGl ($), SpAs ($, $), TrMo ($, $, $, $, $), GnFi ($), MuAE ($, $), MiGl ($, $), DEFE ($, $), OpEn ($), DsGl ($, $, $, $), DsFE ($), DsTm ($, $), DrTm ($, $, $, $), TeFE ($), HOFE ($), DESu ($), DDFi ($, $), GnSk ($, $), GnGl ($), HuFi ($), GhBe ($), OpTm ($, $, $, $, $, $, $, $), OpWn ($, $, $), KoAK ($),...
16:50:00 <gammafunk> er
16:50:09 <collin38> I got it
16:50:11 <gammafunk> !lg * current s=char,god god!= pfmt:"${.} (${child})" fmt:'$(sub 0 1 ${.})' / won ?: N=0 den.N>30
16:50:14 <Sequell> 8434 games for * (current god!=): OpVM (A, S, V), MuIE (V), DrMo (W), GnWn (T, S), OpFE (S), OpGl (G), SpAs (O, G), TrMo (W, N, T, D, Q), GnFi (M), MuAE (D, S), MiGl (D, U), DEFE (A, K), OpEn (D), DsGl (V, X, D, T), DsFE (S), DsTm (W, C), DrTm (D, S, A, H), TeFE (V), HOFE (V), DESu (S), DDFi (X, O), GnSk (N, S), GnGl (O), HuFi (M), GhBe (T), OpTm (F, Q, E, U, S, G, A, W), OpWn (G, A, V), KoAK (L),...
16:50:14 <gammafunk> right, you get the idea
16:50:24 <gammafunk> an yeah there's a nice god shortening function too
16:50:37 <collin38> I just did s=char,regexp_replace(god, (..).*, \\1)
16:50:38 <collin38> lol
16:50:57 <collin38> your way is better
16:51:23 <collin38> there's no way to get the child results to be 'crossed' with the parent is there?
16:51:32 <collin38> like OpVMAs
16:52:04 <collin38> like, can fmt reference ${parent}
16:52:18 <gammafunk> you want it repeated?
16:53:04 <gammafunk> the $child dictates where all that stuff shows up, and no to my knowledge there's not way to get the parent
16:53:09 <collin38> yeah like OpVMAs: 45, OpVmVe 2
16:53:19 <collin38> hmm, okay
16:53:33 <gammafunk> !lg * current s=char,god god!= pfmt:"${.} (${child})" fmt:'$char$(sub 0 1 ${.})' / won ?: N=0 den.N>30
16:53:36 <Sequell> 8434 games for * (current god!=): OpVM (${char}A, ${char}S, ${char}V), MuIE (${char}V), DrMo (${char}W), GnWn (${char}T, ${char}S), OpFE (${char}S), OpGl (${char}G), SpAs (${char}O, ${char}G), TrMo (${char}W, ${char}N, ${char}T, ${char}D, ${char}Q), GnFi (${char}M), MuAE (${char}D, ${char}S), MiGl (${char}D, ${char}U), DEFE (${char}A, ${char}K), OpEn (${char}D), DsGl (${char}V, ${char}X, ${char}D,...
16:53:38 <gammafunk> yeah
16:53:48 <gammafunk> not accessible from the inner group
16:53:49 <collin38> ohhh
16:53:53 <collin38> oh well
16:54:06 <gammafunk> if you need more control you have to start doing subqueries
16:54:17 <gammafunk> what you can do is an initial query to create a dict
16:54:20 <collin38> this like like learning sql all over again
16:54:35 <gammafunk> then use a top-level sequellese command to format it
16:54:40 <gammafunk> it can get complicated, yeah
16:54:47 <gammafunk> example of what I mean
16:54:57 <gammafunk> !lairendallkills
16:55:04 <gammafunk> !cmd !lairendkills
16:55:04 <Sequell> Command: !lairendkills => !echo Lair end kills$(argst $*): $(vaultallkills lairendkmap gfmapat|junglebookdire|forestboggart "$*")
16:55:12 <gammafunk> !fun vaultallkills
16:55:15 <gammafunk> !fn vaultallkills
16:55:15 <Sequell> !fn vaultallkills (kf mf args) (hashcountsummary (combinehashcounts (lghashcounts "kmap!= $kf $args s=vault(kmap)") (lghashcounts "kmap= map!= $mf $args s=vault(map)")))
16:55:37 <gammafunk> that runs queries to assemble data with intermediate functions to tally that data
16:55:41 <collin38> I see
16:55:44 <gammafunk> !fn lghashcounts
16:55:44 <Sequell> !fn lghashcounts (args) (apply hash (flatten (map (fn (x) (let (s (split ':' $x)) (list (car $s) (int (car (cdr $s)))))) (split '|' (!lg * $args fmt:'${.}:$(if $n_x (replace x $n_x) 1)' stub:'' join:'|')))))
16:55:49 <gammafunk> stuff like that
16:56:14 <gammafunk> there are a few approaches
16:56:14 <collin38> that looks... hard
16:56:14 <gammafunk> this is probably not the best example
16:56:15 <collin38> but I'd probably have to do it to get never played combos
16:57:06 <collin38> how can I define my own functions?
16:57:55 <collin38> nvm !help wins
16:58:19 <gammafunk> ??userdef
16:58:19 <Sequell> userdef[1/1]: https://loom.shalott.org/userdef.html
16:58:31 <gammafunk> this is a very good reference, shows all user-defined commands, functions, key words
16:58:41 <gammafunk> do understand what are command and functions, how sequellese works
16:58:43 <gammafunk> ??sequell[3
16:58:44 <Sequell> sequellese[1/1]: https://github.com/crawl/sequell/blob/master/docs/commandline.md <|amethyst> It's like an unholy combination of Lisp and shell
16:58:50 <gammafunk> that's the sequellese reference
16:59:03 <gammafunk> and then you need !lg probably to get the data you want
16:59:08 <gammafunk> you probably already have the lg manual
16:59:15 <collin38> yep, that's what I've been looking at
16:59:16 <collin38> thanks
17:13:02 <advil> oh, I didn't realize -iters was a separate option
17:13:22 <advil> I just can't replicate this abyss thing so I wanted to run mapstat on depths 4 for 1000 iters
17:13:43 <gammafunk> yeah, that should work just fine as -mapstat Depths:4 -iters 1000
17:13:48 <advil> yep
17:14:06 <gammafunk> not relevant here but there's also a -force-map option
17:14:31 <gammafunk> forcing it to always pick the map you provide
17:14:51 <advil> if this doesn't work it might be worth using that to directly test your transporter hypothesis
17:15:00 <gammafunk> hrm, yeah
17:15:06 <advil> I've already done at least 500 iters without a crash
17:15:21 <advil> (I have it set to crash immediately if a fallback vault doesn't place)
17:16:11 <advil> hm I wonder if there's a later stage where the portal could get removed somehow
17:16:21 <advil> levelgen is still pretty mysterious to me
17:31:13 <gammafunk> ahhh
17:31:24 <gammafunk> now I see how I've incorrectly counted traps
17:32:37 <gammafunk> helpfully shows up as "floor" in the objstat output since that's how undiscovered traps are described
18:22:24 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-316-g6773f7a52e (34)
20:11:53 <collin38> Where am I allowed to define stuff on sequell? when I use !fn it tells me I can't define them in PMs
20:12:11 <collin38> I'm just trying to save some data cause my 'script' is getting longer than the irc char limit
20:12:52 <ebering> collin38: sequell only accepts definitions in public channels, however there's one primarily for sequell programming: ##crawl-sequell
20:13:00 <collin38> perfect thanks
20:18:41 <minmay> looks like "something loses its grip on you" lives on
20:18:45 <minmay> if you use tornado in snake pit
21:01:40 <ebering> gammafunk: I know you've thought some about auto-iding monster wands
21:01:58 <ebering> there's also the issue of assorted information leaks with equipment resists and certain spells
21:02:10 <ebering> and I know it's been floated before to just id monster equipment flat out
21:02:23 <gammafunk> by auto-id you mean reveal that the monster has it before use?
21:02:31 <ebering> yea
21:02:36 <gammafunk> since wands do already id upon use
21:02:42 <gammafunk> yeah
21:03:37 <ebering> specifically in _monster_warning in delay.cc changing ash_id_monster_equipment to id_monster_equipment, moving that function to mon-equip.cc and not checking for any god powers
21:06:51 <ebering> oh the file is mon-gear.cc
21:08:03 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.23-a0-317-g5ecafbc: Rewrite the contributor's guide and convert to markdown (advil) 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 201+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5ecafbc26db1
21:08:03 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 {gammafunk} 07* 0.23-a0-318-gb6e31bc: Various wording tweaks, typo fixes 10(11 days ago, 1 file, 24+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b6e31bc53cdc
21:08:03 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.23-a0-319-gb40ba49: Merge content from the old contrib guide and remove the old file 10(14 minutes ago, 2 files, 17+ 123-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b40ba49374e4
22:10:43 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.23-a0-319-gb40ba49374 (34)
23:16:31 <ebering> on the subject of id'ing monster equipment on seeing the monster
23:16:39 <ebering> I've got a patch ready to go that does this
23:18:31 <ebering> In the "for" column there's: resolves a bunch of info leaks, continues in the direction started by revealing brands, removes the tedium of tracking closely how hard monsters hit (looking for plusses if it's glowing), makes monster wands a known tactical threat instead of an x-factor requiring spoilers (wand generation rates) to rate the threat of
23:19:18 <ebering> in my "against" column there's: steals an ash power-poor ash, continues to reduce the scope of the id game? (the second con is questionable)
23:19:58 <ebering> but there might be a reason to keep monster equip unid'd that's good and hasn't occured to me
23:21:31 <alexjurkiewicz> you could split the patch into 1) reveal carried wands and consumables 2) fully ID all equipment
23:22:30 <gammafunk> ebering: so if the monsters has a branded armour, this reveals the brand?
23:22:34 <ebering> yes
23:22:59 <ebering> alexjurkiewicz: step 1) makes the codebase more complicated and special casey, writing step 2) directly was easier and simpler
23:23:26 <gammafunk> hrm
23:23:49 <ebering> also the item plus
23:23:50 <gammafunk> I guess the thing with not revealing armor egos is you have to remember things you tried on it
23:24:06 <gammafunk> and sort of track those pluses in the same way you do weapons
23:24:48 <alexjurkiewicz> fair enough. Would this also identify if a monster has cursed equipment?
23:25:18 <ebering> the current patch I've got sitting around fully identifies monster equipment
23:25:38 <ebering> it's the same as if a scroll of id was read on each item
23:25:53 <gammafunk> it's probably the most elegant approach in the end
23:26:43 <gammafunk> like, I could imagine some kind of system where you only knew partial info (it's positively enchanted or negatively enchanted) and the game revealed resistance egos only when the monster successfully resisted an attack with it
23:26:57 <alexjurkiewicz> I was going to say it might feel weird for monster items to be fully identified wihle floor items are not. But I thought square los would feel ridiculous until about 5 minutes after experiencing it
23:27:41 <gammafunk> but having that sort of in-between id stuff doesn't offer much positive benefit to the id system
23:28:24 <CanOfWorms> why would it feel weird, players identify equipment when they wear it too
23:28:26 <gammafunk> and it gives you a kind of incenstive to try out various attacks on weak monsters
23:28:40 <gammafunk> to see if you can get a free ID or something
23:28:49 <gammafunk> if they happen to have ego armour or the like
23:28:58 <gammafunk> so I guess just fully identifying it is the only real way
23:29:08 <gammafunk> there is still floor ID, after all
23:29:26 <ebering> also, at present we've got a lot of bugs related to armour ego
23:29:57 <ebering> e.g. vapours and EH will not target monsters which have the appropriate resist even if you don't know they have it
23:30:33 <gammafunk> yeah, the bug fixes are nice, but more just thinking from gameplay perspective really; it's true that we keep eroding identification in this game and we have to consider that for as long as we want to have identification
23:30:55 <gammafunk> but in this case it feels like it's just a lot of benefit and not too much loss
23:31:40 <ebering> Sigmund the Dreaded comes into view. He is wielding a +4 scythe of slicing.
23:32:02 <gammafunk> It sort of feels odd how just him carrying that tells you it's +4
23:32:12 <gammafunk> yet you can't know that if it's lying on the ground, for some reason
23:32:25 <CanOfWorms> it needs to be worn....
23:33:00 <gammafunk> worms I'm standing one foot away from it
23:33:14 <gammafunk> yet I can see sigmund has +4 from all the way across the room!
23:33:24 <ebering> it's all in the combat stance
23:33:32 <ebering> like you know elves are power casters because of the squat
23:33:48 <CanOfWorms> the scythe just looks like a doofy scythe until someone picks it up
23:33:55 <CanOfWorms> it's like those superhero artifacts
23:34:09 <CanOfWorms> looks like a piece of rock until the chosen one finds it
23:34:10 <alexjurkiewicz> i guess you could identify everything but the plus...?
23:34:15 <CanOfWorms> then it transforms into a green lantern or something
23:37:59 <CanOfWorms> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhK7723Ofxo&t=27 footage of a crawl player wear-iding equipment
23:39:40 <ebering> is the disembodied hand hints mode?
23:40:06 <CanOfWorms> yes
23:40:21 <CanOfWorms> hell maybe it's the mouse cursor
23:57:05 <Cheibriados> Yellow stair asterisk and tile highlght are the same color, asterisk is very hard to see with highlight. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11708 by TruePurple
23:59:52 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-319-gb40ba49 (34)