00:01:56 while there's no real assignment of work, I think (in theory) devs will tend to review code in areas of the codebase they're familiar with 00:02:07 Well you also do a sort of rapid-fire style of PR making that often doesn't have the clearest view of what it's trying to achieve; not in every case certainly, but in many cases in the past. You could boil some of that down to disagreement about the game's design between yourself and the people doing design stuff 00:02:45 so it's probably not too surprising that a lot of your PRs might not get looked at; particuarly if they're in relatively minor areas that aren't a big priority 00:03:24 "rapid-fire style of PR making" meaning just that I create a lot? yeah :) 00:03:53 well the latter-half of what I said very much applies 00:04:00 remember when you were first submitting PRs, alex? 00:04:09 you didn't think you needed to put justifications in them 00:04:23 I agree things can just sit forever, this was a problem with mantis as well 00:05:07 but ultimately, yeah you have to be patient and kind of get a sense of what the design people want to see changed; with some of those people less active this is definitely slower than in the past 00:05:43 but it can be difficult to find people who both have consistent work output and who seem to like the overall vision of the game that's been in place for a while 00:05:51 in terms of working on design things 00:10:15 I hope I come across as patient, and having goodwill about this process. I have been writing Crawl PRs for a few years now, hopefully their quality has improved. I'm happy to wait for changes to make it into the game 00:11:46 alexjurkiewicz, I looked at a couple of your PRs and notice for the most part one significant theme: you offer changes that change the game for everyone per your tastes. 00:12:40 Yeah, I get where you're coming from, and I agree they have improved :) Hopefully we can get to some of that backlog soon, and I'm sure a few will be closed and not merged, but certainly some will be making their way in (probably datafiles most notably) 00:13:27 Naruni: interesting feedback. Can you give an example of a PR you think exemplifies this? 00:13:42 right, what Naruni said is really the challenging part about collaborative game design; if you change the game's design it has to make enough devs who care about game design happy, and that is a tough one at times 00:15:59 pulls 629, 847, and 285 00:16:44 although on 285 you quote minmay so I'm not sure if minmay asked for the change or what 00:17:18 alex does love to make his PRs based on tavern discussions 00:17:29 actually alex I do have a PR for you, a reverse PR! 00:17:30 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-207-g93a313e (34) 00:17:44 go win every mage background once! and not of trog. this is your homework 00:17:57 Naruni: I guess I'm not clear on the line between making the game more like my tastes and making the game better. I mean I know they are distinct things :) But I'm not clear how #847 "Upgrade orb run spawns" is not a good upgrade 00:18:06 and don't give me this "I can't" thing, you have over 20 wins by now 00:18:09 *not a good change 00:18:36 gammafunk: I think my best mage attempt was with a faerie dragon with a few runes that splatted in Depths recently 00:18:50 they're not too hard, you just have to slow down 00:19:24 a couple of tourneys ago I played with a 2 second turn delay in my rc and won the first and only game I was willing to play like that 00:19:28 I say this only half-jokingly; our best designer-coders all have a bunch of wins, of course, but they're all won their fair share of mages 00:19:36 alexjurkiewicz, as far as 847, IMO this game is designed with a certain amount of RNG. I particularly LOVE that part of this game. Changing it to be more linear (along with your strength adjustment PR mentioned earlier) I would argue doesn't appeal to the entire playerbase 00:20:38 what I'm saying is that even though there are some very good posts to come out of tavern posts (or reddit discussions), having ones own extensive experience at how to play a thing really helps a lot for the game design stuff 00:20:49 For instance, seeing a tier 5 demon spawn is hilarious, your suggestion is to remove that possibility if I'm reading it right 00:21:09 ah, well, that's something a lot of devs would be ok with too Naruni 00:21:12 including myself 00:21:21 booooo :) 00:21:38 Naruni I wouldn't mind a hilarious demon to spawn on the orb run if it could kill you in an interesting way 00:21:40 OOD monsters and damn-near impossible RNG hate is part of the fun of the game. 00:21:41 Naruni: I see! I agree the game needs funny things, but I'm not sure that a broader range of outcomes from any event is intrinsically good (which I think is what you are saying) 00:21:51 what if toenail golems were really deadly 00:24:21 I'm not one for storyline of games either, but it seems that the orb is something very mysterious the player is trying to obtain. Having pan lords and demons spawn adds to the fluff of the game, IMO 00:25:10 I'm no expert on this game, I'm just adding to the conversation alexjurkiewicz 00:26:58 yeah Naruni, it is good flavor having the demons chase you, but having a totally trivial monster just spawn and annoy you is something a lot of us have a problem with 00:27:53 if it's purely comedic/flavor, at least it shouldn't just make you do a bunch of button presses to make it go away, basically 00:28:28 I'm trying to run webserver/server.py locally and start a game but I'm getting "AttributeError: 'GameDataHandler' object has no attribute 'absolute_path'" am I running it wrong? 00:32:20 gammafunk, isn't that pretty much the absolute sum of the entire game? :) 00:33:29 Does carrying the orb give you the same effect as sentinel's mark? 00:33:47 Naruni: well, taking the orb run as an example, if a fiend or a hellion spawns, that's just qualitatively so much different than an imp spawning 00:33:59 you have some hard decisions to make regarding the former, not for the latter 00:36:04 alexjurkiewicz, going back to my original point about the changes you've suggested affecting all players. When I was doing commits way back, I mostly tried to help with bugfixes. I did 2 or 3 feature adds to the game which only affected players who decided to use the features. 00:36:50 2 I remember were automagic (which nobody probably uses) and read scroll / use item from ground (which I think lots of people like). 00:36:52 Naruni: I think you're saying I should stick to only fixing bugs unless I'm in the dev team, which I disagree with 00:37:35 alexjurkiewicz, no not at all. I'm just saying it looks like you want to change the game in ways that affect all players without their choice. 00:38:09 I do. But I think most changes do this, so I'm unclear what about my changes in particular relate to the concern 00:38:28 collin38: what version of tornado do you have installed? 00:38:37 But I do acknowledge that I am not part of the dev team so it is not my place to make changes which affect the entire game 00:39:18 we can have different opinions :) 00:40:02 aidanh, 4.5.1-2.1~build2 00:40:11 python-tornado 00:40:56 collin38: I believe that's too new; you should use a venv and then run: pip install 'tornado>=3.0,<4.0' 00:41:16 alright, thanks I'll give that a shot 00:41:46 tornado 4 should work 00:42:08 at least I'm using tornado==4.0 00:42:33 well you're also on webtiles-changes 00:42:41 good point 00:42:53 yeah I should've read the readme more carefully: Tornado 4.x is known not to work 00:42:55 not sure we've ported the tweaks to the necessary function calls to webtiles in trunk 00:43:23 I made a logical guess as to what needed to happen to "support" tornado 4 and applied that to webtiles-changes 00:43:50 but I think it's also the case that we need to rewrite some of webtiles handling of the event loop if we want to properly port to more recent tornado 00:44:35 yes you should port to pizza tornado 00:45:17 !flip Kramin 00:45:17 (╯°□°)╯︵ uᴉɯɐɹK 00:46:36 hmm, I should make a PR simplifying EV calculations so I can finally make an !ev command that works 00:46:44 :P 01:03:40 03gammafunk02 07* 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f: Remove a spiral vault (11554) 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 32-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b6b040f31c9e 01:16:05 alexjurkiewicz: re alchemist's stone, I'm concerned it might be a bit overpowered 01:17:23 it's a great idea though; not sure how design-focused devs feel, but I'd like to see more unrands that are practical 01:27:40 aidanh: yeah. My notes say "todo: scale mp based on damage blocked" but I was feeling it was pretty good too. I think +1 MP per blocked hit is quite good already. Its effectiveness can be scaled by changing the shield size and enchantment pretty easily 01:28:58 I think it being a buckler is a good tradeoff to the large amount of extra mp it generates 01:30:12 I disagree that +1 mp is a very strong affect 01:30:31 not saying that +mp is a bad effect, but if you think +1 mp upon block would be strong, on what characters would it be strong? 01:30:37 so when you block something you get 1 mp 01:30:46 yeah most chars dont want to get hit a lot 01:30:51 or at all 01:31:00 if they are casting from a distance 01:31:01 characters using an item like this would be either very heavy spell users that avoid getting hit, or gspirit users (VS or users of the amulet) 01:32:04 for the latter this is not going to be that good compared to just having a lot more sh (obviously there are tradeoffs with moving up to a shield, it's something like regen++ on a buckler for them) 01:32:44 so it probably needs a stronger MP restoration effect to be good 01:32:49 skalds I think are the prototypical character that would like it 01:33:08 anyone that uses MP in melee 01:33:21 skalds don't lack MP in melee past the early game 01:34:56 it's difficult to scale the restored MP with the damage blocked because of the way attack.cc phase ordering works, but the amount could be increased in a fixed way. Might be hard to find a number which isn't completely ignorable in some situations and ridiculous in others 01:35:07 I think the characters that like it are more just heavy spell users or people using gspirit, which isn't a bad set of players to target, but I don't think +1 mp per block is going to get those characters too excited 01:35:28 could scale with HD of the blocked monster 01:35:30 well you can just put a cap on it, ultimately 01:35:53 but I don't think skalds want for MP like you might think they do, if that was what you were going for 01:36:02 could be interesting on hybrid chars 01:36:17 if a skald has even 20 mp, what doe they need for more mp in combat 01:36:22 as long as the mp amounts to significantly more than an amulet of mp regen 01:36:31 s/doe/do/ 01:36:35 wel you usually dont learn spells you would spam 01:36:40 because you wont have the mp 01:36:55 right, heavy spell users (regardless of starting background) 01:37:05 so maybe you modify your build and use more summons 01:37:06 you can be a heavy spell user that also does melee 01:37:19 then you can keep casting summons as you fight 01:37:24 idk 01:37:25 but the skald spells are not mp-intensive 01:37:41 I think it's possibly an ok idea but you definitely need something stronger than just +1mp 01:37:47 yeah 01:37:57 make it worth taking hits for the mp 01:39:10 maybe as an unrelated problem skalds need more spells to spend MP on 01:39:20 a mid-level infusion replacement 01:39:37 yeah infusion is an underused mechanic maybe 01:39:45 well, really none of those warrior-mages have particularly mp-intensive spells in their books 01:39:55 that's sort of the contrast with them and mages 01:40:11 pproj is a nice one IMO 01:40:11 they use MP, but they don't need too much of it 01:40:14 but I think a skald with some summoning spells is going to reasonably like that buckler 01:40:44 for drawn out fighting 01:40:52 well they might like it if it gave more MP 01:41:15 also a skald with bvc heh 01:42:22 yeah, I think the focus on "skald theory" is not well-concieved there; it's really just a question of how much you need MP, and if you use MP heavy spells repeatedly in combat, you'd like something that awarded MP 01:42:53 maybe it could look at the damage of the blocked attack with a cap or just award a range of MP in the first place 01:43:38 what sort of MP reward do you think would be good to get from something like a juggernaut? 01:43:58 I'll play with some different ways to scale between 0 and that number 01:44:16 maybe 10 01:44:35 I think you want to be more in terms of something you'd actually choose to melee more reasonably, like a gold dragon or something 01:44:51 @??gold dragon 01:44:51 unknown monster: "gold dragon" 01:44:56 golden dragon 01:45:02 @??golden dragon 01:45:02 golden dragon (08D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 86-126 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 40, 2009(claw), 2007(trample) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(180), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 4178 | Sp: b.fire (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], b.cold (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], poisonous cloud (3d11) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 01:45:24 I'm not sure about the thing to check, since if you have some kind of HD cutoff, it's possibly not usable early on 01:45:27 when monsters have low HD 01:45:34 1d(HD/2) or something 01:46:00 yeah maybe 01:46:00 you could simply have it award 1-4 MP regardless of attacker 01:46:12 yeah 01:46:20 finding this early would be amazing, but you don't really care about that too much; you want it to be viable the whole game 01:46:53 so would you bother wearing this in depths when you have 30 or 40 MP? 01:47:06 maybe it could restore 10% of MP on hit 01:47:49 I suppose that might work 01:47:56 also it only works if you block right 01:48:04 evasion happens before blocking? 01:48:26 sounds right 01:48:52 this is still going to be somewhat niche as an item, just keep that in mind 01:49:11 mostly because MP availability is less and less a problem in this game as the game goes on 01:49:33 would be better in hellcrawl 01:49:34 but there will be characters that use it for longer periods in the game 01:49:46 where you cant just go upstairs and rest 01:51:50 permabuffs might also factor into that, but yeah someone trying to win isn't going to just say "I'm a skald, so I must need lots of mp!" 01:52:32 yeah 01:52:32 but if you really do need a lot of MP and are in the position to block a bunch of melee hits, that's who will use it 01:52:43 I'm fine with most randarts being niche 01:53:09 As a VS or someone with gspirit I would sure like it 01:53:19 provided that the MP was appreciable 01:56:08 yup 02:10:40 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f31c (34) 02:19:29 ??install 02:19:29 install[1/1]: See the following for installation and compilation: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt 02:23:37 TZer0: We're going to move crawl species data into yaml files (PR #721), and servers need the pyyaml python module + python2.7 or higher. See https://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation or the python-yaml debian package for installation. Can you look into setting this up on CUE? 02:23:57 !tell Medar We're going to move crawl species data into yaml files (PR #721), and servers need the pyyaml python module + python2.7 or higher. See https://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation or the python-yaml debian package for installation. Can you look into setting this up on CXC? 02:23:57 gammafunk: OK, I'll let medar know. 02:30:18 !seen Medar 02:30:18 I last saw Medar at Fri Sep 21 21:00:03 2018 UTC (2d 9h 30m 14s ago) quitting, saying 'Remote host closed the connection'. 02:31:04 Napkin: We're going to move crawl species data into yaml files (PR #721), and servers need the pyyaml python module + python2.7 or higher. See https://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation or the python-yaml debian package for installation. Can you look into setting this up on CDO? 02:31:47 johnstein: We're going to move crawl species data into yaml files (PR #721), and servers need the pyyaml python module + python2.7 or higher. See https://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation or the python-yaml debian package for installation. Can you look into setting this up on CBRO? 02:32:39 !tell advil I've contact the admins for CUE, CXC, LLD, CWZ, CJR, and johnstein for CBRO regarding pyyaml installation, will let you know as I hear from them. 02:32:40 gammafunk: OK, I'll let advil know. 02:45:21 looks like ubuntu comes with pyyaml for new CPO server 02:52:08 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f 03:09:53 !learn add yaml Servers with pyyaml installed as reported by admins: CAO, CXC, LLD, CPO 03:09:53 yaml[1/1]: Servers with pyyaml installed as reported by admins: CAO, CXC, LLD, CPO 04:37:46 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please. 04:38:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic 05:06:50 re searching the message log, anyone have any preference between highlighting, filtering, and actual searching? 05:09:46 where filtering is what the spell menu does, highlighting just colour codes matching lines, and searching highlights but also supports jumping to next/prev matches 05:28:30 hrm, probably jumping next/prev is helpful given how large the message log is 05:28:51 but I think I have mine set at the max size 05:28:59 filter might not be so good since often you'd like context for your match 05:29:11 even to just know if a given match is relevant 05:42:05 right, filtering isn't great; not sure what the performance impact of jumping will be, since it requires looking at all messages, not just the currently visible ones 06:31:14 yeah, a highlight would certainly be a fine improvement if next/prev is too much 08:31:50 New branch created: contribguide (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/contribguide 08:31:50 03gammafunk02 07[contribguide] * 0.23-a0-209-g8b83cd6: Rewrite the contributor's guide and convert to markdown (advil) 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 201+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b83cd6acf3b 08:33:23 !tell advil I went over that contrib guide you started and added some more edits, results are in branch 'contribguide'. It's close to ready but I'll probably make some more changes before merging. Feel free to make more of your own and/or fix mistakes. 08:33:24 gammafunk: OK, I'll let advil know. 08:33:32 likewise for any other devs who want to take a look at that 08:34:22 now I can edit that thing on the github ui instead of vim, hopefully it will be better that way 09:21:09 highlights are already supported for all text widgets, so that's easy enough 09:21:50 I'd like to refactor the formatted_string class before adding next/prev support, though 09:22:51 currently formatted_strings are a single array of string segments and colour operators, which makes a lot of seemingly simple tasks extremely tedious 09:23:29 I've been planning to separate that into a string and an array of colour operators 09:24:14 trying to add robust string searching is a nightmare when you consider colour changes splitting a match in two, etc 09:38:58 The build passed. (contribguide - 8b83cd6 #10293 : gammafunk): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/432446483 11:04:54 The pubby thing in terms of how he handled that was just very silly 11:04:54 definitely doesn't make me excited to collaborate with them much in the future 11:05:01 ...because you clearly were excited to collaberate with me in the first place? 11:05:11 4 months and not one response to my pull request? 11:05:41 I ping you multiple times, the last a few days ago, and you don't even have the thought to type out a single sentence reply? 11:06:46 the only messages I've seen of you are either dismissive (calling my project a "silly little thing") or focused on you; e.g. "I need to figure out what to do with pubby's thing" rather than "I need to work with pubby on this" 11:07:18 and when people complain about this, you put the blame on them? 11:08:09 do you really think it's healthy for multiple contributors to rage quit? 11:08:22 we've lost so many good people 11:09:13 I mean people like Denzi quit. He was the the OG artist! He stopped posting graphics because nobody was dealing with his submissions 11:10:13 right now crawl dev is down to like 3 people 11:10:46 and that's how you like it 11:11:03 with no one but yourself in charge 11:35:49 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 12:17:30 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:08:49 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f (34) 16:18:28 -!- dontgetocky is now known as dontgetcocky 18:22:42 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f31c (34) 19:16:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please. 19:16:43 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic 19:22:22 -!- ebering_ is now known as ebering 20:31:26 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 23:59:42 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.23-a0-208-gb6b040f (34)