01:10:06 -!- Rast-- is now known as rast
01:24:08 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-353-g2d6336e (34)
01:56:41 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-353-g2d6336e
02:04:03 <CanOfWorms> beogh seems to have no problem raising orc corpses as skeletons (and making chunks in the process)
02:11:17 <aidanh> I think that was reported on mantis recently
02:52:17 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-353-g2d6336e
03:11:44 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.22-a0-353-g2d6336e (34)
04:13:44 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:30:40 <NormalPerson7> !vault bailey_polearm-5
08:30:40 <Sequell> Can't find bailey_polearm-5.
08:30:40 <NormalPerson7> !vault bailey_polearm_5
08:30:40 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/bailey.des#L915
08:30:54 <NormalPerson7> is it intentional in this bailey vault that monsters pick up all the summoning scrolls and read them?
08:31:12 <NormalPerson7> because they're intended to be the main loot from the bailey, excepting monster weapons perhaps
08:31:36 <NormalPerson7> it seems bad to have the monsters poke fun at you by using up all your loot?
08:35:02 <NormalPerson7> there's a tag which could be added to stop monsters picking them up, or am i wrong?
08:44:57 <NormalPerson7> yep, it's called no_pickup
08:45:31 <NormalPerson7> i shall create a PR for that unless somebody puts up a good case why we should let bailey monsters steal most of the good loot
08:46:07 <gammafunk> why is this specific to bailey monsters
08:46:38 <NormalPerson7> it doesn't have to be, but it was that vault that inspired me
08:46:38 <gammafunk> if stealing loot is a problem that we have to prevent, would all loot in all vaults disallow this
08:47:14 <NormalPerson7> no idea, but it's just that baileys are specifically designed to give the player some loot after facing some monsters
08:47:35 <gammafunk> well that is the specific design of all vaults which place loot and monsters
08:48:00 <NormalPerson7> yep
08:49:13 <NormalPerson7> actually it would appear i am wrong
08:49:20 <NormalPerson7> i will run this vault in a game
08:49:36 <NormalPerson7> because the vault syntax suggests a 3/4 chance to get acq/exp
09:01:24 <NormalPerson7> yeye i am wrong
09:03:15 <NormalPerson7> but i still ask: do you think it is good that monsters can pick up summon scrolls and use them against you when they're a big part of the vault's loot? i'm just asking, now that i realise acq/exp are likely, i don't necessarily think it's an issue
09:11:14 <aidanh> NormalPerson7: I'm not sure what the value of mentioning * as an alternative to ctrl is (pr 738)
09:13:56 <gammafunk> I don't think it's a question of whether the loot is acq/exp or what
09:14:08 <gammafunk> it's more what is the purpose of the vault in question
09:14:23 <NormalPerson7> sure
09:14:32 <NormalPerson7> but what do you think about it?
09:14:35 <gammafunk> portal vaults are optional challenges that tend to be variable in both risk and reward
09:14:46 <NormalPerson7> yep, that's agreed
09:15:00 <gammafunk> we use no pickup for e.g. lair end because lair:6 is in every game and those vaults (it could be argued) are more critical for game balance
09:15:24 <gammafunk> but monsters not picking up loot in a specific vault is essentially a spoiler since it's not default
09:15:34 <gammafunk> and it's not needed for game balance reasons in those optional portals
09:15:37 <NormalPerson7> aidanh as the commit message states, it's to remind players trying to attack with ctrl-n and realising their browser takes over that * dir works too, but it's a really minor thing
09:16:04 <NormalPerson7> ok fair enough gamma
09:17:19 <NormalPerson7> aidanh maybe the commit message doesn't say that explicitly
09:17:37 <NormalPerson7> can i retrospectively change it using git commit --amend?
09:17:38 <aidanh> I see; perhaps it'd be possible to show that for webtiles only?
09:17:46 <NormalPerson7> erm probably ye
09:17:51 <aidanh> you can
09:18:32 <aidanh> my thought was that there are loads of keybinds that use ctrl, and I wasn't sure why this one warranted a special mention
09:19:20 <NormalPerson7> yea it's cos for a long time i thought there was just plainly no way to attack down-right on webtiles using it, cos i wasn't aware of *dir until the response to my bug report
09:20:11 <NormalPerson7> #ifdef USE_TILE_WEB is how i would do that, right?
09:21:46 <aidanh> yes, although I'm not sure if that's also used for SSH+console games
09:25:05 <NormalPerson7> i mean i have no way to test that, ofc, unfortunately
09:25:27 <NormalPerson7> the TILE bit implies webtiles only
09:26:09 <NormalPerson7> but wouldn't SSH/console games have the same problem anyway if done online?
09:26:26 <NormalPerson7> it's just no new players realistically play console
09:27:48 <aidanh> I would imagine that if you start a game on console and then resume it on webtiles, different binaries are used
09:29:26 <NormalPerson7> probably
09:32:32 <NormalPerson7> btw there are other options like USE_TILE and USE_TILE_LOCAL, so USE_TILE_WEB i will assume definitely refers only to online tiles
09:34:26 <Cheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/738 * 0.22-a0-354-g722d490: Add reference to * direction as alternative to ctrl+direction (#11401) 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/722d49072885
09:48:21 <NormalPerson7> that's done now :)
09:49:42 <aidanh> I'd prefer to confirm that behavior rather than guessing
09:50:23 <Cheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/738 * 0.22-a0-355-g44b1c61: Make the * direction message exclusive to WebTiles (aidanh) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/44b1c61f10e4
09:50:27 <aidanh> not that it's all that critical of a detail in this instance, of course
09:50:33 <NormalPerson7> any way i can do that without a huge amount of hassle, or any way you can do that?
09:51:25 <aidanh> wait for another dev to read the scrollback and comment
09:52:19 <NormalPerson7> the problem is i can't stay connected to ##crawl-dev overnight, so: the dev which comments on that, could you please reply to my comment in the PR instead please?
09:52:31 <NormalPerson7> the comment which i'm about to post
09:54:16 <aidanh> you can check the channel logs for a reply when you have time; they're at https://s-z.org/crawl-dev/
09:55:07 <NormalPerson7> thx for that, i didn't know that existed :D
09:56:25 <aidanh> no worries
10:20:34 <|amethyst> USE_TILE_WEB is for builds that support webtiles
10:20:54 <|amethyst> the servers that do both console and webtiles use just one binary, built with USE_TILE_WEB
10:21:30 <|amethyst> but, ctrl-direction can be a problem sometimes in Unix console too
10:22:26 <|amethyst> you can use   tiles.is_controlled_from_web()   to see if the player is actually playing through webtiles (but only if USE_TILE_WEB is true)
10:22:54 <|amethyst> (ctrl-arrow is the problem specifically; ctrl-yubnhjkl is fine)
10:37:05 <NormalPerson7> in which case do you think it is an issue, as aidanh suggested, just to have this message change for all platforms?
10:37:18 <NormalPerson7> ie. revert the last commit, |amethyst ?
10:51:00 <aidanh> I'm not too bothered either way, but it's nice to keep messages focused and relevant
10:52:27 <aidanh> one approach is to have a format_keybind() helper that converts certain keybinds on certain platforms
10:56:01 <NormalPerson7> so you could do that for ctrl-N?
10:56:18 <NormalPerson7> i don't see how that could overwrite the browser functionality
10:56:24 <NormalPerson7> but maybe it could
10:59:54 <NormalPerson7> i reverted it, at the very least because it didn't achieve what we wanted
11:01:37 <aidanh> the idea is that the helper would recognize ctrl-n and convert it to * n if tiles.is_controlled_from_web() returns true
11:02:12 <NormalPerson7> !source format_keybind
11:02:13 <Sequell> Can't find format_keybind.
11:02:18 <aidanh> same for ctrl-arrow on console
11:02:22 <NormalPerson7> right
11:02:24 <aidanh> it doesn't exist yet
11:02:39 <NormalPerson7> just checking :)
11:02:57 <aidanh> it could also do colouring
11:03:06 <NormalPerson7> the problem is without an example already in the code, i wouldn't be able to do that
11:04:21 <aidanh> and could potentially substitute remapped keybindings, if users have any
11:04:56 <Cheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/738 * 0.22-a0-356-ga54aa9f: Revert "Make the * direction message exclusive to WebTiles (aidanh)" 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a54aa9f54a3a
11:06:13 <aidanh> well, it's not entirely clear how useful such a helper would be; one would need to look for other bits of crawl that print keybinding strings
11:13:06 <aidanh> looks like there's something similar already happening for ?? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5779
11:13:47 <aidanh> !source _add_insert_commands
11:13:47 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/command.cc#L774
11:14:38 <aidanh> er, I meant !source insert_commands
11:14:51 <aidanh> !source insert_commands
11:14:51 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/macro.cc#L1486
11:15:43 <NormalPerson7> i didn't realise you replied to pr 735, i replied to your comment now :D
11:16:46 <NormalPerson7> actually i guess i can actually just test that on my local branch
11:22:02 <NormalPerson7> thx aidanh :)
11:22:18 <aidanh> you're welcome
11:31:35 <Cheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/735 * 0.22-a0-354-g06dce95: Clean up a little 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/06dce95077e5
11:33:16 <aidanh> NormalPerson7: I'll manually merge that now, since the whitespace error is easy to fix, and I want to discard the wizlab.des change
11:33:42 <NormalPerson7> yep, ofc, sorry you have to do that manually, it's fixed now :)
11:33:53 <NormalPerson7> fixed for the future, that is
11:34:13 <aidanh> not a problem; git is very confusing at first
11:34:24 <NormalPerson7> oh btw
11:34:33 <NormalPerson7> the whitespace is fixed in that cleanup commit
11:35:35 <NormalPerson7> by whitespace i assume you mean the extra lines thing, not the fact that git add -p seems to go crazy about trailing whitespace sometimes
11:35:50 <aidanh> I meant the trailing whitespace
11:36:37 <NormalPerson7> so that is important then?
11:36:58 <aidanh> git goes crazy about that because it's introducing unnecessary changes, which are to be avoided
11:37:19 <NormalPerson7> hmm is there any way to easily avoid that then?
11:37:21 <aidanh> they make git blame harder to use
11:37:34 <aidanh> yeah; check with git diff -w
11:37:41 <aidanh> uh, sorry, git diff --check
11:37:51 <NormalPerson7> all right, i will do in future
11:40:48 <Cheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 {Aidan Holm} 07* 0.22-a0-354-g30dfbe6: Fix a double prompt on putting on rings with *Drain/*Contam/!P (#11309) 10(2 days ago, 3 files, 10+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/30dfbe6fded5
11:55:26 -!- Rast- is now known as rast
12:09:53 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-354-g30dfbe6fde (34)
13:09:10 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.22-a0-354-g30dfbe6 (34)
13:43:34 -!- Bammboobies is now known as Bammboo
13:52:34 <gammafunk> MarvinPA: If you have time to give feedback on this, would be appreciated: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Dithmenos-shadow-step-changes
13:57:01 <MarvinPA> hmm, i'd be a little wary of adding a new type of cooldown that you'd need to rest off after combats
13:57:44 <gammafunk> yeah, it's true that you have to rest it off, esp after a stab of a single monster
13:58:36 <MarvinPA> i don't think it's in an especially bad place at the moment currently but maybe just entirely dropping the immobility requirement with no additional restrictions would work, and increasing piety cost slightly
13:58:51 <gammafunk> right
13:59:23 <MarvinPA> i think piety costs being high-ish is okay since dith doesn't have a lot of stuff to spend it on
14:02:17 <MarvinPA> or getting a kill could reset the cooldown
14:02:45 <MarvinPA> although that's maybe tending towards being unnecessarily complicated
14:03:03 <gammafunk> right, I guess I'm a little worried about people chaining it excessively
14:03:12 <gammafunk> if the piety cost were a bit harder that is more difficult to do
14:03:31 <gammafunk> well not really, but it's a lot more costly to do
14:04:43 <MarvinPA> yeah, and also you'd start making it less effective (since its range is your umbra range, right? which would begin to drop)
14:04:43 <gammafunk> ah, that is true
15:23:51 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
16:39:47 <advil> for trailing whitespace, util/checkwhite will fix it
16:40:17 <advil> I don't fully understand what is going on with the discussion of the * thing, but it works in console and is supposed to work in console
16:42:27 <advil> iirc it was introduced for wierd console situations, webtiles is just a bonus
16:42:38 <advil> don't know how common those are any more
16:43:03 <advil> and maybe this was sorted out, but most console online games are compiled with USE_TILE_WEB
16:45:09 <advil> the binary is the same in the typical server setup
16:45:29 <advil> (which makes sense if you think about what has to happen for someone to spectate a console game via webtiles)
17:13:25 <geekosaur> at a guess, it's there because Windows likes to use control characters for special functions, making some of them dicey in terminal emulators. Possibly also for ^S ^Q ^C etc.
18:19:45 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.22-a0-354-g30dfbe6fde (34)
21:46:32 <aidanh> the discussion was more about how to avoid displaying keybind help that's not relevant to the platform
21:47:56 <aidanh> in this instance, switching on USE_TILE_LOCAL would work, as the * dir alternative is relevant for all other platforms
21:48:20 <aidanh> potentially relevant, anyway
21:50:20 <aidanh> the other consideration was whether showing such alternative keybinds can and should be automated with a helper function