00:00:08 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.22-a0-142-g91cc6d7 (34)
00:01:40 <Eksell> Stable (0.21) branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21.1-1-g345015f
01:10:24 <Gretell> Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21.1-1-g345015f (34)
01:22:23 <Rotatell> ziggurnaut (L18 TeAE)  (Shoals:4)
01:24:51 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-142-g91cc6d7 (34)
01:47:11 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.22-a0-143-g83aada6: Fix a compiler warning: uints are never less than 0 10(31 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/83aada62b4cc
01:57:59 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-142-g91cc6d7
02:07:50 <drazt1k> I was trying to report a bug but seem unable to where I'm supposed to. So I popped in here.
02:09:42 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-143-g83aada62b4 (34)
02:54:34 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.22-a0-143-g83aada6
03:10:44 <Rotatell> Stable (0.21) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21.1-1-g345015f
03:12:09 -!- escu_ is now known as escu
03:12:33 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.22-a0-143-g83aada6 (34)
03:26:17 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:48:43 <ProzacElf> ??mantis
04:48:44 <Sequell> mantis[1/2]: To report bugs or submit new content like vaults, patches or tiles, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
04:48:46 <ProzacElf> drazt1k
04:48:48 <ProzacElf> ^^
06:59:52 -!- Snuva is now known as surr
09:07:38 <drazt1k> Well I would have if it had let me. :-(
09:08:26 <drazt1k> Yep, can't log in to report there.
09:09:15 <wheals> oh yeah making accounts was disabled because of spambots unfortunately
09:34:01 <advil> IMO we should just tell people to open github issues if new accounts at mantis aren't going to happen
10:55:41 <shmup> a++
11:17:18 <advil> update on the travis erroring situation, I think what's going on is this issue: https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-ci/issues/9112
11:17:38 <advil> which then leads to some package info being messed up
11:17:46 <advil> I left them a detailed bug report
11:37:54 <krag> Hi, I'm trying to build from source (on Windows), but I'm getting an error building SDL (https://pastebin.com/8pxWzLRG). Anyone able to tell where I messed up?
11:53:03 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
12:02:25 <Henzell> Stable (0.21) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21.1-1-g345015f
12:07:20 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.22-a0-143-g83aada6 (34)
12:18:19 <Lantell> Stable (0.21) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21.1-1-g345015fe64
12:20:48 <geekosaur> uh. thought that was fixed?
12:28:23 <drazt1k> So, all that being said... my bug involves book shops allowing browsing adventurers to Memorize whatever they want without buying their respective books.
12:35:09 <krag> geekosaur: Was that in response to my error or something earlier?
12:38:03 <geekosaur> yours. that is some interaction between msys2 and sdl, and we supposedly updated the sdl submodule to get a fixed version
12:39:47 <krag> ahh, thanks, if it's just something known to fail when building on windows that's all good (on my end, I wasn't sure if I mucked up something).
12:57:10 <krag> Looking at the files, it looks like the latest version of SDL (2.0.7), so it should be updated.
13:43:04 <advil> krag: yeah, that ought to be fixed (and I have succesfully built recently on msys2 without getting it)
13:44:22 <advil> could you pastebin the entire make output, not just the error snippet?
13:46:48 <krag> Full output https://pastebin.com/afMsBC6H
13:48:23 <krag> It might be a mingw update causing it, not sure, but I seem to have gotten past it the same way as for some older references of similar errors, by commenting out the duplicate definitions
13:48:35 <advil> have you tried updating mingw?
13:49:06 <krag> I installed and updated mingw today, I think it should be the newest version
13:49:09 <advil> ah ok
13:49:20 <advil> is it a fresh clone of the repository, too?
13:49:57 <krag> yes
13:52:04 <advil> hm
13:52:26 <krag> is there a command to see mingw version (or is that the same as gcc -v)?
13:53:40 <advil> probably but I don't know it offhand, sorry
13:54:12 <krag> np
13:55:50 <advil> so as far as I know that error really shouldn't happen with SDL 2.0.7
13:56:00 <advil> is it possible that somewhere on your system you have headers for a different sdl version?
13:57:57 <krag> it's not *im*possible :) but I highly doubt it, and the error message complains about conflict between mingw and the src from the sdl under contrib
13:58:56 <krag> I'm trying to find what the current newest mingw version is supposed to be, but my googling is failing
13:59:25 <advil> that's something to check but as I understood it the upstream SDL fix shouldn't depend on that
14:00:23 <krag> ok
14:01:42 <krag> the sdl/whatsnew.txt says 2.0.7 so that ought to be up to date at least
14:02:03 <advil> yeah, if you did a fresh clone it would be hard to get the wrong sdl contrib version
14:06:18 <advil> hm, I'm not sure our contrib makefile actually has the right defines in it, but then I have no idea why it builds for some people
14:07:26 <advil> you should be able to make it build for you by adding "#define HAVE_XINPUT_GAMEPAD_EX" and "#define HAVE_XINPUT_STATE_EX" to that SDL_xinput.h
14:09:01 <advil> the fix in sdl2 actually seems to rely on a configure check, and we don't use the configure
14:09:41 <geekosaur> actually do we want mingw, or msys2?
14:10:07 <krag> I'll try that if the build fails on something, I was able to get it to build the contrib by commenting out the two typedefs in that file.
14:10:10 <advil> oh
14:10:22 <advil> yeah I wonder if this is a base mingw vs msys2 thing
14:11:14 <advil> ok, those two defines are equivalent to commenting out the typedefs
14:11:53 <advil> are you using msys2?
14:12:12 <krag> I installed whatever it said in the install.txt, it says msys2 mingw64 on the launcher
14:12:18 <advil> ok
14:13:00 <advil> yeah, the relationship between the different options is a bit confusing, but that sounds like the best one to use (and the one I've been using iirc)
14:13:37 <krag> and here I just wanted to put some honeycombs in the beehives :)
14:13:45 <advil> heh
14:14:19 <krag> I played so much during the tourney that I wanted to try and help with something easy
14:14:32 <advil> can you pastebin the file you have at C:/msys64/mingw64/x86_64-w64-mingw32/include/xinput.h
14:14:41 <krag> yups, sec
14:14:52 <advil> the one I have with my msys2 install definitely doesn't define XINPUT_GAMEPAD_EX
14:14:53 <wheals> oh wow good bug
14:14:58 <advil> the book one?
14:15:02 <advil> yeah that's pretty fun
14:15:03 <wheals> yeah
14:16:45 <krag> xinput.h -> https://pastebin.com/M6z5pB8E
14:24:33 <krag> It seems to have built correctly now at least, can play and do wizard stuff.
14:33:46 <advil> I think the answer is going to be that I was *not* using an up-to-date msys2
14:34:41 <advil> and since it's a configure check in upstream sdl2, we didn't actually fix this problem
14:37:23 <krag> it seems a general problem with msys2 and sdl then, not so much crawl, as the solution was the same as one I saw suggested in the spring with sdl 2.0.5
14:37:41 <advil> well, it's the way we are using sdl2
14:38:16 <advil> years ago someone wrote a custom Makefile for building in the repo, and we haven't consistently updated that
14:39:25 <krag> oh, ok, there's supposed to be some config in there to alleviate that specific issue?
14:40:01 <advil> yeah
14:41:57 <krag> got'cha, anywho, I can muck about with the des files now, so thanks for the help
14:44:10 <advil> yeah, that's exactly it, once I actually updated everything with pacman, I have the same xinput.h as you
14:44:24 <advil> I just didn't follow directions very well when I installed msys2
14:45:41 <krag> I missed to do the second update first time I think too
14:56:52 <advil> %git 4bd3c4a35
14:56:52 <Cheibriados> 07SteelNeuron02 {advil} * 0.21-a0-445-g4bd3c4a: Rework WJC Wall Jump 10(3 months ago, 12 files, 38+ 122-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4bd3c4a35ffe
14:57:33 <MarvinPA> %git 7cd46d36cfbf441fd3bea1dff3679136940085c0
14:57:33 <Cheibriados> 07Aidan Holm02 * 0.22-a0-96-g7cd46d3: Allow memorising from description of book on ground (Yermak, #10799) 10(12 days ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7cd46d36cfbf
14:57:43 <MarvinPA> this looks like it's the cause of being able to just memorise from shops for free
14:57:46 <advil> yeah
15:00:45 <advil> is someone already working on that bug?
15:01:04 <MarvinPA> i can be, it looks like it's just one extra check for !is_shop_item
15:02:35 <advil> ah ok, just wondering because I was going to take a look after I deal with this stupid XINPUT thing, but you're the second person to mention the bug in channel since I've been working on it (and I'm not done yet)
15:03:15 <advil> so if you want to, feel free :)
15:03:22 <MarvinPA> ah yeah, i just took a quick look because i saw someone mention it earlier and hoped it wouldn't be too hard to track down
15:03:38 <MarvinPA> (and luckily it wasn't!)
15:04:21 <drazt1k> Yay.
15:05:30 <MarvinPA> drazt1k: thanks for reporting - i think re: the problems with signing up on mantis, it might currently be closed to signups due to spam issues unfortunately
15:05:49 <MarvinPA> oh i see wheals already said that, yeah
15:06:15 <drazt1k> Yeah, I caught that. Considered putting it on git, but looks like you guys are already past that.
15:07:30 <drazt1k> My current game feels a bit like a dirty cheater getting cblink and apportation for free.
15:15:32 <advil> gammafunk: this question isn't entirely well-formed, but when you cross-compile the windows build what version of mingw do you use and where do you get it from?
15:24:10 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.22-a0-144-ge17c957: Don't allow memorising from books in shops without buying them (drazt1k) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e17c9578eba4
15:48:09 -!- Fixer_ is now known as Fixer
16:01:54 -!- Fixer is now known as Fixer_
16:01:57 -!- Fixer_ is now known as Fixer
16:04:35 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
16:06:46 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
16:09:45 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-144-ge17c9578eb (34)
16:25:52 <krag> Can I spawn the rooms generated by the "special room" functions? I tried spawning as a vault (special_room_bee) and it says places successfully, but it's not showing up on the level.
16:49:46 <wheals> did you try using &P as well as &L?
16:53:40 <krag> Just &L I'll try the other now, thanks
16:56:40 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
17:00:52 <krag> Can't get it to work with &P either, but they are probably not vaults, so need to be placed in some other way I guess.
17:09:10 <advil> !lg HeyVsauce
17:09:11 <Sequell> 2. HeyVsauce the Covered (L2 MiFi), got out of the dungeon alive on 2018-02-04 00:25:02, with 27 points after 1759 turns and 0:14:55.
17:09:22 <advil> !lg HeyVsauce x=src
17:09:23 <Sequell> 2. [src=cbro] HeyVsauce the Covered (L2 MiFi), got out of the dungeon alive on 2018-02-04 00:25:02, with 27 points after 1759 turns and 0:14:55.
17:09:30 <advil> !lg HeyVsauce -2
17:09:30 <Sequell> 1/2. HeyVsauce the Skirmisher (L2 MiFi), slain by Sigmund (a +0 scythe) on D:2 on 2018-02-02 18:18:14, with 20 points after 256 turns and 0:02:27.
17:10:20 <advil> johnstein: that user was reported as a spammer on CBRO in a tavern post, I haven't tried to verify or anything
17:11:44 <advil> spamming tileschat, specifically
18:17:25 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.22-a0-144-ge17c9578eb (34)
18:21:44 <gammafunk> advil: I juse use the version of mingw available in the distro of the aws instance, which is ubuntu 16.04 in my case
18:22:09 <gammafunk> there's an appropriate package to install to get all the necessary mingw compiler+tools
18:22:49 <gammafunk> looks like it's the mingw-w64 package
18:29:02 <advil> ah
18:29:45 <advil> it turns out that upgrading sdl2 didn't fix the XINPUT thing
18:29:45 <advil> since sdl2 deals with that at the configure stage
18:30:04 <advil> by a test compilation
18:30:13 <gammafunk> oh really
18:30:58 <advil> so I'm trying to figure out if there's any sort of sensible way to do it without a test compilation, hopefully without breaking non-msys2 mingw builds
18:31:13 <gammafunk> advil: well you can make a commit to simply patch the contrib
18:31:47 <gammafunk> if you understand what needs to be change, but yeah I guess that might be non-trivial if we don't know what the change should be to ensure compatibility
18:31:52 <advil> yeah, except I think it'll break sdl2 compilation against a situation where the system xinput.h doesn't define those things
18:32:55 <gammafunk> this whole way of doing the contribs that we do seems a bit weird
18:33:00 <advil> basically sometimes (in recent msys2 mingw) system xinput.h defines two structures that sdl2 needs for gamepads, but in most build configurations it doesn't and so sdl2 defines them
18:33:01 <advil> yeah
18:33:15 <advil> I wonder how many other problems are lurking because we don't ever run configure
18:33:45 <gammafunk> we just can't depend on configure because it would really prevent any kind of windows MSVC bilds
18:33:48 <gammafunk> *builds
18:34:29 <gammafunk> although sdl2 must support compilation with the MS environment
18:35:03 <gammafunk> not sure how they approach compilation there
18:35:23 <advil> hmm true
18:36:27 <advil> the first patch for this problem in sdl2 used a really ugly set of define checks (combination of mingw defines and gcc version), so I might merge a version of that
19:10:11 <gammafunk> johnstein: shadedknight reports more offensive tiles chat trolling on cbro (offensive usernames and said users leaving messages in tiles chat)
19:10:45 <gammafunk> we really need to do something about that in webtiles itself
19:55:04 <ZiBuDo> gammafunk: I did the log + milestones updated
19:55:13 <ZiBuDo> I have the old ones still so let me know if it looks good
19:57:08 <gammafunk> nice, thanks!
19:57:32 <gammafunk> ZiBuDo: snark tells me sequell will just start pulling again, but I'll email him
19:59:53 <ZiBuDo> kk
20:01:21 <gammafunk> !lg * cjr
20:01:22 <Sequell> 135872. pepper the Severer (L15 DDFi of Makhleb), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on Orc:2 (st_orc_pillars) on 2018-02-06 00:48:18, with 100060 points after 19135 turns and 0:25:16.
20:01:25 <gammafunk> ZiBuDo: huge success
20:01:31 <ZiBuDo> lol
20:01:31 <gammafunk> !lg * cjr alpha
20:01:32 <Sequell> 79245. pepper the Severer (L15 DDFi of Makhleb), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on Orc:2 (st_orc_pillars) on 2018-02-06 00:48:18, with 100060 points after 19135 turns and 0:25:16.
20:01:36 <gammafunk> !lg * cjr alpha x=cv
20:01:37 <Sequell> 79245. [cv=0.22-a] pepper the Severer (L15 DDFi of Makhleb), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on Orc:2 (st_orc_pillars) on 2018-02-06 00:48:18, with 100060 points after 19135 turns and 0:25:16.
20:01:37 <ZiBuDo> thanks for keeping back ups
20:01:42 <ZiBuDo> hopefully dont get a virus again
20:01:51 <gammafunk> np, although that's thanks to greensnark (as always)
20:02:03 <ZiBuDo> ofc
20:28:35 <johnstein> gammafunk, advil, I just got home. looking now
20:29:24 <gammafunk> johnstein: regarding the troll issue? let me know if you need more details from shadedknight
20:30:11 <johnstein> I don't see the username in the log
20:30:38 <gammafunk> do you need some usernames? I can ask him
20:30:40 <johnstein> oh nm. shadedknight isn't the troll name
20:30:44 <gammafunk> oh, right
20:30:49 <gammafunk> yes he was the reporter
20:32:30 <johnstein> looks like it's HeyVsauce
20:32:34 <johnstein> (Michael here)
20:33:29 <johnstein> would be nice to have a log of the offenses
20:34:49 <|amethyst> we had chat logs once, but people though it was weird and intrusive
20:35:02 <gammafunk> yeah, we still have them, but you have to enable them in your morgue
20:35:04 <|amethyst> so now it has to be explicitly enabled by the player
20:35:05 <gammafunk> er your config
20:35:31 <gammafunk> yeah it was kind of annoying for both chatters and players
20:35:33 <johnstein> I know
20:35:55 <gammafunk> players had all these messages strewn in their notes sections, chatters had all their chat messages permanently and publically logged
20:35:59 <johnstein> that it's not default and it's weird that we had them on by default since the server morgues are public
20:36:05 <johnstein> yea
20:36:09 <gammafunk> *publicly
20:36:22 <gammafunk> I'm sure |amethyst would agree the best choice is to disable tiles chat :)
20:36:26 <johnstein> I get that. but puts me in a tough spot since I want to react, but I don't want to just take people's words for it
20:36:33 <|amethyst> indeed
20:36:51 <gammafunk> yeah, I mean I can mention to shaded to report when said person does it again
20:36:57 <gammafunk> then the wack-a-mole game can continue...
20:37:15 <johnstein> at this point I'm thinking the best solution is to put up a patreon for CBRO and funnel all the money to hire someone to handle the central auth
20:37:19 <johnstein> only partially joking
20:38:16 <johnstein> I mean, it's not *really* a daily or even weekly issue. but at any moment it could be since there's really no protection. it actually increases my faith in humanity that we don't have *more* issues than we do
20:38:34 <johnstein> which is a decent silver lining I suppose
20:40:54 <gammafunk> right, some pretty basic moderation could probably make the problem go away
20:41:04 <gammafunk> but there are few people with the time to implement that right now
20:41:19 <gammafunk> I could, but I just don't have the time to take on another big crawl project
20:41:44 <johnstein> hence my nonsuggestion of throwing money at the problem to contract it out
20:42:08 <johnstein> but that's probably not really the dcss way
20:42:08 <johnstein> and could potentially open up more bad things
20:42:08 <gammafunk> well that *might* work, but do keep in mind it's also a matter of coordinating these changes with all the server admins
20:42:20 <gammafunk> rolling them out, making sure any server config issues are dealt with
20:42:54 <gammafunk> it's not a "write a quick patch" thing necessarilly (just talking about chat moderation here), but I might be overstating it
20:43:04 <johnstein> sure. it might mean formalizing what it means to be 'an official' server
20:43:22 <johnstein> very likely. I'm intentionally being a bit naive
20:43:48 <gammafunk> for central sign-on I think that's really a bigger project where we'd actually need an auth server that gets hosted by someone dedicated to doing that
20:45:00 <johnstein> I just know I'm barely a competent sysadmin and it's just a matter of time before I get burned. which is cool. this is all just for fun. but after seeing demise's strong negative reaction and criticism of cpo not being ready for the tourney and "screwing over" the aus players, a little part of me was feeling grumpy
20:45:52 * geekosaur considers snark about entitlement vs. unpaid people doing things in their free time
20:46:15 <johnstein> I'm home all night. if the troll comes back let me know so I can deal with it
20:46:18 <geekosaur> ...and, uh, the impression I get of Demise is they're pretty entitled
20:46:34 <gammafunk> will do johnstein, i'll ask shaded to let me know if it happens again and if so I'll notify you
20:46:42 <johnstein> I've been a subscriber of his YT channel for a while. I was really surprised to watch the video
20:47:00 <gammafunk> geekosaur: we just need one of our helpful users to try to prove a point to us again that we need to upgrade our infrastructure
20:47:26 <johnstein> but whatever. maybe dcss is now a bonafide esport. I should try to get some sort of corporate server sponsor
20:47:26 <gammafunk> that's really how you support a project, grief the server in some way
20:47:41 <gammafunk> yes, he's pretty obnoxious
20:47:54 <johnstein> I think I'm going to stop snarking and go play super mario world 3d with my kids
20:48:00 <gammafunk> nice
20:48:44 <gammafunk> I was watching a player die in one of my vaults, that's sort of like playing with kids
20:49:52 <hellmonk> wow, savage
20:49:56 <hellmonk> gfunk in with the slam
20:51:40 -!- Snuva is now known as surr
21:01:11 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.22-a0-145-gdab028f: Improve some god welcome messages (Dingbat) 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dab028fd9956
21:01:26 <Lasty> gammafunk: I just saw the thread about transporter vaults earlier today
21:01:26 <Sequell> Lasty: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:01:36 <gammafunk> Lasty: thread?
21:01:45 <Lasty> on the tavern. From like last July. :
21:01:45 <gammafunk> I saw you died in its_a_trap
21:01:45 <Lasty> :p
21:01:50 <gammafunk> oh, yeah
21:01:56 <gammafunk> you died real good in that vault
21:01:58 <Lasty> gammafunk: I was surprised by how many people thought it was impossible to determine that the vaults are intended to be bad ideas to enter
21:02:01 <Lasty> yeah, I died like a champ
21:02:08 <Lasty> really strong char too
21:02:16 <Lasty> I was surprised by how much I died
21:02:16 <gammafunk> heh, yeah that vault is not one where you have trouble making the decision
21:02:26 <gammafunk> yeah your technique was not too bad until
21:02:33 <gammafunk> you poked your head around that safe corner you had
21:02:37 <gammafunk> let all those zot traps come into los
21:02:38 <Lasty> But that didn't stop me from successfully raiding it on my next char. I just queued up a tele the next time
21:02:44 <gammafunk> right
21:02:45 <Lasty> gammafunk: lol, yeah, I thought they were all dead
21:02:48 <gammafunk> nice
21:02:53 <gammafunk> yeah, my strat for that vault
21:03:00 <gammafunk> involves never letting monster+zot traps come into los
21:03:06 <Lasty> gammafunk: makes sense
21:03:08 <gammafunk> by blinking from a nice spot initially into the side corridors
21:03:13 <Lasty> but then you already know what the right way to do that is :D
21:03:16 <gammafunk> and shouting+fog
21:03:17 <Lasty> and I never stop to think :p
21:03:18 <gammafunk> yeah
21:03:27 <gammafunk> that would violate the Lasty playstyle, true
21:03:39 <Lasty> I mean, I'm pretty dedicated to tabbing towards monsters in the dark
21:03:46 <Lasty> even tho that's definitely wrong
21:03:53 <gammafunk> it works fine most of the time
21:04:07 <Lasty> yup
21:04:12 <Lasty> makes the game a lot faster too
21:05:14 <Lasty> but in general, I think the idea of ideas that it's basically a bad idea to enter but where you can potentially trade consumables for a chance at survival + loot are good.
21:05:27 <Lasty> And the fact that you know that you don't know what you're getting into doesn't change that.
21:05:52 <Lasty> I think some people just want to have a zero risk, full info playstyle
21:05:57 <gammafunk> right
21:06:04 <gammafunk> I'm actually going to probably redesign this vault though
21:06:16 <gammafunk> to be fully transparent, with a similar concept but different layout
21:06:42 <gammafunk> since it's sort of nice if extreme vaults like this don't have spoilers
21:06:44 <gammafunk> and I want to remove those awful "You hear a distant Zot!" messages
21:06:53 <gammafunk> since they're not very helpful and are annoying in general
21:07:16 <Lasty> gammafunk: doesn't the vault show a ton of zot traps already?
21:07:31 <Lasty> I was pretty confident going in that it'd be full of them
21:07:50 <gammafunk> yes it does, but you don't know if monsters are going to appear in los when you transport or what
21:08:00 <gammafunk> so a player reasoning about this vault really wants to look up spoilers
21:08:17 <gammafunk> for this kind of vault, I'd prefer they be able to make a full decision based on what they see
21:08:27 <Lasty> :shrug:
21:08:27 <gammafunk> but there could be hidden traps of course (remove!)
21:09:04 <gammafunk> I mean I agree with the general sentiment you express; if I can't make the vault dangerous/fun with glass I probably won't change it
21:10:05 <Lasty> After looking at the thread on labyrinths, I'm inclined to make the minotaur slightly more dangerous. I suppose I can't give all minotaurs speed 12 because then players will wonder why they don't get it, but something like that seems ideal. Also, the loot could probably be slightly lowered.
21:10:23 <gammafunk> oh, I wanted to do a full lab redesign project
21:10:26 <Lasty> I know that doesn't address people hating labyrinth gameplay, but it does change the risk/reward
21:10:35 <gammafunk> I had a good basic idea that probably needs some fleshing out
21:10:44 <Lasty> oh yeah?
21:10:47 <gammafunk> that doesn't stop you from making tweaks though
21:10:52 <gammafunk> yeah, I need to make a writeup, but
21:10:56 <gammafunk> the basic idea goes something like this
21:11:16 <Lasty> If only minotaurs weren't a player race
21:11:27 <Lasty> I suppose I could make a Minotaur Charger special monster
21:11:31 <Lasty> or something like that
21:11:32 <gammafunk> you enter a kind of large map with "paths" that you choose, each path is a vault with some monsters and loot (probably after the monster room)
21:11:59 <gammafunk> you can see mosnters/loot in each path, and if you choose a path, you go forward and can't return
21:11:59 <gammafunk> there are various ways to do this
21:12:08 <gammafunk> but after each vault room you again choose a next room
21:12:18 <gammafunk> probably two choices presented each time?
21:12:23 <Lasty> gammafunk: that sounds pretty fun
21:12:26 <gammafunk> the vaults would basically be the ones you see currently in labs
21:12:34 <gammafunk> and at the end is always the mino in its vault
21:12:36 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf
21:12:48 <Lasty> do  you have an estimated ETA?
21:12:49 <gammafunk> hopefully, yeah, there are issues like how you handle teleport
21:12:57 <gammafunk> not very soon, I haven't started working
21:12:57 <hellmonk> when is fedhas reform
21:13:06 <gammafunk> so don't let that prevent you from making tweaks if you like
21:13:13 <Lasty> hellmonk: shouldn't I be asking you that? :D
21:13:25 <hellmonk> i did the hard part (posting a gdd thread)
21:13:26 <gammafunk> if I have time to finish this release, would be good
21:13:41 <Lasty> hellmonk: well, after you shower off the sweat, feel free to take a pass at it.
21:14:01 <Lasty> but seriously, I do think Fedhas desperately needs changes
21:14:11 <hellmonk> yes, i agree
21:14:20 <gammafunk> yeah, I like the basic concept well enough, but details will be important to get right
21:14:25 <hellmonk> hence why I keep shitposting about it on gdd
21:14:26 <gammafunk> and I haven't spent much time looking
21:14:38 <Lasty> gammafunk: do you think people would support speed 12 monster minotaurs? I suppose I could just give the labyrinth mino a haste potion...
21:15:00 <Lasty> Or maybe minotaurs could have the swiftness spell like alligators
21:15:21 <gammafunk> speed 12 doesn't sound like the worst thing to me; probably something fairly basic over something like swift I think
21:15:27 <gammafunk> speed 12 is nice since they attack more
21:15:42 <gammafunk> swift feels a bit weird
21:15:58 <gammafunk> I don't have very strong opinions; I guess labs are fairly easy aren't they
21:16:04 <Lasty> "burst of speed" feels like something a charging minotaur might do
21:16:47 <gammafunk> yeah, although you are breaking PLAYER-MONSTER SYMMETRY
21:16:49 <gammafunk> !lm * current br.enter=lab / lg:br=lab
21:17:19 <gammafunk> which is not a real concern of course, but we must always pause if only briefly before we break the sacred symmetries
21:17:52 <gammafunk> rip sequell
21:18:07 <gammafunk> I'm guessing the death rate in labs is probably a lot lower than in ice caves and maybe volcanoes
21:18:11 <Sequell> 254/5749 milestones for * (current br.enter=lab): N=254/5750 (4.42%)
21:19:05 <gammafunk> !lm * current br.enter=icecv|volcano|lab o=% s=br / lg:br=$noun
21:19:36 <Lasty> yeah, I would think so
21:19:42 <gammafunk> I'm not sure what the placement depths of labs is, but I believe it's pretty similar to ice cave and volcano
21:20:22 <hellmonk> I don't think you can get "late" labs in lairbranches/elf like you can with icecave
21:20:32 <gammafunk> I guess if you feel mino is too weak, I'd tend towards speed 12 since it will probably get more kills overall
21:20:35 <Sequell> 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * current br.enter=icecv|volcano|lab o=% s=br / lg:br=$noun
21:20:50 <gammafunk> i guess I could be wrong about that; I have a feeling swift would only help you kill low-AC characters that kill ranged
21:20:58 <gammafunk> whereas speed12 is more likely to help against all chars
21:21:09 <gammafunk> !lm * current br.enter=icecv|volcano|lab o=% s=br / lg:br=$noun
21:21:13 <gammafunk> obey me, Sequell!
21:21:17 <Lasty> yeah, let's go with speed 12 rather than half-measures
21:21:35 <hellmonk> make it speed 20 and call it a minotaur shrike
21:21:35 <Sequell> 1352/16158 milestones for * (current br.enter=icecv|volcano|lab): 782/7030x IceCv [11.12%], 315/3377x Volcano [9.33%], 255/5751x Lab [4.43%]
21:22:17 <Lasty> hellmonk: good idea. I'm adding AF_ACID
21:22:35 <hellmonk> cool
21:22:35 <gammafunk> Lasty: yeah, looks like 11% ice caves, 9% volcanoes, 4.5% labs
21:22:35 <Lasty> ouch
21:22:36 <hellmonk> make sure to credit me
21:22:48 <gammafunk> since you can prove anything with a sequell query, as we both fully know, this is conclusive that labs need a buff
21:23:07 <hellmonk> the legendary game design genius hellman mcmonk
21:23:14 <gammafunk> give the minotaur an amulet of harm imo
21:23:36 <gammafunk> that's artefact and has a bunch of resists and invocable rage and invis
21:23:39 <gammafunk> *evocable
21:24:48 <Lasty> lol
21:24:55 <Lasty> and also gives speeed
21:25:17 <Lasty> int num_items = 8 + random2avg(12, 2);
21:25:24 <Lasty> Man, that's more items than I realized.
21:29:17 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.22-a0-146-g1a64493: Change labyrinth risk-reward: buff minotaurs 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1a6449310ee9
21:29:17 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.22-a0-147-gfdd7f25: Change labyrinth risk-reward: reduce loot 10(41 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fdd7f25fa8ae
21:30:08 <gammafunk> Lasty: can't wait to hear reddit complain about these changes and say that devs don't even play crawl
21:30:30 <hellmonk> same
21:30:54 <hellmonk> wasnt it that you two play crawl but you are too busy being followers to the "elite"
21:30:56 <Lasty> they're probably right
21:30:58 <hellmonk> and none of the other ones play crawl
21:31:12 <hellmonk> also can i be the elite
21:31:13 <gammafunk> something like that, but maybe I was included in those who don't play crawl as well since
21:31:19 <Lasty> well, as the representative of the elite that's here, are we doing it right?
21:31:27 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp won current s=name
21:31:28 <Sequell> 36 games for devteamnp (won current): 15x Lasty, 9x elliptic, 3x wheals, 3x gammafunk, 2x Medar, 2x advil, Neil, amalloy
21:31:35 <gammafunk> as you see lasty plays more than the rest of us
21:31:46 <Lasty> !kw current
21:31:47 <Sequell> Keyword: current => cv>=0.21
21:31:55 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp won recent s=name
21:31:56 <Sequell> 68 games for devteamnp (won recent): 25x Lasty, 17x elliptic, 7x gammafunk, 4x Medar, 3x wheals, 3x Neil, 3x advil, 2x itsmu, 2x amalloy, dpeg, MarvinPA
21:31:57 <hellmonk> idk, the thing I dislike about lab is doing the maze
21:31:59 <Lasty> I played a ton in the tourney
21:32:17 <gammafunk> yeah my rework would remove the manual maze explore
21:32:24 <hellmonk> if new risk/reward makes it too dangerous I can start skipping the portal so I guess its moderate improvement
21:32:25 <gammafunk> well and the maze itself and the weird map amnesia
21:32:39 <Lasty> hellmonk: I think in the long run it makes sense to fix that, but this will at least make people who skip the portal feel better about it
21:33:23 <hellmonk> yeah, I'm not going to complain about a difficulty change since the mino tends to be pretty easy on average
21:35:31 <Lasty> I never have trouble solving the maze so I don't particularly care about it, but I recognize that it's weird to force people to play the minigame
21:40:35 <advil> is alphaeus the same person as shadedknight? that username (HeyVSauce) comes from a report on tavern from alphaeus
21:47:32 <gammafunk> no, they play as shadedknight on cbro
21:47:47 <gammafunk> but go by reeces on discord; however might be the same reporter
21:47:55 <gammafunk> advil: you can ask reeces on discord if you want
21:48:01 <gammafunk> that's shadedknight
21:51:50 <gammafunk> johnstein: tavern report about the same user, I think: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25079
22:09:39 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.22-a0-147-gfdd7f25fa8 (34)
22:16:49 <Lightli> gammafunk: If you remove everything about the labyrinth but the actual minotaur and loot, why have it exist as a floor
22:17:16 <gammafunk> I don't know what that means
22:19:27 <Lightli> you were talking about the rework would remove the maze and map amnesia
22:19:49 <Lightli> which is 99% of labyrinths currently
22:19:59 <Lasty> We should probably remove every level that doesn't have maprot or amnesia
22:21:53 <gammafunk> agree
22:22:08 <gammafunk> if a level doesn't have a maze and map amnesia, why does it exist
22:22:34 <gammafunk> i'd probably rename the portal with this rework though
22:22:41 <Lasty> "Totally normal level"
22:22:48 <gammafunk> Labyrinth wouldn't make much sense
22:22:51 <gammafunk> heh, yeah
22:22:58 <gammafunk> but "Gauntlet" might work?
22:23:05 <Lasty> Gauntlet would definitely work
22:23:18 <Lasty> dpeg will be so sad if there's no labyrinth of any kind tho
22:23:20 <gammafunk> I mean it'd still be sort of a maze in this proposal, but not really
22:23:25 <gammafunk> well there's still tar:7
22:23:34 <gammafunk> that awful maze level
22:23:39 <Lasty> heh true
22:23:44 <Lasty> spectral minotaurs
22:23:48 <gammafunk> good idea
22:28:31 <Lightli> I assume minotaurs remain relevant in this rework
22:31:07 <Lightli> otherwise you know that someone will unironically advocate for removing minotaurs as a species and replacing them with mountain dwarves
22:37:10 <gammafunk> for someone who constantly checks the plan you didn't read the conversation very carefully, Lightli