00:29:51 !tell greensnark someone at the roguelike celebration said he organizes some kind of postgres convention, and he thought a talk about how Sequell works (the database format, !lg query language, whatever) would be very well received. if you might be interesed in giving one i can send you his contact info 00:29:53 amalloy: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 00:32:32 ok this is an interesting depths vault 00:32:48 the armour shop has mundane -2 and -1 armours 00:32:57 the "jerky" shop has meat rations, lol 00:33:15 and the " Miraculous Elixirs" shop has 10+ potions of mutation 00:33:24 which in current version are extremely valuable 00:33:39 probably not intended that way 00:38:56 huge stocks of !mut are not really super valuable imo 00:39:01 unless you plan to play badly 00:39:12 you can scum with them 00:39:36 and still have plenty left over for bad luck with oofs or whatever 00:39:43 you can play roulette with them... 00:39:50 sure 00:39:57 in most games you only have a handful for that 01:15:36 -!- tat is now known as Guest41774 01:19:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-442-g848f44b (34) 01:53:32 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 01:54:33 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 01:57:30 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-442-g848f44b 02:52:52 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-442-g848f44b 03:11:35 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-442-g848f44b (34) 03:32:13 Wrong portal message at stairs 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11279 by Yermak 04:32:31 advil: nice work on that font rendering bug! 04:51:15 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:47:15 Visual glitch with range missiles sticking on the screen 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11280 by Yermak 09:18:32 I'm trying to set up my crawl server from scratch - anyone got any idea why this is happening? https://pastebin.com/iBfmqwHT 09:18:44 Step 6. in this guide: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:server:setting_up_dgamelaunch_and_webtiles 09:21:17 Further debug info: https://pastebin.com/bxPGfbrV 09:40:59 Nevermind, fixed it and updated the documentation 09:42:08 a missing package (flex)? 09:42:14 Ge0ff: yeah 09:42:51 I realised what was up when I saw LEX = : in the makefile 09:54:46 http://prntscr.com/h9gqq6 10:01:58 Morgues are now up https://underhound.eu/crawl/ 10:11:34 |amethyst: can you change logfile-reading so that it no longer reads from port 82? I've set things up here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/meta/ 10:11:38 oops. 10:11:42 !tell |amethyst can you change logfile-reading so that it no longer reads from port 82? I've set things up here: https://underhound.eu/crawl/meta/ 10:11:43 TZer0: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 10:11:46 There we go. 10:30:48 <|amethyst> TZer0: I'll change scoring 10:30:48 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:39:28 <|amethyst> TZer0: okay, scoring daemon is restarted, will take an hour or two to rebuild player pages and finish the first update 10:39:42 <|amethyst> TZer0: it was on 81 before, not 82, btw 11:41:42 <|amethyst> TZer0: I assume it's also going to be https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue and /crawl/ttyrec once they're there? 11:42:28 <|amethyst> TZer0: also, I just updated the sequell config in git, but I imagine snark still needs to update the running bot? 11:59:38 hey |amethyst 12:00:04 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: hi 12:00:17 Good to see our time zones line up 12:00:23 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: I didn't get a chance to read the backlog, can you fill me in on the discussions so far? 12:00:47 There hasn't been a lot in the way of discussion, I made a writeup for a possible direction for WJC 12:00:53 Gammafunk has uploaded it to the wiki 12:01:26 But we were mostly waiting for your take on it, since I wrote it trying to go in line with what you were considering for the god 12:01:34 hopefully we can make some variation of it work 12:01:57 <|amethyst> where at? 12:02:45 <|amethyst> I don't see it on recent changes 12:03:17 <|amethyst> oh, I'm looking at the wrong wiki 12:05:23 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-442-g848f44b (34) 12:05:56 sorry, let me fetch that link 12:06:22 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Wu-Jian-Council-Changes 12:12:42 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: I assume pin just prevents movement, not attack? 12:12:53 exactly 12:13:04 <|amethyst> I like these, though 12:13:17 <|amethyst> I think 120% on lunge is small 12:16:08 <|amethyst> hm, I'm not sure how whirlwind lets you get one tile of distance 12:16:45 Ru sacrifice mutations duplicate when extended by transient mutations. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11281 by NormalPerson7 12:16:45 I think I've been quite bad at explaining it :) 12:16:45 <|amethyst> you do the whirlwind move and pin a monster, but that means you ended adjacent to it 12:16:45 the duration of the pin effect would start right after the monster has moved 12:16:50 so in some way, it lasts two "turns" 12:17:04 I just wanted to express it that way to avoid indefinite stacking 12:17:14 if it just gave, say, 20 auts of pin, then it would stack up and that's not the intention 12:17:25 but rather that there are 10 auts left of pin time after the monster had its counterattack 12:17:41 <|amethyst> it doesn't have to stack up 12:18:00 <|amethyst> you can say 20 aut of pin, and that it caps at 20 12:18:11 <|amethyst> so just "set the pin duration to 20" instead of adding 12:18:51 gotcha 12:18:52 that works 12:19:04 <|amethyst> also, I'd rather not do "measured by your movement speed" there... other than Chei, there's not much that gets better when you are slower 12:22:45 <|amethyst> re wall jump, maybe it makes sense to make it a delay so it actually counts as two moves 12:23:34 <|amethyst> that would also allow some flexibility in deciding where the two turns are spent 12:23:53 <|amethyst> e.g. you can spend the first turn at your source location and the second turn at the target 12:24:40 <|amethyst> 20-aut actions are weird because you perform the whole thing at once, then (normal-speed) monsters get two opportunities to advance/swing 12:26:27 <|amethyst> also, as long as score is based on "turns" instead of AUT, you don't want speedrunners/highscorers using walljump repeatedly to increase score (like breadswinging, except it moves you) :) 12:27:31 <|amethyst> OTOH, maybe the ability would be too unattractive if you took hits before you got the benefit 12:31:36 Well 12:31:37 <|amethyst> On lunge, I'm not sure where the 120% came from... repeated lunge/pin combo would need to be lunge 120%, move adjacent 80%, back up (monster pinned), repeat, so that's 200% of attacks in 3 moves 12:31:55 Sorry, I was only half online 12:31:57 now I can pay attention 12:31:58 :) 12:32:25 so about wall jump, the front loading is meant to be the tradeoff for the ability 12:32:39 I'm not saying it's the right solution, but I was thinking of giving it a relatively niche use 12:33:03 <|amethyst> when you say "front loading"? 12:33:03 niche being that it's good for alpha striking a monster or group of monsters in exchange for the risk of more burst damage back 12:33:06 exactly 12:33:11 <|amethyst> ah 12:33:18 if you allow the flexibility of staging it, then the risk is gone and it becomes mandatory 12:33:25 <|amethyst> so front-loading outgoing damage, back-loading incoming damage 12:33:29 exactly 12:33:33 <|amethyst> what's that trading off against? 12:33:56 <|amethyst> because that's strictly better than (say) alternating outgoing, incoming, outgoing, incoming 12:33:58 You are losing fine control, in exchange for the possibility of eliminating the threat completely before they attack back 12:34:12 it is better, yes, but if it doesn't work well, two incoming turns of damage may be lethal 12:34:24 and you're probably in the middle of a pack :) 12:34:37 <|amethyst> ah, so the downside is that you don't get to decide in the middle to stop attacking 12:34:40 exactly 12:34:45 it's a single execution that may go poorly 12:34:57 barring Serpent's Lash, which would take the risk away for a piety price 12:35:37 <|amethyst> I still think it's better to count it as two turns, regardless of when the counterattacks happen 12:35:58 yeah that's fair, I don't remember enough of the back end to comment on that 12:36:09 there is a secondary tradeoff here, which is that you need to be careful with your positioning 12:36:17 if you land only one tile away from a monster, you made a mistake 12:36:25 since you'll hit nothing but they will be able to advance and hit you once 12:36:49 <|amethyst> what do you hit with wall jump? 12:36:59 <|amethyst> the proposed version 12:37:06 1 tile aoe around you 12:37:12 <|amethyst> when you land? 12:37:16 yes 12:37:41 so like the old one, aside from the higher AUT count 12:37:49 and no damage modifiers 12:38:13 <|amethyst> and no special bonus for axes? 12:38:31 so far, axe cleave in WJC has not worked with everything except lunge 12:38:42 I considered making cleave work with lunge enough of an axe incentive, because you can actually hit a monster twice 12:38:51 if you whirlwind against it, while lunging to something else and cleaving 12:39:10 s/everything/anything 12:39:17 <|amethyst> don't all the things let you hit monsters twice because of the attack # compensation? 12:39:22 oh sure 12:39:25 you're right 12:39:30 <|amethyst> but I guess that one is guaranteed twice 12:39:35 I was commenting on a 10 aut move, 10 aut attack situation yep 12:40:07 <|amethyst> I'm not sure how well randomly rounded attack numbers work, but no one's complained about those yet so 12:40:39 <|amethyst> An alternative might be to make lunge and whirlwind take attack speed rather than movement speed, but that's kind of weird 12:41:21 Getting to the rounded attack numbers was a long journey :), before (not sure if you got around to playing these versions) attack damage scaled with the speed ratios 12:41:37 <|amethyst> yeah, scaling damage sounds problematic 12:41:37 that didn't work very well since it really helped slow races with fast weapons get through armor 12:41:44 yep, naga stabbers were fun tho 12:41:51 I've never seen as many exclamation marks 12:42:16 rounded attack numbers are nice because they do not help stabbers that much, since only the first attack gets the stabbing bonus 12:42:24 I'm open to other methods however 12:42:30 but this one seems to work 12:42:53 One thing I considered was making it deterministic by keeping a running modulo 12:43:14 but I didn't like that either since good players would exploit it 12:43:15 <|amethyst> then players have to keep track of that too 12:43:16 <|amethyst> yeah 12:43:23 by "missing" against a rat a couple times and then lunging an orc 12:43:50 <|amethyst> what do you think about my suggestion of scaling the martial moves to attack speed? 12:43:57 <|amethyst> then there's only one "attack" 12:44:11 what aspect of them would you scale? 12:44:11 <|amethyst> (except for wall jump), but it's faster the better you are with your weapon 12:44:16 <|amethyst> the time 12:44:27 I'm not sure how that would look 12:44:32 after all, martial attacks trigger off movement 12:44:39 so you are saying that your move speed would change near enemies? 12:44:44 <|amethyst> so for a human with mindelay battleaxe, it takes 0.7 to do that move instead of 1.0 12:44:47 <|amethyst> yeah 12:45:00 hm, that's interesting, I never thought of that one 12:45:04 <|amethyst> and for a centaur with untrained battleaxe, it would take 2.0 12:45:08 there are some strange implications however 12:45:19 <|amethyst> yeah, I'm not sure if it would be a good idea 12:45:21 one thing I'd worry about is this: 12:45:28 you are in a pack, wielding a battleaxe, and want to escape 12:45:34 you then swap to your dagger so you move faster 12:45:39 seems strange 12:46:09 <|amethyst> hm 12:47:27 Is there anything particular that you find problematic with scaling number of attacks? I'm not opposed to changing it, but I need to know the angle you're coming from 12:47:54 <|amethyst> more attacks per player action = more message window spam :) 12:47:54 Oh, good point 12:47:54 <|amethyst> and harder to keep track of what happened 12:48:14 There has always been some degree of what I was describing before (about Wall Jump) in WJC in the sense that you give up control over the fight 12:48:26 if you have a mindelay dagger and lunge with it, you're basically tabbing thrice 12:48:33 <|amethyst> Yeah, I can't think of a way to avoid the "swap weapons to move better" problem 12:48:56 but it's the same message window spam than tabbing three times I suppose, just condensed in one action 12:50:46 Oh and something you said I didn't comment on 12:50:48 > On lunge, I'm not sure where the 120% came from... repeated lunge/pin combo would need to be lunge 120%, move adjacent 80%, back up (monster pinned), repeat, so that's 200% of attacks in 3 moves 12:51:23 Yeah that's right, It would be equivalent to tab in the sense that the monster has also only been able to attack you for two turns 12:51:41 but then you'd have no reason to be doing that instead of tab, unless you wanted to reposition for something else, which is more or less the goal 12:52:10 If you raise Lunge a bit more, you have the issue that this "triangle" motion is better than tabbing and there is no reason not to do it, if you want to play optimally, and we're back to square one 12:53:06 I came to 120% by setting whirlwind's 80% first, which seemed about right for the benefit you get, and then giving Lunge the converse. Any combination like 70% and 130% could work, but we'd need to be careful not to overnerf whirlwind 12:53:19 <|amethyst> but it would need to be 220% to be equivalent to tabbing 12:53:24 <|amethyst> in the absence of other monsters 12:53:28 how so? 12:53:45 <|amethyst> because you have to spend a turn to move away from the monster, and then you're not getting an attack 12:53:48 <|amethyst> oh I see 12:53:56 <|amethyst> because you're not getting attacked either 12:53:58 how can I feel a craving for dungeon's cuisine when I'm a mummy? 12:53:59 exactly 12:54:23 so if your base damage is 20, you do 12 first, then 8, (meanwhile taking 20 damage from the monster), walk back for no damage from anyone 12:54:30 sorry, if your base damage is 10* 12:54:36 <|amethyst> Tux[Qyou]: It's a horrible unsatisfying feeling 12:54:55 |amethyst: it's apparently not 12:55:38 <|amethyst> Tux[Qyou]: I don't mean that's what the message says :) 12:55:57 <|amethyst> Tux[Qyou]: just that you can have a craving for physiologically impossible things :) 12:59:35 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: my concern with 120% is that it doesn't feel like much more than a regular attack 12:59:52 what was the number right now? It's been a while 13:01:31 <|amethyst> 160% if distracted, 130% if not 13:01:37 I see 13:01:46 Well, at 130%, people were getting good use out of it 13:01:53 maybe 130%-70% is the sweet spot 13:02:00 <|amethyst> maybe 120% is okay 13:02:09 <|amethyst> it is still a "free" attack after all 13:02:18 <|amethyst> unless you had a polearm 13:02:20 I just think it's important to keep that symmetry so the optimal path isn't going in triangles 13:03:10 <|amethyst> hm, triangle polearm strat 13:03:33 <|amethyst> get 180% attacks while taking only one move's worth of attacks 13:03:40 yeah polearms have always been more exploitable with WJC, but then again they always are if you can get distance at will 13:04:20 <|amethyst> anyway, I personally don't care that much if WJC players need to make weird dances to optimise their attacks 13:05:01 <|amethyst> as long as that doesn't make it optimal to take WJC instead of whoever else 13:05:22 well said :) 13:05:28 After some time out of the game, I've changed my view a bit 13:05:44 I used to say WJC was all about movement and that you shouldn't be even thinking about tabbing when picking it 13:06:08 But right now, what I see as the best outcome is having it so tabbing and dancing is roughly equal for most of the time 13:06:20 with punctual situations where you get a better outcome from "dancing" 13:06:46 <|amethyst> hm 13:06:47 it can be subtle, just a whirlwind+lunge combo here, a good wall jump there, and a very cheap Serpent's Lash would be in charge of pushing the power level up 13:07:06 so if you really want to ramp the effectiveness of the martial attacks up, you mix them up with Serpent's Lash 13:07:15 <|amethyst> if lash is cheap I could see getting rid of HoE 13:07:27 <|amethyst> (still thinking of the possibility of moving that to Usk) 13:07:37 Well 13:08:00 I can't comment on whether HoE is a better match for Uskayaw, I don't play Uskayaw much, so I can only talk about it in the context of WJC 13:08:17 <|amethyst> I have to admit I haven't used it 13:08:24 The role that it holds in WJC is forcing you to enter full dance mode for a very significant reward 13:08:40 not only that, but rewarding you for actively hitting as many monsters at once as possible 13:08:48 there isn't really anything else in the WJC kit that rewards this kind of reckless play style 13:09:15 <|amethyst> that's the thing, that feels more like Uskayaw playstyle 13:09:20 could be 13:09:30 I'm not opposed to moving it to uskaway, but I think there should be a replacement 13:09:35 because it does have a role in WJC 13:10:46 I like that it puts you in a situation where you *have* to think ahead in terms of jumps and tricky moves to keep it going 13:10:56 and how it works with Serpent's Lash to help you guarantee you always have a path 13:11:27 An alternative for WJC could be this: 13:12:03 A "combo meter" that counts the number of consecutive different martial attacks. If you reach 5, you get an active that costs a good chunk of piety and deals a lot of damage or similar 13:12:14 <|amethyst> hm 13:12:22 <|amethyst> that's even more like Uskayaw :) 13:12:34 well, there is a difference 13:12:44 Uskayaw is almost entirely AoE based 13:12:54 while this would be more about precision, you wouldn't have to hit multiple enemies anymore 13:13:09 just being able to seamlessly chain wall jump-lunge-whirlwind-lunge-whirlwind for example, which isn't trivial 13:13:19 and then you get access to the "secret technique" 13:13:29 which tbh could take any shape that moves the god away from Uskaway's space 13:13:52 <|amethyst> hm, good point, but unfortunately what about "dance diagonally around a single enemy" :( 13:13:52 then it won't work 13:13:56 <|amethyst> oh, different 13:13:57 as they only count if they are different 13:14:09 consecutively different at least 13:14:31 <|amethyst> that could be kind of neat 13:14:43 for example, you need 2 wall jumps, 2 lunges and 2 whirlwinds without repeating any 13:14:48 <|amethyst> I'll think about it, though you made a good case for keeping HoE on WJC too 13:15:12 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: oh, I was thinking "no two repeated in a row" 13:15:18 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: which is simpler to keep track of 13:15:20 yeah yeah me too 13:15:29 this last point was just an alternative 13:17:18 Some variation: 13:17:46 Ultimate: Every monster in the vicinity that you have whirlwinded, wall jumped and lunged gets massive damage (at a piety cost) 13:18:08 cost based on the number of monsters 13:18:25 that would be cool and thematic... Internal damage death punch kind of thing 13:21:10 could be 5 piety to use, 2 piety for each affected monster, so it isn't quite linear 13:21:37 and also rewards precision instead of Usk-style indiscriminate AoE 13:23:40 There's not great need to move HoE to usk if the ability fits on WJC 13:24:02 I more wanted to do this so we could use the parts of WJC that were more liked at the time if we were going to remove it 13:24:19 and it would be a good fit there, but it's also fine if it fits the now-existing WJC 13:24:49 MPA raised some concerns about the actual implementation of HoE on a technical level, but don't remembe what those are 13:25:03 and that's probably less of a concern compared to getting the god's design nailed down, anyhow 13:25:35 Oh HoE's code is a bit shit, I give you that 13:25:44 thankfully it's quite small 13:26:05 I just wanted a non linear slaying increase/decrease and I probably didn't express it the best way possible ;) 13:26:24 I can clean it up if need be 13:32:36 also "Uskayaw is almost entirely AOE based" is not really true 13:33:58 Fair enough 13:34:04 More like... dealing a lot of damage quick I guess 13:34:09 which is easier against multiple targets 13:34:38 in any case, the ultimate ability, while necessary I think, isn't the particular bit of WJC that I'm most fussed about 13:35:06 But I do think my proposal could at least be a good attempt to fix the relationship between all three martial moves and Serpent's Lash, so it may be worth a try 13:37:17 <|amethyst> I like the proposal as written, with the caveat that wall jump should somehow count as two player turns (which both solves the serpent's lash issue and prevents silly turncount scumming) 13:37:43 <|amethyst> hopefully you're going to implement most of it so I can sit on my ass and take credit 13:37:51 <|amethyst> I am a *professor* after all, not a grad student 13:38:32 <|amethyst> (well, "assistant professor*" with an asterisk) 13:39:58 <|amethyst> hm, on wall jump ev 13:40:09 <|amethyst> should the duration depend on the number of attacks you made? 13:40:13 <|amethyst> or just the strength? 13:40:49 <|amethyst> One possibility is to have the two decoupled, with a prop to keep track of the size of the bonus 13:42:11 <|amethyst> another would be to gave, say, (20 aut * #attacks) duration (extending if greater, rather than adding to, existing duration) and make the bonus equal to (auts remaining / 10) 13:42:31 <|amethyst> s/to gave/to give/ 13:42:50 <|amethyst> but that's quadratic scaling in a sense 13:43:27 <|amethyst> whatever you do, there's still a benefit to wall-jumping periodically (at the very least, when the duration expires), but not constantly 13:46:06 you're not a real professor to me until you manage to win a VSBe 13:46:33 yeah, I just got done reading all the backlog 13:46:37 <|amethyst> oh, I heard US News and World Report was terrible at ranking CS programs, is that why? 13:47:26 because the ranking doesn't properly include DCSS wins of VSBe? 13:47:27 probably 13:48:53 re the EV bonus, SteelNeuron had mentioned maybe wall jump doesn't need it, not sure if that's still the case 13:49:31 oh yeah, this is because serpent's lash might get its cost lowered and become avail earlier 13:49:39 so your incentive to wall jump would be a bit greater 13:57:09 it sounds like having attacks be randomized/averaged based on the move speed is working out best overall 14:00:41 |amethyst: fixed. 14:00:56 <|amethyst> TZer0: morgues and ttyrecs you mean? 14:01:06 <|amethyst> TZer0: they're at the URLs I mentioned? 14:01:14 Yeah 14:01:17 I broke things when I moved them around 14:01:23 See https://underhound.eu/crawl/meta/ 14:01:32 TZer0: figure out if any data loss happened? 14:01:33 And https://underhound.eu/crawl/ttyrec/ etc. 14:01:42 Very little, I'm going to go over things later 14:01:47 May be missing some recordings 14:01:52 Maybe a morgue-file here or there 14:01:59 cool 14:02:01 Logfiles/scoring are all good 14:02:27 I guess if a save went missing it would just be "bye bye that game" and not really cause any headaches 14:03:19 Right now I'm trying to figure out passthrough in my VM 14:03:30 Once that is done.. the server should be good to go 14:07:10 gammafunk: I think it is very unlikely that someone actually lost a game - especially one they cared about/remember right now 14:09:21 ??cue 14:09:21 cue[1/5]: CUE (underhound.eu) is currently offline until the server can be replaced. As of 2017-10-29, a server has been ordered to arrive in 1-5 days, and it will need time to be configured, so there may be a week or more of down time. 14:10:59 !learn set cue[1] CUE (underhound.eu) is currently offline due to a disk failure, but should be back online in the next week. See status updates here: https://underhound.eu/2017/11/04/serverstatus/ 14:10:59 cue[1/5]: CUE (underhound.eu) is currently offline due to a disk failure, but should be back online in the next week. See status updates here: https://underhound.eu/2017/11/04/serverstatus/ 14:12:59 <|amethyst> TZer0: btw, your web site's header still uses :81 14:13:10 <|amethyst> TZer0: at https://underhound.eu/2017/11/04/serverstatus/ 14:13:38 Ah, will fix 14:18:26 |amethyst: how do I debug dgamelaunch again? 14:19:51 <|amethyst> TZer0: it makes a log file, in the usual config in the chroot root directory, with terse indecipherable messages 14:20:05 <|amethyst> then you look up those messages in the source code to see what the actual problem was :/ 14:22:24 I seem to have identified the problem anyway 14:22:32 For some reason my passthrough works fine for root, but not for other users. 14:23:05 <|amethyst> passthrough? 14:23:26 Yeah, what I've done is that I'm running crawl inside of a vm with some directories mapped from the host 14:23:41 Such as morgues 14:24:17 <|amethyst> ah, and the permissions (or the VM-guest shared filesystem implementation) are such that only root can access those? 14:24:30 It is supposed to work for anyone right now 14:24:35 I'm looking at the perms and they're 777 14:25:56 <|amethyst> the shared-FS thing might not actually use perms, or might have some other issue 14:26:05 <|amethyst> does the user that's running the VMs have access? 14:26:20 <|amethyst> (and which VM?) 14:27:04 QEMU/KVM 14:28:41 <|amethyst> ah, my only experience is with virtualbox 14:53:03 I resolved it 14:53:13 But now I'm getting other kinds of errors 14:53:14 So that's fun. 14:53:18 -!- aditya1 is now known as aditya 14:53:42 https://pastebin.com/00Qikzj0 14:53:44 Hmm 14:55:13 Do you think this may be a problem with locks vs. having this specific folder in a share? 15:02:57 holy damn, I'm actually playing in terminal now 15:04:28 still getting the bad channel message though 15:15:01 that's a version mismatch somewhere 15:15:32 Yeah, that doesn't sound unlikely. 15:16:38 what version are you playing? I vaguely recall that being a thing in some version 15:17:01 This was latest from like a couple of weeks ago 15:17:20 What kind of mismatch are we talking about? Compile libs. vs current libs on system? 15:18:58 I mean when prayer was removed, some startup messages weren't adjusted to fit? 15:19:20 and refer to the pray channel which was removed when prayer was 15:19:24 I think 15:30:34 <|amethyst> hm 15:31:04 I do recall this being a thing for a bit, I vaguely recall it having to do with startup messaging 15:31:25 but I didn't spot it checking the log messages 15:31:35 <|amethyst> I'm not seeing "pray:" anywhere, particularly in dat/descript/ 15:32:15 <|amethyst> does /crawl-master/crawl-git-291f19a919/saves/cache.0.21-a0-404-g291f19a/db/ have reasonable-looking permissions? 15:32:28 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: anything you want me to work on? 15:40:36 Sorry, I got distracted 15:40:37 again 15:40:49 On the topic of EV, I'm leaning more towards it not needing the bonus, it seems more elegant that way 15:41:05 even without the bonus, there are still situations where you'd want to use it even without Serpent's Lash 15:41:28 On the topic of two-turn Wall Jump, I'm not fussed either way but I'm not sure how I'd implement that 15:41:42 I don't think I have the back-end knowledge to do that 15:41:53 while just increasing the AUT count for the action is comparatively easier 15:42:00 lastly, on actually getting work done to implement it 15:42:43 this is a bit more touchy because the primary reason why I stopped working on DCSS altogether is that I realize the unhealthy amount of time I was spending on it (WJC alone was 400+ hours of work, spectating and testing) and realized I didn't really have the time 15:42:52 This doesn't mean I wont' work on these changes though, I'm willing to do that 15:43:36 But, it does mean that in order for me to work them, I need at least some guarantee that they will be tested in trunk. Last time we had a conversation like this (back then, it was about some changes that Lasty and I had been discussing/proposing) I put the hours, opened the PR, and it was blocked on the ensuing PR discussion 15:43:48 without ever being tested 15:44:28 So I'd rather make sure that all the discussing is done before writing it, because I really can't justify the amount of work that went into fleshing out every variation that did not make it to trunk 15:44:29 hope it's not an unreasonable expectation 15:47:06 (oh and btw, if increasing the turn count by +2 instead of +1 when using the wall jump ability counts, that should be easy, I'm just not sure how to segment it into two actual, complete turns) 15:47:08 yeah, there is at least one dev (|amethyst) who's behind the current direction and I think elliptic and I (the other two who have some time right now to look at things) are willing to compromise on the design of the god if some improvement can be made 15:47:33 elliptic recommended removal to me (and I agreed) when it didn't seem like anyone had time/interest to work on things more 15:47:56 I can help out with feedback and code as well, so certainly getting an improved WJC tested in trunk shouldn't be a problem 15:48:39 It would be good if, when you think you've got the major changes in a near-final state, elliptic took a look at them (I haven't heard anything really problematic with proposals so far) 15:48:58 cool, that sounds good to me 15:49:14 And just to be clear I'm not asking for any sort of guarantee that they'll be well received after the trunk testing 15:49:21 only testing can proof it 15:49:40 I'm just making sure that all the pre-trunk discussion is closed before writing the code 15:49:40 I think the main thrust of elliptic's complaint was how, even if you allow a god that requires these movement decisions, the two movement abilities didn't introduce very good decisions 15:50:22 making whirlwind attractive to use and making it have some predictability in terms of the player planning their moves should help 15:51:15 and yeah, testing is great, but where the magic happens is mostly in the design/planning; it's easy to get into a cycle of "just change it, then see what players say", but that can be a way of just trying to push the hard work onto players 15:52:41 obviously people do release entire games around "just change it, let players yell at you", so I suppose it has its place 15:53:01 but we like to maintain this pleasant fiction of "we make good designs in DCSS" :) 15:53:36 :) well then, I'll put aside some hours to work on it 15:53:41 as soon as I readjust to the DCSS codebase 15:57:37 <|amethyst> TBH, I was happy with the version before the wall-jump targetting restrictions 15:57:58 <|amethyst> but I guess we should make gf and (curve)ic happy 15:58:25 <|amethyst> I'm not hard to please 15:59:22 <|amethyst> FR: bring back player Twisted Resurrection, Evaporate, Ely piety-for-pacification, and meleebug, so I can win again 16:01:50 <|amethyst> (also, buff Trog; surely e should guarantee a win for VS) 16:37:46 |amethyst: just think how good the game will be if a chess grandmaster is happy with it 16:37:57 and if a twitch celebrity is happy with it 18:34:46 fartboss (L22 GnWz) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. 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