01:23:50 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-426-g98080a9 (34)
01:08:44 <johnstein> sorta random question, but is the ./docs folder required to be able to play the game?
01:09:02 <johnstein> i.e do some of the in-game menus rely on them being there?
01:16:15 <johnstein> there's about 17 GB of data/doc files in the crawl install dir in the chroot
01:20:15 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-426-g98080a9 (34)
01:22:02 <geekosaur> pretty sure it does rely on some of them being there, but not necessarily all. I think quickstart.pdf and crawl_manual.rst can go, along with the develop, obsolete, and template dirs
01:23:38 <geekosaur> also, I might suggest that the changelog could be truncated at the previous stable release
01:27:19 <geekosaur> many of the other files could do with links across versions when they haven't changed; see rsync's --link-dest option
01:30:01 <johnstein> bummer.
01:30:39 <johnstein> I'd rather not cherry pick files. it would be an easy find -exec rm thing if I could remove them all
01:31:32 <johnstein> 24GB of morgues
01:31:37 <geekosaur> also it's only the help menu that cares about them
01:31:39 <johnstein> 16 GB of doc files
01:31:47 <johnstein> 10 GB of ttyrecs
01:31:59 <johnstein> most of which are zipped (only contain the last 30 days too)
01:33:08 <johnstein> 11 GB of binaries. all but the last week have been stripped (100MB -> 10MB)
01:33:24 <johnstein> 54 GB in the install dir
01:33:52 <johnstein> 1056 versions installed
01:34:29 <johnstein> wonder if the clean-trunks script deletes the unused binaries (no saved games) AND the install dir
01:35:54 <johnstein> ^status
01:35:54 <Rotatell> 18 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=89% (135GB) | RAM usage=38% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 01:35:54 up 247 days,  7:14,  1 user,  load average: 0.47, 0.55, 0.46 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org
01:36:16 <johnstein> the server is rapidly approaching a big crunch. I'm going to be forced to address it soon
01:36:35 <johnstein> I was only able to recover about 7% disk space tonight
01:38:52 <geekosaur> 1056 installed versions seems excessive
01:39:39 <geekosaur> I'd be thinking of purging any (non-admin) account not used in the past year, then salvaging the newly unused versions
01:41:30 <|amethyst> don't need to purge accounts for that, just saves
01:42:15 <|amethyst> or can move all the saves since the last compat break (which would be everything non-experimental on CBRO) into crawl-latest/saves
01:43:20 <|amethyst> a few will be unintentionally broken (crash on load probably) by that, they can be removed when noticed
01:52:13 <johnstein> looks like 30-35% of the saves directory are milestones and logs
01:53:12 <johnstein> with another 35% or so cache folders
01:53:26 <johnstein> so the saves are only like 25-30% of the problem
01:54:17 <johnstein> well, this is a stable install I'm looking at
01:58:02 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-426-g98080a9
02:54:32 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-426-g98080a9
03:19:57 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-426-g98080a9 (34)
03:42:54 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
03:43:56 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
03:48:34 -!- rchandra is now known as rc_zzz
05:16:39 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:07:42 <TZer0> |amethyst: I'm going to have to set up crawl again on my server. Would you suggest setting it up in a VM as last time or do you think it is sufficient to just do a chroot?
09:31:25 <Yermak> Are all altars guaranteed on D:2-9 or D:1-9?
09:33:22 <gammafunk> I believe it's 2-9
10:53:36 <|amethyst> TZer0:  Security-wise, if all the server is doing is Crawl, then chroot is probably sufficient.  But VM has other advantages, and if you keep the priveleged stuff out of the VM, then it still does have security advantages
10:53:56 <|amethyst> ??orc warrior
10:53:56 <Sequell> orc warrior[1/1]: Very much more of a melee threat than a regular orc, especially when first encountered. Tends to spawn with a good weapon and good armour and a good ability to use both, potentially beyond one's own when first met.
10:53:58 <Cheibriados> orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 23-33 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 133 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.

10:53:58 <|amethyst> %??orc warrior
10:54:01 <|amethyst> hm
10:54:30 <|amethyst> I was thinking about the consequences of giving monsters actual weapon skill (equal to HD usually) and basing speed off that
10:54:39 <|amethyst> but I guess it would be a huge nerf to orcs
10:55:07 <|amethyst> and I suspect there are more low-HD weapon users than high-HD in general
10:56:00 <gammafunk> yeah
10:56:02 <|amethyst> unrelated
10:56:59 <|amethyst> I'm not entirely happy with removing WJC.  I think it presents a different kind of experience, that while perhaps not attractive to all players, is not found elsewhere in crawl
10:57:06 <|amethyst> but then again, I also like searing ray
10:58:07 <gammafunk> Well my plan was to move heaven on earth to usk, one ability that was relatively liked, and we might like to also do something with lunge if we can get the details right
10:58:17 <|amethyst> but wall jump
10:58:34 <|amethyst> though, granted, new nerfed wall jump is kind of finicky
10:58:34 <gammafunk> I think Lasty, I, MPA, and elliptic are all not happy with the current god
10:58:59 <|amethyst> conspiracy of long-time devs who are also master players
10:59:01 <|amethyst> and Lasty
10:59:17 <gammafunk> Lasty is good! He just plays recklessly because he likes to
10:59:24 <gammafunk> I haven't heard anyone else come out strongly for it, is the thing
10:59:34 <|amethyst> (sorry Lasty, that was mean but funny)
10:59:45 <|amethyst> I am strongly in favour of current WJC
10:59:56 <|amethyst> I'd be fine with moving HoE to Usk
11:00:00 <gammafunk> Now of course I wouldn't be against someone putting in some effort to make whirlwind and wall jump not so annoying
11:00:23 <|amethyst> I guess that's the thing
11:00:28 <|amethyst> I don't find them annoying at all
11:00:42 <gammafunk> You mean keep WJC and move HoE? That wouldn't make too much sense since it would leave WJC without a high-level ability
11:00:44 <|amethyst> (nor do I find searing ray annoying)
11:01:00 <|amethyst> right, it would have to be replaced
11:01:12 <|amethyst> or lash buffed and promoted
11:01:37 <gammafunk> I don't really find searing ray too annoying since it doesn't have much in the way of targetting problems
11:02:11 <|amethyst> I think the abilities that require attention to movement, precise positioning, and using movement instead of tab are interesting in themselves
11:02:24 <|amethyst> I realise they aren't fun for everyone
11:02:32 <|amethyst> but neither is (say) Hep
11:02:49 <elliptic> I don't mind abilities that require paying attention to movement, I just think wjc abilities do a really bad job of this
11:03:06 <elliptic> and that the fundamental issues with them haven't been addressed at all
11:03:15 <|amethyst> elliptic:  you were suggesting making lunge less picky about direct movement
11:03:27 <|amethyst> elliptic:  that's the kind of "require paying attention" that I'm talking about
11:03:52 <elliptic> well lunge is among the abilities that I actually think have potential
11:03:55 <elliptic> as I've said
11:04:40 <elliptic> my issue is that whirlwind design in its various forms has either been something that you want to use all the time or something near-pointless to use
11:05:00 <elliptic> and that I have never had a clue how walljump actually works
11:05:13 <|amethyst> and it overlaps with axes in a weird way
11:05:42 <|amethyst> walljump is weird now with the "need a monster" restriction
11:06:08 <|amethyst> but did have power problems without that
11:06:24 <|amethyst> since it's a speed increase
11:06:34 <|amethyst> s/speed/net movement speed/
11:06:35 <elliptic> basically I think those two abilities have had either power problems or interface problems since the start and that this isn't easy to fix
11:06:52 <elliptic> and that the god doesn't have much content without them
11:07:28 <elliptic> I'm not opposed to the concept of a god based around movement and positioning, I just think it's really hard to actually do correctly
11:07:46 <|amethyst> I guess I'm saying that there is a subset of players who like the "interface problems", because it feels like a combo-based fighting game (or, in the case of wall jump, Ninja Gaiden)
11:08:33 <gammafunk> well does there being a subset of players who enjoy X mean we have to implement X
11:08:35 <elliptic> so you think that the god should return to older states where whirlwind was strictly better than regular attacking?
11:08:36 <|amethyst> and a god is IMO a perfect place for weird interface things (if they're going to exist), because it's entirely optional
11:08:46 <gammafunk> especially if X is not terribly well designed
11:08:57 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I wouldn't be opposed to it, if it's not too powerful in that state
11:09:01 <elliptic> I'm not necessarily opposed, I think the god would make more sense if so
11:09:13 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I don't want people who don't like WJC gameplay to pick WJC because it's powerful
11:09:59 <gammafunk> we remove things that a subset of players enjoy all the time, after all
11:10:52 <gammafunk> this is part of the problem with trying to put a "hold" on removing the god
11:10:53 <elliptic> |amethyst: I guess I think the current state of wjc is pretty bad regardless of what you like, since there isn't any real payoff for movement/positioning
11:11:05 <gammafunk> even after all this time, the god's design is not in a good state
11:11:12 <|amethyst> hm
11:11:14 <elliptic> and if we do keep wjc, we should try to add back in some of that payoff
11:11:19 <gammafunk> so we could certainly leave it disabled in trunk
11:11:22 <gammafunk> instead of removing it
11:11:36 <gammafunk> and hold off on moving heaven on earth to usk
11:11:36 <elliptic> but I know that's where we started and people objected to that as well (this is before I first played the god)
11:11:36 <|amethyst> hm
11:11:39 <gammafunk> but again, who's going to come along and work on it?
11:12:25 <gammafunk> er leave the god disabled in stable, I mean
11:12:28 <|amethyst> elliptic:  Is WJC as it currently exists too weak?
11:13:01 <elliptic> I'm not sure about the overall power level but most of the abilities feel too weak to me
11:14:03 <elliptic> I remember that serpent's lash and heaven on earth felt pretty strong but the earlier abilities were extremely ignorable
11:14:17 <|amethyst> It's the early abilities that I'm interested in
11:14:31 <elliptic> I just played one game with it though, didn't feel worth playing another game until it was reworked at least a bit
11:16:15 <gammafunk> I'd really like to do something about the god very soon; was planning on starting the HoE -> Usk patch today
11:16:47 <gammafunk> It was different when MPA said he might have time to work on WJC, but he's going to be busy for a while
11:17:22 <elliptic> it's certainly possible to encourage people to care more about lunge/whirlwind by making them give actual bonuses, e.g. extra damage or extra EV on turns when you move
11:17:50 <gammafunk> What we could do
11:17:54 <elliptic> the only real issue with this is that it will then be optimal to avoid tab in almost all siituations, but as you said that's part of the appeal and probably acceptable for a god
11:18:02 <gammafunk> is again just leave the god disabled for stable for now
11:18:12 <gammafunk> since at least one dev seems interesting on improving the god
11:18:17 <elliptic> for wall jump I'm less sure, it seems more generally problematic to me
11:18:32 <gammafunk> Gozag had issues like this for a while, so two releases without WJC is not different
11:18:48 <|amethyst> I'd be interested in improving it, but I don't know what changes to make
11:18:49 <elliptic> probably because it is a flavor-based design
11:19:32 <|amethyst> elliptic:  the problem is if the benefit of using the god and avoiding tab becomes high enough that people who hate that want to do it for power level
11:19:45 <|amethyst> which it a difficult line to walk
11:19:54 <|amethyst> s/it/is/
11:20:04 <elliptic> I think for wall jump I'd try to simplify it a bit - e.g. make it only work when you are sandwiched between a monster and a wall
11:20:23 <|amethyst> elliptic:  it's pretty close to that right now, but I guess you can also wall jump en passant
11:20:23 <elliptic> .o@# - you jump to . and do a normal attack on the 'o'
11:21:05 <elliptic> or diagonal like that, and without weird special effects - just make it something that you use when you want to escape from being trapped
11:21:36 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  and don't worry about moving HoE
11:21:38 <elliptic> wouldn't be used much but I don't know if you can make it much stronger
11:21:44 <gammafunk> sure, HoE is fine
11:21:59 <elliptic> without making people lure every single monster to a wall
11:21:59 <gammafunk> you mean full surrounded by wall as well?
11:21:59 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  it's clear that WJC needs work, so needing one more high-level ability isn't a huge deal
11:22:02 <elliptic> no, just have it care about as few squares as possible
11:22:03 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  or it could be on both gods
11:22:17 <gammafunk> oh, hrm
11:22:32 <gammafunk> yeah elliptic might be right that this would not be too abusable
11:22:33 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  obviously not for a release
11:22:46 <gammafunk> |amethyst: yeah, I'm not sure though about HoE
11:22:53 <gammafunk> I mean, it would improve Usk I suppose
11:22:57 <gammafunk> but it's also making your job harder
11:23:12 <gammafunk> unless you have ideas for a replacement
11:23:24 <elliptic> |amethyst: about power level encouraging people to use the god even if they don't like the idea, I wouldn't worry about this too much - even something minor like giving +5 EV on turns when you moved would be enough to make whirlwind attractive (yes, I stole this from sil)
11:23:31 <elliptic> and other gods give far more than +5 EV
11:24:07 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I can brainstorm a bit
11:24:12 <gammafunk> alright
11:24:18 <gammafunk> well I'll hold off on removal then
11:24:22 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  heavenly storm isn't all that thematic for WJC anyway
11:24:30 <elliptic> in general I'm fine with a non-tab god and see the appeal, I would draw the interface line at "luring all enemies to walls" instead
11:24:33 <gammafunk> ok, maybe I can look to move it
11:25:29 <gammafunk> neil is just trying to pass me in the commit count for the release, but it won't work, I can add more mailmap entries
11:25:30 <|amethyst> elliptic:  while I see you point, I do posit:  1. there are more walls than corridors  2. there is already an advantage to luring all enemies to corridors; therefore 3. it's not *that* bad
11:25:46 <|amethyst> s/you p/your p/
11:25:50 <elliptic> alternatively for wall jump I could see making it have nothing to do with monsters at all, just make it jump you 3 squares or something
11:26:14 <elliptic> there are a lot of levels with no corridors nowadays though, and there's no reason to lure a single monster to a corridor
11:26:36 <|amethyst> elliptic:  that would be fine too, but it does mean you have this weird movement pattern if you're trying to flee something
11:27:25 <|amethyst> elliptic:  then again, that weird movement pattern would be all one key (e.g. n if you're trying to move east quickly and there's a wall to your south; or vice versa)
11:27:27 <elliptic> sure, would require a little thought to balance (a cooldown?)
11:27:48 <elliptic> depends on exactly what the mechanic is
11:28:18 <elliptic> I just think it should be fairly simple (depend on as few squares as possible)
11:29:29 <elliptic> I agree the design isn't that simple, as I said earlier I think wall jump is more generally problematic - just throwing out a few vague ideas
11:29:50 <|amethyst> I like the idea of making wall-jump have nothing to do with attacks
11:30:05 <|amethyst> just like serpent's lash has nothing to do with attacks
11:30:32 <elliptic> doesn't lash boost your attacks during its free moves?
11:30:50 <|amethyst> oh, so it does
11:31:11 <|amethyst> "martial" attacks anyway, which I assume mean the WJC specials
11:31:17 <|amethyst> s/mean/means/
11:32:23 <|amethyst> I do want to do a damage multiplier (and no statuses or anything like that) with lunge
11:32:25 <|amethyst> but maybe I've been playing too much Brogue
11:32:28 <|amethyst> FR: doomrl god
11:32:53 <|amethyst> FR^2: HyperRogue god
11:33:46 <gammafunk> people need to try infra arcana
11:33:56 <|amethyst> I need to try IVAN
11:34:12 <gammafunk> it's pretty fun, tedronai, dynast, and I have all beaten it a few times, latest dev version (19.2, soon to be released)
11:34:19 <|amethyst> I do feel we have a certain right to rip of Brogue, since it borrows some stuff from Crawl
11:34:27 <|amethyst> e.g. the armour sequence is old Crawl
11:35:00 <|amethyst> (you can tell the difference from Nethack because splint is more protective than banded)
11:35:08 <gammafunk> IA's "ascii" mode is a png tilesheet of "glyphs"
11:35:21 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  that's how I play brogue too
11:35:25 <gammafunk> so everyone mostly plays in tiles, which are all two-color anyhow
11:35:30 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I've never played it in an actual console
11:35:43 <gammafunk> yeah, but I think the case of IA you really don't gain any benefit from ascii mode
11:35:59 <gammafunk> the tiles have basically the same info content as glyphs
11:35:59 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I also don't play doomrl in console, because it has the weird <esc> thing where it thinks you started an escape sequence with no timeout
11:36:21 <|amethyst> someone should implement hyperrogue for console
11:36:26 <gammafunk> oh, I've not tried doomrl in console mode either, however the tutorial vids I learned from where in ascii
11:36:34 <gammafunk> they were very easy to follow even though I didn't play ascii
11:36:41 <gammafunk> but this was some years ago
11:36:59 <elliptic> |amethyst: I do think that adding a minor damage multiplier (like 1.2 at most probably) and/or minor defensive bonus (some EV) to lunge/whirlwind is probably a good idea if we don't mind a no-tab god
11:37:04 <gammafunk> I did play cogmind in ascii mode, which I do think is better
11:37:21 <elliptic> much easier to balance than applying status effects or whatever it used to do
11:37:39 <elliptic> I also think lunge making things explode is really weird, but that's a different (and less important) discussion
11:37:49 <|amethyst> I guess generally I prefer classical/baroque roguelikes in ASCII, and others in whatever is the "default"
11:38:23 <|amethyst> elliptic:  yeah, I think that's a little over-the-top
11:38:31 <|amethyst> martial arts movies meet Doom
11:38:50 <gammafunk> well, many experienced cogmind players use ascii since the tiles can be a little hard to make out; I think there are sometimes benefits, but yeah I usually likewise try the default at first
11:39:19 <gammafunk> I don't don't play cogmind any more, but IA has actually stuck with me for a bit
11:39:33 <gammafunk> of course I need to get to sil and poschengband
11:39:47 <|amethyst> hyperrogue, brogue, and doomrl are pretty much my go-tos when I'm not playing Crawl
11:39:47 <gammafunk> the original angband games
11:39:50 <|amethyst> and occasionally Sil
11:39:59 <|amethyst> I used to play a lot of nethack and zangband
11:40:09 <gammafunk> hyperrogue I just watch a few amalloy vids
11:40:24 <gammafunk> it's like I'm playing it vicariously
11:40:34 <|amethyst> I'm finally "better" than amalloy
11:40:38 <|amethyst> because I beat the game once
11:40:46 <gammafunk> dang
11:40:59 <|amethyst> (meaning, I was willing to put up with the annoying Orb of Yendor thing longer than he was)
11:41:39 <|amethyst> I don't usually like "puzzle" RLs, but hyperrogue doesn't feel like one to me
11:41:43 <|amethyst> even though it clearly is
11:41:57 <|amethyst> in that you can predict everything that's going to happen
11:42:17 <gammafunk> puzzle roguelike...I hope it has something like sokoban
11:42:20 <|amethyst> other than what's going to be in newly-revealed areas
11:45:02 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  you can push around Thumpers in the Desert
11:45:54 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  there aren't any holes for them to fall into, though, unless you take them to the border with Land of Eternal Motion or something
11:46:22 <|amethyst> wait, in the original sokoban, boxes don't fall into holes, do they?
11:46:33 <|amethyst> I've played Nethack Sokoban far more than the original
11:47:15 <|amethyst> BTW, has anyone played Silicon Zeroes?
11:47:38 <elliptic> |amethyst: hyperrogue reptiles are pretty close to sokoban IMO
11:47:44 <|amethyst> I haven't yet, but I was trying to decide whether to assign it in the Systems Programming class I might be playing next semester
11:47:58 <|amethyst> elliptic:  oh, yeah, reptiles
11:48:01 <|amethyst> elliptic:  like sokoban if the boxes chase you around
11:48:07 <elliptic> yeah
11:48:19 <|amethyst> Sokoban meets Metal Gear
11:49:24 <gammafunk> |amethyst: Systems Programming class you might be *playing*? Have you made college roguelike?
11:49:32 <|amethyst> doh
11:49:42 <gammafunk> if not, fr
11:49:43 <|amethyst> well, I do try to gamify my life
11:49:55 <|amethyst> Okay, completely lame and unworkable WJC ability idea: walk in a complete circle around a monster to deal Massive Damage
11:50:24 <gammafunk> the UI for that one would sure be fun
11:50:26 <|amethyst> ability name "holy dread", because Crawl needs more Coleridge references
11:56:00 <|amethyst> BTW, should we put an announcement about Silicon Zeros on the blog?
11:56:11 <|amethyst> I think it's only fair, given how much PF has contributed
11:58:39 <gammafunk> oh, sure, feel free to do that
11:58:52 <gammafunk> I think it was put on steam a while back
11:59:01 <advil> I bought silcon zeroes but haven't had a chance to play it yet
11:59:31 <advil> I used to play a lot of zachlikes before I started doing crawl debugging, but now I just do that
11:59:51 <|amethyst> Manufactoria is great
12:00:03 <|amethyst> but that's more for a CS theory class
12:00:04 <advil> yeah, I have played that
12:08:47 <|amethyst> hmm
12:09:15 <|amethyst> What did I do wrong?
12:09:20 <|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/4010
12:11:13 <advil> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/silicon-zeroes ?
12:11:22 <|amethyst> yeah, I deleted and readded it and it works now
12:11:37 <|amethyst> I think the problem was that I forgot the title the first time, and re-adding it didn't fix it
12:11:37 <gammafunk> did you not actually publish?
12:11:38 <advil> ah ok
12:12:27 <gammafunk> I informed him about the post using Discord
12:12:40 <gammafunk> the modern form of communication you old greybeards just wouldn't understand
12:14:46 <|amethyst> Just edited it to add a mention of Manufactoria as well
12:14:48 <advil> I log into discord once a month or so, whenever someone mentions it on irc
12:14:57 <advil> and then I'm like, what's the point of this
12:15:15 <gammafunk> I'm in #dcss on the roguelikes discord basically all the time
12:15:17 <|amethyst> I'm faculty advisor for a student club that uses Discord as its main communications platform
12:15:28 <|amethyst> it seems like IRC with videos
12:15:31 <gammafunk> wormsofcan is on there now and again
12:15:41 <gammafunk> |amethyst: I would say more IRC with pictures
12:15:49 <gammafunk> but yeah you can link videos as well
12:15:55 <gammafunk> ??cerebot
12:15:55 <Sequell> Cerebot[1/3]: A chat bot available on the Roguelikes discord (https://discord.gg/9pmFGKx) that relays commands to the DCSS IRC knowledge bots Sequell, Gretell, and Cheibriados. See the link in `??beem` for a quick guide to commands for these bots. To see discord-specific bot commands, type `!listcommands`. For help with discord roles, type `??cerebot[2]`.
12:16:11 <|amethyst> Slack for gamers
12:16:12 <gammafunk> I made this for that discord, and a couple other discords are also using it
12:16:16 <gammafunk> yeah
12:16:19 <|amethyst> (I also don't see the point of Slack)
12:16:25 <gammafunk> from what I've heard of Slack (which is not much)
12:16:36 <|amethyst> or Google Wave for people who still exist
12:16:53 <gammafunk> well the big appeal for me is the inline image and hyperlinking and the emotes
12:17:16 <|amethyst> So like IRC for people who can't be bothered to right-click on things to open them
12:17:18 <gammafunk> if you don't like twitch and don't like the inlining, it probably won't appeal to omuch
12:17:43 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well, when you use a browser, do you have all webpages not show images until you right-click?
12:18:00 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I bet RMS does
12:18:04 <gammafunk> probably!
12:18:08 <|amethyst> those might be Non-Free images
12:18:18 <gammafunk> didn't he say he uses wget to fetch and then cats it to some html2txt thing
12:18:25 <|amethyst> BTW, I still read my email in a text-mode client, namely vm-mode in X(!)Emacs
12:18:31 <|amethyst> sometimes my students see this
12:18:38 <|amethyst> they are bewildered and amazed
12:18:45 <|amethyst> "truly this is a great guru"
12:18:45 <gammafunk> Yeah, that was the one emacs thing I never did
12:19:08 <gammafunk> I did mess around with it, but gmail was just good enough for me given my email usage
12:19:10 <|amethyst> I really want to move away from xemacs and switch to mutt but have never gotten around to it
12:19:17 <gammafunk> if I had gone to emacs earlier in my email usage history, I'm sure I'd be using gnus
12:19:24 <gammafunk> that's the emacs email thing, right?
12:19:28 <|amethyst> I used to use gnus
12:19:30 <|amethyst> not for email
12:19:37 <|amethyst> it does both email and usenet
12:19:41 <|amethyst> I used it for usenet
12:19:43 <gammafunk> right
12:19:47 <|amethyst> when my ISP still provided a feed
12:19:52 <|amethyst> RIP Usenet
12:19:56 <gammafunk> now I'm pretty happy with just tmux + vim and don't need emacs any more
12:20:01 <|amethyst> immanent death of the net happened a long time ago :(
12:20:08 <gammafunk> although I still have a ton of things I need to improve my vim usage
12:20:19 <|amethyst> I use vim for everything *except* email
12:20:26 <advil> I used to use mutt, in like 2001
12:20:47 <gammafunk> I'm glad I switched, I just go so sick of emacs terminal
12:20:49 <advil> now I just use apple mail :D
12:20:49 <|amethyst> but I was an emacs user for several years before switching to vim
12:21:01 <|amethyst> but xemacs
12:21:13 <|amethyst> because emacs didn't have multicolour syntax highlighting in 1996
12:21:18 <gammafunk> I'm happy to say that I don't even use X windows any more
12:21:21 <gammafunk> I'm using Wayland now
12:21:33 <gammafunk> (still basically using X for apps that use the X compat thingy)
12:21:36 <|amethyst> I've not used wayland
12:21:49 <|amethyst> only X, Windows, and occasionally whatever Mac OS uses
12:22:05 <gammafunk> ubuntu 17.10 made the switch
12:22:13 <gammafunk> only casualty so far is my RSI software, workrave
12:22:19 <gammafunk> so I'm using the KDE one
12:22:22 <|amethyst> oh, Ubuntu, that's the Debian for babies, right?
12:22:42 <gammafunk> it's debian for people who ran debian for a long time and got tired of pretending to be a greybeard
12:22:59 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  well, some of use are greybeards
12:23:10 <gammafunk> I know, you're legit so you're allowed to use it
12:23:18 <|amethyst> okay, that's not true, my beard isn't grey yet, and I don't have one most of the time anymore
12:23:41 <gammafunk> I'm just lazy and the appeal of having a somewhat less good UI that I'd have to configure more myself
12:23:43 <|amethyst> I guess no one here has probably seen the pictures of me since I shaved and cut my hair
12:23:44 <gammafunk> just isn't there
12:24:19 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  did I mention I'm using an old-school (non-compositing) window manager that's programmed in Lisp? :)
12:24:29 <gammafunk> oh I know all about sawfish!
12:24:30 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  "configure more myself" is a feature for me
12:24:31 <|amethyst> heh
12:24:38 <gammafunk> I used to use that in the early days of gnome
12:24:45 <gammafunk> I think that was their default WM
12:24:49 <|amethyst> I was using it back when it was Sawmill</hipsterer-than-thou>
12:24:58 <gammafunk> yeah, I think I did too actually
12:25:07 <gammafunk> but I didn't really use any of it's configurability
12:25:21 <|amethyst> http://s-z.org/neil/config/sawfish-rc.html
12:25:27 <gammafunk> I used very early gnome releases back when that was a new shiny thing
12:25:41 <|amethyst> I use some of Gnome
12:25:43 <advil> haha I also used to use sawmill back in the same era that I used mutt
12:25:43 <gammafunk> I think I compile a few myself and ran it
12:25:53 <|amethyst> lots of Gnome programs, but not the shell
12:26:04 <|amethyst> I do use its taskbar though
12:26:11 <|amethyst> gnome-panel
12:26:27 <gammafunk> yeah, ubuntu finally switch from their unity codebase fully over to gnome with 17.10
12:26:34 <gammafunk> overall it's better I've found
12:27:05 <|amethyst> btw, re "for babies", http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1895
12:27:10 <|amethyst> for those who haven't seen it
12:27:37 <|amethyst> Jeph beat Crawl a couple of years ago
12:27:55 <|amethyst> (this comic is from 6 years ago)
12:28:35 <gammafunk> Someone tried to convince me that this very comic is why crawl "became popular"
12:29:39 <gammafunk> which I woudln't doubt it got some people to try it, but it singlehandedly being the cause was an interesting take
12:29:50 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=2010 rstart<2011
12:29:54 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=2011 rstart<2012
12:29:59 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=2012 rstart<2013
12:30:22 <Sequell> 383224. casmith789 the Phalangite (L25 MfIE of Kikubaaqudgha), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-12-11 21:53:36, with 1177437 points after 125090 turns and 8:37:24.
12:30:32 <Sequell> 528514. onono the Petrodigitator (L27 DDEE of Makhleb), escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2014-06-14 01:34:30, with 1980393 points after 176721 turns and 1d+0:01:03.
12:30:34 <Sequell> 606511. tempopwn the Black Belt (L13 OpWn of Okawaru), slain by Maud (a +1,+4 demon blade of draining) on Lair:5 on 2017-09-11 02:03:12, with 34412 points after 37795 turns and 2:50:45.
12:30:41 <|amethyst> definitely a jump there
12:32:47 <advil> that's also around when roguelike influences were generally becoming stylish in video games
12:33:02 <|amethyst> I would guess QC and Crawl probably have similar numbers of adherants
12:33:39 <|amethyst> but less than doubling the number of games certainly isn't "why crawl became popular"
12:33:56 <|amethyst> even if it were all to QC
12:34:13 <|amethyst> unfortunately Jeph doesn't put dates on his comics that I can tell, other than the copyright year
12:34:42 <|amethyst> so I know this one was fairly early in 2011, but I'm not sure exactly what month
12:36:07 <gammafunk> can irc do this? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/205316046230388737/376786565772345345/firestorm.gif
12:36:27 <gammafunk> I've also implemented glaciate
12:36:33 <gammafunk> I need to get around to making tornado and shatter
12:38:09 <gammafunk> oh it's also sort of handy how you can easilly upload images to it and get a hosted link
12:39:20 <advil> |amethyst: it was first linked in this channel on 20110401
12:40:02 <advil> by multiple people, so I'm guessing it was published that day or shortly before
12:41:04 <gammafunk> so it actually made dcss less popular relatively speaking!
12:41:30 <gammafunk> unless that uptick really did happen at the end of 2011
12:41:56 <gammafunk> (obviously it's not possibly to seriously measure what contributed to player growth)
12:42:28 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201103 rstart<201204
12:42:33 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201102 rstart<201203
12:42:35 <Sequell> 631368. shoop the Thaumaturge (L16 NaWz of Cheibriados), quit the game on D:7 on 2015-09-02 04:03:13, with 94005 points after 35301 turns and 4:25:04.
12:42:38 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201104 rstart<201205
12:42:45 <Sequell> 613519. onono the Petrodigitator (L27 DDEE of Makhleb), escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2014-06-14 01:34:30, with 1980393 points after 176721 turns and 1d+0:01:03.
12:42:48 <Sequell> 637090. ddubois the Chopper (L8 NaBe of Trog), slain by an ogre zombie on D:8 on 2017-05-10 12:58:07, with 1961 points after 6124 turns and 0:45:24.
12:42:55 <|amethyst> doh
12:43:06 <advil> !lg * year(start)=2011 s=month(start) -graph
12:43:08 <Sequell> 528514 games for * (year(start)=2011): https://shalott.org/graphs/75a1ac9c3501383a1cb0754dbe4a2a0e28d59de4.html
12:43:11 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201102 rstart<201103
12:43:16 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201103 rstart<201104
12:43:19 <|amethyst> !lg * rstart>=201104 rstart<201105
12:43:24 <Sequell> 33843. chos the Covered (L1 MDFi), quit the game on D:1 on 2012-05-31 01:58:37, with 31 points after 154 turns and 0:01:10.
12:43:25 <advil> there was an uptick in april
12:43:32 <|amethyst> you and your fancy graphs
12:43:37 <advil> heh
12:43:37 <Sequell> 63833. squid the Ducker (L7 FeCr of Okawaru), mangled by an ogre (a +0,+0 giant club) on D:4 (co_window_2corner) on 2012-07-30 07:40:53, with 1068 points after 7929 turns and 0:37:56.
12:43:47 <advil> !lg * year(start)=2010 s=month(start) -graph
12:43:50 <Sequell> 40965. DiscoRobin the Gusty (L3 HEAE), quit the game on D:2 on 2012-05-21 18:08:18, with 173 points after 2154 turns and 0:09:56.
12:43:52 <Sequell> 383224 games for * (year(start)=2010): https://shalott.org/graphs/76603b0727235b3e8b0b54f4fed61d6bd07e4e97.html
12:44:02 <|amethyst> oh right, I'm shifting in the wrong direction
12:44:14 <advil> at least compared to 2010 it's probably a meaningful uptick
12:44:40 <|amethyst> When Jeph did his Deathmøle album kickstarter
12:44:41 <advil> but not really bigger than the usual summer uptick
12:45:06 <|amethyst> I tried to make my credits line "Sigmund, Ijyb, and Terence
12:45:06 <|amethyst> "
12:45:14 <|amethyst> but for some reason that dind't go through
12:54:38 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:00:56 <gammafunk> |amethyst: [11:44 AM] PleasingFungus: @gammafunk aw, that's really nice!
13:00:59 <gammafunk> re your post
13:06:18 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  yeah, he mailed me as well
13:06:24 <|amethyst> !lg * month s=name
13:06:26 <Sequell> 142038 games for * (month): 1796x Beatriz, 1366x Lumenstone, 1263x miz, 1055x squeakweiz, 1033x Stenella, 940x antares, 937x Sbamiri, 918x faustus, 844x pigah, 804x Charmpee, 759x p0werm0de, 759x knot, 633x tlatlagkaus, 628x Luce, 611x slep, 574x Vfor, 553x hyde0630, 523x pes1, 482x LAYA, 482x mlskboy, 457x Irenicus, 420x Psyclone, 408x xuincherguixe, 401x letownia, 396x RememberNoOTab, 387x ENHL,...
13:06:38 <|amethyst> !lg * month x=count(name)
13:06:40 <Sequell> 142037 games for * (month): count(name)=5194
13:14:32 <advil> heh the currently most helpful (positive) steam review of silicon zeroes starts off with "Silicon Zeroes is like getting smacked in the shoulder with a keisaku stick by some fastidious programming monk" and goes from there
13:24:58 <gammafunk> fastidious programming monks
13:25:12 <gammafunk> I try to avoid those at all costs
13:27:19 <amalloy> huh, i read that comic before i knew what dungeon crawl was, and it never even occurred to me to try to find out
13:34:28 <gammafunk> yeah, I'm sure a number of people did try dcss because of it, I just found it funny that someone believed a random webcomic with the primary arbiter of crawl's popularity
13:34:42 <gammafunk> s/with the/was the/
13:34:53 <gammafunk> I learned about the comic long after playing, I think it was linked in learndb
13:36:00 <gammafunk> webtiles and the developement of Tiles in general probably accounts for most of the big increase in crawl's user-base, that and it actually being a good roguelike with active development
14:30:38 <DieEarlyDieOften> Hi all! got a question about the rltiles tool: is there an option to output tile defs as JavaScript instead of C++? I found some hints towards this here and there but could not find any docu in the wiki or elsewhere.
14:31:04 <DieEarlyDieOften> is there a command line option, maybe?
14:31:28 <gammafunk> tool/tile_list_processor.cc
14:31:34 <gammafunk> let me see
14:31:42 <gammafunk> but this is the source file that generates js files for webtiles
14:31:52 <gammafunk> that file I sent you (which you could see if you built webtiles)
14:33:11 <DieEarlyDieOften> I haven't built the thing; looking at the code on github
14:33:41 <DieEarlyDieOften> not checked in I suppose (as a generated file)
14:34:11 <gammafunk> right, it's generated as part of the the Makefile in rltiles
14:35:37 <gammafunk> I think it just generates these when you run the tool
14:35:49 <gammafunk> with the dc-%i.txt file as an argument
14:36:12 <gammafunk> so
14:36:41 <gammafunk> rltiles/tool/tilegen.elf -c dc-feat.txt
14:38:19 <gammafunk> yes
14:38:40 <gammafunk> DieEarlyDieOften: so if you build webtiles, you get a binary in rltiles/tool/tilegen (either .exe or .elf depending on your system)
14:39:03 <gammafunk> you then run that tool with arguments -c (for code) and the tile definition text file (like dc-feat.txt in that rltiles dir)
14:39:11 <gammafunk> it outputs the cc code and the javascript code
14:39:39 <gammafunk> but this code just defines the tile enums based on the tile defs in dc-feat.txt
14:40:03 <gammafunk> the other javascript code is static code that's in the repo and which handles the webtiles client
14:40:14 <DieEarlyDieOften> yeah, that's what I'm looking for
14:40:31 <gammafunk> yeah, so if you like you can use that tool if you build webtiles
14:40:47 <DieEarlyDieOften> I guess the rltiles.exe/elf isn't available for download anywhere?
14:40:54 <gammafunk> that's right
14:41:06 <gammafunk> I mean, it's not hard to compile
14:41:16 <gammafunk> you can even compile it on windwos with msys2 using mingw
14:41:21 <gammafunk> as the install.txt describes
14:41:33 <DieEarlyDieOften> ok, I'll try that, then
14:41:41 <gammafunk> yeah, let us know if you have trouble compiling
14:41:48 <gammafunk> there is a patch you probably need to apply at one point
14:41:52 <gammafunk> I need to go merge that fix...
14:42:35 <DieEarlyDieOften> you've got a nice project there; repo seems well structured and lots of docs
14:43:31 <DieEarlyDieOften> and this rltiles tool seems extremely useful even for other projects
14:43:59 <gammafunk> could be; it's generalized to a degree, but the code it outputs is just very crawl-specific
14:45:00 <gammafunk> it's also code that a lot of us only touch when we have to, since none of us wrote it (the Tiles author is not active in dev these days)
14:45:22 <DieEarlyDieOften> heh, that's how it goes :)
14:45:52 <DieEarlyDieOften> never touch code that's not invented here, hehe
14:48:00 <DieEarlyDieOften> ok, I'll be going then; thanks for the info and also in general for your work on DCSS; already had quite some fun playing and maybe I'll start tinkering with the code at some point :)
15:22:35 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please.
15:22:36 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic
15:44:05 <gammafunk> ??test
15:44:05 <Sequell> test[1/42]: blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh blaargh
16:00:29 -!- rc_zzz is now known as rchandra
16:48:25 <aidanh> advil: I don't really have a preference for how my commits are listed
16:50:00 <gammafunk> aidanh: I only brought it up since people can see a commit by you and know your irc nick and ask you about it
16:50:17 <gammafunk> but people can also make that connection themselves; it's common for us to use the irc nick as the mailmap for people who use irc
16:50:27 <gammafunk> but I guess it's not a rule or anything
16:52:01 <aidanh> gammafunk: that makes sense; I'm happy with either option, so feel free to change that if you'd prefer
16:52:14 <gammafunk> ok, I'll update it, thanks
19:38:08 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf
21:20:01 <aidanh> Is there any preference for multiple cc,h files vs a single pair, or any criteria for deciding?
21:22:51 <gammafunk> I'm not sure we do have a criteria for that; it's generally find to add a new cc/h pair if you think the code is really seperate
21:23:00 <gammafunk> s/find/fine/
21:24:49 <aidanh> Hm; I'm deciding whether to plonk each gui node class in its own file, but the combined total is currently only around 700 lines in ui.cc, so I think it'll be fine for now
21:26:27 <gammafunk> yeah, generally we don't do one class per file unless it's a big class (and even then it's usually not the only class in the file)
21:27:06 <gammafunk> player-act.cc might actually only have player methods that are part of the actor class and no other classes
21:27:15 <gammafunk> the but player class is ginormous
21:28:28 <aidanh> woah, you ain't kidding
21:30:25 <gammafunk> also see struct bolt in beam.cc
21:31:36 <aidanh> Yeah, that's pretty gnarly
21:32:30 <aidanh> a pattern I see a lot in crawl code is to have lots of bool is_foo() or has_foo() methods which compute some boolean value
21:32:49 <aidanh> e.g. bolt::is_bouncy()
21:33:07 <gammafunk> yes, also to have a lot of independent functions like mons_is_food() etc
21:33:13 <gammafunk> that are not actually methods at all
21:33:20 <gammafunk> er s/food/foo/
21:33:32 <aidanh> i feel it'd make more sense to have a bunch of flags that are set when the bolt (or whatever) is created
21:34:38 <aidanh> although I chose a crap example, cause bounciness needs to consider the feature type the beam might bounce off
21:35:01 <gammafunk> well some things change after instantiation and are not simply determined from data from the thing alone
21:35:40 <aidanh> right, that'd make sense
21:43:41 -!- hellmonk_ is now known as hellmonk
23:08:31 <amalloy> even if you have those flags, it's often useful to have functions for accessing them anyway. mon-data.h has a number of bitfield members, and there are functions for asking questions about those bitfields
23:12:32 <aidanh> functions provide a nice interface no matter the implementation; I was thinking more about the recalculation-per-call aspect