00:00:51 <|amethyst> hm, simple implementation with a low probability of L3 scales might be to just reroll the whole mutation if it picks the "wrong" scale 00:01:14 <|amethyst> we already do that if it picks a scale and you have 3 levels 00:01:19 <|amethyst> (and that logic could be removed) 00:01:31 <|amethyst> 3 total levels among all scale mutations, that is 00:02:54 <|amethyst> preferably not doing that with the conflict array, though, because 12*11 is kind of big 00:03:53 <|amethyst> oh, hm, no, I guess the 3-level logic can't be removed, because of nagas and draconians 00:05:40 <|amethyst> (though the draconian restriction could be more easily implemented elsewhere 00:05:41 <|amethyst> ) 00:51:33 hm 00:51:57 iron shot is more accurate than bolt of cold/fire for monsters 00:52:47 iron shot has 20 + HD*12/25 to-hit while the bolts have 17 + HD*12/25 00:53:11 yeah, but also consider that iron shot is blockable with a shield 00:53:19 ah right 01:04:58 and rmsl/dmsl is more effective against it 01:05:40 monster stone arrow does more damage than monster poison arrow 01:19:53 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 (34) 01:44:50 -!- yesno_ is now known as yesno 01:48:42 re purple chunks, i'd like to find out which faction is going to win and then claim i supported them all along 01:49:04 no strong desire to remove them or leave them in, myself 01:51:51 classic amalloy move 01:52:11 wants to be the last dev standing when the mutagenic dust settles 02:01:19 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 02:53:45 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 03:11:36 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 (34) 03:26:00 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 03:27:48 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 05:03:30 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:03:52 -!- mikee___ is now known as mikee_ 05:13:14 -!- rchandra is now known as rc_zzz 09:04:45 really robust+frail form a single 7-element scale 09:04:45 and a few others 09:05:15 because +frail = -robust 09:06:12 do people really eat a lot of purple chunks? I think my habits on that were formed in like 2007 when it was not a great idea 09:06:50 I've never tried it... never seemed to be a great option 09:07:01 advil: do you know much about the menu system? 09:07:19 "much" would be a strong word 09:07:39 Heh 09:08:56 I'm working on refactoring it to make it work properly with resizing, and I see there's two 'backend renderers" MenuDisplayText and MenuDisplayTile 09:09:17 yeah 09:09:59 Would there be any complaints if I used MenuDisplayText for formatted_scrollers, and MenuDisplayTile for everything else? 09:10:28 well, MenuDisplayTile is local tiles only 09:10:42 so everything else still needs to be MenuDisplayText in console 09:12:42 for local tiles I don't see any strong reason why MenuDisplayTile couldn't do most of what MenuDisplayText does, iirc it has extra stuff for displaying icons but probably could be made to work without display them with a very similar behavior 09:12:57 Ah right, of course 09:13:35 I'm working on moving the pagesize/layout stuff from Menu to MenuDisplay 09:16:21 -!- okku is now known as Shredu92 10:17:58 ziggurnaut (L6 FoFi) (D:4) 10:18:26 You weren't kidding about crawl UI code... everything is done at least five different ways 10:30:20 yeah, it's a bit baroque 10:34:21 huh, the zin punishment for deliberate mutation is way lighter than I expected. it takes 4-5 potions to drop a * of piety, and there's no penance ever 10:44:07 also why do mutation potions even do anything, I thought zin prevented them 11:00:44 oh, I'm in the wrong branch for that to apply 11:02:33 does anyone have opinions about 522? I was sort of thinking of merging it but on testing it's a pretty substantial change to zin, moreso than I think I realized from just reading the code 11:10:16 I don't really like it but I also don't really play zin currently anyway 11:10:45 it feels like it just makes the mutation game more complicated for zin than for other characters 11:11:33 e.g. you get mutated fighting oofs in zot:5 (pretty unavoidable), on a normal char you have your potions of mutation right there and can use them if something happens 11:11:51 but with this zin idea you might want to go get zin piety somewhere and come back 11:12:48 (or drink !mut anyway and take the piety hit) 11:12:59 well, it's a pretty fast gift timeout (same as jiyva's) 11:13:07 in master, !mut doesn't do anything at full piety 11:13:15 that's sort of the problem it is attempting to solve 11:13:21 I don't see how this is a problem though? 11:13:56 basically with zin you have no ways to get rid of mutations beyond the capstone 11:14:08 sure but you also are protected from them 11:14:20 and the capstone is a pretty good way to get rid of them :P 11:14:43 once 11:14:49 but you won't get new ones 11:14:52 you are only 100% protected at full piety 11:15:30 full meaning 200 or 160? 11:15:38 200 I think 11:15:47 i think it is 200 currently, yeah 11:15:51 I thought it was 160 but I could be wrong 11:15:53 maybe it should be 160! 11:16:13 we usually try to avoid invisible breakpoints 11:16:29 e.g. chei stops giving stat boosts after 160 11:16:44 maybe it is 160? 11:17:34 anyway if people who actually play games that take zin as their first god think this change would make that play out better, go ahead 11:17:51 well, I'm not sure that this change really would, hence my not merging it yet 11:17:52 it feels to me like it would be worse though 11:18:09 both on a power level standpoint and a playability standpoint 11:18:38 !source mutate.cc:1440 11:18:39 Can't find mutate.cc. 11:18:48 !source mutation.cc:1440 11:18:48 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc#L1440 11:18:55 but I also think the capstone is a bit broken (it's from a different mutation era) and zin chars who do get mutated are in a weird place right now, so I agree with some of the motivations for the PR 11:18:59 uh 11:19:00 wrong line 11:19:06 if this is about people who convert to zin in extended to cure some mutations and then stick with zin and somehow get mutated more and then annoyed at that, I don't have much sympathy for that 11:19:10 but just above that, it's weirder than i thought i guess 11:19:21 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc#L1422 11:19:32 weird 11:19:34 yeah, I was looking at that formula earlier and got nothing out of it 11:20:03 %git f0d3fdbe7b40a6f9f759522377137d4abda9114e 11:20:03 07kilobyte02 * 0.10-a0-2057-gf0d3fdb: Make Zin's protection from mutations better than rMut. 10(6 years ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f0d3fdbe7b40 11:20:56 re the capstone, it is 90% only useful now in the conversion case as far as I can tell 11:21:04 so if you don't like people converting, then the capstone is silly 11:21:31 I don't mind people converting 11:21:43 but I think the capstone is really from the time where you could get tons and tons of mutations 11:22:58 advil: that hasn't really changed, no? 11:23:39 well, most characters won't, because !mut keeps it around 5 11:23:42 it's always been rare to get mutated much before zot:5/pan/abyss 11:23:59 sure but the use case of zin was never to cure your own !mut abuse 11:24:12 since people who did that wanted lots of muts 11:24:35 !mut is much more effective at keeping malmutate under control than !cmut was, I think [though I haven't played since the last adjustment to it's frequency] 11:24:44 *its 11:24:50 I don't think that's really true 11:25:10 there's a mut potion simulator in the lua directory that I wrote :-) 11:25:42 the test directory specifically 11:25:58 I mean I don't need a simulator to know that getting mutations from malmut is pretty rare before late enough in the game that you had !curemut before and have !mut now 11:27:30 like I've said before that I think the mut potion merge actually had very little effect on gameplay (I like the change because it merged three items into one) 11:29:06 well, you've played lots more games than me, but I've definitely had plenty of 3 rune games where I had minimal amounts of !cmut, 0-2, haven't seen that with new !mut. And !mut is much quicker to clear out bad effects of malmut, that's what the simulator refers to. 11:29:52 anyway if this zin mut change is intended to address the (rare) situation where people get mutated after getting to 6* zin piety and using the capstone, I'd propose changing the mut resist formula to something that gives immunity at 160 piety 11:30:12 but if people who actually play zin a bunch think this change sounds good and not annoying at all, I'm fine with it 11:31:11 advil: the number of 3-rune games that need even a single !cmut is pretty low though is my point 11:41:56 not sure about need, but one usually wants some 11:43:32 but I still think the zin capstone is not a great capstone, and doesn't fit in very well with the current mutation setup 11:59:19 huh ok zin permits the delete mutation aspect of !mut to work 11:59:30 that changes things a *lot*, since the piety hit is trivial 11:59:51 <|amethyst> probably the piety hit and the "dangerous" flag could be removed 12:00:02 <|amethyst> err, both 'dangerous' and 'prohibited' 12:00:04 (I was thinking of proposing that and realized I should check if it already works) 12:00:56 that's an idea...it would make !mut strictly better than old !cmut for zinnites, not sure if that matters 12:01:27 also, you'd really never use the capstone 12:01:39 yeah, could just remove capstone and let them drink !mut without the piety hit 12:01:54 and leave the mutation resistance as is 12:02:13 (or still change the formula to be 100% protection at 160 piety) 12:02:34 I think the 160 piety thing would be good 12:08:49 I guess the one thing about this is that it might be a bit weird if low piety zin doesn't care at all if you drink !mut and gain mutations 12:09:12 so possibly zin should suppress the mut part of !mut even at low piety? not sure if this is getting too special-casey 12:10:26 (and hard to communicate to the player) 12:10:48 hmm, yeah 12:13:22 an alternative would be to keep the piety hit and reword the warning (and maybe still not mark the item as dangerous)...it'd basically be like using a 10-piety ability 12:14:05 flavor-wise that'd be odd 12:31:23 -!- molotove1 is now known as molotove 13:03:08 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:04:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-401-g0b6bec4 (34) 13:37:41 Is there any way to log from C++ while running the webserver? 13:43:24 you can use dprf in a debug build to log to the game messages; it doesn't always work perfectly but it has some useful properties (shows up in a crash dump) 13:43:57 I'll try that, thanks 13:44:32 Next question, does webtiles use MenuDisplayText? Even though it has tiles? 13:44:45 Never mind, yes it does 13:52:23 the best way to think of webtiles is that it is console + a client 13:52:36 that communicates with the console instance over json 13:53:11 every webtiles instance has a console version running as the backend, and most servers use a webtiles build for console logins over ssh 13:53:33 if you run a webtiles build directly it behaves basically like a console-only build 13:53:49 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 14:01:49 That kind of makes sense 14:02:48 It'd make a lot more sense if crawl had a 'headless' mode 14:04:30 well, you still need to be able to spectate on console, and webtiles games still need to write a ttyrec 14:05:01 er, spectate a webtiles game from console 14:06:08 Well that's a bit of work no matter how you do it 14:18:48 yeah, I just mean that it can't have a full headless mode where there's no console output being generated at all 14:18:54 "FIXME: This member is currently unused." helpful... 14:21:39 Hm, why not? You could have an opaque 'game' instance that you manipulate with member functions and query with more member functions 14:23:46 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:25:27 although given the rather entrenched state of the codebase.. it would be more trouble than its worth 14:27:42 <|amethyst> make all UI-game communication go through lua 14:28:43 <|amethyst> clua specifically, so it's all available from user scripts 14:29:55 What would UI-game communication look like? 14:30:12 Hooking on events? 14:30:59 Or constructing+orchestrating the UI from Lua? 14:31:16 <|amethyst> hooking events 14:32:09 New branch created: zin-mutation (5 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/zin-mutation 14:32:10 03alexjurkiewicz02 {advil} 07[zin-mutation] * 0.21-a0-402-gdb6c5e3: Remove Zin's capstone ability 10(6 months ago, 4 files, 2+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db6c5e3afb44 14:32:10 03alexjurkiewicz02 {advil} 07[zin-mutation] * 0.21-a0-403-g59a143d: Move all god gifting logic into separate functions 10(6 months ago, 1 file, 422+ 389-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/59a143d58cf6 14:32:10 03alexjurkiewicz02 {advil} 07[zin-mutation] * 0.21-a0-404-gbf82a0b: Rework gift messaging 10(9 weeks ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bf82a0b2a134 14:32:10 03advil02 07[zin-mutation] * 0.21-a0-405-gac650d4: Change Zin's mutation protection to be 100% at ****** (160) piety. 10(87 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac650d4b8572 14:32:10 03advil02 07[zin-mutation] * 0.21-a0-406-gf60d126: Let !mutation for Zin at ****** (160) just delete mutations 10(6 minutes ago, 6 files, 31+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f60d1268cae3 14:32:34 still not really sure about that last commit there 14:33:40 but that branch is my rewrite of alexjurkiewicz's PR based on the discussion earlier (that's why the gift refactor from that PR is in there) 14:35:20 Would hooking events allow you to change the data being sent between UI and game? 14:36:20 I'm just wondering what you'd actually use UI hooks for 15:17:24 -!- ebarrett_ is now known as eb_ 16:06:02 <|amethyst> !learn edit out_of_depth[1] s/6.4%.*4.8%/5.2% (3.9%/ 16:06:02 out of depth[1/2]: Crawl sometimes generates unusually hard monsters to keep you on your toes. OOD monsters come from between 1 and 5 levels deeper. The chance for a non-vault monster to be OOD is approximately 5.2% (3.9% on D:2 and 0% on D:1). Other times when something seems overly powerful, it's just a vault -- e.g. death yak guarding the lair. 16:06:23 <|amethyst> !learn edit out_of_depth[1] s/OOD mon.*deeper\. // 16:06:23 out of depth[1/2]: Crawl sometimes generates unusually hard monsters to keep you on your toes. The chance for a non-vault monster to be OOD is approximately 5.2% (3.9% on D:2 and 0% on D:1). Other times when something seems overly powerful, it's just a vault -- e.g. death yak guarding the lair. 16:07:56 <|amethyst> !learn edit out_of_depth[1] s/:1\)\./:1). OOD monsters come from between 1 (38%) and 5 (2.2%) levels deeper./ 16:07:57 out of depth[1/2]: Crawl sometimes generates unusually hard monsters to keep you on your toes. The chance for a non-vault monster to be OOD is approximately 5.2% (3.9% on D:2 and 0% on D:1). OOD monsters come from between 1 (38%) and 5 (2.2%) levels deeper. Other times when something seems overly powerful, it's just a vault -- e.g. death yak guarding the lair. 16:17:14 Is there anything i need to do to reset ppl's save when i reimplement the server? 16:17:20 if i am not transfering saves? 18:51:10 -!- mikee__ is now known as mikee_ 19:55:29 advil: good zin change 20:15:24 alexjurkiewicz ah thanks, sorry I kind of massacred your PR 20:23:34 so the idea is that zin people can just use !mutation at max piety? 20:39:30 yeah...well, the fact is (but maybe no one realized) that they already can with only minimal penalty 20:39:36 since zin doesn't block mutation removal 20:40:13 hah, yeah 20:40:25 so that commit would make it official 20:40:26 I wonder if players were doing stuff like that 20:40:46 I guess with the capstone and the mutation resistance it was not a common problem 20:40:55 yeah 20:41:30 but I'm still not certain it's the best way to go, let me know if you have ideas 20:44:42 having !mut as a 10 piety ability like it is right now seems ok to me too, for that matter...it's just not well-communicated that that's going to be the only cost