00:09:23 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373 (34)
00:27:49 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373 (34)
01:20:22 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373 (34)
01:56:57 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373
02:54:05 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373
03:15:15 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
03:15:51 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373 (34)
06:22:30 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
06:24:00 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
07:49:12 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
07:50:04 <Lantell> ohados (L4 GnWn)  (D:2)
07:50:04 <Lantell> Conn321 (L22 DEFE)  (D (Sprint))
07:50:04 <Lantell> Mitsuki (L9 GrEE)  (D:5)
07:50:05 <Lantell> glosham (L1 DEAK)  (Abyss:1)
07:50:05 <Lantell> Thanuir (L9 BaBe)  (Ossuary)
07:50:06 <Lantell> WhatIsLove (L8 GnSk)  (D:6)
07:50:08 <Lantell> LarsimusPrime (L4 MiBe)  (D:3)
07:50:11 <Lantell> cirnu (L6 DsGl)  (D:3)
07:50:13 <TZer0> ah damn, didn't realise reaload with restart...
07:50:13 <Lantell> akademic (L8 DDHu)  (D:6)
07:50:15 <TZer0> -_-
07:50:15 <Lantell> nago (L22 GnBe)  (Vaults:3)
07:50:17 <Lantell> coier (L27 DEFE)  (Pan)
07:50:23 <Lantell> Webtiles server restarted.
07:50:33 <TZer0> I just wanted to update banner.html... :(
10:47:03 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-322-ga284228: Make gnoll skills rise evenly. 10(11 minutes ago, 2 files, 51+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a28422887585
10:48:04 <elliptic> gammafunk: gnoll skills should be prettier now. Also, while testing the gnoll skill stuff I decided that maybe using +8 apts for starting skills is fine after all, so maybe leave that as is for now
10:50:22 <advil> !tell elliptic does you.exp_available ever get set now?  trying to work out the change in player.cc
10:50:22 <Sequell> advil: OK, I'll let elliptic know.
10:50:56 <advil> oh I guess that just mins it?
10:52:08 <advil> er, maxes it
10:52:53 <advil> I guess the commit msg has a note about this
10:54:39 <advil> in fact, that line you removed from player.cc looks wrong, now that I think about it more
10:55:41 <advil> elliptic: ignore more tell a sec ago, it was just me reading too quickly :)
10:55:46 <advil> *my tell
10:59:12 <elliptic> yeah, I _think_ the only effect on that line previously was to cap stored experience at some very small amount for characters with all currently trainable skills at 27
10:59:12 <Sequell> elliptic: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
11:00:15 <elliptic> not sure if it had some other intent when it was first written, it was 5 years old
11:04:57 <advil> hm I wonder what will happen with wizmode chars with all skills at 27
11:05:31 <advil> where check_selected_skills returns false
11:05:46 <advil> or megazig chars I suppose
11:06:21 <elliptic> I don't think removing the thing I removed will really matter for that
11:07:01 <elliptic> but I didn't test 27-skill chars
11:07:24 <advil> yeah, I don't see what it will do in the end, but that seems like it would be a way to get that if to trigger is what I mean
11:07:51 <advil> otherwise the while loop before shouldn't terminate unless the if condition isn't met
11:08:30 <advil> oh, you already said that
11:08:40 <advil> I'm not reading well this morning
11:09:31 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-322-ga284228 (34)
11:13:57 <advil> it doesn't do anything very obvious
11:14:12 <advil> I guess someone could make that field overflow if they really tried, but I'm not even sure what that would do
12:27:44 -!- parabolic is now known as elliptic
13:05:16 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-322-ga284228 (34)
14:27:40 -!- molotove1 is now known as molotove
14:47:28 <Cheibriados> Lear's Hauberk is the wrong kind of item to Wear 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11243 by rchandra
15:24:02 -!- eb__ is now known as eb_
15:35:12 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-323-gc36d0dd: Really for real disable all training target UI for gnolls 10(23 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c36d0dd2848c
15:35:42 <advil> this 0 to 0.8 jump is kind of unfortunate
15:36:08 <advil> I think it's going to be fairly confusing to people who don't know how training works
15:36:29 <advil> e.g. "This soundded neat so I rolled up a nuGnoll on CAO. I'm finding that the skills are not all ascending equally, but it doesn't seem to be like autotraining because my long blades for instance has gone up a level, but polearms is still 0, and in the interim I've wielded a club and a hand axe"
15:36:45 <advil> I'm guessing that's someone misunderstanding what's happening?
15:37:54 <minmay> yeah, skill points being discrete produces some weird results
15:38:42 <minmay> could multiply everything by 1000000 to hide that
15:39:34 <advil> fixed point math is usually the answer
15:39:49 <advil> injecting more of it into the training could would be a delicate operation though
15:45:13 <gammafunk> advil: 0 to 0.8 jump?
15:47:54 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
15:48:05 <advil> yeah, the jump from 0 to 0.8 at xl3
15:48:42 <advil> because the resolution of skill points for low skill levels is very poor
15:48:46 <advil> it gets better at higher levels
15:54:02 <advil> elliptic: I wonder if it would make sense to change just _gnoll_total_skill_cost to use finer-grained skill points for gnolls?
15:54:29 <advil> rather than trying to do the work of changing everything to be finer-grained
15:54:56 <elliptic> advil: how would that work? we'd need to be able to increase the actual skills by fractions of skill points
15:55:07 <elliptic> the problem isn't with _gnoll_total_skill_cost
15:55:35 <rchandra> maybe go back to the random assignment of skill points?
15:55:36 <advil> oh hm maybe I was misunderstaning...is 1 skill point at skill cost 0 0.8 skill levels?
15:55:56 <elliptic> at apt +8 it is
15:55:59 <advil> aha
15:56:49 <elliptic> at apt +0 it takes 5 skill points to get from 0.0 to 1.0, so it jumps 0.0 to 0.2 to 0.4 etc
15:56:55 <elliptic> this is just the same thing
15:57:00 <advil> yeah, I see now
15:57:05 <advil> I wasn't factoring in the apt
15:57:07 <elliptic> scaling everything by 10 would probably be relatively easy and safe
15:57:25 <elliptic> and enough to hide it again
15:57:43 <elliptic> (and not a bad idea for non-gnolls either I think)
15:58:07 <advil> yeah, that seems reasonable to do, but emphasis on the "relatively" :)
15:59:21 <advil> I really wish we had real fixed point, again
16:01:28 <gammafunk> just have to have our users install a fixed-point processor
16:06:03 <advil> the best library seems to be https://github.com/johnmcfarlane/cnl or maybe https://github.com/johnmcfarlane/fixed_point but there's no standard
16:06:32 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-324-gfc3775b: Don't train Stabbing and Traps on gnolls. 10(84 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fc3775ba1767
16:08:31 <elliptic> ^ minor buff, but at L15 it was still just 0.2 extra in each skill
16:08:36 <gammafunk> looks like that will have gnolls not train e.g. sacrificed stealth skill?
16:08:50 <elliptic> yeah, I have another commit to fix that more properly
16:08:54 <gammafunk> ok
16:09:13 <elliptic> (so that they don't train other skills faster because of it)
16:09:27 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-323-gc36d0dd (34)
16:10:34 <MarvinPA_> was letting them sacrifice arcana normally already discussed? (and likewise not letting them train other skills faster as a result)
16:10:38 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA
16:10:50 <elliptic> MarvinPA_: yeah, that's the idea
16:11:00 <MarvinPA> aha cool
16:11:00 <Sequell> MarvinPA: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
16:11:20 <MarvinPA> it also seems like they maybe should still be able to worship trog?
16:11:41 <gammafunk> oh, using the same kind of fix?
16:11:55 <elliptic> they'll get trog penance
16:11:55 <MarvinPA> and just not give penance for training magic schools
16:12:00 <elliptic> that's possible I guess
16:12:26 <elliptic> I think the two options are 1) forbid trog 2) allow trog, don't give penance
16:12:35 <elliptic> and I'm fine with either personally
16:12:43 <MarvinPA> yeah, i prefer the latter i think
16:13:05 <gammafunk> well there goes my 'rip GnBe' meme
16:13:16 <MarvinPA> it is special-caseish but i think the flavour works fine (you're not actively choosing to study magic, and casting will still give you penance)
16:14:46 <gammafunk> I think I initially went with the 1) in part because the practise spellcasting registration code needs some changes to accomodate that
16:14:50 <gammafunk> er
16:14:54 <gammafunk> practice training magic
16:15:09 <gammafunk> and probably it's actually as simple as just special-casing trog+gnolls
16:15:14 <Floodkiller> letting them train magic skills under Trog without penance does give them a better advantage than other species if they swap gods later on
16:15:37 <|amethyst> I was thinking that, but
16:15:41 <gammafunk> well it's a valid question as to whether trog caring about training spellcasting is even necessary
16:15:45 <|amethyst> it seems that kind of fits the adaptation theme
16:16:10 <gammafunk> I mean, it allows people to better set up god switches, but given trog wrath is that actually a problem
16:16:13 <gammafunk> oh
16:16:21 <gammafunk> I guess you can train skills for things like magical staves
16:16:24 <advil> could have it work like sac arcana does/will (with elliptic's next commit), it's not as if gnbe won't be strong
16:16:32 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  also, don't mark enhancer staves and staves of power/energy as useless under trog
16:16:35 <Floodkiller> I think the point of it was so that people don't save books and train spells after they are already good on melee+defense to prep for Trog swapping
16:16:39 <elliptic> hm, why does &k not reliably train skills?
16:16:42 <advil> i.e. not train, but not boost training of other skills
16:16:46 <elliptic> sometimes it does but sometimes it just raises XL
16:16:48 <advil> elliptic: it should!
16:16:51 <elliptic> this is making testing annoying
16:17:08 <gammafunk> Floodkiller: I'm not sure that this should be the point, really
16:17:08 <gammafunk> but training e.g. air and using a staff of air
16:17:17 <gammafunk> without any anger from trog is maybe a valid concern
16:17:23 <advil> I haven't noticed any obviously inconsistent behavior with &k
16:17:28 <gammafunk> although even then you could argue that trog shouldn't really care
16:17:30 <|amethyst> you don't even need air to use it, so they shouldn't be useless currently either
16:17:45 <gammafunk> well they're really really bad though
16:17:50 <|amethyst> so are clubs
16:17:53 <gammafunk> useless is a reasonable compromise
16:17:53 <MarvinPA> yeah, making enhancer staves not marked as useless under trog has been on my to-do for a long time
16:18:09 <Floodkiller> if you are concerned about magical staves and not training magic schools, you could remove the wrath and make using magic staves punishable
16:18:16 <Floodkiller> training wrath*
16:18:27 <MarvinPA> actually i guess it's fine to just do now? since staves are their own acq class
16:18:28 <gammafunk> pennance is what we call that I think
16:18:34 <gammafunk> wrath refers to the effects trog causes
16:18:51 <gammafunk> maybe that naming is not consistent in some places though
16:19:07 <Floodkiller> penance, then
16:19:29 <advil> elliptic: one thing is that if you use &l to lower your level &k may get confused
16:19:29 <MarvinPA> oh i literally already did it
16:19:40 <gammafunk> yeah, that's true, he could dislike using the staff in melee
16:20:03 <MarvinPA> %git 22e6b5a7
16:20:03 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.19-a0-1190-g22e6b5a: Don't mark some magical staves as useless under Trog 10(1 year, 1 month ago, 2 files, 10+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/22e6b5a7eddc
16:20:14 <gammafunk> gj, past MarvinPA
16:20:15 <elliptic> advil: it seems to be working now, it's possible that it was just a function of accidentally doing &l instead
16:20:21 <advil> ah yeah, that'll do it
16:20:31 <advil> lowering your level in general without adjusting skills may do weird things
16:21:42 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  oh, doh
17:09:25 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-324-gfc3775b (34)
17:27:58 <elliptic> hm, I was lying earlier - skill points are 10 times finer than I thought, the code is just weird
17:29:10 <elliptic> at this rate I'll end up rewriting half the code so that I understand what is going on
17:54:42 <advil> it could use it
17:57:02 <geekosaur> there's at least one past bug caused by people not realizing that
18:02:21 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-324-gfc3775b (34)
18:44:07 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-325-g246b9df: More gnoll skill code tweaks. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 60+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/246b9df9e082
18:44:30 <elliptic> I avoided rewriting much, though it could maybe use it
18:44:52 <elliptic> _train_skills() is really a mess
18:45:46 <elliptic> anyway there should be no issue now with re-enabling Sacrifice Arcana, the only thing that needs to be done for that (and should also be done for Sacrifice Stealth etc) is to make it not give bonus piety for your current skill
18:46:29 <gammafunk> ok, thanks
19:09:20 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-325-g246b9df (34)
21:44:14 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-326-g4d9243b: Don't claim to have quaffed !exp after saving and reloading a gnoll. 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4d9243b9c4ce
21:44:14 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-327-ge65fa8f: Scale you.total_experience and you.exp_available by 10. 10(13 minutes ago, 8 files, 28+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e65fa8f47b39
22:09:22 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-327-ge65fa8f (34)
22:09:56 -!- eb__ is now known as eb
22:15:25 <|amethyst> hm
22:15:49 <|amethyst> loading a saved Gnoll game gave me the skill menu as though I weren't training anything
22:20:30 <elliptic> |amethyst: after my commits above?
22:21:16 <elliptic> I had that too when testing 327, then I realized it had nothing to do with save transfer and fixed it with 326
22:29:01 <|amethyst> elliptic:  ah, no, this was CAO current
22:30:46 <gammafunk> &versions
22:30:54 <Sequell> CAO: 0.21-a0-322-ga284228, CBRO: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373, CDO: none, CJR: 0.21-a0-325-g246b9df, CPO: 0.21-a0-325-g246b9df, CUE: 0.20.1-1-g8b1a95d, CWZ: 0.21-a0-277-geaec956, CXC: 0.21-a0-321-g91e3373, LLD: 0.21-a0-142-gdd972a7a06
23:39:41 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.21-a0-328-g6a5e2f3: Allow gnolls to sacrifice arcana, but don't give them extra piety for sacrificing a skill. 10(60 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6a5e2f31a8be
23:52:43 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 6a5e2f3 #8779 : elliptic): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/281815919