00:59:32 -!- illusion is now known as Guest59461 01:03:40 -!- mikee__ is now known as mikee_ 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-287-gd2df3b7: Gnolls Redux Part I: Every skill is always trained (##crawl/not mikee) 10(35 hours ago, 7 files, 98+ 55-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d2df3b7b55b0 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-288-g8a4a258: Gnolls Redux Part II: Increase apts and stats (elliptic) 10(35 hours ago, 2 files, 33+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8a4a258fa7a1 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-289-g0c25114: Gnolls Redux Part III: Remove stat lock 10(2 days ago, 10 files, 9+ 90-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0c2511454754 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-290-gb8a99bc: Gnolls Redux Part IV: Disable cross-training 10(35 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b8a99bc144c4 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-291-g6782bc9: Gnolls Redux Part V: Disallow worshiping Trog 10(23 hours ago, 2 files, 39+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6782bc902fb4 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-292-g1447a82: Gnolls Redux Part VI: Disable Ashenzari skill transfer 10(35 hours ago, 3 files, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1447a82f0185 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-293-g42af060: Gnolls Redux Part VII: Prevent Ru from offering Sacrifice Arcana 10(23 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42af060f5c6c 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-294-gdb0367d: Move species_def to its own definition header 10(9 hours ago, 6 files, 57+ 47-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db0367d17414 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-295-gf0bd51c: Add a function to get a species definition 10(9 hours ago, 2 files, 45+ 36-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f0bd51c723d7 02:35:03 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489: Gnolls Redux Part VIII: Save compatibility for stat lock removal 10(9 hours ago, 2 files, 31+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f4b7489fcfa6 02:50:39 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489 (34) 03:01:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489 (34) 03:09:16 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489 (34) 03:43:06 -!- mibe is now known as mibe_ 03:56:21 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-297-ga3d34c2: Update the manual and the description for Gnolls 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 17+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a3d34c202e2a 03:59:05 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-297-ga3d34c2 (34) 04:09:14 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-297-ga3d34c2 (34) 04:17:24 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-297-ga3d34c2 (34) 04:40:38 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-297-ga3d34c2 (34) 08:23:12 huh, conflicts are amazingly minor 08:34:36 are these newnewnewgnolls? 09:06:17 It's funny how many gnomes are played now according to http://crawl.develz.org/watch.htm 09:48:35 rebase spam incoming 09:50:31 gammafunk: I noticed there's an issue with help, getting help on particular skills is disable too. That reuses the MenuItems for the skill changes, so something more complicated probably needs to happen than them just being unselectable 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-298-g22656de: Add messaging about skill level targets to weapon information 10(8 weeks ago, 7 files, 273+ 80-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/22656de234c6 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-299-g666378c: Implement training target backend 10(6 weeks ago, 13 files, 239+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/666378c9bdaf 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-300-gdc43d3e: Change skill screen foreground color in help mode to light gray 10(6 weeks ago, 2 files, 9+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dc43d3e0c3f6 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-301-gddd4a7a: Add UI for skill target editing for console/local tiles 10(5 days ago, 16 files, 836+ 143-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ddd4a7a006aa 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-302-g057d29e: Fix a fairly nasty bug leading to blank webtiles sometimes 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/057d29e54448 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-303-g0c39091: Generalize webtiles text input code and use it for skill targets 10(2 days ago, 10 files, 344+ 159-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0c39091bd6fe 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-304-g734d613: Add a command to set skill targets from an item description 10(34 hours ago, 5 files, 176+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/734d6135de15 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-305-g9069007: Disable training targets for new^3gnolls 10(34 minutes ago, 4 files, 22+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/906900760231 09:51:40 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-306-gf2696e7: Update help file for training targets 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 29+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f2696e78d557 09:55:53 I might just merge this, it probably needs more testing/feedback but at this point it won't really get that in a branch 10:03:57 I guess I can at least give travis a few more minutes 10:31:46 ugh "I've done my share of ghost trolling (never with bots, plz don't blackball me). The best way to do it is drop insane ghosts in sewers because they are sometimes totally inescapable if the player is in shallow water and teleport will often be an unsafe option or not save the player from further encounters with the ghost. The best ime is TrWz with meph and slow, amnesia magic dart, use cflame to kill yourself with brilliance active so 10:31:46 that you needn't waste skill points on magic. Players are reluctant to bail on portals. This strat produces excellent KDRs with hilarious termTVs, often showing absolutely no hope of escaping death one or two turns into the encounter." 10:32:05 why do video game players suck 10:32:43 I mean sure, no bots involved, but he basically just admitted to griefing for termtv lulz 10:39:17 !lg * recent place=sewer ckiller="a player ghost" s=killer ?: n>3 10:39:19 52 games for * (recent place=sewer ckiller='a player ghost'): 9x Chudwraith's ghost, 6x agricola's ghost, 5x leeig's ghost, 5x mightyjack22's ghost, 5x bande's ghost, 5x tschems's ghost, 5x qw's ghost, 4x kumo's ghost, 4x burnthydra's ghost, 4x burgundy's ghost 10:39:28 at least that doesn't seem to have been happening a huge amount 10:42:14 !lg Chudwraith s=ckiller 10:42:15 156 games for Chudwraith: 33x cloud, 14x starvation, 10x an ogre, 7x a gnoll, 7x an orc warrior, 6x an orc priest, 6x a player ghost, 4x Grinder, 3x Duvessa, 3x a hobgoblin, 3x winning, 3x a hydra, 3x Edmund, 3x an orc wizard, 2x a wight, 2x leaving, 2x a worm, 2x Prince Ribbit, 2x a jackal, 2x Sigmund, 2x an ice beast, 2x Natasha, 2x a two-headed ogre, 2x Crazy Yiuf, an oklob plant, a swamp worm,... 10:42:24 that account does seem to be largely a ghost-creation char though 10:43:32 about 1/3 of the games are suicide by starvation or cloud 10:46:21 also a lot of portal deaths 10:53:21 imo that account should be banned (even if it's probably not being used any more), it's actually worse than the doesnty thing 10:57:24 It's obnoxious, but if we're going to ban it, we should also have some sort of explicit code of conduct saying that deliberately leaving griefing ghosts is a bannable offense. I wouldn't just assume that such behavior is even frowned on, much less bannable. 10:58:46 gammafunk: thought re: shaftrobin and also some kinds of griefing: only spawn ghosts on level load when the player is within a certain level band of the ghost. That prevents underleveled shafting and also orbrun ghosts. 11:00:07 well, if we keep ghosts, I'd be in favor of having such a code of conduct 11:00:17 did we ban doesnty's bot account? 11:00:33 what's his bot account do? 11:01:03 he was running qw to produce ceck ghosts to make the point that ghosts are bad 11:01:13 he was banned from this channel, at least 11:04:50 ah 11:06:18 yeah, that's pretty obnoxious. Tho if we do normalize ghosts to some degree (including stripping brands like chaos, venom, draining, and distortion) that would solve that particular grief. 11:06:30 yeah 11:06:50 It wouldn't solve SpEn griefing, but nerfing monster dazzling spray would 11:06:57 that spell is just absurd for monsters 11:07:16 !lg * recent ckiller="a player ghost" s=killer ?: n>100 11:07:19 3134 games for * (recent ckiller='a player ghost'): 391x qw's ghost, 191x leeig's ghost, 161x hilaritas's ghost, 155x antares's ghost, 154x Philosophy's ghost, 151x burnthydra's ghost, 151x tschems's ghost, 150x bangee's ghost, 140x bande's ghost, 136x LAYA's ghost, 136x Paps's ghost, 124x yrara's ghost, 120x Esse's ghost, 118x dscm's ghost, 113x grandjackal's ghost, 110x dricus's ghost, 108x xorb... 11:07:31 Chud isn't in here. are these *all* bots? 11:07:41 huh 11:07:44 !lg leeig / won 11:07:45 7/2930 games for leeig: N=7/2930 (0.24%) 11:07:53 I looked at leeig and it wasn't obviously griefing 11:07:55 !lg hilaritas / won 11:07:55 1/1500 games for hilaritas: N=1/1500 (0.07%) 11:08:08 yeah, i can't honestly tell, just wondering 11:08:20 In general, weaker players will get a lot more ghost kills just by virtue of having more dead chars 11:08:52 !lg * recent start>2017 ckiller="a player ghost" s=killer ?: n>20 11:08:55 18521 games for * (recent start>2017 ckiller='a player ghost'): 345x qw's ghost, 161x hilaritas's ghost, 155x antares's ghost, 151x burnthydra's ghost, 150x bangee's ghost, 137x tschems's ghost, 125x leeig's ghost, 111x bande's ghost, 109x Paps's ghost, 99x LAYA's ghost, 96x grandjackal's ghost, 96x w00t's ghost, 93x yrara's ghost, 91x ironman's ghost, 89x letownia's ghost, 85x DeadlyKitten's ghos... 11:09:05 !kw recent 11:09:05 Keyword: recent => cv>=0.19 11:09:21 !lg * recent start>2017-08-01 ckiller="a player ghost" s=killer ?: n>20 11:09:22 the chudwraith one was easy to identify because of all the suicides, plus he described the MO in the tavern post 11:09:23 1895 games for * (recent start>2017-08-01 ckiller='a player ghost'): 130x qw's ghost, 96x bangee's ghost, 60x letownia's ghost, 56x ENHL's ghost, 55x iamoutofideas's ghost, 51x RememberNoOTab's ghost, 46x ThereIsNoGod's ghost, 45x birb's ghost, 41x deartome's ghost, 38x Blomdor's ghost, 38x mlskboy's ghost, 38x Stenella's ghost, 37x felicette's ghost, 34x sparc's ghost, 33x harshax's ghost, 33x At... 11:10:22 Lasty_: if we go the normalization route a simple thing would just be to do max(speed, 10) 11:11:14 or maybe do that contingent on player xl or depth or something 11:11:20 I was actually thinking of setting all ghosts to either speed 8, 10, or 12, depending on whether we want them to be trivial to avoid, easy to avoid, or hard to avoid. 11:12:07 IMO the logic of "being a ghost gives you a common means of locomotion and it has a fixed speed" seems totally reasonable to me 11:12:22 ditto all other normalizations. 11:13:54 heh in that list above, hilaritis' predominant killer is player ghosts, so I guess they're just perpetuating the cycle 11:14:22 Thinking about the role of ghosts in the game makes me want to have stair guardians in a few places, e.g. Vaults, Zot, mb Lair. Some sort of beefy patrolling monster that you aren't expected to defeat, but which you must pass to get to the staircase. 11:14:41 I'm not sure that would add up to a fun experience to repeat 11:15:17 but I might try it out locally just to see how it plays. 11:15:40 occasionally the minotaur works like that 11:15:52 which is sort of interesting, but v hard ime 11:16:04 because it's usually when you see him and he has a distortion weapon or something 11:17:07 yeah, the idea here is that this would always be something that's terrible to fight at the time you're expected to encounter it, and something which you could easily escape if you leave the area. 11:17:43 So probably something like slow movement, moderate ranged attack of some kind, strong melee attack, high defenses and regen to prevent kiting. 11:18:13 Alternately, replace slow movement with teleporting back to its patrol zone if it gets too far away 11:18:52 could be interesting 11:20:34 one collateral effect would be that stairdancing the main entry stair to a branch would be much, much scarier 11:21:13 ah that is interesting 11:21:27 though branch entries are already harder because there's only one 11:21:30 true 11:25:44 gammafunk: did you notice that actual training amounts for gnolls seem to separate over time? I guess it's because of small random differences in how skill points are applied during the training process? 11:27:29 e.g. if I &A0&k19, I get 11.9, 11.8. 11.7 apparently randomly distributed for current skill levels 11:28:52 basically revealing that skill training is very weird 11:30:54 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-307-gff2fce1: Don't show 100% training rate info in describe for gnolls 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ff2fce1b1fbe 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-298-g255219b: Add messaging about skill level targets to weapon information 10(8 weeks ago, 7 files, 273+ 80-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/255219b5b395 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-299-ga7893f8: Implement training target backend 10(6 weeks ago, 13 files, 239+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a7893f84d51c 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-300-g42f6fbc: Change skill screen foreground color in help mode to light gray 10(6 weeks ago, 2 files, 9+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42f6fbce7887 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-301-gea5fd92: Add UI for skill target editing for console/local tiles 10(5 days ago, 16 files, 836+ 143-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea5fd92a9cfc 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-302-gf3702fd: Fix a fairly nasty bug leading to blank webtiles sometimes 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f3702fd99c13 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-303-g8c2e61a: Generalize webtiles text input code and use it for skill targets 10(2 days ago, 10 files, 344+ 159-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8c2e61a1a0b1 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-304-gd461b0e: Add a command to set skill targets from an item description 10(2 days ago, 5 files, 176+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d461b0ec437a 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-305-g5029fa9: Disable training targets for new^3gnolls 10(2 hours ago, 4 files, 22+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5029fa9ab8f5 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-306-gc847d3a: Update help file for training targets 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 29+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c847d3a2b133 11:35:31 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-307-g27874c7: Don't show 100% training rate info in describe for gnolls 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/27874c795c9e 11:36:57 whew 11:37:05 that probably still needs a bunch of ui feedback, at least 11:50:13 "I just don't think hybrid characters are strong or useful period, especially since they removed several of the biggest payoffs for hybridizing like the haste spell." 11:50:31 I'm just finding all the quotes today 12:08:37 !lg * recent ckiller=targeting|cloud|starvation s=name ?: n>10 12:08:38 267 games for * (recent ckiller=targeting|cloud|starvation): 47x Chudwraith, 20x Psyclone, 19x qw, 17x leeig, 17x bangee, 16x laz, 15x p0werm0de, 14x WucadMu, 12x pokeman, 12x THUG4L1F3, 12x nebgrebaes, 11x anet, 11x thatJJthatGod, 11x sscrono2, 11x Paps, 11x icedessert, 11x salmon 12:09:13 approximation of suicide 12:09:19 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-307-g27874c7 (34) 12:09:20 only chudwraith looks obviously problematic 12:36:43 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I don't know if you noticed this yet, but apparently gnolls are seeing "Level 0.0 Stabbing" and "Level 0.0 Traps" in their dumps 12:39:03 hahaha I just saw that too 12:39:10 at least they don't get trained 12:40:01 some day we need a major tag bump 12:42:18 hmm maybe the xp table columns should be re-ordered given nospawn (looking at that same morgue) 12:42:27 so that the spawn tables are last 12:42:30 er 12:42:32 spawn columns 12:43:08 that table is great btw 12:43:34 not sure who did it 13:20:41 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-307-g27874c7 (34) 13:25:55 IIRC it was a pull request 13:26:05 er wait, which table? 13:35:48 Plant spawns on staircase 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11234 by Midn8 13:51:07 |amethyst: oh yeah, I probably should have checked for deprecated skills when enabling them 13:51:29 advil: the term is like is "gnolls redux" 13:51:56 !kw gnollsredux vlong>=0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489 13:51:57 Defined keyword: gnollsredux => vlong>=0.21-a0-296-gf4b7489 13:52:14 !kw newnewgnolls gnollsredux 13:52:15 Defined keyword: newnewgnolls => gnollsredux 13:58:28 describe.cc: In function ‘std::__cxx11::string _skill_target_desc(skill_type, double, int)’: 13:58:31 describe.cc:881:67: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions [-Wsign-compare] 13:58:34 const bool hypothetical = !crawl_state.need_save || (training != you.training[skill]); 13:58:37 advil: ^ 13:58:38 I'll take a look at that in a bit 14:11:00 oh I'm getting a ton of warnings it seems 14:11:26 but they're all that samed kind of warning about comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressiosn 14:11:44 hmm, maybe it's a gcc warning 14:11:59 I'll see if I can see them in travis logs 14:12:22 yeah 14:13:02 perhaps one travis per compiler should run with the warning=>error setting 14:17:36 surprised that clang doesn't include that in -Wall though 14:19:14 weird warning in dgn-labyrinth.cc on travis clang 14:26:09 hmm, rather, that warning behaves differently in clang++? 14:29:25 advil: I didn't actually get one for dgn-labyrinth.cc 14:29:31 is this after you applied a fix? 14:29:41 that looks to be something old 14:29:47 I don't see it on local clang builds either 14:29:58 it's something about a variadic arg function 14:30:08 just something I noticed when checking these warnings 14:30:22 if you look in travis at a clang build you'll see it 14:33:35 ok 14:34:00 advil: this skill target is a bit spooky; not sure that it's any kind of problem, but 14:34:14 due to my rc lua, all my skills were disabled at game start 14:34:31 but when I first killed something I get a skill menu 14:35:51 isn't that the normal behavior now if you start with all skills disabled? 14:36:00 I get that in wizmode sometimes, but it's otherwise hard to do 14:36:01 er 14:36:04 normal behavior before 14:44:34 you can also get all skills disabled if the only thing you're training hits 27, i think 14:47:08 maybe you could always do this with lua 14:47:14 -!- molotove1 is now known as molotove 14:47:26 disable every skill with you.train() 15:21:02 makes sense, those functions don't tend to do a lot of error checking 15:27:08 BZZZ (L17 BaGl) ERROR: range check error (37 / 33) (Spider:1) 15:27:21 !crashlog 15:27:33 17806. BZZZ, XL17 BaGl, T:39828 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/BZZZ/crash-BZZZ-20170928-192707.txt 15:29:37 hm, that's probably me 15:31:42 !lm BZZZ -log 15:31:43 1165. BZZZ, XL17 BaGl, T:39828 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/BZZZ/crash-BZZZ-20170928-192707.txt 15:32:04 !dump BZZZ 15:32:04 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/BZZZ/BZZZ.txt 15:33:12 BZZZ (L17 BaGl) ERROR: range check error (37 / 33) (Spider:1) 15:35:04 maybe 15:35:10 not entirely sure what's going on here 15:43:55 ok, staves is it 15:58:43 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-308-gf4f4644: Attempt to quiet some gcc warnings 10(16 minutes ago, 3 files, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f4f46448301a 15:58:43 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-309-g57ddf66: Don't crash when describing staves 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57ddf66bb2bd 16:00:45 ??rebuild 16:00:45 rebuild[1/2]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://underhound.eu:81/rebuild/ http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rebuild/ http://crawl.xtahua.com/rebuild/ https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rebuild/ Bug |amethyst or Nap.Kin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 16:04:06 Game crashed, now I'm in the Abyss. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11235 by Runemage 16:04:26 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-309-g57ddf66 (34) 16:05:21 ugh I feel bad for that person (that is BZZZ), but I don't think there's anything we can do about that? 16:05:49 they made it through gammafunk_its_a_trap twice, with a crash after each time, and then got abyssed and died on the third try 16:06:32 !lg bzzz 16:06:33 198. BZZZ the Conjurer (L5 OpCj of Sif Muna), slain by a worker ant on D:3 on 2017-09-28 01:53:48, with 184 points after 3714 turns and 0:11:18. 16:06:34 gammafunk juicing dem stats 16:06:37 i don't think they died 16:06:39 just got abyssed 16:07:05 !lg BZZZ 16:07:05 198. BZZZ the Conjurer (L5 OpCj of Sif Muna), slain by a worker ant on D:3 on 2017-09-28 01:53:48, with 184 points after 3714 turns and 0:11:18. 16:07:14 !lg BZZZ -2 16:07:14 197/198. BZZZ the Magician (L9 DrCj of Sif Muna), slain by a rust devil on D:6 (cheibrodos_iron_armory) on 2017-09-28 00:19:04, with 2418 points after 9352 turns and 0:40:45. 16:07:15 !lastgames bzzz 16:07:16 oh that sounds like a nice tv for me to watch 16:07:19 Last 10 games for bzzz: L5 OpCj^Sif (a worker ant), L9 DrCj^Sif (a rust devil), L7 DrCj^ (leaving), L5 BaGl^ (Grinder), L7 BaGl^Oka (an orc), L8 BaGl^ (a gnoll), L6 BaGl^ (Pikel), L7 OpAs^ (Duvessa), L5 OpCj^ (a player ghost), L6 OpCj^Qaz (Grinder) 16:07:30 so if we wanted to, someone with permission could download the save, edit it so they're out of the abyss and clear of the vault, and then reupload it. i'm not sure whether that is something we would do 16:07:48 !lg BZZZ place=abyss 16:07:49 49. BZZZ the Covert (L12 DrCj of Vehumet), slain by a large abomination on Abyss:1 on 2017-09-21 05:20:37, with 19312 points after 23436 turns and 2:12:32. 16:07:59 hmm maybe I misunderstood 16:08:05 advil: the bug report doesn't say die 16:08:05 advil: that's basically up to the server admin 16:08:09 ohh I see 16:08:17 Lasty_: btw we may want to think about what to do with gnollsredux and Ru 16:08:22 yeah, they were just asking for a takeback on the abyssing 16:08:33 and I misread 16:08:34 I disabled sac arcana offerings for gnolls but I realize that some other sacs have the same issue 16:08:39 gammafunk: yeah, I saw that 16:09:19 maybe they could be offered but still dump the XP, I'm not sure if that's a good idea though 16:09:19 So, one way to approach this would be to disable extra skillpoints piety for these for gnolls; that would probably balance out overall. Another way would be to prevent any of them from being offered. 16:09:20 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-309-g57ddf66 (34) 16:10:00 hrm, yeah 16:10:00 The benefit of not pumping XP into these skills is small enough that it's probably offset by not giving piety for the skillpoints eaten 16:11:40 !lm bzzz x=tiles 16:11:40 1171. [2017-09-28 20:10:19] [tiles=true] BZZZ the Magician (L4 DrCj of Okawaru) became a worshipper of Okawaru on turn 2141. (D:2) 16:12:19 thanks for finding an epic its_a_trap tv advil 16:12:28 heh 16:12:34 my vault query only found a single cloud_chamber tv so far today 16:12:35 too bad you don't get all three tries, probably 16:13:04 actually I wonder if the ttyrec recorded properly 16:13:07 I assume it did 16:16:45 gammafunk: any thoughts on my suggestions yesterday re: ghosts? Even if we want to hold off on big questions like whether they should give XP or be confined to vaults, any interest in normalizing their defenses, resistances, speed, etc? 16:17:54 I think there's definitely interest in that 16:18:16 the concern was mostly a bunch of work doing that and then we just decide something like "remove ghosts" 16:18:27 but that rebalance isn't incompatible with advil's idea either 16:19:13 I still don't like the idea of 0 XP ghosts since I think that's a substantial annoyince for a feature that exists for the fun/community aspect 16:19:24 but maybe I care about that more than everyone else 16:19:46 there's also that idea that both you and hellmonk had (albeit in different ways) 16:20:01 which was to just make the ghost be some harmless flavor thing that warns the player 16:20:26 you suggested putting them behind glass but you could probably let them wander as some kind of 0 XP peaceful monster 16:21:57 I guess i was most partial to the idea where you elect to fight the ghost and the ghost gives XP and a loot item that could be higher quality with depth 16:22:05 Maybe a mix of non-peaceful ones behind glass in staged fights and peaceful ones wandering free 16:22:29 but IMO the end goal should be no-reward ghosts or else mocked-up ghosts when no morgue is available 16:23:49 yeah, no-reward "decorative" ghosts would be fine and it would also be fine to do reward ghosts with mock-ups to prevent "ghost stuffing" 16:24:02 and yes ghost stuffing is a phrase I just invented 16:24:59 I'm sure there's some horrible site that uses it already 16:24:59 I can try to write up the ghost ideas that the three of us (me, you, advil) have agreed to be acceptable 16:28:15 woot 16:35:26 Gnoll redux (+8 train all skills always version): dropping weapon/shield appears to stop training relevant skill 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11236 by Gorice 17:14:53 zircondrogin (L13 DsWr) ASSERT(xp >= 0) in 'player.cc' at line 2702 failed. (D:8) 17:15:45 zircondrogin (L13 DsWr) ASSERT(xp >= 0) in 'player.cc' at line 2702 failed. (D:8) 17:16:09 !crash 17:16:10 17810. zircondrogin, XL13 DsWr, T:29729 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/zircondrogin/crash-zircondrogin-20170928-211544.txt 17:17:13 zircondrogin (L13 DsWr) ASSERT(xp >= 0) in 'player.cc' at line 2702 failed. (D:8) 17:17:42 advil: anything related to your skill menu changes? 17:18:08 looks like they were looking at an item description probably of the morningstar 17:27:04 skills.cc: In function ‘int _calc_skill_cost_level(int, int)’: 17:27:04 skills.cc:1088:5: warning: no previous declaration for ‘int _calc_skill_cost_level(int, int)’ [-Wmissing-declarations] 17:27:07 int _calc_skill_cost_level(int xp, int start) 17:29:33 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-310-g9a49fba: Declare a function as static 10(51 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9a49fba305b0 17:29:33 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-311-g9ae2175: Unbrace 10(42 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ae21755b45d 17:32:50 advil: might be nice to not add the hotkey about training targets for gnolls at all 17:33:03 but if that's an issue, let me know; I can look into it later 18:09:22 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-311-g9ae2175 (34) 18:09:23 advil: if we do decide to back out BZZZ's banishment, it looks like the resources they spent surviving the vault in a pre-crash timeline were: heroism, finesse, !invis, !haste, and some charges of /lightning. also, on the other side of the door there should still be 2 redbacks and 3 wolf spiders 18:13:02 can we just all agree that for debugging reasons like this that my vault is a masterpiece 18:15:31 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-311-g9ae2175 (34) 20:13:45 interesting gnoll change 20:14:28 -!- alexjurkiewicz2 is now known as alexjurkiewicz 20:22:13 for https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11236 , I think a check for gnoll might be needed in _check_stop_train() in skills.cc line 507? not quite sure yet 20:23:49 yeah that's where I'm tentatively placing it 20:23:59 but I want to read a bit more to make sure that's the best place 20:29:57 these compile warnings just showed up when they haven't before for me, don't know what to make of them (Windows/MSYS2, Local Tiles): http://dpaste.com/2BKECBC 20:31:05 not sure about those 20:31:51 it's just a straight build from master without changes, so I guess I'll check through recent commits quick 20:34:13 looks like this commit? http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ea5fd92a9cfc1807a6baec22cf856402dcecd618 22:16:56 Barbs damage doesn't trigger when forced to move by mesmerization 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11237 by Leszczynek 22:52:28 those warnings are related to things I changed 22:52:40 I don't know wtf is up with these warnings being so different across systems 22:53:08 thanks for catching the static function gammafunk, I saw it on the CAO rebuild and then forgot to push 22:53:32 but that warning doesn't show up on my system or on travis 22:55:01 ok, that warning for bufsz should be harmless but is easily fixed 22:55:23 <|amethyst> which warning doesn't show up on travis? 22:55:53 I logged in today and updated and all my skills were being trained simultaneously on my Ds. 22:56:07 doh 22:57:14 neizenel: on your "Ds"? 22:57:23 hrm 22:57:25 <|amethyst> probably half of this stuff that is 'unsigned' shouldn't be 22:57:28 DsWn 22:57:43 neizenel: were they all skills you were capable of training? 22:57:49 Yeah 22:57:55 ok, not sure about that 22:58:02 seem related to advil's change 22:58:18 mine shouldn't change any training 22:59:17 yeah I'm just guessing at possible culpability 22:59:35 <|amethyst> +#if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 34 22:59:35 <|amethyst> + // Gnolls always train all skills. 22:59:35 <|amethyst> + if (th.getMinorVersion() < TAG_MINOR_GNOLLS_REDUX) 22:59:35 <|amethyst> + you.train[j] = you.train_alt[j] = TRAINING_ENABLED; 22:59:35 <|amethyst> +#endif 22:59:41 <|amethyst> you know what's missing there? 22:59:50 lol 23:00:24 not my fault 23:00:33 if statements are too difficult to implement properly 23:00:54 let's just agree this was advil's bug and fix it and move on 23:01:08 heh 23:01:13 well, that shouldn't cause any major longterm problems I hope.... 23:01:18 since that's just enabling skills, right? 23:01:21 <|amethyst> !commit Fix gammafunk's bug (advil) 23:01:22 03|amethyst ⛐ 0.21-a0-2035-g43b2864: Fix gammafunk's bug (advil) 10(in the future, 40 files, 229+ 481-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/commit.png?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=43b2864 23:01:59 I guess those transfered games have training skills just messed up and there's no retroactive fixing 23:02:06 but we should probably push a fix soon and rebuild? 23:02:09 since that's kind of annoying 23:02:40 <|amethyst> hm 23:02:56 <|amethyst> what happens if the skill isn't legitimately trainable? Can you turn it off still? 23:03:17 ah 23:03:21 <|amethyst> because otherwise this could permanently cripple Trog worshippers, or for that matter anyone who doesn't have spells of all schools memorised 23:03:23 that could be an issue 23:03:31 hrm, I guess I can test that 23:03:36 I have pre-transfer saves 23:03:37 er 23:03:40 they are gnolls 23:03:44 hopefully I still have that build 23:03:58 that's much more exciting than my stupid description-related crashes 23:03:58 <|amethyst> I've got dozens of pre-transfer saves here 23:04:00 cool, please do test if you have time 23:04:06 and |amethyst yes, the (unsigned) int situation is a mess 23:04:09 <|amethyst> I haven't built the new version yet 23:04:12 I should have made a non-gnoll one and tested it 23:04:20 I spent too much time testing gnolls themselves 23:05:13 <|amethyst> advil: generally I think one should only use unsigned if you need the extra bit of range and/or the exact overflow behaviour is important and/or you are dealing with collections of bits rather than numbers 23:05:27 <|amethyst> advil: we use unsigned all over the place for other reasons 23:05:40 the player fields are all unsigned 23:05:43 <|amethyst> yeah 23:05:49 which is annoying 23:05:55 <|amethyst> "it can't be negative" is a particularly bad reason to make something unsigned, and I think either that happened here, or 23:06:01 I'm pretty sure someone did that to enforce non-negativity 23:06:01 yeah 23:06:09 <|amethyst> maybe it's old enough that it needed to support systems where "int" only goes up to 32768 23:06:12 <|amethyst> s/8/7/ 23:06:19 |amethyst: do we have a policy on modifying save files for players adversely affected by bugs? i know for example we've done it for people in teleport closets but i imagine not every kind of bug qualifies 23:06:34 it's up to the admin, amalloy 23:06:41 well, that's |amethyst in this case 23:06:42 we don't have a policy for that because we sort of can't 23:06:44 <|amethyst> amalloy: if it breaks the game and someone is happy to do it, then that's fine 23:06:51 specifically https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11235 where the player completed a difficult vault twice, triggering a crash after each one; on the third time through the vault they got abyssed 23:07:04 I watched that TV btw 23:07:05 they even helped me identify the crash 23:07:07 i don't mind editing the save myself if someone gives me the file 23:07:14 <|amethyst> hm 23:07:16 but i don't have permission to do the stuff on cao 23:07:19 they were playing pretty nutso and were very lucky to make it through both times 23:07:22 <|amethyst> how would you fix it though? 23:07:47 <|amethyst> beat the vault yourself for them? 23:07:59 not to stop anyone from changing it if they want but they made lots of mistakes 23:08:02 |amethyst: i'd enter wizmode, &~ back to the floor with the vault, and put things back into roughly the shape they were in after the first successful attempt (i looked at the -tv) 23:08:20 gammafunk: where were you seeing a training target related toggle for gnolls? I intended to remove them all 23:08:22 then save but not serialise the wizmode bit 23:08:35 <|amethyst> what about things like XP? 23:08:52 advil: yes, it mentions "Press s to set a training target" 23:08:58 ah ok 23:09:12 then you hit s and it says "Gnolls can't set a training target!" 23:09:19 yeah, I must have missed that one 23:09:19 |amethyst: kill the monsters in the vault with &^k, was my plan 23:09:23 thx 23:09:40 i guess i can't get it exactly perfect 23:09:45 well they also used consumables 23:10:01 <|amethyst> I can give you access to the save if you want to go for it 23:10:08 again they were lucky to make it through that vault even once the way they were playing 23:10:08 <|amethyst> this is more involved than I'd usually do 23:11:04 <|amethyst> this is their trunk save? 23:11:16 !lm bzzz bagl x=cv 23:11:17 176. [2017-09-28 19:43:26] [cv=0.21-a] BZZZ the Impregnable (L17 BaGl of Okawaru) was cast into the Abyss! (the power of Zot) (Spider:1) 23:11:21 i guess so 23:12:06 <|amethyst> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/BZZZ-abyssed.cs 23:12:43 i dunno, i am less convinced that this is a great plan. i feel bad for the player but i hadn't thought about the reconciling differences in the universe between the successful-attempt tv i watched and the current game state 23:13:15 well if you want to do the work to fix it 23:13:25 I was more pointing out that it would be at least fair if they died 23:13:50 perfect reconciliation is essentially never possible 23:13:58 <|amethyst> advil: yeah, "can't be negative" is a really bad reason to make something unsigned, because that means you can no longer assert that it is positive 23:14:25 <|amethyst> advil: (usefully assert) 23:14:25 i don't buy that. they were lucky to survive, but so what? players get lucky all the time. that's the point. this time they *did* get lucky, twice, and having that taken away twice and only the bad attempt stick is lame 23:14:44 <|amethyst> advil: 4294967295 isn't usually an improvement over -1 for such a number 23:14:54 yeah it's a player experience thing, and as a server admin or someone who's been given rights by the server admin in this case 23:14:58 you have the right to do it 23:15:04 but you also sort of set a precedent there 23:15:07 to fix unfairness 23:15:10 yeah...I hope I didn't introduce any overflows when trying to get rid of those warnings 23:15:17 keep in mind there are gnbe right now that transfered their saves 23:15:24 lol 23:15:27 and now have a doomed game 23:15:42 but it's not really harmful either way; more if you want to do the work 23:18:56 |amethyst: let me know if you can look at that save or if I should just rebuild an old version 23:19:12 <|amethyst> I just built the new version, let me test 23:19:38 <|amethyst> hm, which of these 658 saves to try 23:19:48 <|amethyst> we'll go with "bisector, a level 1 Human Wanderer (WIZ)" 23:19:53 lol 23:20:24 surprised they're not names like "sporulator, the level 1 Vine Stalker of Fedhas" 23:20:27 <|amethyst> it looks like it doesn't actually enable skills that you can't train 23:20:33 phew 23:20:34 <|amethyst> no, that one would be vsfe 23:20:51 <|amethyst> or vinfed 23:21:31 yeah, that sort of makes sense 23:21:34 <|amethyst> (which doesn't actually exist here, but I do have "fed" and "fefe" and "fefee" and "fefefe" 23:21:37 <|amethyst> ) 23:21:44 re the not enabling non-trainable skills 23:21:51 <|amethyst> oh, and "fife" and "fifi" and "fofifum" 23:22:56 <|amethyst> and "foo" and "food" and "foodie" and "fooi" and "fook" 23:23:12 <|amethyst> and then some really weird ones 23:23:14 <|amethyst> like "gammafunk" 23:23:26 <|amethyst> and "advil" 23:24:12 <|amethyst> KiloByte.cs says "This game comes from an incompatible version of Crawl (0.11-a0-3104-g74f4db3)." 23:24:20 dang 23:24:24 I still really want to know where I got that one mystery Barachian save I randomly found 23:24:35 Its player name: The Uslurper 23:25:16 new unique swamp slurm???? 23:25:27 naturally 23:25:35 we need to maybe go with a plant monster on that one 23:25:53 but we're still waiting on hellmonk's fedhas rework!!! 23:26:17 I might revert that commit where I tried to get rid of sign warnings 23:26:36 JackS81 (L11 DsFi) ASSERT(xp >= 0) in 'player.cc' at line 2702 failed. (Lair:1) 23:26:40 I'm a little worried there is something stupid in here and I'm too tired to see it 23:26:52 !crashlog 23:27:02 17812. JackS81, XL11 DsFi, T:9017 (milestone): https://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/JackS81/crash-JackS81-20170929-032636.txt 23:28:36 wow, &S is a difficult command to use. i was just trying to make a monster disappear without giving xp, and i have to: choose a summon durability between 1 and 6 (no idea what any of those numbers mean); choose what way to pretend the thing was summoned; if i choose spell, name the exact spell i want to pretend summoned it 23:30:17 aha 23:30:18 got it 23:30:41 <|amethyst> advil: target lower than the current level, or something else? 23:31:11 it's when the current level is very close to the target level, and it's trying to calculate how close 23:31:15 so 13.9 to 14 23:32:55 why, I'm not yet sure 23:33:14 <|amethyst> I blame it on 'double' 23:33:20 <|amethyst> that's probably not actually the problem, but 23:33:39 amalloy: why aren't you using &G? 23:33:54 it can have targets like "los" 23:34:01 and all dismissals don't award XP 23:34:16 double was my first thought too 23:34:23 i thought of &G but i didn't know what kinds of targets it allowed. plus i didn't want to banish everything 23:34:27 but skill training calculations are quite weird 23:34:28 er, dismiss 23:34:48 i ended up just &k'ing the durably-summoned monsters from zot traps, and leaving 6 angry spiders on the other side of the door from him, just like after the tv i watched 23:35:04 he hadn't actually "finished" the vault, just made it to the loot with no monsters in sight 23:36:14 |amethyst: http://malloys.org/~akm/BZZZ-rescued.cs contains a modified save file that seems reasonably equitable 23:36:42 i can write up a response for mantis later 23:38:30 amalloy: yeah it has some very convenient shorthands, and los with some positioning of the player a bit carefully would have worked probably 23:38:37 not to say that fixing &S wouldn't be nice 23:38:39 I've not used that 23:38:53 of if I have, I forget what it does 23:39:07 i'll never know 23:40:08 <|amethyst> amalloy: okay, dropped into place 23:40:31 Icon for silenced monsters 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11238 by Ultraviolent4 23:41:01 <|amethyst> amalloy: it does have "Entered wizard mode" in the notes, but that's no big deal 23:41:21 amalloy's machinations have tainted that game forever! 23:42:01 ooh, they can remove the notes section from their morgue dump! 23:42:05 cover up the evidence 23:47:24 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-312-gbc67419: Don't enable all trainable skills for non-Gnolls in transfered saves 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc67419b0d85 23:47:24 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-313-g8d4826a: Fix training restrictions in skill menus and messages for Gnolls (eb) 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8d4826aef3c7 23:47:24 03gammafunk02 07* 0.21-a0-314-gb3271ec: Improve shield offsets for the minotaur monster tile 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3271ec2de86 23:54:40 I can fix this crash but something's fairly weird in skill math 23:54:55 no idea at this point whether it's a problem I introduced or whether it was already there