00:24:30 -!- mikee__ is now known as mikee_ 00:54:21 hellmonk: how about showing exact piety cost for abilities 00:54:27 hellmonk: and removing the piety cost randomisation 00:54:35 yeah, seems legit 00:54:42 i'll send a pr 00:54:54 btw do you want to close any of my open ones as wontfix? idm if you do that 00:55:32 nah, I will get to them eventually 00:55:45 all g 00:55:54 just need to find some time for making a download for people, then I will merge a bunch of stuff 00:57:16 a lot of abilities cost half piety on average now, eg imprison costs 3.5 piety on average. do you prefer if I round the costs up or down? 00:57:38 weird 00:57:47 the formula is (piety_cost + 1) / 2 + 1 00:57:54 and then random2() that 00:58:11 I guess it would be ideal to do case by case but follow your own judgment, I can always change them later 00:58:17 alright 01:25:24 !tel hellmonk I think casual should be +50% xp/sp not +100% 01:53:42 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 02:20:58 !tell hellmonk chequers thinks casual should be +50% xp/sp not +100% 02:20:58 nikheizen: OK, I'll let hellmonk know. 02:45:22 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-278-ga722497 03:03:16 oops ta 03:11:41 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-278-ga722497 (34) 05:44:27 hi there, how can I install a crawl.akrasiac.org like server ? 05:44:50 I would like to train some bots to finish the game, but I don't want to "attack" this server too much 05:45:11 so if I can have my own server, bots could play without annoying anyone ;o) 06:26:08 amalloy_: heh, that pub key issue was a local one... messed up my gitlite - and git.develz.org wouldn't accept the push :-$ 06:26:24 sorry, not amalloy_ 06:26:30 |amethyst: heh, that pub key issue was a local one... messed up my gitlite - and git.develz.org wouldn't accept the push :-$ 06:28:56 Mindiell: there is a github repository for that 06:30:32 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-278-ga722497 (34) 06:30:42 one of those, Mindiell: 06:30:43 https://github.com/neilmoore/dgamelaunch-config 06:30:49 https://github.com/crawl/dgamelaunch 06:31:08 i think the first one 06:51:28 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:server:setting_up_dgamelaunch_and_webtiles 06:51:40 Mindiell, ^ 06:53:42 although if you don't care about supporting something that behaves 100% like a public server, it's sufficient to build crawl for webtiles and run the server manually (see INSTALL.txt for details) 06:54:37 (currently only works on linux and possibly OS X) 08:44:04 SpartanLlama (L16 TrNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 115: ZotDef: monster oklob plant failed to pathfind to (39,43) (the Orb) (Zot (ZotDef)) 08:53:08 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 08:53:44 Mindiell: you'd almost certainly want to do bot development on a local build, getting a server up is a huge headache 08:53:56 !crashlog sprint 08:53:58 No milestones for sprint (crash). 08:54:05 oh zotdef 08:57:29 don't even bother 08:58:20 should really reconfigure the bot to not report zotdef crashes 09:14:39 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 09:22:30 <|amethyst> and old versions in general 10:18:11 -!- yeeve_ is now known as yeeve 12:18:36 hmm that's probably a good idea 12:20:14 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 13:04:39 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-278-ga722497 (34) 14:01:06 thx geekosaur Napkin and advil ;o) 14:01:10 I'll give it a try ;o) 15:39:16 !tell Lasty You still use msys2/windows when editing crawl code, right? If so, which IDE/Editor do you use? 15:39:17 gammafunk: OK, I'll let lasty know. 15:41:06 o ised to use vim 15:41:15 wow how did that come out like that 15:41:19 i used to use vim 15:41:29 what do you use now? 15:44:06 dgl question ... sometime early this afternoon webtiles simply stopped working on me. i looked at webtiles.log but didn't notice anything glaring. doesn't seem to be a firewall issue ... i've restarted the webtiles service and rebooted the server to no avail. any thoughts on how else i could troubleshoot it? 15:44:27 well, i mean that i haven't done anything with the code in a while 15:44:27 that's why i used past tense 15:44:27 -!- espaid is now known as espais 15:45:25 espais: can you be more specific than "stopped working"? 15:45:33 Did it not respond on the webtiles port? 15:47:40 yea, so doesn't respond to the webtiles port i have setup (8000) 15:47:40 espais: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:47:43 apache is running fine 15:47:45 !messages 15:47:46 (1/1) gammafunk said (1d 2h 3m 39s ago): That should hopefully do it for fixing drac hat tiles everywhere, thanks! 15:48:04 port just doesn't respond 15:48:21 espais: try connecting locally from the server itself 15:48:38 does webtiles support lynx? 15:48:45 the connection was refused that way 15:48:47 no, you can just use telnet 15:49:25 if connection is refused locally on port 8000, sounds like webtiles is somehow not listening on that port 15:49:57 conn refused 15:51:20 if you have netstat you can do something like `sudo netstat -tulpn` 15:51:28 see which processes are listening to 8000 15:51:37 I would verify that your webtiles config hasn't changed somehow 15:51:47 e.g. to not have the correct port listed 15:52:01 hmm, def no webtiles in that list 15:52:05 service is running though 15:52:25 it would show up as 'python' 15:52:33 yeah, look for the port itself 15:52:42 is anything listening on 8000? 15:52:47 nope 15:52:52 config.py shows port 8000 15:53:06 so your webtiles is not actually listening to the port 15:53:12 hmm, apache is configured ok 15:53:14 yea 15:53:25 apache won't have anything to do with the webtiles port 15:53:45 ok weird 15:53:54 so i redid dgl publish --confirm then restarted webtiles 15:53:55 works now 15:54:04 right, you had some stale config probably 15:54:16 the config you were looking at was the template 15:54:24 you wanted to verify the 'published' one that's actually used 15:54:53 ah, i see 15:54:53 or at least I assume you were looking at the template 15:54:59 was looking at the dgamelaunch-config files 15:55:16 config.py / dgamelaunch.conf / dgl-manage.conf 15:55:30 sure, from the template and your config data a final file gets created and put into the chroot 15:55:48 so if anything seems weird about the running webtiles, always check the one in the chroot 15:55:59 as that's what webtiles is actually using, not the template 15:56:37 I forget the exact path, but if you're looking at the webtiles.log I think it's maybe in that dir or a level up? 15:58:48 yea i checked out that log 15:58:56 so what would cause a config file to get stale? 15:59:00 nothing changed about my infrastructure... 16:27:12 gammafunk: also, thanks for tidying up that hat fix :) 16:27:19 np 16:27:28 I'll do anything to get easy commits 16:28:00 if I can somehow catch up to |amethyst's commit count, maybe I can get hired as a professor somewhere 16:28:23 hm, well we have 3 open reqs at my university ;) 16:28:40 Will they accept a resume of "Has a bunch of crawl commits"? 16:28:47 definitely 16:36:00 oh one thing i was going to ask, was the hat change just local tiles or also webtils? 16:36:38 sorry? 16:36:48 Are you asking if my follow-up commit affected only webtiles? 16:37:08 That affected the save browser and any other menu that rendered the player doll 16:37:25 There is duplicated code for ordering the doll parts that we need to de-duplicate 16:37:44 said de-duplication would have made your tile fix work everywhere if it had been in place 16:37:51 ah 16:37:57 so that is still to be resolved hten 16:38:03 since there'd be only one place where doll part ordering is defined 16:38:11 i got pulled away when you and |amethyst were discussing the duplication yesterday 16:38:45 yeah, if you look at the diff, you can see I'm merely taking your change and applying it to the exact same kind of array for other places where doll data is packed 16:41:50 ah, tileweb.cc 16:41:56 -!- espais_ is now known as espais 18:01:54 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-278-ga722497 (34) 18:51:23 Lasty: I sent you a !tell asking about how you edit source code in windows 18:51:55 I realize you may not check messages a lot so ping in case of that 18:55:15 gammafunk: yooooo 18:55:15 Lasty: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:55:19 hey look, a message 18:55:29 I use sublime text 3 18:55:43 which, ya know, is not exactly an IDE 18:55:46 but is still pretty cool 19:06:18 gammafunk: have your questions been answered sufficiently? 19:14:40 Lasty: yes, thanks; you edit in sublime text and then compile in msys2? 19:15:12 yep 19:16:41 thx 19:18:49 I assume this is part of your elaborate plan to recreate my life down to its last detail for the Smithsonian? 19:21:07 yes 19:21:53 In my forthcoming exhibit 'Criminal Developers Who Violated the Berlin Interpretation: A Historical Perspective' 19:22:51 hong, the cwz admin, randomly emailed me asking about how we do dev on windows 19:24:13 gammafunk: call me criminal all you want, I'm never removing amulets of harm 19:25:18 side note, the lack of monster spawns makes the need for a real clock seem more pressing. I may even get off my butt and try making the DOOM CLOCK 19:26:49 Lasty: Well, I think monster spawns really have a rather small impact on the game 19:27:10 btw, we sketched out an idea for a forward progress thing 19:27:27 that would be 'smooth' and non-invasive, and probably would generally work better than trying to make spawns 19:27:40 I'll write out the idea here and you can look/respond when you have time 19:28:04 The basic idea is that you continuously incur "xp debt" as you act, very much like how your piety constantly decays 19:28:20 oo 19:28:24 innnnteresting 19:28:26 tell me more 19:28:30 But this would happen universally, regardless of species and not dependent on your god (piety decay would still exist normally) 19:28:53 This debt would have to be repayed before you could apply XP to gaining XL/skills 19:29:01 If enough incurred, you could even lose a level (that part is optional) 19:29:26 e.g. if you got close to losing a level, you'd have a status light warning of this (kind of how Fainting is for hunger) 19:29:50 So the benefits is that it works for curbing excessive time, you don't really notice it in normal play, and it has minimal weird side-effects 19:29:59 like trying to apply drain or trying to send monsters after the player would 19:31:17 And if this were implemented, we'd remove food (but that also has various other smaller balance implications/decisions) 19:31:30 (such as spell hunger, berserk, etc) 19:32:57 ah, hmm 19:33:22 Would there be any effort made to prevent this from being excessive during autotravel/autoexplore? 19:33:44 Well, do you feel piety decay is excessive during those things? 19:34:06 Certainly you save piety if you move optimally 19:34:06 and yeah it would also apply here 19:34:22 How much you get per action is a value we could control, but I think with the right value you'd not really notice 19:36:18 I generally do feel that piety decay is noticeable during the pre-****** part of the game. For characters where it makes sense, I will often try to minimize downtime until then 19:36:37 but otherwise piety gain is so fast it barely matters 19:39:19 Yeah, it's certainly something you can notice on characters that have to rest a lot 19:40:00 But I think overall this would not be so much that you'd feel a need to not autoexplore 19:40:23 It was an idea that elliptic, mikee, I and someone else in ##crawl discussed 19:40:31 Best overall idea for food removal I've heard so far 19:41:10 Fighting no-xp summons is really not too much fun, so I like this one a lot more 19:53:07 They should be no fun! They should be real jerks. 19:54:21 The game should be fun, Lasty 19:54:27 crawl is a fun game. 19:55:00 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 19:55:39 gammafunk: sure, but being chased off the level by an ever-growing army of guys you'd rather not fight seems decent 19:57:17 Lasty: Level monsters and monsters in vaults exist for that reasons 19:57:42 Those also reward you if you manage to defeat them 19:57:53 Only in Wucad Mu's wizlab are they "ever-growing" 19:58:09 Well what is so special about "ever growing"? 19:58:25 growing isn't the point, the point is that you have monsters that are hard to defeat 19:58:27 it means there's real pressure to leave 19:58:48 Right, but if the level itself simply generates these monsters, then the objective is achieved 19:59:58 But if the level itself generates monsters scary enough to scare people into going down, wouldn't that just give more xp/rewards to those chars that can actually take them? Or is that a goal? 20:00:25 Sure, said players would have to go to a sufficiently deep enough level to be scared off 20:00:37 Other players get scared off at shallower levels 20:01:03 I mean, it really depends on what you want something like no-xp spawns (or a doom clock) to achieve 20:02:52 If it's trying to push players to dive deeper faster, there are ways of doing that don't involve players having to come up and fight formerly difficult and now-popcorn monsters 20:03:41 If it's more about making a level harder as you clear it normally, I'd imagine that simply making the level spawns more numerouse/more difficult would be the way to go 20:05:24 Or if it's something about luring tactics that you want to penalize, that's a bit harder to address with just level monsters or something like xp-debt 20:05:35 since said tactics happen over a pretty short number of turns 20:06:18 I guess that might be an area where something happening 'dynamically' that makes your life harder could be more interesting, but of course those effects are tricky to get right 20:13:04 gammafunk: that's a good point: what are we aiming for? I think some of the goals we're aiming to address at a macro level are: 1) cut popcorn fights and irritation while backtracking; 2) push players to continue deeper rather than killing time; 3) counterbalance the strength of luring somewhat. 20:13:28 Oh, and arguably 4) prevent XP scumming by sticking around levels 20:14:38 Yeah, whether 4 is solved depends on whether you think a player killing all monsters on the level is "scumming" 20:14:41 The current solution does well for 1) and 4) at the cost of weakening 2) and slightly 3). Adding the XP penalty helps bring 2) and 3) back while also requiring a bit of a balancing act to avoid making our ease-of-use features bad 20:15:12 gammafunk: well, I was thinking of killing old-school post-level-gen monsters as scumming 20:15:15 yeah 20:15:18 I wouldn't count "clearing a level" to be scumming 20:16:30 I'd be curious to see how the XP deficit works out, but I think finding a good inflection point on it seems tricky. It's sufficiently non-visible that it might be ineffective at provoking players to move on, also. 20:17:20 How is (2) actually defined? 20:17:40 If it's not clearing a level normally of monsters, I'm not sure what the player can actually do to kill time 20:17:57 Unless you mean something about resting/stair-dancing, but that seems more (3) 20:19:02 wrt difficult, we're not seeing any increase in winrate after spawn removal (and extra level gen monsters + some generating awake), and qw's winrate has dipped a bit 20:19:09 *difficulty 20:19:26 gammafunk: I suppose 2) is mostly about players killing time in non-abusive ways (sorting all items on the level, etc.) while 3) is a range of mildly to extremely abusive stuff that includes light luring through infinite staircase camping 20:21:03 yeah, I admit that the xp debt doesn't do anything about the combat dynamics that might be considered bad in this game; it is simply about addressing excessive amount of (2) 20:21:10 it's a replacement for food, basically, that's all 20:21:25 it does address some of 3 in that now you have an additional 'decay system' to worry about on top of piety decay 20:21:31 yeah 20:21:32 food was effectively no penalty at all 20:21:35 yeah 20:21:39 this would indeed impact your game 20:22:02 It's worth thinking about how to communicate it well to the player 20:22:26 hrm, with piety decay you see stars falling away 20:22:49 I suppose you could get a message, perhaps a more gradual status light 20:23:01 yeah, something like that. 20:32:45 now that monsters don't respawn, it's not really an issue if players spend time on empty levels, is it 20:35:33 well food still exists 20:41:06 yeah exactly 20:41:40 this is a discussion about a system where food wouldn't be a thing 20:53:58 even if there's no penalty for hanging around on an empty floor, is it a problem? 20:54:07 there's no benefit from doing so, not even a hypothetically optimal one 20:55:03 it's not necessarilly hanging out on empty floor 20:55:12 it's a problem if you hang out on a non-empty floor 20:55:19 camp on stairs, shouting 20:55:25 tediously luring things in etc 20:55:44 a continuous penalty on wasting time helps the design of the game overall 20:55:54 provided that it's not more invasive than the problem it solves 20:56:01 yep I think all of those are problems. But I think there are solutions which will fix hanging out on occupied floors which won't affect hanging out on unoccupied floors, and they're ideas worth considering 20:56:03 but it's the same concept as piety decay 20:56:39 Well I doubt you have a solution that allows people to hang out forever on unoccupied floors 20:56:55 since piety decay is going to be a problem for those people in most cases 20:57:44 this proposed solution would solve the case when players don't have a god and would probably be a nice additional pently on the player taking too much time in general 20:57:45 I'm not saying "it should be a design goal to allow infinite loitering". Just that I don't think it's an issue if you can do something boring that provides no benefit 20:58:15 *penalty 20:58:29 I don't know why infinite loitering is suddenly a primary consideration 20:58:53 we have 1) piety decay and 2) either food or something like no food + xp debt 20:59:15 Those are mainly about addressing spending inordinate time on a level with monsters 20:59:41 They also happen to work to prevent someone from spending infinitely long messing around on a cleared level 20:59:48 which seems fine, so there's really no problem 21:00:47 you could certainly replace no food + xp debt with no food + somethign like Lasty's doom clock 21:01:15 but in general those things are about addressing what a player does on a level where it's beneficial to the player and tedious 21:01:41 like camping stairs until monsters wander in etc 21:09:28 yeah, that's the bigger concern 21:13:14 hellmonk: there's your ability fixed cost commit 21:13:16 ty 21:13:29 I'll try and do some work this weekend while I contemplate quitting my job 21:15:32 :O 21:16:28 what are your qualifications, we may have an opening 21:16:37 I'm tired of being Lasty's intern 21:16:58 it's ridiculous, I helped hire him, and somehow I became his intern!!! 21:20:15 1 year game design experience, 3 years toxicology lab experience, 2 years pharmaceuticals lab experience, 12 years depression 21:20:31 i can use microsoft office if you need me to do that 21:21:07 toxicology lab experience will be useful for redesigning swamp 21:21:33 put in some heroin addicts imo 21:27:09 gammafunk: yeah, that was a huge coup for me 21:27:28 previously, I had so little coffee. Now I have so much! It's time we thought about giving you a second duty. 21:27:51 Lasty: I used the time waiting in line at starbucks to getch your order to plot your completely and total demise 21:27:54 *complete 21:28:01 getch 21:28:10 ok, maybe you got the top job because you can spell and I can't 21:28:15 gammafunk: well, sure, that's how business works 21:29:21 hellmonk: now I udnerstand where your mutagenic crabs came from 21:29:38 yeah he's copying my ideas left and right 21:29:52 wasn't your idea the crab rule 21:29:55 the tried and true dev team solution 21:30:09 anyway, up the crabs 21:30:12 down with draconians 21:31:50 the mutagenic crabs were designed to cause my demise? 21:32:17 speaking of stealing things from hellmonk that he stole from me, blowguns. Should we remove them and just do darts? 21:32:28 imo yes 21:33:03 seems reasonable 21:33:19 no change to needle traps really needed other than the rename 21:34:31 you will get a lot of people crawling out of the woodwork to mourn the loss of needlestabbing though, get ready for the 5 page forum threads 21:34:59 elliptic called needles a design failure the other day 21:35:07 brutal 21:35:08 so if you want to get the conspiracy rolling you could mention that 21:35:44 I think shortly after he and I were talking about ogres and he mentioned how their other melee apts could use adjusting and did it 21:35:57 someone was out there spreading a conspiracy that he and I had some kind of "ogre beef" 21:36:11 no, that's a vault :p 21:36:22 ogre beef? Isn't it more like ogre bread 21:36:24 I mean, he's not wrong 21:36:45 ogre pizza 21:42:43 -!- cojito is now known as pizzy 21:43:02 -!- pizzy is now known as cojito 21:55:38 Lasty: KoBe beef I could see paying top dollar for, but Ogre beef? You couldn't give it away. 21:57:13 Those KoBes always getting massages. . . 21:57:19 but they can't be grass-fed 22:01:28 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 22:08:52 needlestabbing was removed years ago tho 22:08:54 wasnt it 22:14:34 You'll probably still get threads about it. 22:16:36 nope, needlestabbing exists 22:16:46 well, sorry 22:17:04 the stabbing effect from needles doesn't, but you can still use needles to stab 22:17:10 what was that effect even? 22:20:23 if you shot a needle at an unaware monster it magnified the effects of the needle? 22:21:03 right, I vaguely recall something like that 22:21:09 that's gone and that was needlestabbing 22:21:16 something like that yeah 22:21:16 I guess what alex said is right though, there's not any loss of needlestabbing to mourne 22:21:20 hellmonk: ^ 22:21:31 at some point needlestabbing w/ curare did massive damage 22:21:32 You'll probably still get threads about it. 22:21:38 but I'm sure people will mourn it since they cant have *enchanted* *blowguns* 22:21:50 *sob* 22:21:56 if you do lasty's needle type consolidations then there will be some needlestabbing losses 22:22:16 stabbing AFTER needling someone with conf/para then 22:22:28 but I guess if you don't do that then you will just get the endless reeeeeeees of dirty simulationists 22:22:32 needlestabbing, truly a word of diverse usage 22:23:17 I needlestabbed an orb of fire with skullcrusher the other day 22:23:20 you should have seen it 22:23:59 I'll have to go needlestab that replay 22:24:26 bout to needlestab this conversation 22:25:02 "needlestabbing" didn't actually refer to the thing with needles vs unaware monster, that was completely separate 22:25:02 elliptic: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 22:26:16 added at a different time I think, removed now, etc 22:29:36 %git a0c81e59f 22:29:36 07due02 * 0.6.0-a1-1972-ga0c81e5: New needle brands! Sleep, paralysis, rage, confusion, sickness, slowing. 10(8 years ago, 6 files, 184+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0c81e59f032 22:30:16 is what was traditionally meant by needlestabbing 22:31:06 %git 0ae9f4fba 22:31:06 07Grunt02 * 0.15-a0-284-g0ae9f4f: Let stabbing with blowgun attacks extend effect duration (elliptic). 10(3 years, 5 months ago, 11 files, 128+ 49-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0ae9f4fba60e 22:31:39 I don't actually remember suggesting this but I guess it didn't last that long 22:31:46 %git f6f3a78eb 22:31:46 07MarvinPA02 * 0.18-a0-1422-gf6f3a78: Remove ranged (blowgun) stabs 10(1 year, 7 months ago, 1 file, 8+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f6f3a78eb2fd 22:33:06 anyway the 0.6 commit introducing the new needle brands was meant to encourage/buff non-enchanter stabbers 22:33:42 with new build ideas like KoBe training throwing and stabbing high and getting needle gifts from trog 22:33:55 but it didn't really work IMO 22:34:51 haha 22:34:56 i like how excited the commit is 22:35:01 new needle brands! 22:35:02 woot! 23:07:30 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 23:53:56 i like curare as a concept 23:54:27 or i like the idea of needles that massively debilitate a monster without doing direct damage 23:54:38 curare might be better as slow + silence 23:55:33 I actually did "needlestab" as a halfling one time. 23:55:45 Ha^Trog 23:55:58 But I think I then switched to TSO for extended.