00:10:37 <ProzacElf> i always thought crawl was more like a rube goldberg machine
00:11:45 <hellmonk> hellcrawl code is exactly the same except there's only one gear and it's covered in poop
00:13:19 <ProzacElf> mmm
00:47:02 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
00:50:08 <alexjurkiewicz> crawl code is like one of those old timey "games" where you put the marble in a hole at the top and as it goes down the structure weird stuff happens
00:52:10 <alexjurkiewicz> like a door opens and you didn't realise it a was a door but it's open and there's a cuckoo noise but a cuckoo doesn't come out it's a man who is chopping the head of another man and before you really process this the door closes and marble keeps rolling
01:09:59 -!- Telnaior_ is now known as Telnaior
01:12:53 * geekosaur puts on "Small Blue Thing"
01:21:01 -!- Telnaior_ is now known as Telnaior
02:13:33 <johnstein> yay! got the shafted monster to regen HP and time out enchantments!
02:14:03 <johnstein> (mainly thanks to amalloy's fix on placing followers). I'll sleep soundly tonight for the first time all week. SAD
02:49:12 <johnstein> %git :/[Ss]ave [Cc]ompat
02:49:12 <Cheibriados> 07gammafunk02 * 0.21-a0-218-g8aba26b: Don't track Orb spawns as generated monsters in xp_by_level (elliptic) 10(2 days ago, 7 files, 31+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8aba26b1e211
02:54:33 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-221-gfe971b9
03:04:13 <nikheizen> nice trump tweet
03:34:47 <johnstein> ??logs
03:34:48 <Sequell> logs ~ log ~ morgue[1/1]: Use the !log command to get the morgue for your last game on any server. (It will be autodetected.)
03:34:55 <johnstein> !topic
03:35:13 <johnstein> what's the link to the chat logs?
03:36:02 <|amethyst> /topic
03:36:08 <|amethyst> http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/
03:36:08 <johnstein> oh strange. in hexchat, the url isn't there. just says: Crawl Development | Logs: ? | but the tooltip shows it
03:36:14 <|amethyst> huh
03:36:21 <johnstein> !blame hexchat
03:36:21 <Sequell> I pronounce hexchat... Guilty!
03:36:29 <johnstein> ty
03:37:46 <johnstein> need to re-read your notes on save compatibility (I read the doc in develop/, and I get the general idea, but I'm sure it will take a couple tries)
03:51:41 <geekosaur> what version of hexchat? the url shows up fine here
03:52:46 <johnstein> 2.10.2
03:52:51 <johnstein> probably old
03:53:12 <johnstein> but the url usually shows up here OK.
03:53:35 <geekosaur> actually I think that's current. mine is 2.9.6
03:53:49 <geekosaur> although now I wonder if you tried to copy it at some point and fumbled
03:54:22 <johnstein> oh. looks like that was it
03:54:24 <geekosaur> in which case it's showing an edited one that it will just keep showing; if you hit return it will likely fail to set it as /topic due to permissions, and keep showing the edited one instead of the correct one
03:54:28 <johnstein> I didn't realize I could try to edit it
03:54:33 <geekosaur> (with no indication of this)
03:56:23 <johnstein> hey, with a restart it's back to normal
03:56:35 <johnstein> also I'm at 2.12.4
03:57:22 <johnstein> neat, I think I managed to properly marshall and unmarshall my changes
04:03:34 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/601 * 0.21-a0-231-g150e272: Unflag placed lost_ones as just_summoned 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/150e2720eb33
04:03:34 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/601 * 0.21-a0-232-g6dcafcc: Handle basic saving/loading for a new monster variable 10(28 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6dcafccdc8da
07:36:54 -!- syraine_ is now known as syraine
08:24:19 <gammafunk> !lg * xpinfo won
08:24:20 <Sequell> 21. motkurip the Hoplite (L25 MiWn of Uskayaw), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2017-08-25 11:01:20, with 1932729 points after 51297 turns and 2:24:57.
08:24:23 <gammafunk> !lg * xpinfo won -log
08:24:25 <Sequell> 21. motkurip, XL25 MiWn, T:51297: http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/motkurip/morgue-motkurip-20170825-110120.txt
08:25:01 <gammafunk> @?minotaur
08:25:01 <Gretell> minotaur (04H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 54-84 | AC/EV: 5/7 04(headbutt: d20-1) | Dam: 35, 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 1091 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
08:26:06 <gammafunk> !apt xp
08:26:06 <Sequell> Could not understand "xp"
08:26:10 <gammafunk> !apt exp
08:26:11 <Sequell> Exp: Ko: 1!, Fo: 1!, Ha: 1!, Hu: 1!, HE: N/A, HO: 0, VS: 0, Ba: 0, Mf: 0, Op: 0, Gn: 0, Na: 0, Gr: 0, Te: 0, Gh: 0, Og: 0, DE: -1, Ds: -1, Mi: -1, Vp: -1, DD: -1, Tr: -1, Fe: -1, Mu: -1, Sp: -1, Dr: -1, Ce: -1, Dg: -2*
08:26:53 <gammafunk> wonder why they got 1144 from the lab when the only thing they killed there was the minotaur
08:27:23 <gammafunk> !lg * xpinfo won -2
08:27:24 <Sequell> 20/21. Blomdor the Conqueror (L27 BaHu of Okawaru), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2017-08-25 06:46:48, with 1929838 points after 61968 turns and 2:27:59.
08:27:29 <gammafunk> !lg * xpinfo won -2 -log
08:27:30 <Sequell> 20/21. Blomdor, XL27 BaHu, T:61968: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Blomdor/morgue-Blomdor-20170825-064648.txt
08:33:51 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please.
08:33:53 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic
08:37:29 <elliptic> gammafunk: isn't 1144 about right for a minotaur?
08:37:46 <gammafunk> it says from monster it's 1091
08:37:57 <elliptic> that's probably an average?
08:38:07 <gammafunk> I thought their XP is fixed?
08:38:14 <elliptic> or did we change xp to be fixed, I don't know
08:38:20 <gammafunk> Wasn't that changed at some point, yeah
08:38:40 <gammafunk> maybe it wasn't, would explain the discrepancy
08:38:42 <elliptic> anyway it's also possible that monster is wrong for some reason
08:39:05 <gammafunk> sure, but it's also possible that my code is wrong, it's been wrong in the past :)
08:39:16 <gammafunk> I just need to look into that, I guess
08:57:07 <advil> !lg
08:57:19 <advil> something is missing here
08:57:54 <gammafunk> there was a netsplit earlier
08:58:01 <advil> ah
08:58:11 <gammafunk> not sure what "K-lined" means
08:58:26 <advil> heh
08:58:36 <advil> guess I have my znc set up not to show join/part messages
09:40:23 <gammafunk> that message earlier implies that snark and sequell got temp banned
09:40:34 <gammafunk> hopefully that's not going to last...
09:42:12 <Cheibriados> Ghoul regen blocked, reason unknown (unseen monster?) 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11199 by Shtopit
09:52:37 <advil> "snark and sequell got temp banned" oh missed that, thought you were making a joke about k-lining
09:52:59 <advil> uh, that seems problematic
09:53:38 <advil> gammafunk: on r/dcss is there any policy against self-promotion?  I couldn't find one, so I was assuming not
09:59:08 <gammafunk> advil: I think there's a little rule-faq thing on the side
09:59:29 <gammafunk> ...maybe not
10:00:18 <gammafunk> It's a legit question about whether or not we want to see a yt vid maker just posting YAVP (watch my videos)
10:00:54 <advil> yeah...I approved it but have no strong feelings about someone undoing that
10:08:15 <advil> r/roguelikes just says, "Limit (self-)promotional material, especially when not relating to traditional roguelikes. Video reviews/plays of "roguelikelikes" will be removed."
10:44:40 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/601 * 0.21-a0-233-g9df0a6d: Add Save-Compat for follower transit_start_time 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9df0a6d7bccb
10:46:04 <johnstein> maybe I should have added quotes: "Save-Compat?" since this is my first time trying to do that. I followed the recent XP_TIMER examples, but not sure if that was a good example. I get the behavior I was expecting in my tests though.
10:48:40 <gammafunk> uh oh
10:48:59 <gammafunk> er
10:49:20 <gammafunk> johnstein: I think you forgot to add some code in that commit
10:49:27 <gammafunk> did you stage all the changes you wanted?
10:49:55 <gammafunk> all that commit has is adding an enum value
10:51:12 <advil> shouldn't the unmarshall be contingent on the minor tag?
10:51:25 <advil> you will get corruption on load of old saves otherwise
10:51:39 <gammafunk> right, this commit does nothing but add an enum value
10:51:51 <advil> yeah, the previous one changed tags.cc
10:51:58 <advil> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/601/commits/6dcafccdc8dafd3ef34a507acf58d5ecc5329a7f
10:52:26 <gammafunk> yeah, looks like johnstein doesn't quite understand how save compat works yet
10:53:05 <gammafunk> and probably doesn't quite understand how to test save compat if he gots the results he expected :)
10:53:58 <gammafunk> remember that the point of save compat is to deal with saves that were created before the changes you've made, where those changes involve data that goes into a save file
10:54:44 <gammafunk> so those tags are use to determine whether a save was made before the save-related change (before TAG_MINOR_FOLLOWER_TRANSIT_TIME) or afterwards
10:55:23 <johnstein> yea. so I made a save in a recent trunk game. shafted my monster, which didn't add my new transit_start_time variable. then loaded it up into my new version
10:55:59 <advil> johnstein: if you look just at the tags.cc+tag-version.h changes in the following commit you can see an example of how I made a kind of similar change recently [which hopefully is right, changing saving is always a bit nerve-wracking, but I have tested it]
10:56:00 <johnstein> then went to search for it downstairs. if I'd shafted it in my game, only 1 turn should have passed.
10:56:06 <advil> %git e6a8068e981adda9fe5b25f4cec747f7134e8c84
10:56:06 <Cheibriados> 07advil02 * 0.21-a0-185-ge6a8068: Implement training target backend 10(9 days ago, 13 files, 239+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e6a8068e981a
10:56:21 <gammafunk> well you your save was either made incorrectly in terms of the behaviour you expect
10:56:33 <gammafunk> or something somewhere was not tested right
10:56:39 <gammafunk> your current code does not have save compat
10:56:47 <gammafunk> it adds the enum and then does nothing with it
10:56:58 <johnstein> heh
10:57:09 <gammafunk> the whole point of having those enums is so that you can write code that compares a save's version to that enum value
10:57:18 <gammafunk> and condition what to do based on that
10:57:35 <gammafunk> if you don't need a condition like that, you don't need a new enum value for TAG_MINOR_...
10:57:50 <advil> yeah, upgrading a save with that code should fail on a canary I think
10:58:02 <johnstein> oh shoot yea it's completely missing my changes in tags.cc
10:58:11 <johnstein> gitfail
10:58:23 <gammafunk> yeah, I figured you might have had unstaged changes
10:58:32 <gammafunk> it's good to do a little "git checklist" before you push
10:58:35 <gammafunk> e.g.
10:58:46 <gammafunk> 1) git status (do I have everything staged in commits)
10:58:51 <advil> git status
10:58:52 <advil> ^
10:59:02 <advil> I always read over git diff like 5 times, as well
10:59:04 <johnstein> that's the problem with msys2. takes so long to do git commands that I sometimes don't do my obsessive git status ing
10:59:05 <gammafunk> 2) some form of git show or looking at a patch of all your commits
10:59:07 <advil> before committing
10:59:35 <gammafunk> johnstein: well, some people are using git for windows directly for all git related work
10:59:39 <gammafunk> and using msys2 only when compiling
10:59:50 <gammafunk> I agree it being slow is a pain
10:59:55 <johnstein> the real issue is I got the code written at 1:30 this morning but required a full recompile to test. so I got up this morning before work to test it
11:00:04 <johnstein> and wanted to push real quick before leaving
11:00:21 <gammafunk> yeah, imo it's always better to just wait
11:00:21 <gammafunk> and push code when you have time to push code
11:00:21 <johnstein> git-bash is broken on my computer
11:00:33 <gammafunk> it's almost never ever worth it to "just push now" when you're unsure
11:00:42 <johnstein> msys2 may have broken in. reinstalling didn't work and I haven't set aside the time to fix
11:00:44 <gammafunk> in this case it is in a branch so it's not that big a deal
11:01:02 <gammafunk> but if you start pushing to a live repo it becomes a problem
11:01:08 <johnstein> gammafunk: yea the only reason I did it now was because it's just a feature branch
11:01:41 <gammafunk> well you might consider finding a different setup, like maybe a linux vm would actually be more usable?
11:01:48 <johnstein> I actually do have some git discipline. this issue has just been bugging me so I wanted to get some eyes on it.
11:02:01 <gammafunk> msys2 is just so slow; I could see people getting frustrated with that
11:02:22 <gammafunk> not sure what to do about it as I don't have a lot of time to invest in windows dev support (a platform I don't use)
11:02:28 <gammafunk> maybe we need to try harder with MSVC
11:02:34 <johnstein> I need time to set it up. I barely have time to futz with what I'm doing with bug fixing.  but I suppose with all the slow waits for git commands that I might recoup that time fast
11:02:54 <gammafunk> yeah really slow waiting for git commands
11:02:56 <gammafunk> really slow linking
11:03:13 <gammafunk> with as long as those take, this is a significant impedement to getting work done
11:04:10 <gammafunk> better to have a working compilation environment than no environment, of course, but sheesh
11:04:46 <johnstein> it hasn't been a huge issue till I go and change a file that used everywhere.
11:05:15 <gammafunk> yeah that's the problem, you'll frequently have to change a widely used header
11:05:17 <johnstein> I just force pushed it. hopefully no one pulled it in the past few minutes.
11:05:30 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/601 * 0.21-a0-233-g0989daa: Add Save-Compat for follower transit_start_time 10(24 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0989daacd1bf
11:05:50 -!- Mandevil_ is now known as Mandevil
11:05:57 <gammafunk> that looks better
11:06:16 <johnstein> if I stick with this, I'll probably have to do something. I do like using eclipse for the code navigation. if I could easily set something up on cbro, I could do it there, but I could never really get the flow of navigating the code without an IDE
11:06:27 <johnstein> and my experience with ctags and cscope really didn't impress me
11:06:47 <gammafunk> do we care about single-line conditional blocks that are actually two lines (one statement + comment)?
11:07:07 <gammafunk> that seems to be kind of bad from a readability standpoint
11:07:53 <|amethyst> also, I would leave the f.transit_start_time = unmarshallInt(th); outside the #if
11:07:59 <advil> I think that should be braced
11:08:15 <|amethyst> otherwise when we update the major tag that will be removed too
11:08:18 <johnstein> I can add that. unbrace didn't complain and it didn't register
11:08:31 <advil> yeah, if you look at the commit I linked johnstein it has two #ifs for that reason
11:09:18 <advil> I also would have a preference for grouping those two commits together, because without doing that, there's a point in the commit history where save compat is broken
11:09:30 <johnstein> advil: ah ok
11:10:46 <gammafunk> yeah, when the PR gets merged, that can get rebased
11:10:46 <gammafunk> johnstein: which btw for this change you didn't need to force push
11:11:04 <gammafunk> since any commits like that can be rebased by the merger
11:11:16 <gammafunk> and there's probably rebasing that has to happen in that PR already
11:11:41 <gammafunk> it's not a huge deal, but if you can avoid a force push within reason, good to prefer just making a follow-up commit
11:11:48 <johnstein> oh. I was trying to keep them in the same commit. but ok. I'm still trying to find that line. maybe there's no line and I should avoid force pushing  nearly always?
11:11:52 <gammafunk> maybe others feel less strongly about that though
11:12:42 <gammafunk> we've possibly told outside contributers that we don't care much about force push in PRs
11:12:43 <johnstein> yea. I wouldn't have done it if I'd thought anyone had pulled it yet.
11:13:35 <johnstein> at work when I'm doing my own feature branches and I know no one is pulling them I do a ton of rebase -i to keep things tidy
11:13:53 <johnstein> it's new for me to not squash. I usually make a lot of commits
11:15:42 <johnstein> ty for the feedback
11:15:58 <gammafunk> yeah you're probably right that in this case it's fine
11:16:34 <advil> I don't care much about force push in PRs, personally
11:18:18 <advil> also I think the easier a PR is to merge, the quicker it will get merged, so that might be an argument for not leaving all sorts of rebasing to the merger
11:22:55 <gammafunk> yeah that second point I agree with; if you have a PR that's only composed of commits that don't need rebasing
11:23:23 <gammafunk> but probably trying to enforce any discipline on PRs like that isn't feasable, like advil says
11:23:36 <gammafunk> not like we're commiting to the branches that the PR is based on
11:24:42 <johnstein> what do you mean? the branches the PR is based on. you mean in my fork?
11:25:05 <gammafunk> Every PR is based on a branch in another repo, yeah
11:25:48 <johnstein> amalloy actually did just that
11:25:59 <johnstein> in this PR
11:26:01 <gammafunk> That's true, there is a setting for that
11:26:23 <gammafunk> Which if you're using that, you probably don't want to force push
11:26:31 <gammafunk> Did he edit the commits directly in the github UI?
11:27:00 <johnstein> I think so? hr commented on it in here I think
11:27:02 <gammafunk> I guess it wouldn't matter, but I'm not sure if that setting works to allow people to push to your branch
11:37:01 <gammafunk> I sent in email to greensnark about the Freenode k-lining
11:38:23 <johnstein> is there something he can do about it?
11:40:03 <advil> it's presumably a mistake, so he can send an email to freenode support
11:54:18 <gammafunk> We can send Cerebov after 'em
11:54:33 <gammafunk> We can deploy the mountain dwarves
12:54:57 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
12:55:55 <amalloy> gammafunk: no, i pushed from my shell
12:56:34 <amalloy> what that setting does is allow pushes by maintainers of crawl/crawl to the branch on foo/crawl that holds the PR
12:57:13 <amalloy> so i just pushed to git@github.com/jmbjr branchname, whatever it was
12:57:56 <amalloy> advil: anyway there's a "rebase and merge" button in github when you're accepting a PR, so it is quite painless if there are no conflicts
13:04:01 <gammafunk> amalloy: that's pretty cool
13:04:33 <amalloy> yeah
13:04:53 <gammafunk> I take it "rebase and merge" is not an interactive rebase?
13:04:57 <gammafunk> e.g. to allow squashing
13:05:05 <amalloy> there's a "squash and merge" button too
13:05:23 <gammafunk> dang
13:05:23 <amalloy> but if you want to do anything fancier than "just one commit" or "all commits exactly as is"
13:05:24 <amalloy> then you have to do it yourself in the shell
13:06:30 <amalloy> i'm hopeful that this feature will encourage more of the dev team to use PRs. i know people sometimes use branches in crawl/crawl rather than branches in their own fork so that other devs can edit the branch; but now you can do that even from your own fork by making it a PR
13:09:33 <gammafunk> hrm, well nothing wrong with making a branch in crawl/crawl and a PR based on that, no?
13:09:56 <gammafunk> I agree the PR review system is nice for getting commentary compared to simply a branch
13:14:02 <johnstein> when you squash and merge via github what commit message is used? does the committer have to write up a new one? or is it like rebase -i where it lists all the commit messages from all the commits to be squashed and you can pick and choose/delete the ones you want/don't want?
13:16:15 <amalloy> gammafunk: yes, a PR from crawl/crawl to crawl/crawl is also fine except there's more Cheibriados commitspam
13:16:33 <amalloy> johnstein: it defaults to concatting the messages but you can edit
14:02:25 -!- odiv_ is now known as odiv
14:17:31 <johnstein> amalloy: yea I wasn't sure why shafted monsters got the MF_JUST_SUMMONED flag. I will dig into that more since "I don't know" is likely not a great justification. I was probably hoping one of you devs would have happened to know what the intent there was
14:21:50 <|amethyst> MF_JUST_SUMMONED is also used for monsters that take stairs
14:21:53 <|amethyst> /// monster skips next available action
14:21:53 <|amethyst> MF_JUST_SUMMONED      = BIT(1),
14:22:20 <|amethyst> ohh
14:22:45 <|amethyst> yeah, I see, that's a bit of a problem with where MF_JUST_SUMMONED is checked
14:23:36 <|amethyst> really I think _catchup_monster_moves is the only thing that needs to be protected by that continue
14:23:51 <|amethyst> I guess the healing stuff also, but
14:24:45 <|amethyst> it looks like the fact that healing is after the MF_JUST_SUMMONED checks gives stairdancing a benefit we hadn't even considered
14:25:05 <|amethyst> the player heals according to the amount of time they took to cross the stairs (which is a few turns), but monsters who follow you do not
14:25:11 <johnstein> ooh
14:25:22 <|amethyst> so more stairdancing = more healing relative to monsters
14:25:28 <johnstein> that's kinda neat
14:25:48 <geekosaur> heh. I'd wondered about that
14:26:50 <johnstein> does qw use stair dancing pro strats!
14:27:52 <advil> hm wonder why the workman keyboard layout guy closed that PR, we would have merged it
14:28:15 <advil> or at least, I would have
14:30:05 <amalloy> |amethyst: well, the monsters are attacking you while you're not attacking them
14:30:21 <|amethyst> amalloy:  yeah, it's not necessarily optimal
14:30:32 <|amethyst> amalloy:  but it's a benefit I think the player doesn't need to get
14:30:37 <amalloy> yes
14:30:56 <amalloy> i wonder if it was intended to prevent beogh allies from getting heals
14:32:01 <|amethyst> let's see what a series of git blames says
14:32:15 <|amethyst> my guess is that this code is older than beogh
14:33:39 <|amethyst> yes, it's in Initial revision
14:33:57 <advil> ancient secret tech
14:34:23 <geekosaur> "didn't think about it" probably...
14:34:27 <|amethyst> I don't feel like searching through crawl-ancient history right now, but it's at least as old as DCSS, and Beogh is a DCSS innovation
14:34:41 <|amethyst> "didn't know about it" :)
14:39:47 <|amethyst> I think moving the location of that continue; (and the order of the following code) probably should be a different commit, since it has significant (though probably good) side effects
14:40:36 <|amethyst> I'd probably reorder it to the beginning of the PR, but you might have to resolve some merge conflicts if you do
14:41:42 <|amethyst> (to the beginning because its current location prevents the code from your to-be-later commits from working properly, so it's a blocking bug for your code)
14:48:12 <|amethyst> s/merge conflicts/rebase conflicts/ # I suppose, technically
14:48:38 <advil> do any devs use dvorak?
14:49:19 <|amethyst> I prefer Béla Bartók
14:49:35 <advil> well, me too now that you mention it
14:51:07 -!- Tux[Qyou] is now known as ididitagain
14:53:17 -!- ididitagain is now known as Tux[Qyou]
14:56:25 <advil> apparently august dvorak was distantly related to the dvorak you mean
14:57:10 <|amethyst> Also not to be confused with John Dvorak
14:57:44 <advil> who, it turns out, is august dvorak's nephew
14:58:14 <|amethyst> neat
15:00:52 <|amethyst> I had a friend once who insisted on pronouncing the keyboard layout the Czech way (despite August Dvorak using an Anglicised pronunciation).  Except the closes he could get to ř was /ɹʒ/
15:00:56 <|amethyst> s/closes/closest/
15:11:00 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  btw, re the email that many people didn't get: is there a date?  The website says "November 11-12th" but you mentioned it wasn't necessarily updated for this year
15:11:19 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I almost certainly can't go, unless it happens to be over thanksgiving
15:11:33 <amalloy> |amethyst: it is nov 11-12 for this year
15:11:35 <|amethyst> (which doesn't seem likely for a US-located con)
15:11:38 <|amethyst> ah
15:11:59 <amalloy> according to an email i got from their coordinator and also their CFP form
15:12:57 <|amethyst> BTW, as far as the private list goes
15:13:08 <|amethyst> we probably need to get a legit mailing list from a legit provider
15:13:33 <|amethyst> not an /etc/aliases rule on my server at some random hosting provider
15:13:38 <gammafunk> |amethyst: those dates are accurate yeah, just the website hadn't been updated
15:13:49 <gammafunk> yeah, agree re: legit private mailing list
15:14:03 <|amethyst> I guess a web forum would work too
15:14:11 <amalloy> i guess a google group is no good because you want to be able to discuss potential new devs but not let new members see us brutally slamming them before they finally joined?
15:14:46 <|amethyst> I'm of two minds about that
15:14:58 <|amethyst> OT1H it encourages open discussion the current way
15:15:51 <|amethyst> OTOH it is only fair to let people see their "personnel record", not to mention history of other discussions
15:16:29 <amalloy> i would be in favor of a google group just because it's simple and common, even if it's not the best possible implementation of a forum
15:16:36 * geekosaur sends |amethyst a Motie Mediator
15:19:58 <gammafunk> amalloy wants us to use google groups so that his parent company can acquire DCSS just like how Amazon acquired Whole Foods!
15:20:22 <amalloy> bh and i are working our way up to a voting majority on the board of directors
15:20:26 <advil> get shop discounts ingame with the google credit card
15:21:16 <advil> [I'm surprised to see that there isn't a google credit card]
15:21:51 <advil> [though there does appear to be the equivalent of a store card]
15:22:51 <advil> google group seems ok, probably for some of us (me at least) it would be trivial to spin up a mailman list but then you get a single point of failure
15:24:42 <gammafunk> I think the issue with something like mailman is that someone has to host/maintain it
15:25:00 <|amethyst> Hey, if google buys dcss do you think we'll get free hosting on google cloud?
15:25:11 <|amethyst> because that lets the server admins save a bunch of money :)
15:25:27 <gammafunk> And that someone has to have a server that doesn't get blocked by e.g. gmail
15:25:32 <|amethyst> otherwise, I'm going to shop us out to Amazon and Microsoft too
15:25:46 <gammafunk> aww, we might become a windows shop?
15:26:02 <gammafunk> Is that what you really want, |amethyst ?
15:26:02 <|amethyst> nah, they have linux machines in Azure
15:26:23 <|amethyst> they might embrace and extend us even
15:26:34 <gammafunk> You say that know, but just remember my warning when head of IT has you uninstall debian for Windows 12
15:26:39 <|amethyst> free items if you get Crawl from the Windows Store
15:26:46 <gammafunk> s/know/now/
15:30:13 -!- Pete__ is now known as mumraa
15:41:16 <advil> well, if anyone wants secret-list@dcss.xyz ($1!), let me know (but google groups is a better idea)
15:45:52 <gammafunk> advil: are you saying you can host a mailing list?
15:46:17 <gammafunk> I'm not opposed to google groups or anything, if that's what people would prefer
15:47:34 <gammafunk> O
15:47:36 <gammafunk> er
15:48:25 <gammafunk> I'm not addicted, but I'm starting to go through symptoms that resemble withdrawal from not being able to see new vault kills
15:48:35 <advil> I could actually, it's just a few clicks to setup, and dreamhost's mailservers should be fine for something like this, but then it's reliant on me, so I'm not sure that's best
15:48:40 <gammafunk> If sequell stays off freenode I may need an ambulance
15:48:56 <advil> but I did just buy dcss.xyz for a dollar!
15:49:00 <gammafunk> haha
15:49:14 <gammafunk> now the ($1!) makes a lot more sense
15:49:22 <advil> oh haha
15:49:24 <gammafunk> I honestly thought that was some kind of programmer/regex joke
15:49:35 <johnstein> oh.  me too
15:49:39 <|amethyst> I could also point dc-ss.org there (or at least its MX)
15:50:20 <advil> I have poor impulse control in the buy domain tab
15:50:31 <advil> dcss.io is available too, but .io sites are pricier
15:50:54 <advil> (also crawl.fun is available)
15:51:50 <|amethyst> what are they going to do when moons of Jupiter start getting TLDs?
15:52:05 <|amethyst> dcss.io-moon
15:52:05 <gammafunk> crawl.fun would be a contradiction
15:52:08 <|amethyst> dcss.io.jupiter.sol
15:52:22 <gammafunk> well they say that some of the moons of jupiter might harbor intelligent life
15:52:41 <gammafunk> well, more like that they might harbor life, not so much intelligent life
15:52:57 <|amethyst> I think the former is unlikely, since there's no intelligent life elsewhere in the solar system
15:53:10 <|amethyst> certainly not on the third planet
15:53:14 <advil> well, crawl.work is also available. no crawl.life tho.
15:53:35 <|amethyst> is stone.soup available?
15:54:44 <advil> I can't tell if .soup is a real thing or not
15:57:53 <|amethyst> looks like no
15:57:58 <|amethyst> according to dig
15:58:25 <advil> this company says they have it but it doesn't seem to work even on their site http://name.space.xs2.net/register.php
15:59:32 <johnstein> there's ups
15:59:46 <johnstein> stoneso.ups but that's not as cool
15:59:56 <johnstein> and shouldn't be plural
16:01:12 <|amethyst> soup.st.one
16:02:10 <johnstein> same acronym at least
16:07:16 <Yermak> What's happened with sequell?
16:08:03 <johnstein> !blame freenode
16:08:06 <johnstein> rip
16:08:58 <advil> Yermak unclear, but snark/sequell apparently got k-lined during a netsplit?
16:09:22 <gammafunk> yeah, I emailed snark using the email he has for commits
16:09:28 <gammafunk> dunno if he responds to that one though
16:15:33 <johnstein> in case there was any doubt, sequell.log confirms the bannination. every minute
16:22:00 <|amethyst> hm
16:23:22 <amalloy> |amethyst: i suspect that you could run a VM hosting DCSS in the free tier of google cloud, except that the disk usage for ttyrecs is way too high
16:24:03 <johnstein> could you rsync them as soon as the file is closed?
16:24:11 <|amethyst> amalloy:  yeah, you could
16:24:25 <johnstein> or weekly? or would just a few days or hours still be too much?
16:24:45 <|amethyst> IMO mount the ttyrec server with NFS and just store them there directly
16:24:48 <amalloy> i haven't looked into it seriously, johnstein. probably you could. but i want to be careful not to be That Guy saying to use google for everything
16:25:05 <|amethyst> amalloy:  hm, I'm not certain about bandwidth, but probably that too
16:25:54 <|amethyst> (NFS over the internet is maybe not the most secure protocol, so you'd probably want a VPN)
16:26:52 <amalloy> tbh even figuring out what is free is not so easy. can you even run a VM for free at all, or do you have to use GAE? i dunno
16:28:45 <|amethyst> hm, I was thinking you could with amazon and a t2.micro
16:28:54 <|amethyst> but actually you only get 750 free hours a year
16:29:47 <amalloy> ^status
16:29:47 <Rotatell> 38 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=86% (135GB) | RAM usage=31% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 16:29:47 up 175 days, 21:08,  2 users,  load average: 0.82, 0.58, 0.48 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org
16:30:04 <amalloy> is that wall-clock hours or cpu hours? i guess cbro uses about one cpu hour per hour so maybe it doesn't matter
16:30:49 <|amethyst> I think it's instance-hours
16:30:55 <|amethyst> http://docs.aws.amazon.com/awsaccountbilling/latest/aboutv2/free-tier-limits.html
16:32:14 <|amethyst> but note that t2.micro is only 1 GB of RAM
16:32:24 <|amethyst> so you wouldn't be able to support very many users probably
16:35:04 <gammafunk> amalloy: are you sure about that? aws free tier is way far away from being good enough to reasonably host an active server
16:35:23 <gammafunk> also the free tier is only actually free for a year
16:36:03 <gammafunk> I assume they don't give you that much cpu in free tier; it would probably be unplayably slow for more than a couple users
16:39:08 <|amethyst> yeah
16:41:02 <|amethyst> t2 does bursting, but for continual usage it's only about 10% of a CPU
16:41:11 <|amethyst> (6 CPU credits an hour)
16:41:33 <gammafunk> I think I need to move my instance to a reserved one now
16:41:35 <|amethyst> of a 3.3 GHz or slower Xeon
16:42:45 <|amethyst> I do kind of wonder which resource runs out first
16:43:06 <|amethyst> probably would be CPU under those conditions with EBS
16:43:46 <|amethyst> I think on CAO it is mostly disk bandwidth, but that has more CPU and RAM
16:45:08 <Lasty_> Hey folks, what's the name of the symbol we use to draw clouds?
16:45:32 <|amethyst> U+00A8 SECTION SIGN §
16:45:41 <|amethyst> err
16:45:46 <|amethyst> U+00A7 rather
16:46:08 <Lasty_> Cool. According to Wikipedia, it's a "section sign".
16:46:14 <|amethyst> that's what I said
16:46:20 <|amethyst> :)
16:46:22 <Lasty_> oh, haha
16:46:24 <Lasty_> true, you did!
16:46:33 <Lasty_> Thanks very much
17:46:47 <gammafunk> Re sequell, I just got an email from snark
17:46:53 <gammafunk> Looks like my server IP landed on dronebl: http://eu1.dronebl.org/lookup_branded.do?ip=5.9.116.83 so freenode's banned the IP and none of the services running on the server can get on freenode. I'm not sure why exactly, I'll follow-up on the weekend.
18:09:32 <geekosaur> griefers found a new hobby shutting down infobots?
18:10:00 <|amethyst> or aftershocks of freenode accidentally klining everyone last week?
18:12:42 <gammafunk> I don't know how dronebl works
18:12:46 <gammafunk> Or really what it is
18:12:50 <gammafunk> if anyone has context for that
18:13:14 <|amethyst> https://dronebl.org/docs/what
18:18:17 <gammafunk> hrm, wonder how shalott.org got added to that
18:20:48 <geekosaur> just looked at their activity log and shalott has been removed now
18:20:54 <|amethyst> doing a lookup says   Why?  DDoS drone    Remove: listing not active
18:20:55 <|amethyst> yeah
18:20:59 <gammafunk> oh cool
18:27:07 -!- Kalir|3 is now known as Kalir
19:19:19 -!- Guest15882 is now known as bh
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20:43:59 -!- Amnesiac__ is now known as Amnesiac
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