00:18:01 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-184-g9126a74 (34)
00:25:34 -!- n1k is now known as n1
00:41:29 <johnstein> !source player_equip_unrand
00:41:30 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#L938
00:42:47 <neizenel> gammafunk: you wanted to yell?
00:44:01 <gammafunk> neizenel: not seriously, I'm just findally editing your PR
00:44:10 <gammafunk> that arrival vault needed quit a bit of reglyphing
00:44:14 <gammafunk> but it's better now I think
00:44:23 <neizenel> hooray!
00:44:23 <johnstein> there's a note on that function:
00:44:23 <johnstein> / Returns true if the indicated unrandart is equipped
00:44:23 <johnstein> / [ds] There's no equivalent of calc_unid or req_id because as of now, weapons
00:44:23 <johnstein> / and armour type-id on wield/wear.
00:44:25 <gammafunk> I'll hopefully merge it soon
00:44:30 <johnstein> what's the [ds] mean?
00:44:33 <gammafunk> neizenel: also, for the letter altar vaults
00:44:52 <gammafunk> I'm half a mind to not merge them since they're sort of just a weird theme
00:44:55 <johnstein> I was looking at the bug on Robe of the Night not increasing LoS till a turn later
00:44:56 <gammafunk> letter ascii art
00:45:14 <gammafunk> but they are fine as simple random altars otherwise
00:45:20 <gammafunk> just not sure what you were really going for with those
00:45:38 <johnstein> wondering if that's because there's no function to check unrands on unequip. or if the note is saying that you *can't* check them because of some underlying architecture
00:45:54 <johnstein> still looking through the code, but didn't know if that was a no-brainer or something
00:48:03 <neizenel> I was just trying to pick some letters which would provide peaceful nooks for an altar to rest. I'm not very attached to them though.
00:48:23 <gammafunk> well they're alright really
00:48:41 <gammafunk> we don't have a lot of that particular kind of vault, at least
01:10:13 <amalloy> johnstein: it's a note left there by someone named ds. people used to think it was a good idea to have conversations in comments
01:10:42 <johnstein> ah ok
01:10:53 <johnstein> I couldn't reproduce the bug anyway
01:11:05 <johnstein> !bug 11090
01:11:06 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11090
01:23:07 <amalloy> %git 1d0f57cbceb778139ca215cc4fcfd1584951f6dd
01:23:07 <Cheibriados> 07greensnark02 * 1d0f57cbceb7: Merged stone_soup r15:451 into trunk. 10(11 years ago, 180 files, 39016+ 25829-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d0f57cbceb7
01:23:39 <amalloy> hm, that's not the commit i meant, i think
01:24:06 <amalloy> oh, i see. ds is the snark
01:24:52 <amalloy> i didn't notice because i wasn't using mailmap while i was poking around with git log
01:25:39 <amalloy> johnstein: if you're curious, there is the commit which added this comment
01:27:01 <johnstein> oh yea, that makes sense now (ds)
01:28:14 <johnstein> ty
01:38:13 <johnstein> !source _paranoid_option_disable
01:38:17 <Sequell> Can't find _paranoid_option_disable.
01:39:22 <johnstein> can't seem to find any paranoid options to disable
01:56:40 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-184-g9126a74
02:01:34 <|amethyst> %git 0ed415433
02:01:34 <Cheibriados> 07by02 * 0.7.0-a0-229-g0ed4154: Modify handling of weapon swap interrupts. 10(7 years ago, 1 file, 119+ 142-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0ed415433189
02:04:30 <|amethyst> ah, if you discover an invisible monster by conjure flame or fulminant prism (presumably lightning spire too), autopickup should be disabled
02:04:49 <|amethyst> or, rather, the FIXME asks if it should be
02:06:43 <johnstein> |amethyst, oh, is that the paranoid_option_disable?
02:07:01 <|amethyst> that's what it did when it existed
02:07:07 <|amethyst> see the above commit
02:07:13 <|amethyst> (which removed it)
02:07:23 <johnstein> that actually sounds reasonable since MSG_GHOSTLY_OUTLINE clearly spoils the invisibleness of the monster
02:08:09 <johnstein> I was thinking of doing something similar with the traps. some vague message if it's a teleport or shaft trap
02:08:43 <johnstein> but then I didn't know what to do with the other hidden traps where prism is allowed to place on
02:09:29 <johnstein> triggering them almost felt a bit like inviting players to always zap the known trap locations to trigger them remotely
02:54:02 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-184-g9126a74
03:18:10 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-184-g9126a74 (34)
04:04:55 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:37:26 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/594 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/594
04:37:26 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/594 * 0.21-a0-185-g88b6327: Improve F. Prism trap interaction 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 29+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/88b6327310e3
04:37:26 <Cheibriados> 03johnstein02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/594 * 0.21-a0-186-g6166d31: Add fail_check and minor cleanup 10(55 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6166d31620de
05:38:09 <bgiannan> is there any reason why there's always 2 variant of a vault in arrival/simple.des for example ?
05:39:52 <gammafunk> well I'm not seeing that there are always two variants
05:40:18 <gammafunk> but I think it's just people tend to make a vault and then make a variant
05:40:26 <bgiannan> ok
05:42:19 <bgiannan> gammafunk, i suppose i can test a level with wiz mode ?
05:44:29 <gammafunk> yeah, i usually just go to D:1 and use &P to test arrival vaults
05:44:49 <gammafunk> type in a unique substring in your vault name, you don't even have to type the full name
05:45:05 <bgiannan> ok neat
05:45:12 <gammafunk> but yes you should definitely test it by generating your vault in the level to see how it looks, if everything places properly
05:46:48 <bgiannan> gammafunk, is it ok if i create a PR label "don't merge" to get feedbacks as i write vaults ?
05:46:54 <bgiannan> labelled*
05:51:13 <gammafunk> hrm, that's probably fine
05:51:20 <gammafunk> wonder if there's a better way to do that in github, but sure
08:11:19 <Chonchonts> hi
08:37:55 <alexjurkiewicz> !tell hellmonk please make spectral weapon permabuff
08:37:56 <Sequell> alexjurkiewicz: OK, I'll let hellmonk know.
08:44:54 <bgiannan> in des file can i use SUBST to sometimes show an item and sometimes not ?
08:46:13 <bgiannan> nevermind i found how
09:13:08 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/595 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/595
09:13:08 <Cheibriados> 03giann02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/595 * 0.21-a0-185-gadd7901: Several arrival vaults 10(82 minutes ago, 1 file, 77+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/add7901371ed
09:34:55 -!- Amnesiac_ is now known as Amnesiac
09:36:51 <shmup> who runs the tavern? who would you talk to if you wanted to create a conversation about some responsive css for mobile view
09:54:32 <shmup> oh, right. tapatalk.
10:15:56 <gammafunk> neizenel: a couple of issues with random_ring
10:16:11 <gammafunk> the statues you place will have very little room to do work with their summons
10:16:40 <gammafunk> they would work a lot better if you placed them around the corner somewhere central in that two-square width passage
10:17:04 <gammafunk> but you're placing them basically as a choke point so their summons will get stuck a lot
10:17:47 <gammafunk> the other is you add rock tiles randomly into some of the walls, and these are going to be natural places for the player to dig into the vault to get a better choke point
10:18:10 <gammafunk> if you're doing that mostly for decor purposes, it would be better to use only undiggable wall types
10:18:53 <gammafunk> the random wall type look is also something that's mostly seen in the abyss or in vaults that want to have a strong "chaotic" theme
10:19:29 <gammafunk> another way to randomize that looks a bit cleaner is to use a SUBST with the `:` operator that randomly chooses a result, applying it to all glyphs
10:19:52 <gammafunk> so something like SUBST: h : cbv
10:20:01 <gammafunk> all h get replaced with one of c, b, or v
10:20:30 <gammafunk> and you can do this independently for each shell so that wall types are different as you move in
13:04:42 -!- crate_ is now known as crate
13:09:37 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:16:18 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-184-g9126a74 (34)
13:23:13 <Cheibriados> 03amalloy02 07* 0.21-a0-185-g3a6ed1e: Improve notes for finding unrand items (aolowin) 10(23 hours ago, 3 files, 32+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a6ed1e45e5c
14:09:20 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-185-g3a6ed1e (34)
16:30:51 <|amethyst> FR: when the a screen shows you the failure rate, it should also indicate the fail_basis
16:31:02 <|amethyst> "45% (Evocations)", "34% (XL)", etc
16:31:21 <|amethyst> I'll write that up as an implementable if I can get a second :)
16:31:54 <|amethyst> err, someone to second the "motion", not a second of time, ain't nobody got time for that
16:32:46 <|amethyst> I can think of several times I've answered that question on reddit and/or tavern ("what can I do to reduce the failure rate of X"?)
16:36:21 <gammafunk> 66% (Get Good)
16:39:16 <MarvinPA> squeezing "invocations and piety" in there neatly might be awkward, sounds like a good thing to try and communicate better though
16:39:42 <MarvinPA> on the more detailed a? info screen if nothing else, maybe
16:40:01 <gammafunk> MarvinPA: I was thinking of making wands stack so that pickup up a new wand when have one of that type in invo merges the charges into the existing and destroys the new one, but there are issues with identification
16:40:34 <gammafunk> namely do we continue to have ident scrolls do things for wands, since if we do there has to be a way for that to be meaningful
16:41:03 <gammafunk> so if you have thoughts on how to handle that, let me know
16:41:07 <MarvinPA> i think when it's been discussed before the other thing that came up was having to rework recharging
16:41:10 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  "(Inv + Piety)" might fit?  could at least do it if the screen is long enough, and abbrev to (I+P) otherwise
16:41:29 <gammafunk> yeah, recharge scrolls? that's also something to take a look at
16:41:30 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  I agree it should be in ? if it's not already, but experience shows no one looks at ?
16:41:53 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  okay, not "no one", but it's not common
16:42:26 <MarvinPA> yeah
16:43:05 <gammafunk> Didn't mean to interrupt that convo about the display, but I was literally in the middle of sending you a tell about it
16:43:12 <gammafunk> then you had the nerve to just show up!
16:43:46 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  imo identify for wands is still meaningful if you only have to do it once per subtype
16:44:14 <gammafunk> |amethyst: yeah, but I feel it's not very; it does frontload the id game for wands more towards early game
16:44:40 <gammafunk> "not very" isn't quite fair
16:45:03 <gammafunk> it's meaningful, but it makes the use of id on wands feel more vestigal
16:45:12 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  not that my games are usually that long, but usually it's only clouds and scattershot where I bother picking up more than one
16:45:19 <|amethyst> maybe digging sometimes
16:45:25 <gammafunk> that would be a mistake on your part
16:45:34 <gammafunk> you should definitely be using wands more
16:45:39 <|amethyst> not using the wands enough is the mistake :)
16:45:40 <|amethyst> yeah
16:46:16 <|amethyst> maybe overusing identify on other things
16:46:16 <gammafunk> I mean I'm sensitive to the idea of "decision fatigue"
16:46:23 <|amethyst> (so that I overvalue identify relative to recharging)
16:46:37 <gammafunk> and you can criticize the concept of a wand in a game with spells, evocables, god abilities
16:46:56 <|amethyst> could cut off identify frequency at some depth
16:47:03 <|amethyst> (or gradually, whatever)
16:47:07 <gammafunk> but wands are very powerful and not using any but top tier ones tends to get you killed in places like dungeon, lair
16:47:16 <|amethyst> since it is most useful early game
16:47:53 <gammafunk> yeah, certainly reducing identify, reducing (or removing) recharging are all options
16:48:11 <gammafunk> but wand stacking is more about there being less pointless inventory management
16:48:27 <|amethyst> I guess with wand stacking, removing recharging is probably good
16:48:48 <|amethyst> I think we also (still) need to reduce the number of wands
16:48:53 <MarvinPA> i wouldn't mind removing recharging either way, i'd been thinking about that with the previous wand reworks
16:49:12 <|amethyst> (and/or scrolls, and/or potions)
16:49:13 <advil> removing it without stacking seems painful
16:49:24 <advil> w.r.t. inventory pressure
16:49:40 <|amethyst> even with at most one of each wand, I still feel inventory pressure in my games
16:49:53 <|amethyst> we can remove royal jelly and one of the rations, for one thing
16:50:23 <|amethyst> (RIP pun vaults)
16:50:58 <geekosaur> remove royal jelly, rename fruit to royal jelly :p
16:50:59 <|amethyst> (I think we can also merge fruit into normal permafood, but it would take some tuning)
16:51:07 <gammafunk> I can certainly just tentatively remove recharging in my branch
16:51:14 <|amethyst> IMO reduce food down to one type, and make the names purely flavour
16:51:28 <|amethyst> then we could have rambutan, choko, etc. again
16:51:28 <wheals_> and/or texture?
16:51:30 <|amethyst> wheals_:  mouthfeel
16:51:53 <MarvinPA> one of confusion/enslavement/paralysis would probably be a good wand removal target
16:52:01 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  yiss
16:52:11 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  IMO disint too
16:52:12 <MarvinPA> also digging, but that requires going through vaults and making digging not be required any more
16:52:24 <|amethyst> I would not remove digging
16:52:31 <gammafunk> oh, well removing digging is kind of big change
16:52:51 <|amethyst> I think modifying your environment gives the player a feeling of agency
16:53:10 <|amethyst> then again, I guess lots of bad things give the player a feeling of agency
16:54:00 <|amethyst> But to me digging feels like a kind of "tactical" sequence-breaking
16:54:13 <|amethyst> which I think is something we want to encourage, not discourage
16:54:22 <|amethyst> the pattern could be changed to make it less abusable
16:54:29 <|amethyst> eg making it shallower but 3-wide
16:54:33 <gammafunk> I'm not sure which aspect of digging you most don't like, MarvinPA. Is it making killholes?
16:54:35 <|amethyst> or even 2-wide
16:54:39 <MarvinPA> maybe it'd be more reasonable just being a bunch rarer (and also i think changing vaults to never require digging would be good too)
16:55:07 <MarvinPA> would still be good*
16:55:15 <gammafunk> yeah
16:55:15 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  IMO I think it's good if the player can be expected to have found digging (with, say, 60% confidence) before Lab
16:55:27 <gammafunk> why before Lab?
16:55:49 <|amethyst> because it's a way to do the early parts of lab even if you hate mazes
16:56:12 <|amethyst> of course, we could just remove lab
16:56:24 <|amethyst> but I think it's cute so I wouldn't
16:56:44 <|amethyst> (I realise "cute" is faint praise...)
16:57:11 <MarvinPA> i think digging shouldn't really come into it either way in terms of their existence, yeah (and completely anecdotally i think i don't have digging most of the time when i do lab already)
16:57:57 <gammafunk> well, I guess as a sort of compromise
16:58:00 <|amethyst> FR: we add enough fields to milestones that we can query that
16:58:05 <MarvinPA> (but yeah i also think they're cute, although i'm sure if they didn't exist and got suggested now i'd be opposed :P)
16:58:06 <gammafunk> if we remove recharging and make dig wands a bit rarer
16:58:14 <|amethyst> "warning: may contain telemetry"
16:58:23 <gammafunk> that would make dig charges fairly precious
16:58:42 <|amethyst> I wonder if jpeg still has a job where she can't contribute to crawl
16:59:04 <geekosaur> I rarely find a use for dig these days
16:59:22 <gammafunk> well dig is certainly very useful tactically
16:59:34 <gammafunk> you can use it to make fights much easier
16:59:43 <gammafunk> I do that pretty frequently even in lair
16:59:46 <|amethyst> could make it a potion of wall-walking instead
16:59:59 <gammafunk> duration runs out and you die, melded into the rock?
17:00:01 <gammafunk> I like it
17:00:09 <geekosaur> mm, I find I generally try to arrange that I have a corridor handy
17:00:29 <geekosaur> not aways possible but that's what blink/tele are for :)
17:00:29 <|amethyst> would also solve the problems of vaults that can't be crossed with Sac Earth + Sac Artifice
17:00:44 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I'd think you'd get drained, like emergency flight but 10x worse
17:00:50 <gammafunk> well I find plenty of instances where I can use dig
17:00:59 <gammafunk> I don't think the utility of dig is really in question here
17:01:06 <MarvinPA> mm, memories of old passwall
17:01:21 <MarvinPA> "killed by petrification" or whatever the ktyp was
17:01:27 <gammafunk> sounds fun
17:01:30 <geekosaur> figured someone else would be thinking potion of passwall
17:01:52 <MarvinPA> but: mummies with sac earth and sac artifice!
17:01:52 <|amethyst> potion of nome
17:01:54 <MarvinPA> there's always an edge case.....
17:02:30 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  give mummies an ability that does Sacrifice Experience and removes one square of wall
17:02:39 <MarvinPA> heh
17:02:50 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  "Turn To Dust"
17:03:06 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  "floor of doroklohe"
17:03:32 <MarvinPA> excellent, yes
17:03:54 <geekosaur> or turn the wall into a door and you have dooroklohe
17:04:06 <MarvinPA> hmm, looking at the list of wands i do sort of like disint's MR-based damage thing, maybe i'd push for /lightning removal over disint
17:04:14 <MarvinPA> so /confusion and /disint, perhaps
17:04:21 <MarvinPA> er
17:04:27 <MarvinPA> /confusion and /lightning
17:04:34 <gammafunk> confusion has too many charges so I support that
17:04:53 <gammafunk> lightning is not terribly interesting, just good, but it's a duplicate of a spell
17:05:02 <gammafunk> s/but/and/
17:05:28 <MarvinPA> yeah, i think it was kept over /fire and /cold because at least it has being bouncy over them
17:05:37 <gammafunk> yeah
17:05:45 <gammafunk> but then you made more AOE wands, so we don't need lightning!
17:05:47 <gammafunk> well done
17:06:18 <geekosaur> so make fire and cold bouncy, then remove green crystl walls
17:07:03 <gammafunk> doesn't work, we still have lightning spell
17:07:08 <gammafunk> and fire and cold are both spells
17:07:13 <gammafunk> have to remove bolt spells
17:07:22 <gammafunk> (these aren't serious suggestions I realise)
17:08:18 <gammafunk> I had thought about making recharge work on the XP evokers to give it some more relevance
17:08:32 <gammafunk> but maybe there's just not a compelling reason to keep that scroll around with stacking
17:08:42 <MarvinPA> i think there was a patch or pull request for that a while ago, i forget whose
17:09:05 <MarvinPA> i wasn't a big fan really, since it'd make it work in pretty different ways on different things
17:09:06 <gammafunk> yeah, easy to implement, just a question of whether we feel it would add anything
17:09:20 <gammafunk> yeah, and there's an awkward issue of wasted xp
17:09:58 <|amethyst> make acid bouncy
17:10:01 <MarvinPA> make ?recharging acting like EW on elec weapons again, old crawl was the weirdest
17:10:08 <MarvinPA> s/acting/act
17:10:20 <|amethyst> oh, on the subject of reducing the number of distinct consumables...
17:10:32 <|amethyst> would it be completely insane to merge torment and vulnerability?
17:10:48 <gammafunk> people already don't use vuln a lot
17:10:51 <gammafunk> that would make them never use it
17:11:03 <|amethyst> what about torment?
17:11:10 <|amethyst> do people use it outside things like TRJ
17:11:27 <|amethyst> I guess people with immunity or resistance
17:11:51 <gammafunk> yeah, undead players, I suppose sometimes a Gr might; I suppose it's a thing that people could use a lot more if they played with care
17:11:52 <MarvinPA> personally i use vuln rarely and torment practically never, would make for a pretty big combo of downsides on use
17:12:21 <gammafunk> losing half your HP: not popular with players
17:12:30 <|amethyst> also, related to those two spells: what does dangerous/purple mean?
17:13:00 <MarvinPA> good under kiku, probably, not that i've ever used them there! extra torment uses without spending piety
17:13:24 <|amethyst> "likely to have negative side-effects", "likely to be worse than it is good, especially if you don't use it well", "likely to be worse than it is good even if you use it well", or "we don't recommend you use it" ?
17:13:37 <gammafunk> "this one is pretty weird"
17:13:45 <|amethyst> and based on the answer, is it correct to disable autopickup of such items by default? :)
17:14:27 <|amethyst> ambrosia isn't purple because of me, but my real complaint wasn't that it was purple, but that it wasn't autopickuped by default
17:14:33 <gammafunk> capable of causing self-harm isn't well defined enough? I suppose with lig there's no direct harm, it's just "tactical danger"
17:15:05 <|amethyst> berserk should be purple too then :)
17:15:19 <gammafunk> well it's a question of degree right
17:15:19 <MarvinPA> the comment says "Is an item dangerous but potentially worthwhile?", although yeah i'm sure there's a bunch of other stuff you could argue fits there
17:15:29 <gammafunk> we use colors for degree already for potions/scrolls
17:15:44 <gammafunk> slow is much less bad than immobility, generally speaking
17:15:54 <gammafunk> but yeah I agree it's tricky
17:15:58 <|amethyst> and I guess lig is much more situational than BR
17:17:33 <gammafunk> so, it sounded like general support for removing recharge scrolls (I can take a look at wand numbers/charges to try to compensate), but how about for identification of wands?
17:17:33 <gammafunk> choices seem to be
17:18:02 <gammafunk> 1) remove wand identification 2) you only have to id the wand base type once and 3) only ided wands can merge with other ided wands; unided wands won't stack
17:18:10 <gammafunk> or maybe there's a 4) ???
17:18:18 <|amethyst> 4) track how many of the charges are "identified"
17:18:36 <|amethyst> once you run out of identified charges (which are used first), it starts costing double or whatever
17:18:45 <gammafunk> oh, heh
17:19:06 <gammafunk> sounds too awkward and difficult to communicate
17:19:21 <gammafunk> but that certainly would preserve the current identification
17:19:45 <|amethyst> {empty} vs "0/24" is already just as awkward IMO
17:20:03 <gammafunk> yes, that is sort of weird
17:20:10 <gammafunk> so how would this charge tracking look?
17:20:15 <|amethyst> hm
17:20:26 <gammafunk> (12 identified charges) ?
17:20:32 <|amethyst> wand of enslavement (5+?/24)
17:20:52 <|amethyst> I guess you wouldn't have the /24 any more
17:21:02 <|amethyst> so (5 + ?)
17:21:12 <gammafunk> I guess the ? is redundant?
17:21:18 <|amethyst> (> 5)
17:21:32 <|amethyst> do want to show somehow that there are some unided charges
17:22:10 <gammafunk> well, the > is already trying to indicate this
17:22:16 <|amethyst> right
17:22:17 <gammafunk> if I understood your proposal correctly
17:22:33 <|amethyst> oh, by "the ? is redundant", you meant (5+) or such
17:22:45 <|amethyst> sorry
17:22:46 <|amethyst> I was thinking you meant just (5), which IMO is distinct
17:23:17 <|amethyst> (5) means the charges are fully identified, and there are exactly 5
17:23:21 <gammafunk> right, ok
17:23:37 <MarvinPA> you would still want the max charges displayed surely in that case, though? so you can keep track of how close to empty you're likely to be
17:23:50 <gammafunk> well with stacking, should wands have a max charge?
17:23:55 <gammafunk> It seems they should have no max
17:24:03 <gammafunk> there's no recharging I guess in this proposal
17:24:13 <|amethyst> max charge is irrelevant other than itemgen without recharging
17:24:18 <|amethyst> but MPA is talking about itemgen
17:24:27 <|amethyst> knowing how many charges they're likely to have
17:24:29 <MarvinPA> right, your stack would have a "maximum charge this could have been generated with"
17:24:38 <|amethyst> (5 + ?(0-24))
17:24:50 <|amethyst> (5 + ?(4×0-24))
17:24:57 <|amethyst> seems awkward :)
17:25:03 <MarvinPA> your stack of /clouds (5 used) is closer to empty than your stack of /flame (5 used), or whatever
17:25:14 <|amethyst> oh
17:25:27 <|amethyst> since this is stacking and we haven't removed this option yet:
17:25:34 <|amethyst> what happens when you partial drop your stack?  :(
17:25:45 <|amethyst> I would be ok with removing partial pickup and partial drop
17:25:50 <|amethyst> it also makes the ; key more sane
17:26:12 <gammafunk> I guess I don't see how partial drop would matter for wands
17:26:22 <|amethyst> if they merge I mean
17:26:37 <|amethyst> if you drop one of a stack, how many charges go with it?
17:26:45 <gammafunk> oh
17:26:54 <gammafunk> well I was not thinking of stacking like potion stacking
17:26:55 <MarvinPA> i wouldn't be against removing partial pickup/drop yeah, they do technically have potential uses but it's probably so edge-casey as to not matter
17:27:00 <gammafunk> I was thinking about wand charge merging
17:27:01 <|amethyst> unless you make wands specifically just move charges around
17:27:05 <gammafunk> right
17:27:17 <|amethyst> but IMO then you should at least think about removing partial drop
17:27:18 <gammafunk> I mean having stacks of that kind doesn't make sense to me
17:27:25 <|amethyst> if you're walking down that road already :)
17:28:04 <gammafunk> hrm, well just to be clear, what I was thinking was that when you pick up a wand of a type you already have, the charges of the new wand are merged into your current one, the new wand is destroyed
17:28:12 <gammafunk> you only ever have one of a type in inventory
17:28:24 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  sounds reasonable
17:28:40 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  also, since there's no recharge, when you use up all the charges the wand is also destroyed
17:28:45 <gammafunk> yeah
17:28:49 <gammafunk> does that have any relation to partial pickup/drop?
17:28:56 <|amethyst> no
17:28:56 <gammafunk> *does any of that
17:28:59 <gammafunk> ok
17:29:09 <|amethyst> but I still think it wouldn't be a terrible idea
17:29:37 <|amethyst> it's not a dependency or anything, just an inspiration :)
17:30:40 <gammafunk> yeah I don't have any objection to partial pickup/drop removal, just wanted to be clear I understood things
17:30:42 <|amethyst> (bonuses: D screen implementation is significantly simpler, maybe we can remove the <count> support altogether and make the \ menu more sane in the process, ...)
17:30:59 <gammafunk> and I guess I haven't thought of partial pickup/drop removal and what side-effects it might have
17:31:07 <gammafunk> it's been a while since I've even done it
17:31:17 <|amethyst> The only case anyone has pointed out to me where it matters:
17:31:18 <gammafunk> which is probably a sign that it's not terribly relevant
17:32:38 <|amethyst> you have a portal vault and your inventory is near-full, so you want to drop things before you go in.  But maybe it's better to drop all but one of those !might instead of all of them, so you have still one to use on the minotaur if you need, and if you don't use it you at worst have wasted one potion
17:32:53 <MarvinPA> "wanting to take only some of your potions of foo into pan or a portal vault, because you absolutely need to carry everything else but might find some loot in there that's important than half of your potions of foo but less important than all of your potions of foo"
17:33:08 <MarvinPA> haha
17:33:08 <gammafunk> nice copypasta
17:33:08 <|amethyst> yeah, that :)
17:33:10 <MarvinPA> yes, |amethyst probably explained it better
17:33:38 <gammafunk> yeah
17:33:50 <gammafunk> and I suppose if we did remove that partial pickup drop...hrm, maybe not
17:34:01 <gammafunk> I was going to say people could annotate stacks to keep a single potion
17:34:11 <gammafunk> but I guess that would be hard to do with no partial pickup/drop
17:34:19 <MarvinPA> they could! you'd just have to do it from the start
17:34:21 <gammafunk> however you could do it on the first potion you got of a type
17:34:22 <gammafunk> yes
17:35:02 <gammafunk> well, guess we have to remove portals; minmay has a post about that
17:35:03 <MarvinPA> can eagerly await the ultraviolent run where every tile stepped on is tracked, and every item picked up is inscribed individually
17:35:51 <|amethyst> %git city-connection
17:35:51 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.16-a0-3624-gd71b18a: Paint stepped-on squares. 10(2 years, 7 months ago, 5 files, 13+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d71b18abbf94
17:35:53 <gammafunk> koboldina is already inscribing literally every weapon with her etsy url, maybe we should just give players some nice incsription lua
17:36:22 <gammafunk> trap reform, which I said I might work on this release, will solve that problem!
17:36:31 <gammafunk> never mind it requiring looking at a lot of vaults
17:36:43 <|amethyst> I'd also like to see ranged reform Soon
17:36:45 <gammafunk> and figuring out how to balance trap triggering so that it's not insane
17:36:55 <gammafunk> oh, yeah, but someone has to want to work on it
17:36:56 <|amethyst> also, what is necessary to get WJC into 0.21?
17:37:31 <|amethyst> (aside: I can't help but read that as "Wu-Jang Clan")
17:38:20 <MarvinPA> i had a couple of things that i was going to work on but my notes on it are vague and it's been a while so i'd have to look up irc logs probably to remind myself exactly what my plans were :P
17:38:39 <gammafunk> I recall possible merge with Usk being one approach
17:38:59 <gammafunk> not sure how great an idea that is; Lasty took a look but I think he thought only one of the abilities would be a good fit
17:40:19 <MarvinPA> yeah, i sort of liked that - i think it was that whirlwind and lunge would be added to usk, and stomp removed?
17:40:55 <gammafunk> yeah, stomp is one ability Lasty was maybe looking to replace
17:41:10 <MarvinPA> i know there was some good discussion on it anyway, either for that approach or for just some simpler changes to wjc directly
17:41:32 <MarvinPA> will try and look them up and make better notes, since that was the main thing i wanted to work on for 0.21
17:43:48 <|amethyst> Also (and reply via PM if you prefer): are there any outstanding dev candidates?
17:44:05 <|amethyst> I see one or two in the works, but not ready yet
17:46:29 <MarvinPA> i don't really have anyone in mind right now (although i also haven't been paying full attention to PRs recently)
17:47:13 -!- gressup is now known as gressupthefilthy
17:47:27 -!- gressupthefilthy is now known as gressupthecasual
17:47:35 <|amethyst> IMO keep an eye on johnstein, he's been doing a lot of bug work (that we still need to review)
17:53:06 -!- gressupthecasual is now known as gressup
17:53:26 <|amethyst> oh, should Chei wrath use tension?  I can see why it does, but is it gameable?
17:54:40 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  also, I think you mentioned you were going to remove that special case where monsters of low intelligence don't know that they themselves set off an alarm trap, so are attracted to it?
17:55:21 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  or at least you expressed derision at the continued existence of that code :)
17:58:15 <MarvinPA> hmm, i don't honestly remember that! although that definitely sounds like something i'd say/do
18:05:13 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-185-g3a6ed1e (34)
18:05:56 <gammafunk> good monster AI
18:31:09 <Lasty> !tell gammafunk yeah, the throwing->slings crosstraining is pretty sick. I'd be happy to remove it.
18:31:09 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
18:33:06 <gammafunk> tedronai also pointed out how javs at 27 throwing do more aveefdam than a fully enchanted triple sword at max skill
18:33:06 <Sequell> gammafunk: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:33:37 <gammafunk> which is just sort of pointing out that using the UC combat damage scaling so directly was probably not the best idea
18:33:55 <gammafunk> but that's kind of getting more into the legendary Ranged Reform
18:34:17 <gammafunk> greatest crawl myths: Ranged Reform, webtiles-changes, food removal, ???
18:35:04 <wheals_> reform reform
18:35:29 <amalloy> gammafunk: single sign on
18:35:29 <gammafunk> you don't get points for just going meta, wheals
18:35:29 <gammafunk> amalloy: oh that's a good one
18:35:41 <amalloy> it's waiting on webtiles-changes
18:36:08 <gammafunk> which itself depends on ranged reform
18:36:58 <wheals_> steam...
18:37:11 <gammafunk> oh yeah
18:37:17 <gammafunk> sort of now on the won't-do list
18:37:22 <gammafunk> since it requires a fee
18:38:44 <Lasty> gammafunk: to be fair, we could reform throwing without having to do full mythical reform
18:38:56 <Lasty> I already nerfed throwing speed
18:39:12 <Lasty> we could also just revert damage back to using normal formulas
18:39:16 <Lasty> so that throwing is only meh again
18:41:32 <gammafunk> maybe it's something we could take a look at this release
18:42:58 <Lasty> You forgot to add "fixing luring" to the myth list
18:49:11 <amalloy> gammafunk: shorter extended
18:51:41 <johnstein> you have to watch out for me. I'm pretty good at faking competence
18:52:06 <amalloy> hey johnstein, do you want me to merge the dith fire thing or are you still working on that?
18:52:17 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir
18:58:18 <johnstein> amalloy: I thought of a couple more past minute things to check so I will let you know after that. pretty sure it's good though.
18:58:20 <johnstein> thanks
19:15:15 <neizenel> gammafunk: if you did any glyph changes, could you paste what you have somewhere so I can see your edited version? Or were you directly editing the PR on github
19:15:42 <gammafunk> I was editing in a local branch yeah
19:16:50 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
19:19:19 <neizenel> should I push any changes to the PR or send you a diff based on your edits?
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pr554 (6 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/pr554
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03nikheizen02 {gammafunk} 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-179-g94ff992: Four simple arrival vaults 10(7 weeks ago, 2 files, 100+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/94ff99298a8c
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03nikheizen02 {gammafunk} 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-180-g1113f6f: Two float vaults 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 89+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1113f6f0734b
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03nikheizen02 {gammafunk} 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-181-g5de871b: Two new altar vaults in the shape of good letters 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 30+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5de871ba8299
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-182-g1b2a6f0: Touch up a vault and simplify its glyph usage 10(20 hours ago, 1 file, 24+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1b2a6f0cbdcf
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-183-g7d51b45: Clean up water placement in a float vault 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7d51b453858c
19:20:01 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07[pr554] * 0.21-a0-184-ge0fb6ac: WIP updates to nzn_random_ring 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 19+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e0fb6ac8779e
19:20:09 <gammafunk> well my changes can stay as commits I make
19:20:14 <gammafunk> but I've just pushed a branch you can look at
19:20:36 <gammafunk> the last commit there is not complete and my not have valid syntax
19:21:01 <gammafunk> the previous two should be complete, but may have some errors
19:21:24 <gammafunk> if you like the changes you see there, then you don't have to do anything
19:21:45 <gammafunk> if you'd like to rework things in a different way though, let me know
19:22:06 <gammafunk> for the arrival vault I replaced simply diagonals with a better-looking path
19:22:48 <gammafunk> the water vault change was pretty minor, just move mf avatar away from stairs
19:23:16 <gammafunk> for teh random_ring vault there are the changes in the commit and I forgot to mention how I moved the hostile statue placement into the wider hallways
19:23:21 <gammafunk> so that those could be more effective
19:24:01 <gammafunk> oh and I was going to randomize monster numbers
19:24:23 <gammafunk> and try to move traps so that they're not always placed on a specific glyph set
19:24:58 <gammafunk> which is a fairly minor spoiler but a spoiler all the same; just make them place anywhere in the relevant corridors of that vault instead of on special "glyph paths"
19:44:48 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir
20:03:42 <travis-ci> The build passed. (pr554 - e0fb6ac #8607 : gammafunk): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/263692525