00:00:26 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.21-a0-163-g3aa3f5d (34)
01:07:43 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
01:56:52 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-163-g3aa3f5d
02:27:57 -!- mikee__ is now known as mikee_
02:53:39 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-163-g3aa3f5d
06:02:50 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
08:20:43 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
08:36:16 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
10:54:03 <shmup> purely a consistency thing, do you think it'd be OK to adjust the cards that don't start off with "Drawing this ...." so they do, or, removing all so they don't
10:54:06 <shmup> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/cards.txt
10:54:31 <shmup> (writing up a short guide for nemelex, ala cheat sheet, and noticed the inconsistency)
11:04:53 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/584 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/584
11:04:53 <Cheibriados> 03Jared Miller02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/584 * 0.21-a0-164-g1f5fe70: Use consistent wording on cards 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f5fe709b909
11:05:43 <advil> seems reasonable
11:06:10 <advil> esp since the cards are only used in the context of drawing, so the wording without that is mildly misleading
11:16:53 <shmup> unsure how I feel about "Foo card" and "the Bar card", but better example: "the Cloud card", "Velocity card", "the Pentagram card", "Foxfire card"
11:17:16 <shmup> i don't know if there's a hard rule for "the" versus no "the"
11:44:13 -!- mumra is now known as paisley
11:44:18 -!- paisley is now known as docpaisley
11:45:14 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07* 0.21-a0-164-g4aaa757: Add a command to temporarily suppress wiz/debug mode for UI testing 10(21 minutes ago, 14 files, 48+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4aaa757894b0
11:49:49 <shmup> man supress_wizard and wizard_supress
11:50:48 <shmup> hey that's nice advil
11:54:10 <advil> maybe, it was kind of a hack job, but it's something I find myself temporarily implementing all the time in my local branch
11:56:31 <|amethyst> advil:  I'd make ctrl-y toggle suppression back off maybe?
11:57:06 <advil> hmm, I thought about that but it seems that ctrl-y is a movement command outside of &
11:57:20 <advil> maybe it's just ignoring the ctrl, I didn't look closely
11:57:24 <|amethyst> oh right
11:57:25 <|amethyst> sorry
11:57:30 <advil> right now & turns it off
11:57:31 <|amethyst> forgot it's &ctrl-y
11:57:40 <|amethyst> so you have to press & anyway if it toggled
11:57:49 <|amethyst> ignore me :)
11:58:03 <|amethyst> s/you/you'd/
11:58:25 <advil> heh, well any suggestions for making that more elegant would be good (but I guess wizmode doesn't need elegance really)
11:59:09 <advil> it's unfortunate how much debug output is wrapped only in #ifdef DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS, but since I only have needed this for particular projects it's easy enough to fix piecemeal
12:01:59 <|amethyst> yeah, ideally everything would be handled by at least one &^Q option
12:02:19 <advil> yeah
12:02:28 <|amethyst> even if only &^Q had a generic "everything else" option
12:03:28 <|amethyst> oh, "normal" does that anyway I guess
12:03:54 <|amethyst> (for dprf, not for mprfs that add extra info)
12:04:11 <|amethyst> (and things that don't use mprf at all)
12:05:11 <advil> yeah, I'm as much interested in UI changes beyond just messaging as anything though
12:05:55 <advil> as this PR I just created (if it ever shows up here) will reveal
12:06:08 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/585 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585
12:06:08 <Cheibriados> 03advil02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/585 * 0.21-a0-165-g7f45421: Add messaging about skill level targets to weapon information 10(2 hours ago, 7 files, 241+ 76-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f454216b1b5
12:06:19 <|amethyst> I thought about complaining about this, but decided it didn't actually matter
12:06:40 <advil> :-)
12:06:43 <|amethyst> wizard_suppress() sets you.wizard before you.suppress_wizard
12:07:11 <|amethyst> so there might be a race condition allowing you to remove wizmode, BUT
12:07:16 <advil> heh
12:07:27 <|amethyst> I think there's no guarantee the two wouldn't be reordered anyway
12:07:34 <|amethyst> without some kind of memory barrier
12:08:40 <|amethyst> and if you can get a signal delivered between those two assignments without a debugger, that's impressive
12:08:52 <advil> yeah, at that point editing the save file might be easier
12:09:25 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-164-g4aaa757 (34)
12:09:27 <|amethyst> since you'd have to either hit a page fault on the first, or hit the end of your timeslice in between
12:09:53 <|amethyst> yeah, and if you control the crawl process you can just debug and set the values manually
12:10:02 <advil> but noted, if I change that function further I'll reorder them :-)
12:10:13 <|amethyst> which is probably even easier than save editing
12:10:32 <|amethyst> well, as easy
12:10:46 <advil> I suppose for real safety I should have only allowed suppress_wizard with DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS in the first place
12:11:04 <|amethyst> no, I think it makes sense without that
12:11:24 <|amethyst> I do a lot of my testing with a non-debug build, but wizmode does still change some things
12:11:30 <advil> ah ok
12:11:53 <|amethyst> (well, it's debug-lite or the equivalent)
12:12:25 <advil> hm at some point I should double check that it doesn't do anything too insane on a webtiles build
12:13:10 <|amethyst> it might be good to have an equivalent of the *WIZ* light
12:13:21 <|amethyst> though I suppose you might be testing console messages
12:13:40 <advil> yeah, it won't have a light in webtiles
12:13:49 <|amethyst> does wizmode?
12:13:58 <advil> yeah I think so
12:14:15 <advil> git grep WIZARD\\\* turned up something in javascript and I didn't look further
12:14:20 <|amethyst> mostly to make it harder to fake screenshots
12:14:37 <advil> right, I didn't think about screenshots
12:15:00 <|amethyst> there's still photoshop, so maybe there's no point
12:15:09 <advil> although to run webtiles locally you more or less need to compile it yourself anyways, in which case you just delete that code
12:15:34 <|amethyst> I was also thinking console and local tiles
12:16:09 <advil> there is a light when suppressed for console/local tiles if that's what you mean (it says *EX-WIZARD*)
12:16:16 <|amethyst> ah, I missed that
12:16:49 <|amethyst> I would consider "EX-WIZ" so it isn't longer than the other two
12:17:23 <|amethyst> also, the bikeshed should be corrugated steel
12:17:28 <advil> heh
12:22:36 <|amethyst> (I was going to say "blue" instead, but decided there was too high a risk that would be taken as an actual suggestion to change the colour of the light)
12:40:11 <johnstein> advil: I like your skill UI idea
12:41:54 <shmup> hmmmm
12:41:56 <shmup> zackoid: heh sorry i never notice the chat box
12:42:11 <shmup> zackoid: i hate the flash i just have it for distortion
12:42:24 <shmup> maybe.. would you entertain idea of a config for better noticing chats in webtiles? :D
12:42:51 <shmup> <blink>3 new messages</blink> heh
12:43:15 <shmup> those two user messages aren't related but in same convo and made me think about UX shit for noticing messages
12:45:49 <advil> I think this is the wrong channel for zackoid
12:46:12 <advil> the webtiles UI definitely needs some work, not sure how I feel about that specific idea (but I'm not a webtiles player)
12:48:05 <advil> webtiles chat UI that is
12:48:15 <advil> wishlist: i. webtiles messages -> console players. ii. player should have some control over their chat box -- at a minimum ban/kick, disable.
12:49:09 <shmup> advil: sorry, was pasting his message as an example of the problem
12:49:19 <advil> oh I see
12:49:30 <shmup> and the 2nd message as me thinking about flashing for messages which is a bad idea and i take the thought back :P
12:50:03 <shmup> xo your wishlist 1.
13:17:45 <Lasty> !tell bh yeah, we should absolutely do that
13:17:45 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let bh know.
13:19:02 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:21:30 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-164-g4aaa757 (34)
13:34:15 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
16:18:59 -!- Amnesiac__ is now known as Amnesiac
18:14:12 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-164-g4aaa757 (34)
18:25:49 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.21-a0-165-g58e633f: Adjust Revivification spell description 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/58e633fd0744
18:25:49 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.21-a0-166-g9610e65: Adjust a wrath message 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9610e65fbf30
18:25:49 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.21-a0-167-gb3930bd: Fix Vehumet enhancing the range of evoked spells (#11168) 10(4 minutes ago, 4 files, 7+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3930bd4f9b5
18:25:49 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.21-a0-168-g9838b1c: Adjust potions of mutation 10(5 months ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9838b1ca09a1
18:26:21 <Cheibriados> 03Jared Miller02 07* 0.21-a0-164-g1f5fe70: Use consistent wording on cards 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f5fe709b909
18:26:21 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 {GitHub} 07* 0.21-a0-170-g0398fc9: Merge pull request #584 from shmup/master 10(6 seconds ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0398fc98aeba
18:29:57 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  btw, you can select "rebase" or "squash" or something like that from the drop-down menu when merging to avoid the merge commit while still marking the PR as "merged" instead of "closed"
18:30:05 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  assuming you're using the github UI for that
18:30:17 <MarvinPA> aha, i was yeah
18:34:16 <gammafunk> |amethyst: hrm, is that actually preferrable? Would the commit at least show in some way what PR it came from?
18:35:20 <gammafunk> It's nice if there's at least some mention of the PR from which the commit came since the PR contains discussion
18:35:45 <gammafunk> so it'd be nice if it were somehow indicated in some way what the PR number is in the commit
18:37:44 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I'm not sure if it automatically adds something like (merges #NNN), but it does at least give you the chance to edit the commit message
18:38:24 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I agree that one should add that if it's not already present
18:39:05 <|amethyst> there's an ice cream truck outside, and I was thinking
18:39:17 <|amethyst> someone should program their ice cream truck to play the theme from Shadowgate
18:39:28 <|amethyst> or Castlevania or somethin
18:39:29 <|amethyst> g
18:40:32 <gammafunk> agree
18:40:36 <gammafunk> on both points
18:40:54 <gammafunk> also the ice cream guy could be dressed up as dracula or simon belmont
18:41:39 <gammafunk> I wonder though, if you do that mege
18:41:48 <gammafunk> s/mege/rebase/
18:41:52 <|amethyst> "Five to find, three are one.  Neapolitan is tasty fun."
18:42:07 <gammafunk> does the commit author get credit?
18:42:18 <gammafunk> would it show up as a commit authored by them but commited by you
18:48:09 <|amethyst> I think so, or ought to
18:48:37 <|amethyst> "In verse one does just what one can / Spumoni---better---doesn't scan"
18:50:26 <|amethyst> It's not a big deal anyway, as long as whatever you're merging doesn't itself contain merges back to master
18:51:37 <|amethyst> So if I were to make a branch or PR to remove food... would it be merged?
18:51:52 <|amethyst> or would it be better just to pull the relevant commits from hellcrawl?
18:52:43 <|amethyst> there are various knock-on effects, of course, and I haven't looked to see what HC does with them
18:53:13 <gammafunk> Well I think there would be some discussion about it. How are all the food-costing things balanced? What about Gozag?
18:53:15 <|amethyst> vampires, ghouls, food vaults, gozag, fedhas, explosions, ...
18:53:33 <|amethyst> berserk I guess too
18:54:23 <MarvinPA> i certainly wouldn't merge it or want it to be merged, yeah
18:55:19 <|amethyst> I feel like hunger only matters for Vp, Gh, Tr, and Sp
18:55:38 <|amethyst> maybe gozag, but only if you're using high-level spells
18:55:57 <gammafunk> Well hunger matters for spellcasters and for gozag worshipers as well
18:55:59 <|amethyst> (or belong to one of the aforementioned races)
18:56:55 <|amethyst> I think it doesn't matter for most spellcasters; last time I did a sample of the past N games, only a small fraction had less permafood generated than the nutrition gained from chunks
18:57:12 <|amethyst> past N winning games, that is
18:57:43 <gammafunk> That's not the same thing at all as saying "hunger doesn't matter" though
18:58:06 <|amethyst> that's true, there is a small tactical effect since sometimes you do run out of nutrition while engages
18:58:12 <|amethyst> s/gages/gaged/
18:58:28 <gammafunk> Hunger matters in the sense that you have to adapt to it appropriately; it's pretty easy to run into food problems at various stages of the game as a spellcaster (without gozag)
18:59:35 <gammafunk> But it's still good to ask what gameplay we actually want from food and whether the gameplay we have is good, and if would be good to preserve it in some other way that didn't involved tedium for those chars that clearly don't have to think about it
19:00:39 <|amethyst> what about removing hunger-with-time and making it solely dependent on spells?  (again with special handling of some sort for Vp, Gh, Gozag)  Because I don't think I've seen a single melee (or even non-blaster) game where hunger mattered
19:00:57 <MarvinPA> i think it's important to have some form of forward pressure, certainly food doesn't do a good job of it but just removing it without having anything else doing that job wouldn't be great
19:01:00 <|amethyst> auto_eat_chunks and auto_butcher does remove most of the tedium
19:01:28 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  my suggestion would be to either remove spawns, or make them 0-XP
19:03:19 <gammafunk> 0XP spawns are a bad idea pretty clearly I think
19:03:55 <MarvinPA> the problem with no food and no spawns over time is letting you just sit and wait for every monster to eventually wander to you at the location of your choice
19:04:18 <gammafunk> yeah, that's true
19:05:52 <MarvinPA> i wouldn't be totally against later spawns being 0 XP necessarily, if they can still be ood and dangerous to force you not to sit around
19:06:03 <|amethyst> if food is kept, I do have one suggestion
19:06:04 <MarvinPA> i think halls of mist does that, the main thing would be making it clear
19:06:15 <gammafunk> hrm
19:06:33 <gammafunk> well, one issue with the ood stuff is that
19:06:36 <|amethyst> namely, allow the player to eat mutagenic chunks while full/engorged; and turn on auto_eat_chunks by default
19:06:52 <gammafunk> oh yeah that would be a nice change if we kept the status quo
19:07:04 <gammafunk> ood works fairly well only in some branches like D, maybe Vaults, maybe Depths
19:07:08 <|amethyst> and maybe auto_butcher = hungry
19:07:13 <|amethyst> instead of very hungry
19:07:15 <gammafunk> probably works generally very poorly in lair branches
19:07:35 <gammafunk> but it works best in D overall
19:07:49 <gammafunk> we'd probably ahve to make the ood timer spawns some kind of universal monster set?
19:08:08 <gammafunk> since they're shadow creatures, I guess we could do that
19:08:08 <gammafunk> assuming the 0XP thing
19:08:08 <|amethyst> I use auto_eat_chunks and easy_eat_chunks, and the only bad thing is that if I'm a troll or kobold or felid, I have to drop my regular chunks when I want to eat the purple
19:08:44 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  or give all the other branches higher OOD caps
19:08:53 <gammafunk> what does higher mean?
19:09:07 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.21-a0-170-g0398fc9 (34)
19:09:10 <gammafunk> the issue is that the monster lists in those branches
19:09:17 <hellmonk> I missed most of this discussion but don't pull the hellcrawl commits, they are a fucking mess
19:09:19 <gammafunk> they use the same monsters you find normally in the branch
19:09:20 <|amethyst> right, with the appropriate adjustments to that
19:09:33 <|amethyst> just like D has OOD-only spawns
19:09:33 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well what I'm saying is you can't stick with thematic monsters from the branch
19:09:38 <hellmonk> disagree that food is important in anything but really weird edge cases though
19:09:40 <gammafunk> they won't really do the job
19:09:49 <MarvinPA> yeah, presumably along with having to add to the spawn lists - having one shadow creature/ood list might be easier in terms of both clarity and less work to get one decent list
19:10:06 <MarvinPA> than needing to add more oods to a lot of branches
19:10:08 <gammafunk> hellmonk: well I disagree with simply saying "food isn't important on spellcasters" from the standpoint that you have to plan your character around it with some care
19:10:17 <|amethyst> that does reduce distinction between Shadow Creatures and rod of... oh
19:10:29 <gammafunk> it's not important from a difficulty standpoint too much, it's important in that players who completely ignore it will have massive problems (as heavy spell users)
19:10:48 <hellmonk> gammafunk: I don't think that's true unless you are with gozag or a spriggan, unless you mean it's a tactical limit on spamming firestorm (but mp already does that)
19:11:13 <|amethyst> I probably overdo Spc because I like the sweet sweet spell slots, but I have never had strategic food problems on a caster
19:11:24 <|amethyst> tactical at times
19:11:54 <gammafunk> hellmonk: you cannot simply use higher level spells with relative abandon (not talking about firestorm levels here) and think nothing of your food/spellcasting levels
19:11:55 <|amethyst> but then, I also have never visited and survived extended
19:12:19 <|amethyst> okay, at the very least
19:12:29 <|amethyst> can we remove royal jellies, or merge them with bread rations?
19:12:35 <|amethyst> also, do we need food vaults?
19:12:48 <hellmonk> gammafunk: strongly disagree and I'm genuinely surprised you think so
19:12:51 <|amethyst> I would also like to remove fruit, but fedhas
19:13:29 <hellmonk> going 0 spellcasting is already suboptimal because of its effect on mp, power, success, and spell slots, training spellcasting just for those things is enough
19:13:33 <|amethyst> hell, I would like to merge bread and meat, and make carn/herb mean "can't eat permafood/can't eat chunks"
19:13:42 <gammafunk> yeah, it's quite easy to run into food problems as a mage if you do things like relatively undertrain SC relative to your spell usage, this can particularly be the case if you use corpse spells
19:13:55 <MarvinPA> i'd be sad about losing the silly royal jelly joke but wouldn't really be opposed, and yeah i'm not sure food vaults are necessary
19:13:56 <gammafunk> and no one is talking about 0 spellcasting, which you can't even do with a mage start anyhow
19:14:12 <|amethyst> certainly there's no reason to have herb/carn 1-2
19:14:28 <MarvinPA> i forget what even prompted their addition, was it the original batch of contam chunk/nausea changes?
19:14:46 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  I think so
19:15:02 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  or at least the food reforms of the same era
19:15:26 <|amethyst> I don't think herb/carn 1-2 even exist, do they?
19:15:48 <|amethyst> they don't appear as randmuts anymore, and all the species that have them have level 3
19:15:56 <gammafunk> |amethyst: overtraining SC is a thing people do a lot, but yeah one positive side-effect of that is that you probably aren't going to run into food issues
19:16:11 <hellmonk> not sure if I'm being trickeronied here. I have never had food problems on a mage and I would be very surprised if removing food had any serious implications on optimal mage skilling.
19:16:26 <|amethyst> hm
19:16:31 <|amethyst> would be nice to be able to do
19:16:37 <|amethyst> !lg * nutrition<30000
19:16:38 <Sequell> Unknown field: nutrition
19:16:39 <gammafunk> hellmonk no one is talking about optimal skilling
19:16:45 <gammafunk> do most crawl players use optimal skilling?
19:16:50 <|amethyst> where "nutrition" counts all extant seen items
19:16:57 <gammafunk> 1% of players win when they start of a game of crawl, remember
19:17:37 <gammafunk> anyhow I don't think anyone truly likes thinking about food as a mage
19:17:37 <hellmonk> what exactly is the argument for food here then? every situation where you would starve on a mage is a situation where your skilling is already jacked up
19:18:33 <hellmonk> maybe I missed some context
19:18:35 <|amethyst> hellmonk:  I could see the argument that, without it, there is good reason to "undertrain" SC for some characters
19:19:05 <gammafunk> yeah it's a choice to not train it so high and just consume more food (but you have to be careful if you do)
19:19:14 <gammafunk> I've definitely had issues with getting low on food
19:19:29 <gammafunk> but I think we have pretty universal agreement that there are more interesting decisions to make in crawl
19:19:33 <|amethyst> but if food is mostly a strategic limit on spellcasting, maybe we could make food only relevant for spellcasters?
19:20:23 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well, putting food on spellcasters aside for a moment, how do you address what MPA said about forward progress
19:20:25 <|amethyst> It's essentially irrelevant for non-troll "melee characters" already, except you have to press buttons or at least auto-spend turns every now and again
19:20:49 <gammafunk> personally, I'd be alright with eliminating the spell hunger minigame; I just took exception with this idea that "it in no way matters ever"
19:20:53 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I would do 0 XP spawns, but you didn't like that too much
19:20:57 <|amethyst> :)
19:21:15 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well I'm willing to consider arguments that it would work, certainly
19:21:24 <gammafunk> that was more of an instinctual reaction tbh
19:21:27 <MarvinPA> xp from spawns would be another thing worth tracking for a bit first though (i think elliptic already suggested that recently when it came up before)
19:21:35 <gammafunk> oh that's true
19:21:35 <|amethyst> hm
19:21:49 <gammafunk> he had a local branch but ran into some problems with it
19:22:17 <|amethyst> could merge that into kills_by_place
19:22:18 <hellmonk> I didn't say it never mattered ever, I said it never mattered except in weird edge cases. That's been my experience with it, even when I do things like cast level 8 spells with 12 spellcasting or channel 2,000 times in one game.
19:23:07 <|amethyst> (and turn on kills_by_place by default, and make a few logfile/milestone fields)
19:23:45 <gammafunk> hellmonk: you're more likely to run into the problem around lair branches ime, before casting L8 spells, more casting L4-6 spells with maybe 6-8 SC
19:23:53 <MarvinPA> yeah, i feel like there'd also been some suggestion for splitting some of that stuff out into a new file? for stats that we want to track but maybe without clogging up default chardumps
19:24:30 <MarvinPA> but otherwise kills_by_place makes sense for it yeah
19:24:40 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  IMO there's no problem with clogging milestones/logfiles
19:24:55 <|amethyst> because if we want to query the data, it has to be *somewhere* that sequell sees it
19:25:16 <|amethyst> so putting it in a separate file doesn't help, since sequell still has to pull all those files
19:25:53 <|amethyst> I guess that's not "no problem", so much as "a separate file doesn't help the problem"
19:26:02 <gammafunk> hrm, we had talked about something like what MPA said but more for things like identifying seeing vaults; maybe that was more for spoilery things though
19:26:03 <|amethyst> s/,//
19:26:06 <gammafunk> that we can't reveal to the player
19:26:23 <MarvinPA> ah maybe that's what i was thinking yeah
19:26:24 <|amethyst> that can go into the logfile in general
19:26:43 <|amethyst> unless we really need to know "how much nutrition did the player have at milestone X"
19:26:48 <gammafunk> but yeah, maybe a first good step would be to get that data into the logfile so we can track
19:26:54 <|amethyst> in which case we'd need to add authentication to Sequell
19:27:34 <|amethyst> there are all kinds of things one could theoretically track with morgues right now, but no one does because it's too difficult (and maybe looks like a DOS :)
19:28:03 <|amethyst> except that reddit statistician guy, and people who have been banned for DOSsing :)
19:28:11 <hellmonk> gammafunk: I just haven't had an experience like that I guess.
19:28:40 <|amethyst> I guess far more pressing than what we do with food is...
19:28:57 <hellmonk> anyway do what you want with food, but foodless is clean as heck and not a huge balance concern imo
19:28:57 <|amethyst> we are kind of low on manpower right now
19:29:02 <|amethyst> %git 0.20.0
19:29:02 <Cheibriados> 07gammafunk02 * 0.20.0: Update the Debian changelog for 0.20 10(2 months ago, 1 file, 25+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/35d994404934
19:29:06 <|amethyst> %git
19:29:06 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 {GitHub} * 0.21-a0-170-g0398fc9: Merge pull request #584 from shmup/master 10(63 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0398fc98aeba
19:29:11 <|amethyst> 2 months and only 170 commits
19:29:41 <gammafunk> well I have some more things planned to work on this release, but was sort of looking for some release highlight thing
19:29:46 <|amethyst> a big part of my suggestion for removing food is that I feel we should make some substantial changes
19:30:16 <gammafunk> wand stacking and possibly the trap/los thing I was thinking about doing
19:30:29 <gammafunk> but it's always good to have at least one thing that feels like new content
19:30:38 <gammafunk> but yes, food reform would be a great project
19:30:45 <gammafunk> regardless of how food reform falls out precisely
19:30:46 <|amethyst> no one's worked on WJC since 0.20
19:30:49 <hellmonk> wand stacking would be good and prob less controversial, and is also pretty easy to implement
19:31:08 <hellmonk> cleaning up doesnty's spell library thing would also be good imo
19:31:19 <gammafunk> and yeah hellmonk I don't think "spell hunger for food" or food costs in general are at all required, we just care about he forward-progress aspect
19:31:26 <MarvinPA> yeah, i still have a bunch of stuff i want to get to (including WJC) but just haven't had a ton of time
19:31:27 <gammafunk> and we're not removing upstairs any time soon
19:31:44 <hellmonk> yeah I get it, you would definitely need some form of clock to remain
19:31:45 <gammafunk> wand stacking needs a look at balance and at scrolls of recharging
19:31:50 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  same here, with s/WJC/food reform/
19:31:58 <gammafunk> which is probably the only hard part of that aside from any technical issues
19:32:02 <|amethyst> but it sounds like my food reform ideas are a bit too radical
19:32:03 <hellmonk> what's the balance implication on wand stacking
19:32:23 <MarvinPA> but i think it's not a big deal if people just happen to be busy/away at the moment if the next version is delayed or lighter on stuff
19:32:30 <gammafunk> yes, agree with MPA there
19:32:33 <hellmonk> I guess for wasted charges through identification?
19:32:39 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  well, there is a good reason to try for a release in October
19:32:47 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  namely, the 20th anniversary
19:33:17 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  at the very least, by the end of the year
19:33:40 <|amethyst> and I'm about to have five classes a week in a couple weeks, so I doubt I'll be pickup up the slack anytime soon
19:33:41 <gammafunk> that is pretty cool, but a release delay, if it came to that, would also give us opportunities
19:34:09 <gammafunk> maybe something like bumping save compat
19:34:18 <gammafunk> and just letting something big like food reform stew a bit (HEH)
19:34:23 <|amethyst> yes, I think we should bump save compat very soon, but that's not something that at all interests players
19:34:23 <MarvinPA> the exciting new content people crave: a ton of new bugs introduced by finally breaking save compat
19:34:34 <hellmonk> pogchamp
19:34:37 <|amethyst> it's all downside for them
19:35:01 <gammafunk> we'll just put a spin on it: "There may be exciting new exploits for you discover and win with!"
19:35:06 <hellmonk> lol
19:35:15 <|amethyst> "No, I don't want to see your Pog collection"
19:35:24 <gammafunk> PlogChamp
19:35:26 <gammafunk> fr
19:35:37 <gammafunk> hrm, that *is* an amazing emote name
19:35:41 <gammafunk> I might have to make that happen
19:35:57 <hellmonk> imo introduce an achievement system, then it's like you have more content even though nothing changed
19:36:01 <|amethyst> I also really want to add an alternate win condition involving taking the Orb to Pan and ruling the Dungeon
19:36:21 <hellmonk> get everyone unlocking those cheevos
19:36:24 <gammafunk> well, to summarize wrt the food thing, tracking the spawns is something that would be cool and maybe I could implement if elliptic/neil don't have time
19:36:40 <|amethyst> but my ideas on that involve implementing randgods...
19:36:48 <|amethyst> (FR: implement randgods)
19:36:58 <gammafunk> and maybe we could then consider 0XP OOD spawns, but I think there are real design issues there of how to make effective ones
19:37:43 <gammafunk> could use a more universal set of spawns that just scaled appropriately with absdepth
19:38:00 <gammafunk> but a list of such spawns would need to be made
19:38:09 <|amethyst> I guess a minor thing, also hopefully not player-visible, but would be nice: actually use the messages in god_passives
19:38:38 <|amethyst> I think probably that would be at least a hundred LOC reduction
19:38:53 <MarvinPA> oh yeah, i've been wanting to do that/someone else to do that for a while too :P
19:39:21 <|amethyst> I cleaned up the messages a while ago so they would actually work
19:39:44 <|amethyst> %git fc596c4910b
19:39:45 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.20-a0-525-gfc596c4: Rationalise, document, and clean up god_passive messages. 10(6 months ago, 1 file, 185+ 73-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fc596c4910bf
19:39:59 <gammafunk> perhaps a good short term tweak would be neil's purple chunk eating suggestion and possibly the settings change
19:40:38 <gammafunk> if need be the ball could be kicked to 0.22, the release where Lightli is finally removed
19:40:52 <gammafunk> if not that version, version after that
19:43:03 <|amethyst> BTW, and answer via PM if you don't think it should be public: is there anyone who looks to be worth inviting right now
19:43:06 <|amethyst> ?
19:43:27 <|amethyst> because I feel like we are really low on available dev-hours since the retirement of PF
19:43:59 <|amethyst> see the number of commits since 0.20
19:44:33 <|amethyst> I could send a mail to PF or Grunt or kilobyte begging them to come back :)
19:44:33 <gammafunk> not at the moment I think, in terms of people making lots of contributions and whose ideas are likely to gel with current team
19:44:33 <|amethyst> it worked for Grunt once
19:44:58 <johnstein> what's Grunt up to lately?
19:45:08 <|amethyst> I'd be interested in seeing what kilobyte would do with modern Crawl
19:45:27 <MarvinPA> johnstein: making terrible puns on the couch at sgdq, recently
19:45:32 <|amethyst> even if his game design philosophy is a bit different from our current tradition
19:45:48 <MarvinPA> probably just "making terrible puns" in general is a safe bet
19:46:01 <|amethyst> alternatively, I could hire some graduate students to do whatever dpeg tells them to do
19:46:06 <gammafunk> but what MPA said about there being less activity for a while not being a huge problem is also true
19:46:06 <johnstein> heh
19:46:26 <johnstein> someone could give me a crash course in Crawl C++ and I'll help!
19:46:41 <|amethyst> johnstein:  I'd be happy to answer any questions you have in IRC
19:46:56 <johnstein> I've technically coded in C++, but there's shorthand(?) that I can't always parse or wrap my head around
19:46:57 <|amethyst> it's kind of my job to teach programming, so
19:47:27 <johnstein> I took a C++ 101 course in college, but since I already knew a smattering of languages, the only thing new were classes, which we barely touched
19:47:30 <|amethyst> (80% of my job, to be precise)
19:47:51 <gammafunk> it is not as if we have a commit quota after all; the point of having a dev team is that we all are able to cooperate and have some reasonably good sense of agreement about the game's design
19:48:05 <johnstein> I forgot about one of the midterms and got there a half hour late (1 hr exam) and still got out before 95% of the other students. I think I probably looked like a cocky jerk
19:48:20 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  well, I do fear that 0.21 will be either anaemic or late, by players' estimations
19:48:23 <gammafunk> I can understand that people who are more interesting overall in fixing bugs and code issues in particular want more code to come in regardless :)
19:48:35 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  we don't want to let hellmonk become the de facto devteam
19:48:44 <johnstein> maybe you guys can assign me something interesting or something that could help me understand something better
19:48:45 <gammafunk> |amethyst: yeah but we've had slow releases or lighter releases in the past
19:49:02 <johnstein> I've scanned the mantis backlog and I can never decide on anything to pick
19:49:18 <gammafunk> |amethyst: forks are supposed to actually exist and do their own thing; it's only natural that a fork gets a lot of activity for a while
19:49:28 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I kind of feel like "in the past" is mostly recently
19:49:46 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  but maybe I'm being a chicken little
19:49:46 <gammafunk> I'm thinking just like, what release was that
19:49:49 <gammafunk> 0.17?
19:50:03 <johnstein> then I can take |amethyst up on his offer
19:50:04 <gammafunk> 0.20 was a release with a healthy amount of new content
19:50:29 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess it doesn't really help that "recently" for me really means "since 0.9/0.10, when I joined"
19:50:42 <MarvinPA> i think this probably is the quietest i remember it being in a pretty good while to be fair
19:50:56 <gammafunk> yeah
19:50:57 <|amethyst> I should remind myself that I've been involved with DCSS for over half its lifetime
19:51:00 <johnstein> %git
19:51:00 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 {GitHub} * 0.21-a0-170-g0398fc9: Merge pull request #584 from shmup/master 10(85 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0398fc98aeba
19:51:17 <johnstein> !kw t
19:51:17 <Sequell> Built-in: t => start>='2017-05-26 20:00:00' time<'2017-06-11 20:00:00' ((cv=0.20|0.20-a)) explbr=
19:51:26 <|amethyst> %git g7b0e1919fa8630ebc5b5cb4c71ead75fafbc5805
19:51:26 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit g7b0e1919fa8630ebc5b5cb4c71ead75fafbc5805 (git returned 128)
19:51:33 <johnstein> !calc 170.0/2.0
19:51:33 <|amethyst> %git 7b0e1919f
19:51:33 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.21-a0-59-g7b0e191: Ungroup same-name mons in webtiles list (11110) 10(7 weeks ago, 2 files, 18+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7b0e1919fa86
19:51:34 <Sequell> 85
19:51:42 <johnstein> yea, I needed !calc for that
19:52:04 <MarvinPA> but yeah, i don't think it's a huge problem or anything, spare time & motivation comes and goes
19:52:26 <gammafunk> I'm going to try to get some good stuff in this release regardless
19:52:38 <gammafunk> trust me, neil's not going to be able to beat crawl again for a long long time
19:52:57 <gammafunk> if he does, I may have to retire
19:53:00 <|amethyst> johnstein:  could do a Mantis search for "newbie friendly" and "simple"
19:53:08 <|amethyst> !lg . runes=3
19:53:08 <Sequell> Unknown field: runes
19:53:12 <|amethyst> !lg . urune=3
19:53:13 <Sequell> 8. Neil the Slayer (L27 MiBe of Trog), blasted by Dittue the pandemonium lord (great icy blast) on Depths:1 on 2017-08-02 21:46:59, with 630450 points after 53725 turns and 2:28:45.
19:53:23 <gammafunk> uh oh!
19:53:26 <|amethyst> I did die on the orb run quite recently
19:53:27 <gammafunk> close call there
19:53:42 <gammafunk> time for Trog nerfs
19:53:54 <|amethyst> seriously, though, that's true
19:53:59 <|amethyst> Berserk should cost piety
19:54:07 <gammafunk> maybe, yeah
19:54:24 <|amethyst> it would also give troglodytes a reason to carry the potion and/or amulet
19:54:28 <|amethyst> other than Silence
19:54:58 <|amethyst> I also really feel like Int should do *something* unrelated to spellcasting
19:55:14 <hellmonk> spell library would also nerf trog (no books to burn)
19:55:52 <|amethyst> I always carry around a book or two with Trog
19:56:09 <|amethyst> but I'm not sure I've ever use Burn Books for anything but piety
19:56:15 <|amethyst> s/use/used/
19:56:33 <|amethyst> (but I'm a badplayer, so...)
19:56:59 <gammafunk> oh yeah you should be using those
19:57:02 <gammafunk> for cflame
19:57:19 <gammafunk> try using one in an ice cave, for instance
19:57:34 <|amethyst> I know, but in the situations where cflame is useful, I can usually just tab
19:57:46 <|amethyst> (hallway, etc)
19:57:59 <gammafunk> well probably those times when a strong thing killed you when you were worshiping trog, early on in the game
19:58:02 <|amethyst> I am a very lazy player
19:58:05 <gammafunk> you could have killed them if they were on fire
19:58:08 <|amethyst> yeah
19:58:19 <|amethyst> !lg . trog x=avg(xl)
19:58:20 <gammafunk> but yeah eventually it's not all that much damage proportionally
19:58:20 <Sequell> 609 games for |amethyst (trog): avg(xl)=6.54
19:58:24 <|amethyst> !lg . trog x=median(xl)
19:58:25 <Sequell> 609 games for |amethyst (trog): median(xl)=6
19:58:34 <gammafunk> around xl6 it's certainly good!
19:58:49 <gammafunk> !lg . trog
19:58:50 <Sequell> 8. gammafunk the Phalangite (L27 MfAM of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2017-06-11 12:18:36, with 1538107 points after 84750 turns and 5:42:55.
19:58:56 <johnstein> ??mantis
19:58:57 <Sequell> mantis[1/2]: To report bugs or submit new content like vaults, patches or tiles, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
19:58:58 <|amethyst> I like pressing tab too much
19:59:09 <|amethyst> !lg . xl>10 s=class
19:59:10 <Sequell> 664 games for |amethyst (xl>10): 110x Berserker, 81x Conjurer, 78x Monk, 65x Gladiator, 49x Fire Elementalist, 35x Hunter, 33x Earth Elementalist, 27x Enchanter, 25x Summoner, 20x Venom Mage, 16x Ice Elementalist, 16x Wizard, 13x Necromancer, 12x Artificer, 12x Wanderer, 12x Fighter, 10x Healer, 8x Air Elementalist, 7x Abyssal Knight, 7x Assassin, 6x Death Knight, 6x Stalker, 4x Chaos Knight, 4x P...
19:59:11 <gammafunk> infraarcana also has TAB
19:59:14 <gammafunk> you should try that game
19:59:31 <gammafunk> I actually haven't used tab in that game though
19:59:34 <gammafunk> now that I think about it
19:59:34 <|amethyst> hm
19:59:36 <|amethyst> probably should
19:59:50 <|amethyst> also CDDA
20:00:10 <johnstein> is there really a field for 'newbie friendly'?
20:00:10 <gammafunk> yeah some crawl players have liked that one a lot
20:00:12 <|amethyst> currently I play Crawl, Hyperrogue, Brogue, sometimes DoomRL, sometimes Sil
20:00:25 <gammafunk> Sil is maybe after IA for me
20:00:32 <|amethyst> johnstein:  yeah, under "Tags"
20:00:48 <johnstein> CDDA is a game I wish I would make time to play
20:01:00 <johnstein> I thought setting it up on dbro would make me play more since I could have people watch me
20:01:02 <|amethyst> johnstein:  https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11171  is the most recent
20:01:24 <johnstein> but the performance hit was expensive and was only possible before when cbro was relatively empty
20:01:45 <|amethyst> performance hit relative to what?
20:01:49 <|amethyst> playing locally?
20:02:13 <gammafunk> performance hit for other users on the system
20:02:48 <johnstein> I had CDDA and DF running through dgamelaunch on dbro
20:02:51 <|amethyst> johnstein plays crawl by DOSing the monsters
20:03:09 <johnstein> they ate like 30% of the RAM and CPU
20:03:14 <johnstein> per game
20:03:30 <johnstein> so I could have like 3 DF games going at once
20:03:41 <|amethyst> yeah, DF might not be something to run on a server that has other games running
20:03:51 <|amethyst> "at least" it's single-threaded
20:03:53 <johnstein> but this was back when the server didn't have as much BOOST
20:03:56 <johnstein> hah
20:04:31 <|amethyst> I should at some point load up my DF save of the fort of Idkatthir
20:04:35 <johnstein> I had several MeFighters playing DF. but since I always used the friendly newb pack and tilesets, I couldn't really follow when I watched them
20:04:52 <|amethyst> it's been several year (before beekeeping and pottery and vampires)
20:05:08 <|amethyst> s/year/years/
20:05:32 <hellmonk> oh, johnstein, can I get a hellcrawl update on cbro today? I think permabuffs are in a complete enough state now.
20:05:36 <johnstein> I need to check up again on ArchCrystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156319.0) last time I read he was getting close to getting his glass temple to breach the surface (from hell)
20:05:42 <johnstein> ??rebuild
20:05:42 <Sequell> rebuild[1/2]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://underhound.eu:81/rebuild/ http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rebuild/ http://crawl.xtahua.com/rebuild/ https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rebuild/ Bug |amethyst or Nap.Kin for CDO. Use your powers wisely.
20:10:04 <alexjurkiewicz> gammafunk: hm yeah, i guess the swiftness icon should be much brighter, thanks
20:10:04 <Sequell> alexjurkiewicz: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
20:14:28 <gammafunk> alexjurkiewicz: for your str commit, I didn't really look at the new numbers, but you should probably take a look after you correct that formula
20:14:35 <gammafunk> in the spreadsheet, that is
20:18:35 <Rotatell> Experimental (hellcrawl-cbro) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: v1.0-378-gc32ded8
20:23:34 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: done
20:23:40 <alexjurkiewicz> gammafunk: yeah, will do
20:23:45 <hellmonk> cool, thank you
20:51:48 <johnstein> what are my best debug strategies on windows? crawl.mpr?
20:52:25 <johnstein> (I'm using msys2, but I'm open to ideas)
20:53:54 <gammafunk> johnstein: gdb works just fine but everything is somewhat slow
20:54:09 <gammafunk> I would say though that for normal breakpoints and backtraces gdb would work
20:54:30 <gammafunk> certainly you can insert debugging statements but that is very error prone
20:54:40 <gammafunk> if you want a speedup, you might consider trying cygwin
20:54:52 <gammafunk> I wouldn't be surprised if compilation was faster
20:55:14 <gammafunk> and perhaps you'd also have good luck with a linux VM, if that's an option
20:55:23 <gammafunk> virtuabox is free and I think works on windows?
20:56:33 <|amethyst> has anyone tested the Linux build of Crawl in WS4L?
20:59:39 <gammafunk> what is ws4l?
20:59:41 <gammafunk> ws4l
20:59:41 <gammafunk> west side for life
20:59:42 <gammafunk> a common battle cry among west side hobos in the facebook game of hobowars.
21:02:37 <geekosaur> windows services for liux, aka bash on windows
21:02:37 <geekosaur> *linux
21:03:03 <gammafunk> oh is that the new linux service thing in windows?
21:03:32 <gammafunk> I have windows 10, but only in VM, so it wouldn't be a very good test
21:04:58 <MarvinPA> oh huh maybe i should try that, i'm using lubuntu in virtualbox on win10 at the moment
21:05:44 <MarvinPA> which i like better than cygwin and msys
21:06:02 <MarvinPA> (although i only ever used ancient msys, i think it's better and easier now?)
21:06:30 <gammafunk> well msys2 is certainly pretty easy to set up, but I feel it's pretty slow
21:06:45 <gammafunk> but I've been running it in a VM, which maybe makes that worse
21:06:59 <johnstein> I'm running it local and it seems slow
21:07:00 <gammafunk> I should run a VM in my windows VM for comparison :)
21:07:11 <MarvinPA> heh
21:07:16 <geekosaur> it's an emulation using windows functions, which will always be a bit slower; being in a vm as well won't help matters
21:07:49 <geekosaur> whereas WSL is a linux(-alike?) kernel running under the NT microkernel
21:07:49 <gammafunk> yeah, you could try just going through a VM, johnstein; maybe cygwin is a bit better, but msys2 is based on cygwin, so I'm not sure
21:08:14 <gammafunk> would be nice to hear experiences with that
21:08:22 <gammafunk> I should try it under the VM just to see if there are build issues
21:09:27 <johnstein> looks like I have a cygwin install on here
21:09:53 <johnstein> I don't remember installing it, but this computer is 10 years old and I bet this win7 install is 5+
21:10:03 <gammafunk> yeah I would use a current one
21:10:14 <gammafunk> if you want to be guinea pig for the WSL thing, that would be cool as well
21:10:31 <johnstein> don't I need win10 for that?
21:10:40 <geekosaur> yes
21:10:43 <gammafunk> oh, yes you would
21:10:54 <johnstein> I'm really behind on keeping this pc current
21:11:03 <gammafunk> welp, never mind on that then
21:11:21 <johnstein> maybe I can just use that as the excuse I need to buy a new computer with win10
21:15:17 <johnstein> yea msys2 is super slow. just doing a git status takes forever sometimes
21:15:34 <gammafunk> no idea if cygwin will be any better
21:15:39 <gammafunk> I think a VM might be a bit faster though
21:16:10 <gammafunk> I think those weird slowdowns or certain things msys2/cygwin are doing that might just be implemented in a way that isn't very fast
21:17:00 <gammafunk> linking takes absolutely forever, and yeah all sorts of filesystem operations seem slower than they should be
21:17:35 <johnstein> I don't really have the time or appetite to screw around with it. so I'll probably live with msys2 for a while
21:17:41 <johnstein> WSL sounds interesting though
21:18:43 <gammafunk> I'll probably try compiling using WSL at some point soon
21:18:48 <gammafunk> just to see if it works
21:21:19 <geekosaur> msys2 is using cygwin as its backend
21:22:05 <geekosaur> cygwin's emulation of unix is fairly thr=orough, but that means things are much slower because of all the edge cases that it tries to make behave as unix-like as possible
22:03:49 <advil> huh https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=853358
22:04:02 <advil> does 1kb still maintain the debian package?
22:04:10 <advil> or am I reading the dates wrong somehow?
22:06:43 <Floodkiller> finally, finished catching up on work after the last couple weeks swamping me.  time to work on gnolls some more
22:08:15 <geekosaur> huh
22:08:47 <advil> (also geekosaur that appears to be the same error we were just trying to diagnose in ##crawl)
22:09:06 <geekosaur> yeh, that was my "huh"
22:09:52 <|amethyst> advil:  guus is the Debian maintainer of crawl, but is probably in contact with KB
22:10:37 <|amethyst> or, I should say, is the DD uploader
22:11:05 <geekosaur> %git 10983cd
22:11:05 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1919-g10983cd: Fix the gcc build (possibly) 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 11+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/10983cdfa91c
22:11:20 <geekosaur> looks like the fix, and this is 0.19 stable being built
22:14:43 -!- mumra1 is now known as docpaisley
22:19:46 <|amethyst> I think the fix is
22:19:54 <|amethyst> %git 5e19f30c9
22:19:54 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.20-a0-570-g5e19f30: Include <functional> where needed (#10926) 10(6 months ago, 17 files, 23+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5e19f30c998b
22:20:40 <advil> sounds fairly plausible
22:22:18 <geekosaur> it was already #include-d
22:22:39 <geekosaur> my assumption based on the commit I pointed to is ghc < 7 used to mis-namespace functional
22:22:50 <geekosaur> and let us get away without a "using namespace std"
22:23:30 <geekosaur> but, I may be wrong about it, thought I saw that through the debian bug report
22:23:39 <geekosaur> as opposed to trawling local sources
22:24:24 <advil> before |amethyst's commit it wasn't included, including in describe.h
22:24:41 <advil> (looks like arch should have a more up to date version though)
22:25:36 <|amethyst> geekosaur:  yeah, that's it exactly