00:04:16 <alexjurkiewicz> another approach is to increase the multiplier of multiplicative brands
00:04:33 <alexjurkiewicz> it would have essentially no effect on low damage weapons
00:09:18 <gammafunk> idgi, what problem are we trying to solve
00:09:35 <gammafunk> this feels like a solution in search of a problem
00:11:43 <hellmonk> the (arguable) problem is elec op
00:12:57 <gammafunk> elec is pretty strong, but this is mitigated by it being harder to get
00:13:11 <gammafunk> I think any reasonable change would more likely be a fairly subtle nerf to elec damage
00:13:18 <gammafunk> rather than a global buff to non-elec damage
00:13:45 <hellmonk> yeah, that was the original suggestion (elec was already nerfed in hellcrawl once and the suggestion is to nerf it further)
00:14:05 <hellmonk> I don't intend to global damage buff weapon brands
00:14:14 <alexjurkiewicz> +1
00:15:30 <hellmonk> guess you could also mitigate the early elec dagger/whip thing by making elec rarer on those weapons, tbh I havent looked all that closely on the weapon brand code
00:17:02 <gammafunk> even if you nerf elect to make it not much different from freezign/flaming, you run into the basic issue that you'd still prefer it to freezing/flaming
00:17:07 <gammafunk> because monsters tend not to resist elec
00:17:34 <alexjurkiewicz> i don't want it to be the same as flaming/freezing
00:17:39 <gammafunk> you're sort of runnig into the problem of what do you want the weapond brands to do
00:17:50 <alexjurkiewicz> I want elec to be clearly better on daggers, and not clearly better on great maces
00:18:11 <hellmonk> yes, the other thing about brands is that there's a lot of redundancy in terms of effect
00:18:21 <hellmonk> bc most of them are just a variation on "more damage"
00:18:37 <gammafunk> I think "good on fast weapons" is probably a well-covered thing wrt brands
00:19:17 <gammafunk> you have two brands (pain/drain) that are already nice on fast weapons, venom which is nice early on
00:19:17 <gammafunk> so I'm not sure that's a good niche for elec to go into
00:19:33 <gammafunk> yeah, brands are plentiful in crawl but meaningful niches maybe not so much
00:19:54 <hellmonk> hence why "rework weapon brands" is somewhere way down my list
00:20:09 <hellmonk> not super urgent, but would be nice for more distinction
00:20:15 <gammafunk> above or below the ganja spider?
00:20:27 <alexjurkiewicz> i like: elec, drain, pain, chaos, flaming/freezing
00:20:47 <hellmonk> gotta be below, ganjaspider coming right after diesel robin
00:21:01 <alexjurkiewicz> elec is just "flat damage", drain has an effect (which could be mor noticeable), pain has unique damage scaling, chaos is chaos, flaming/freezing seem fine but could be combined somehow
00:25:58 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: one weird thing about the spell school changes (eg searing ray becoming fire) is that the spell damage type didn't change. But for unspoiled players it's not clear why flame tongue can't hurt crimson imp but searing ray can
00:26:43 <hellmonk> searing ray actually does magma damage
00:26:51 <alexjurkiewicz> TIL
00:26:59 <hellmonk> I think I updated the description, probably could be clearer
00:27:13 <alexjurkiewicz> you did, my bad
00:27:22 <hellmonk> one thing I havent fixed is the dazzling spray targeter, which will still happily target fire immune unblindable enemies
00:27:31 <hellmonk> really should get around to that
00:28:37 <alexjurkiewicz> i just went downstairs and natasha and down and duvessa are in LoS -- is this a bug?
00:28:49 <hellmonk> are they within 3 tiles of you
00:28:58 <alexjurkiewicz> nope
00:29:01 <hellmonk> you don't get full los after D:1, just 3 tiles of space
00:29:06 <hellmonk> until the end of D
00:29:41 <hellmonk> kind of opaque, prob should make the mechanic cleaner, but it seemed like an ok balance between not completely fucking you over and generating some "fun" situations
00:29:41 <alexjurkiewicz> cool
02:37:27 <alexjurkiewicz> !tell hellmonk jiyva jelly spawning seems really high when you get an early altar in hellcrawl
02:37:28 <Sequell> alexjurkiewicz: OK, I'll let hellmonk know.
02:52:06 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-150-gc243083
03:59:15 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:36:12 <TZer0> !messages
04:36:12 <Sequell> No messages for TZer0.
12:19:48 <|amethyst> is FIRE_RETURNING (fire_order += return) actually used?
12:21:39 <|amethyst> also, why does the default fire_order contain   javelin / tomahawk / stone / rock / net   instead of something like   rock, javelin, tomahawk, stone, net ?
13:20:52 <johnny0> oh man, does local tiles just screen scrape the
13:22:55 -!- Tarara is now known as Taraiph
13:23:10 <johnny0> oops, oh well -- i have a force_more which triggers when clicking on the little spells icon in the lower right
13:26:18 <espais> notice gamma isn't online, but has anybody here setup beem before?
13:29:03 <espais> i'm not really clear on how to actually run it after i've installed it (following the guide for install)
13:31:59 <espais> ah, got it
13:32:04 <espais> i was stupid and installed it as sudo
13:32:07 <espais> its just a python script
13:43:34 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:49:35 <espais> geekosaur: you ever run beem?
13:49:57 <geekosaur> nope, sorry
13:51:51 <espais> poot
13:52:24 <espais> !tell gammafunk trying to run beem but it seems to be hanging on 'Connecting to IRC server,' any thoughts on what might be happening?
13:52:24 <Sequell> espais: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
14:01:25 <espais> !tell gammafunk nothing seems to be amiss in the debug messages...the handshake to my webtiles server seems to work, just no beem appears in my game (either listed as 'watch_player' or otherwise)
14:01:25 <Sequell> espais: OK, I'll let gammafunk know.
14:01:39 <geekosaur> hm, I think you mentioned something about a firewall at some point?
14:01:46 <geekosaur> many of them block irc
14:06:43 <espais> yes, but
14:06:49 <espais> i'm running beem on a raspberry pi at home
14:07:02 <espais> and pointed it towards my server
14:09:55 <espais> i *thought* if i ran it on a different server it would just be treated as a normal spectator?
14:16:48 <Cheibriados> Game forced exit on stairway (recovered with slight rollback) 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11164 by stoneychips
14:19:19 <|amethyst> !tell checkers thoughts on #11164 ?  is there a reason that cache directory wouldn't be there?
14:19:19 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let checkers know.
14:25:10 <|amethyst> hm, now that I'm looking at it
14:31:14 <|amethyst> that would only die if die_on_fail is true, and it's passed as false the two places where we take a read lock
14:32:47 <|amethyst> so it must be the place where we take a write lock, meaning the problem must be one of the directories along the way, not the .lk file itself (which would be created by this very call)
14:33:49 <|amethyst> also, it's kind of weird that removing those .lk files would cause locking to fail, but since we pass die_on_fail = false, it would keep right on going without having a lock
14:33:59 <|amethyst> s/locking/read locking/
14:36:07 <|amethyst> also also, if a file has already been locked for reading with file_lock, and then someone tries to lock it for writing, it looks like the file gets truncated, then the write lock fails ??
14:38:19 <|amethyst> since it does an fopen with mode "wb", and F_SETLK{,W} is purely advisory
14:41:39 <|amethyst> I guess truncating the file doesn't affect processes *currently* using it, but still, if another process tries reading before the write lock succeeds, they would get an empty file
14:42:48 <|amethyst> the write lock doesn't fail, it just blocks
14:42:54 <|amethyst> but the file has already been truncated before it gets that far
14:43:05 <|amethyst> need geekosaur to rewrite our file locking
14:43:37 <geekosaur> that depends on how they are using it :)
14:43:54 <|amethyst> oh
14:44:06 <|amethyst> I guess we are locking an empty .lk file
14:44:07 <geekosaur> this can be a good way to end up with a sparse file with existing stuff writing at the old size/their current fle position
14:44:07 <|amethyst> so it's fine
14:44:42 <|amethyst> as long as no one tries using file_lock on a real file...
14:44:59 <geekosaur> famous last words crawlcode edition
14:45:14 <|amethyst> oh, I guess we are smart enough to treat "r+" as meaning a write lock
14:47:40 <|amethyst> file_lock says // Locks a named file (usually an empty lock file), creating it if necessary.
14:48:16 <|amethyst> that last part is a lie if you try to take a read lock
14:49:26 <|amethyst> unless you use mode "a" or "ab"...
14:49:41 <|amethyst> that opens for append, but does take a read lock.  Not that you can actually read
14:50:17 <|amethyst> however, if you use mode "ab+", that takes a write lock.  It does allow you to read though
14:50:21 <|amethyst> :(((
14:51:35 <gammafunk> do we roll our own file locking?
14:51:46 <|amethyst> hey, what do you know, when we lk_open the milestone file for appending, we do it with "a" so are only taking a read lock
14:51:56 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  we have our own wrappers around whatever the OS provides
14:51:57 <gammafunk> instead of trying to use a bunch of platform-specific stuff that would have to be conditioned on the platform
14:52:47 <|amethyst> lock_file in syscalls.cc is what we ultimately use, which does one thing on Windows and another elsewhere
14:53:13 <|amethyst> but things like "open this file locked" we roll ourselves
14:53:46 <|amethyst> (in this case function lk_open in files.cc, which is itself wrapped by the RAII class file_lock, also in files.cc)
15:04:46 <espais> neat, gamma's here!
15:04:48 <espais> hi gamma
15:14:56 <espais> gammafunk: do you have a minute to troubleshoot a beem install?
15:19:10 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/582 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/582
15:19:10 <Cheibriados> 03argonaut02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/582 * 0.21-a0-110-g765d643: Add a note when an unrand is first seen. After they were changed to being identified the notes were bypassed. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/765d643894cc
15:19:57 <gammafunk> espais: I saw your messages. It sounds like you may have the irc configured incorrectly?
15:20:01 <gammafunk> *irc section
15:20:26 <espais> unsure...
15:20:27 <gammafunk> not sure how you have it configured though
15:20:37 <espais> one sec, i'll pastebin it
15:20:44 <gammafunk> well you'd probably need to paste it wouthout passwords shown, yeah
15:21:05 <espais> well, for IRC do i need to have a registered nick?
15:21:17 <espais> the only username/pw that i configured was for a beem login to my webtiles server
15:21:55 <gammafunk> you don't, no
15:22:13 <gammafunk> if freenode is blocking your IP and wants you to use SASL you would need that though
15:22:21 <gammafunk> and you'd need to configure it to use ssl for irc
15:22:29 <gammafunk> but debug mode should have a message indicating that
15:22:51 <espais> i was seeing the PING/PONG messages
15:23:03 <gammafunk> if you intend on running that instance a long time it's probably a good idea to register a nick though
15:23:22 <gammafunk> since if someone decides to use the one you chose someday
15:24:25 <espais> true, true
15:24:25 <espais> just installing pastebinit on my pi, one sec
15:25:20 <espais> there we go
15:25:21 <espais> http://paste.debian.net/978681/
15:25:29 <espais> so only thing i changed
15:25:32 <espais> IP address of my server
15:25:50 <espais> created a beem account on webtiles
15:26:03 <espais> and tried to force beem to watch my game but never showed up
15:26:34 <espais> so the server itself only allows port 80, but if i run beem outside of that network it just shows up as a normal chat user right?
15:36:49 <gammafunk> espais: I think beem gives a message if irc setup was successful, let me check
15:38:17 <gammafunk> hrm, I guess it doesn't
15:38:20 <gammafunk> but in debug mode...
15:39:30 <gammafunk> espais: when you enable debug mode, do you see all the MOTD output from freenode?
15:39:35 <gammafunk> debug = 10
15:40:01 <espais> yea
15:40:02 <espais> i see it connecting to wilhelm.freenode
15:40:13 <gammafunk> yeah, if it gets through MOTD and giving you +i
15:40:18 <gammafunk> then it should be doing fine for irc
15:40:20 <espais> yep, got +i
15:40:56 <gammafunk> well
15:41:00 <gammafunk> you don't have autowatch enabled
15:41:15 <gammafunk> so unless you have a beem subscribed account in the user db
15:41:25 <gammafunk> it will never join anything unless you're in single user mode
15:42:27 <gammafunk> espais: it sounds like it's able to connect to your webtiles ok, since it's getting to the IRC connection ok
15:42:40 <espais> oops, missed that flag
15:42:46 <espais> so turned on autowatch and relaunched
15:42:53 <espais> anything i have to do to get beem to pop in?
15:42:54 <gammafunk> you'll have to have spectators
15:42:59 <gammafunk> you could lower the count
15:43:03 <gammafunk> but default is 3
15:43:11 <gammafunk> not sure how you'd like it to operate
15:43:34 <gammafunk> when testing I just open up my watch url in another tab
15:43:44 <espais> neat, just popped in
15:44:01 <espais> thanks!
15:44:10 <gammafunk> yeah, it was designed with official servers in mind, so if your use case is a bit different
15:44:12 <gammafunk> you may have to futz with it
15:44:19 <espais> not sure how active beem is in terms of your git repo...but i didn't really get any of that from teh documentation ;)
15:44:34 <gammafunk> active beem is?
15:44:49 <gammafunk> I mean it's developed, I fix bugs as I find them
15:44:50 <espais> in terms of other people installing it
15:45:14 <gammafunk> yeah I don't do extensive installation docs or anything
15:45:14 <gammafunk> just look at the sequell docs :)
15:45:14 <espais> lol
15:45:17 <gammafunk> that's a way more complicated thing and it barely has any install instructions
15:45:45 <gammafunk> just try to imagine that you made a very specific bot to do one task
15:45:59 <gammafunk> now imagine trying to write some user-friendly guide with arbitrary users in mind
15:46:30 <espais> that's why i wondered how many people outside of the official channels try to setup a dgamelaunch/beem install
15:46:31 <gammafunk> that's not very fun and not very productive, so yeah people just put these things up there and fix bugs in the thing
15:46:51 <gammafunk> I mean, you've seen the dgamelaunch instructions I'm sure
15:47:04 <gammafunk> I would not characterize those as user-friendly either =p
15:48:11 <espais> hehe
15:48:15 <espais> yea
15:48:53 <gammafunk> even more to the point, I don't want to give people easy instructions to encourage them to set up trolling instances of the thing
15:49:18 <espais> ah
15:49:25 <espais> ok so one of those odd poitns you mentioned
15:49:37 <espais> i just (surprisingly) finished a 15 rune win on my server
15:49:49 <espais> but when i do !lg erik (to my local beem) it picks up a random user from 2014?
15:50:04 <espais> ls
15:50:26 <gammafunk> you understand that beem is a relay to sequell, right?
15:50:27 <gammafunk> beem is not sequell itself
15:50:48 <gammafunk> if you want to track your own stats, you're going to need to run your own sequell
15:51:22 <gammafunk> beem is just an irc relay to sequell, cheibriados, gretell
15:51:28 <espais> oooh
15:51:30 <espais> i see
15:51:36 <gammafunk> the irc bots; if you want to relay to your own bots, you can tell it to do that
15:51:40 <gammafunk> but beem cannot run those bots
15:51:46 <gammafunk> it's just a relay
15:51:48 <espais> so i'd need to run my own instances
15:52:00 <espais> yea i guess i didn't understand the whole ecosystem
15:52:09 <gammafunk> you didn't read the beem docs :)
15:52:15 <espais> for some odd reason i was thinking when i queried beem it also relayed the location of the server
15:52:36 <gammafunk> well, that wouldn't help sequell even if it did
15:52:44 <gammafunk> sequell is the stats bot, it pulls stats from servers
15:53:15 <gammafunk> we can't let any arbitrary person put their data in sequell, right?
15:54:52 <espais> well
15:54:54 <espais> i suppose not
15:55:58 <espais> so the chei/gretell bots
15:56:12 <gammafunk> ??gretell
15:56:12 <Sequell> Gretell[1/1]: The {CDO} announcement bot, which uses @ as a prefix. Also responds to @?? monster info queries.
15:56:15 <gammafunk> ??cheibriados
15:56:15 <Sequell> [1/13]: The Slow God! Gives piety for killing things faster than you, and slows you down as you gain piety. Chei increases your movement delay by 2+piety/20 (capped at 10) and boosts all your stats by piety/10 - 1 (capped at 15).
15:56:19 <gammafunk> ??cheibriados[2
15:56:19 <Sequell> [2/13]: Chei slows digestion (50% hunger), halves effect of poison and sickness. Abilities: {Bend Time} -- slows down adjacent monsters. {Temporal Distortion} -- lets monsters move towards you. {Slouch} -- damage to fast stuff in LOS. {Step from Time} -- lets monsters go away.
15:56:23 <gammafunk> there's an entry about it
15:56:27 <|amethyst> %source
15:56:27 <Cheibriados> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=cheibriados.git https://github.com/crawl/monster/ https://github.com/crawl/crawl/
15:56:32 <gammafunk> nice
15:56:49 <espais> chei is a crawl-dev bot?
15:57:22 <|amethyst> also sits in ##crawl, but doesn't make as many announcements there
15:58:40 <espais> so i'm guessing all i'd really need to do is run my own sequell
15:59:13 <|amethyst> the %??monster  queries come from a program called 'monster', which is part of the Crawl source code.  Not sure how beem handles those queries, by calling monster or by talking to bots
15:59:46 <gammafunk> beem is only an irc relay
15:59:52 <|amethyst> ah
16:00:09 <gammafunk> all it knows how to do is take requests from webtiles and feed them to specific kinds of bot (sequell, gretell, cheibriados)
16:00:12 <gammafunk> by a command prefix
16:00:34 <|amethyst> ah
16:02:35 <espais> ok, so for my understanding then just to make sure i 'get' the bot ecosystem
16:02:39 <espais> beem relays
16:02:42 <espais> sequell provides statistics
16:03:01 <espais> chei handles....dev comments and gretell provides monster info?
16:03:12 <gammafunk> dev comments?
16:03:14 <gammafunk> no
16:03:34 <|amethyst> chei lists new commits and answers %git queries and a few others
16:03:47 <espais> dev-related is more what i meant
16:03:53 <|amethyst> it also provides monster info, but that isn't updated very frequently
16:04:08 <espais> i have noticed that a lot of the monster info is out of date tbh
16:04:13 <gammafunk> sequell provides game stats (!lg/!lm), learndb (?? prefix queries that lookup learndb), and "sequellese" commands that can do programmatic things (mostly with game data)
16:04:16 <|amethyst> @??-version
16:04:16 <Gretell> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.21-a0-150-gc243083
16:04:19 <|amethyst> %git
16:04:19 <Cheibriados> 07gammafunk02 * 0.21-a0-150-gc243083: Update the lightning rod description 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c243083e7360
16:04:51 <gammafunk> interfaces with monster and does the things that |amethyst mentioned
16:05:00 <gammafunk> at least I assume it has monster interface built-in
16:05:11 <gammafunk> in addition to the git functionality
16:05:19 <gammafunk> gretell is simply a monster interface
16:05:47 <gammafunk> anyhow you really want to think in terms of "what do I want my server to do out of the things I see current servers doing"
16:06:02 <gammafunk> as opposed to something like "what all bots could I run"
16:06:02 <espais> exactly
16:06:03 <espais> so things i care about are last game stats
16:06:05 <espais> and monster info
16:06:18 <gammafunk> are you going to fork crawl so that monster info is going to change?
16:06:26 <gammafunk> if not, then you can simply relay to chei/gretell
16:06:30 <gammafunk> the official instances
16:06:37 <espais> probably not going to fork, at least not presently
16:06:42 <gammafunk> if you're running a fork, maybe you need to run your own instances
16:06:56 <espais> so then all i really need is sequell
16:07:02 <gammafunk> sequell is also learndb
16:07:21 <gammafunk> however you could add ?? to prefix to official sequell I guess
16:07:53 <gammafunk> but that might be weird for some commands since sequell learndb stuff would be using your sequell
16:08:03 <gammafunk> but I guess that might be the best way
16:08:17 <gammafunk> have ?? go relay to official sequell in beem
16:08:24 <gammafunk> and have all other sequell stuff go to your sequell instance
16:08:55 <gammafunk> see the bots section of the config for adding new bots/prefixes
16:10:10 <espais> hmm
16:10:21 <espais> so i'd create a new bot in that section for my local sequell instance?
16:12:32 <gammafunk> with all the prefixes that should go to that one, yeah
16:12:36 <gammafunk> you'd want to modify the prefixes
16:12:44 <gammafunk> and then for the official sequell bot section
16:12:53 <gammafunk> make it only take the prefixes associated with learndb
16:13:11 <espais> makes sense
16:13:14 <espais> neat, thanks!
16:13:52 <gammafunk> '^\?\?[^?]', '\?\?\?? *$', '^[qr]\?\?', '^\?/'
16:13:56 <gammafunk> are the learndb ones
16:13:59 <gammafunk> last one is search
16:14:21 <|amethyst> what about things like !readall?
16:14:38 <|amethyst> or !learn
16:14:42 <gammafunk> yeah
16:14:46 <gammafunk> those would be funky
16:14:52 <gammafunk> you could make one-off entries for those though
16:14:57 <gammafunk> probably the best solution
16:15:02 <gammafunk> otherwise I'm not sure
16:15:13 <gammafunk> you can't really cron updates from official learndb can you?
16:15:15 <gammafunk> pull in changes?
16:15:22 <gammafunk> if you could, I suppose that would be ok, but it seems a bad idea
16:15:47 <espais> why bad?
16:16:02 <gammafunk> well how are you planning to interact with this custom sequell?
16:16:10 <gammafunk> will it have public irc access?
16:16:14 <gammafunk> can people edit it
16:16:30 <gammafunk> if it's to be read-only, then I suppose pulling from official learndb would be cleaner
16:16:40 <gammafunk> also keep in mind, another problem with your custom sequell
16:16:43 <gammafunk> ...hrm
16:16:46 <gammafunk> I guess
16:16:57 <gammafunk> you could configure it to pull from all official servers plus your server
16:17:05 <gammafunk> I was going to say it won't have data for games not on yours erver
16:17:18 <gammafunk> but you could have your sequell pull from official servers with no problem
16:17:28 <gammafunk> just something you're going to need to do and that's a lot of potential bandwidth
16:17:45 <gammafunk> or you'd just have to make do with stats for only your server's games
16:18:19 <gammafunk> I have a feeling espais may be undertaking a setup odyssey that's not quite worth the effort :)
16:18:31 <gammafunk> but maybe it is
16:20:14 -!- Amnesiac__ is now known as Amnesiac
16:20:58 <espais> well, dgamelaunch was an odyssey in and of itself ;)
16:21:26 <espais> we'll see how it goes...next thing i want to do is stress test this server
16:21:38 <espais> its running on a VM instance right now so i'm not sure how much load it can handle
16:23:45 <gammafunk> yeah dgamelaunch is probably scarier than the bots
16:23:54 <gammafunk> although setting up sequell involes a fair bit of effort
19:25:42 -!- yesno_ is now known as yesno
20:33:02 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf
20:41:00 -!- mngr__ is now known as daiy
22:31:41 -!- mngr_ is now known as daiy
23:11:37 -!- Bammboobies is now known as Bammboo
23:11:58 -!- Menche_ is now known as Menche
23:22:28 -!- mngr_ is now known as daiy
23:25:04 -!- jooles is now known as Guest32526
23:29:16 -!- Guest32526 is now known as jooles