00:59:02 <bentinata> Hi all, where does randart generation code reside?
01:09:20 <johnstein> !function make_item_unrandart
01:09:22 <Sequell> Can't find make_item_unrandart.
01:09:38 <johnstein> !source make_item_unrandart
01:09:39 <Sequell> Can't find make_item_unrandart.
01:09:45 <johnstein> !source artefact.cc
01:09:45 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc
01:09:47 <johnstein> maybe that?
01:14:53 <minmay> !source make_item_randart
01:14:54 <Sequell> Can't find make_item_randart.
01:14:59 <minmay> really
01:15:09 <minmay> !source artefact.cc:1614
01:15:09 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc#L1614
01:15:14 <minmay> start at that function imo
01:28:38 <johnstein> oops, yea 'randart' not 'UN'randart. doh
01:34:14 <minmay> hey it's only two letters difference
01:34:27 <Ultraviolent4> idk if this has been picked up on but evocable ivis cloaks now give you a warning when you enchant them
01:34:40 <Ultraviolent4> and if you drop them
01:35:00 <Ultraviolent4> maybe if youre trying to interact with them while not invis
01:56:15 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-140-g479285b
02:13:27 <bentinata> I suppose that end up in makeitem.cc?
02:16:06 <alexjurkiewicz> sounds about right
02:20:06 <bentinata> What is this item_level variable that get passed around?
02:21:02 <gammafunk> it's the quality of the item
02:21:24 <gammafunk> an integer (iirc) that's used to help determine how good a randomly generated item will be
02:21:46 <gammafunk> it's actually probably just an enum
02:22:39 <gammafunk> see the item_spec enum
02:24:10 <bentinata> Oh, I thought there's a general function that determine if an item is a randart or not.
02:24:30 <bentinata> Turn out there's multiple helper function for that.
02:30:17 <bentinata> makeitem.cc:206, if item_level is enum with mostly negative int. Why is it compared with 2?
02:40:37 <gammafunk> bentinata: that represents an item of barely above D:1 quality
02:41:26 <gammafunk> negative vaults correspond to some specific item classes and positive values represent a quality value used for all sort of item-type-specific quality derivations
02:41:49 <gammafunk> starting abyss uses an item_level of 0, for instance
02:42:35 <gammafunk> I think > 2 might be trying to prevent artefact generation above d:3
02:43:20 <gammafunk> or that might mean above d:4, I guess, if 0 is d:1
02:43:49 <gammafunk> yeah
02:43:52 <gammafunk> int items_levels = env.absdepth0;
02:43:58 <gammafunk> in _builder_items()
02:44:14 <gammafunk> in vaults this value is increased 50%
02:44:21 <gammafunk> but otherwise the item_level will be absdepth
02:44:35 <gammafunk> so that 2 means you have to have absdepth of 3 to have a chance to make a randart
02:44:51 <gammafunk> it should done as a #define or something
02:45:20 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
02:46:44 <bentinata> How do abyss depth work on branch?
02:47:00 <bentinata> It always increase if you take downstair, right?
02:48:37 <gammafunk> absdepth starts at 0, increases as you go down
02:49:08 <gammafunk> and various branches have a starting absdepth that begins at a higher value than their placement in the dungeon would suggest, since the branch is harder
02:49:11 <gammafunk> ??absdepth
02:49:11 <Sequell> absdepth[1/1]: Dungeon: 0, Temple: 5, Orc: 10, Elf: 15, Lair: 10, Swamp/Shoals/Snake/Spider: 15, Slime: 17, Vaults: 19, Crypt: 19, Tomb: 21, Depths: 22, Hell: 27, Dis/Geh/Coc/Tar: 28, Zot: 27, Abyss: 24, Pan: 24, Zig: 27, Lab: 15, Bazaar/Trove: 18, Sewer: 4, Ossuary: 6, Bailey: 11, IceCv: 15, Volcano: 14, Wizlab: 24
02:49:38 <gammafunk> those also may not be fully up to date
02:50:11 <bentinata> What's "zig"?
02:50:36 <bentinata> Oh, ziggurat.
02:52:10 <bentinata> So, at deepest realm of Zot, there's only 4%? That's a low chance.
02:52:52 <bentinata> .04925 actually, more like 5%. Still slim chance.
02:54:16 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.21-a0-140-g479285b
02:55:03 <gammafunk> well consider that lots of items are generated
02:55:06 <gammafunk> on a given level
02:55:20 <gammafunk> so you want it to be a slim chance
02:55:33 <gammafunk> otherwise artefacts would not be rare special things, but pretty common things
02:56:05 <bentinata> Haha, I think I'll lower that to 101 + item_level * 3 / 2500, or 2000.
02:56:13 <bentinata> I'm pretty bad at this game.
02:56:33 <bentinata> Thanks though, gammafunk, minmay, and johnstein.
03:11:45 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.21-a0-140-g479285b (34)
08:29:19 <Rast> so, thoughts about giving partial xp just for seeing a monster?
08:29:27 <Rast> sil style
08:29:43 <Rast> plus: enables pacifist style again
08:30:11 <Rast> minus: might be too generous
08:45:59 <|amethyst> we never really had pacifist style, we had "kill monsters in a differently-themed way" style :P
08:46:52 <|amethyst> I made a patch to give Dith followers XP for seeing monsters
08:46:57 <|amethyst> no one expressed much interest
08:47:12 <|amethyst> %git halftone
08:47:12 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-2392-g6838c7c: Give XP to Dith worshippers on seeing a monster (dpeg) 10(3 years, 6 months ago, 2 files, 15+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6838c7c8ceaf
08:47:36 <|amethyst> (no one except dpeg, whose idea it way)
08:47:41 <|amethyst> s/way/was/
08:49:59 <bgiannan> i don't get dpeg's commit, why give xp for seeing a monster for the first time ?
08:50:28 <bgiannan> oh that's an old commit
08:54:06 <bgiannan> i should read more than 3 message up before talking
08:58:21 <Rast> |amethyst, I may be missing something, but in that patch did killing the monster still give full exp?
08:58:27 <Rast> for 133% total?
09:01:04 <|amethyst> Rast:  no, because it sets mons->xp_awarded
09:01:20 <Rast> ahok
09:01:21 <|amethyst> Rast:  (which no longer exists)
09:01:57 <Rast> hmm, what if ely gave half xp just for seeing the monster
09:02:13 <Rast> you could get the other half by pacifying or killing it
13:02:05 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:04:58 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.21-a0-140-g479285b (34)
13:11:51 <amalloy> |amethyst: dcss-ca tried a number of variations on how XP is awarded; i wonder how popular they were. personally i love the idea of getting xp for seeing monsters, or for reaching the downstair
14:56:52 <gammafunk> amalloy: I think the problem with many of those forms of piety is that they don't differ from each other in practice
14:57:24 <gammafunk> exploratin piety and piety for seeing monsters would be very very similar to each other, and exploration piety already ends up being extremely similar to piety for killing monsters
14:57:56 <gammafunk> it has a few quirks that I don't think actually add anything to gameplay vs. piety for killing monsters
14:58:19 <gammafunk> like going down stairs to see a bunch of empty squares and getting a gift
14:58:20 <amalloy> gammafunk: i was talking about xp, as |amethyst was
14:58:43 <gammafunk> oh, yeah, well the same problem would apply to XP for the most part, wouldn't it?
14:59:13 <gammafunk> I guess you not if XP and piety were both awarded for spotting/exploration
14:59:42 <gammafunk> but putting that aside, it would make fighting monsters more like fighting summons
15:00:04 <gammafunk> if monsters dropped critical equipment regularly, it might be different
15:00:58 <gammafunk> cogmind gives you "XP" as you find stairs, but that game has extensive item destruction and monsters frequently drop items you'd like
15:01:12 <amalloy> the ideal i have in mind, which is probably hard to get right, is that you just reward players for traversing the dungeon, which is the real goal: monsters are just obstacles, which you can get through by killing, avoiding, or whatever
15:01:13 <gammafunk> dcss monsters have useful items far less frequently
15:02:05 <gammafunk> yeah, it's possible, but probably dcss would proably need to have far fewer monsters
15:11:40 <MarvinPA> for the old implementation that was linked, it was specifically tying it to dith that people (or at least me) were mostly against at the time i think
15:12:17 <MarvinPA> seems like it could be good with a god designed entirely around it, perhaps
17:00:20 <Yermak> If I understand it right, mutations that are suppressed only partially shown in brown.
17:00:34 <Yermak> Bone plates mutation is shown in brown too
17:00:51 <Yermak> But now it only gives SH, without AC
17:10:42 <Cheibriados> Bone plates mutation is displayed incorrectly in forms as if supressed partially 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11155 by Yermak
18:03:13 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.21-a0-140-g479285b (34)
19:57:03 <alexjurkiewicz> does dcss really have many ways to play that don't rely on killing monsters?
19:57:24 <alexjurkiewicz> even if you gave 0% xp for monsters and 100% for downstairs
20:17:48 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/579 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/579
20:17:48 <Cheibriados> 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/579 * 0.21-a0-138-g615ff68: Reduce number of muts removed by potion of mutation 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/615ff68eaca8
20:22:04 <alexjurkiewicz> !seen hellmonk
20:22:05 <Sequell> I last saw hellmonk at Wed Jul 19 06:04:12 2017 UTC (18h 17m 52s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Page closed'.
20:22:19 <alexjurkiewicz> !source player::skill
20:22:19 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#L5688
20:48:14 <Ultraviolent4> prompts are also bugged for cursed things if you do something in between
20:48:28 <Ultraviolent4> so to swap into a cursed ring it will prompt if you want to put it on
20:48:42 <Ultraviolent4> then it will remove the ring youre swapping with and prompt you again
20:53:05 <Floodkiller> so far, most feedback on Gnolls seems to be a request for more stats (in multiple formats)
20:54:37 <alexjurkiewicz> !tell hellmonk qazlal fr, make qazlal_element_adapt fire much more often
20:54:37 <Sequell> alexjurkiewicz: OK, I'll let hellmonk know.
20:57:02 <gammafunk> you could probably increase those stats somewhat, but I'm not sure that it would help make the species "fun" for the people who aren't enjoying them
21:05:57 <advil> huh, those qaz buffs would be way too strong in regular crawl, I guess it's needed to compensate for no stairdancing?
21:06:04 <advil> (in hellcrawl)
21:10:03 <amalloy> Floodkiller: imo respond by giving Gn a fourth stat, in addition to str/int/dex
21:10:20 <Floodkiller> sanity
21:10:22 <Floodkiller> ?
21:10:50 <n1> give Gn +5 everything but also force them to train every skill at once
21:11:02 <gammafunk> nethack has like 6 other stats
21:11:15 <gammafunk> constitution wisdom ...uh
21:11:16 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
21:11:17 <wheals_> give Gn 20 Charisma
21:11:22 <geekosaur> ^
21:11:27 <gammafunk> maybe it's only a 3 others
21:11:29 <geekosaur> (the missing stat. D&D)
21:17:56 <minmay> i think Gn probably needs more than +3 due to how diminishing the returns on skill points are
21:18:05 <minmay> maybe more than +5
21:18:12 <minmay> well, "needs" for its premise to work well
21:20:39 <Floodkiller> I was also thinking that maybe raising the apts could work, but maybe a middle ground so it doesn't go higher than +5?
21:26:03 -!- jfcaron_ is now known as jfcaron
21:27:48 <Yermak> Wu Jian Council: If you try to jump over a mosnter, but landing spot is occupied by invisible monster, you get this info without spending any turns. This seems wrong.
21:29:48 <gammafunk> Floodkiller: what do you mean by doesn't go higher than +5?
21:30:59 <Floodkiller> as in, increase stats to a reasonable amount that aptitude isn't raised higher than 5 as minmay suggests
21:38:08 <alexjurkiewicz> advil: yeah the inability to stairdance hurts qaz a lot more than other gods, especially because you have fewer escape consumables too
21:38:26 <alexjurkiewicz> (because you are entering fewer floors)
21:38:49 <alexjurkiewicz> I think qaz still needs work though. Maybe reducing the piety gain
21:38:57 <alexjurkiewicz> *piety loss over time
21:39:25 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: you have a fan https://crawl.project357.org/watch/hellmonkstheworst
21:39:40 <hellmonk> thats ultraviolent's gnoll challenge account
21:39:40 <Sequell> hellmonk: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:40:08 <hellmonk> he asked me to suggest a name for his gnoll challenge and I suggested whataburgerchickenbiscuit, he didn't like that idea i guess
21:41:02 <hellmonk> his new strat is basically what my new strat is going to be it looks like, just go heavy armor + big shield since it is basically impossible to ever get defenses if you dont do that
21:41:28 <hellmonk> unless you go like ozos + dform I guess
21:42:56 <alexjurkiewicz> also i want you to know that writing your changelog for you is a lot of work, AND you never asked me to update the cpo build so I had to remember myself
21:43:12 <hellmonk> sry, mb
21:43:25 <hellmonk> I was going to write a full one eventually
21:43:29 <alexjurkiewicz> it's ok
21:43:51 <hellmonk> also the qaz shield numbers are wrong, max only changes from 8 to 20
21:43:54 <hellmonk> iirc
21:44:30 <advil> til (or I'm doing something stupid, but I've tested this like 3 ways now) that a Mf going from xl 15 to 16 gains enough xp to train polearms from 0 to 27
21:44:51 <alexjurkiewicz> oh, the SH numbers are halved aren't they
21:45:32 <alexjurkiewicz> I can't see how it would be max sh of 20 though
21:45:47 <alexjurkiewicz> piety_breakpoint(5) = 120
21:48:30 <hellmonk> isnt it actually 160?
21:48:52 <hellmonk> piety_breakpoint(5) is when you hit 6* iirc
21:49:06 <alexjurkiewicz> !source piety_breakpoint
21:49:06 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc#L4272
21:49:38 <alexjurkiewicz> you are correct
21:50:08 <hellmonk> fr: buff qazlal shield in big boy crawl too
21:53:24 <advil> does it need a buff?
21:54:19 <hellmonk> well I feel like 8 sh isnt really that great considering you have to worship qaz
21:54:26 <advil> sh 8 seems ok to me
21:54:39 <advil> it's additive so if you want more, use a shield
21:56:43 <hellmonk> well qaz is a pretty weak/niche pick in general, obviously you could go other directions with it too but I think buffing qaz would be nice
21:58:55 <advil> I guess I have it chalked up as a challenge god
21:59:00 <advil> sh 20 seems like a gigantic buff to me fwiw, the only wins I have that exceeded that were wearing large shields. but qazlal would suck without upstairs
21:59:57 <hellmonk> yeah if the consensus is that qaz is supposed to be a challenge god then its fine
22:00:19 <advil> I'm not sure anyone is actively thinking about qazlal these days
22:03:02 <advil> so maybe there's no consensus
22:03:30 <advil> !lg @devteamnp won recent qazlal s=name
22:03:31 <Sequell> 2 games for @devteamnp (won recent qazlal): 2x Lasty
22:03:49 <advil> !lg @devteamnp won qazlal s=name
22:03:50 <Sequell> 34 games for @devteamnp (won qazlal): 7x Lasty, 5x advil, 4x Medar, 3x gammafunk, 2x PleasingFungus, 2x MarvinPA, 2x elliptic, 2x SGrunt, reaver, amalloy, doy, Brannock, neil, bh, wormsofcan
22:03:50 <minmay> "arrange all gods and uniques in order of how often people think about them"
22:04:13 <hellmonk> minmay: the only way for you to get sif at the top of a god ranking
22:05:02 <minmay> hellmonk: tasonir georg, who lives in a cave and thinks about cheibriados 10,000 times a day, is an outlier adn should not be counted
22:05:24 <minmay> i guess it's "should not have been counted" not "should not be counted" w/e
22:05:35 <hellmonk> I think about chei a lot rn bc the gnoll challenge
22:05:37 <advil> we can count him as 1 continuous thought
22:05:45 <hellmonk> normally I think about normal people gods like makhleb though
22:06:25 <advil> !lg @devteamnp won recent s=god
22:06:26 <Sequell> 97 games for @devteamnp (won recent): 10x Ru, 8x Okawaru, 8x Makhleb, 7x Gozag, 6x Hepliaklqana, 6x Lugonu, 5x Dithmenos, 5x Wu Jian, 5x Trog, 5x Uskayaw, 5x Vehumet, 4x Sif Muna, 3x Ashenzari, 3x, 2x Yredelemnul, 2x Xom, 2x Qazlal, 2x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x Cheibriados, 2x Nemelex Xobeh, The Shining One, Zin, Beogh, Jiyva, Fedhas
22:07:09 <alexjurkiewicz> after several late D deaths with Qaz in hellcrawl it still feels like a challenge god
22:07:38 <hellmonk> yeah I unironically think it's not buffed enough
22:08:07 <hellmonk> but I didn't want to reduce the noise right away, probably need to drop it somewhat though
22:08:50 <hellmonk> "you're loud" is fine but "you are a walking fireball explosion every turn" is kind of oppressive with no stairs
22:09:15 <alexjurkiewicz> yeah, most of my deaths are after using every escape consumable thus far generated in a single floor
22:09:21 <advil> I guess you could tweak it to go just out of los
22:09:27 <minmay> advil: what I'm getting from this is that the Dg stat change should be reverted because not even devs want to play them now
22:09:33 <hellmonk> yes, I was thinking shout noise
22:09:42 <hellmonk> which is like 12 or something right?
22:09:51 <advil> or you could mess with the curve as well as piety gain
22:09:58 <minmay> also ely i guess
22:10:19 <alexjurkiewicz> it would be more fun to have qaz with insane piety gain than with a nerfed conduct imo
22:10:25 <minmay> hellmonk, 16
22:10:31 <minmay> oh you mean shout noise is 12
22:10:35 <hellmonk> yeah
22:10:36 <minmay> qazlal's current noise goes up to 16
22:10:57 <advil> with qaz more aggressive use of powers to cull piety means being quieter
22:11:01 <minmay> yeah it's 12 by default
22:11:07 <hellmonk> big piety gain could work, I'm not very familiar with modifying the actual piety gain code
22:11:28 <hellmonk> maybe I will try some more after permabuffs is done
22:11:30 <minmay> advil: having high piety should probably be better than having low piety instead of being worse
22:12:13 <advil> aren't more clouds better??
22:12:55 <alexjurkiewicz> well the passive noise is only half the problem, you also have thunderclouds generating
22:13:06 <advil> yes, those get much louder
22:13:10 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: you could try changing piety decay to slower
22:13:17 <hellmonk> yeah, I could do that too
22:13:20 <advil> they do a lot of damage, but I might consider getting rid of thunderclouds
22:14:00 <advil> I'm not sure how weird they are with qaz was fully apparent before being able to see it in the noise bar
22:19:09 <Lasty> For what it's worth, I think it would be hard to buff Qaz. It's got strong bonuses and powers, and is only bad because of its noise and no-summons conducts. The net result is a bit like Chei: strong characters who worship Qaz are pretty strong, and weak characters who worship Qaz are dead.
22:19:35 <Lasty> However, unlike Chei, Qaz requires high Invo investment to be good, and Qaz is increasingly bad in the late game.
22:20:22 <Lasty> So I don't really want to buff Qaz's upsides. Lessening its downsides seem better -- or just tweaking them.
22:21:06 <Lasty> Two easy buffs on that front would be 1) shield allies from clouds, or 2) lower noise significantly. Either one would effectively remove a heavy conduct.
22:21:30 <alexjurkiewicz> were talking hellcrawl here
22:21:32 <Lasty> As for demigods, I think they're fine right now, but I already greatraced them, so I'm working on other stuff.
22:21:34 <Lasty> Oh.
22:22:37 <hellmonk> well I'm sort of talking mainline too
22:22:55 <advil> yeah it was about regular crawl too
22:24:34 <advil> shield allies from clouds seems like an interesting idea
22:27:25 <advil> I do think thundercloud noise is too spiky
22:27:49 <advil> it adds as much as an extra +10 sometimes
22:27:55 <Lasty> yeha
22:38:41 <gammafunk> for storm clouds qaz needs to think less in terms of X-men and more in terms of Care Bears
23:22:43 <alexjurkiewicz> hellmonk: 2 headed ogres can be holding 1 giant club and 1 qstaff in hellcrawl
23:22:50 <alexjurkiewicz> which is sort of funny
23:23:06 <hellmonk> seems ok to me
23:23:17 <alexjurkiewicz> two headed formicids
23:23:46 <hellmonk> I mean if you can dual wield giant clubs you can probably dual wield quarterstaves as well
23:23:57 <hellmonk> why not mix it up
23:24:20 <alexjurkiewicz> things that suck in hellcrawl: seeing moon tla in a shop
23:25:00 <nikheizen> things that suck in hellcrawl: shops
23:26:56 <Lightli> ??plan
23:26:56 <Sequell> plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:release_plans
23:39:50 <Lightli> Lasty: What are your current plans?
23:40:11 <hellmonk> R A N G E D R E F O R M
23:41:12 <wheals_> removing lightlis
23:42:20 <gammafunk> if not this version, then next version
23:50:02 <alexjurkiewicz> makh lesser destruction does really random damage. not sure if this is hellcrawl specific or also in vanilla
23:50:27 <alexjurkiewicz> with 7 invo: The zap hits the ogre (1). The zap hits the ogre (5). The stone arrow hits the ogre (10). The stone arrow hits the ogre (12).
23:50:30 <alexjurkiewicz> for a total cost of 4hp
23:51:00 <nikheizen> that sounds exactly like the way damage always works in dcss?
23:51:02 <geekosaur> also in vanilla, yes
23:51:24 <nikheizen> *unzips single many-sided die*
23:52:44 <hellmonk> lesser destruction is completely unchanged I'm pretty sure
23:52:56 <hellmonk> unless I did something to it a long time ago and forgot