00:10:19 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1101-g1de9d76 (34)
00:13:00 <minmay> question about iskenderun's mystic tower
00:15:08 <minmay> does it really need NINE identical statues
00:31:54 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-1101-g1de9d76 (34)
00:40:38 -!- Mayoi is now known as erkin
00:51:40 <minmay> !seen evilmike
00:51:40 <Sequell> I last saw evilmike at Mon Nov 16 05:03:03 2015 UTC (about 1y 24w 2d 23h 48m 36s ago) quitting, saying 'Read error: Connection reset by peer'.
01:10:02 -!- neizenel is now known as nikheizen
03:15:09 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
03:24:16 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1101-g1de9d76 (34)
04:11:04 <Jorgrell> glaas (L23 HuWn)  (Vaults:3)
04:46:18 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
04:59:25 <Eksell> Graouh (L13 MiFi)  (IceCv)
05:00:13 <Eksell> Graouh (L13 MiFi)  (IceCv)
05:01:25 <gammafunk> !crash graouh
05:01:26 <Sequell> 2. Graouh, XL13 MiFi, T:14792 (milestone): http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Graouh/crash-Graouh-20170504-085953.txt
05:01:38 <Eksell> Graouh (L13 MiFi)  (IceCv)
05:02:00 <gammafunk> maybe_remove_autoexclusion()
08:33:22 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:34:42 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:36:26 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:37:09 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:37:56 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:42:58 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:53:15 <Rotatell> Beargit (L13 GnSu)  (D:10)
08:54:17 <Cheibriados> Games crashes on seeing item detected with strong nose. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11051 by Beargit
08:55:10 <|amethyst> !crashlog
08:55:12 <Sequell> 17246. Beargit, XL13 GnSu, T:21478 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Beargit/crash-Beargit-20170504-125307.txt
08:56:37 <MarvinPA_> re: backlog, i'd be pretty strongly against including wjc or gnolls in 0.20, i think they definitely both need to wait
08:59:02 <MarvinPA_> the wjc/usk merge does still sound like a good thing to try, or when i get some time i might work on fixing up some of the outstanding stuff with wjc as a separate thing too
08:59:08 <MarvinPA_> either could be interesting i think
09:04:40 <|amethyst> !cashlog graouh
09:04:43 <|amethyst> !crashlog graouh
09:04:44 <Sequell> 3. Graouh, XL13 MiFi, T:14849 (milestone): http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Graouh/crash-Graouh-20170504-090119.txt
09:05:37 <advil> it does say "maybe" after all!
09:07:20 <Rotatell> sargx (L4 FeBe)  (D:3)
09:07:26 <|amethyst> same I bet
09:07:27 <MarvinPA_> maybe_crash, a good function
09:07:28 <|amethyst> !crashlog
09:07:29 <Sequell> 17247. sargx, XL4 FeBe, T:1738 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/sargx/crash-sargx-20170504-130712.txt
09:07:57 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1102-g188b92f: Don't crash when encountering short-named autoexclusions (#17246) 10(57 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/188b92fc19c1
09:08:18 <Rotatell> sargx (L4 FeBe)  (D:3)
09:08:35 <|amethyst> oh, err
09:08:49 <Rotatell> sargx (L4 FeBe)  (D:3)
09:09:17 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1103-g26be02c: Simplify 10(19 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/26be02c537ea
09:09:34 <MarvinPA_> giving the cloud mage undocumented cloud immunity seems sort of bad
09:18:36 <|amethyst> hm
09:19:02 <|amethyst> also, monsters with the cloak aren't cloud-immune
09:19:11 <|amethyst> and actor::cloud_immune is never called
09:19:35 <|amethyst> because it have overrides in both the concrete child classes
09:19:44 <|amethyst> s/have/has/
09:22:06 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1103-g26be02c (34)
09:22:29 <|amethyst> s/cloak/scarf/
09:30:55 <|amethyst> hm, I guess an MB_ might be a it much for this since it's so rare; I'll use a prop
10:02:18 <|amethyst> can monsters wear scarves?
10:02:59 <|amethyst> &mgoblin ; scarf ego:blah   (or even ; cloak) doesn't work
10:03:06 <|amethyst> it gives a naked monster
10:06:32 <MarvinPA_> probably only if it's done with special hacks in mon-gear, at a guess?
10:06:55 <MarvinPA_> as with draconian cloaks and monster aux armour generally
10:07:33 <|amethyst> yeah, I changed   case ARM_CLOAK:   to  case ARM_CLOAK: case ARM_SCARF:   to test
10:08:54 <Lightli> I just put on a scarf of cloud immunity
10:09:08 <|amethyst> ohh
10:09:10 <Lightli> I was incredibly surprised it existed
10:09:17 <|amethyst> this is broken
10:09:29 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1103-g26be02c (34)
10:11:19 <|amethyst> okay, I think that's fixed
10:13:54 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1104-g167f86b: Checkwhite 10(60 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/167f86b676b1
10:13:54 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1105-g903221b: Fix up cloud immunity scarf checks. 10(51 minutes ago, 3 files, 4+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/903221b21151
10:13:54 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1106-g61cc304: Describe monster cloud immunity in xv and ?/m (MarvinPA) 10(35 minutes ago, 4 files, 14+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/61cc304cc97c
10:13:54 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1107-g8dd48ab: Fix cloud immunity brand in itemspec and debug acq stats. 10(24 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8dd48abd2894
10:15:23 <|amethyst> grep says that was the only case of wearing(..., SPARM_*)
10:15:43 <|amethyst> nice lack of error message on that one
10:16:17 <|amethyst> btw, where did I get that "#17246" from?
10:16:20 <|amethyst> ohh
10:16:34 <|amethyst> I copy-pasted the number from !crashlog rather than from Mantis :)
10:24:31 <|amethyst> !tell Brannock  what do you think about giving the cloud mage a scarf?  then we can remove monster::cloud_immune and some of the mon-info.cc code I just added
10:24:32 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let brannock know.
10:25:33 <|amethyst> !tell Brannock otoh, I guess that would make ?/mcloud mage  not list the cloud immunity, since it doesn't know anything about default gear
10:25:33 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let brannock know.
10:26:48 -!- Evablue_ is now known as Evablue
10:26:50 <Lightli> maybe you could make the cloud mage immune to clouds and come wearing a scarf of cloud immunity?
10:27:52 <|amethyst> I think having both would be a little weird
10:28:37 <|amethyst> though I guess that would be invisible to players, since there's no way to remove a monster's armour (thank gods)
10:31:56 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-1108-g6ae5986: Unbrace 10(9 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6ae5986e5e13
11:09:27 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1108-g6ae5986 (34)
11:13:42 <Lasty_> !stats gn
11:13:43 <Sequell> Go start a gn if you want me to know its starting stats.
11:13:48 <Lasty_> !stats gnam
11:13:49 <Sequell> Starting stats for GnAM: Str 9 Int 13 Dex 14. Stat gain: Ba sid/5
11:14:42 <Lasty_> !stats gnwz
11:14:43 <Sequell> Starting stats for GnWz: Str 6 Int 18 Dex 12. Stat gain: Ba sid/5
11:14:52 <Lasty_> !tell Floodkiller maybe something like -4 str, -4 int?
11:14:52 <Sequell> Lasty_: OK, I'll let floodkiller know.
11:15:42 <Lasty_> !source religion.cc
11:15:42 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc
11:16:19 <Lasty_> !tell minmay Looks like it's currently red/majenta. Preference for new colors?
11:16:19 <Sequell> Lasty_: OK, I'll let minmay know.
11:41:20 <Brannock> gah
11:41:20 <Sequell> Brannock: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
11:41:24 <Brannock> thanks for all these fixes |amethyst
12:41:26 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/530 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/530
12:41:26 <Cheibriados> 03Glenn Matthews02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/530 * 0.20-a0-1109-ga20c278: Aptitudes table displays -- instead of 0 for unusable skills 10(10 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a20c27867805
13:01:29 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
13:09:35 <Cheibriados> 03Glenn Matthews02 {Brannock} 07* 0.20-a0-1109-ge3cd172: Aptitudes table displays -- instead of 0 for unusable skills 10(38 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e3cd1721dda5
13:25:11 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/531 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/531
13:25:11 <Cheibriados> 03cut1less02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/531 * 0.20-a0-1016-g9395ada: (Console) Use magic mapping colors 10(41 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9395ada04988
13:27:26 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-1108-g6ae5986 (34)
14:09:26 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-1109-ge3cd172 (34)
15:43:57 <amalloy> can i set the name of an artefact by hand in wizmode?
15:46:16 <amalloy> i'm looking at the vault trog_book, which looks like it will burn any item in the same stack as the book, provided its name contains the substring "book"
15:46:58 <amalloy> so on the turn you first discover the book, you can throw another book on top, and trog will burn them both. unintended but probably fine
15:47:53 <amalloy> or rather, probably unintended but fine. anyway, i think you could also throw the +9 demon whip "Himbookfa" and trog would burn it, claiming that "the spellbook bursts into flames"
16:39:59 <Doesnty> http://i.imgur.com/dwrLBIZ.png wow gnoll is brutal
16:40:52 <Doesnty> what i would do is uhh
16:41:02 <Doesnty> rename hellfire or something to "himbookfa"
16:41:10 <Doesnty> and just force that to generate
16:42:01 <Doesnty> i don't think wizmode lets you directly tamper item names
16:42:15 <Doesnty> but you can force all fixedarts to spawn
16:50:05 <amalloy> good idea
16:51:20 <Doesnty> by hellfire i meant the arbalest damnation
16:51:25 <Doesnty> that i forgot was renamed
16:51:28 <Doesnty> any fixedart
16:51:33 <Doesnty> (i think you got that tho)
16:52:39 -!- Euph0ria is now known as OICU812
17:10:46 <amalloy> indeed trog will burn up a "spellbook" which is actually an artefact named himbookfa
17:11:17 <amalloy> he's not very picky about words, which makes sense for an illiterate
17:11:47 <Brannock> trog has a hair trigger
17:12:02 <Brannock> hears 'book', instantly blasts it with fire
17:12:06 <G-Flex> a distressingly hairy trigger
17:26:27 <Floodkiller> !messages
17:26:27 <Sequell> (1/1) Lasty_ said (6h 11m 34s ago): maybe something like -4 str, -4 int?
17:41:45 <Floodkiller> Lasty_: 3/4/9, sid/5 then?  or moving some/all the reduced skill points into dex and/or modifying the growth? otherwise, it is quite literally worse than ghoul
18:15:57 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-1109-ge3cd172 (34)
18:26:57 <Doesnty> if you're talking gnoll gains
18:27:03 <Doesnty> they should probably be high-growth and low start
18:27:09 <Doesnty> gnoll earlygame is stupid easy while later on it's
18:27:11 <Doesnty> kind of dumb
18:27:22 <nikheizen> just remove this garbage race
18:27:24 <Doesnty> 12 skill is a very difficult wall to overcome
18:27:36 <Doesnty> http://i.imgur.com/dwrLBIZ.png
18:28:08 <amalloy> -9 is legit
18:28:11 <Doesnty> i ran out of not-slings things to invest
18:29:36 <nikheizen> delete this trash
18:29:43 <nikheizen> and bring back lava orcs
18:30:01 <nikheizen> you can call them pyrekin if tolkein triggers you too much
18:30:06 <nikheizen> magmen
18:30:11 <nikheizen> fireboys
18:30:22 <nikheizen> flameboyz
19:22:32 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp ba s=name
19:22:32 <Sequell> 91 games for devteamnp (ba): 30x Neil, 28x dpeg, 15x Lasty, 8x itsmu, 4x MarvinPA, 2x PleasingFungus, advil, elliptic, brannock, gammafunk
19:31:17 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
19:53:12 -!- jefus- is now known as jefus
20:15:57 <CanOfWorms> it's funny how SA is using the same justification to remove neqoxec to justify bringing back boulder beetles
20:16:22 <CanOfWorms> well, malmutate instead of neqoxec
20:17:12 <CanOfWorms> "all malmutate does is force you to reposition yourself when a malmutator comes into view! that's boring"
20:17:46 <CanOfWorms> "boulder beetles force you to reposition yourself when one comes into view. that's fun and interesting!"
20:27:42 <gammafunk> yeah, it's the mutation penalty that they dislike
20:27:57 <gammafunk> I forgot to cure mutations on my last char
20:27:59 <gammafunk> !log
20:28:05 <Sequell> 776. gammafunk, XL27 BaWn, T:103337: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20170504-060316.txt
20:28:15 <Doesnty> solution
20:28:21 <Doesnty> add uranium boulder beetles
20:31:26 <CanOfWorms> finally hopped that frog into heaven
20:33:57 <CanOfWorms> how many characters do you have left to run?
21:02:59 <gammafunk> a ton still, like 13 or 14
21:03:34 <gammafunk> I guess I can exclude dogs for now
21:03:47 <gammafunk> !greatoneandwon
21:04:08 <gammafunk> but even then (and ignoring 'Barachian')
21:04:14 <Sequell> non-oneandwon races for gammafunk: Deep Elf, Minotaur, Octopode, Mummy, Hill Orc, Merfolk, Formicid, Tengu, Naga, Ogre, Demigod, Felid, Halfling, Gnoll, Barachian
21:13:30 <CanOfWorms> deng
21:15:37 <Cryp71c> Evening
21:20:59 <minmay> !greatoneandwon
21:20:59 <Sequell> minmay: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:21:02 <minmay> !messages
21:21:02 <Sequell> (1/1) Lasty_ said (10h 4m 42s ago): Looks like it's currently red/majenta. Preference for new colors?
21:21:23 <Sequell> non-oneandwon races for minmay: Spriggan, Tengu, Vampire, Kobold, Halfling, Barachian
21:26:01 <Lasty> !tell marvinpa what're your thoughts on the current state of Wu Jian and its potential?
21:26:01 <Sequell> Lasty: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
21:26:02 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
21:30:07 <bh> o hai
21:30:18 <bh> !seen elliptic
21:30:18 <Sequell> I last saw elliptic at Fri May  5 00:54:14 2017 UTC (36m 3s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Leaving'.
21:30:31 * bh kicks Sequell
21:30:58 <Lasty> hey bh
21:31:44 <bh> howdy Lasty
21:32:24 <Lasty> what's new?
21:32:41 <Lasty> How's the wall?
21:33:10 <bh> house is still super messed up. the wall is difficult and likes to shed baseball sized cobbles
21:33:11 <minmay> Lasty: I guess I'll make another tavern thread about altar colours
21:33:21 <bh> I need to take a rock hammer to it and sort out the loose stuff
21:34:00 <Lasty> minmay: haha, do they all need changes?
21:34:09 <Lasty> bh: oof, dang :(
21:34:33 <bh> I did notice that a guy who sits 20 feet away from me at work seems to be playing crawl whenever I walk by
21:34:36 <bh> so that's going on
21:34:53 <Lasty> bh: lol, nice
21:35:09 <Lasty> Don't make him stop
21:35:27 <Lasty> bh: I have yet to successfully get _anyone_ into crawl, to the best of my knowledg
21:35:28 <Lasty> e
21:36:48 <Lasty> especially at work
21:40:20 <gammafunk> < MarvinPA_> re: backlog, i'd be pretty strongly against including wjc or gnolls in 0.20, i think they definitely both need to wait
21:40:23 <gammafunk> < MarvinPA_> the wjc/usk merge does still sound like a good thing to try, or when i get some time i might work on fixing up some of the outstanding stuff with wjc
21:40:26 <gammafunk> as a separate thing too
21:40:28 <gammafunk> < MarvinPA_> either could be interesting i think
21:40:34 <gammafunk> Lasty: what MPA said regarding wu/gn earlier
21:40:36 <bh> gammafunk: are we getting a gnoll race?
21:40:42 <gammafunk> getting?
21:40:47 <gammafunk> !lg * gn won
21:40:47 <Sequell> 56. murphy the Protected (L27 GnWn of Hepliaklqana), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2017-05-05 01:06:39, with 1556054 points after 85650 turns and 10:26:26.
21:40:58 <bh> ??gnoll
21:40:59 <Sequell> gnoll[1/5]: A fast-learning dog-like species. Their aptitudes start out at +4 in all skills, and after the skill is level 7, quickly decrease to -6 when the skill is level 11.
21:41:03 <gammafunk> bh needs to read gammafunk's latest trunk update post!
21:41:10 <ProzacElf> wu/usk merger might be good
21:41:16 <gammafunk> but yeah they may not actually make it into 0.20 in their current state
21:41:21 <ProzacElf> since there's kind of no there there with wu
21:41:25 <ProzacElf> as it stands
21:41:39 <gammafunk> well the there there isn't there *there*, it's more over there
21:41:41 <bh> gammafunk: will do. glad someone did something with gnolls. I think I was making noise about gnolls for 12 version
21:41:44 <bh> s
21:41:54 <ProzacElf> heh
21:42:24 <gammafunk> yeah the species has some potential if the idea can better come together, we'll have to see
21:42:43 <bh> the skill asymptote sounds brutal
21:42:59 <bh> can't you abuse it with crosstraining?
21:43:41 <gammafunk> I...don't think so? I'm actually now sure how they interact
21:44:11 <gammafunk> I would kind of guess that crosstrain would influnece the current aptitude
21:44:30 <|amethyst> the problem would be, and I also haven't investigated:
21:44:33 <bh> if you have lblades 7 is it cheaper to get to lblades 8 by training it or by training shortblades from 0?
21:44:50 <|amethyst> you train a skill up until it's at -6 aptitude
21:44:53 <bh> ??crosstraining
21:44:54 <Sequell> cross training[1/2]: 40% of the skill points (not levels!) in any weapon skill is used to boost the cross-trained skill for free. Short <-> Long Blades, Maces <-> Axes, Axes <-> Polearms, Polearms <-> Staves, Maces <-> Staves, Slings <-> Throwing
21:44:55 <|amethyst> or whatever aptitude
21:45:01 <|amethyst> you have spent some amount of XP on the skill
21:45:15 <CanOfWorms> bh: you can't
21:45:24 <|amethyst> but I would expect the crosstraining calculations to think you have spent much more XP on the skill
21:45:24 <bh> CanOfWorms: oh right, it'll never be cheaper
21:45:31 <bh> I wrote that code, last I checked
21:45:33 <CanOfWorms> I have an offline gnoll with 10 m&f and 6 staves base
21:45:33 <|amethyst> since they see a -6 aptitude
21:45:39 <CanOfWorms> but the total m&f is like 10.4
21:45:41 <ProzacElf> cross-training did not seem to have *that* big an impact
21:45:48 <ProzacElf> when i checked last
21:48:29 <gammafunk> !lm canofworms gn
21:48:32 <Sequell> No milestones for canofworms (gn).
21:48:37 <CanOfWorms> it's offline
21:48:45 <gammafunk> wow, winscumming to get the oneandwonrace
21:48:48 <gammafunk> that's against the rules
21:48:52 <CanOfWorms> lol
21:58:31 <minmay> fix oneandwon for ba already
21:58:41 <Lasty> I'm currently playing Wu Jian, and the god doesn't make much sense to me as it currently exists. Serpent's lash is cool, and chain-wall-jump is pretty strong but feels like an ability that would work better as an (a) ability that has fewer hoops to jump through. Whirlwind and Lunge seem fine for repositioning, but otherwise meh.
21:59:09 <gammafunk> fewer hoops?
21:59:26 <Lasty> gammafunk: as in you don't have to find the relatively rare terrain that gives you the ability to spam wall jump
21:59:54 <Lasty> In Lair, my best way to kill hydras was to lure them to one spot on the map that let me chain wall jump and then do that
22:00:32 <gammafunk> my formicid did an old wall jump so it could wand the hydra more times
22:00:41 <gammafunk> which worked and let me continue my dig to find the lab
22:00:54 <gammafunk> none of this information I'm giving is helpful in any way though
22:00:58 <Lasty> old wall jump had more uses
22:02:04 <Lasty> I think there are things that could make the god better, but I think it probably makes the most sense to merge lunge and whirlwind into Usk, because you'd have reasons to use them even if they give no bonus damage/effects
22:07:27 <gammafunk> interesting ideas, would lunge really make much sense for usk?
22:07:42 <gammafunk> I guess I can see whirlwind...well you get multihit even regardless of piety gain
22:07:51 <Lasty> definitely -- anything that combines movement with damage
22:08:13 <gammafunk> but in addition to the situational multihit, you also get more piety
22:08:20 <gammafunk> do usk thinks proc on damage?
22:08:32 <gammafunk> I guess I never thought about how they proc
22:08:43 <Lasty> usk gives piety for damage, and the passives trigger on piety gain
22:08:57 <gammafunk> right
22:12:01 <CanOfWorms> lasty: I do like lunge for stabbers, and whirlwind + lunge + serpent's lash does create unusual situtations when combined with each other
22:14:44 <Lasty> CanOfWorms: yeah, serpent's lash is pretty neat
22:18:34 <minmay> Lasty: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23570&p=312335#p312335
22:20:48 <Lasty> minmay: Not a fan of - for some altars, but I think the recoloring suggestions make sense
22:21:01 <hellmonk> just make trog, fedhas, and kiku distinct and then reserve one color for suboptimal gods
22:21:23 <Lasty> hellmonk: lightcyan, like highly beneficial items
22:21:30 <hellmonk> lol
22:22:10 <minmay> one possibility I considered mentioning, but didn't thinking it was too radical, is to enforce that altars get secondary features nearby
22:22:36 <minmay> for example fedhas altars always have a plant next to them, trog altars always have blood around them, sif muna altars always have duvessa on them...
22:22:54 <minmay> but then you have to get all vault makers on board with that
22:23:08 <minmay> and change 1,000 temple vaults
22:23:33 <minmay> at least i can do the - thing in my rcfile, or maybe i'll just make all the gods i hate darkgrey
22:23:54 <Lasty> the latter seems simpler; I'd guess you have 13 or fewer you like
22:24:28 <minmay> it's also possible you could come up with carefully chosen elemental colours that make all the altars easily distinguishable but that sounds very difficult
22:25:27 <minmay> one improvement would be to add elemental colours that cycle through their colours in order instead of randomly
22:25:32 <CanOfWorms> you could also spawn altars that share a colour next to each other
22:25:37 <Lasty> that would be an improvement
22:25:45 <CanOfWorms> very packed ecumenical temples
22:25:47 <Lasty> but then you have to keep track of the state of each one
22:25:50 <minmay> so an altar with 2 colours would switch on every redraw instead of just some of them
22:25:58 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy
22:26:03 <Lasty> not that that's too hard
22:26:25 <Lasty> heading out for the evening. Thanks for the analysis, minmay. I'll try to get in a patch in the next day or so.
22:26:32 <minmay> Lasty: well, for these you'd only need to track them per-colour not per-feature, presumably if there are 50 usk altars in LOS all of them being either red or magenta on each draw is not a deal breaker
22:26:36 <hellmonk> what's our dieselrobin status
22:26:40 <Lasty> minmay: true
22:26:54 <minmay> agreed that tracking colour state per-feature would be a mess
22:27:45 <minmay> hellmonk: i think it's somewhere between "tank is filled with piss instead of diesel" and "engine is missing"
22:28:03 <hellmonk> so are we participating or not
22:31:03 <minmay> !tell Lasty I can make a patch for the colour thing after a few days
22:31:04 <Sequell> minmay: OK, I'll let lasty know.
22:31:21 <minmay> hellmonk: yes but we still need a 3rd team member, afaik
22:31:30 <minmay> hellmonk: also isn't this the wrong channel for that
22:35:07 <rumflump> altars should look cool http://dpaste.com/3DQC6QF
22:53:22 <minmay> hm. weakness with recolouring altars in the rcfile: they seem to revert to their original colours when out of LOS
22:59:04 <gammafunk> would it be bad if the slimes that trj spat out were just normal monsters that gave XP?
22:59:37 <Brannock> I've never been convinced that XP-scumming in Crawl was truly a problem, but I'm sure *someone* would find a way to abuse it like with that guy and trap exclusions
22:59:46 <gammafunk> oh right, it regens
22:59:59 <Brannock> yeah
22:59:59 <gammafunk> that's probably the reason they're like that in the first place
23:00:09 <Brannock> if TRJ didn't regen, either, then you'd have people stair-abusing to chip it down
23:00:23 <Brannock> I think status quo is actually okay in terms of "you want to finish this as quickly as possible"
23:00:23 <gammafunk> well trj used to not regen
23:00:31 <gammafunk> but yeah people did exactly that
23:00:44 <gammafunk> well there are some weird interactions
23:00:55 <gammafunk> "Ugh why doesn't Uskayaw reward you for killing Royal Jelly offshoots? I was counting on a Grand Finale so I kept fighting and boom, my piety was gone and I was corroded to death."
23:01:19 <Brannock> huh, is usk piety dependent on if the enemy awards XP?
23:01:23 <gammafunk> the spawns are not indicated as different in any way which makes things like this even more awkward
23:01:31 <gammafunk> yeah
23:01:38 <Brannock> you don't get usk piety for hitting summons?
23:01:50 <Brannock> sounds more like an usk problem than a summon/no-xp problem
23:02:05 <gammafunk> I would guess not; there are weird cases like the player making summons and turning them hostile
23:02:15 <gammafunk> spammal it up for piety etc
23:02:29 <hellmonk> is there a reason they don't use the durable summon icon
23:02:36 <Brannock> seems inefficient considering you'd have to turn them all hostile one at at time
23:02:38 <minmay> the reason is that they aren't durable summons
23:02:50 <hellmonk> well yeah, but that would seem to be easy enough to fix
23:03:17 <hellmonk> unless there is a difference between trj spawns and durable summons that impacts gameplay in some other way?
23:05:17 <gammafunk> I think there are various ways to make it more efficient, but bottom line is you probably don't want to ever award usk piety for a player summons
23:05:55 <gammafunk> it may be something that you can explicitely check for since summoned monsters have a field for who their summoner is
23:06:28 <minmay> what if trj spawns were non-durable summons? with a "dissolves into nothing" message like sticks to snakes
23:07:00 <gammafunk> meaning they would all poof upon killing trj?
23:07:22 <rumflump> in before UV4 carts a kobold summoner all around the dungeon for usk piety
23:07:32 <minmay> gammafunk: well, I don't see anything wrong with that
23:07:48 <gammafunk> trj gets a lot of kills after it does from its spawns
23:08:13 <gammafunk> but perhaps the slime monsters or other things could be adjusted to help with that "difficulty" issue
23:08:42 <gammafunk> s/does/dies/
23:08:49 <Brannock> !lg . ikiller~~the_royal_jelly
23:08:50 <Sequell> 2. Brannock the Champion of Chaos (L23 DDFi of Makhleb), slain by an azure jelly (created by the royal jelly) on Slime:6 (slime_pit) on 2015-03-23 16:47:42, with 484667 points after 47391 turns and 2:09:12.
23:09:03 <minmay> if a significant proportion of trj's kills happen after it's already dead that sounds like a problem regardless
23:09:31 <gammafunk> I don't think that statement abides by crawl logic
23:09:34 <Brannock> yes
23:09:35 <gammafunk> since death curses exist
23:09:37 <Brannock> yes
23:09:42 <minmay> but I don't have a great perspective on this since I never found trj scary
23:09:43 <Brannock> post-trj slimes are still "trj"
23:09:51 <Brannock> it's explicitly part of the encounter
23:10:03 <gammafunk> !lg * recent ikiller=the_royal_jelly / killer!=the_royal_jelly
23:10:04 <Sequell> 806/902 games for * (recent ikiller=the_royal_jelly): N=806/902 (89.36%)
23:10:07 <gammafunk> lol
23:10:21 <gammafunk> don't ever change, players
23:10:26 <Brannock> how many of these kills are while trj is actually still alive
23:10:34 <gammafunk> hrm, true
23:10:36 <minmay> gammafunk: well---yes, that
23:10:38 <gammafunk> let's see
23:10:57 <minmay> It's kind of hard for trj to get a kill when it can't even melee you because its spawns constantly swap it away from you
23:11:02 <Brannock> yes
23:11:26 <gammafunk> I mean, I believe it still gets a considerable number of kills itself
23:11:43 <gammafunk> since it's more dangerous than anything that it spawns
23:11:48 <minmay> I wasn't under the impression that death curses killed very often outside of zigs, either; usually people die to mummies because they smite and there are 20 of them :P
23:12:09 <gammafunk> how are we defining "very often"
23:12:15 <gammafunk> is this a conversation about how players actually die
23:12:20 <Brannock> death is inevitable
23:12:21 <minmay> But it sounds like we've answered the question "is there anything wrong with trj summons being actual (durable) summons"
23:12:22 <gammafunk> or a conversation about how they should die
23:12:28 <Brannock> slowly
23:12:59 <gammafunk> no I don't think we have actually
23:13:25 <minmay> Well if they shouldn't disappear when trj dies it follows from that that they shouldn't be actual summons, right?
23:14:59 <gammafunk> we haven't even established that first thing, that was were the conversation sort of begin, right
23:17:31 <gammafunk> trj could have its summons poof on death, but if it did so, fewer players would die to trj, which would mean we'd probably want to adjust trj/slime:$ in some other way
23:17:38 <gammafunk> that's where I am in this conversation, at least
23:20:05 <gammafunk> if this change to normal summons did happen, it would prevent weird issues about identifying what kind of thing its spawns are and them having other "strange" interactions, which would be nice
23:20:31 <minmay> That's why I suggested it, yes
23:23:57 <minmay> O - a +7 rapier of draining (weapon)
23:23:59 <minmay> ok eustachio
23:26:20 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
23:27:51 <minmay> ah, the good old d:6 unseen horror
23:29:05 <ProzacElf> mmm
23:34:37 <bh> sometimes crawl would prefer not.
23:37:24 <Brannock> crawlteby
23:38:00 <gammafunk> I'm not actually sure how you can query for death curses that include summons
23:38:05 <minmay> I did kill it
23:38:26 <minmay> gammafunk: vmsg~~death_curse should catch both direct death curse deaths and death curse summon deaths
23:39:08 <gammafunk> !lg * recent tomb cikiller~~mummy / vmsg~~death_curse
23:39:09 <Sequell> 110/482 games for * (recent tomb cikiller~~mummy): N=110/482 (22.82%)
23:39:17 <minmay> ikiller~~death_curse will catch summons but not direct kills
23:39:33 <gammafunk> !lg * recent tomb cikiller~~mummy / ((ckaux~~death_curse || vmsg~~death_curse))
23:39:34 <Sequell> 110/482 games for * (recent tomb cikiller~~mummy): N=110/482 (22.82%)
23:39:42 <gammafunk> I thought it was ckaux
23:39:50 <Brannock> character killer auxiliary?
23:40:00 <minmay> canonoicalized kaux
23:40:28 <minmay> so you get "scimitar of flaming" instead of "+3, +4 scimitar of flaming"
23:40:28 <gammafunk> if you say duvessa is a high elf that's a big ca-no-no
23:40:52 <gammafunk> get it?
23:41:11 <minmay> I'm not *that* bothered by people saying duvessa's a high elf so long as they accept the correction
23:41:39 <gammafunk> my last stream subtitle was "Toadal Kermitment"
23:41:47 <gammafunk> for my Barachi
23:42:30 <gammafunk> I guess no one every really dies to direct death curses these days
23:42:51 <gammafunk> !lg * tomb cikiller~~mummy / ckaux~~death_curse
23:42:53 <Sequell> 90/1569 games for * (tomb cikiller~~mummy): N=90/1569 (5.74%)
23:43:12 <gammafunk> I wonder if there was a change to the milestone logic though
23:43:47 <Brannock> highly deep elf
23:45:18 <gammafunk> oh I see, my previous query just had already included both kinds of death curse kills
23:54:22 -!- jeefus is now known as jefus
23:54:25 <hellmonk> I keep looking at the airstrike damage formula and lmaoing irl
23:55:20 <rumflump> foomcrotflmao
23:55:41 <|amethyst> minmay:  btw, Zin is lightgrey
23:56:06 <|amethyst> minmay:  and hep is lightgreen
23:57:17 <hellmonk> trying to decide how I want to rebalance it