00:00:08 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-959-gdc9e609 (34) 02:46:35 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 02:59:26 !messages 02:59:26 No messages for SteelNeuron. 03:14:01 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-959-gdc9e609 (34) 03:47:45 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:14:42 ziggurnaut (L3 DgTm) (D:2) 04:31:52 32-bit versions of Crawl have white rectangles as graphics 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11004 by ilyvion 05:56:21 !source player_in_connected_branch 05:56:21 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#L546 05:57:05 !source is_connected_branch 05:57:05 1/3. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/branch.cc#L185 05:58:07 !source BFLAG_NO_XLEV_TRAVEL 05:58:08 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/branch.h#L21 09:32:57 @??orc priest 09:32:57 orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 11-18 | AC/EV: 3/9 | Dam: 6 | natural, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 41 | Sp: cantrip [11!AM], pain (d14) [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d1+3) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 09:33:00 @?? killer bee 09:33:00 killer bee (07y) | Spd: 20 | HD: 3 | HP: 12-19 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 1008(poison:6-12) | fly | Res: 06magic(10) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 62 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 09:33:17 @??orc warrior 09:33:17 orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 23-33 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 133 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 13:02:50 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:05:36 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-959-gdc9e609 (34) 13:42:25 03minmay02 {Brannock} 07* 0.20-a0-960-ge493e74: Revise and expand the_grid 10(20 hours ago, 1 file, 3277+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e493e742ea6b 13:43:25 thx 13:44:55 that PR was huge 13:45:04 took a while to read over all the vaults 13:45:25 how long were you working on it? 14:07:56 !seen Floodkiller 14:07:56 I last saw Floodkiller at Mon Apr 3 02:54:03 2017 UTC (3d 15h 13m 53s ago) saying 'hypothetically, if a new charms spell were being developed, what design rules should it follow to avoid the issues with previous (and some current) charms spells?' on ##crawl-dev. 14:09:34 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-960-ge493e74 (34) 14:22:54 I guess it was about...8 to 10 hours total? 15:01:11 next time I'll have to put a comment on the PR 15:02:42 did you want to change something? sorry if I pushed that too early 15:04:59 you stole gammafunk's negative millimarvins! 15:05:13 nope 15:05:13 you got credit 15:05:15 the commit is attributed to you 15:05:16 yeah 15:05:41 I didn't leave a comment on the PR, so unless you happened to read irc messages at the time, you wouldn't have known 15:05:44 I wasn't exactly serious 15:06:02 you were serious. no one jokes about millimarvins. 15:06:44 it's just a fairly complicated set of vaults that could stand some going over 15:06:53 also wanted to look at what the XP in them actually was 15:07:43 Overall it's toned down compared to the previous version; no more large main vaults on d:7 15:08:34 but I agree 15:45:15 !messages 15:45:15 No messages for minmay. 15:53:32 @?bush 15:53:32 bush (07P) | Spd: 070 | HD: 20 | HP: 84-128 | AC/EV: 15/0 | 03plant, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0 | Sz: Big | Int: brainless. 15:53:36 @?plant 15:53:36 plant (03P) | Spd: 070 | HD: 10 | HP: 46-64 | AC/EV: 10/0 | 03plant, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: small | Int: brainless. 15:53:38 that's my bush 17:27:32 -!- lynn_ is now known as lynn 18:04:28 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-960-ge493e74 (34) 18:22:19 !seen Floodkiller 18:22:19 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:22:19 I last saw Floodkiller at Mon Apr 3 02:54:03 2017 UTC (3d 19h 28m 15s ago) saying 'hypothetically, if a new charms spell were being developed, what design rules should it follow to avoid the issues with previous (and some current) charms spells?' on ##crawl-dev. 18:30:30 here, by the way 18:43:42 Floodkiller: would you mind sharing your ideas here as well? 18:44:07 Floodkiller: I get that you dislike dynamical monsters very much (from reading the SA thread). But I couldn't see any actual reasons. 18:53:19 the dynamic monster system is very bad for players who are not already very comfortable with the game, and very good at estimating their power level. Due to the buffs, the player is discouraged from escaping or running away unless they plan on never attempting the fight again and just avoiding it. 18:54:06 Floodkiller: estimating threats: this is exactly where game depth comes from, though. 18:54:11 When you combine this with rune floors, it leads to a knowledge spoiler issue of needing to identify the vault used, identify the monsters inside, and determine if you are actually able to take it on. If you fail at this estimate, you cannot return until you become strong enough to deal with those monsters, except they are now buffed 18:54:51 thus, players who aren't good at estimating their strength back themselves into a corner very quickly, and become frustrated at no longer being able to progress 18:55:33 obviously, it's a nerf, but why do you jump so quickly at "frustrated at no longer being able to progress"? Roguelike players tend to like challenges and difficulty. 18:56:26 (I had very similar discussions about the rune lock, by the way.) 18:57:50 it's okay for roguelikes to be difficult, and to have sections that require the player to learn the rules of how to play (system depth) to earn progress 18:58:35 however, this system tells the player to do that, but also teach them that it is bad to use escape tools unless they never plan on engaging that enemy again (or only engage after they have sufficiently outleveled the enemy) 18:59:23 I would like this system if it were also combined with Hellcrawl's lack of upstairs, because at that point it no longer is a concern to return to challenges you have escaped from 18:59:31 in my experience, it makes the decision tougher: of course you sometimes have to teleport or use the staircase -- death is permanent. It's just a much more pronounced decision. 19:00:44 I realise it's psychologically annoying to ask a tax for something that was entirely free before (this is not meant as a joke). 19:02:45 The complaint isn't about psychological annoyance, but about how it punishes experimentation - in a game where experimentation is sold as the way for unspoiled players to learn what monsters, items, gods, spells, etc. do 19:03:00 ^ 19:03:11 bezotted feels kinda dcssca-ish. like that time when you could move at full speed unless you turned a corner, at which point you lost about 8 aut to prevent pillardancing and improve realism 19:03:14 I was trying to type that, but couldn't think of how to phrase it 19:03:15 yes, it goes from "wow, I shouldn't be here" to "oops, I went too deep and now this is permanently harder." 19:03:53 minmay: you still learn this. Not as quickly as now, of course 19:04:50 I have nearly 100 Crawl ascensions and I'll still occasionally feel my way out and see just how deep I can go with a given character. With the bezotting changes, I would need to absolutely know ahead of time whether or not my character is prepared, instead of feeling out whether the pushback is too strong/dangerous right now. 19:05:06 You could reduce this problem by removing the branching structure and making the game linear, though I'm not sure Floodkiller would support that 19:05:29 and ofc there are still other approachability issues with the game 19:05:39 ultimately, games are about decisions and consequences -- in current Crawl, decisions are quite light. 19:06:07 I understand the argument that Crawl is too long for tougher decisions, but I don't agree (probably because I never minded dying or winning too much). 19:06:13 minmay: I would support a linear game, because at that point you are still allowed to make progress instead of feeling stuck 19:06:19 I'm fine with shortening Crawl and making tougher decisions :) 19:06:29 of course, easier said than done 19:06:36 dpeg: well when you're desiging crawl, you don't want to design around "the player doesn't care if they win" 19:06:45 *designing 19:07:03 even if making progress means you hit a wall a different way, it still feels better than hitting a wall through being stuck in the same areas 19:07:13 gammafunk: of course not, but it matters if I think "this game should be winnable after 100 tries" or "...1000 tries" etc. 19:07:26 It's not about tougher decisions, you're approaching this from the perspective of a player who already knows everything; new players don't have the information to make those decisions, and bezotting makes it much more difficult for them to gather that information 19:07:48 in any case, I really think something should be done about staircases... and the branch on CBRO achieves that 19:08:10 I am absolutely happy to discuss other ways to make stairs less cheesy. 19:08:32 yeah it seems to be still an open question as to how much harder the dev team as a whole would like crawl to be 19:08:40 gammafunk: certainly 19:08:51 Is it established what uses of stairs are desired and undesired? 19:08:59 like, the response to minmay's statement is "players will have a harder time doing that experimentation/learning, but eventually they'll figure it out" 19:09:34 I think early game and early-mid is difficult enough. It's late-mid and late game that needs to be more difficult (if at all) 19:09:53 minmay: I hope I don't do that! It's been a long while since I was a new player, but I was dying to new monsters and particularly new branches all the time. I can only imagine that I'd have picked up the lesson "okay, I cannot easily run around with so many monsters on my tail" along the lines. 19:09:54 I believe the criticism of stair usage centers around "stairs make it too easy to win" 19:09:55 For example, is using stairs partway through a branch because you'd like to do another branch (strategically, no immediate danger) okay? 19:11:08 gammafunk: There can be balance issues without a condemnation of the current overall difficulty - for example, something can be very centralizing, and bad for that reason alone, not necessarily "making the game too easy" 19:11:10 minmay: when I campaigned for the rune lock, I mentioned that it was a really mild rule change. One of the harder ones I offered was only downstairs in each subbranch. 19:12:12 It really sounds like you're looking for the no-upstairs-at-all approach then. That was the least-impactful use of upstairs I could think of (hence why I started with it) 19:12:20 staircases have several tactical applications: they allow resetting fights (if the monster is not adjacent) and they allow thinning out groups. 19:12:52 in moderation, these are fine, but in Crawl, I find they're generally too good 19:13:20 crazy idea: don't allow the player to go upstairs until they've discovered all upstairs on a level 19:13:27 encourages teleportation and magic mapping use 19:13:41 Brannock: yes, sounds interesting. Not so crazy for me: I'm sure this was floated on some god design :) 19:13:47 Brannock: seems mechanically simpler to replace all stairs with escape hatches 19:13:51 Brannock: you might have to remove or reduce ambushes, but there's a stealable hellmonk patch for that :) 19:13:59 so once you go down you have to find a hatch somewhere else to get up 19:14:35 replacing with escape hatches breaks a few vaults I think 19:14:45 like that one temple overflow vault that's only accessible from below 19:14:57 Brannock: so does not allowing the player to go upstairs until they've discovered all upstairs on a level 19:15:05 yes 19:15:06 ah, yeah 19:15:08 dpeg: just to keep perspective here, rune lock had very little effect on the game's overall learning curve (nor its difficutly) ; any drastic change to stairs would be far greater, at least for learning curve 19:15:42 gammafunk: I know, that's why I keep saying it is mild. I did hope that a global rule change like rune lock would trigger discussion of other ones, but seems it didn't. 19:16:19 yeah, changes with big impact are more stubbornly resisted 19:17:01 which is good in the sense that the game just doesn't get broken in bad ways that maybe drives a lot of people away 19:17:06 I think a mechanically simple change like disallowing stair use with monsters in LOS would have very little effect on learning curve, provided you revised the vaults that would become spoiler traps with it 19:17:17 what's even more important to me that fighting luring or nerfing staircases: we should consider everything in the game as potentially changeable. 19:17:41 V:5 is a big one if you prevent climbing stairs in LoS of a monster 19:18:04 Removing upstairs would have a much bigger effect if you keep the game nonlinear, but if you linearize the game then I don't think it would be significantly more difficult to learn 19:18:07 Floodkiller: actually the wardens were one of the reasons that convinced me we should do something about staircases. 19:18:08 I don't think anyone specifically considers things unchangeable, but rather they don't want 'bad' changes 19:18:30 (and would still make the game significantly harder - quite a lot harder than bezotting makes it in fact!) 19:18:30 gammafunk: hopefully! 19:19:04 that's the other thing I'm concerned about 19:19:11 I think bezotting makes the early game harder than it makes the later game harder 19:19:20 early game is at a satisfactory level of difficulty imho 19:19:24 Floodkiller: to be more precise: the wardens improve the Vaults branch very much, in my opinion, especially V:5. They show how it can be interesting if you have to solve a tactical problem without recourse to staircases. 19:19:29 Well, literally any of these changes will do that, because they're global changes 19:19:54 Brannock: yes, but that can be tweaked once/if there's some assessment of the scope to go for. 19:19:56 new naga spell: staircases into slides 19:19:57 well to round out this discussion, let's just make sure we never get away from the principles outlined in vaultmaking[3] 19:19:58 dpeg: stairdancing v:5 was already a terrible strategy before vault wardens were added 19:20:12 ??vaultmaking[3 19:20:12 vaultmaking[3/3]: I suggested to gamma earlier that I should remove the equivalent of the vaginal canal. It makes the vault look better as well. 19:20:12 you just see a lot of peopl do it because theyre bad (see also immolation v:5) 19:20:15 haha 19:20:44 dpeg, something like scaling strength of bezotting based on HD or absdeptH? 19:20:56 Fast wardens could be interesting in places like lair where stairs are more important though 19:21:04 Brannock: yes, for example the number of bezotment levels (so early on, capped at one, which is pretty mild) 19:21:38 and mostly serves to explain the mechanic 19:22:32 I really don't think making bezotting even more complex is the right way to approach that 19:23:00 I think I can put my my gripe like this: games like Crawl force you to be extremely defensive -- this is natural. I feel that some of the emergent defensive behaviours are unfun (this is subjective and I might be alone in this). Hence my suggestions. 19:23:16 Yeah, and those should be solved everywhere including early game 19:23:40 minmay: I really don't get your complexity argument here: Crawl is baroque -- it is extremely complex with or without bezottinh. 19:24:29 well, crawl's aim isn't to be as baroque as possible, it's design is more trying to be "only as much things as you can have that are good" 19:24:33 for example, bezotment 1 could simply be "moves faster", bezotment 2 could be "more health", bezotment 3 could be "hits harder" etc. The rules are ours. 19:24:47 dpeg: that's not much of an argument. "x is bad, so it's okay if we make it worse". i don't feel strongly about bezotting either way, but i'm against that argument 19:24:53 so since crawl is already complex we should just give up and not care about how difficult it gets for new players to pick it up? 19:24:58 crawl already being complex is not an excuse to make it more complex 19:25:03 I think if you go that route you want to use a different naming scheme than "bezotment" for all three levels, to increase clarity to the player 19:25:13 I'm pretty pessimistic and even I wouldn't go that far 19:25:15 one big issue with bezotment is 19:25:16 gammafunk: yes, and I've lobbied for a bunch of removals in that direction. Like I said, I think ideal behaviour is so bad that it warrants a new mechanic. 19:25:21 I think it probably really breaks console display 19:25:34 in what way? 19:25:41 it's been ages sincE I played console so I don't have a mental model handy 19:25:44 dpeg: Yeah, I'm just saying that if you can achieve some fun thing in a more minimal/elegant way, that's better, generally speaking 19:25:48 My point re: minmay is just that whatever we do, it won't be too complex for players. They can grasp anything. Our task to make sure they only have to learn relevant stuff, of course. 19:25:52 can't see whether a monster is bezotted or not without 'x' or a similar command 19:25:53 Brannock: there's just not a lot of space to explain monster status effects in console 19:25:58 right, the visual bandwidth issues 19:26:10 gammafunk: absolutely 19:26:58 guess I need to wait until our console has unicode diacrits :) 19:27:50 dpeg: it won't be too complex for *all* players, no, but there are plenty of players who give up on the game because learning it is too difficult; I have seen this firsthand and I am sure you can find plenty of others who have 19:27:52 <|amethyst> we'd need to support glyphs that are multiple characters (multiple unicode codepoints) 19:28:23 s/@/웃/ 19:28:30 dang 19:28:33 :) 19:28:50 I wonder how text-to-speech would handle these 19:29:01 Brannock: 웃 is "oos" in korean. ish 19:29:25 <|amethyst> that has even more technical problems that diacriticals of course 19:29:25 is it a character that means person in any way? 19:29:27 so at least for foreign-language chars it could at least ask google translate how to pronounce it 19:29:33 minmay: we have riddled our players with stuff like item weights and so on, and we still do with chunks. They will learn anything, that's not the problem. The real question is if the gameplay gain (what I'd call incresed depth) is worth it. 19:29:39 gammafunk: probably not, but who knows 19:30:03 apparently it means "laugh" 19:30:12 The other big interface issue with current bezotting is that it slows down the game a lot because you want to be aware of every bezot on the turn it occurs 19:30:20 btw, regarding the console interface: another option is a more sophisticated branding system (the background colours of monsters) 19:31:19 as we speak, I have this bezotted ice dragon on E:1 19:31:19 <|amethyst> you'd have to prevent bezotted monsters from ever being distracted or slept 19:31:39 <|amethyst> (or paralysed or whatever) 19:31:55 or unaware 19:32:00 <|amethyst> or at least not show bezotment in those situations 19:33:34 sorry for that, German internet is far worse than German tanks 19:33:58 New branch created: pull/509 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/509 19:33:58 03hellmonk02 {yrmvgh} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/509 * 0.20-a0-961-g3ffe23d: remove hydra head chopping (lazy) + hydras start with more heads 10(7 months ago, 2 files, 3+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ffe23d9dc3a 19:33:58 03hellmonk02 {yrmvgh} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/509 * 0.20-a0-962-gd28a83b: change some hydra-related descriptions 10(7 months ago, 2 files, 2+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d28a83bd89b5 19:34:15 Homer weeps! 19:34:37 I'm also not sure bezotting can gracefully be used to deal with both stair usage and luring 19:34:44 <|amethyst> dpeg_: Hesiod 19:34:51 |amethyst: I bow to you :) 19:34:58 since, as you pointed out, there are a lot of unwanted stair usages that have nothing to do with luring 19:35:30 minmay: quite possibly. To me (and I guess for Lasty_ as well), it is an experiment to see if the game becomes more interesting: more relevant tactical encounters. 19:35:45 <|amethyst> I am not sure what I think about bezotment, but one thing that seems potentially interesting 19:35:49 sure 19:36:06 <|amethyst> is that the increase in difficulty is greater for good players than bad ones 19:36:10 minmay: I'm not all that concerned about stair usages that aren't tactical 19:36:26 |amethyst: I'm not convinced of that, have you seen how much bad players use stairs 19:36:28 <|amethyst> because if you charge into every combat already, you probably won't see as much bezotment as someone who does play carefully 19:36:36 |amethyst: yes, that's intended! 19:37:12 could noise, not stairs, be a bigger cause of luring/defensiveness in crawl vs other RLs? 19:37:58 rumflump: yes, certainly. But PleasingFungus convinced me that trying to combat that with better AI (such as waking more monsters while you lure) will Not Work. 19:38:57 Lasty: my poor OpAs is sporting "Harm -- I am not sure about the wisdom of that :) 19:39:40 rumflump: as in, would there be less luring if monsters never woke up unless they were in your LOS (or took damage)? I would say definitely yes 19:39:58 dpeg_: does not sound like a winning combo :D 19:40:02 But that's because it gives you the benefits of luring without having to lure (never having to fight more than one monster at a time etc) 19:40:14 Lasty: didn't find something better and went with it anyway 19:40:29 Harm is unironically strong 19:41:22 minmay: okay, but it probably works better on someone with AC? 19:41:49 The problem with trying to use smarter AI to control the player is that AI is still dumber than a human, so the human ends up controlling it instead - for example I manipulate ranged AI to my benefit more often than not 19:42:49 minmay: I think this was also PF's reasoning. Even with the most harsh punishment I could think of (all monsters on the level are awake and know your position), he convinced me that luring would still be best course. 19:42:51 I have yet to see a game successfully *reduce* degenerate behaviour by adding more complicated AI, though other benefits of the AI can outweigh it 19:43:02 <|amethyst> minmay: chess? 19:43:43 minmay: agreed re: harm 19:43:47 I picked my words carefully to dance around that :P More complicated AI can definitely increase difficulty but I have never seen it reduce degenerate behaviour 19:44:00 but spellless Octopodes would not be my first choice of users 19:44:21 Or if you mean AI is better than humans at chess, yes that's true but I don't think we're going to write a crawl AI that outsmarts its players any time soon 19:44:22 yeah, that's what I meant, minmay - only waking up one room of monsters at a time, ie, whatever's in your LOS plus the attacked monster's LOS, or something 19:44:48 <|amethyst> we're not going to write one, but I bet if we paid a grad student for several years we could train one :) 19:44:50 If that happened you'd still do loads of luring to separate those monsters, but less than currently I suppose 19:45:08 <|amethyst> or write one that can be trained to outsmart most crawl players 19:45:11 except for explicitly loud things like monkeys, scrolls, and gongs 19:45:17 <|amethyst> probably could get several publications out of it :) 19:45:23 Crawl MMO, one player controls the PC and everyone else controls 1 monster 19:45:39 <|amethyst> minmay: do you remember Excitebike? 19:45:57 Not to a meaningful degree I'm afraid, I don't think I ever played it 19:46:14 <|amethyst> it's a 1P side-view motorcycle racing game for the NES 19:46:26 Well yes I know that 19:46:34 Just don't recall ever playing it myself 19:46:42 <|amethyst> when I was little, in order to keep my brother from complaining that I was hogging the Nintendo 19:46:56 <|amethyst> I told him that the P2 controller controlled the opponent on the blue bike 19:47:21 <|amethyst> he didn't seem to mind too much that it didn't really seem to follow his keypresses 19:47:33 <|amethyst> because the controls weren't that responsive-feeling to begin with 19:47:45 <|amethyst> s/keypresses/buttonpresses/ 19:47:52 what scoundrel made this lousy bazaar with just two shops??? (it was me) 19:50:41 |amethyst: It's like when you pretend to be playing the demo on a keyboard, but in reverse 19:51:17 <|amethyst> ha 19:51:41 !source _change_skill_level 19:51:42 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc#L269 19:55:47 I realize now that my use of "demo" and "keyboard" in this context was ambiguous, I was talking about music keyboard demo songs like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-9gEs0CYOY 19:56:29 <|amethyst> I was thinking Doom demos, but that works even better 19:57:35 <|amethyst> see also Milli Vanilli 19:58:11 |amethyst: there's not so many people on Earth who know both Hesiod and Milli Vanilli! 19:58:34 <|amethyst> I bet it's more than you think :) 19:58:59 "Girl you know it's true..." 20:00:46 |amethyst: like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8o46Ki7EY 20:17:45 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 20:26:56 -!- neizenel is now known as nikheizen 20:43:23 I have been informed that etrian odyssey has a quadruple wielding class 20:43:40 https://rhematic.net/eo5_lp/masurao/ 20:47:25 I considered implementing an updated version of octopodes for tome4 20:47:39 there would have been a regular version that got 8 ring slots, and a megaoctopus that could octuple-wield 20:48:43 ! 20:51:38 It's not especially difficult from an implementation standpoint but would have gotten old to play very quickly 21:17:24 "How can a bee have more HP then Orc Priest? Com'on they need to be re-balanced." 21:40:35 CanOfWorms: increase bee hp 21:40:43 spawn more bees 21:40:51 rename orc priests -> bee priests 21:40:54 problem solved 21:41:00 you mean meliai? 21:41:06 beogh -> beeogh 21:42:02 orc mines -> hive 21:42:31 then remove the hive again 21:43:14 whoas 21:43:18 brutal 21:58:31 beeogh, but unironically 21:59:00 killer bee species coming soon? 21:59:16 BeAr 21:59:22 confirmed ok 21:59:38 BeEE 22:00:08 BeAr^S, BeAs^T 22:00:35 >sif on an artificer 22:00:39 wtf are u doin 22:00:58 becoming a plural 22:02:46 BeGl 22:31:59 03Floodkiller02 {Brannock} 07* 0.20-a0-961-g171cb2e: Add a new species: Bultungin 10(3 months ago, 20 files, 199+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/171cb2ef636b 22:31:59 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-962-ge003528: Give Bultungins fangs 10(8 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e003528337ed 22:31:59 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-963-g4122960: Alphabetize species-data.h 10(8 hours ago, 1 file, 48+ 48-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/41229602529b 22:31:59 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-964-g7dbbd50: Document Bultungin's custom XP table 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 17+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7dbbd503fcda 22:31:59 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-965-g9495522: Use get_los_radius() for item detection 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9495522b523c 22:31:59 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-966-g3dbb393: Update Bultungin descriptions 10(31 minutes ago, 2 files, 15+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3dbb393a05f9 22:35:44 omg!!! 22:36:06 puppers in crawl??????? 22:36:43 are they going to be called puppers in hellcrawl 22:36:53 I am informed that kobolds are already pups 22:36:57 I thought kobolds were baby lizards 22:37:06 congratulations Floodkiller and Brannock 22:37:16 oh, don't give me any credit 22:37:19 He came up with the idea and did 95% of the work 22:37:24 I just cleaned up a few rough edges 22:37:27 you gave a lot of feedback and championed the PR for the past few weeks 22:38:16 thanks for doing the cleanup and the push, though! 22:39:19 side note: this addition pushes us to 27 total species 22:39:28 With Mummies receiving the 'A' key on species selection 22:39:39 I guess species aren't as hard-capped as gods are, via ancient Crawl decree 22:39:49 but future species have a very high bar to meet 22:40:14 no, this is an excuse to remove hu/ko 22:40:33 I lean towards Ha over Ko, tbh 22:40:48 That's not to say I have plans for removing any species, though! 22:41:35 too late, I told ##crawl you did 22:41:48 alexjurkiewicz, it's too bad it didn't happen this year but if you want to polish up the achievement joke commit then I can help get it up and going for 2018 april's fol 22:41:57 assuming we haven't died in nuclear hellfire by then, of course 22:42:26 I sort of hope trump does launch the nukes, finally crawl will return to australian hands then 22:42:26 remove ha, unironically 22:42:40 iirc Lasty's ranged reform ends up removing Slings 22:42:47 between that and mutations there's not much room for Halfling 22:42:48 coding hellcrawl from the burned out husk of washington dc 22:42:59 but sure, ping me in feb/march next year and I'll do the cleanup then :) 22:43:09 adding another line to my far-too-long crawl-todo.txt 22:43:09 there isn't much room for halfling even with those things imo 22:43:25 given it was discussed two months ago and everyone still forgot this year doesn't make me want to pre-do the work :P 22:43:38 I think it's less "everyone forgot" as it was "no one wanted to commit to the work" 22:43:47 crawl development seems in a doldrums for the past six~ months 22:43:51 that's fair enough 22:47:26 new thread for BoltUnguents? 22:49:09 feel free to make one if you want, otherwise I probably will just bump and edit the cyno one at work tomorrow when there is downtime 22:49:54 I posted in the cyno thread already 22:50:00 a new thread for discussion could be good though 22:50:12 barachim didn't get a thread, though... 22:50:14 nor did new mutation potions.... 22:50:23 they were pretty well received, though, so I'm not sure they needed it 22:50:43 make a thread about drac ghost breath 22:51:09 CXX spl-goditem.o 22:51:09 spl-goditem.cc: In function ‘int detect_items(int)’: 22:51:10 spl-goditem.cc:496:37: error: ‘get_los_radius’ was not declared in this scope 22:51:12 map_radius = get_los_radius(); 22:51:15 ^ 22:51:17 spl-goditem.cc:503:65: error: ‘get_los_radius’ was not declared in this scope 22:51:20 map_radius = min(you.piety / 20 - 1, get_los_radius()); 22:51:23 ^ 22:51:24 is that a hard or soft error? 22:51:25 Makefile:1550: recipe for target 'spl-goditem.o' failed 22:51:26 I was able to compile 22:51:28 make: *** [spl-goditem.o] Error 1 22:51:30 hard 22:51:30 guess I forgot to include a file 22:51:32 compiling master 22:51:51 2017-04-07 02:49:03,735: ERROR: Failed to run ('nice', '-n', '19', 'make', '-j', '1', 'GAME=dcss', 'INSTALL_UGRP=games:games', 'USE_DGAMELAUNCH=y', 'WEBTILES=y', 'WEBDIR=/web', 'STRIP=true', 'EXTERNAL_FLAGS_L="-g"', 'DESTDIR=/opt/dgl-chroot/usr/lib/dcss-trunk/0.20-a0-966-g3dbb393', 'install'), output: make -C rltiles all ARCH=x86_64-linux-gnu TILES=y 22:52:10 yeah I need to include los.cc 22:52:22 ? 22:52:46 los.h I hope 22:52:46 er, yes 22:53:29 oh I see, I made the change, but didn't save the file when I compiled I think 22:53:32 then saved it and committed 22:53:40 w h o o p s 22:54:05 I've done that while changing things, and compiled twice before I figured it out 22:54:18 unironic same 22:54:19 early warning CPO to the rescue 22:55:38 lemme know when you push the fix 22:56:09 Just waiting on local compilation to confirm it works 22:56:20 dogz 22:56:38 I'm excited for this species 22:56:46 We haven't had any species that've ever interacted this sharply with the skill system 22:57:08 I think Bu will really push players to come up with creative solutions to combat, especially later on 22:57:34 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-967-g62cfa5d: Fix compilation (alexjurkiewicz) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/62cfa5d936da 22:58:15 what's the interaction with ash and oka still boost? no difference? 22:58:20 Floodkiller? 22:58:30 I know they do interact properly with manuals 22:58:34 didn't think to test heroism/knowledge 22:58:47 heroism grants straight skill levels i think 22:59:04 i think ash boost is affected by apts in some way 22:59:05 should work properly though, since Bu have a base +0 aptitude for everything that affects aptitude levels and such 22:59:13 so ash should work for bu the same way it works for hu 22:59:24 (with bu bonuses/maluses being calculated in) 22:59:25 cool 22:59:34 ug 22:59:36 why 22:59:38 does make oka very good for them i imagine 22:59:55 yeah, ash and oka boosts modify the skill level directly 23:01:47 can't decide whether to go for another win with bult 23:01:56 do you think it's harder or easier now, Floodkiller ? 23:02:30 what version was the last one you won with? 23:02:51 the "original", I think? +2 all apts, hard cap at 14 skill 23:03:29 -!- olscumpy is now known as rumflump 23:03:54 it will likely be harder than the hard cap version 23:03:57 rumflump, current version accelerates to 7 much faster but is significantly slower after that 23:04:09 they are on CPO now 23:04:33 gammafunk, what are you asking about? 23:04:33 I'm imagining that current ver will be theoretically easier bc better earlygame but harder in practice for most players 23:04:38 maybe I am wrong though 23:04:41 so there's not any effective dampening of their skill training, is there 23:05:20 !source skills.cc:1522 23:05:21 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc#L1522 23:05:23 gotta win a lot of other species still, but thanks to online scoreboards my cyno win feels fake :\ 23:05:28 gammafunk, compare the numbers for levels 11+ 23:05:37 they become very expensive very dramatically quickly 23:06:24 and so people are just going to be training skills a lot just as they would normally 23:07:18 I spent about two hours testing this out and I do not think this is the case. A few players will be able to scrape their levels up to 12 or 14, but they'll recognize that the effectiveness is rapidly diminished compared to training up other skills 23:07:23 I could be wrong, of course 23:07:34 I'm happy to experiment with these things and see how players react to them and how they end up playing out in the wild 23:07:51 s/effectiveness/efficiency/ 23:08:33 of course, I tend towards optimism 23:09:18 that new hire smile 23:09:26 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-967-g62cfa5d (34) 23:09:57 players will be able to get their levels up to 12 or 14 just fine 23:10:25 rumflump, to modify someone else's pull request you'd need write access to their repository. this isn't regularly given out as far as I can tell 23:10:54 ahhh, of course 23:10:54 I think you can still do it but it has to be approved by the person who made the PR, so a PR for a PR really 23:11:27 I haven't been around as long as some of the others here, but generally what happens is we fetch the PR into local, modify and add to it, then merge. or just merge then modify 23:13:16 i think maintainers can now edit PRs by default? or at least there's an opt-in button on the PR UI 23:13:42 gammafunk, if players are reliably doing that then the XP table is easily modified to have the stepdowns start at level 6 instead of 7. (One level difference makes an actually pretty dramatic impact.) I think the core idea of the race, fast-then-slow learners, is sufficiently strong enough to be trunked and further tweaked 23:13:50 again, this is my optimism speaking 23:14:04 well I'm not debating what your opinions are 23:14:10 those are your own 23:14:29 or you could keep on making subtly backhanded replies to me. :) 23:14:47 mmhmm 23:15:26 fr: when they get put to sleep by dream sheep/aizul the message is "sleep tight, pupper" 23:15:55 "you feel sleepy, too sleepy to even turn around in circles on your bed before lying down!!!" 23:16:06 true pupper nightmare 23:16:23 Not only the problem with the central design not working in terms of being an actual limit 23:16:33 MPA's original complain about micromanagement was never addressed 23:17:10 has MPA played one yet? 23:17:12 It was addressed, at length, in the PR after I closed it. It was bunk, much like MPA's other prejudices. 23:17:36 It likely was very much the opposite of 'bunk' 23:17:38 They're not any more micromanagey than the current skilling system. 23:18:44 I hate to say it but Brannock is actually right about this point 23:18:56 currently all species already have a breakpoint at every integer skill level 23:19:02 for skill cost 23:19:05 The current system is "Is the next level too expensive to get, relative to the other skills I want?" This si still exactly true for Bultungin 23:19:24 yeah, but increasing more of that isn't desireable really 23:19:28 ofc when that gets fixed for other species it will be a bult-specific problem 23:19:52 I can't envision a system where it would be fixed for other species, and the fix isn't applicable to Bu 23:21:53 The cat is out of the bag on weird food costs, doesn't mean we're trying to add more of those 23:22:48 It does amplify the existing breakpoints but the way you micromanage them is quite literally exactly the same as you do it for every other species in the game 23:22:59 no different, no more frequent, no less frequent 23:22:59