00:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:25 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-850-ge5a7832 (34) 00:10:10 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:50 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:14:27 -!- n1k is now known as n1 00:16:11 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:05 -!- vermi has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:23:50 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 00:25:49 |amethyst, we're at like 3 academics at this point? I think just amalloy (to my knowledge) is at Google 00:25:58 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:00 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:02 of people who are active since the time I joined, anyway 00:26:54 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:55 there were 3 academics at least when I joined, so I don't think 3 is accurate 00:27:17 I am operating on incomplete information! 00:27:31 you are? 00:27:48 well, yeah 00:28:10 dpeg, neil, elliptic were all academics when I joined 00:28:23 depending on how you define academic the list would be a lot larger 00:28:52 isn't pf google 00:28:55 oh I didn't know about elliptic 00:29:03 was for a while, no longer is 00:29:07 but google isn't academic 00:29:14 yeah PF is working indie now 00:29:25 bh was also with google, not sure if still is 00:29:42 I think quite a number of devs have been in academia historically 00:30:28 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:33:25 gammafunk, are you working on anything right now for crawl? 00:34:48 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:29 <|amethyst> I think bh is or was at Google too 00:39:07 <|amethyst> my department chair did his last sabbatical (just before he became chair) at Google 00:41:26 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:45:42 -!- Menche has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:00 -!- thurin_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.7] 00:55:40 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:57:07 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:57:47 -!- thurin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:16 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:55 elliptic is actually an entrepreneur/inventor (shoelaces iirc) 01:14:36 -!- ZiBuDo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:12 -!- Dracunos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:56 -!- Dracunos has joined ##crawl-dev 01:18:10 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 01:18:23 -!- Dracunos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:57 -!- Dracunos has joined ##crawl-dev 01:19:54 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-850-ge5a7832 (34) 01:26:42 -!- JoeltCo has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:44:17 -!- twelwe has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:52 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 01:49:22 elliptic invented shoelaces? 01:49:28 how old *is* he? 01:53:47 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:55:11 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 01:55:29 -!- kaiza has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:57 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-850-ge5a7832 01:58:05 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:55 -!- Meamyr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:09:27 -!- yesno__ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:12:28 -!- ProzacElf_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:17:19 -!- thurin_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:36 -!- thurin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:49 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:35 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:53 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:43:02 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:49 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:45:51 -!- bgiannan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:50:19 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 02:54:48 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-850-ge5a7832 02:56:17 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 02:59:59 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:01 -!- sage1234 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03:01 -!- thurin has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:26 -!- thurin has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:23 whenever I'm thinking about making a new species, I don't look at cerol's guide, I might end up skimming and missing a step. I just look at pf's initial barachians commit 03:09:30 -!- knu_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:17 it's so complete (except for a tile). as long as you open every single file that's mentioned in that commit, you probably won't miss a step 03:11:18 -!- rhovland has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:13:10 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:58 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:34:15 -!- wasd64 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:41:58 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:14 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:58 -!- Perryman has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:11 -!- orbisvicis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:03:32 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:06:21 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16:13 -!- fazizzz is now known as fazisi 04:20:46 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:31 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:22:37 -!- debo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:41 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:39:31 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:41:22 -!- wicksfield has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:27 -!- wasd64 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:47:13 -!- koboldina has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:51:09 -!- hittemvvvmobile has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:04 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:42 -!- mibert has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:35 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:16:20 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:43 -!- harambe has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:29:29 -!- hittemvvmobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:48 -!- jefus- has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:31 -!- jeefus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:09 -!- mibe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:05 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10:45 -!- Fixer has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:01 -!- Lavandula has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:36:20 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:24 !messages 06:36:25 (1/1) Brannock said (20h 15m 50s ago): oh, I meant assuming new noisy walljump, sorry for being unclear 06:41:43 -!- genericpseudonym has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:44:45 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:49:01 -!- mibert has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:50:27 -!- hittemvvvmobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:00 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:04 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57:10 -!- hittemvvmobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:45 -!- hittemvvvmobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:23 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:56 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:29:28 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:31:15 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:10 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:53:37 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:01 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:20 !seen chequers 08:29:20 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:29:20 I last saw chequers at Tue Dec 6 05:30:59 2016 UTC (13w 3d 7h 58m 21s ago) saying 'gammafunk: i'mnot sure irc nicks can be long enough' on ##crawl-dev. 08:31:40 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:32:51 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:27 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:53 !tell chequers I have some ideas about Bodarch. Tell me if you're interested. I think the concept can work out. 08:37:53 dpeg: OK, I'll let chequers know. 08:37:58 !messages 08:37:59 (1/2) moritz_ said (1w 2d 17h 50m 33s ago): Hey hey! Ich bin auch aus Deutschland. Ich bin blind und wollte mich mal hier melden um mit ein paar von euch vielleicht zu versuchen, Crawl etwas barrierefreier zu machen, weil es im großen und ganzen eigentlich schon ziemlich zugänglich ist. 08:38:14 oh, this is so moving 08:38:36 !seen moritz_ 08:38:36 I last saw moritz_ at Thu Mar 9 17:05:15 2017 UTC (20h 33m 22s ago) quitting, saying 'Client Quit'. 08:38:37 -!- Fixer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:18 -!- Fixer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:40:25 !messages 08:40:25 (1/1) Brannock said (21h 22m 21s ago): when you're around I submitted something to CRD for open discussion, I think it needs your approval to be disseminated 08:41:02 Brannock: sorry for flaking on this. I get a bunch of spam c-r-d mails per day, so I only bother to sort it out once per week. Thanks for the heads up, looking at it now. 08:41:16 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:41 !tell moritz_ Ja, das unterstütze ich vollkommen! Kannst du mir eine E-Mail schreiben? dploog@math.fu-berlin.de 08:41:42 dpeg: OK, I'll let moritz_ know. 08:44:03 !tell Brannock There was no on-topic mail in the batch! :( I cleared the whole list, please re-send as soon as possible. It should not get list this time, with a clean slate. Sorry for the mess! 08:44:03 dpeg: OK, I'll let brannock know. 09:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:56 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 09:08:27 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18:01 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:18:13 -!- doy has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:18:24 -!- doy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:37 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 09:45:45 |amethyst: are you academia as well? 09:46:16 I think I knew dpeg was, but didn't realize there were others 09:47:55 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:13 advil: I think he is. He keeps mentioning how he poisons^H^H^H^H^Henlightens the students. 09:57:15 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:58:30 lol 09:58:37 -!- glaas has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.7] 09:59:58 dpeg: I think brannock's email already went to the list? at least I got one from that list that is about books 10:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:32 I wonder if moritz_ has quite figured out irc clients -- they always log on, say hi, and log off like a minute later 10:01:46 possibly one of us could engage with them on their forum 10:02:50 advil: yes, I'd like to get him to talk here 10:03:27 I started to work on what I thought would be a simple change based on that discussion and it wasn't at all simple :-/ 10:04:38 I'm not sure how well irc is working with their screen reader, specifically 10:13:11 advil: yes, that's why I offered email. 10:13:21 ah I see 10:14:56 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:55 <|amethyst> BTW, one thing moritz asked about was the ability to display/save a plain-text map of the current level 10:24:06 <|amethyst> # does that but it's undocumented 10:24:25 <|amethyst> (the .map file; .lst is also undocumented) 10:24:54 <|amethyst> relative coordinates in the direction chooser sounds like a good option 10:25:55 <|amethyst> also, does click-to-travel work when monsters are around? if so that could be exposed in console as well 10:27:20 <|amethyst> s/direction chooser/&, ctrl-x, monster list, etc./ 10:31:34 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:35:55 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:36:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:28 |amethyst: good points 10:48:08 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:27 -!- pantaril has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:59:16 -!- adelrune has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:40 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:02:35 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:11 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:54 -!- Lasty has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:51 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:44 -!- sneakyness has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:40 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:10 -!- nattefrost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:37 -!- Fixer_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:57 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:32:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:54 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:45:53 someone is reporting they got a regeneration mutation as a DD: https://redd.it/5ymieu 11:48:50 -!- inire has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:50:38 <|amethyst> which leads me to spot another bug 11:54:06 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-851-g162479b: Make no regen mutation conflict with fast regen (MrMonch). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/162479b5a514 11:54:06 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-852-g07130c9: Re-align mutation conflict table. 10(36 seconds ago, 1 file, 28+ 28-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/07130c93c7ba 11:54:51 <|amethyst> other bug is fixed in the same commit 11:55:26 <|amethyst> oh, I guess it wouldn't trade off 11:56:50 <|amethyst> but DD were prevented from getting the slow movement mutation (even in wizmode) 11:57:58 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:30 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-852-g07130c9 (34) 12:05:45 -!- Menche has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:19 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:08:18 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:27 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-852-g07130c9 (34) 12:13:05 |amethyst: are you seeing problems with CDO's ssl cert? 12:18:04 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:27 -!- Fixer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:05 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:08 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:34 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:22:54 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 12:39:36 !tell pleasingfungus To me the rankings between and within species lists made sense. Could you elaborate on how you think they could be made less arbitrary from your perspective? Having Human at the top of Intermediate is definitely a goal for me. 12:39:36 Lasty_: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 12:40:24 -!- metiscus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:46 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:39 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:31 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:32 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:12 -!- rj54x has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:57:08 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:39 -!- ZiBuDo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:59 -!- snux has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:04 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:55 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:42 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:11 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:35 -!- rumflump has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:56 Lasty_: So you think that Merfolk is simpler/more approachable than Gargoyle, Tengu is simpler than Deep Elf...? 13:23:56 Pleasingfungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:25:18 i feel like you could make just as good arguments for either side for a ton of these rankings - they seem fundamentally arbitrary 13:25:38 I don't think they can be made less arbitrary unless we redesign the species themselves 13:25:46 (which isn't desirable!) 13:26:38 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 13:26:48 -!- surr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:24 -!- surr_ is now known as surr 13:29:18 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.20-a0-853-gabbfcfc: Barachians -> Barachim 10(2 days ago, 6 files, 14+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/abbfcfc3b881 13:29:43 coming up on the 2-month anniversary of 'frog branch will be removed' 13:32:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:51 -!- ldf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:17 !tell hellmonk http://colinmorris.github.io/blog/dcss_players namesearch yourself 13:35:18 Pleasingfungus: OK, I'll let hellmonk know. 13:38:16 -!- wicksfield has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:36 memesearch? 13:42:36 Dracunos: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:42:56 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:59 -!- surr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:57 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:29 -!- koboldina has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:54:36 Pleasingfungus: I think merfolk is simpler than gargoyle 13:54:55 and tengu is easier than DE though not really simpler 13:55:28 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:28 Are you arguing that the current ordering of species is non-arbitrary? 13:55:43 no 13:59:10 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:49 you know it's a good data analysis of winrate when it doesn't uncover elliptic 14:05:48 ` Being able to distinguish the mediocre from the truly abysmal will turn out to be useful - in a future post, I'll be using these smoothed winrates to mythbust some Crawl newbie traps.` 14:05:48 this is a little worrying 14:06:18 he's gonna teach us all 14:06:23 how this here game is played 14:06:47 oh god 14:06:48 winrates 14:07:04 Pleasingfungus, that commit still has 'Barachian' 14:07:13 oh, I see, nevermind 14:07:14 don't worry minmay, he's gonna make it real 14:07:16 do you mean the adjective form, the enum, or the comments? 14:07:27 yeah, the adjective form, then I realized what it was 14:07:31 with the power of ~*~*~*~statistics~*~*~*~ 14:08:09 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:09:24 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-853-gabbfcfc (34) 14:10:26 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: witty quit message goes here] 14:11:05 -!- hittemvvvmobile has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:50 -!- kobby has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:26:02 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 14:27:30 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:01 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:45 -!- Brannock_ has left ##crawl-dev 15:05:49 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:12:03 -!- mroovka has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 15:15:27 -!- rumflump has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:08 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:24 -!- Jetnerd has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:40 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:49:47 -!- THERetroGamerNY has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 15:56:55 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:04 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:43 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:28:35 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 16:34:43 -!- flow has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:05 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:42:02 -!- AngelaSmythe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:34 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:51 -!- wheals_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:34 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:58 -!- mobydollar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:06:46 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:08:07 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 17:12:16 anyone else getting ssl cert failures on tavern? 17:14:36 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:15:19 -!- yesno__ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:23:11 checking 17:23:20 yes 17:23:51 Napkin: I and others are seeing SSL cert failures from CDO 17:24:16 yes, startssl, didn't make sense to prolong 17:24:27 i'll do let's encrypt tomorrow or sunday or monday 17:24:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:26:45 !tell pleasingfungus yes and yes 17:26:46 Lasty: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:26:46 Lasty: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 17:27:26 Brannock: more egos than simple resistance seems like a very good thing to me 17:29:34 Napkin: thanks 17:33:00 fr: ego of reluctance 17:33:03 resistance is too strong 17:33:25 You swing idlely at the hydra. You stop swinging half-way. You look bored. 17:34:00 More curse-punishments. People will love it! 17:43:04 Lasty: I will! 17:43:32 -!- iceiceice has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:44:04 haha, indeed 17:45:52 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:02 Lasty: when you're in Berlin, we should talk a bit about curses. There's so much that can be done there... 17:46:14 dpeg: yeah, definitely. 17:46:35 sacrifice sobriety: every monster that hits you gets Trample 17:47:05 I'm currently leaning towards non-sticky curses on some otherwise-above-average items, which transfer to the player if the item is used. The curse then applies some penalty until an XP timer is fulfilled. 17:47:13 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:26 oh that sounds so much more interesting than the current system. 17:47:27 e.g., curse of half XP, curse of half skill gain, curse of increased damage . . . 17:47:33 would this accompany a reduction in ?rc 17:47:41 Brannock: yeah, or even removal of ?rc 17:47:53 Ash would need to be updated to match of course 17:47:54 I think reduction is fine, a la new mutation. decide if you REALLY want to burn it on this curse 17:48:01 or save it for something nastier 17:48:07 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:48:53 oh dpeg , do you use skype? moritz initially asked to be added on skype 17:49:23 how common would you want curses and ?rc to be in that model? 17:50:33 Lasty and dpeg, sitting in some Berlin cafe...talking about curses??? 17:51:05 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:51:20 gammafunk: jeaaaaalous? 17:51:31 ....no!...... 17:51:49 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:41 gammafunk and sif muna, sitting in a 7 17:53:20 hmm, Lasty, thinking about the implications of newcursing, one thing I would like to see go away/be addressed is ?enchant/?brand, because it encourages zeroing in on a specific base type (once you've settled on an overall weapon type), sitting on it and enchanting it up rather than keep on trying other weapons looking for upgrades 17:53:34 especially with new cursing meaning I want to be more conservative about trying things on 17:54:07 kobold iguana ball serpent ball serpent iguana ghoul goblin 17:54:09 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 17:54:20 once you have a broad axe, no reason to try other non-artefact axes (assuming axe/shield) and risk being cursed. just enchant it up and then brand it 17:54:30 fr: ball serpent 17:54:37 ball OF serpents 17:54:40 rumflump: I don't really, but I guess for a blind player I'd be willing to skype. 17:54:44 conjuration/summoning 17:54:45 also, since when are iguanas on i, or ghouls on g 17:55:36 -!- jefus- has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:58 well, up to you. I don't have his info or anything, I just remembered that was one of the things the first time he joined here 17:56:06 oh, right, those should be spriggans 17:56:09 but ghouls are on n 17:56:22 rumflump: I !told him my email address, hopefully Moritz will send me a message. 17:57:20 er right, ball pyton 17:57:22 python 17:59:16 Brannock: yeah, that's crawl weapons for ya; not every cursed thing would have to be a weapon tho. Armour is also an option, but also hypothetically books, misc items, wands. 17:59:28 I leave out scrolls and potions just because I don't want to de-stack them 17:59:33 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:02 In general players will experiment with armor/jewelry more often than weapons, though 18:00:06 Brannock: but my curse idea outlined above doesn't assume that curses are a "gotcha" for the ID game 18:00:08 since it's harder to find "the best" 18:00:30 it assumes that the cursed items will be clearly labeled but be tempting to the player 18:00:43 right, that's part of why I started thinking about implications 18:00:49 if I have +7 broad axe why would this be tempting? 18:01:02 but if I found a +3 broad axe and know I need to look for new weapons if I want upgrades... 18:01:05 Lasty: yes, double-edged in general is a good way to go. I've been using some randarts with a negative property, and it was a lot of fun. 18:01:33 Brannock: how would you solve that? 18:02:01 more varied item generation combined with strong reduction in ?ew/?brand. I'm not sure it's solvable though in Crawl's system 18:02:04 perhaps in another game 18:02:24 also, perhaps think about higher randart generation rates 18:02:30 FWIW, I pretty frequently end up with under-enchanted armor or weapons in games I play 18:02:51 btw, is there concensus that high AC is overpowered? 18:02:56 yes, my previous win was using a randart over a base weapon that I could have enchanted to max and branded 18:02:59 !log . 18:03:00 1753. brannock, XL4 DsWz, T:3449: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/brannock/morgue-brannock-20170307-014026.txt 18:03:02 oops 18:03:03 !log . won 18:03:04 90. brannock, XL27 DsEE, T:104072: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/brannock/morgue-brannock-20170305-193913.txt 18:03:21 oh, I'm 10 away from century player? 18:03:21 should work on that 18:03:21 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.20-a0-853-gabbfcfc (34) 18:03:24 the discussion places seem to indicate it, and I played a BaFi^O, and it felt really strong to me, too (I usually don't play such straightforward characters) 18:03:25 dpeg: hi 18:03:33 dpeg: i changed irc nick 18:03:50 alexjurkiewicz: Hi there! Feel like talking Bodarch? 18:04:10 ??century player 18:04:11 century player ~ centuryplayers[1/3]: A player with at least 100 wins. 18:04:18 anyway Lasty don't take what I'm saying as any solid proposal, just musing on how crawl's inventory system is approaching solved state 18:04:24 -!- hittemvvvhard has quit [Quit: ik ga slapen] 18:04:36 I like the whole "pick up and try things from the floor looking for upgrades" 18:04:39 dpeg: yes 18:04:43 and I think the player hits "I've found the best I can find" too early 18:05:31 dpeg: I think high AC is a smidge OP 18:05:43 I think high AC is itself fine 18:05:47 it's just a bit too easy to get to that point 18:06:07 Lasty, Brannock: I was implicitly askign if we should aim for some AC nerf for 0.20. 18:06:17 not for 0.20, but maybe for future versions 18:06:29 alexjurkiewicz: I think the basic premise can work. I am not sure about flat aptitudes. For examples, on casters you'd naturally try to *evade* aspects by focusing on Spc/Con (and whatever skills are out of aspects). This can be addressed with an appropriately negative Con apt, for example. 18:06:30 dpeg: I think the first AC nerf we should do is removing GDR from the game completely 18:06:51 ??gdr 18:06:51 gdr[1/4]: "Guaranteed damage reduction" versus melee attacks, conferred by body armour. Monsters do not have GDR, only players. If you're making equipment decisions based on this, please reconsider. 18:06:56 where's the pithy GDR entry 18:06:58 ??gdr[4 18:06:58 gdr[4/4]: robe/animal skin=0% leather=14% troll leather=19% ring/steam dragon=24% scale/mottled=28% swamp=31% chain/fire=34% ice=37% plate/pearl/storm=39% gold=44% crystal=48% 18:07:42 dpeg: yeah, that would make sense. flat apts are not a design goal 18:08:01 alexjurkiewicz: Secondly, perhaps it would make sense to make later aspects work harder, so that you really feel like that change at XL12 is going to affect you. 18:08:31 you mean, make aspects affect the player more? 18:08:43 Lasty, if you have the time to tackle a couple design issues, there's the email I sent out about goldified spellbooks and the Cyno PR 18:08:54 alexjurkiewicz: yes, and in particular more as XL goes up 18:09:01 -!- exant has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:09:17 alexjurkiewicz: early on, you have no leeway to adapt, later on, you do 18:10:26 adding some XL scaling to effects might be possible. I'm leery of adding too much complexity in terms of scaling though 18:11:05 Brannock: sure 18:11:25 alexjurkiewicz: and the third idea I had when reading your proposal: aspects could affect skills via aptitudes (manual style) or directly (draining/Ash style). I have no idea which might be better. 18:12:09 Brannock: I like the idea of goldifying spellbooks a lot, but I don't particularly like the interface fiddliness of having to read them before adding them to M. I think if Trog book-burning is worth keeping (and I don't really care about it personally) it should just be Trog burning every book you see as soon as you see it. 18:12:26 dpeg: ah yeah. I like that idea too. I wasn't sure if it was stepping on cyno a bit though 18:12:29 yes, I got outvoted heavily on reading before adding and dropped it 18:12:34 stealing Floodkiller's thunder before it's even merged 18:12:47 Brannock: is this the email you !told me about? 18:12:49 yes 18:12:52 did you receive it? 18:13:20 Brannock: just now, I have no idea why it took so long. 18:13:26 re: the cyno species, I haven't tried them, but the goal (fast early game training followed by slow late game training) does not seem like a good one to me. The species also seems really complicated, tho maybe it's not as bad when you try it. 18:13:59 it is not very complicated in my experience. +4 until 6, +0 until 12, -4 until 18, -8 until 27 18:14:02 I have a completely different idea about books, and it won't be liked, but I will spell it out in a reply to Brannock :) 18:15:47 Brannock: it seems like the species would be extremely easy in the early game, then slow its growth right around the time it has enough skills to safely tackle most of a 3 rune game. That doesn't really make for an interesting early or late game, IMO. 18:16:12 maybe the scaling should be more severe? 18:16:21 fr: trog can just directly set spellcasters on fire 18:16:28 also Floodkiller if you're here we're discussing Cyno 18:16:50 here now 18:18:05 training from 12->mindelay with -4 apts would be pretty... ruff 18:19:15 alexjurkiewicz: which is a great feature of the species, I think 18:19:22 one thing I considered for Cyno, if the "breakpoints" was truly a non-starter, was to have a custom XP table 18:19:28 but honestly I think the breakpoints are much cleaner than doing that 18:19:33 Brannock: IMO for fast training to be interesting, the power level as to plateau really low, like 10 skill 18:19:56 but then as others have pointed out that species is just randomly unable to do certain things like cast high level spells 18:20:45 alexjurkiewicz: it's not at all rough if you're wielding something that caps out at 16 or less. Demon whip caps at 12! 18:21:02 yes, Cyno would be incentivized to go 1H 18:21:16 and cast lower level spells 18:21:20 The fundamental issue is that skill > 15 rarely a good idea 18:21:32 only a handful of spell schools and large weapons justify it 18:21:56 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:05 was it considered to tie aptitudes to XL rather than the skill's level? You can learn a lot fast when you're young, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks 18:23:28 I proposed that with almost that exact justification 18:23:33 the game already does something like that under the hood i think? 18:23:43 the more skills you know the harder it gets to pick skills up 18:24:00 it does, but it's mostly to keep the scaling sane because of how large the XP each Depths-and-deeper enemies give 18:24:18 anyway I think XL-tying would lead to situations where characters get unrecoverably messed up by bad skill decisions early on 18:24:46 also it leads to inflexibility later based on what items drop to allow training of skills 18:24:53 it might encourage diving though, which is good? 18:28:33 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 18:29:10 Brannock: I avoided a straight custom XP table because it starts becoming very hard to properly communicate xp costs to the player vs the current breakpoints built into the table that match up to existing aptitudes (thus, less confusion as to why a skill costs X compared to any other species) 18:29:10 yeah 18:30:34 alexjurkiewicz: that leads to the issue that I encountered with a different iteration I did not push, in that the player is encouraged to 'top off' their skills every time the cap gets raised, so it would only make sense to implement that system if I also got rid of the ability to train skills and just straight up gave the skill XP per level (and it would be tough to get the right scaling for that) 18:30:52 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:03 because a linear scale would feel awful to play, it would have to be a custom curve 18:32:07 yeah, raising cap is awful for that reason :( 18:37:19 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:53:19 if the difficulty is too easy at the moment with the current scaling, it can always start at a lower aptitude (such as going +3/-1/-5/-9); however, I pushed it at it's current state because I wanted to avoid overtuning the species to experienced players and leaving it unapproachable to new/casual players 18:53:59 its* 18:55:21 Floodkiller: what's the goal of the species? 18:58:13 the primary goal (when it was initially designed with the static skill cap) was strong early game/difficult late game, with the secondary goal of encouraging players to spread skills around vs focusing a few individual skills to high levels 18:58:35 -!- vermi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:53 just a bit of input: I'm seeing a similar problem here as early Barachim had, where they had slow movement/leaping and *nothing else*. Once more stuff was added onto the race they started feeling more like a complete species. Compare Vine Stalker implementation as well, they had a bunch of stuff going for them differentiating them. Could have made them simply no-heal and regen++++ but they wouldn't have been as popular/successful 19:00:09 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:27 I like the idea of short attention span and what you're trying to get at here 19:00:45 but the species will need more than that eventually (and I don't think item detect/sInv is enough) 19:00:54 (nor would fur) 19:02:49 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:54 one thing that I've felt would help fit the theme, and might make up for lowering the initial aptitude to better discourage high skill leveling, was a 'howl to Cause Fear' ability. It could be either scaled to XL or a static power level, and would have the cost of either Breath/Exhaust + a loud noise (25-40). 19:03:04 out of suggestions I've seen thus far 19:04:07 short attention, item detect/sInv, howling? could work yeah 19:04:11 I'd lean towards Breath over Exh 19:04:20 arbitarily 19:04:53 if the noise is loud enough, I think Breath would be fine 19:05:18 ??scroll of fear 19:05:18 scroll of fear[1/5]: Scares monsters away from your current position, with a chance to save based on MR. Only affects living, non-berserk monsters. They can still use ranged attack while fleeing. Also a level 4 hexes spell "Cause Fear" with similar effect (same as the scroll at 134 power and above). 19:05:21 I think Howl would check HD rather than MR 19:05:40 check HD vs XL? 19:05:44 -!- dextur has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:05:58 are we talking about doom howl 19:11:48 more early game power sounds like the opposite of what cyno needs 19:12:10 yeah, probably 19:12:18 any suggestions for something to help midgame or lategame? 19:13:57 aren't they already reasonably good midgame/lategame, currently? 19:14:00 shouldn't they suck lategame 19:14:06 i thought that was the whole point 19:14:41 Doesnty: even if it is, is that a good point? 19:14:59 well i don't think they do under any version of it i've seen 19:15:08 you just have to be willing to branch out 19:16:34 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Quit: Excess flood] 19:17:02 Floodkiller: I think you need to find a way to make them have a difficult late game. Nothing I've heard so far sounds at all like it would make the late game difficult. 19:17:25 on the subject of flavor, they should probably be carnivorous 19:17:28 since they're dogs 19:17:58 dogs are omnivores 19:18:23 they're not good omnivores 19:19:31 well, there aren't scales for carnivore or herbivore anymore because that was an annoying but pointless distinction 19:19:44 it's either full carnivore, full herbivore, or neither 19:20:28 well the other dog race (kobolds) are full carnivore 19:21:26 I thought kobold were lizards 19:21:28 I thought kobolds were more reptilian than canine 19:21:31 e;fb 19:21:40 gnolls are the other dog race 19:21:41 crawl kobolds are the dog type 19:21:46 it depends on the source 19:21:54 from what i've seen d&d v1 had them as dogs 19:21:59 up to player interpretation!!! 19:22:04 and then somewhere down the line made them reptiles 19:22:04 The fundametal issue I think is that if you can get enough skill to survive the early game, you have enough skill to survive most of the game. You'd have to restrict skilling very sharply to make a significant impact. 19:22:07 look at the 19:22:11 generic kobold monster description lol 19:22:32 Lasty, well keep in mind that most players will crash and burn trying to juggle low skill levels lategame 19:23:10 Brannock: Why? They can easily just train their weapon, fighting, dodging, and armour to 12 19:23:16 and do it much faster than normal 19:23:19 yes, that's what I mean 19:23:27 I'm just going to leave this here https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19639 19:23:32 doing Depths with 12-15 skill is a recipe for death for most players 19:23:37 obviously not for you, me, or minmay here 19:24:14 Brannock: If the goal is "species that's really easy but seems hard if you're inexperienced", then the real problem is that the species doesn't communicate itself well 19:24:34 also, Demigod is already a thing :D 19:24:49 lol 19:24:57 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:13 Lasty: current other downsides are -2 XP and stat growth of S/I/D every 5 levels (so a spread out undead growth) 19:25:13 I think it's less an issue of communication and more an issue of the majority of players have no idea how (and have had very little reason to learn) to do the endgame content while very tight on XP 19:25:28 the Lorekeeper banner is one of the less-attempted ones in tournaments 19:26:05 Brannock: I think that the tournament popularity has more to do with the interface issues than anything else 19:26:10 and, fwiw, even as I'm a decent player, scrambling to deal with Depths/Zot with "weak" skill levels requires a lot more thought and engagement than usual 19:26:11 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:17 banner attempts aren't really a compelling design argument imo 19:26:18 and consumable usage, usually 19:26:51 it's not a design argument. 19:27:08 Brannock: but this species as described doesn't go through Depths with 12-15 skill -- it goes through depths with at least 12 in all the skills it cares about, and easily 18+ in the ones it does 19:27:19 i really enjoyed going for it last tour :< 19:27:24 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:30 because the XP savings from all the time it spends gettings +4s can be channeled into other things 19:27:33 right 19:27:44 even if i took the cheaty way and did ds^gozag 19:28:22 Floodkiller, I think you've addressed having the stepdowns being larger before, maybe? Instead of 3/-1/-5/-9, something like 4/-2/-8 19:28:59 or, hell, even 4/-4? 19:29:32 I think PF disliked the idea of having a single step, which is why I initially went with multiple steps 19:29:55 Two (or one) step would get them up-to-speed on everything but require a lot more investment to specialize 19:29:56 too large of a step starts feeling like an actual discouraging breakpoint 19:30:08 I feel strongly that this species doesn't have a "weak endgame" unless it really doesn't get a lot of skills above around 10-12. 19:30:09 I still don't understand why "easy early, hard later" is the goal in the first place 19:30:34 how about average early, hard later 19:30:35 minmay, because that's not the goal, the goal is more "can do anything, but has trouble doing any one thing really well" 19:30:36 a fair question 19:34:18 IMO if that really is the goal, then they have to be genuinely bad at doing one thing well. Being "kinda bad" isn't really good enough, since people can still just direct XP at that thing while also enjoying the benefits of a wide range of low skills 19:34:49 yeah, I think Lasty is right about skill levels 19:35:14 if you want to stop them from doing melee really well or summoning really well, then you have to cap their skill levels at like 8 19:35:25 ^ 19:35:28 that would be crippling for the vast majority of players 19:35:30 because demon whips and shadow creatures exist 19:35:33 which I've pointed out before 19:35:50 a vast majority of players can't win a naga 19:35:59 so is that species design broken? 19:36:01 a vast majority of players don't win 19:36:04 A vast majority of players can't win 19:36:17 Avast! 19:36:25 forgive me for taking even the slightest consideration of Crawl accessibility 19:36:57 well no one is saying it's not right to consider that generally speaking, but this is a challenging species 19:37:07 sorry, I'm feeling sassy tonight 19:37:11 so people are saying you should try to have that challenge be real 19:37:12 you said they should have trouble doing any one thing really well 19:37:33 as for why "easy early, hard later" is a goal, that's a fair question, but I guess that's a thing people could find fun 19:37:34 i would count having a demon whip at min delay as doing melee really well, generally 19:37:37 here's some number breakdowns I did at an earlier point in the SA thread for Cyno in relation to XP costs: http://pastebin.com/JeFffHrZ 19:37:53 so you have to keep their skills very low if you want to prevent that 19:38:18 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:02 The fundamental problem, in a sense, is that you don't need much skill to be excellent at some powerful things. 12 Dodging is enough to get pretty decent EV. 12 Armour is enough to get pretty decent AC. 12 melee/ranged is enough to have a strong offense. 12 in a set of spellcasting schools is enough to cast L6 spells. 19:39:07 alternatively you could get rid of all the low-XP-investment, "endgame-quality" stuff in the game, like dwhips and stabbing and lowlevel summons, which might be a good idea anyway 19:39:29 I wonder if there's some other kind of limitation you could put on their abilities that's simply not based on XP 19:39:32 there is something to be said for that 19:39:46 I guess that's hard to do a in systematic way 19:40:03 hmm... re gammafunk's idea, would require a lot of special casing, but explicit caps on spell power and damage? 19:40:08 "min delay not lower than this function of normal min delay", "spell power not higher than this function of spellpower" 19:40:08 gammafunk: you could prevent them from wielding a weapon with base damage > 10 or a spell with XL > 4 19:40:19 breakpoints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:40:27 yeah roughly what I was getting it, but like Brannock says it could involve a lot of special limits 19:40:44 Lasty: have to deal with quick blades and electrocution/distortion brands too 19:40:55 and pain brand 19:41:12 minmay: true, and animate dead and fedhas and kiku 19:41:13 that's why I thought working with min delay might help 19:41:17 well, qblade even with good brands struggle against a lot of lategame enemies (oof / hell sentinel being the easy examples coming to mind) 19:41:32 um 19:41:55 qblade characters definitely do not normally struggle against oofs 19:42:01 A +9 QB w/ !might does okay against those 19:42:06 the might being the key part 19:42:28 the reason qblade chars are bad is that they have to find a qblade 19:42:32 yes 19:42:35 once they have the qblade their melee damage is extremely good 19:42:50 an alternative I thought of, instead of trying to come up with a bunch of special cases, might be to match their MR growth to their other slow growth attributes and only give them +1 MR/level (which would also make them more unique by being the only species worse than a +3 MR/level baseline) 19:43:22 but if youre using low skill levels to try and make the species have trouble "mastering" anything, it won't really accomplish that 19:43:26 Floodkiller: I've thought about a low/0 MR species. I'm not sure how interesting it would be tho. 19:43:43 you would end up getting confused by orc wizards all game 19:43:45 because yes "mastering" melee can mean training weapon skill to 20 to use a great mace, but it can also mean being lucky enough to find a dwhip 19:44:27 but the dangerous MR-checking stuff is sufficiently infrequent that I've rarely had trouble dealing with it on low-MR characters. I think people wildly overestimate MR. 19:44:41 I think that's a relic of the days when paralysis was more frequent 19:44:44 and banishment was much scarier 19:44:48 perhaps 19:45:02 I think it has more to do with needing to feel absolutely safe 19:45:12 I got a gargoyle killed in a tournament once because I never found MR+ gear and got paralyzed by an ancient lich 19:45:17 good death 19:45:37 I actually have gotten into the habit of learning Silence so I can reliably deal with scary casters 19:45:42 i just ignore MR because it doesnt really matter unless you do orc too early or something 19:46:17 i dont think a specially low MR species would be significantly different from a character that just doesn't find good equipment with MR on it 19:46:18 Agreed. There are a few scary critters with spells that check MR, but you can handle them just fine as long as you treat them accordingly. 19:46:38 plus we tried having a specially low MR species and we removed it :P 19:46:44 which one was that? 19:46:44 we did? 19:46:45 Djinn? 19:46:58 mountain dwarf 19:47:09 that was long before Lasty's time 19:47:14 and I don't recall MD having particularly low MR 19:47:18 MD had low MR? Weird. 19:47:21 I ddn't pay mucha ttention to the numbers back when I was playing them, though 19:47:34 -!- surr has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:47:34 for a long time MD and HO had lower racial MR than everyone else 19:47:38 MD isn't before my time, but only just barely 19:47:55 nobody remembers this because it wasn't interesting 19:48:01 you were around in '11? 19:48:05 yeah 19:48:07 oh I guess you were a player then 19:48:19 I started playing around '10, but I didn't get into the online scene for another couple years 19:48:37 which is to say, 4 more near 19:48:44 s/near/yeas 19:48:46 ugh 19:48:49 I'm gonna stop trying 19:49:13 "To be honest, I will NEVER play Barachian spieces. The reason being me imagining a f’ing frog hurting my aestethics every time I try and delve deeper into the game, which brought me to roguelikes in the first place. I wonder how many of you played roguelike for the first time in your teens, when your conciousness is uncorrupted by daily chore of troubleshooting your life." 19:49:27 <|amethyst> wasn't for that long a time, just 0.6 and 0.7 19:49:34 Brannock: lol 19:49:35 if you want cyno to have trouble being really good at any one thing, you could lock their str/int/dex at 1 19:49:52 minmay: wouldn't that make them bad at everything? 19:50:22 minmay: I tried an iteration with low stats already. Everyone hated it, and those who didn't hate it worshipped Chei 19:50:49 Lasty: if they have super high apts then they still get early game melee damage very fast but it will be significantly lower later on, when other species' skills have caught up to min delay 19:50:50 <|amethyst> Brannock: I guess someone didn't like Chrono Trigger either 19:51:00 Just set it to "Str: -" so people don't get the feelbads from seeing '1' 19:51:02 Lasty: same for getting spell success really fast but never having spell power 19:51:03 minmay: true 19:51:11 their EV would always be garbage, yes 19:51:13 |amethyst, haha 19:51:46 minmay: that might work 19:51:50 Floodkiller: yes, I hate the low stats idea too 19:52:20 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:29 <|amethyst> Floodkiller: minmay has a tendency to suggest things that he thinks are a bad idea so he can laugh at people when they agree with him 19:52:53 I suggested it because I thought it was a better idea than the low skill thing 19:53:32 since I believe it accomplishes the goal better 19:54:32 but also acknowledging that, like the other people who hated it, I don't actually want to play a species with 1/1/1 stats 19:55:32 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:17 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 19:56:39 Brannock: I never get tired of seeing people (even trolls) say that being a teenager is so relaxed and uncorrupted and unstressful 19:56:56 -!- Fixer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:14 it's because they've forgotten what it was like to have no life perspective, and are comparing the responsibilities of being a teenager to their current daily routine 19:57:40 -!- dextur has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:59:25 <|amethyst> or because they smoked so much pot as a teenager that it was relaxed and uncorrupted and unstressful 19:59:45 <|amethyst> probably more what Brannock said 19:59:47 man, sounds like I should have been smoking pot as a teenager 20:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:18 I was a teenager 20:02:26 lies 20:02:46 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:05:15 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:20 <|amethyst> ??mikee guide 20:05:20 mikee guide[1/4]: It's 1996 and you drop your magic cards deck while trying to ollie off the railing next to the football field, scuffing your vans and dropping your discman and scratching your copy of "Portrait of an American Family." 20:07:21 oh my god, your 1996s were lousy :) 20:08:32 sounds better than my 1996 tbh 20:10:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:29 Brannock: is this quote from SA or something, searching tavern for "teenager" just brings up a certain dream of mine 20:11:55 it's from the recent dev blog post 20:11:59 february 25 trunk update 20:12:25 thx 20:12:25 My 1996 was playing a lot of Pokemon Red iirc 20:12:46 "Did the devs just give that +1 LOS that was originally proposed for HE to barachians for no reason?" 20:12:49 i like this one better actually 20:13:00 "I mean, what does +1 LOS have to do with frog people?" 20:13:23 appropriately, the +LOS idea came after I told PF to come up with something that *wasn't* frog-related 20:13:35 because all the ideas thus far were too froggy and felt unimaginative 20:13:56 so now we have... angel frogs that scare away shadows! 20:14:47 "Good work. Now please bring back the Enchanted Forest branch. It deserves to be in the game. It was an awesome addition that got trashed because of politics." 20:16:00 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:16:14 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:57 -!- wsx has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:18:38 -!- murtidash has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:22:58 btw wow the new tome4 version looks terrible 20:38:25 alligator (12t) | Spd: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | HP: 60-84 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 30, 15 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 896 | Sp: sprint [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 20:38:25 %??alligator 20:39:16 ??sprint 20:39:16 dungeon sprint[1/2]: Sprint is a one-level, accelerated version of crawl. Originally coded by Chapayev. Now there are nine playable maps! 20:39:19 ??sprint[2 20:39:19 dungeon sprint[2/2]: No teleportation allowed from any source. 20:39:30 toying around with the idea of buffing monster Sprint 20:39:39 would primarily affect alligators (along with Gastronok and Maurice) 20:39:59 I've been wanting to make alligators more relevant in Swamp, you might remember me attempting to give them AF_THRASH a few months ago 20:42:39 Brannock: that's not how it happened 20:42:48 eh? 20:43:00 how what happened? 20:43:08 " appropriately, the +LOS idea came after I told PF to come up with something that *wasn't* frog-related" 20:43:34 had nothing to do with that, people were spitballing and I mentioned the idea, it being an older idea that had been discussed in the past 20:43:46 ah 20:43:48 he just liked it 20:44:00 well I remember telling him earlier to try something that isn't frog-related 20:44:42 I think the reason that idea was appealing is because it played off of barachian's weakness (slow) and their movement tech ability 20:45:02 wasn't any lore inspiration for it, although he did make some for it naturally 20:45:14 // ('t') Testudines. 20:45:15 { MST_ALLIGATOR, 20:46:11 +los wasn't possible during the time of circlelos because circlelos was already at radius 8 20:46:21 and going bigger wasn't possible for technical reasons 20:46:29 but the idea had been brought up a number of times 20:46:30 terminal size? 20:46:35 yeah 20:46:37 probably others 20:47:06 stick around long enough and every new idea will be an idea that someone mentioned back at some point in version 0.Y 20:47:23 minmay has lots of stories that he trots out about 0.6 and such 20:47:53 -!- Arivia has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:49:20 re terminal size: the default message area size needs to change back, at least for barachians, because of 8los' reintroduction 20:50:35 also, she, etc. 20:51:47 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 20:52:03 <|amethyst> minmay: msg_min_height defaults to 7 20:52:05 -!- debo has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:52:21 <|amethyst> which leaves 17 = 8*2 + 1 20:52:49 |amethyst: which leaves you unable to see the squares right outside the top and bottom edges of your froglos 20:53:07 <|amethyst> ok? 20:53:23 <|amethyst> wasn't that a problem in circlelos too? 20:53:44 ...You know, I could have sworn it was different in circlelos and msg_min_height defaulted to 5 but I just checked and it turns out I'm wrong and dumb 20:54:06 <|amethyst> though if we did reduce it to 5 20:54:10 <|amethyst> we could just remove the option 20:54:22 <|amethyst> since the minimum for the option is 5 20:54:49 so, nevermind 20:56:50 alligator (12t) | Spd: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | HP: 60-84 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 30, 15 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 896 | Sp: sprint [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 20:56:50 %??alligator 20:57:03 how does move_cost -= 2 interact with alligators' 60% swim speed? 20:57:15 "Spd" is listed by Chei/Gretell as higher=faster, not lower=faster 20:57:16 jackal (07h) | Spd: 14 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 3 | XP: 2 | Sz: small | Int: animal. 20:57:16 %??jackal 20:57:20 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:57:42 <|amethyst> hm, does anyone play with mlist_allow_alternate_layout = true ? 20:57:50 there are alternate layouts? 20:58:08 <|amethyst> Brannock: it puts the monster list to the left of the main map area if your terminal has space 20:58:12 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:13 <|amethyst> (console only) 20:59:29 <|amethyst> Brannock: ENCH_SWIFT actually works by subtracting 2 from the action energy 20:59:51 <|amethyst> Brannock: so it makes them 60% move 40% swim 21:00:01 okay, wasn't sure if it was a flat interaction or multiplicative 21:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:51 <|amethyst> it's the weird hypermultiplicative thing where it has a bigger percentage effect on already fast monsters 21:01:09 <|amethyst> like how reducing weapon delay from 0.8 to 0.7 is better than 1.0 to 0.9 21:02:17 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:02:30 so, reading that Chei output, alligators are normal movespeed on land, slightly faster when attacking (both on land and in water), and extra fast in water. 21:05:29 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:39 <|amethyst> yeah, so sorry, 80% move 40% swim with swift 21:05:47 <|amethyst> but 21:06:02 <|amethyst> you do have to take both spd and action energy into account, see jackal 21:06:15 <|amethyst> the monster gets "spd" energy every 10 aut 21:06:34 Ahh, that was the missing piece 21:06:48 <|amethyst> and unless noted it costs 10 energy to do anything 21:07:03 <|amethyst> act: 80% means it takes only 8 energy to do non-move actions 21:08:12 <|amethyst> the categories are 21:08:16 <|amethyst> !source mon_energy_usage 21:08:16 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.h#L29 21:08:51 <|amethyst> and mon-data has several macros to do common patterns of energy costs 21:08:55 <|amethyst> !source MOVE_ENERGY 21:08:56 Can't find MOVE_ENERGY. 21:09:13 <|amethyst> !source mon-data.h:124 21:09:13 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h#L124 21:09:34 Thanks, this breakdown is helpful for understanding 21:09:54 <|amethyst> for some reason pickup is out of 100 instead of 10 21:09:59 So every 10 aut, monsters accumulate a given set of energy, and they burn through these energy according to the actions they take. So if they have enough energy points, they can double-act sometimes 21:10:06 sensible 21:10:20 s/set/amount/ 21:10:21 <|amethyst> Brannock: they actually get the energy every player turn of course 21:10:26 <|amethyst> scaled by elapsed time 21:11:54 <|amethyst> !source _monster_add_energy 21:11:54 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc#L1360 21:12:20 <|amethyst> called from _pre_monster_move 21:12:50 <|amethyst> also, err 21:12:52 <|amethyst> "Randomise to make counting off monster moves harder" 21:13:15 <|amethyst> but it's not randomized if you're taking speed-10 actions 21:13:34 <|amethyst> like walking for most characters 21:14:30 <|amethyst> I guess that comment is probably intended for combat, not movement 21:16:07 <|amethyst> ohhh 21:16:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:26 <|amethyst> that comment is left over from the first implementation of randomised energy (which lasted 2 days) 21:17:00 <|amethyst> oh, no, it's older than that 21:18:21 !learn add barachian http://i.imgur.com/23atM.jpg 21:18:22 barachian[5/5]: http://i.imgur.com/23atM.jpg 21:19:58 very good 21:21:08 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:29 definitely going to use that as my stream intro 21:24:32 when I play BaWn 21:27:28 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:14 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4nnwbdVcAAcjBB.jpg:large unarmed BaBe 21:37:35 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-854-g0cc194a: Speed up monster Sprinting 10(16 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0cc194a960de 21:41:46 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:52 I haven't spectated people much recently and I'm doing it for 15 minutes 21:52:00 wow.. 21:52:19 any miraculous visions? 21:52:19 and I'm already ready to manual skilling 21:52:42 because "what should I skill" become a never-ending choose your own adventure 21:53:11 but the player keeps going back to several pages to choose a different path 21:53:40 *already ready to remove manual skilling 21:53:53 -!- Dixiee has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:22 lol 21:54:31 -!- Boatshow has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:32 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:54:51 the skill system ISN'T newbie friendly 21:55:11 !won aer1al 21:55:12 aer1al has won 30 times in 186 games (16.13%): 1xBaBe 1xCeCK 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDEFE 1xDgAr 1xDrTm 1xDrWz 1xDsHu 1xDsWn 1xFeEn 1xFoFi 1xGhGl 1xGrNe 1xHaAM 1xHuSk 1xKoAr 1xMfAK 1xMiEE 1xMiGl 1xMuFi 1xNaWr 1xOgSu 1xOpIE 1xSpVM 1xTeCj 1xTrAE 1xTrMo 1xVSAs 1xVpAs 21:55:20 cred-checking.... 21:55:23 30 wins, and he can't figure out how to build a char! 21:55:33 the Optimization Trap 21:55:36 there's no excuse after that many! 21:59:28 do dreams count as miraculous visions 22:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:30 only if you like, listen to them and then win a battle that expands your empire 22:07:33 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:07:37 that guy is weird 22:08:09 he has experience megazigging too 22:08:17 this is a video gaming community Doesnty, weird is so relative 22:09:19 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-854-g0cc194a (34) 22:10:05 ??book of fire 22:10:05 book of fire[1/1]: Ignite Poison, Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Delayed Fireball, Ring of Flames 22:10:24 -!- Boatshow_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:38 !learn edit book_of_fire s/$/. In 0.20, Delayed Fireball is replaced with Ignition./ 22:10:39 book of fire[1/1]: Ignite Poison, Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Delayed Fireball, Ring of Flames. In 0.20, Delayed Fireball is replaced with Ignition. 22:10:42 ??delayed fireball 22:10:43 delayed fireball[1/2]: When cast, lets you release a fireball later on (as an 'a'bility) with no cost or delay. Great to have one prepared for emergencies. Only one fireball may be stored at a time. Is level 7, and to know the fireball spell at the same time only uses 7 spell levels total. 22:11:02 -!- hellmonk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:29 !learn edit delayed_fireball[1] s/$/ Removed in 0.20, replaced by the Ignition spell./ 22:11:29 delayed fireball[1/2]: When cast, lets you release a fireball later on (as an 'a'bility) with no cost or delay. Great to have one prepared for emergencies. Only one fireball may be stored at a time. Is level 7, and to know the fireball spell at the same time only uses 7 spell levels total. Removed in 0.20, replaced by the Ignition spell. 22:11:37 ??delayed_fireball[2 22:11:37 delayed fireball[2/2]: Can be released while silenced. 22:11:41 ??ignition 22:11:41 ignition[1/1]: Level 8 Fire spell that drops a fireball-like explosion on every hostile monster in LOS (except {firewood} and tentacle segments). The explosions can't hurt the player or allies. Replaces Delayed Fireball in 0.20. Damage per explosion is 3d(3.33+power/9). 22:12:01 I love how explicit that is, tentacle segments 22:13:38 segmentation violation? 22:13:38 one imagines there's some arcane stanza when uttering the spell itself amounting to "...but not the weird, long squishy arm things that some monsters have...." 22:15:54 People have tried leaving that stanza out, but somehow it makes the spell stop working 22:17:00 wizardcode, the in-game equivalent of crawlcode 22:17:09 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:33 most miscasts are refactor attempts 22:17:34 no mage really understands how the spells work, they just say them, making tweaks here and there and hoping it actually works 22:17:50 that's good, sounds like the basis of a hacking roguelike 22:18:25 dungeon crawl hack soup 22:19:43 can someone summarize the centaur kiting thread 22:19:54 I assume it's this: centaurs can kite. 22:19:56 dont want to read that shit 22:20:49 it's "we should implement realism to balance centaurs" 22:21:02 imagine if movespeed... depended on your path!!! 22:21:07 "centaurs don't work how i think real horses do so change them" 22:21:17 lol 22:21:29 now I"m just thinking about CDDA vehicle driving 22:21:33 ??dazzling spray[2 22:21:33 dazzling spray[2/2]: Player ghosts with Dazzling Spray are an absolute terror, because the dazzling spray confuses you in addition to doing damage, allowing the ghost to confuse-lock you at the same time as it kills you. 22:21:42 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:36 hellmonk: incoherent trolling basically 22:23:48 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 22:23:56 it was the same guy as the ogre thread right 22:24:00 !learn add dazzling spray[3] Against players, has an (85 - 3*XL)% chance to confuse you for 4+1d3 turns, no matter who the caster is. Won't confuse if you are undead, nonliving, or a plant. 22:24:10 dazzling[2/2]: spray[3] Against players, has an (85 - 3*XL)% chance to confuse you for 4+1d3 turns, no matter who the caster is. Won't confuse if you are undead, nonliving, or a plant. 22:24:10 god damn it 22:24:10 hellmonk: yeah 22:24:15 hellmonk: seems to have doubled their number of line breaks too 22:24:18 !learn remove dazzling[2] 22:24:18 I don't know about !learn remove. 22:24:32 really realistic for an ogre to come to the dungeon w/ their little baby mace and murder a fellow ogre for a gc imo 22:24:32 !learn delete dazzling[2 22:24:32 Deleted dazzling[2/2]: spray[3] Against players, has an (85 - 3*XL)% chance to confuse you for 4+1d3 turns, no matter who the caster is. Won't confuse if you are undead, nonliving, or a plant. 22:24:36 hellmonk: yes 22:24:53 !learn add dazzling_spray[3] Against players, has an (85 - 3*XL)% chance to confuse you for 4+1d3 turns, no matter who the caster is. Won't confuse if you are undead, nonliving, or a plant. 22:24:53 dazzling spray[3/3]: Against players, has an (85 - 3*XL)% chance to confuse you for 4+1d3 turns, no matter who the caster is. Won't confuse if you are undead, nonliving, or a plant. 22:25:00 wish dpeg was here to take that guy to flavor town 22:25:01 minmay, how seriously should I take that Ogre post you made recently? 22:25:08 which one 22:25:13 brannock: it's a post by someone else 22:25:19 i assume the one where you want them renamed to giant gnomes 22:25:21 oh I must have missed the original 22:25:35 if you mean the one with a picture of shrek, it's copypasta 22:25:39 yeah they're pretty old posts 22:25:56 from https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=742 22:26:05 boy I hope that SSL cert gets fixed 22:26:07 ok that explains a lot 22:26:07 the original was pretty famous in here for a while 22:27:53 you should take my "Me, a furry developer" post seriously though 22:29:28 well, it is a historical account of recent chages 22:29:30 *changes 22:29:55 oh boy, tavern is nearly unusable until that cert is fixed 22:30:03 I like clicking "yes, proceed to the incredibly unsafe site" every page 22:33:28 -!- JoeltCo has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:39:58 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:46:59 oh man I forgot about my moon troll tile burn 22:49:31 ?! 22:53:31 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:54 -!- Warrigal is now known as tswett 23:07:50 -!- dextur has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:25 -!- dilpil has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:42 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:21:07 how could you burn that masterpiece 23:21:35 Should be taught in art academies 23:25:03 draw a moon troll wearing a scarf and covered in pudding and i'll reconsider 23:26:17 -!- twelwe has joined ##crawl-dev 23:26:17 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:30:46 -!- Twinge has quit [] 23:31:22 is there any way to set up a warning before whirlwinding etc with a ranged weapon? 23:36:03 you could do it with elaborate lua that checks for non-firewood monsters in adjacent squares, but it's probably faster to persuade someone to fix the bug where you can whirlwind with non-weapons 23:36:27 can we take out riposte with non-weapons too 23:36:33 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:37:52 ??holy crap 23:37:52 holy crap[1/1]: the quarterstaff "Crapp" {holy, rF+ rC+} 23:38:04 if you riposte with this, it's a shitposte 23:38:51 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:43:21 damn, i`m in a situation where i *don`t* want to whirlwind in V:5 and keep walking past an unaware monster 23:43:58 this couold be really bad, its a storm dragon and i`m without relec and exhausted, so no lash 23:44:51 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:52:33 -!- tarabluh has quit [Quit: Page closed]