00:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:14 i do my best 00:02:36 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:02:36 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 00:06:06 I wish I was capable of the level of mental gymnastics necessary to paint my embarrassing crawl deaths as not being my fault 00:09:45 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:03 -!- meff` has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:02 -!- circ-user-01rws has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:08 -!- Awod has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:35 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:03 Um...I'd like to try debugging the text-based version of crawl. How would I go about doing this? I'm doing `make -j debug` atm 00:17:14 But using gdb as Crawl is running sounds problematic 00:17:51 AutofireII: it's not really, but you want to have gdb watch the crawl process 00:17:56 without starting crawl through gdb 00:18:09 you can start crawl through gdb but it makes debugging pretty awful, yeah 00:18:22 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:18:48 gdb program 1234 00:18:48 gdb -p 1234 00:19:00 1234 is the process id 00:19:07 gammafunk: Okay, thanks! 00:20:58 and program would be crawl in this example; most people probably start crawl and use the gdb -p form 00:21:27 Hmm...not working for me. I'm using Cygwin. I'm going to go try it in Linux 00:21:40 what happens in cygwin? 00:22:03 If I try running it by attaching it to the process, I get "(gdb) Can't attach to process." 00:22:32 so you found the PID of your running crawl binary, and you use gdb -p PID ? 00:22:35 But if I try running it as `gdb crawl.exe` (just to test it) I get "(gdb) "E:\src\crawl\crawl-ref\source/crawl.exe": not in executable format: File format not recognized" 00:22:36 *used 00:22:48 Yeah, I found it using `ps x` 00:23:10 hrm, that's rather odd, gdb can't even load your binary? 00:23:39 als that path is a kind of odd mix of windows and unix paths 00:23:44 *also 00:23:51 I know 00:23:55 I'm not sure why that is... 00:24:03 it should work fine under linux, but it works ok in MSYS2 as well 00:24:10 have you tried using msys2 instead of cygwin? 00:24:21 if you don't care either way, then linux will certainly work fine 00:26:35 -!- Atlatl_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:27:27 Sometime, I will try MSYS2 mostly because I never heard of it before, but I already have a Linux machine that can compile crawl so I'll use that. 00:27:44 i use msys 00:27:55 cygwin is awful in my experience 00:28:20 ontoclasm: How so? 00:31:52 In some ways cygwin is much less awful, but I'm not sure about how well supported crawl is with the platform currently 00:32:02 I think we may need to update some of our contribs, maybe sqlite3 00:32:16 but yeah MSYS2 basically "just works" 00:32:42 wrt compiling the current source; I think it may be a bit slower than cygwin though. I would need to test it in my VM 00:33:36 I guess it depends largely on what you use it for. I've used it for roughly 2 years now, but mostly as a git console. 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connection] 07:02:46 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 254 seconds] 07:02:56 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 07:08:09 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:36 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 07:08:57 -!- MgDark has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:16 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 07:18:31 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:24 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:22:23 New branch created: pull/440 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/440 07:22:23 03jiocy02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/440 * 0.20-a0-568-g991e466: reduce intensity of conjure flame verb 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/991e4661b1b3 07:23:24 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:57 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:06 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:18 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: witty quit message goes here] 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12:34:35 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:36:50 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.20-a0-568-gb845919: Clarify slime creature description (Floodkiller) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b845919ff873 12:39:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.20-a0-569-g99e027b: Simplify paralysis code 10(50 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/99e027bd98f9 12:41:04 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:18 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:35 -!- exant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:53 -!- sneakyness has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:03 -!- sneakynesss has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:53 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:09:24 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-569-g99e027b (34) 13:15:53 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:03 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-570-g5e19f30: Include where needed (#10926) 10(2 minutes ago, 17 files, 23+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5e19f30c998b 13:35:17 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:39 !messages 13:35:40 (1/1) MarvinPA said (18h 23m 35s ago): a different kind of god-specific special case sounds just as bad to me, and in general i don't see a good justification for straight-up duplicating the god's core mechanics on unrands. it just feels like an attempt to keep the divine weapons around because they used to be a thing 13:37:01 !tell MarvinPA Well, I think I did offer a justification in my last message :) the fact that is meshes well with other god mechanics (See Uskayaw) 13:37:02 SteelNeuron: OK, I'll let marvinpa know. 13:37:20 In any case... This conversation would benefit from other people in it, I guess, so let me ask an open question: 13:38:01 Since the last versions of IJC don't directly involve weapons, I removed all of the divine weapons except three, which I repurposed as normal unrands, which each give your player access to one of the martial moves, regardless of god choice 13:38:55 -!- dondy1 is now known as dondy 13:39:06 And offer some other benefit if you already worship IJC (such as +faith). This was in an attempt to offer a low-frequency way for other worshippers to interact with the mobile combat mechanics. It's something that has been requested often by testers. I can see the argument of it being unnecessary though, but I'd say it's fun enough to consider. Thoughts? 13:40:19 felid attacks DEAD MONSTER 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10930 by damerell 13:41:51 it doesn't seem like a good enough reason to add multiple unrands all duplicating the god's abilities and with weird god-specific behaviour on top of that 13:42:25 phew, 0.19 13:42:33 <|amethyst> cherry-picking 13:43:21 i'm sure testers would enjoy a ring of summon oklobs too, but that doesn't make it a good idea 13:45:28 how do I push a commit to a PR? github says to just push to the patch-2 branch on jiocy/crawl but when I try that I get some errors about refs/refspecs. 13:45:28 -!- FunkyGnoll has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:46:12 <|amethyst> is jiocy you? 13:46:18 no 13:46:22 #440 13:46:23 <|amethyst> I don't think you can 13:46:34 "Add more commits by pushing to the patch-2 branch on jiocy/crawl." 13:46:39 you can if the requester has checked a box 13:46:42 <|amethyst> aha 13:47:13 <|amethyst> what errors? 13:47:15 $ git push git://github.com/jiocy/crawl.git patch-2 13:47:15 error: src refspec patch-2 does not match any. 13:47:15 MarvinPA: I get the argument that testers do not always know what they want, but there is such a thing as taking it to an extreme I think 13:47:52 Forget for a second the special case with the god (which can be done away with), I think each of them are worthwhile on their own, as they open up different ways to use other god mechanics and are fun separately 13:47:55 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: to be fair we do have several unrands and even non-unrands mimicking Trog's signature ability 13:47:59 there's stuff like the ring of shadows which is a more reasonable way of doing that kind of thing (and no need for a dith-specific special case there), and mechanics like berserking which are more generally available 13:48:22 right, but this proposal is taking the entire core of the god and sticking it on multiple unrands 13:49:05 Well, that's why the interaction with the god, I think of them as an invitation to it (and a possible incentive for a mid-game god switch, which isn't too common other than switching into the typical late game gods) 13:49:16 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-1-gdf1a1cb: Include where needed (#10926) 10(17 minutes ago, 17 files, 23+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df1a1cb1088c 13:49:16 03advil02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-2-g9197bd8: Fix for pain bond and aux attacks (10472) 10(11 days ago, 3 files, 23+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9197bd86f9c2 13:49:16 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-3-gce52e7a: Fix a compiler warning. 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ce52e7acef51 13:51:46 well that's just not a meaningful thing for an unrand to try and be 13:53:16 How are they any worse than Wrath of Trog or, like you brought up, Ring of Shadows though? They also duplicate god mechanics 13:53:27 ring of mushrooms 13:53:32 if the mechanic stands on its own as an interesting thing without being too obviously just a pure duplicate of the god's functionality (which i don't think it does), then that'd be one thing 13:53:33 is such a punny name 13:54:27 but then there's no reason to make that more complicated by special-casing it depending on your religion 13:54:58 MarvinPA: Let me elaborate on the weapon choices then... The one for lunge is a quick blade, because stabbers can really benefit from lunge regardless of the rest of the god mechanics, 13:55:25 Wall jump is on a polearm for a very specific reason: IJC followers never use wall jump + reach because the god offers other tools, but being a non-worshipper, a polearm with wall jump is a kit on itself 13:56:25 and the simplest to use of the three (whirlwind) is on the stronger base with a laj. I tried to match them with weapons that would work even in absence of the rest of the mechanics, and which would offer any character a way to mix up their melee. It is not arbitrary 13:57:22 they do stand on their own. Yet I agree they're a duplicate of the god mechanic. But so are berserk and umbra. 13:57:23 btw that reminds me, in order to successfully build the OS X release of 0.19.4, I needed to cherry-pick a few fixes to the OS X build settings that had happened in 0.20, should those go into the official stone_soup-0.19? 13:57:48 <|amethyst> SteelNeuron: but I think you realise that they detract from the uniqueness of the god, or else they wouldn't need a special effect if you do worship the god 13:57:54 none of those seem substantially distinct from just worshipping the god 13:58:00 <|amethyst> advil: which ones? 13:58:32 they were (in order) 409887acc9b9 5d318e29fcef 78c68709658e aebe03603bdc a051ee5c924f 13:58:41 not all of them may have been strictly necessary 13:59:07 it wouldn't build for the right range of OS X versions without at least some of them, and the fifth fixed a bug amalloy found with the console build 13:59:09 |amethyst: That's a good point, and honestly they could do without the special effect. But even without it, they do answer a request that I've gotten constantly on webtiles: "It would be cool to use whirlwind with Usk", "I would love lunge as a dith follower" etc etc. 13:59:56 <|amethyst> s/cool/powerful/ IMO 14:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:27 Yeah... But so is looting a Frostbite ;) 14:00:50 03jiocy02 {GitHub} 07* 0.20-a0-568-g991e466: reduce intensity of conjure flame verb 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/991e4661b1b3 14:00:50 03Brannock02 {GitHub} 07* 0.20-a0-572-g666c3b3: Merge pull request #440 from jiocy/patch-2 10(8 seconds ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/666c3b39d8cf 14:01:12 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:01:19 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 14:02:29 03Brannock02 07* 0.20-a0-573-gcffc55d: Further hush conjured fires 10(31 seconds ago, 4 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cffc55dacd5e 14:02:45 To be fair, if I have to take them out I will. I just want them to be judged without preconceptions, because I'm well aware that asking for a few weapons to be bundled with a god is a hard sell. I do think they would offer anything to the game though. 14:02:56 s/anything/something 14:03:08 03aegolden02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-4-g69e9cf9: Add a symlink to init.txt for Mac OS X users 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 28+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/69e9cf947ca9 14:03:08 03aegolden02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-5-ga692dbb: Simplify Mac OS X build instructions in INSTALL.txt 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 4+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a692dbb55f44 14:03:08 03aegolden02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-6-g4eaca71: Remove logic related to trying to find oldest available Mac OS X SDK 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 67-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4eaca7127b53 14:03:08 03aegolden02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-7-ge29c3b8: Change Mac OS X build arguments 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e29c3b8b5bb8 14:03:08 03amalloy02 {|amethyst} 07[stone_soup-0.19] * 0.19.4-8-ga85b6b9: Fix the way the mac console app calls 'open' 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a85b6b92f2c1 14:03:53 thanks |amethyst 14:03:58 -!- rumflump has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:18 -!- HarryHood has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:04 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:07:09 In any case, I think it's fair for me to take them out of this PR altogether and, if I want to make a push for them to be added, do so in the future 14:07:11 -!- mobydollar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:07:47 For now, I think the god is nearing completion and I haven't seen anything too negative from you guys regarding the last versions (I haven't gotten around to do that change you suggested, MarvinPA, about making the ult time-based, but I will) 14:07:50 -!- snux has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:55 crawl-ref\source\contrib\sqlite has a change that keeps coming back no matter what I do. Subproject commit changed hashes, and every time I try to discard that change it keeps popping back up. What gives? 14:08:09 they definitely need to justify themselves as a separate thing, yeah 14:09:17 Yep, agreed 14:09:18 Stable (0.19) branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19.4-3-gce52e7a 14:09:27 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:38 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 14:10:20 So, how about after I add MarvinPA's change I tidy the branch up a bit and rebase into some sort of "definitive" PR? 14:12:16 <|amethyst> Brannock: cd to the top level and git submodule update 14:12:40 That did it, tyvm 14:12:46 I don't understand what happened there, though 14:12:58 <|amethyst> I updated the sqlite submodule 14:13:00 oic 14:17:08 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:28 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-573-gcffc55d (34) 14:23:33 -!- Yxhuvud has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:06 -!- AcridBrimistic has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:34 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:32:29 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:50 -!- exant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:41 <|amethyst> hm... in wizmode, how do I trigger the evolution mutation? 14:39:36 not sure if there's a good method other than killing a bunch of cerebovs 14:40:42 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:44:26 -!- HarryHood has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:18 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:29 -!- Daddy has quit [Client Quit] 14:50:00 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50:04 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-574-g15e6a6b: Fix log message for reduction of evolution level (#10927) 10(43 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/15e6a6b68852 14:53:27 <|amethyst> !vault marbit_kobold_abyss_entry 14:53:27 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/abyss.des#L68 14:53:51 <|amethyst> It seems kind of bad to have a "guaranteed" portal that might be hidden out-of-sight behind a bunch of lava 14:53:59 <|amethyst> !bug 10924 14:53:59 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10924 14:57:14 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:02 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: was it intentional that player ghosts still can have animate dead? 15:02:08 <|amethyst> !bug 10920 15:02:09 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10920 15:04:30 -!- mitch45678 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:04:42 <|amethyst> in dat/database/shout.txt, do monster-specific messages override glyph-based messages, or alternate with them? 15:05:41 hm, probably not 15:05:43 re animate dead 15:06:35 i think monster overrides glyph 15:06:55 i'm sure some file or other has a list of the order all that stuff is checked, can't spot it at a glance though 15:07:53 !source docs/develop/monster_speech.txt 15:07:54 Can't find docs/develop/monster_speech.txt. 15:08:06 <|amethyst> it seems it does override 15:08:27 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-575-gb2da203: Don't let brains gaze (#10916) 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b2da203cca34 15:09:19 Stable (0.19) branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19.4-8-ga85b6b9 15:09:21 i forget how to make !source work with docs, but it's line 261 of monster_speech.txt, anyway 15:10:14 monster->genus->glyph->shape, approximately 15:10:26 <|amethyst> thanks 15:13:51 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-576-g2220185: Allow macros to work in tiles map mode (suppilulemur, #10917) 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/222018589ca8 15:14:45 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:35 03|amethyst02 07* 0.20-a0-577-g60d8699: Fix fsim defense mode with passive damage (advil, #10914) 10(12 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/60d86990370f 15:18:30 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-575-gb2da203 (34) 15:22:48 03Colin Morris02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/423 * 0.20-a0-576-g8bd1bf4: Merge branch 'master' into curse-message 10(21 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8bd1bf44e0ec 15:29:29 -!- chivava has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:29:52 if that PR passes the new build then I think it's safe to push 15:34:07 -!- THERetroGamerNY has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 15:34:55 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:12 Pleasingfungus, months later do you have a postmortem opinion on Desolation of Salt? 15:36:21 It seems to be a success 15:36:40 reasonably successful. still need to fix performance 15:36:43 but that's a project 15:37:07 I feel like it's slightly too rare but maybe that's just me playing less frequently these days 15:37:25 -!- Barfbag has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:32 the trouble is that it's basically just one map 15:37:43 more subvaults needed? 15:37:58 i think you'd want an entirely different layout vault 15:37:59 portal vaults are too common imo 15:38:20 there are quite a lot of subvaults, but i don't think they ultimately change the texture of the level that much 15:38:58 minmay, why do you think they're too common? 15:39:57 -!- daddy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:40:28 Would *placement* of subvaults change the level's feel? e.g. clustered instead of corners, or long corridor of subvaults, or single large desecrated temple (in lieu of the mini-vaults)? 15:41:06 For what it's worth 15:41:09 I love desolation 15:41:17 It is worth everything. 15:41:27 It is very unique, I love the mechanic of sudden change of LOS 15:41:38 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:41:47 New branch created: race_reordering (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/race_reordering 15:41:47 03PleasingFungus02 07[race_reordering] * 0.20-a0-570-gb26ab38: Re-organize species selection screen 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 15+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b26ab38835c6 15:41:49 I only wish it wasn't optimal to creep along the edges 15:41:53 Brannock: yes 15:41:56 Brannock: imagine if a non-portal vault had CHANCE: 5000 or so and a wide range 15:42:00 it would be insanely cool if it could be made to wrap around, but I can imagine about 10 reasons why that would be hell :) 15:42:03 Brannock: people would immediately complain that it places too often 15:42:19 non-portal vaults can be revisited and aren't time-limited 15:42:24 you're bringing up an orange 15:42:34 Brannock: and portal destination vaults effectively have that. It's substantially worsened by the portals being strongly timed because it means a significant subset of the levels in a game can't be autoexplored 15:42:38 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:42 PF I'd swap gargoyle and HO, personally, but quibbles etc. This is a good start 15:43:53 everything within a category is unordered 15:44:07 ic 15:44:09 except that humans are first in their category because i'm a human supremacy racist 15:45:16 how is spriggan more "simple and easy" than centaur 15:45:28 bias against ranged weapons 15:45:31 ^ 15:46:03 and against melee weapons and conjurations apparently... 15:46:13 i hate all of those things 15:47:30 also, since people are around, i should mention that i'll be gone for the next week or so 15:47:32 like I get the desire to pretend hp doesn't matter, since otherwise you'd have to put DE at the bottom, but centaur is literally a tutorial race 15:47:42 <|amethyst> are ghouls really that hard and complex? 15:47:46 i've also argued for centaur to not be a tutorial race 15:48:18 a bikeshed begins to construct... 15:48:19 i return on, uh, valentine's day. so save all your romance for me 15:48:22 <3 15:48:24 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:48:31 on or slightly after, i'd have to double check 15:48:47 |amethyst: i think the idea is for this to reflect new player impressions rather than reality, since DE is high and DD is low 15:49:06 <|amethyst> and why is merfolk so low down the list? 15:49:08 i don't feel like dd is appropriate for new players 15:49:09 and it makes sense to steer people away from undead 15:49:14 the idea is to present new players with races that will basically "play themselves" as long as you follow the obvious skill aptitudes 15:49:16 and DD and Fe, yes 15:49:23 DE: learn magic, blast things, straightforward 15:49:30 Sp: stab things and run away, straightforward 15:49:42 de could easily shift down a tier, as could te, vs, ce 15:49:48 gh could go up a tier 15:49:56 there's a lot of borderline cases in this fuzzy, arbitrary categorization 15:50:09 <|amethyst> Brannock: what about humans then? 15:50:10 Brannock: the problem with this is that new players don't know that En is the only background that should train stealth 15:50:13 |amethyst: as i said earlier, the categories aren't internally sorted 15:50:36 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: so how is a player supposed to know where one category ends and another begins? 15:50:41 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:50:49 as i said in the commit comment, "it could be worthwhile to add section headers, as with the background selection screen." 15:50:52 <|amethyst> ah 15:50:52 Easy | Moderate | Difficult | Mummy 15:51:06 European Extreme 15:51:24 naga is probably worse than mummy these days 15:51:42 actually without /hww mummy is literally unwinnable, remember? 15:51:48 and I would avoid pure difficulty descriptions - something like 'simple | moderate | advanced | very advanced', maybe 15:51:54 yes, that's better 15:52:08 else it invites endless tavern threads discussing tiers 15:52:08 it will anyway 15:52:08 let's be honest 15:52:10 ! 15:52:12 'Humanoid | Hybrid | Exotic | Undead" 15:52:13 look at what's happened here already...... 15:52:17 <|amethyst> I thought that was the point, to assign things to tiers 15:52:37 I'm exiting this bikeshed and going back to figuring out scarf implementation 15:52:40 !!! 15:52:41 intuitive, and you can steer new players away from everything except DD 15:52:51 DD going in humanoid is a shame but you can fix that by removing DD i guess 15:52:54 lol 15:53:27 also this is really gonna screw with people who use the letters to choose species 15:53:33 yeah i was worried about that 15:53:44 but |amethyst said there weren't any complaints when he rearranged em a while ago 15:53:51 I don't have thel etters memorized anyway 15:53:52 also weren't any when i added barachians 15:53:58 I wasn't complaining 15:54:13 you were predicting complaints from others, surely? 15:54:16 yes 15:54:26 yeah, i got that 15:54:31 FR: someone come up with more armour egos 15:54:32 I think species headers are overdue as long as background headers exist, may as well address that now 15:55:02 |amethyst: i think the vague point is to include more standard advice in the game itself - the standard advice of 'if you're new to the game, try running minotaur or gargoyle or w/e' that you see offered over and over again in every crawl community 15:55:14 and to try to steer people a little more away from HuFi 15:56:03 yes, that would go a surprisingly long way towards making crawl friendlier to new players I think 15:56:11 a lot of offline players don't access online communities/advice 15:56:22 what does the survey say? 15:56:26 oh, let me check 15:56:27 I haven't looked in a while 15:56:43 Brannock: what are you looking for in armour egos 15:57:06 cool stuff. my scarf idea is a 0 AC can't-be-enchanted item that always has an ego, takes the cloak slot 15:57:29 spirit shield and reflection were cool new egos, imo 15:57:39 well reflection isn't that new 15:58:02 surely scarfs should be able to give cold resistance 15:58:10 79.3% of players use trial and error to learn how to play Crawl 15:58:11 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:23 Doesnty, the current spread right now is: fire, cold, positive energy, spirit shield, reflection 15:58:35 which makes scarves into kinda a third ring, now that I think about it :\ 15:59:03 so you either wear a +2 cloak or a scarf of spirit shield in other words 15:59:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:23 remove rmsl spell, make it a body armour ego 15:59:24 armour ego that casts spectral weapon sometimes when you're hit 15:59:44 spiny as an ego might work 15:59:45 brogueness intensifies.... 15:59:52 i would wear fire/cold w/the opposite enhancer ring 16:00:00 Brannock: can we make egos that aren't completely obnoxious when monsters wear them 16:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:04 scarf of fire resistance seems really weird to me 16:00:21 monsters can't wear aux slots 16:00:26 yet? 16:00:35 oh, you're only looking for scarf egos? 16:00:35 ever, i assume 16:00:37 yeah 16:00:38 <|amethyst> except for the ones that do 16:00:43 these are special cased 16:00:44 you said "armour egos" so I assumed that you were looking for egos for y'know, armour 16:00:45 the ones that do wear them in the shield slot 16:00:50 so they generally don't benefit from them at all 16:01:09 armour ego that adds 1 ac or ev per adjacent enemy 16:01:14 I can't think of any egos that would be interesting on a scarf, sorry :/ 16:01:21 i could see scarf of stealth 16:01:21 minmay, you were cited as "least helpful" as a learning resource by at least one user 16:01:24 congratulations 16:01:34 quite a lot of people use the wiki 16:01:49 56% of Crawl players are offline 16:02:06 did they call me minmay or duvessa 16:02:09 both! 16:02:27 couldn't they have been referring to the unique 16:02:39 maybe they saw duvessa and murdered their brother irl thinking it would make them more powerful in the game 16:03:05 a few players want ASCII for online play. do they not know about console? 16:03:05 Brannock: 56% of Crawl players that went online to take a survey at that. there's probably some bias in that data 16:03:31 well, the client tells people to go online to check out the survey 16:03:45 2805 responses thus far in a bit over two months 16:03:55 we'll probably hit... 4000? by the next version 16:04:44 Brannock: didn't someone also call minmay 'most helpful'? 16:04:48 i thought someone was talking about that the other day 16:04:55 yes, opinions are polarized 16:05:08 we should poll on best/worst devs 16:05:11 kick the worst one off the team 16:05:23 about 45% of crawl players are younger than 25, 47% are older than 25 but younger than 40 16:05:31 no clear age bias here, really 16:06:29 34 Japanese replies, 124 Korean 16:07:09 the korean players despise the wiki 16:07:19 like really strongly opinionated about that, haha 16:08:20 oh, there are some wiki likers further down these replies 16:08:55 "Stop deleting funny content." 16:09:12 the last time i tried to contribute to the wiki i literally could not find where to make an account 16:09:20 you have to email the owner or something like that? 16:09:21 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:22 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-577-g60d8699 (34) 16:09:22 <|amethyst> Doesnty: you have to email the owner 16:09:30 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 16:09:38 nice 16:09:47 this is a really thoughtful criticism 16:09:51 Occasionally trying out the webtiles, I'm seeing more and more feature branching between the two. Webtiles offers more "channels" of information to the player. Colors of auras can be stacked onto textures floor tiles, and monster health can be displayed in a thin bar, or their weapons immediately visible. I don't blame developers from taking advantage of this, and being excited in adding these features. However, this means that 16:09:51 gameplay between the two is diverging. More thought needs to be given to how to keep this at-a-glance information parity in terminal crawl as well. For example, showing wielded weapons in the monster list. 16:10:25 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:28 I'm not sure how you'd show wielded weapons in the monster list without making it completely unwieldly, especially with small terminals 16:10:50 <|amethyst> perhaps the solution is to stop displaying things in tiles that can't be shown in console 16:11:24 I'd suggest that if something should be displayed, and can't be displayed in console, it should be changed so that it no longer needs to be displayed 16:11:39 making gnolls just as bad in tiles as in console doesn't really solve anything 16:12:04 nuclear option: end console support 16:12:05 :o 16:12:06 split them into gnolls and gnoll halberdiers 16:12:17 Brannock: +1 16:12:30 i agree 16:12:49 console players are a tiny minority. they can adapt to tiles. sad, but times move on! 16:12:54 :) 16:13:38 hmm 16:13:48 I wonder if we can aid that transition in some way 16:14:02 Like an option to show monster glyphs in webtiles instead of mosnter tiles 16:14:07 we have that option 16:14:10 we do? neat 16:14:11 that has existed for many years 16:14:15 that option exists, but it kind of sucks 16:14:20 it's a 'hybrid' mode, iirc 16:14:22 also 16:14:28 <|amethyst> that doesn't solve the problem though 16:14:28 it wouldn't help the 'monster weapon' problem at all 16:14:31 <|amethyst> yeah 16:14:34 unless we display weapons on the glyphs??? 16:14:43 <|amethyst> Also, does this mean no more TV? 16:14:50 (g 16:15:24 I can't tell if this discussion is serious or not 16:15:43 to clarify before this goes further: my position is that removing monster weapons for the sake of console is about as reasonable an idea as removing console. 16:16:04 the status quo is flawed, of course 16:16:09 Well, as Crawl is becoming more osphisicated then access to information is going to be easier and easier in tiles than console simply because there's so much more visual bandwidth to work with 16:16:23 I don't think the two modes need perfect parity, but we could make information access easier in console 16:16:28 monster statuses effects (tile icons) are another example of this 16:16:40 as a console only player I don't really expect there to be parity between the two 16:16:47 especially if we fix the implementation so that it's non-terrifying 16:16:58 I sometimes play with a webtiles window watching my game open in the background for the minimap 16:17:05 Brannock: have you ever seen how tile icons are implemented? (e.g. berserking monsters) 16:17:09 no 16:17:13 which file? 16:17:28 it's split over like three files, there's a lot of data wandering around 16:17:38 but the short version is: it's packed into the high bits of the tile enum 16:17:56 that.. doesn't sound good 16:17:56 Brannock: if crawl is becoming more complicated with time, then it bodes very poorly for a lot of things, not just console 16:18:00 I said sophisticated, not complicated 16:18:17 yes, there's a distinction between 'adding more complexity' and 'better communicating the complexity that already exists' 16:18:21 going from no buff icons to having buff icons on monsters is added sophistication 16:18:30 (even if the implementation is that way) 16:18:36 as was roctavian's idea of displaying the different brands on weapons visually 16:18:58 Brannock: oh, I thought you were referring to how the increase in monster status effects has let to it being impossible to distinguish between them in console 16:19:26 As mentioned before, terminal play needs love! I think the monster list can be improved quite a bit. It's really great when there are a few monsters on screen, because the health color is another "band" of information to the player that is not available in the main map without xv. However, once there are multiples of monsters on screen, this health information disappears, and the player is forced to repeatedly fiddle with "|". 16:19:27 Even when there are multiple enemies on screen I think their health should be displayed in the monster list, maybe with monster branding by health color, as opposed to reserving it for stabbability (unaware, sleeping). Health is nice to have immediate feedback on, and if one square in a list of squares is turning redder as you're hitting one orc in a sea of orcs, you get a feel for how much damage you're doing. OTOH, stabbability 16:19:27 is only useful to see in the context of the map anyways (it's not useful to see whether one orc on a sea of orcs is sleeping, without the contextual information of where the orc is relative to you, and whether it's realistic to move toward it silently). 16:19:58 I probably should have pastebinned that? 16:20:22 health colour gets spammed in the messages so i dont really use it in the monster list much 16:21:13 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 16:22:27 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:29 how many active console devs do we have? 16:22:35 mpa, amethyst, amalloy? 16:22:41 I think gammafunk, but I'm not sure 16:22:49 me 16:23:06 I'd welcome any usability patches 16:23:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:23:33 <|amethyst> !lg @devteamnp recent s=name / tiles o=% 16:23:36 419/3045 games for @devteamnp (recent): 1/1x reaver [100.00%], 4/4x wormsofcan [100.00%], 66/66x PleasingFungus [100.00%], 202/202x Brannock [100.00%], 13/13x ontoclasm [100.00%], 20/20x bh [100.00%], 18/18x HangedMan [100.00%], 57/58x Medar [98.28%], 10/194x gammafunk [5.15%], 5/257x Lasty [1.95%], 1/64x wheals [1.56%], 22/1589x Neil [1.38%], 0/24x amalloy [0.00%], 0/78x MarvinPA [0.00%], 0/19x i... 16:23:45 <|amethyst> !lg @devteamnp recent s=name / tiles o=-% 16:23:46 419/3045 games for @devteamnp (recent): 0/30x elliptic [0.00%], 0/390x dpeg [0.00%], 0/6x Keskitalo [0.00%], 0/12x doy [0.00%], 0/78x MarvinPA [0.00%], 0/24x amalloy [0.00%], 0/19x itsmu [0.00%], 22/1589x Neil [1.38%], 1/64x wheals [1.56%], 5/257x Lasty [1.95%], 10/194x gammafunk [5.15%], 57/58x Medar [98.28%], 13/13x ontoclasm [100.00%], 66/66x PleasingFungus [100.00%], 20/20x bh [100.00%], 202/2... 16:29:57 also i know ive begged for removing monster equipment like 500 times but its really not because of console 16:30:17 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 51.0.1/20170125094131]] 16:30:18 its not like you can see monster armour and jewellery any better in tiles 16:31:26 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:31:34 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 16:38:44 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:40:04 -!- laj1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:41 -!- Dixie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:48 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:56:49 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:30 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:58:07 are new egos for non-scarf armour wanted at all 16:59:49 i could see gloves of punching 17:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:06 boxing 17:02:17 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:02:20 how do you cast spells with boxing gloves on 17:02:42 new egos are good 17:02:45 yes, they're wanted 17:03:11 then i stand by rmsl as an armour or shield ego instead of a spell 17:03:39 -!- eb_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:03:41 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03:46 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 17:10:25 -!- AutofireII has joined ##crawl-dev 17:14:09 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:24 -!- Kenran has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24:10 weird things happen to the pick screen when you create a lot of items on one tile 17:24:32 was testing artefact generation for scarves via 120 scrolls of acquirement 17:24:35 a pop 17:26:19 I haven't mastered Crawl, but I think 120 scrolls of acquirement is quite a lot for one run... 17:26:27 haha 17:26:39 I'm in wizard mode, it's useful for testing new code 17:27:41 <|amethyst> weird how? 17:28:03 <|amethyst> &| is probably the quickest way to get a bunch of tems 17:28:05 <|amethyst> items 17:28:15 hard to describe. the sorting seems out of whack, you'll go down and see helmet, body armour, cloaks, gloves... then helmets, body armour, cloaks, gloves 17:28:21 and the same item will show up on both columns sometimes 17:28:42 <|amethyst> hm, I guess that's a webtiles thing 17:28:52 local tiles too 17:28:52 -!- filthy has quit [Quit: please don't look for me] 17:29:48 &| only generates unrands it seems 17:30:10 <|amethyst> yeah, but it produces all of them at once 17:30:10 <|amethyst> :) 17:30:14 <|amethyst> wouldn't help with what you're doing 17:30:26 <|amethyst> but would help with testing the pickup menu in those situations 17:30:29 yeah I want to generate as many artefact scarves as I can to see if anythign weird sprouts up (shouldn't) 17:30:34 I see 17:30:47 whats scarves 17:31:12 new dlc? 17:31:19 new equipment I'm implementing. not sure if they're good enough of an idea to go in 17:32:22 cursed scarf of strangulation? 17:34:05 !tell PleasingFungus What's this silver dragon scale mail I'm seeing?! 17:34:06 Brannock: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 17:34:37 <|amethyst> Brannock: re the sorting, default is (from most to least significant) equipped, basename, qualname, curse, qty 17:34:43 oh I see, the sorting isn't by item type, it's alphabetical 17:34:53 so ancient, then bloodstained, then brightly glowing 17:34:54 -!- meff` has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:59 <|amethyst> Brannock: you can change that 17:35:30 <|amethyst> e.g. sort_menus = pickup: true: slot, basename, qualname, curse, qty 17:35:58 neat, thanks 17:36:05 I'm curious...would scarves function as new equipment items, or would they go in the amulet slot? 17:36:10 cloak slot 17:36:14 0 AC, can't be enchanted 17:36:16 always has an ego 17:36:23 <|amethyst> would cloak lose the ego? 17:36:28 I have to avoid making them into "just another ring" though 17:36:39 No, cloaks would keep poires/invis/magic res 17:36:47 scarves get different stuff. I think I need to come up with new egos too 17:37:23 I'm curious to know what you come up with. Would trade-off effects fit? 17:37:27 <|amethyst> presumably scarves are slow to swap, which keeps them from being "just another ring" in one way 17:37:47 scarf of rmsl :) 17:38:03 <|amethyst> minmay already said that, but it sounded conditional on removing the spell 17:38:42 I have no problem with removing RMsl, especially given its very low barrier of entry, and limiting it to an equipment slot 17:39:04 Which makes its tradeoff marginally more interesting: do you give up 3 AC and a cloak ego for scarf of RMsl, or another scarf with a different ego? 17:39:13 Instead of RMsl being basically a free bonus once you find it 17:39:21 yah that actually sounds decent 17:39:25 DMsl I think is fine to stay since the investment to get it is much more significant 17:40:50 <|amethyst> hm 17:41:10 <|amethyst> so if you made a -1 unrand cloak with rmsl, would anyone wear it? 17:41:22 <|amethyst> or whatever other scarf ego 17:41:41 I probably would, yeah 17:41:45 -!- onmyo has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:42:55 not sure 17:43:54 maybe if you buffed rmsl on spell removal 17:44:10 and give dmsl yet another rework :) 17:44:32 Brannock: here is a handful of mediocre ideas, maybe you can salvage one http://paste.ubuntu.com/23937392/ 17:44:53 haha, a couple of thse would be decent for unrands 17:44:55 thanks 17:46:45 how about rwbarton's idea to extend ponderous to aux slots 17:47:35 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:54 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:01 didn't we have that once upon a time 17:48:03 with old chei 17:48:05 -!- ArseElementalist has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:48:12 <|amethyst> not by natural itemgen though 17:48:23 Boots of Deliberate Movement 17:48:25 yes but the idea is to generate, like, +7 cloaks of ponderousness 17:48:29 <|amethyst> would this idea also increase the 17:48:30 <|amethyst> ah 17:48:31 similar to how +10 plate of ponderousness generates 17:48:40 <|amethyst> I think doing that with scarves would not be great 17:48:51 <|amethyst> since they seem to be designed not to give AC 17:48:54 incredibly long scarf of tripping 17:48:56 I'm still in non-scarf ego mode 17:49:31 the kobold is distracted by you fabulous scarf! 17:49:35