00:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:42 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:59 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 00:16:06 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 00:19:05 !lg * kaux~~iceblast 00:19:06 581. yesno the Unseen (L15 VpEE of Vehumet), killed themself with a badly aimed iceblast on Spider:2 on 2016-12-27 05:18:45, with 75191 points after 22423 turns and 2:35:08. 00:19:12 !lg * kaux~~iceblast s=ckaux 00:19:12 581 games for * (kaux~~iceblast): 581x iceblast 00:19:15 hrm 00:19:19 !lg * kaux~~iceblast s=kmsg 00:19:20 Unknown field: kmsg 00:19:25 rip 00:19:31 that's a lotta iceblasts, in any case. 00:19:41 !lg * kaux~~iceblast killer= 00:19:49 578. yesno the Unseen (L15 VpEE of Vehumet), killed themself with a badly aimed iceblast on Spider:2 on 2016-12-27 05:18:45, with 75191 points after 22423 turns and 2:35:08. 00:19:58 !lg * kaux=iceblast killer!= 00:19:59 3. moogleknight the Swordmaster (L27 DsWn of Makhleb), blasted by an infernal blood saint (iceblast) in Pandemonium on 2016-11-01 08:42:59, with 1298896 points after 119344 turns and 6:50:13. 00:20:02 huh 00:20:07 i had no idea they could do that 00:20:34 Pleasingfungus: they got fireball/iceblast to replace the old major destruction stuff, i think 00:20:40 the return of hellfrost >.> 00:21:13 wow, cold 00:24:50 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-370-gd6af2a4: Finish renaming itemprop to item-prop (|amethyst) 10(6 minutes ago, 112 files, 3469+ 3469-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6af2a48a8dc 00:27:28 interesting that git doesn't detect that as a rename. i wonder why 00:27:43 I'm iterating through a vector of coord_def via a (for foo : bar) loop. When I find one that matches a condition, how do I remove it? clear/erase just gives me errors. Do I need to find the index, instead, and clear it at that index? 00:28:41 Brannock: http://stackoverflow.com/q/1016307/625403 00:28:51 thank you, I couldn't find the right search term 00:29:03 (summary of best answer imo: use erase_if, instead of doing it by hand) 00:29:23 <|amethyst> Brannock: are you just removing them, or doing something with them first? 00:29:25 remove_if? 00:29:39 just getting rid of them 00:29:45 also, i'd personally be tempted to construct a new vector with only the good items :) 00:30:05 not saying that's better, depends on what exactly you're dolng 00:30:05 Brannock: fwiw my search was c++ iterator remove because i knew you should be using an iterator instead of using a simplified for loop 00:30:07 and how many things you expect to remove 00:30:29 well I'm checking all tiles adjacent to the attacker and adding them to the vector (max 8 tiles), if I found a water tile then I don't care about non-water tiles so I want to remove these, but if I dont' find a water tile I want to use the non-water tiles 00:30:56 actually, restructuring this to check first, *then* add would be better 00:31:06 so you want either all the adjacent water tiles; or if there are no adjacent water tiles then instead all tiles? 00:31:10 yes 00:31:24 someone should ask what on earth he's actually doing 00:31:26 i'm going to bed 00:31:28 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.1.0/20161208153507]] 00:31:45 <|amethyst> sounds like a job for partition maybe? 00:31:49 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-369-g71b9d6e (34) 00:31:54 <|amethyst> Brannock: is this a local data structure or global? 00:32:06 local 00:35:33 -!- Zeor has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:37:06 <|amethyst> Brannock: does order of processing matter? 00:37:42 not particularly. I ended up rewriting it to just check if there's water adjacency first before I start adding to vector, instead of doing both at the same time 00:37:50 I think I'm confusing myself though, heh 00:37:51 <|amethyst> this would be easier if adjacent_iterator et al had a way to get an end iterator 00:38:01 <|amethyst> Brannock: what are you ultimately doing with this vector? 00:38:15 <|amethyst> Brannock: it might be possible to skip the vector altogether? 00:38:17 using it as a random set of locations to pull the target into 00:39:02 er, set of locations to randomly pull the target into 00:39:09 choosing one from that set 00:39:16 maybe I should just post the code, hang on 00:39:31 <|amethyst> hm, seems like then you could either use reservoir sampling 00:39:44 http://pastebin.com/1nbLDYUF I want to emphasize I have no idea what I'm doing 00:41:00 <|amethyst> or possibly use a distance_iterator, which iterates in a spiral starting from a random position to be "fair" about direction 00:41:59 <|amethyst> hm, I guess that's harder with the water-or-not-water thing 00:44:08 <|amethyst> Brannock: at the very least you need something like *random_iterator(viable_tile); rather than that % 00:44:32 ah, thanks 00:44:48 <|amethyst> and never use rand() in crawl, use random2 00:44:56 I'm unfamiliar with the distinction 00:45:34 <|amethyst> (also, in general, don't use rand() % blah in any project: it has a slight bias, and with some RNGs is terrible in other ways 00:45:45 I see 00:46:08 <|amethyst> random2(viable_tile.size()) returns a number between 0 (inclusive) and viable_tile.size (exclusive) 00:47:32 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 00:47:56 <|amethyst> random_iterator returns an iterator to a random element of a data structure, if that structure has .begin() and .size() methods 00:48:09 <|amethyst> (TODO: make it work with plain arrays too) 00:49:30 <|amethyst> Brannock: oh, I guess more generally, what about things like walls, monsters, etc? 00:50:04 I hadn't gotten around to checking that yet 00:50:18 was just trying to get the actual selection working then excluding noninhabitable tiles 00:51:09 <|amethyst> Brannock: well, you have the move_to_pos so I suspect you get a crash if you try to stick something in a wall 00:51:14 right 00:55:28 ^status 00:55:28 30 Crawlers. CBRO disk usage=96% (135GB) | RAM usage=29% (4GB)| uptime/CPU= 00:55:27 up 4 days, 5:49, 0 users, load average: 0.88, 0.70, 0.65 (4 Cores) http://status.berotato.org 00:55:54 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:11 http://trixie.webcomic.ws/comics/51/ 00:57:22 this comic is filled with wonderful, wild monster concepts 00:57:31 excellent, got AF_THRASH working. time to code in sanity checks 01:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:53 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:09:55 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-370-gd6af2a4 (34) 01:15:54 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:05 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:20:04 -!- WalrusKing has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:05 http://pastebin.com/1nbLDYUF Getting a silent crash now when the defender is thrashed into deep water. Shouldn't that be caught by line 24? 01:23:58 what's being moved to deep water, the player or a monster? 01:24:02 the player 01:24:18 !source is_feat_dangerous 01:24:19 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#L548 01:24:27 this is the relevant function that's (eventually) called 01:27:47 <|amethyst> Brannock: hm, it will crash if there was no viable tile 01:27:52 ohh I see 01:27:58 it finds a water tile, but the deep water tile isn't viable 01:28:18 yes 01:28:21 -!- Zxpr1jk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:28:25 it checks for water tiles, but not valid water tiles 01:29:01 fixed by adding a check in line 15 then 01:29:50 you might want to silently abort early if there's no viable tiles to thrash to? 01:29:59 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:30:38 <|amethyst> Brannock: btw, you can use adjacent_iterator ai(attacker->pos()) rather than the long thing 01:30:47 oh, nice 01:31:14 <|amethyst> it doesn't do LOS checks, but that's fine since you're doing the is_habitable_feat check 01:33:45 -!- waat has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:54 hallejuah, it works 01:41:01 thanks for all your help |amethyst 01:43:58 oh brannock, question about AF_THRASH 01:44:06 shoot 01:44:10 if you're say flying over a water tile, and all the other surrounding tiles are not water 01:44:13 does that mean thrash does nothing 01:44:41 probably yeah 01:44:46 because that would be a weird, and spoilery interaction 01:46:12 reading over the code carefully, no, they would get thrashed onto solid land 01:46:14 lemme test this though 01:47:06 yes, that's correct 01:47:34 ah,ok 01:48:16 non-flying players would get thrashed onto solid land, too, though, which I dont' think is desirable 01:48:28 the idea is that the gator is pulling them into the water where it can assert supremacy 01:48:39 well they'd get thrashed back into water soon after :v 01:51:28 looking up gator videos while I compile 01:51:34 these things are really powerful, wow 01:51:35 also are you going to give thrashing horrors AF_THRASH? :v 01:51:49 you know, that's not a bad idea 01:52:05 there's no water where those are 01:52:13 they have some weird combination of the batty movement and AF_TRAMPLE which shoves the player around every weird way 01:52:48 also with the thrashing thing, you want to think about what's going to be optimal play versus these if you don't have flight 01:52:53 there's plenty of water in the abyss... 01:52:59 ...no there isn't 01:53:05 there's the abyssal river 01:53:12 and a couple vaults iirc 01:53:21 I mean they have an af type that's going to be useless like 90% of the time 01:53:31 thrashing works on land 01:53:32 well, it thrashes the player around randomly if there isn't water 01:53:37 but it prefers water if available 01:53:44 maybe I should just add a flag for if the monster is amphibious 01:53:44 it just has a spoilery? interaction with water 01:53:53 what does thrashes around mean? 01:54:02 I thought it was specifically pulling player to water 01:54:04 functionally or conceptually? 01:54:14 the af type you've made 01:54:44 on successful attack, randomly reposition the player in an adjacent tile to the attacker, preferring water if possible 01:55:02 -!- ahahaha has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:55:27 there's a chance for this? 01:55:30 50% 01:55:32 or is it 100% of the time 01:55:40 which only gets checked if the attack does damage 01:56:25 testing with a player with 15/15 defenses it goes off every fifth or sixth round or so? 01:56:44 yeah, for the water thing, that's what I'm talking about 01:56:54 oh 01:56:57 it's going to be optimal to move out of water, hit them 01:57:10 wait to be pulled in water, move out, hit them 01:57:26 in short it's going to be a pretty annoying experience 01:57:47 moving out of water means it gets a free attack against you, which can proc the AF again 01:57:56 which only goes off every fight round or so 01:58:04 and fighting in water is supremely bad 01:58:24 specifically talking about when you don't have any flight 01:58:39 right, this was borne out of our discussion the other day about Swamp danger levels and my observation that alligator doesn't have much going for it 01:58:57 sure, I'm not questioning that alligators aren't very dangerous 01:59:40 I'm talking about why specific way these fights will play out, and how they'll be frustrating in a way similar to the iron giant throwing thing 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:16 it's a challenge to make a thing that can move you into water frequently, because you really have to move out of water to fight effectively 02:00:25 the 'gators keep you adjacent though, and I think moving out of the water will be very undesirable given it has a pretty good chance to just pull you back into the water on the same turn you moved (making it a wasted turn) 02:00:43 so the problem becomes "can I kill it before it gets to me" (sprint) or "do I have a way of fighting it in water that isn't subject to water penalties?" 02:00:57 And if the answer is "yes" to both questions, then a further consideration: "will this thrash me near other monsters?" 02:01:09 so now alligators are "Whoa, deal with this!" monsters 02:01:10 it's going to be optimal to move out of water unless you make the chance for it moving back in very high 02:01:34 *for it moving you back in 02:02:26 brannock: there's also "can I lure the gator to a position that has no water surrounding it" 02:02:46 few of these in Swamp 02:02:57 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:03:13 well there's certainly positions like that in swamp 02:03:20 yes 02:05:06 the fumble chance in water feels really high for a lot of chars, although I'm not sure if that learndb quoted chance is accurate 02:05:52 I don't think the water penalties are *that* bad, but if they are, then I think it's neat to have a monster that melee characters want to have alternate ways of fighting them even when they're adjacent 02:06:10 I could make thrash happen 100% of the time on successful attacks? 02:06:15 might get a bit disorienting 02:06:59 !calc 3.0 / 8 02:06:59 0.38 02:07:06 it's 38% you'll miss 02:07:19 just a flat chance now, not based on dex 02:07:34 but it's the same for everyone (that has the penalty) 02:08:20 so it's a really big penalty since alligators do pretty good damage 02:08:32 they're not the most common monster ever, but they're fairly common 02:10:01 so yeah if it's a 1/6 chance or so overall of getting thrashed into water each turn, I'll certainly try to move out 02:10:35 maybe people won't be *that* annoyed, but there will deffo be significant annoyance 02:11:22 and I guess there's no way to not annoy people here, since you're putting them in water 02:11:36 if you succeed in keeping them there, they get to deal with a massive accuracy penalty 02:11:44 and then if you don't, you have this little dance to do 02:12:17 is a 1/3 chance sufficient to keep you in the water and try to fight the alligator, or to use ways of killing it that aren't subject to water penalties? 02:12:17 probably people will really look to get to those dry areas a lot with this, which will mean luring a lot more 02:13:13 yeah obviously the higher that chance goes, the less likely you'll leave, but as I think about it, once you've convinced the player to be in water 02:13:22 you still have all the annoyance that entails 02:13:32 so you really can't solve that problem if you want it to have this kind of water interaction 02:14:10 using other attacks is possible but only to a degree; it does depend on the frequency of the threat 02:14:26 if they were as common as swamp worms there's no way you could have enough alternate attacks for many builds 02:14:40 alligators are pretty common, but not as common as swamp worms 02:14:54 their frequency is adjustable, of course 02:15:00 I'm planning to reduce their frequency (if this goes through) since this is a major upgrade to their deadliness 02:15:05 I'm not even sure how common they are 02:15:07 ??objstat[2 02:15:08 objstat[2/2]: Spreadsheets for all releases: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7VXhHzhWWb7S282VWhLVWRXbG8&usp=sharing ; See the README for details: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5mFqVi8ghz_nzvVmDUc3unx8VanVBWfgvZ8xCHaiJo/edit?usp=sharing 02:15:18 as common as spiny frogs 02:15:33 Brannock: it's probably better if you don't really forcefully put players in water and give them the opportunity to dance out like I describe 02:15:49 since I find fighting in water to be the most annoying thing; you can't hit things 02:16:23 er, my sentence above wasn't very clear 02:16:49 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:03 but I'm saying it's best if the player can at least attempt to dance out of water (i.e. the chance isn't too high compared to the water mallus chance) 02:17:03 -!- darkschneider has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:39 -!- darkschneider has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:43 I guess I'm saying at a high level "imagine fighting an entire branch of these things with some typical melee build" 02:17:47 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:44 we sort of went through this with the op crusher / iron giant throw, the little dancing got to be pretty annoying. there are some differences between thrashing and throw, though 02:19:21 one is that the distance is less with thrashing, you'd only be moving one tile away out of water every so often 02:20:09 only about 7 on average 02:20:13 so it's nothing obscene 02:20:16 I'd thought it was more 02:20:25 between 0 and 20 02:20:31 @??alligator 02:20:31 alligator (12t) | Spd: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | HP: 60-84 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 30, 15 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 896 | Sp: sprint [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 02:20:37 My primary excitement with this is the interaction it would have had with other Swamp monsters 02:21:31 oh yeah, each time you move out of water you have a ... 02:21:34 ??shallow water 02:21:34 shallow water[1/2]: Waist-deep pools of water. Moving through this stuff is gonna be really slow! All but Ogre, Troll, Centaur, Gray draconian, Naga, Merfolk, or Octopode players in shallow water will fumble their attack 4-out-of-DEX times, and 20% of the time regardless as well. Monsters will fumble their attack 1/4 of the time. 02:21:44 There's lots of water in Swamp -- and a monster that would pull you into them. Suddenly all these encounters are potentially much deadlier if an alligator shows up and sprints to you while you're fighting. 02:21:46 funny 02:21:48 ??shallow water[2 02:21:48 shallow water[2/2]: Moving through shallow water is randomly between 30% and 100% slower (both for the player and for monsters). 02:21:52 there we go 02:22:00 does that include moving out of shallow water? 02:22:16 so you move at 1.65 02:22:34 yeah that works in terms of "are you in water at the beginning of the move" 02:22:40 so it's slow getting out 02:22:41 I've won a *lot* of melee characters and I don't think I would attempt to move out of shallow water against alligators 02:23:08 you've probably played one to many cheibriados games then 02:23:11 If I fight and fumble, it's a lost turn. If I move and don't get thrashed, then it's a turn that I don't spend hitting the alligator. If I move and get thrashed, it's a turn I don't spend hitting the alligator (and I take damage). 02:23:53 this reasoning doesn't really work because you're not including chances at all 02:24:47 it will simply boil down to which gives you the best aveefdam 02:25:27 now there will be instances when hitting some specific thing this very turn is somehow relevant, but that would be when you're about to die, probably 02:25:46 the calculation for staying put becomes more favorable the more monsters there are, though 02:26:12 so I will move out of water to strike based simply on me being able to do the most damage on average 02:26:46 ... komodo dragons can spawn in Swamp? til 02:26:51 and if I'm going to miss 40% more that's a big penalty 02:26:54 !lg * ikiller~~komodo br=swamp recent 02:26:55 6. Jerry the Severer (L13 DDGl of Makhleb), slain by a komodo dragon on Swamp:1 on 2016-11-02 16:23:31, with 37918 points after 13254 turns and 1:30:19. 02:26:58 impressive 02:27:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 02:27:49 turns out fighting in water is just a most excellent way to die 02:30:33 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:45:37 -!- Zeor1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:47:30 well I finished my implementation so I'm gonna put it up on a branch for people to poke at and change/merge if they like. going to bed 02:48:01 New branch created: thrash (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/thrash 02:48:01 03Brannock02 07[thrash] * 0.20-a0-371-g7600e6f: Implement AF_THRASH 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 61+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7600e6fce39b 02:48:01 03Brannock02 07[thrash] * 0.20-a0-372-g99077a8: Give alligators AF_THRASH 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/99077a8d1482 02:48:01 03Brannock02 07[thrash] * 0.20-a0-373-gbc3c903: Adjust Swamp spawns 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc3c903f4b4d 02:48:59 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 02:49:51 thrash metal 02:50:05 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:53:33 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:53:53 BIOTECH........IS......GODZILLA 02:59:11 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:15 !tell Brannock i think thrash would make more sense and be much easier to implement if, instead of always choosing water when some is available, you just weighted water tiles more strongly when choosing a random viable tiles 03:01:15 amalloy: OK, I'll let brannock know. 03:01:43 !tell Brannock weighted reservoir sampling would do the job pretty easily 03:01:43 amalloy: OK, I'll let brannock know. 03:03:48 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:38 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:17:42 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:25:30 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-370-gd6af2a4 (34) 03:26:18 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27:42 hey, there are some chinese posts on gdd in tavern 03:28:02 i misidentified one as "korean" when i said it looked like an ad and reported it 03:28:17 but they all look like ads as far as i can tell 03:29:40 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:41 -!- Danei[notDanei] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:50 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:51 The build passed. (thrash - bc3c903 #7453 : Isaac Sloat): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/186914365 03:30:51 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 03:34:56 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:45:36 prozac: if the user is zxc, then it's a bot 03:48:38 I am only half robot 03:49:03 is the other half... also a bot??? 03:49:30 does that mean i should not have reported it? 03:49:38 no, you should have reported it 03:49:40 it's a bot 03:49:54 oh 03:49:56 heh 03:50:06 should i have reported the other 4 or so? 03:50:19 nah, once one is reported the others will probably be picked up 03:50:25 lol 03:50:27 good 03:50:49 because i reported one and thought "i've got way better things to do than report the others" 03:54:24 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:08 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:56 zxc is a robot but with like 3 core integrity left 04:09:06 been running around with flight and no armour for too long 04:09:07 doesn't matter cos flight 04:09:24 just one more shot from a swarmer... 04:10:27 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 04:22:52 -!- n1k has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:31 -!- Taraiph has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:28:13 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:31:32 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:59 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:19 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:46:30 -!- Adum has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:48:04 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:53:30 -!- mzmz has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.5] 04:59:17 -!- DubDrop has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:10 -!- Wiggles has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:16:31 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:29:19 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:35:22 -!- arcanemastermind has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40:49 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:17 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:49:36 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:54:55 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:03 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:58:39 -!- jefus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:14 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:01:12 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:21 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:21 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:18 -!- n1k has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:48:04 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:49:49 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:14 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:58:10 -!- Mephisto_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:10 -!- Melkor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:30 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:09:55 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:16 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:59 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:13 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:30 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:31 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:43:10 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:11 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:27 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:18 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:18 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:44 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:31 -!- Kranix has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:53:50 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:16 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:16 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:32 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:39 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:46 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:46 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:46 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Changing host] 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:57 -!- yuastnav has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:17:39 -!- laj1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:21:13 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:21:54 -!- Adum has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:22:48 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:42 -!- wheals__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:40:20 -!- waat has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:40:45 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Changing host] 08:40:52 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:41:03 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:48 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:45:02 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:51:34 -!- bh has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:26 -!- panicbit has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:56:22 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:56:26 -!- diodrr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:59:17 -!- acalycine has quit [Client Quit] 09:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:27 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:42 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:01 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:29:45 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:45:18 -!- glaas has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:54:03 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:50 -!- Enthusiasm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:06 -!- beaky has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6] 10:17:07 -!- darkschneider has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:28 -!- darkschneider has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:19 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:27 -!- Pleasingfungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:34 CAO is going to move physically sometime in the next week or two (at the discretion of the colo company, I'll give as much warning as I have). Once it's moved, I am going to give it a bunch more hard drive space. 10:37:34 rax: You have 45 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:40:32 <|amethyst> rax: thanks for the heads up, and the extra disk 10:52:30 no problem, thank you for everything you are doing for crawl!! :) 10:53:11 -!- yuastnav has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:53:54 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:48 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:00 -!- zxc has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:10:08 -!- mittak has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6] 11:23:55 thanks rax 11:27:07 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:34 how do mummy heal from rot now? 11:29:43 !tell amalloy that's a good idea, thanks 11:29:43 Brannock: OK, I'll let amalloy know. 11:32:08 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:28 <|amethyst> Brannock: I wouldn't mind giving them the same ability DDs get, but maybe that makes them too good? 11:35:00 pretty sure nothing can rot them in the first place 11:35:06 oh, good 11:35:10 I haven't played mummy in a while 11:35:20 I saw a comment mentioning mummy rot last night 11:35:28 they haven't had their self-restoration ability for some time 11:35:31 Good for Mummies is Anti-Crawl 11:35:39 <|amethyst> oh, right, mutation rot is now stat drain 11:39:01 also re: backlog, i'd agree with gammafunk that thrash doesn't look like a very good mechanic 11:39:54 sirens/avatars do that in a much less bad way, thrash just looks like it'd be obnoxious to deal with (even more so outside water if you're just getting randomly displaced) 11:45:21 hmm, I'm not sure how to deal with alligators then. I'm convinced that alligators are the missing piece in the Swamp puzzle 11:45:40 And there's so much water everywhere in Swamp, it seems odd there isn't a monster that specifically takes active advantage of it 11:47:04 When I play Swamp I make very careful positioning decisions because of the open space and it makes fights much easier than they'd otherwise be. Alligator thrashing would have thrown a wrench into that and made me think about more varied tactical answers to each fight 11:48:27 Shoals has a crapload of "mechanics" and Swamp has comparatively few. I was considering, along with thrash, moving wind drakes into Swamp. That would have left Shoals with waterstrike, knockback (aquamancers), netting, reaching, barbs, mez, and fear 11:48:48 Swamp with thrash, trample, (someday reverse trample?), wind blast, and roots 11:48:58 missing a few, of course 11:49:52 the idea would have been that Swamp has beasts that shove you into the water then finish you off; Shoals has more intelligent enemies that lock down your positioning and strike you from afar 11:50:39 I didn't find thrash very annoying while testing it, but I have a higher tolerance for this stuff than most people I suppose 11:52:07 Swamp also has poison, confusion, constriction, might-on-death, brambles... 12:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:24 spriggan rider mechanics! 12:10:45 So, anyway, as Swamp is famously the least dangerous branch, and alligators are oddly prominent in not really doing that much (though sprinting makes it so that anything they COULD do has to be respected if they show up), I thought I could solve both problems in one stroke by upgrading gators to help them enable other monsters' capabilities 12:10:57 least dangerous of the four S-branches, anyway 12:16:20 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:50 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:03 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 12:22:30 i dunno, is swamp easiest? i often go to snake first 12:22:30 amalloy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:22:48 <|amethyst> amalloy: swamp is visited earliest on average and has the lowest kill rate 12:23:30 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter noun~~^s[pnw] x=avg(xl) s=noun 12:23:45 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter noun~~^s[pnw] s=noun / lg:br=${br} 12:23:51 <|amethyst> err 12:23:55 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh] s=noun / lg:br=${br} 12:24:01 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh] x=avg(xl) s=noun 12:25:00 90s limit exceeded: killed !lm * br.enter noun~~^s[pnw] x=avg(xl) s=noun 12:25:06 <|amethyst> bah 12:25:13 <|amethyst> !lm * current br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh] x=avg(xl) s=noun 12:25:19 <|amethyst> !lm * current br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh] s=noun / lg:br=${br} 12:26:17 418730 milestones for * (br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh]): 114587x Snake [15.74], 113616x Swamp [15.9], 97988x Spider [15.56], 92510x Shoals [16.73], 29x Shrine [4.72] 12:26:32 61260/326192 milestones for * (br.enter noun~~^s[pnw]): 22623/114587x Snake [19.74%], 19776/113616x Swamp [17.41%], 18861/97989x Spider [19.25%] 12:26:40 5364/25083 milestones for * (current br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh]): 1399/6267x Spider [22.32%], 1354/6420x Snake [21.09%], 1308/6650x Swamp [19.67%], 1303/5746x Shoals [22.68%] 12:26:47 79822/418731 milestones for * (br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh]): 22623/114587x Snake [19.74%], 19776/113616x Swamp [17.41%], 18861/97989x Spider [19.25%], 18541/92510x Shoals [20.04%], 21/29x Shrine [72.41%] 12:26:50 25083 milestones for * (current br.enter noun~~^s[pnwh]): 6650x Swamp [15.66], 6420x Snake [15.68], 6267x Spider [15.73], 5746x Shoals [16.48] 12:27:14 <|amethyst> oh, I guess it's not the earliest by much anymore 12:28:23 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter=shrine x=cv,xplbr 12:28:24 Unknown field: xplbr 12:28:25 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.20-a0-370-gd6af2a4 (34) 12:28:26 <|amethyst> !lm * br.enter=shrine x=cv,explbr 12:28:27 29. [2009-11-14 16:34:07] [cv=0.6-a;explbr=] Zippy the Conjurer (L7 NaRe) entered a Shrine on turn 6404. (Shrine) 12:30:14 -!- Rast has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:31:36 <|amethyst> !lg * place=shrine 12:31:42 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:31:47 6. Eifeltrampel the Covered (L2 MDFi of Trog), mangled by an orc warrior in Shrine on 2009-11-11 09:33:08, with 99 points after 921 turns and 0:03:37. 12:31:51 <|amethyst> !lg * place=shrine -log 12:31:56 6. Eifeltrampel, XL2 MDFi, T:921: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Eifeltrampel/morgue-Eifeltrampel-20091111-093308.txt 12:31:58 personally i have had a number of really awful experiences with thorn hunters, and i feel like i can handle basically an unlimited number of nagas with just /disint 12:32:39 but the kill%s don't lie, swamp does look a bit easier 12:33:11 03PleasingFungus02 07[frogs] * 0.20-a0-357-ga1e6a66: Make frogs' hop a 2-level mutation 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 12+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a1e6a66bb5a7 12:33:18 what if the kill %s did lie... 12:33:51 Pleasingfungus: what if level 1 were just an uncontrolled blink instead of limited-range? 12:33:57 no 12:34:18 the race's gimmick is the semicontrolled blink. uncontrolled blink is something different, and less interesting. 12:34:20 brutally denied 12:34:26 rip... 12:34:40 honestly i don't even think this nerf is per se *necessary*, but i wanted to play with it 12:34:46 and playtesting makes it seem... reasonable 12:35:26 this is probably the most playtesting i've done for any of my crawl ideas 12:35:32 it's a fun race :) 12:37:32 Pleasingfungus is getting to explore his amphi-curious tendencies 12:38:29 i thought i had a breakthrough this morning in eliminating one of the theme ideas 12:38:56 when i realized "hey, rabbits are vegetarians! a vegetarian conduct would be dumb, so i can knock rabbits out of the running, and be down to two options!" 12:39:01 then i realized that carnivorous rabbits are cool... 12:39:31 almost nothing in nature is truly vegetarian 12:39:45 calories are calories 12:42:20 i think rabbits are pretty vegetarian. 12:43:13 http://derbyimages.woot.com/918157/3a957bbf-4d78-486d-8166-cebdc44d76ef.jpg 12:43:25 ^ undeniable evidence to the contrary 12:44:34 :) 12:44:44 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:07 -!- Rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:08 also, i really want to implement some command-line flag for running crawl that toggles off debug messages by default 12:45:25 so that i can playtest in fulldebug builds without getting spammed continuously or recompiling 12:49:53 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: we have a thing that's configurable in-game for that, but it only affects a few things 12:50:31 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: on &^Q 12:50:32 yeah, i tried using that setting a while ago, |amethyst, and found there was enough stuff using bare mprf that toggling stuff off was not very useflu 12:51:54 <|amethyst> I'm saying that the way to implement it is to 1) make all debug messages use a category that can be toggled there, and 2) provide an initfile option to toggle those, so you can use e.g. -extra-opt-last diag_messages= 12:53:16 ah, initfile option would work too. i think there was some reason why i preferred a runtime flag, but i forget what 12:53:24 also, &^Q affects *most* things, and that's what i'm using now 12:53:31 just a pain to toggle every time i start/load a game 12:54:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:54:32 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: it's even initialised in initfile.cc (because it's in game_options), but there's no rc option for it yet 12:55:22 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:03 <|amethyst> Pleasingfungus: you'd want to modify all dprf calls to pass a DIAG_* (diag_type) as the first argument, and maybe change some debug-only mprfs to dprfs 12:56:18 i think that'd be nice but not required 12:56:36 <|amethyst> I guess you could have a toggle in &^Q for "the rest" 12:56:48 <|amethyst> though I guess that's DIAG_NORMAL? 12:57:33 <|amethyst> ah, indeed 12:57:51 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.20-a0-371-gbe7c41a: Remove a duplicate acq message 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be7c41aee4fa 12:57:51 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.20-a0-372-gb9ad934: Remove lava acquirement 10(55 seconds ago, 1 file, 14+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9ad934c9e22 12:57:59 <|amethyst> so I guess anything that can't be toggled there somehow is one of those debug-only mprfs that amalloy mentioned 12:58:28 rot timers seem to be an untoggleable category, i think 12:58:34 !source rot.cc 12:58:35 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/rot.cc 12:58:37 can I still acquire open sea? 12:58:48 critical for roleplaying/lore 12:58:49 oh, no, that's an mprf 12:58:52 you're right 12:58:58 gammafunk: if you believe in yourself... 12:59:22 <|amethyst> oh, one console UI problem with always_show_exclusions 13:00:00 <|amethyst> it makes water/deep water/lava all look the same 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:07 <|amethyst> not really sure how to deal with that 13:00:26 <|amethyst> other than maybe using background colours for exclusions, but I'm sure that's ugly as sin 13:05:56 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:29 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-372-gb9ad934 (34) 13:16:48 -!- Tiltorax has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:42 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:55 -!- Tarara is now known as Taraiph 13:20:57 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 13:25:17 -!- lukano is now known as snapek 13:36:12 anyone have the dos version of linleys? 13:39:39 found it on dos archive 13:45:58 running it in dosbox, or? 13:47:29 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:19 Yeah, just added hack and avanor and mag too.. going to play it on android.. YESTHATSRIGHTONANDROID 14:04:25 fr*gged *p 14:05:13 also it's important everyone sees this http://i.imgur.com/J9ytI7g.jpg 14:05:38 masterpiece voice of a generation 14:06:04 sadly, not a lot of chat vibes right now... 14:06:14 feel free to !add it to gammafunk's learndb, i'm sure he'll appreciate it. 14:07:42 the discord is where it's at, we all know this 14:07:50 Follow the next chat fad 14:07:54 For coolness 14:09:30 "For coolness" --Dracunos, coolness expert 14:12:02 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:17 uhh who is the other person in that image? 14:18:10 pf and gamma 14:18:24 combine to form gammafungus 14:18:33 But they can only hold that form for half a minute 14:19:49 It's the only way to defeat amalloy-bu's final form 14:19:55 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 14:19:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:21:21 -!- xnavy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:23:17 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:24:34 -!- rossi has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:22 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:54 -!- tsujin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:40:56 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:56 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:42:57 -!- Basil is now known as Guest79479 14:43:34 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-373-g2e40481: Replace branching with boolean expression 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e4048123d77 14:45:23 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:49 so I think I'm getting closer to how to do these teleporters in map_lines 14:50:00 I'll directly add a position marker 14:52:50 -!- LordSloth has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:26 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:46 why does targetter_smite print "There is a wall there." when you're targeting (but have not yet selected) a wall, but eg the cblink targetter does not? 15:01:18 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:38 i think cblink just doesn't use an actual targeter 15:04:18 well, that's certainly true. it does its own thing that's i guess like a janky targetter 15:04:25 should that be changed? 15:04:42 it just uses direction(), which is what everything used before targeters existed 15:05:42 cblink isn't a case where it makes a big difference so i guess that's why it's not been changed since, although yeah it's probably good to move towards more consistency there 15:06:23 i've run into issues with aiming cblink in games, actually, which made me sad. like if you aimed it at a monster, what happened was awful 15:06:43 hrm 15:06:45 also the fact that "targetter" is still spelled wrong all over the code makes me v. sad 15:06:46 i fixed that one case, but it sounds like making it a targetter would be a better way to regularize 15:06:50 -!- adelrune has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07:12 MarvinPA: aren't both valid? 15:07:25 hrm, perhaps not 15:07:27 outside french 15:07:35 i've never seen double ts used outside of crawl 15:07:44 google hasn't either 15:07:45 yeah i assumed it was a britishism like traveller, but evidently it is just wrong 15:07:57 and when it was done that way the argument was that double-t was a british/australianism, and i can definitely say it's not the former :P 15:08:30 i'm blaming galehar 15:09:23 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-373-g2e40481 (34) 15:09:24 it was a kb thing iirc 15:09:42 heh 15:10:06 i'll just rename it then 15:10:26 but yeah, using a targeter to straight-up prevent selecting walls/visible monsters/whatever sounds reasonable 15:12:21 03amalloy02 07* 0.20-a0-374-g910a2e5: Rename targetters to targeters (MarvinPA) 10(11 seconds ago, 25 files, 248+ 248-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/910a2e5333f1 15:12:40 gosh, amalloy is padding his + and - so well 15:12:44 I need to up my game 15:12:47 haha, i was just going to say, yeah 15:12:55 pales in comparison to the last one though! 15:13:06 "oh oops I deleted all the cc files that commit...here's a revert commit" 15:13:32 dang, i'll have to be more subtle to get by gammafunk 15:13:52 no one pulls the targetter out from under me 15:14:12 one fun thing i happily remembered to check while implementing frog hop (which shares cblink targeting code) was 15:14:17 "what happens if the player uses ! while targeting?" 15:14:24 yeah, i noticed that 15:14:31 since cblink has full LOS range, there was no check for that.... 15:14:39 power blink out of LOS 15:14:48 go hurtling at high speed 15:14:55 wizard blink has some good error messages 15:14:57 Please don't blink into the map border. 15:14:59 power blinking requires EXTREMELY strong eyebrow muscles 15:15:03 MarvinPA: oh yeah i love those 15:15:21 very different attitude from other wizmode error messages. "You smelly wizard...!" 15:16:38 good message if a Wz wears Zhor, potentially 15:17:40 -!- Pleasingfungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.1.0/20161208153507]] 15:20:37 Hopper the Slasher, Frog of Trog. belongs in ng-poetry.cc imo 15:22:44 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:03 <|amethyst> re frogs, what if you only gave them amphibious at low levels? 15:24:33 <|amethyst> and at, say, level 5 or 7 or whatever, they gain a boot slot and lose the ability to use deep water 15:24:53 <|amethyst> or maybe that's when they gain jump 15:25:11 Why can't frogmen be amphbious? 15:25:46 <|amethyst> I think the concern was that it makes Op and grey drac (and to a lesser extent Mf) less special 15:27:06 hey still have their own quirks of 8 rings and more AC. 15:27:36 The AC part is pretty boring tho. 15:29:27 Tiltorax, do you think rF or rC for red/white dracos is boring? 15:29:40 the 5 AC is stronger 15:30:18 I know it's strong, but it's still kind of dull considering they don't get breath; I like it when I get it, but am kind of disappointed by how it works. 15:31:52 flavor frog amphibiousness not as swimming, but as wearing portable lilypads on their feet 15:34:40 -!- syllogism has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:52 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:34 -!- coledot has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:05 Clearly frogs need built in lesser beckoning 15:51:39 that was a possible feature to include, yes 15:51:41 tongue attack 15:51:51 HypnoToad with built in mesmerize 15:52:36 Useful for orb spiders, and... bats? 15:52:39 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:51 I think PF didn't really want to mess with slot restrictions 15:56:29 since a lot of species do this already and it's less fun when you already have a big movement limitation 15:57:14 |amethyst: player doesn't see much water that's very notable before early xls like 5-7 15:57:58 they'll see some, of course, but with no combat bonus like for mf, it's going to mostly be some shallow water that they could use..well I guess there would still be a combat bonus 15:58:10