00:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:23 alright, chequers, johnstein, any other lovely gentlepersons who want to host this dank fork 00:04:32 we are 100% ready for action 00:05:03 I give about 10 hours before someone reports a gamebreaking bug and I have to frantically fix a bunch of crap tomorrow night 00:05:23 hell ya 00:05:28 game development is amazing 00:05:34 its fucking great 00:06:11 updating 00:07:58 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:15:36 hellmonk: so are you on /vg/ HYPING hellcrawl just 24/7? 00:15:56 or do you delegate that to Lightli 00:16:07 what's hellcrawl 00:16:11 I don't post in vg 00:16:12 wow, I guess not 00:16:33 @gammafunk I have seen the .20 plan 00:16:47 when I removed the old learndb 0.20 plan 00:16:48 dang it too much time on that newfangled discord thing 00:16:49 I read the threads sometimes, the only feedback I saw was "this looks even more retarded than the main game" 00:16:55 I told you to read the new plan when you complained 00:17:01 by your response at the time I thought you had 00:17:08 I hadn't :v 00:17:08 I added that right after removing the learndb one 00:17:10 but they liked my meme randart names referencing the mumo challenge (regular crawl approved! thanks pf) 00:17:16 or at the same time, rather 00:17:46 what are the mumo randart names? 00:18:08 pharaoh's fist, true pharaoh 00:18:23 I see 00:21:36 -!- Rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:41 -!- bgiannan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:43 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.0.2/20161129173726]] 00:24:58 -!- Rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:34 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:06 -!- bgiannan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:31:29 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6 (34) 00:38:17 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 00:46:38 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:43 -!- vwvwvwv has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:50:12 hellmonk: live on cpo 00:50:23 woo, thank you 00:54:14 -!- alhpamlae has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:16 chequers: I've never hosted an experimental from a different remote. you wouldn't think that would cause any issue would you? I don't think you run the same setup but figure you'd know. I can't think that it would be an issue 01:04:00 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:08:25 i doubt it, but i know very little about dgl 01:09:08 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 01:12:13 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:33 -!- Cacophony has quit [Quit: oh no am scare] 01:19:09 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 01:19:35 johnstein: that's more a question for |amethyst probably, I'd say it's a question for me as well, but all I'd be able to do is to help you diagnose if something breaks 01:19:54 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6 (34) 01:19:57 gammafunk, yea. I'm almost certain it's not an issue 01:20:14 best time to screw up a server is just after tourney though, so should be OK 01:20:19 yeah, I can't see how it'd be hard to extend the dgl setup to support a different repo 01:20:27 even if there are issues, they're probably very fixable 01:20:30 the update script just does a git pull I think 01:20:55 so I figure the biggest issue is if I pull the hellcrawl branch down as a branch with the same name in the official repo 01:20:59 maybe at some point snark could be convinced to add hellcrawl as a game type 01:21:10 and I'd have to be using that branch in a hosted game 01:21:14 heh 01:21:33 just need a Hellquell fork 01:21:37 we have to be careful about building out infrastructure for projects like these 01:21:38 Seqhell 01:21:51 since who knows what will happen to them 6 mo later 01:22:14 by infrastructure I mean more system-wide things like sequell and scoring stuff 01:22:59 -!- twelwe has quit [Client Quit] 01:23:35 -!- twelwe has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:42 -!- M-bbigras has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:25:06 -!- bgiannan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:06 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30:22 -!- bgiannan has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:25 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 01:35:21 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 01:37:21 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:37:55 -!- WalrusKing has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:39:34 -!- bug_sniper has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:41:46 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:44:57 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:32 -!- onmyo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:51:25 -!- bgiannan_ is now known as bgiannan 01:52:31 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:31 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:07 -!- kogasa has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:52 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:53:52 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:53:52 -!- gressup has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:53:53 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:30 -!- Doesnty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:56:56 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6 01:57:19 -!- tsujin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:14 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:16:58 ??ood 02:16:58 ood[1/2]: Crawl sometimes generates unusually hard monsters to keep you on your toes. The maximum possible is a 9 level difference, or 5 on D:1; add random2avg(27,2) as a special farmer penalty which only triggers after ~1k turns and is quite rare even then. Other times when something seems overly powerful, it's just a vault -- e.g. death yak guarding the lair. 02:17:02 ??ood[2 02:17:02 orb of destruction[1/8]: Iskenderun's Orb of Destruction - level 7 pure conjuration homing missile spell. Moves at speed 30 with inertia - if something casts this at you, sidestep, but watch out behind you! It does less damage at short range; at melee range it only does about half damage. Only in the book of Power and randart books. 02:18:50 if i spend 15k turns on a level, will it still give orb run spawns? 02:35:04 -!- PElf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:24 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:40:07 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:32 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:04 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:41:47 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:51 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:13 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 03:05:58 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09:42 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:34 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:38 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:39 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:42 -!- M-bbigras has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:32 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:23:37 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:23:48 Experimental (councilgod-PR) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-264-gaba7314 03:33:13 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:50 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:31 -!- Lasty has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:38:20 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6 (34) 03:40:28 -!- Zeor1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:42:32 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:10 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:57:47 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:57:55 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:21 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:28 -!- jerkstore has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:13:19 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:23 04:19:17 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:20:24 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Quit: I like to rock] 04:27:31 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:27:38 -!- Vitalus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:51 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:50 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:36:05 -!- ig0rbit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:23 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:51 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:10 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:16 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:35 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:46:25 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:06 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:50:29 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:50:47 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:56:33 -!- jefus- has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:14 -!- jeefus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:17:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:19:31 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:26:29 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:27 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:27:35 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:50 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:32:10 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:40:25 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:40:32 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:11 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:00:17 -!- Ratatosk has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:13 Rast--: no. each branch has its own list of monsters 06:13:27 Rast--: ood monsters are selected from that list, just rolled at a deeper depth 06:13:34 Rast--: orb run spawns are a special, separate thing 06:14:45 -!- ddubois has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:47:08 -!- Lasty has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:49:48 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 07:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:40 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:02:21 -!- _Jordan_ has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:05:12 -!- Ratatosk has quit [Quit: Ratatosk] 07:17:14 -!- kramin is now known as Postquell 07:17:19 -!- Postquell is now known as Kramin 07:17:37 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:51 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:08 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:48:40 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:07 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:33 -!- smips has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:03:25 -!- Kramin is now known as Postquell 08:06:19 -!- Postquell is now known as Kramin 08:19:24 -!- Bodrick has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:26 -!- myp has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:27:00 -!- Kramin is now known as Postquell 08:27:05 -!- Postquell is now known as Kramin 08:38:34 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:43:20 fazisi (L15 DgFE) (D:13) 08:44:10 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:59 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:45 !killratio donald * current 09:11:17 -!- Kramin is now known as aegfdhhasdfa 09:11:26 -!- aegfdhhasdfa is now known as Kramin 09:11:27 donald wins 1.609% of battles against * (current). 09:11:38 !killratio asterion * current 09:11:55 asterion wins 1.661% of battles against * (current). 09:12:05 -!- tabstorm has joined 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haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 10:41:55 -!- Barfbag has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:09 chequers, I've noticed in sprint that if you hang around after picking up the orb.... you stop getting orb spawns after a while 10:48:16 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 10:51:41 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:17 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:28 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:56 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:05 !messages 11:15:05 No messages for SteelNeuron. 11:15:10 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:19:16 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:33 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:15 -!- vermi is now known as vermifax 11:26:31 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 11:36:27 -!- hellmonk has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:01 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 11:38:58 -!- 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##crawl-dev 14:23:43 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:47 hello devs, this is guys. Could you please update trunk build; the old one is like over a month old. Let us experience the awesomeness of level 5. p. cloud and TSO spider form. Guys thanks, over and out 14:27:37 -!- oberste1n has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:06 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:32 -!- omarax has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:32 -!- DrKe has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:32 -!- cait has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:33 -!- wheals_ has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:33 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- ChaseSP has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- minmay has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- eki has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- geekosaur has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- vermifax has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:34 -!- woodjrx has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:35 -!- Svitkona has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:36 -!- oberstein has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:36 -!- escu has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:37 -!- Ragnor has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:37 -!- Kalma has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:38 -!- lynn has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:38 -!- tupper has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:39 -!- Xjs|moonshine has quit [*.net *.split] 14:28:59 -!- DrKe has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:10 -!- cait_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:31 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:45 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 14:34:17 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:33 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:46 -!- lynn__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:59 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:16 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 14:40:26 -!- Rotatell has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:40:34 -!- nefhilion_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:40:41 -!- johnstein has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:34 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:46:07 -!- johnstein has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:06 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:13 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:58 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:48:08 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:48:31 which trunkb uilds aren't being updated? 14:48:43 !locate removeelyvilon 14:48:44 removeelyvilon was last seen on CUE (removeelyvilon, L1 DsSu of No God). 14:49:06 &versions 14:49:14 CAO: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CBRO: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CDO: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CJR: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CPO: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CUE: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, CWZ: 0.20-a0-2-g2b0e13a, CXC: 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6, LLD: 0.20-a0-253-g627bfb6 14:49:36 looks up to date except the Asian servers 14:49:42 %git 14:49:42 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.20-a0-266-gdedccd6: Use an early return for ugly thing colour 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dedccd634c13 14:52:07 oh, he means the downloadable version 14:52:34 Last updated 2016-10-26, 0.19-a0-1937-g70ed36a) 14:52:52 can confirm that is like over a month old 14:54:12 I thought the downloadable trunk was automatically updated 14:54:16 do we have to manually update it every now and then? 14:54:43 the lastest build is there on the rss feed 14:56:04 maybe the "last updated" link generation is stuck on 0.19-a0 though 14:56:45 (http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/rss/crawl.php) 15:00:02 -!- omarax_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:39 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:16 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Client Quit] 15:08:12 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:18:16 brannock: the trunk build was probably stopped for the tournament 15:18:45 yeah, at a guess gammafunk or amethyst did it? 15:19:29 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:52 -!- kdrnic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:26 -!- irctc023 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:07 that would surprise me tbh 15:33:32 -!- adelrune has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:34:25 -!- tabstorm has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:57 -!- Rotatell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:00 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:59 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43:42 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:51 -!- Dracunos is now known as Dracunos_ 15:54:04 -!- Zekka_ has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:55:30 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57:20 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 16:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:07 -!- Dracunos_ is now known as Dracunos 16:00:35 -!- _Jordan_ has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:01:44 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:06:18 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:07:04 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:17 -!- M-bbigras has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:13:33 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:14 -!- bgiannan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:05 -!- ldf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:29 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 16:18:49 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:39 -!- hellmonk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:51 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:26:10 -!- LexAckson__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:29:25 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:16 -!- oberste1n has quit [Quit: uhhh] 16:30:51 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:27 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:28 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 16:36:26 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 16:36:45 -!- Kranix has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:38:16 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:16 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:40 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:05 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:33 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:44 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:44 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:07 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:44:12 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48:39 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:14 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:26 -!- bgiannan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:52:15 -!- Kranix has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:56:30 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:05 -!- bgiannan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:58:18 -!- escu_ is now known as escu 16:58:48 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 17:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:12 -!- f0rbidden has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:00:29 -!- jefus- has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:01:07 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:59 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:05 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:04:40 -!- bgiannan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:00 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:08 -!- Kite has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.5] 17:14:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:15:23 -!- adelrune has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:39 -!- Rewans has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:18:05 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:27 -!- Kranix has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:24:36 -!- Zekka_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24:37 -!- nat has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:55 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 17:27:00 dev question, is there documentation on the WebTiles client? more specifically, how are the JSON messages being sent over WebSockets formatted 17:28:51 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:31:06 !source tileweb.cc 17:31:07 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc 17:31:27 unfortunately, this is probably about as close as you'll come to docs 17:32:39 PleasingFungus: yea i saw that file, was hoping there was something nicer. thank you though! 17:32:58 crawl has very good documentation for vaults, and not much else (from a dev perspective) 17:33:34 PleasingFungus: heh, actually if you could point me to where the client-side code for WebTiles is, it would probably be a little more helpful 17:34:17 it's in the webserver/ directory in crawl/crawl-ref/source 17:34:42 i narrowed it down to this folder: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/scripts 17:34:43 ok 17:34:55 -!- Zekka_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:35:31 webserver/game_data/static/ might be more helpful 17:35:55 <|amethyst> webserver/static/scripts/client.js is the biggest user of send_message 17:37:06 <|amethyst> also some users in webserver/game_data/static (menu.js, messages.js, and mouse_control.js); and one more in websterver/static/scripts (chat.js) 17:37:11 <|amethyst> s/sterv/serv/ 17:37:51 <|amethyst> the implementation of send_message is in webserver/static/scripts/comm.js but there's not much to see there 17:40:52 ok, i should be able to gleam the gist of it. thanks for pointing me in the right direction. 17:41:55 whatcha tryin to do? 17:43:18 -!- THERetroGamerNY has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 17:43:24 i've been messing around with Mozilla' A-Frame (https://aframe.io/) so i might try to make a DCSS viewer in VR to get some practice 17:44:11 oh, hadn't heard of that! 17:44:13 sounds cool 17:45:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:54 -!- bgiannan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:53:23 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 17:53:58 -!- HarryHood has joined ##crawl-dev 17:56:15 ??rebuild 17:56:15 rebuild[1/2]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://underhound.eu:81/rebuild/ http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rebuild/ http://crawl.xtahua.com/rebuild/ https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rebuild/ Bug |amethyst or Nap.Kin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 17:59:26 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:22 -!- timvisher has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:07 -!- Svitkona_ is now known as Svitkona 18:03:53 -!- lynn__ is now known as lynn 18:04:45 !seen lasty 18:04:46 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:04:46 I last saw Lasty at Mon Dec 5 20:43:42 2016 UTC (2h 21m 3s ago) joining the channel. 18:04:47 -!- Ge0ff has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:49 !messages 18:04:50 (1/1) Brannock said (2d 18h 57m 19s ago): what is your opinion about Brogue's aesthetics? 18:05:00 Brannock: around? 18:05:02 sup 18:05:51 Brannock: Brogue is, and has been, advertised for its glossy ASCII aesthetics. Not only do I find its visuals off-putting, I think the colours actually hamper clarity. 18:05:57 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:14 Console is really good for clarity: much, much easier to parse than whatever you can do with tiles or more advanced graphics. 18:06:46 Brogue throws this advantage out of the window, and sometimes crucial gameplay features are extremely hard to figure out (gas/water/lighting etc.) 18:07:20 It's so annoying that Pender eventually succumbed to my ranting and created a "reduced color mode", you can assess it with the \ key. :) 18:08:25 I see, thanks. I personally didn't have a problem parsing it, but I'm told that I'm much more visually oriented than most people. 18:08:39 I can see how the colors could interfere 18:08:44 What people *should* have raved about instead are some extremely slick design decisions: (1) the scroll of enchanting, (2) weapon distinction, (3) very few monsters, and monster types, but so effective, (4) meaningful builds with very few items etc. 18:08:51 http://wootfu.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/brogue2b.gif a good example. It's difficult to tell exactly where the water starts 18:09:50 I know that some die-hard roguelikers are appalled by the puzzles, the removal of xp, and the focus on terrain/traps over combat. OTOH, it is awesome to see a good game get away with all of this. :) 18:10:13 (Interface-wise, I think Pender should do something about permanent 's'earching, but apart from that: a gem of a game, imo.) 18:11:09 How many other roguelikes do you play? 18:12:08 very few: started with Nethack and played that a lot, then Crawl (my sister gave me the final pre-DCSS version), a bunch of really small ones, and Brogue. 18:12:21 I am not very open... so little time :) 18:12:40 Ah, was curious about that "die-hard roguelikers" comment 18:12:43 We should steal good ideas from everywhere! Axe cleaving is directly lifted from Brogue. 18:13:05 I am strongly in favor of thievery 18:13:21 Brannock: oh, this is an observation about tavern posters dismissing Brogue for these reasons (I used to advertise there, ofc.) 18:13:48 so if you see a mechanic anywhere that might work for Crawl: at least mention it =) 18:14:02 Experimental (hellcrawl-cbro) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1893-ge087f11 18:14:05 uh oh 18:14:17 for example, I suggested slime creature merging after playing Amorphous+ for a bunch of days 18:14:18 what did you dooooooo 18:14:27 I'd been checking out a couple other roguelikes (Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead recently) and it was fascinating seeing how much stuff they packed into the game, and their workflow process. Extremely different from how the Crawl philosophy would have approached it 18:14:47 "Bloat" doesn't exist to the CDDA team. Everything goes into it, and what came out was a surprisingly robust crafting and survival game 18:15:11 Not really a roguelike, though 18:15:23 that sounds like honeymoon talk 18:15:25 I hear so many good things about Sil, and I gave it several serious tries, but for the life of me I couldn't get into it. I just don't see the appeal, although it ticks all the right design boxes. 18:15:31 Oh, I'm certainly off the CDDA honeymoon 18:15:36 sil character creation/skilling drove me insane 18:15:47 if CDDA and DF weren't such resource hogs, I'd host them again 18:16:00 Lots of things I do not like about that game, particularly how they handle enemy design and power scaling 18:16:01 PleasingFungus: weren't/aren't elliptic and MarvinPA big fans of Sil? 18:16:10 probably! 18:16:28 iirc mpa made a fork? 18:16:30 I wanted to mostly talk about how different other dev team philosophies are 18:16:33 ISTR that some Crawl features are Sil-inspired but I cannot tell you which... perhaps SoS? 18:16:37 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:42 Brannock: do you have any specifics in mind? 18:16:46 Brannock: are you familiar with Excursion? 18:16:49 yeah, song of slaying is pretty sil 18:16:50 I mainly covered it above 18:17:01 dpeg, the D&D one? I tried playing it years ago but couldn't get past how fiddly everything was 18:17:03 you talked exclusively in generalities... i don't really know what you mean! 18:17:15 gammafunk, not sure if you're the person to ask about this, but apparently the downloadable build for trunk hasn't updated since October 26th 18:17:51 Brannock: they had (I think the game is dead) an interesting design document... I recall I was seriously miffed for a while when someone said that Excursion's gods are deeper and rounder (or similar) than Crawl's :) 18:19:20 PleasingFungus: is there any movement to do something about Trog book burning? If not, I wouldn't want to wake sleeping dogs. But if there is, I'd lay down some suggestions for spellbooks in general. 18:19:25 PleasingFungus, http://www.wiki.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?title=Firearms scroll to the bottom and check out all the different types. Other item categories are similarly expansive 18:19:45 hellmonk: do you want auto updates turned on for nightly rebuilds? or would you prefer the usual handcrafted manual rebuilds? 18:19:51 Also, all of these are craftable. And nearly everything in the game is able to be scavenged and disassembled 18:20:01 basically anyone with dgl dev access to cbro could rebuild 18:20:08 manual would be best 18:20:27 Brannock: I have also played a lot of Curious Expedition... as always when I do get to play such a game, I talked to the dev(s), and got stuff into the game (as with Brogue :) 18:20:36 I have a tendency to push things that don't actually work, so if you do nightly rebuilds it'll be unplayable sometimes 18:20:38 dpeg: i have a todo item to go and clean up the book library patch. that would mean that whenever you 'picked up' a book, its contents would be added to memorizable spells, and the book itself would vanish (like gold) 18:20:58 as for the CDDA workflow: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/commits/master I don't actually have anything to criticize here, just a bit of culture shock after working with Crawl for a few months 18:21:02 ty for doing this 18:21:11 hellmonk: ok. I will leave it manual. that's kinda what I figured 18:21:19 anyway, I found the experience interesting 18:21:23 dpeg: but i've been holding off, since you emailed me a bit back :) 18:21:37 hellmonk: np. just trying to solidify CBRO's place as Experimental HQ 18:21:53 PleasingFungus: hm, I need to think about this. From an interface PoV it certainly makes a lot of sense. I'm *very* partial to Trog book burning, although the two are not even incompatible... :) 18:21:58 Brannock: i don't know what point you're trying to make 18:22:09 I'm not trying to make a point 18:22:14 . 18:22:20 * dpeg makes a point 18:22:26 Well I guess my point is "Wow, the CDDA team does things almost entirely different than we would" 18:22:34 But that's more of an observation 18:22:35 dpeg: not strictly incompatible, but they don't work very well together 18:22:43 Brannock: as does Nethack or Tome, I guess 18:22:55 Brannock: how different does that look from our list of spells, or monsters? 18:23:03 PleasingFungus: so I now see why you were eager to remove book amnesia 18:23:04 we certainly have a heck of a lot more monsters than cdda has guns 18:23:37 dpeg: I can't remember if book amnesia removal came out of the discussion about book libraries; it may have predated that. in any case, i think it was independently worthwhile 18:23:52 Brannock: you mean the coding? or the githubbing? 18:23:55 the githubbing 18:24:16 lots of PRs, lots of direct community involvement, a bunch of mods for the game 18:24:33 if someone comes up with a new type of food or recipe or something, it probably goes straight into the game 18:24:42 haha 18:24:43 I always liked the idea of shrines in crawl. for the strategic items like books and enchant scrolls 18:24:47 i think stone soup used to be a bit more like that 18:24:53 Brannock: we're more exclusive, and I am happy about that 18:25:02 curated 18:25:15 but yeah, i don't see that as being a particularly good thing. imagine if every tavern suggestion made it in... 18:25:22 I remember a good convo about shrinish things in here a couple years ago. I forget how it ended 18:25:46 well and there's still a fair amount of non dev content 18:25:54 sounds like a step backward, tbh 18:25:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:26:00 shrines, wrt usability 18:26:27 I like moving strategic resources out of the inventory, but I don't like having to mark down locations of shrines and explore back to them when I want to use them 18:26:30 it freed up inventory and required some time and effort to get to the nearest one 18:26:46 but I think one of the valid criticisms was just to add another screen 18:26:46 PleasingFungus: assuming that the library goes in, this is how I'd like to see Trog interaction then: books you see instantly burn; when you take on Trog with a non-empty library, it is emptied; books on levels you've already been on disappear. 18:26:50 and do away with the trivial costs 18:26:58 Brannock: i assume you'd be able to ctrl-f back to them 18:26:59 so no longer a tactical power, but the books still burn 18:27:12 yea Brannock. exactly that 18:27:18 burn, baby, burn 18:27:34 Brannock: one important difference is that the "winrate" in cdda can be a lot higher, since it's possible to powergame. IMO that makes the game more resilient to adding random crap and seeing what sticks 18:27:40 I liked the idea that the more shrines you found the bigger the boost but you could access them from a menu rather than having to travel 18:27:47 ripping pages out of books, and throwing the remains into the fire, that's what I do all days 18:27:59 so finding them fees fun but you don't have to worry about the tedium 18:28:11 it's a bit dwarf fortress like in that you can play a successful game quite easily, but there are a lot of non-optimal systems around the edges which are fun 18:28:12 dpeg: why do those things? I understand why you'd want to do them together if you do them at all (and it seems like a very consistent package), but why do any of them, if not to mimic current behaviour? do you think it's needed for 'balance', or just appropriate for flavour? 18:28:47 CDDA is right up there with DF on games I wish I had more time to better learn and play 18:29:35 PleasingFungus: gameplay: Trog shuts you out of casting, including post-service; flavour: I think it is very strong. 18:30:24 If you want to go casting after Trog, I think it's much more interesting this way. 18:31:11 some argue that the Optimal Player wouldn't switch away from trog anyway. 18:31:30 well, Trog being too strong is a separate issue 18:31:33 (I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate here; I don't have a strong position, I'm just trying to explore the issue.) 18:31:43 well, it's partially that trog is strong, but also that trog wrath is pretty nasty! 18:31:56 * dpeg strictly plays Trog's advocate 18:32:27 I would like to say that a wizard stole my first girl fried, but it wouldn't be true. 18:32:35 *friend 18:32:38 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:33:14 -!- kdrnic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34:47 do any other gods besides Ru force you to permanently discard abilities/options? 18:35:06 nemelex, in a certain sense 18:35:08 Nemelex used to 18:35:20 well, nem wrath now destroys all decks 18:35:27 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 18:35:39 but yeah, historical nemelex (and ely) are good examples 18:35:50 johnstein: what I suggest here for Trog isn't permanent at all, though: you simpply have to build a new library... so you'd abandon Trog *before* Elf or doing the ziggurat, say. 18:36:23 (I'm not necessarily advocating against shutting off casting post trog, just mentioning that from a newb to middling player, it feels Ru-ish 18:36:38 dpeg: oh 18:37:13 I said "shutting off casting", but it really only means "start with no books available"... you will find plenty of books. 18:37:46 which describes most trog games anyway 18:37:50 (and that's why I think this makes for a more interesting than having all 150 spells available post-Trog right away) 18:38:08 If you're a good Troggie, yeah. 18:38:09 well most of mine since I don't know if I've ever left trog 18:39:21 PleasingFungus: I also thought about the spellbook interface problem: my proposal would've been far less radical: (1) don't general duplicates (because they have no meaning now that book-amnesia is gone), and (2) generate way fewer randart books. 18:39:42 i think that's a pretty much unrelated proposal 18:40:25 hm, perhaps 18:41:22 i'm not sure that getting a duplicate book is worse than getting a duplicate weapon or piece of armour 18:41:39 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:40 well, both are useless items, hence interface clutter -- the difference is that we need to generate these armour/weapon items for monsters, but the duplicate spellbooks are completely pointless (barring book amnesia and Trog piety) 18:42:45 ??hellcrawl 18:42:46 hellcrawl[1/1]: A meme fork developed by hellmonk. Features: less experience. Unfeatures: everything tavern hates. Playable on {cpo}. 18:42:57 we don't go through any effort to prevent duplicates showing up as e.g. vault or floor loot, though. 18:42:58 Should we? 18:43:46 what about book acquirement? 18:43:59 duplicate books can't be identified at a glance (tiles) without reading the message log or xving it 18:44:12 i.e. would it be good or bad if you removed book duplication for acquirement 18:44:14 with duplicate gear you at least know what the gear is 18:44:46 also, I'd love it if we could use different tiles for artefact books than for regular books 18:45:08 PleasingFungus: I think it'd be wort it. The excess items are annoying, imo. 18:45:28 dpeg: I played a bunch of Sil back in 2012-13 and I think it does a lot of things very well, but it certainly has its flaws 18:45:32 it seems like it'd be very hard to avoid 'loot inflation'. 18:45:42 especially in postgame. 18:45:47 elliptic: do you know if it is active development? 18:46:00 PleasingFungus: agreed, it's not a major goal or anything 18:46:05 the excess items don't annoy me at all, and honestly i haven't heard of anyone else who's really annoyed by them, though i can believe that someone might be. 18:46:21 gotta admit I am a stasher 18:46:27 ASCIIPhilia (L1 TrCK) (D:1) 18:46:29 I really only stopped playing it because it is a relatively small game compared with something like crawl and thus has less replay value 18:47:13 !crashlog asciiphilia 18:47:14 19. ASCIIPhilia, XL1 TrCK, T:2 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ASCIIPhilia/crash-ASCIIPhilia-20161205-234626.txt 18:47:25 elliptic: well, I'm sure you've mentioned everything we could borrow from Sil :) 18:47:56 dpeg: it is certainly not in very active development, I think a few years back the main dev became more busy with real life 18:48:38 I guess it did have a release in january 18:49:07 ah, the pity of single developers... so glad we're not very prone to this problem 18:50:47 Brannock: odd crash... 18:51:00 as far as I can tell nothing happened, but I'm not good at reading crash logs 18:51:05 might be a connection thing? 18:51:14 no 18:51:25 they crashed when player_mutation_level() was called 18:52:03 i think specifically when looking for that one ru mut that affects skill apts, maybe 18:52:04 ASCIIPhilia (L1 TrCK) (D:1) 18:52:08 oh I see now 18:52:39 !source species_apt 18:52:39 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc#L1510 18:52:53 !source player_mutation_level 18:52:54 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#L2095 18:53:16 dpeg: the main things I really like about Sil design are (a) no teleport effects exist at all (and digging is very limited, and a lot of the monsters/AI are designed with this in mind), and (b) the xp gain system - lots of xp from discovering new items or for encountering new monsters, and xp for killing monsters goes down sharply as you kill more of each monster type 18:53:20 i think line 2083 is probably where the crash was 18:53:25 ASCIIPhilia (L1 TrCK) (D:1) 18:53:35 !source player.h 18:53:35 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.h 18:53:37 but yeah those would both be pretty hard to import to crawl 18:53:41 -!- irctc396 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:48 !source enum.h 18:53:48 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/enum.h 18:54:35 elliptic: I always thought that blinking is much better than teleportation (but interface and design)... it's already good that cTele is gone 18:55:03 -!- Rotatell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:23 would it really be hard to remove wands of diggint and disintegration :P 18:55:26 I like the xp changes (thought about xp for spotting new monsters rather than killing them when thinking about thief god Ratri), but I am not sure how much this will actually matter 18:55:57 -!- Rotatell has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:59 chequers: beware the vault cost 18:56:04 and the formicid cost! 18:56:16 PleasingFungus: Fo could happily dig ever after, I'd think 18:56:21 !lm ASCIIPhilia x=gid 18:56:21 5556. [2016-12-05 23:56:04] [game_key=ASCIIPhilia:cwz:20161105235603S] ASCIIPhilia the Ruffian (L1 TrCK of Xom) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 18:56:22 Fo digging could easily be removed 18:56:31 !lm ASCIIPhilia x=vlong 18:56:32 5556. [2016-12-05 23:56:04] [vlong=0.20-a0-2-g2b0e13a] ASCIIPhilia the Ruffian (L1 TrCK of Xom) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 18:56:38 oh, that is promising 18:56:44 save compat mutation bug 18:57:11 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:42 it would be a large nerf but I don't think there is any really compelling design reason why Fo needs it 18:58:08 -!- bairyn is now known as ByronJohnson 18:58:43 removing wands of digging/disint would be good too but would require a lot of vaults to be changed/removed so that people don't go dragging DTEEs around to dig loot out of vaults for them 18:58:44 !tell hellmonk looks like it works! you may want to take a character out for a spin to be sure it's working like you think it should 18:58:45 johnstein: OK, I'll let hellmonk know. 18:59:21 I don't mind digging, but I think it should be a very limited tool. 18:59:26 (I don't like those vaults even with digging being plentiful so this all sounds like positives to me, but it would be a lot of work) 18:59:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 19:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:14 one of my favorite things is digging during the orb run 19:00:26 would you also remove LRD digging? 19:00:29 maybe the orb should just grant you a handful of digging charges? 19:00:31 iood digging, shatter digging? 19:00:47 "You aim the orb at the rock wall. The wall shatters into a million pieces!" 19:01:08 to be clear, iood digging already exists 19:01:11 PleasingFungus: I don't think those would all need to be removed if there weren't any vaults requiring digging to get loot 19:01:27 yeah seems to work to me 19:01:27 hellmonk: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:01:50 though I wouldn't mind IOOD and LRD digging going away 19:02:06 since I don't think they add a huge amount to those spells 19:02:10 if theres a bug it's probably of the "I broke a vault somewhere" or "I messed up some edge case thing that nobody will find for a week" variety 19:02:52 I noticed the version tag was 0.19-a0-1893 19:03:03 PleasingFungus: not all digging 19:03:09 -!- Zekka_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:03:25 PleasingFungus: i wonder if anyone ever made a killhole with ood 19:03:31 paging minmay 19:03:41 lol 19:04:09 PleasingFungus: like, the problem would be if we removed wands of digging/disint and then we had players taking off their plate armour to learn LRD to open vaults for free loot... which I've done enough of already to know that it is a bad thing 19:04:52 damn the HOPs 19:05:35 chequers: I think I've actually done that maybe? I've certainly memorized IOOD for the sole purpose of digging a couple times (on chars that didn't find the wands) 19:05:40 we removed HOPr already, actually 19:05:48 is digging during the orb run something that matters enough to discuss related to removing/changing digging? or am I giving it too much weight on importance? 19:05:56 elliptic: OOD?! man, I can imagine learning lrd 19:06:08 johnstein: usually, the *complaint* is about digging and the orb run 19:06:14 (specifically, digging out paths beforehand) 19:06:14 really? 19:06:17 chequers: I mean, this was on conjure-y chars who could already cast it fine 19:06:19 that seemed like a reasonable use 19:06:29 people consider it 'tedious' :) 19:06:32 man I'm consistently missing the boat on a lot of this stuff 19:06:33 oh 19:06:38 I wasn't training up conjurations to 14 just for digging :P 19:06:38 I thought it was interesting 19:06:42 well 19:06:42 I agree that dig-only vaults are lame (and I probably added some of them). I think that digging sometimes has nice tactical possibilities, and I'd like to keep it in more limited form for that. 19:06:46 you do it *during* the orb run 19:06:48 which is more interesting 19:06:53 oooooooooooh 19:07:08 so I just need to submit my ORBBLASTER PR 19:07:17 :P 19:07:24 I think pre-digging paths for the orbrun is generally a bad idea if you have a wand of digging 19:07:24 Orb Drilling Inc. 19:07:36 each use of the orb to dig through walls costs you some HP or extra contam? 19:08:01 doing it on the orbrun is better, since then there is less time for monsters to spawn inside the paths you dig, wander into them, etc 19:08:22 it's hilarious at how little I think about max/minning 19:08:25 but doing it with LRD or IOOD is not great yes 19:08:30 johnstein: this is very complex for dubious gain and i don't think it's getting implemented 19:08:48 it was about 45% joke 19:08:57 elliptic: i think part of the idea is that you'd be able to GD0 if you dug the paths out beforehand 19:09:01 but before doing /dig /disint, I think the top-tier wands are more important targets 19:09:13 ???? 19:09:22 remove! 19:09:36 I'm not a great player. sounds like Good Players don't worry so much about the things I worry about. using digging on orb run always seems to be a net positive on my game experience and never really feels tedious. 19:09:37 PleasingFungus: uh, so the idea is that if you do something more tedious beforehand then you can make orbrun slightly less tedious? 19:09:44 :P 19:09:52 johnstein: it isn't tedious, I do it too 19:09:54 the tedious part of the orb run is checking each staircase to know which one is optimal 19:09:56 the game is gonna be able to path better than a human can, in principle 19:10:06 johnstein: the tedious thing would be mapping it all out ahead of time 19:10:15 but I stopped doing it since it took a long time and I would usually get blocked anyway 19:10:20 PleasingFungus: but the game isn't deciding where to dig 19:10:24 and it was tedious 19:10:42 PleasingFungus: I seriously think that neither hasting/healing/teleporting makes for a good wand 19:10:51 ah, was thinking of the damage wands for some reason 19:11:24 would be happy to kick those out for 0.20... targeting /dig /disint afterwards sounds very good to me 19:11:40 advantage of removing top-tier wands: merge wand acq with misc acq 19:11:46 +1 19:12:59 i should clarify that i'm enthused by exactly none of these proposals 19:13:11 power gamer! 19:13:19 nothing about them excites me or makes me feel like they'd be fun. but i'm not standing in anyone's way 19:13:19 I am fine with removing hasting/heal wounds/teleportation wands if a couple compensating changes are made (increase frequency of generation of corresponding potions/scrolls a bit, change DD to have a heal wounds ability that costs a fraction of an MP instead of wand recharging) 19:13:33 but at the same time I think wands would be pretty sad without them 19:13:37 there was one dd healing proposal that i thought was independently good 19:13:49 i forget which it was... 19:13:53 wrt replacing wands 19:13:54 elliptic: yes, sure. The scrolls/potions are fine and could be increased a bit. 19:14:02 it always seemed odd that evo didn't affect those 3 wands 19:14:21 technically, i think you'll find that evo did affect hw in very specific circumstances 19:14:22 I spent several early games annoyed that my highly trained evo didn't increase my HP gain 19:14:28 oh 19:14:38 someone told me it didn't help at all. hah 19:14:40 johnstein: yeah, digging and disint too (unless using disint on a monster) - maybe a sign that they should be scrolls/potions 19:14:41 well 19:14:42 elliptic: re: wands: our misc. subsystem has changed so much over the years... by now, wands look like an after thought 19:14:43 it didn't 19:14:44 scroll of digging 19:14:49 elliptic, yea, those two too 19:14:57 potion of digging 19:14:59 elliptic: targeted scrolls!??? 19:15:04 monstrous... 19:15:16 PleasingFungus: evo helped healing when using wands on enemies to pacify them while worshipping Elyvilon 19:15:18 why not make it a misc evocable instead? 'stone of tremors', perhaps 19:15:20 PleasingFungus: ?blink? 19:15:21 elliptic: yes! 19:15:24 dpeg: :P 19:15:36 from that perspecting, hw/haste/tele/dig/distint are all nicely related (not affected by evo) 19:15:48 PleasingFungus: well, misc evocables all use evo skill I think? 19:15:52 using disint on monsters is perfectly reasonable, early on 19:15:55 yes 19:16:29 but ofc you aren't gonna have much power regardless early on :) 19:16:43 disint would be a perfectly reasonable wand if it didn't affect walls and scaled better with power 19:16:58 make disint irresistable and top tier/rare like current hw/haste/tele 19:17:12 come the fuck at me 19:17:36 lol 19:17:43 you could rename it 19:17:47 wand of death 19:17:51 * dpeg looks up "come the fuck at me" 19:17:57 dpeg: "come at me" is what you want 19:18:30 urban dictionary has a reasonable entry, weirdly! 19:18:52 yes, just found it 19:19:49 Didn't we even talk about removing /hasting alongside the spell? 19:20:23 you did 19:20:42 there's probably even a commit in a branch somewhere 19:20:52 * dpeg should stop doing soliloquies 19:22:02 remove all wands :) 19:22:21 the damage wands are alright 19:23:30 wands in general are fine for early-midgame, they just feel weird later on (once you have a rune, say) 19:24:30 since you've found tons of them and they are mostly not very useful any more, aside from the few that don't use evocations (and those are really good, especially with having found a bunch of ?recharging by then) 19:25:04 sooo, does it make sense to add hellcrawl logs/milestones to sequell? or is that a question for green.snark? 19:26:15 i would say no 19:26:25 but that's just a vague feeling 19:27:02 elliptic: absolutely agreed 19:27:21 I always wondered about the wisdom behind ?recharging... that might be another item better left out 19:27:25 the top-tier damage wands can be situationally useful 19:29:55 what if we boosted all wand charges and removed ?recharge 19:30:08 Brannock: no charge boost needed imo 19:30:11 here: a wand of flame (255/256) 19:30:19 but also, ya 19:30:26 it'll still only be useful twice 19:30:27 Brannock: the numbers are plenty since the last boost 19:30:36 :^) 19:30:52 hellmonk: imagine the sheer power of the artificer.... 19:30:59 I guess we'd lose the upgrading for rods 19:31:17 you'd just start them with 15/256, not sure how that's related to your proposal 19:31:20 can we just lose rods 19:31:26 Brannock: I am not very familiar with that... could be re-purpose ?EW for this? 19:31:41 elliptic: serious suggestion? 19:31:47 tbh remove all wands and rework rods to be evocable from inventory thankyou in advance 19:32:17 dpeg: serious, I've suggested it before! 19:32:22 I don't understand the "thankyou in advance" 19:32:35 dpeg: ignore everything that hellmonk says, imo 19:32:37 <_< 19:32:39 lol 19:32:40 he's being facetious 19:32:52 hm, perhaps do I have to learn how to ignore in irssi 19:32:57 my suggestion is in earnest even though my tone suggests otherwise 19:33:01 elliptic: I always felt uneasy about evocables & power creep... didn't know about your stance on this 19:33:01 rods being evocable from inventory has been seriously suggested before 19:33:11 by me 19:33:31 and might be an interface improvement, but rod interface is going to be bad anyway I think with the "rest to recharge" thing 19:33:33 the fraction of a turn to swap rods is generally not important and is super duper annoying, esp when you have more than one 19:33:49 i like the interaction with cursed/distort/etc weapons 19:33:50 PleasingFungus: by me too! 19:33:55 elliptic: :) 19:34:36 elliptic: I think that damage wands add enough to the game (decisions I mean here, not just power) to make them worth keeping. Do you agree? 19:34:49 dpeg: it isn't about power creep for me really (though some of the new misc evocables have had this problem in the past) 19:35:27 dpeg: I do like wands in early game (D/Lair), so probably yes 19:35:45 I just wish they were less awkward (in various ways) later on 19:36:01 i think rods are really neat 19:36:01 rods though I don't think add much to the game 19:36:05 I like rods 19:36:05 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:36:12 I don't like their interface 19:36:12 they're fun to play with and have cool unique effects 19:36:16 ya 19:36:22 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:01 elliptic: so do you object to rods for interface or for narrow design (overlap with ranged combat and spells), or something else? 19:37:02 PleasingFungus: they are certainly more unique than they used to be, but I feel like their effects could be moved to other places in the game 19:37:36 dpeg: mainly interface, but also I think we don't need so many different types of ranged attacks 19:37:44 yes, I agree 19:37:52 spells, wands, launchers, rods, misc. evocables 19:37:52 personally, i'd remove all ranged weapons before i removed rods 19:38:08 since they're dramatically less interesting 19:38:08 !seen lasty 19:38:08 I last saw Lasty at Mon Dec 5 20:43:42 2016 UTC (3h 54m 25s ago) joining the channel. 19:38:12 :) 19:38:14 I also agree with PF 19:38:15 launchers have their own issues certainly yes 19:38:17 dpeg: hey there 19:38:24 he's not going to remove ranged weapons, so i have no use for him here! 19:38:28 Lasty: we need your ranged reform! =) 19:38:33 dpeg: I know! 19:38:43 and I need help, because I'm short on time. :) 19:38:46 but I think rod effects that we like could be moved to wands or misc. evocables and they would still be cool but have better interface 19:38:57 PF's getting itchy all over!! 19:39:00 elliptic: yes 19:39:15 how would you do lightning rods as a wand? 19:39:17 I wonder if we could agree on some wands/miscs. plan, so we actually get something out of this hour 19:39:18 *rod 19:39:26 actually I'd be cool with rod removal if their effects were moved to wands, that sounds legit 19:39:52 I don't think that could work without flattening their power curve, eg for clouds or shadows 19:39:52 i guess you could just have it evoke repeatedly as at present, but with permanently limited charges... 19:40:09 PleasingFungus: yes, very few charges will do the trick, I am sure 19:40:09 yeah, one of the neat things about rods is that they're one of the few evocable types that really scale well with evo skill 19:40:12 PleasingFungus: that one might be better as a misc evocable or a spell (we already have that sort of thing as a spell even) 19:40:30 well yeah, you'd change some numbers but in principle I think wand of clouds/wand of shadows are cool and make sense 19:40:38 What if we split Evocations? 19:40:44 and iron/inacc if you really want but I find those kinda dull 19:40:51 Part of the problem is Evocations, as a skill, covers too much stuff 19:40:53 Brannock: no no no no. No! :) 19:41:04 hellmonk: wand of clouds is something I have suggested before yes 19:41:05 i don't understand how splitting it would help here 19:41:10 that'd be creeping creepses 19:41:44 Having one single skill cover such a huge range of evokables means that if one is too good, then everything else also becomes that much more attractive/usable of a choice. It's self-compounding 19:41:47 I am really not familiar with rods. Which do you think could be move to wands without much harm? 19:41:53 We don't have one single skill, Arcane Knowledge 19:42:33 my argument is that very few items really tempt you to invest heavily in evo right now 19:42:41 splitting evo skill would only make that worse 19:42:52 isn't that because the dev team took specific steps to nerf evocables, though? 19:42:57 yes? 19:42:57 Psh, everyone wants to put at least 5 to 15 points in evo every game :O 19:43:05 PleasingFungus: we could make wands scale better with evo skill, btw 19:43:07 Hex wands op 19:43:08 Dracunos: imo that was true in like, 0.14 19:43:08 ??wand power 19:43:09 wand power[1/1]: 15 + 2.5 * Evocations 19:43:18 elliptic: i wouldn't mind that! 19:43:19 Haha, wow ^ 19:43:19 just tweaking that formula up wouldn't be too crazy I think 19:43:27 82.5 power at max Evoc 19:43:29 I think you still want 5-6 early on most characters most of the time 19:43:30 that seems low 19:43:54 like you can argue that it's no longer always optimal but it's pretty rare for me to not have 6 points evo by the end of lair 19:44:07 I do a similar thing when I play 19:44:13 hellmonk: sure, it's cheap to pick up cheap skills. i'll usually also pick up some cheap stealth, always some cheap fighting 19:44:22 especially because sack of spiders, phial of floods, fan of gales are so tactically helpful 19:44:25 theres usually very little incentive to train a lot though, I agree 19:44:44 given crawl's skill system, it's pretty much always optimal to drop a few points into everything remotely useful 19:44:50 So rods were nerfed? 19:44:52 I'll go 15+ evo if I find a rod of clouds sometimes though 19:44:53 no 19:44:54 Not sneak :O 19:44:54 i don't think that's a problem that needs to be solved 19:45:03 Even though it is remotely useful 19:45:14 Rods haven't been touched, Dracunos 19:45:22 In fact I'm not sure how we got onto this topic 19:45:22 stealth skill has hidden benefits beyond the actual stealth attribute 19:45:23 yeah, I'm not saying it's a problem to want 6 evo every game 19:45:32 -!- asdu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:45:33 well, benefit (and some people think it's a disadvantage...) 19:45:33 just like, I think you still want 6 evo every game 19:45:40 Yeah, five :p 19:46:00 And then hex wands scale pretty decently, which is good for a lot of really nasty little guys with the rare low mr 19:46:10 low for that level, at least 19:46:17 PleasingFungus: yeah, I think raising stealth can actually be a bad thing in some ways because it makes monster behavior less predictable 19:46:18 I think there are comparatively a lot more games where you don't take stealth since it's basically useless to train it in plate 19:46:36 Just like dodging? 19:46:52 dodging in plate is fine with reasonable dex 19:47:28 historically dodging in dex was useless until high investment 19:47:39 in ancient times (tm) 19:47:47 dodging in dex useless without high plate 19:47:53 I don't play games w/ victory dancing tbh 19:48:04 since we seem to stray off wands... would you mind me trying to make a proposal out of the wands/rods stuff from today? 19:48:15 dodging in plate used to give no benefit until 10-12 skill or so, but then give large benefits after that 19:48:30 I wouldn't mind 19:48:38 No threshholds kinda works well for crawl.. 19:49:16 But it does seem to give some interesting elements, like the RoC has that 15 evo threshhold 19:49:16 I'd be fine with plate giving percentile penalties to stealth instead of flat nuking it 19:49:16 But I dunno if that fits crawl 19:49:36 roc? 19:49:44 rod of clowns 19:49:44 rod of fungi 19:49:47 oh 19:49:48 ty 19:51:28 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 19:52:14 On another note, anyone feel inclined to help out w/ ranged reform? <.< >.> 19:54:25 Lasty: how far are you? 19:54:45 god damnit. it's really hard to give milestones a unique ID 19:54:56 did you know, some players have killed natasha twice in the same turn? 19:55:29 -!- johlstei__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:50 nice 19:55:57 how'd they accomplish that? 19:56:04 beam wands, axes... what else 19:56:09 freed slaves, maybe 19:56:13 not sure 19:56:33 dpeg: I've added always-mulch, removed blowguns and all but three needle types, separated those into their own classes of item. I've also made a patch to goldify ammo but didn't push it because it breaks quiver.cc and I haven't successfully rewritten that yet 19:56:55 !lm * uniq=natasha s=gid,turn ?:N>1 19:57:15 quiver.cc is my main obstacle right now. After that I need to set launchers to wield in their own slot, then fix the ten thousand bugs I will probably introduce by doing that. 19:57:20 here's one example 19:57:22 v=0.16-a0:vlong=0.16-a0-3003-ga5c7ff4:lv=0.1:tiles=1:name=UristPineapples:race=Gargoyle:cls=Fighter:char=GrFi:xl=8:sk=Shields:sklev=8:title=Blocker:place=D::6:br=D:lvl=6:absdepth=6:hp=49:mhp=49:mmhp=49:mp=8:mmp=8:bmmp=8:str=21:int=8:dex=11:ac=13:ev=8:sh=11:god=Jiyva:start=20141107164059S:dur=1097:turn=5632:aut=58838:kills=171:gold=332:goldfound=332:goldspent=0:scrollsused=14:potionsused=4:time=2014110 19:57:26 And then I need to try to actually balance ammo rates and damages. 19:57:26 Lasty: do you have the plan lait out somewhere? dev-wiki or tavern? 19:57:29 7165917S:type=uniq:milestone=killed Natasha. 19:57:34 dpeg: not in detail 19:57:40 12 milestones for * (uniq=natasha): 6x Aki:lld:20140502221908S (2x 1030, 2x 1081, 2x 1189), 6x ikenuma:lld:20140801093253S (2x 2798, 2x 2866, 2x 3419) 19:57:52 dpeg: oh, and I mulched all ammo monsters would drop 19:58:04 looks like more than half-way done, to me 19:58:22 More or less, tho it's the half with all the low-hanging fruit 19:58:35 launchers in own slot would be so convenient... 19:58:35 I think you could make the case that it's more like 20% done 19:58:43 !lm * gid=Aki:lld:20140502221908S start 19:58:43 No keyword 'start' 19:58:46 !lm * gid=Aki:lld:20140502221908S begin 19:58:47 2. [2014-06-02 22:19:08] Aki the Vandal (L1 HaHu) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 19:58:49 !lm * gid=Aki:lld:20140502221908S begin -2 19:58:50 1/2. [2014-06-02 22:19:08] Aki the Vandal (L1 HaHu) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 19:58:59 those games are just doubled I guess 19:59:04 hmmm, good find 19:59:21 chequers: are you sure? these sequell queries aren't finding the milestone you just partially listed 19:59:45 !lm uristpineapples grfi turn=5632 19:59:45 1. [2014-12-07 16:59:17] UristPineapples the Blocker (L8 GrFi of Jiyva) killed Natasha on turn 5632. (D:6) 19:59:51 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:59:53 let me search again 20:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:51 !lm stultus turn=3563 20:00:52 2. [2016-09-04 10:09:08] stultus the Firebug (L6 GrFE) killed Natasha on turn 3563. (D:3) 20:00:55 !lm stultus turn=3563 -2 20:00:56 1/2. [2016-06-23 19:35:36] stultus the Digger (L7 GrEE) killed Natasha on turn 3563. (D:4) 20:00:59 my guess is that natasha doesn't actually respawn until the next turn (or the end of the current turn or whatever) so that this isn't possible, but I don't actually know 20:01:03 chequers: different games 20:01:07 hah 20:01:21 or at least I assume so since they are on different levels 20:01:39 (and different time) 20:01:40 and same turn 20:02:06 I think there are some ways of getting duplicate milestones on the same turn, I forget how though 20:02:49 you can easily get two different milestones on the same turn 20:03:01 sure 20:03:25 i'm checking the raw milestone file for stultus above 20:04:11 !lm stultus turn=3563 x=start 20:04:12 2. [2016-09-04 10:09:08] [start=2016-09-04 09:37:02 [20160804093702S]] stultus the Firebug (L6 GrFE) killed Natasha on turn 3563. (D:3) 20:04:12 !lm stultus turn=3563 x=start -2 20:04:13 1/2. [2016-06-23 19:35:36] [start=2016-06-23 19:12:49 [20160523191249S]] stultus the Digger (L7 GrEE) killed Natasha on turn 3563. (D:4) 20:04:24 oh, different chars even 20:04:27 GrFE and GrEE 20:04:44 so definitely different :P 20:05:11 -!- SteelNeuron has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:03 kill natasha, she pops up in a vault flame cloud and dies? 20:06:34 PleasingFungus: yeah that was my best idea, it looks like it hasn't happened online though and I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't actually die until the next turn 20:06:43 heh 20:07:10 yeah, these all seem like red herrings... now I need to figure out why my detection script is tripping on them if they're fake 20:12:06 oh, hm 20:12:49 !lm * gid=radek:cxc:20150914153529S uniq=natasha 1 20:12:50 1/2. [2015-10-14 15:59:51] radek the Infuser (L7 DECj) killed Natasha on turn 4062. (D:4) 20:12:51 !lm * gid=radek:cxc:20150914153529S uniq=natasha 2 20:12:51 2. [2015-10-14 15:59:52] radek the Infuser (L7 DECj) killed Natasha on turn 4063. (D:4) 20:12:55 consecutive turns 20:13:26 !lm * gid=radek:cxc:20150914153529S uniq=natasha 2 -tv 20:13:27 2. radek, XL7 DECj, T:4063 (milestone) requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 20:13:34 it appears there might be a bug with natasha's milestone generation specifically 20:13:40 i wonder if sequell can show it 20:14:08 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S 20:14:09 36. [2016-05-09 10:54:53] golgol the Carver (L16 HOFi of Beogh) entered the Depths on turn 25889. (D:15) 20:14:30 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S turn=3902 x=time 20:14:31 1. [2016-05-04 13:52:35] [time=2016-05-04 13:52:35 [20160404135235S]] golgol the Skirmisher (L7 HOFi of Beogh) killed Natasha on turn 3902. (D:4) 20:14:39 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S turn=3580 x=time 20:14:40 No milestones for * (gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S turn=3580). 20:15:09 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S turn=3887 x=time 20:15:10 1. [2016-05-04 13:52:35] [time=2016-05-04 13:52:35 [20160404135235S]] golgol the Skirmisher (L7 HOFi of Beogh) killed Natasha on turn 3887. (D:4) 20:15:50 chequers: what is the bug? 20:16:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:42 PleasingFungus: my guess is that natasha respawned in a vehumet altar flame cloud in the game ^ 20:18:03 there! the time field is kept the same for some natasha kills 20:18:03 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S noun=Natasha 20:18:03 !lm * gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S noun=Natasha s=turn,time 20:18:04 3. [2016-05-04 13:52:35] golgol the Skirmisher (L7 HOFi of Beogh) killed Natasha on turn 3887. (D:4) 20:18:05 3 milestones for * (gid=golgol:cue:20160404131420S noun=Natasha): 3853 (2016-05-04 13:52:23), 3887 (2016-05-04 13:52:35), 3902 (2016-05-04 13:52:35) 20:18:25 chequers: how is that a bug? Natasha could easily have died twice within a second 20:19:00 across 300 turns? 20:19:12 3902-3887 = 15 20:19:19 the other one was 12 seconds earlier 20:19:35 !log golgol 20:19:36 87. golgol, XL5 HOFi, T:1937: http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/golgol/morgue-golgol-20160512-142300.txt 20:19:47 hm, yeah 20:19:47 how do we verify if an user is a bot? 20:19:52 (golgol isn't, to be clear) 20:20:01 but I think there were checks for bots in the tournament code 20:20:01 plausibly natasha was killed by orc allies out of sight while the player was autoexploring even 20:20:12 well i guess regardless if they are or not, some people do play fast 20:20:12 Brannock: mk. 1 eyeball, afaik 20:20:30 Brannock: we can't really unless we look at rcfile or see suspicious notes or something 20:20:48 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 20:20:55 the tournament code has one place where it blacklists qw by name so that qw won't appear on lists of fastest wins 20:21:19 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:21:33 scoreboard has one bot that was identified by watching the tv, but otherwise yeah, we just rely on the name/rcfile/morgue notes 20:21:45 (someone took qw and removed all the messages, iirc) 20:26:02 it would probably be pretty hard for us to notice a qw clone with a larger delay (so it was playing at a vaguely human speed) and no messages/notes 20:27:01 I guess there would still be some tells in the ttyrec (like using ctrl-F to search for corpses), but not too many 20:27:37 could even randomize the delay, make it take breaks of a few minutes periodically, etc 20:29:43 people using bots to do things other than realtime wins would be hard to detect 20:30:52 i think there are a few tells for qw though. Its ability usage is pretty static and the movement is quite predictable 20:33:33 which rods do you think could be wand-ified without problems? 20:33:53 I have clouds and shadows on my list, but I'm sure others would work too. 20:35:42 lightning was suggested 20:35:50 ignition, clouds, inaccuracy, iron would probably all work fine as wands? shadows might be a bit weird since I don't think it is targetted? lightning is the most complicated 20:35:55 PleasingFungus: it was? 20:36:17 i brought it up earlier, since it's one of the more fun rod effects to use, and i didn't want to lose it :) 20:36:19 I said that lightning might be better as a misc. evocable or a spell 20:36:25 ah, true! 20:36:40 right, I agree with you that it is one of the cooler ones 20:36:57 elliptic: so shadows might be better off as a scroll? There is a similar spell, though, isn't there? 20:37:13 there's a similar scroll... 20:37:28 summoning, eh? 20:37:29 it is already a scroll and a spell, though they aren't exactly the same because of how the power-dependence works 20:37:38 I think 20:37:45 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:38:02 well, moving a rod-effect to a consumable (not a wand) loses the Evoc dependency which everyone seems to like 20:38:06 -!- nat has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:36 make scrolls scale with evo skill :) 20:39:49 phew :) 20:39:58 rod of shadows i think would be good to remove regardless of whether rod->wand changes happen, since yeah it's already a pretty well-covered effect 20:40:00 okay, I think have a digest of everything... hopefully it's not in vain 20:40:06 thanks for input! 20:40:22 this does sound like it'd make for a pretty big glut of direct damage wands 20:40:34 although i like the idea generally 20:40:53 MarvinPA: yes, but sorting that out would be a good second step, and we already have that issue, only less glaring :) 20:40:55 MarvinPA: they might be better than the current ones at least 20:41:43 also we did just remove a couple direct damage wands? or at least removed two and added one or some such thing 20:42:28 removed three and added one I guess 20:42:33 elliptic: yes, /cold --> /iceblast, /fire and /lightning gone, /acid added, I think 20:42:41 no one remembers frost... 20:42:43 or magic dart 20:42:50 oh my :O 20:42:58 I think /lightning is still around, but fireball is gone too? 20:43:01 yes 20:43:10 also yes I didn't even realize magic dart was gone! 20:44:02 i guess these new ones could also stand to be fairly rare 20:44:03 so it was mdart/frost/fire/fireball -> acid, cold -> iceblast 20:44:17 so net -3 which is good 20:45:14 oh 20:45:30 i think also one more 20:45:32 double checking 20:45:49 yes, draining 20:45:59 oh right 20:46:08 %git 6f661db7440e4ae78df8f093bdbdf8b46d2d12eb 20:46:08 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.18-a0-1194-g6f661db: Remove various wands 10(10 months ago, 35 files, 137+ 212-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6f661db7440e 20:46:12 %git 77aac2f2795b95fad100266cf4aac3e15a38333e 20:46:12 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.18-a0-1209-g77aac2f: Wands: draining -> acid, fireball -> iceblast 10(10 months ago, 32 files, 91+ 84-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/77aac2f2795b 20:46:17 god, time flies 20:46:40 iron and clouds would be the two i'd pick out as being especially worth keeping as rare wands maybe, not so sure on the merits of ignition/inacc 20:47:30 I'm still a fan of the idea of replacing /digging and /disint with a /devastation, a low-charge ultra-rare wand that does lots of damage and destroys a wide swathe of terrain 20:47:52 ignition is kinda cool at least, inacc is just sort of boringly strong on a particular bunch of things 20:48:01 true 20:48:13 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:20 EXCITINGLY strong 20:48:30 why is iron more interesting than inacc? 20:48:35 they're in basically the same category, to me 20:48:38 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:50 yeah I was considering suggesting just removing inacc but I thought the TSO players would come after me 20:48:55 lol 20:49:12 PleasingFungus: inacc is sort of more spoily because it is much more extreme in its inaccuracy 20:49:28 iron seems like it has more interesting restrictions in that it still needs close range, can't just pierce through a million things 20:49:28 the fedhas players would come after you too, but they can't move while you're in los 20:49:29 spoily? 20:49:30 PleasingFungus: the targeter is more unique, and the close range restruction to 20:49:31 like it actually helps to know the mechanics and to know which monsters have 4 EV and which have 8 20:49:31 too 20:49:38 ahh, right 20:49:41 ev pips............. 20:49:50 in rod form iron also works better since it's l6 and inacc is l3 which makes inacc even more extreme on the things it does work on 20:49:53 or even 2 EV vs 4 EV is a huge different in inacc accuracy iirc 20:50:07 hellmonk: <3 20:50:07 and then halo interacts with it in a really weird and powerful way 20:50:20 hm, I am sitting on a finished c-r-d mail about rods/wands and you pour new content into it :) 20:50:30 dpeg: very rude! 20:50:42 by whom? 20:50:49 -!- nefhilion_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:50:53 probably hellmonk 20:51:08 a safe bet 20:51:47 lol 20:52:19 anyway, 3am over here, sent 20:52:22 if we removed rods, we could maybe just have a misc evocable named "lightning rod" with an xp timer 20:52:48 box of lightnings 20:52:50 though it might be okay as a wand if the interface/charge usage is worked out 20:53:23 I'd sort of rather keep wands simple though 20:53:50 as an air spell it could maybe replace airstrike 20:53:51 elliptic: I mentioned your lightning rod --> misc item, but stopped at that 20:54:15 since they are both guaranteed-hit and we've talked about removing airstrike before 20:54:43 dpeg: go to bed!!! 20:54:43 (okay, not technically guaranteed-hit for lightning rod I think, but nearly?) 20:55:45 PleasingFungus: not before having triggered another removal!1! 20:55:52 bed. 20:57:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: rodless dreams everyone] 20:57:21 -!- SteelNeuron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:25 -!- sneakyness has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:13 hm, i think lightning rod is autohit 20:59:18 it is 21:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:13 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:06 -!- sneakyness has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:49 -!- sneakynesss has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:15 -!- sneakynessss has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:37 -!- sneakynesss has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:39 -!- haltingproblem has quit [Quit: haltingproblem] 21:08:32 -!- sneakyness has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:11:15 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:58 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.20-a0-267-g4a7ec2a: Adjust skill checks for staff acquirement 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4a7ec2af8000 21:28:43 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:42:07 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.0.2/20161129173726]] 21:55:39 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:16 I heard there was going to be removals 21:59:46 !remove gammafunk 21:59:47 03geekosaur ⛐ 0.20-a0-2011-ge2a5f50: Remove gammafunk 10(in the future, 43 files, 231+ 600-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/commit.png?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e2a5f50 21:59:57 ??dinosaur rule 21:59:58 dinosaur rule[1/1]: No dinosaurs. 22:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:09 going to update that to say Remove dinosaurs. 22:00:18 <|amethyst> ??shard shrike 22:00:19 shard shrike[1/2]: Throw-Icicle breathing residents of Cocytus; they're quick (Spd:30), hard hitting and can see invisible. 22:00:34 im going to change wyverns to pterodactyls and theres nothing you can do to stop me ahahahaha 22:00:46 oh saying that birds are dinosaurs is stretching things! 22:01:24 in crawl's canon, birds evolved directly from amphibians 22:02:06 <|amethyst> stretching things less than calling pterosaurs dinosaurs 22:02:58 just further evidence how hellmonk is unqualified to dev 22:03:33 the only evidence you need that Im unqualified to dev is to look at literally any commit 22:03:37 for hellcrawl 22:04:37 hellmonk: sounds perfect. Wanna help w/ ranged reform? 22:04:43 lol 22:09:27 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.20-a0-267-g4a7ec2a (34) 22:15:46 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:19:43 -!- panicbit2 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:23:03 how can I enable autoexplore delay by default in webtiles? 22:24:23 !source IntGameOption 22:24:24 1/2. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/game-options.h#L100 22:24:39 !source IntGameOption 2 22:24:40 2/2. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/game-options.h#L97 22:25:26 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:15 <|amethyst> new IntGameOption(SIMPLE_NAME(travel_delay), USING_DGL ? -1 : 20, -1, 2000); // change that ternary expression to just 20 22:26:41 <|amethyst> there's another one for rest_delay, and you might also want to change show_travel_trail 22:27:24 <|amethyst> or you could just set USING_DGL = false further up, since it's only used for those three options 22:27:32 oh, it's travel delay not explore_delay? 22:28:08 <|amethyst> if explore_delay = -1 (which is the default) it will use the same number as travel_delay 22:28:38 aha 22:29:21 i might try using offline delay by default and see what effect it has on CPU 22:29:38 watching newbies get confused by autoexplore and stop using it is getting frustrating :) 22:30:03 !seen pleasingfungus 22:30:03 I last saw PleasingFungus at Tue Dec 6 02:42:07 2016 UTC (47m 56s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.0.2/20161129173726]'. 22:31:13 this newbie is really confused by capital vs non-capital letters https://crawl.project357.org/watch/DanDerp 22:31:17 and also menus 22:33:41 and diagonal movement 22:36:31 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:37:13 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:00 i want to write a PR that lets me override the delays if you specify a certain build option 22:38:25 so I'll say `#ifdef DGL_TRAVEL_DELAY ` 22:38:25 <|amethyst> hm 22:38:26 how do I do that with C macro? 22:39:21 -!- fazisi has quit [Quit: Your lil lungs is too small to hotbox with god.] 22:39:53 chequers: what do you mean with a C macro 22:40:01 you're using the preprocessor already to do that 22:40:06 <|amethyst> I think it might be less intrusive to change your dat/defaults/misc.txt locally 22:40:07 are you asking how to create this variable? 22:40:11 yeah 22:40:18 s/variable/define/ 22:40:45 gammafunk: I was hoping to do something like change my make line by adding DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY=100 22:41:08 right, that's not going to require a macro per se 22:41:14 that's just using the preprocessor 22:41:19 <|amethyst> ? 22:41:25 <|amethyst> that would be a macro 22:41:30 ...it would? 22:41:52 well, I want to make sure that if this variable is not defined, it still falls back to the old code 22:41:52 <|amethyst> the things you check with #ifdef are preprocessor macros 22:42:22 |amethyst: yes, that's probably the right terminology, but I guess I'm saying he doesn't need a "macro function"?? 22:42:25 s/??/?/ 22:42:53 <|amethyst> yeah, function-like vs object-like macros 22:43:09 yeah and chequers probably didn't even mean the former in the first place, so ignore me 22:43:34 <|amethyst> something like ifdef DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY \n DEFINES_L += -DDGL_DEFAULT_DELAY=$(DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY) \n endif 22:43:34 <|amethyst> in the makefile 22:43:52 <|amethyst> then in the code: 22:43:59 <|amethyst> new IntGameOption(SIMPLE_NAME(travel_delay), USING_DGL ? 22:44:07 <|amethyst> #ifdef DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY 22:44:10 <|amethyst> DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY 22:44:14 <|amethyst> #else 22:44:15 <|amethyst> -1 22:44:18 <|amethyst> #endif 22:44:23 <|amethyst> : 20, -1, 2000), 22:44:47 does kind of seem it'd be simpler to apply a patch to update defaults though 22:45:05 I guess there could be merge conflicts with that approach? 22:45:21 <|amethyst> or could simplify that by (in one of the headers) #ifndef DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY \n #define DGL_DEFAULT_DELAY -1 \n #endif 22:46:51 <|amethyst> yeah, it's kind of weird to have this one option whose default can be configured at build time 22:47:07 <|amethyst> actually 22:47:23 <|amethyst> there's something you can do with no modification at all except to your launch scripts 22:47:43 <|amethyst> crawl -extra-opt-first travel_delay=20 22:48:32 <|amethyst> for something less wordy, my recommendation would be to add an option that says to load some particular file before the user rc 22:48:34 -!- Guest89784 is now known as ChaseSP 22:48:54 <|amethyst> then you can keep all your locally-different option defaults in that file 22:49:10 <|amethyst> like dat/defaults/foo.txt except not part of the distribution 22:49:25 <|amethyst> s/an option/a command-line option/ 22:49:26 hm, perfect 22:49:34 -exta-opt-first, that is 22:49:51 <|amethyst> make sure you spell it right :) 22:50:08 :o 22:51:36 can add it as options in the toml config format 22:51:57 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:53:04 <|amethyst> why toml? 22:53:11 <|amethyst> I was thinking init.txt format 22:53:28 <|amethyst> oh, I see 22:53:30 nice! super easy 22:53:58 yeah, so I added options = [ "-extra-opt-first", "travel_delay=20" ] to the game config in webtiles 22:54:12 <|amethyst> yeah, I misunderstood what "it" was referring to there 22:54:24 <|amethyst> awesome 22:54:33 <|amethyst> you might also consider rest_delay=0 22:54:42 <|amethyst> and possibly show_travel_trail=false 22:55:51 <|amethyst> (AFAIK you need one copy of -extra-opt-first per option) 22:56:12 i sort of like the trail even with a delay, but yeah, good call on rest delay too 22:57:34 <|amethyst> chequers: you might double-check that setting it back to -1 in the user rc works 22:57:56 <|amethyst> chequers: it should, since the "-first" means that the option is set before reading the rc, but just in case 22:58:18 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:20 sure does 22:58:34 thanks for that solution, I didn't even think of it 22:59:14 <|amethyst> took me a while to think of it too 22:59:36 <|amethyst> as you may have noticed by my offering several more complicated solutions first :) 23:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:44 <|amethyst> man, whenever I encounter a shop mimic I feel sad 23:00:50 <|amethyst> not for the usual reasons though 23:01:18 |amethyst: can you think of any reason hosting an experimental branch from a different remote wouldn't Just Work like a normal experimental from the official origin ? 23:01:19 <|amethyst> nostalgic for the humor value of dungeon features chasing you around 23:01:48 obviously I'm thinking of hosting MimiCrawl 23:01:50 <|amethyst> johnstein: hm, maybe something's doing a 'git pull origin'? 23:01:59 where the only enemies are mimics 23:02:13 I did a scan and didn't see anything. but I didn't do. ton of grepping 23:03:58 <|amethyst> johnstein: crawl-build/update-public-repository.sh just does 'git pull' without mentioning 'origin', but it does refer directly to the url when it clones 23:04:13 <|amethyst> that script would be where I started my investigation, anyway 23:07:19 <|amethyst> (it's entirely possible the problem is actually in update-crawl-stable-build.sh though) 23:07:35 so far it's seemed to work 23:08:09 <|amethyst> johnstein: oh, I derived implicatures from your question that weren't actually there :) 23:08:25 heh 23:09:10 I basically convinced myself it was *probably* ok when I saw only "git pull". was just making sure you didn't now about something glaringly obvious that I missed 23:11:01 <|amethyst> I mean, assuming you trust hellmonk not to make evil commits 23:11:26 I was wondering about that too 23:11:29 define "evil" 23:11:41 <|amethyst> johnstein: but you already trust all of use not to make evil commits, so... 23:11:44 commits that do not remove functionality 23:11:56 * johnstein is a sucker 23:11:56 <|amethyst> s/use/us/ 23:12:13 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:39 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:41 actually I read and examine every single crawl and hellcrawl commit 23:12:43 <|amethyst> !commitby hellmonk Add Mirai client support to crawl 23:12:44 03hellmonk ⛐ 0.20-a0-2012-gb7fa9f9: Add Mirai client support to crawl 10(in the future, 11 files, 270+ 692-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/commit.png?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b7fa9f9 23:13:31 and pre test everything on SBRO (secrets.br.o) 23:14:17 <|amethyst> honeypot.berotato.org 23:14:31 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:32 !revert add Mirai client support to crawl 23:14:33 03hellmonk ⛐ 0.20-a0-2013-g44741dc: Revert "add Mirai client support to crawl" 10(in the future, 48 files, 307+ 807-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/commit.png?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=44741dc 23:15:08 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 23:15:53 -!- magistern has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:05 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:25:36 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:31:08 -!- Concrocotta has quit [Quit: Ciao] 23:32:02 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:36:41 1.2k responses for EN, 25 for JP, 100 for KR 23:36:45 but which of those commits is first??? 23:36:53 !lg * ckr month x=cdist(name) 23:36:54 No games for * (ckr month). 23:37:02 !lg * cwz month x=cdist(name) 23:37:03 44984 games for * (cwz month): cdist(name)=841 23:37:18 !lg * !lld !cwz month x=cdist(name) 23:37:20 136895 games for * (!lld !cwz month): cdist(name)=4730 23:37:49 offline numbers are slowly starting to increase 23:37:53 we probably lost a lot of potential responses due to requiring google login 23:38:18 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:38:23 hopefully we can get more from the jp and kr 23:38:35 still fairly early at least 23:38:38 ??Irradiate 23:38:38 irradiate[1/2]: L5 Tm/Cj. Does nontrivial damage to all adjacent enemies and {malmutate}s them, at the cost of significant contam (zero to yellow in 2-4 casts). Contamination from one cast is 1499+1d1500. 23:39:11 chequers: you have your first complaint about the autoexplore delay in ##crawl :( 23:40:17 autoexplore delay? 23:40:17 !lg comborobin ghar -log 23:40:18 4. comborobin, XL27 GhAr, T:77209: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/comborobin/morgue-comborobin-20151001-111340.txt 23:42:06 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:46:16 johnny0: they should complain somewhere i can see 23:47:23 gammafunk: you mean EN or JP/KR responses for google login? 23:47:45 gammafunk: I haven't seen many complaints about google login, so I'm personally skeptical 23:48:22 no posts to the blog at all is surprising 23:49:35 <|amethyst> there was a complaint or two on reddit 23:50:56 <|amethyst> ... which apparently the author deleted after descending into flames 23:51:32 yeah, that was me talking to them 23:51:52 <|amethyst> you are pork_spare_ribs ? 23:51:59 yes 23:52:13 <|amethyst> aha 23:52:23 don't flair me bro! 23:52:25 <|amethyst> I had been wondering why that account said "we" 23:52:30 <|amethyst> re the survey 23:52:51 <|amethyst> Now I'm a dox you on reddit 23:53:07 <|amethyst> "pork_spare_ribs's real name is chequers! bwahaha" 23:53:10 uh oh 23:53:19 rip 23:53:43 (it's not a private link so idm) 23:54:17 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:36 <|amethyst> Mostly joking about "real name" 23:55:13 that reminds me, i was going to ask for my mailmap to be changed back to my real name 23:57:58 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Changing host] 23:59:29 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host]