00:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:16 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-1676-g39ae8cc (34) 00:02:08 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:06:14 -!- espais has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:16 any way to make auto_butcher no stop autoexplore? 00:06:25 hm 00:06:32 probably you can mess with runrest_stop 00:06:42 runrest_stop += something 00:09:05 -!- Zxpr1jk has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:10:11 -!- espais has left ##crawl-dev 00:16:08 -!- protopulse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:17:12 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 49.0/20160916101415]] 00:19:17 needed greedy_pickup_smart in my explore_stop as well 00:19:19 this rules 00:31:07 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 00:38:12 hrm 00:44:09 -!- nixor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:42 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:30 -!- dolemite99 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:05:28 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 01:19:43 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1676-g39ae8cc (34) 01:21:32 -!- jehoesefat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:56 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:26:27 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:01 what up 01:30:26 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:06 just gained 290 gold from acquirement... is it nerfed for gozag? 01:31:17 no 01:31:20 ??gold_acquirement 01:31:21 gold acquirement[1/4]: Gives 10*(20+1d20+1d8*1d8*1d8) gold. (Min=220, Max=5520, Mean=1218, Median=880, Std=911) - http://anydice.com/program/3a67. Gold from acquirement gives less Zin piety than other gold; the relative reduction in piety is bigger the larger the gold pile is. 01:31:26 you just got a nice roll 01:31:31 290is impressive IMO 01:32:01 1d20+1d8*1d8*1d = 9 ... what are the odds 01:33:37 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:00 chance of that or worse is above seems to be a whopping 1.29%! 01:35:22 oh so fairly common 01:35:29 just think of it as miscasting apport at 1% fail, will make you feel better 01:35:34 ive probably acquired gold 50 times by now 01:43:14 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 01:51:30 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51:55 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:55:53 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:57:01 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1676-g39ae8cc 01:59:13 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:20 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:24 -!- destrovel has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:06:07 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:31 -!- DrKe has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:23 -!- DrKe has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:37 is there any crawl lore associated with the name "Dyrovepreva"? 02:14:52 if not, could it plrease be renamed to something pronounceable? 02:16:04 crawl doesn't exactly have a trajectory towards pronouncable names! 02:16:12 well it should 02:16:44 it seems more pronounceable than some others... 02:19:14 it seems very Russian to me 02:19:34 does "pronounceable" mean "US English speakers only"? 02:19:52 Yes 02:20:20 it also seems really random, since its not a name based on any preexisting mythology, that I know of 02:20:35 and its not used anywhere else in crawl 02:20:47 -!- _kvothe has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:21:06 like, if it were the Crown of Hep[unpronouncable], at least it would make sense as being related to the god 02:21:59 as official bikeshed repair man, IMO foreign languages are good. 02:21:59 Brannock: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 02:22:03 !messages 02:22:04 (1/2) roctavian said (2d 6h 9m 7s ago): narrow quills are hard to depict. so is the typical porcupine "haircut" for lack of a better term 02:22:04 !messages 02:22:05 (1/1) PleasingFungus said (2d 4h 11m 9s ago): can you take a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/53bl60/game_crashed_when_i_tried_to_drop_boltsafter/ ? wazuzuz's comments explain how to repro, but i can't get it to work on os x 02:22:13 wow I've been away for a while 02:22:40 !tell roctavian should we rename them 'hedgehog' then? 02:22:41 Brannock: OK, I'll let roctavian know. 02:27:56 !tell pleasingfungus I'll look at this in the morning 02:27:57 Brannock: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 02:30:51 -!- Cimanyd has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:37:43 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:26 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:59 -!- urga has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:39:29 -!- LexAckson__ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:01 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:40:10 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:41:07 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:18 -!- HolyRage has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:42:25 -!- HolyRage_ is now known as HolyRage 02:43:04 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:21 -!- LexAckson__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46:02 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:53:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1676-g39ae8cc 02:58:20 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 02:59:41 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:12 -!- gressup has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:42 -!- Lems has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03:03 -!- hpm_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:56 @??hydra simulacrum 03:04:56 simulacrum (12Z) | Spd: 8 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 32-45 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 1412(cold:13-38) per head | 07undead, evil, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(17), 12cold+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 150 | Sz: Big | Int: brainless. 03:05:13 @??hydra 03:05:20 hydra (09D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 60-83 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 975 | Sz: Big | Int: animal. 03:14:36 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1676-g39ae8cc (34) 03:19:15 -!- vale_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:28 -!- aditya has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:34:14 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:24 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Changing host] 03:34:44 -!- scummos| has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:42:53 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:55:42 -!- bcadren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:43 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:06:34 ??4 04:06:34 4[1/1]: The tier 4 demons. They are: {red devil}, {rust devil}, {ice devil}, {hellwing}, {orange demon}, {chaos spawn}. 04:07:42 ??3 04:07:42 3[1/1]: The tier 3 demons. They are: {sun demon}, {smoke demon}, {soul eater}, {neqoxec}, {ynoxinul}, {sixfirhy}. 04:07:47 ??ynoxinul 04:07:48 ynoxinul[1/1]: Probably the fifth most dangerous of the common demons; casts painful iron shots, and if you try to run away summons ufetubi (which move faster than you and are hard to kill - rapid immobilization) 04:08:01 somebody ruined the joke 04:17:40 it's easy to fix! 04:17:53 @??ynoxinul 04:17:53 ynoxinul (113) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 27-39 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 12 | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 213 | Sp: iron shot (3d16) [06!sil], sum.ufetubus [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 04:18:06 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-1677-ga65e377: Some vaults from Cheibrodos for D, Depths, and Snake (10678) 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 267+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a65e37779a82 04:21:12 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:30:34 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:02 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:57:53 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:15 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1677-ga65e377 (34) 05:41:16 -!- chan20 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:41:44 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:48:04 -!- Ultraviolent4 has quit [] 05:52:04 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:57:41 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:39 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:57 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:04:25 -!- jefus has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:10:35 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:16:57 -!- bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:20:01 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:10 -!- eb has quit [] 06:29:40 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:30:03 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:34:08 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:17 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:39:22 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:48 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:40:28 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:29 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:58:11 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:51 -!- chan20 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:41 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:19 -!- debo_ has quit [Quit: orb spiders :(] 08:37:06 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:17 -!- nezrel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:48 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 08:54:59 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:12 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:37 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 09:11:05 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:05 -!- packet_loss has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:58 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:14 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:27 -!- protopulse has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:02 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:27:27 -!- chan20 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:30:17 -!- VoidFox has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:32:09 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:41:40 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:27 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:27 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:00 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:42 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:42 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:45 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Changing host] 09:53:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:09 -!- ScarCow has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:54:45 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 10:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:23 -!- TuxQmoob has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:28 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Changing host] 10:04:17 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:05:59 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:17 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:59 numlockpick (L14 FoFi) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Lair:3) 10:12:33 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:40 -!- TuxQmob has quit [Changing host] 10:17:13 -!- Dracunos7 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:21:13 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:27:02 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 10:27:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:14 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:33 -!- SurpriseTRex_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:53:32 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:12 -!- protopulse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:00 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:08:20 -!- xnavy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:08:33 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:03 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:19:38 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:37 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:13 -!- cait_m has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:48 -!- AndChat|179025 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:29 -!- AltReality has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:25 -!- cait_m has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:31 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:10 -!- Kenran has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:43 Hi 11:48:50 I'm a Trog worsphipper and just visited a book shop. Naturally, all the books are red, but for 4 of them, the letter on the left are green. Is that 'normal', that is, does that color signify anything special? 11:49:02 Ah, nevermind.. 11:49:08 Those are the books I can afford 11:50:24 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:50:56 -!- AndChat|179025 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:52:37 -!- Kranix has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:25 -!- cait_m has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:50 -!- aditya has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:36 -!- chan20 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:59:46 -!- kaya is now known as kaya_moon 11:59:57 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:05 -!- CKyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:05 -!- CKyle has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:53 -!- CKyle_ has quit [Client Quit] 12:03:12 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:27 -!- CKyle has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:49 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:26 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:16:50 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:20 -!- aditya is now known as adibis 12:18:16 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:07 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:28:09 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:35 -!- can-of-bees has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:30:39 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:37:20 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:43 -!- cait_m has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:45:42 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:43 -!- Cerpin has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:55:04 -!- Cerpin has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:40 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:57 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 13:05:36 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:05:37 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1677-ga65e377 (34) 13:06:12 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:49 -!- cait_m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:13:02 -!- Nattefrost has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:16:20 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:52 -!- espais has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:00 Any experts on the qw bot in here? 13:21:46 Perhaps Mr. Elliptic? ;) 13:27:22 basically I was curious if there were any updates to making the game auto-restart on webtiles. I set DELAY = true and AUTO_START = true and it just dumps to the lobby. 13:28:11 I don't know of any way of doing that, but I don't use webtiles 13:28:12 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:12 I mean presumably it is possible to set up some sort of external script that waits until it sees the lobby and then starts a game, but I don't have such a thing handy 13:29:25 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:29:45 gotcha...is the intention of auto_restart a local thing then? 13:30:09 I was planning on doing some automation with a separate tool, but the commenting on the git readme made me think it was feasible in-bot 13:31:23 espais: well it is AUTO_START, not AUTO_RESTART - the intent of that option is to make qw start playing as soon as you start the game (rather than waiting for you to press tab) 13:31:48 espais: but yeah, when I want to play lots of games in a row I use a simple expect script (in console) 13:32:44 espais: you might also be able to make the restart_after_game rcfile option do what you want, but I think that option is currently local only 13:32:52 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:33:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:08 elliptic: gotcha. i'd assume that the rc file loses control once the lobby comes up anyway 13:35:21 (I'll be back in 15-20 minutes if you have more questions, have to go now) 13:35:22 yes 13:35:31 same here, take it easy 13:35:32 -!- espais has quit [] 13:39:37 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:40:25 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:07 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:48:03 Protection Weapons should color AC when active 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10695 by jejorda2 13:48:58 -!- henriqueleng has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:51:20 hmm, i thought they already do 13:56:07 webtiles? 13:56:42 -!- duvessa has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:35 "getting rid of their skill aptitudes makes them just "human with sexier ears" which would probably get removed from the game pretty fast." 13:57:45 i hope someone answers that phone because I fucking called it in 2015 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:53 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 14:03:34 -!- chan20 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:51 -!- cait_m has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:14:30 -!- adelrune has joined ##crawl-dev 14:26:37 f rsince people really love aptitudes, a sepcies that just has like +3 apts across the board 14:26:56 but sucks in all other ways 14:26:58 -!- cait_m has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:29:57 so, deep elf? 14:30:11 but moreso 14:30:20 deepest elf 14:34:35 -!- duvessa has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:41:12 -!- Alcopop has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:26 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:54 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: witty quit message goes here] 14:51:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53:00 -!- Taraiph has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:16 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:46 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:28 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.19-a0-1678-g8ce114c: Update webtiles HUD highlighting (#10695) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8ce114c4a87b 15:13:01 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:13:08 that was hard to grep for, and i guess nice and outdated as a result :P 15:16:03 -!- orionstein has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:42 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:09 -!- mibe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:37:29 I like the phrase "divinely vigorous" 15:37:39 -!- adelrune is now known as drpyser 15:38:59 -!- drpyser is now known as adelrune 15:39:34 for the record I still don't think exact HP numbers are a good idea, for all the reasons that have been stated many times here before 15:40:04 but apparently that's what whoever last changed monster descriptions decided?? it seems to change every time I look 15:40:36 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:39 oh, did it get changed to numbers when the bars were removed? 15:40:50 yes i also don't think the numbers are good at all 15:41:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:39 gammafunk: I haven't looked at commit history or looked at recent ##crawl-dev logs to see if it was discussed more 15:42:10 personally I would prefer using meaningful units if we are going to give numbers 15:42:31 I was actually serious when I suggested writing it as a multiple of yak HP 15:42:42 @??goblin 15:42:42 goblin (15g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-5 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 4 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | XP: 1 | Sz: small | Int: human. 15:42:44 @??yak 15:42:44 yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 30-45 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 204 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 15:42:50 this monster is 0.1 yaks? 15:43:00 i don't think there was any more discussion of it yeah, just the reversion of the fancy bar commit 15:43:03 @??cerebov 15:43:03 since currently it is in auhs (arbitrary unit of health) 15:43:03 Cerebov (05&) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 558-764 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Dam: 60 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 05damnation, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 22674 | Sp: iron shot (3d36) [06!sil], fire storm (8d16 / 8d17) [06!sil], sum.greater demon [06!sil], haste [06!sil] | Sz: Giant .. 15:43:27 cerebov: secretly ~20 yaks 15:43:40 he can't be 15:43:42 CanOfWorms: sure, would be better than saying "about 4" IMO 15:43:44 only one monster can be on a tile at a time 15:44:45 or could pick some other common early-ish monster instead, yak was just an example 15:45:01 @??ogre 15:45:01 ogre (07O) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 23-32 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Dam: 17 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 119 | Sz: Large | Int: human. 15:45:09 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:26 ogre is reasonable too 15:47:35 are ogres the beefiest earlygame non-ood monster the player can encounter? 15:47:40 @??phantom 15:47:40 phantom (02W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 30-45 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 1006(blink self) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 124 | Sp: blink [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 15:47:48 nope 15:47:57 earlygame being like, pre-temple 15:50:43 -!- adelrune has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:03 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:57:55 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:49 -!- bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:02:49 -!- Dracunos7 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:07:38 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 16:09:09 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1678-g8ce114c (34) 16:15:27 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:24:27 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:56 -!- scummos| has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:35:48 -!- protopulse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:42:24 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:44 -!- packet_l_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:44 -!- packet_loss has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:22 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:20 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:55:49 -!- sgun_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:56 -!- tmt has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:06:47 MarvinPA: when you delete posts in a tavern thread, do you usually send a PM about it? 17:07:22 it's not something I've done very much, so I'm not sure what we've done in the past typically 17:08:47 i normally don't bother, since the kind of stuff i usually delete doesn't seem like it needs justification 17:09:26 if it's just completely contentless things in gdd or whatever 17:10:13 !tell ontoclasm http://i.imgur.com/bPqMNRW.png a few more armour stuff 17:10:14 CanOfWorms: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 17:12:43 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:00 -!- THERetroGamerNY has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 17:13:02 elliptic: MarvinPA: i really, sincerely do not understand the objections to real number monster average maximum hit point display 17:13:02 PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:13:03 greetings 17:13:09 it's really frustrating at this point, tbh! 17:13:15 i feel like i've gone around in circles... 17:15:46 Isn't the basic justification of not showing HP numbers that the player really doesn't know how much damage their attack does? 17:16:00 that doesn't matter 17:16:23 the player also doesn't know how many HP bars worth of damage their attack does 17:16:43 HP bars? 17:16:50 mojibake bars or plusses or w/e 17:17:05 that seems to be an argument for now showing monster HP 17:17:09 *not 17:17:38 the entire point is so that you can look at monsters and get an aggregate idea of their toughness 17:17:47 durability 17:17:55 right now we display only ac and ev, which is really misleading in some cases 17:17:56 e.g. curse skulls 17:18:03 which have huge ac and almost no hp 17:18:20 if you run into, say, gastronok 17:18:22 @??gastronok 17:18:22 Gastronok (06w) | Spd: 5 | HD: 20 | HP: 128-174 | AC/EV: 3/1 | Dam: 40 | 10items, 10doors, amphibious, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 2222 | Sp: cantrip, airstrike (0-50), sum.small mammal, slow, sprint | Sz: Big | Int: human. 17:18:39 you can say "ok, this guy has no defenses, but has 150 max hp. wow, he's tough as heck! scary!" 17:18:56 whereas right now it'd show . ac/ev, or +, or w/e. show him as a wimp, basically. 17:19:30 "how do you know how much hp means?" by looking at many different monster types over the course of play 17:19:36 well I don't get the impression that my seeing "128" is the right level of detail for telling me that gastronok is not a wimp 17:19:41 same as "how do you know how much weapon damage means" (or w/e) 17:19:50 the numbers are not much less ugly than the bars currently imo, yes 17:19:57 gammafunk: it seems like you're arguing for obfuscation for the sake of it? 17:20:06 MarvinPA: the bars were completely incomprehensible to players 17:20:27 as a player who is also a developer the bars were completely incomprehensible to me too fwiw 17:20:29 PleasingFungus: yes, in the same sense that we obfuscate player damage, I guess 17:20:34 yes and so are the numbers probably 17:20:39 player damage is not spoilerable 17:21:08 well, it certainly is, I guess you're saying that it's harder to spoil (average player damage, that is) 17:21:11 you cannot take "you hit the quokka!" and look it up in an external db and find "oh, I did 3 damage. the quokka is now at 1 hp" 17:21:12 no 17:21:35 you can no more spoil player damage than you can spoil monster placement on a level, or loot placement, etc 17:21:44 (excepting some vaults sometimes) 17:22:07 elliptic's suggestion of arbitrary units of hp of some sort sounds like an improvement to me, anyway 17:22:10 MarvinPA: why would "Max HP: about 5" be 'incomprehensible?' do you have any evidence of players being confused by that? 17:22:20 hp: choko 17:22:29 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:22:43 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:48 i don't think numbers would be as hard to understand, because players already know what numbers are. they won't know how much 50HP is right away, the first time they see that number, but if they xv a few monsters they'll quickly get good context. with the mojibake bars they need to learn a new visual system 17:23:06 yeah I just don't see how seeing exact numbers in a game that hides player damage is ever going to be the right scale 17:23:14 should we hide player hp 17:23:34 you are saying things like "it's not the right scale" but: why 17:24:13 I just said why, we don't show the damage that the player does, so the level of detail of "one-hundred-and-twenty-eight" is a lot of information that is useless 17:24:19 it's not useless. 17:24:25 i have said this over and over again. 17:24:36 it is useful because you can compare it to other monsters. 17:24:42 displaying it to that level of detail makes it seem like it is far more important than it actually is 17:24:55 it's not useless in its entirety, but it's too much useless information 17:25:05 whereas displaying it to a simpler level of detail (as with current ac/ev bars) would be much clearer and just as useful 17:25:09 it's dramatically simpler to understand than any other way of representing the information. 17:25:16 hp +++++ is much, much harder to read than hp 50. 17:25:41 reinventing the number system is in no way "clearer and useful"! 17:26:18 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:26:20 you don't show the damage that monsters do either yet you still show player HP 17:27:30 using units and displaying units is not "reinventing the number system" in any way 17:27:34 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:54 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:29:57 no, but it's introducing a layer of indirection for no reason other than imprecision 17:30:14 -!- HolyRage has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:31:32 can I just point out that the android tiles build apparently still works and that guy has been churning out nightly builds of that for many months now 17:31:37 this is a small miracle 17:31:42 yeah that was a surprise 17:31:48 i've been pointing people to him 17:31:53 hopefully not giving them viruseses... 17:31:57 viruseseses 17:32:13 well, if they get infected, they probably deserve it for using androids. 17:32:19 I guess we should ask him to give us a recent stable version of that build? 17:32:24 since we still link to 0.16.1 17:32:28 responding to a mantis comment via crd is very good, also 17:32:38 i don't really get that... 17:32:45 whatever works for mr. waffle #69 17:33:17 of course, the game already values imprecision over directness and readability to this extent, with the way it displays monster ac/ev/mr, spell power, spell hunger, ability costs...so doing the same thing for hp is consistent 17:33:19 when we add imprecision for things like piety or contam or monster current hp, it's so that the player does not have to track it. it's an internally randomized value that *can't* be looked up or 'spoilered*, and we blur the display to roughly the precision that a player *could* track it if they tried. (very roughly.) monster avg mhp is not in that category. it cannot be randomized - the... 17:33:21 ...average is fixed, and can be spoilered via bots or source - and it doesn't impose any burden on the player, since it doesn't change. 17:33:59 ...all those things are pretty easy to look up and be spoiled about, though? 17:34:02 i think a lot of the other things that we're imprecise about, like the ones that minmay mentioned, are also very silly at best. but i don't want to enter some kind of "slippery slope" discussion. 17:34:44 like I'm not seeing the fundamental difference here other than player HP is one of the few things that is actually shown to the player, but that applies equally to AC 17:35:05 yeah this is where the yak hp people are probably coming from 17:35:16 and believe me 17:35:17 minmay: a difference between the things i mentioned & monster mhp, or between the things you mentioned and monster mhp? 17:35:18 we like yaks 17:35:25 i did implement a kind of yak hp, fwiw 17:35:31 %git average_hp_numeric 17:35:31 Could not find commit average_hp_numeric (git returned 128) 17:35:34 shot 17:35:40 %git avg_hp_numeric 17:35:41 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1643-gcbcb955: Add some silly comparisons to xv HP desc 10(4 days ago, 1 file, 26+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cbcb95506f50 17:36:03 it seemed excessively silly and difficult to maintain, but iirc chequers liked it 17:36:52 PleasingFungus: between the things you mentioned and monster mhp 17:37:08 also the things I mentioned and monster hp 17:37:41 if i show you a player with ***... piety, how much piety do they have? 17:37:42 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:37:43 they're all hidden, experimentally determinable, and relatively easy to get spoiled about if you want 17:37:57 they decay at random rates, iirc 17:38:02 well I'm going back to editing my des file, since des files don't argue back at me! 17:38:10 i know that feel 17:38:32 well, monster hp regenerates at random rates, which is similar 17:38:36 PleasingFungus: and monster max HP is randomized but you can still know it much more accurately by being spoilered 17:38:45 which is what i'm trying to fix here... 17:38:48 more or less 17:40:19 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:48 -!- duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:54 of all the things that have been mentioned the only one I see as fundamentally different from showing monster MHP is monster EV and SH, because they work differently from player EV and SH for some reason 17:41:03 and yet are called the same things 17:41:25 so unlike all the other numbers mentioned, showing them is actually misleading 17:42:06 unless in the same breath you also explain how EV and SH work for players and monsters, which I'm fairly confident is not going to happen 17:42:47 since when do we explain any mechanics 17:42:59 clearly we'd display it as MEV and MSH 17:43:40 PleasingFungus: you don't which is why showing both monster and player EV is misleading because players will assume they're the same (because they're called the same thing) but they're not 17:43:48 i get it. i was making a joke 17:43:59 please reduce the intensity of the minmaying you're doing @ me 17:44:08 i am a tender soul. i can only take so much... 17:44:20 at least you don't get PMs about elves 17:44:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46:08 -!- HolyRage has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:46:17 -!- HolyRage_ is now known as HolyRage 17:48:02 PleasingFungus: the thing that I don't like about showing HP numbers the way they are currently shown is that they are completely meaningless on their own - you need to remember something about the scale that they use 17:48:28 how is that different from literally any other method of displaying monster hp 17:48:40 PleasingFungus: remembering something isn't that hard of course, but I see it as unnecessary - did you see my suggestion of expressing things as multiples of yak HP? 17:48:44 or, really, any other number in the game 17:48:45 yes 17:48:52 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:56 well, what do you dislike about doing that? 17:49:19 (a) all early game monsters would be displayed as having the same hp, even ones that are dramatically tougher or more fragile than others 17:49:28 PleasingFungus: 0.1 and 0.2 are not the same number, fyi 17:49:37 oh, we're using floats? sorry, i didn't realize 17:50:10 or at least multiples of 0.1 or something, yes 17:50:17 I'm not suggesting going back to a bar 17:50:22 the other problem with that is that has weird connotations for monsters with different defenses - like, a curse skull is maybe two yaks of hp, but it's much tougher 17:50:36 but saying "2 yaks", even explicitly with reference to average mhp, feels very misleading 17:50:39 PleasingFungus: that is exactly the same problem as currently, no? 17:50:48 ? 17:51:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:43 the #1 problem with saying "2 yaks" is that the first monster a new player sees is almost certainly not a yak 17:51:46 PleasingFungus: if you tell people that curse skulls are 60 HP and they compare them with 40 HP yaks, they will think that curse skulls only have a little more HP than yaks 17:51:56 -!- TMTurtle_ is now known as TMTurtle 17:52:06 (which they do) 17:52:12 -!- koolguydude has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:31 minmay: yes, and if you tell people that curse skull HP is 1.5*yak hp then they will think the same thing 17:52:46 minmay: also comparing with ogres might be better 17:52:53 (this was suggested earlier) 17:53:11 still not the first monster, but the HP display is going to be useless for your first monster regardless 17:53:25 antaeus: two hundred rats 17:53:26 in a titan suit 17:53:41 PleasingFungus: basically I am suggesting giving players more information 17:53:44 right but xving a monster and having the desc refer to a monster you didn't even know existed yet seems odd to me 17:54:45 PleasingFungus: as it is monster HP is displayed using Meaningless Code Units 17:55:10 PleasingFungus: and I am suggesting using units with some understandable meaning 17:55:25 i'm not strongly opposed to it. it feels a little silly, but i get where you're coming from 17:55:31 hrm 17:55:34 all right, how's this for a compromise 17:55:45 display monster HP in number of lurking horrors 17:55:47 lol 17:56:05 does the player have sInv? 17:56:09 or ballistomycete spores! 17:56:14 are lurking horrors invisible? 17:56:18 @??lurking horror 17:56:18 lurking horror (02*) | Spd: 12 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 1 | 11non-living, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(10), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 0 | Sz: small | Int: brainless. 17:56:23 oh those 17:56:30 yeah i was thrown off initially too 17:56:34 until i consulted my list of monsters ordered by hp 17:56:56 for the record, dart slugs are monsters that players will probably encounter on d:1, and they have exactly 10 average mhp.... 17:57:16 ; ) 17:57:26 elliptic: what would a display of this kind actually show next to the number? no units? 17:57:38 dart slugs are a bit rare though, a fair number of games see 0 of them 17:57:45 really? huh 17:57:48 I wanted to use a monster that players have fought a lot of times 17:58:02 "HP: 5.8 giant cockroaches" 17:58:24 i can't remember the last game where i didn't see a dart slug on d:1 17:58:31 I can 17:58:35 well, leaving aside the games where i get murdered in the entry vault 17:58:46 gammafunk: "HP: 0.2 ogres" would be the simplest, perhaps there is something better though 17:59:09 i have long dreamt of the ogremeter 17:59:19 <|amethyst> ogres don't even appear until D:4 17:59:21 Where is the melee damage formula in the code? 17:59:29 looks like the average game spawns ~0.8 dart slugs on d:1, which isn't that high, yeah 17:59:35 ~2 over D 18:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:08 nikheizen: mostly spread over melee_attack.cc and attack.cc, bits and pieces elsewhere probably 18:00:22 if you -have- to show HP, just put the number, imo 18:00:22 ontoclasm: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:00:25 !messages 18:00:26 (1/1) CanOfWorms said (50m 12s ago): http://i.imgur.com/bPqMNRW.png a few more armour stuff 18:00:30 one obvious problem here, of course, is that if we ever change the reference monster's hp, that'll mess with everything else's display 18:00:40 -!- jefus- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:55 mess up in terms of player memory? 18:01:00 just change 18:01:09 "50 rats" is ridiculous, everyone will just go ", okay, rats have 6 hp so" 18:01:22 hrm, ogres have 27.5 avg mhp. not a nice number 18:01:31 also: rats have variable hp 18:01:40 as do the monsters you're describing 18:01:40 -!- ChaseSP has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:43 PleasingFungus: only 0.5 off! 18:01:48 what's your point, ontoclasm? 18:01:49 hahaha 18:02:49 PleasingFungus: well, part of the point is that the unit monster doesn't need to have particularly nice average HP when measured in Meaningless Code Units 18:03:17 but yes clearly nerf ogre HP slightly to make it 27 average 18:03:18 i guess people who want to remember the real hp can just look it up anyway 18:03:28 would be nice if it was easy to eyeball, that's all 18:03:33 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:34 replace ogres with basajuanak 18:03:37 lol 18:03:37 they have 27 ave hp 18:03:42 <|amethyst> what about weapon base damages? 18:03:47 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19-a0-1678-g8ce114c (34) 18:04:00 |amethyst: yes, we'll start describing those in multiples of club base damage 18:04:06 <|amethyst> I mean, it seems strange to obscure average monster HP but to show weapon base damage 18:04:18 -!- jeefus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:21 *basajaunak, I keep forgetting that 18:04:25 <|amethyst> since the two are sort of on the same scale, assuming no skill and 10 str 18:04:28 they aren't really very closely related though given all the multipliers and dice rolls and such 18:04:39 gammafunk: looks like my lair:$ vault is sunken palace 18:04:40 i feel like it is the same thing - they're both Arbitrary Units Of Code 18:04:58 CanOfWorms: sorry about your splat 18:05:08 also it is much more natural to want to compare weapon base damage directly since you are choosing one over the other 18:05:11 don't worry, I've already climbed back up 18:05:22 whereas you often see a monster by itself and have to assess how dangerous it is 18:05:22 such is the curse of those who don't make my sif muna altar tiles! 18:05:57 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:57 i feel like it's very difficult to assess a monster's danger without comparing it to other monsters, and i don't know how much value comparing a golden dragon's hp to an ogre's gives you 18:06:13 more than comparing its HP to 1 18:06:15 a golden dragon is four ogres of hp. 18:06:19 i don't think it is, really 18:06:44 i mean, if it makes you happier, i'll implement ogre mode 18:06:44 I guess this is not actually related to use of explicit HP or another unit, but the damage a player can do to an ogre changes over time pretty dramatically 18:07:05 i don't think it's actually better than displaying raw numbers, but i wish to see tranquility and joy in the devteam 18:07:05 I guess this is just as much a problem with showing monster AC though 18:07:19 and ogremode is certainly better than just leaving hp hidden or in quadratic plusses (!) or w/e 18:07:26 consider: HULK mode 18:07:31 compromise is important in a dev relationship 18:07:35 !send gammafunk trog 18:07:35 Sending trog to gammafunk. 18:07:44 trog is not hard to program! 18:07:55 ??hulk 18:07:55 I don't have a page labeled hulk in my learndb. 18:07:57 think of the complexity of the wrath effects 18:07:58 wat 18:07:59 fire miscasts! 18:08:07 ?/hulk 18:08:08 Matching terms (1): rotting_hulk; entries (2): plague_shambler[1]: Replacement for rotting hulks in 0.13. Speed 10, stronger, more hp, inflict a Retching status that blocks food/potions, and on death spawns a cloud of miasma that spreads one tile per 10 aut. Gone in 0.15. | twelwe[1]: THE HULK CANNOT EQUIP ARMOUR. THE HULK NEVER STOPS BEING THE HULK, BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO PROGRAM. 18:08:13 heh 18:08:26 i appreciate the sad history of the plague shambler 18:08:45 they were kind of cool 18:08:55 Yeah, entries beginning with "Replacement for..." an ending with "Gone in..." are good 18:09:15 ?/eplace.*[Gg]one 18:09:15 Matching entries (2): plague_shambler[1] | zonguldrok's_shrine[1] 18:09:20 ??zonguldrok's shrine 18:09:20 zonguldrok's shrine[1/1]: Boring zombies and skeletons slowly replace all of the gravestones over time: once they're all gone, pass through the new door and a few skeletal warriors to find Zonguldrok's tombstone, which then is replaced with an antique lich when you go for the loot. 18:09:31 ?/eplace.*[Rr]emov 18:09:32 Matching entries (2): plan[2] | potion_of_cancellation[1] 18:09:36 ??potion of cancellation 18:09:36 potion of cancellation[1/3]: New potion in 0.15 that replaces {potion of paralysis}. Removes all magic effects + a few points of contam like scroll of vulnerability used to, without the -MR effect. Removes slow (including post berserk slow but not exh), conf, tele, petrifying, mark and more (but not flay/mesm/fear - YET). Read entry 2 for more. 18:09:43 feh 18:10:53 -!- packet_l_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:01 PleasingFungus: fwiw I'm definitely not certain that "Ogre HP" is the best solution and I'm open to other ideas - hopefully at least you understand now what I don't like about showing the raw HP number? 18:12:50 ssssort of, kind of 18:13:39 it feels like a sort of premature optimization in design 18:14:02 it would be nice if we had any actual players to talk to about this kind of thing 18:14:03 -!- Kenran has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:20 I dunno, some of us have played crawl 18:14:26 really? why would you do that? 18:14:44 look, I haven't, I've just heard of a dev who did once. He may have done so by accident 18:15:32 seems like the simplest explanation. 18:15:52 measuring hp in ogres is exacly the same as measuring it in 1s, except that you're tying it to a very tenous and easily misunderstood anchor 18:15:59 tenuous* 18:16:32 <|amethyst> It seems to me that expressing HP in terms of ogres makes it easier to compare it to ogres 18:16:35 i would also have accepted 'tendentious' 18:16:37 since ogres have varying hp and (you could argue) 1 ogre hp is worth much less than 1 hp on many other creatures 18:16:56 <|amethyst> If you want to compare to something else, you have to divide, whether ogres/ogres or HP/HP 18:17:12 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: the latter is a problem however you show HP 18:17:21 i don't think varying hp matters that much, since everything has varying hp, and hp that varies about the same way. the concern about defenses being misleading is fair, and something that i was trying and failing to express earlier 18:17:21 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: which PF brought up re curse skulls 18:17:23 yeah 18:17:30 well 18:17:34 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: what is the current formula for monster HP range? 18:17:41 !source hit_points 18:17:41 1/2. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc#L2049 18:17:52 comments for the function explain 18:17:58 i mean, i think explicitly comparing to other creatures is more likely to invite confusion on that account 18:18:03 wrt defenses and mhp 18:18:10 <|amethyst> so the distribution is the same, just scaled by MHP? 18:18:12 that's just my feeling. i don't have evidence for it 18:18:13 yeah 18:18:18 <|amethyst> so comparing to ogres isn't bad in that sense 18:18:33 something like a butterfly technically has a different distribution 18:18:46 but who cares 18:18:48 <|amethyst> if an average storm dragon is N average ogres, then a weak storm dragon is N weak ogres 18:18:59 <|amethyst> likewise, a strong storm dragon is N strong ogres 18:19:18 <|amethyst> so variable HP doesn't really bother me re ogrescale 18:21:09 i think you guys are worrying too much about the particularities of the scale 18:21:59 <|amethyst> the bikeshed is already built, someone has to paint it! 18:22:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:09 i'm telling you: multiples of dart slug. 18:22:29 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: and make dart slug more common 18:22:29 haha 18:22:29 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: sounds like a win to me 18:22:31 brutal felid nerf 18:22:44 new crawl canon: bikeshed paint is made from dart slug corpses 18:22:47 <|amethyst> merge dart slugs and worms 18:23:10 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:20 you may never remove worms as long as kiting is still possible in any other situation 18:23:57 -!- Kranix has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:24:03 a friend IM'd me yesterday talking about my talk. "Does walking around to regenerate while an enemy chases you count as 'victory dancing?'" 18:24:30 one dance is much like another, really 18:24:46 re: the scale, when I was learning, the most helpful things about the AC/EV scale were knowing "don't use a shortblade against this guy" "oh iron shot is bad against guys with lots of EV" 18:25:04 rod of inaccuracy!!! 18:25:17 rod of inaccuracy is a LOT more useful with those displays 18:25:22 so i don't think the meaningless code units elliptic discussed really matter, the scale existing is already helpful 18:25:29 yes another good example 18:25:32 did you only start playing relatively recently? 18:25:36