00:00:13 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:13 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 00:00:32 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:55 chequers: achievements *should* be for things you'll do anyway imo. it provides a sense of accomplishment for the new player who wants their first 15-rune win. the alternative is stuff like "Kill 500 demonspawns across all games", which encourages dumb behaviour like scumming pan and griping about how little fun you're having while you grind for cheevos 00:03:31 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:03:35 chequers: achievement for leaving the abyss from J:5 00:03:57 possibly without following lugonu, up to you 00:04:27 CanOfWorms: can't do that without milestone parsing, which we skip for now 00:04:35 oh 00:04:37 what can you do 00:04:58 oh here's a good one 00:05:03 killed by a 27 headed hydra 00:05:06 pretty much anything in a logfile entry for now 00:05:47 amalloy: "Tangible, expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation" from the link I posted 00:05:47 <|amethyst> which seems like it would cover both of those cases 00:06:58 <|amethyst> "Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback" strikes me as pretty much impossible in an open source game with a spoiler culture 00:07:19 <|amethyst> specifically the "unexpected" part 00:07:51 and also an open scoreboard listing everyone else's achievements 00:08:03 yes, I don't entirely disagree 00:08:28 another achievement: died while paralyzed 00:08:34 <|amethyst> a scoreboard in general strikes me as a "tangible, expected, contingent reward" 00:08:41 i don't really get how you can be trying to add achievements while using that page as a guide 00:08:47 because it basically says all the things you are doing are bad 00:09:45 I don't entirely agree with the page. I think achievements with no external value attached to them (eg bragging rights, in-game currency) can be overall beneficial 00:10:04 But the talk is a good overview of how a lot of achievement designs fail, and why they fail 00:10:22 <|amethyst> what's your definition of "external value" here? 00:11:21 getting the achievment gives you something more than a warm glow of satisfaction 00:11:21 xbox achievements give you gamerscore, for example 00:11:27 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:11:31 <|amethyst> does gamerscore give you things? 00:11:50 makes you more attractive to the ladies 00:11:56 it's a number on your profile that's bigger than your friends 00:11:59 so, yes :) 00:12:09 chequers: having a public scoreboard with achievements on it is the same thing 00:12:10 <|amethyst> oh 00:12:13 <|amethyst> I misread 00:12:23 <|amethyst> you were giving "bragging rights" as an example of external value 00:12:29 ya 00:12:52 "i have 8 of the 15 dcss achievements, and my loser friend only has 3" 00:13:00 amalloy: if we want to be reductionist the most motivating game throws away your score immediately after death 00:13:14 yes, that is perfect. that is how i play crawl 00:13:28 -!- titanjones has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:13:39 chequers: is diesel an achievement that can be done right now? 00:13:41 minmay: not sure about the 15-rune win achievement. It feels a little close to "you'll do this anyway" 00:13:43 ??diesel 00:13:44 diesel[1/5]: Invented by mikee_, the fuel to power the generation of tomorrow. 00:13:44 (okay, not really, i do try for streaks) 00:13:45 and escaping with the orb doesn't? 00:13:47 ??diesel[2 00:13:47 diesel[2/5]: 46 ac/ 31 ev 00:13:52 <|amethyst> !lg аmalloy 00:13:53 No games for аmalloy. 00:14:17 also, highlight the unique titles (e.g. la petite mort) 00:14:21 finally, anonymity 00:14:40 minmay: yeah, that was the initial prototype achievement. that along with the great/greater/poly-esque achievements are probably a mistake (also since they're all already represented on your score page) 00:14:49 stil don't have a legit 15 rune win chequers 00:14:52 just FYI 00:15:55 amalloy: I think games can confortably fit in a certain band along the "no recognition for wins <---> baseball-level stats tracking" continuum, and that crawl can have more stats added which will be overall good 00:16:55 i love the stats sequell currently has, because they're ad hoc things, and i can look up how other people play 00:17:13 yeah, sequell's abilities are great. I don't think you could ever match them with a better UI 00:17:25 achievements are meh, i don't mind having them or not having them, but i don't buy your argument that 15-rune wins are a "dumb tangible thing" that shouldn't be an achievement while this other stuff should be 00:17:50 15-rune wins are one of the big things that newcomers to this game currently try to achieve 00:17:59 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:18:12 <|amethyst> I think you might have a kind of rarefied view of newcomers to the game 00:18:14 i don't think recognizing it with a badge or whatever will make that less fulfilling for them 00:18:19 well, okay, new winners 00:18:54 every time i see someone's first YAVP post, in the comments either they or someone else say "15-rune win next!" 00:19:22 I agree 15-rune wins are seen as "better" than 3-rune wins, and they are seen as goals for lots of players 00:19:24 and i'm like, actually you don't *have* to do that 00:19:30 chequers: you need to have an achievement for every rune count between 3 and 15 00:19:50 should have an achievement for highscores at each rune count :P 00:19:50 all I need is a field on the profile saying "most runes collected in a winning game" 00:20:05 be the person with the best grfi at 8 runes :P 00:20:15 !lg * gree urune=8 max=score 00:20:16 12. Demo the Petrodigitator (L27 GrEE of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2015-10-03 23:33:21, with 3950583 points after 145790 turns and 22:28:37. 00:20:19 <|amethyst> presumably most unique runes 00:20:34 <|amethyst> !lg * won urune<15 max=nrune 00:20:37 oh, another achievement: died to an orb of fire/berserk orb guardian/alich 00:20:39 35843. Stabwound the Farming Skullcrusher (L27 MuSu of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 111 runes on 2008-03-10 02:42:21, with 9425283 points after 92568259 turns and 5d+8:15:16. 00:20:41 yes i know old crawl 00:21:03 my fave cheevos of the current bunch are the ghost-auto-murder one and dying with 3+ runes 00:21:22 you're not going to put dying with 15+ runes??? 00:21:22 they're whimsical, and unexpected 00:21:48 also dying in a zigg 00:22:29 CanOfWorms's suggestion before made me think of another: dying with tele status 00:22:29 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:22:29 rest in peace: died in crypt/tomb 00:22:29 also dying to god wrath 00:22:29 -!- Jafet has joined ##crawl-dev 00:22:32 oh and the classics 00:22:36 dying to sigmund/grinder 00:22:47 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:22 <|amethyst> died at XL 9+ without encountering a unique 00:23:34 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:40 <|amethyst> something you have very little control over, so can't scum for 00:23:47 <|amethyst> s/scum/grind/ 00:23:58 i don't mind having a couple death achievements, but i don't like the idea of someone being like "well i want to get all the achievements, guess i better start suiciding" 00:24:03 well you could just shaft yourself as Fo until you get it 00:24:20 I listed those death achievements because they're the most likely causes of death 00:24:47 which means we need "died to a hobgoblin" 00:24:59 "died" 00:25:10 title: "Welcome to crawl" 00:26:24 killed a ghost, title: "using features that won't exist in 2 versions" 00:27:25 died to duvessa melee, title: "en garde, fuckboy" 00:28:03 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:03 <|amethyst> Randomly give achievements implying that the player's race is soon to be removed. 00:28:03 -!- Jafet has quit [Quit: Jafet] 00:28:03 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:03 |amethyst: 👌 00:28:20 "Win Minotaur Berserker in the month before its removal" 00:28:26 -!- Rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:28:38 <|amethyst> "Last of the merfolk" 00:30:34 amalloy: I want to discourage achievement farming by a) not distinguishing between possible and impossible achievments (eg you can't farm the "0.12 tourney winner" cheevo), and b) not listing all the achievements anywhere or even counting how many everyone has 00:30:46 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-1490-g5dd3618 (34) 00:31:02 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:10 and c) avoiding really egregiously farmable achievements, like "die to every unique" 00:31:31 |amethyst: maybe "win a game without killing a unique" -- although that could lead to late-game frustration 00:31:46 (and it needs milestone/morgue parsing) 00:32:52 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:33:39 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:19 -!- Kinbote has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:37:07 almostgreatplayer: play a game with every race 00:37:16 etc. for greaterplayer and polytheist 00:40:05 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:41:02 lol 00:41:07 definitely farmable 00:42:28 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:43:50 get a rune with ten different races 00:46:04 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:36 -!- Zymurgist has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:49:32 greatloser 00:50:20 -!- jehoesefat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:25 deathstreak? 00:51:07 !lg * ktyp=starvation 00:51:21 8885. ztj1141998 the Skirmisher (L5 DsBe of Trog), starved to death on D:3 on 2016-09-07 19:52:47, with 189 points after 3896 turns and 0:12:08. 00:51:40 starve to death as a berserker... hmmm 00:52:41 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:54:36 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:06 "for harambe": win as a non-felid/op with no armour 00:59:15 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:28 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:01:35 to difficult to enforce, people could just undress on the d:0 staircase 01:01:35 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:02:08 I don't know if you could figure it out from the title but that wasn't a serious achievement suggestion 01:02:22 jokes aren't real 01:02:41 alternatively, "for harambe": leave the dungeon as a kobold chaos knight 01:03:06 win a game without ever using needles of sleep 01:03:34 harambe meme is as dead as the actual gorilla anyways 01:03:35 I guess win a game without ever firing could be good 01:03:52 the harambe memes, like harambe, live on in our hearts 01:04:15 need morgue parsing to track that one, but it's something I'd like to implement 01:04:39 win a game as a non-spriggan/mummy/vampire without eating any chunks! 01:04:45 maybe I'll add cheevos for all the tourney winners and then circle back to cheevos after they've settled in for a few weeks 01:04:53 that's a good one 01:05:08 put it on our brainstorm doc pls? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VRzRsfSamF8HineZKvUt0xlNrD4GntggbKRhva6C21I/edit?usp=sharing 01:05:08 that was actually another joke 01:06:16 i'm not sure how I feel about 'conduct' achievements but it's probably worth writing them down 01:06:22 "I thought we were friends" should maybe be "die to your own hostile summon" instead of specifically mak 01:06:27 though death cheevos are weird 01:07:09 towersofbeng (L24 FoFi) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 663: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) (D (Sprint)) 01:07:29 !lg * vmsg~~summoned_by_the_player_character\)$ 01:07:30 ERROR: invalid regular expression: parentheses () not balanced 01:07:35 !lg * vmsg~~summoned_by_the_player_character)$ 01:07:36 ERROR: invalid regular expression: parentheses () not balanced 01:07:46 !lg * vmsg~~summoned_by_the_player_character 01:08:07 6447. yngar the Chopper (L3 DrWn of Nemelex Xobeh), slain by a wyvern (summoned by the player character) on D:2 on 2016-09-08 03:41:42, with 42 points after 1065 turns and 0:06:48. 01:08:46 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:08:59 would "Win as formicid without digging, shafting, or equipping a shield" be "Can be implemented today" 01:10:01 no 01:10:06 "win without having any fun at all" 01:10:13 which we also call "felid" 01:12:55 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:13:02 dumps don't include when you equip stuff 01:14:05 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:09 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:18:35 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 01:19:21 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:20:10 -!- packet_loss has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:32 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 01:21:32 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:22:26 k, i added my ideas 01:22:49 ctrl-f "lick an elf" 01:24:34 -!- packet_loss has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:25:26 i assume he replaced buttlang with elflang also 01:26:48 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:28:11 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:19 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30:38 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:29 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:35:39 hrm, what's the version command for all servers 01:35:45 %git :/rest_delay 01:35:45 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1487-g96ce7ed: Re-add rest_delay option (oops) 10(10 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/96ce7ed71cf8 01:35:49 !versions 01:35:56 !cmd !versions 01:35:57 No command !versions 01:36:00 &versions 01:36:07 !cmd &versions 01:36:08 Command: &versions => .echo $(join ", " (map (fn (src) (concat $src ": " (=version.query $src $*))) (serverlist))) 01:36:10 CAO: 0.19-a0-1487-g96ce7ed, CBRO: 0.19-a0-1487-g96ce7ed, CDO: 0.19-a0-1468-ge013c26, CPO: 0.19-a0-1490-g5dd3618, CSZO: none, CUE: 0.19-a0-1489-ga782747, CWZ: 0.19-a0-1379-gd925bfa, CXC: 0.19-a0-1490-g5dd3618, LLD: 0.19-a0-1125-g0365730 01:36:17 !patience 01:36:54 are you saying I don't have any, johnstein?!?! 01:37:12 I think lld's version numbers are weird 01:37:23 hm 01:37:27 that or dplusplus just has a less frequent schedule 01:37:36 ??rebuild[lld 01:37:36 I don't have a page labeled rebuild[lld in my learndb. 01:37:38 !kw t0.6 01:37:39 Unknown tourney version: 0.6 01:37:39 ??rebuild 01:37:40 rebuild[1/2]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://underhound.eu:81/rebuild/ http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rebuild/ http://crawl.xtahua.com/rebuild/ https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rebuild/ Bug |amethyst or Nap.Kin for CDO. Use your powers wisely. 01:37:42 !kw t0.7 01:37:43 Built-in: t0.7 => start>=20100801 time<20100901 cv=0.7 explbr= 01:37:45 ??rebuild[2 01:37:45 rebuild[2/2]: Trunk update start times in UTC (second number during summer time): CAO: 1700; CDO: 0600/0500; CLAN: 2300/2200; CBRO: 0800/0700; CXC: 0500/0400; CPO: every 15 minutes; CJR: every hour 01:37:46 !kw t0.5 01:37:47 Built-in: t0.5 => start>=20090801 time<20090901 cv=0.5 explbr= 01:37:53 oh hm 01:38:07 %git 01:38:07 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1490-g5dd3618: Fix a memory leak 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5dd3618561fa 01:38:07 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:38:43 minmay: what's the "it's purple for a reason" reference? 01:39:21 also the rare/unicorn? Are those two dev injokes? 01:39:22 lig potion is purple like ambrosia 01:39:36 !kw t0.4 01:39:37 Built-in: t0.4 => start>=20080801 time<20080901 cv=0.4 explbr= 01:39:53 ah yes ok 01:40:27 isn't that the lab starvation one 01:40:43 as in, "you actually starved in a lab", something hard to do unintentionally 01:40:44 unicorn is lab starvation 01:40:58 rare is dying to ribbit in lair. oh, wordplay? 01:41:44 i don't want to be negative, but i think the death achievements are a really bad idea 01:41:55 unicorns are very rare, chequers 01:41:55 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:42:10 so it's like "this is rare", "this is even more rare" 01:42:30 gammafunk: but what would it sound like if prince ribbit tried to say "lair" 01:42:54 you're right on lig and lab starvation 01:43:09 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:43:16 "Rare" is because a prince ribbit in lair is a relatively rare pepe 01:43:26 PleasingFungus: because they encourage dying? 01:43:34 i also think they are a really bad idea 01:44:11 and yet you added them 01:44:26 have you met minmay before? 01:44:26 chequers: if people care about achievements on your site, they will be encouraged to die in specific ways, which is dumb and not super fun. if people don't care about achievements on your site, then there is no reason to add achievements on your site. 01:44:53 PleasingFungus: i do think there's a middle ground, but I take your point 01:45:05 you cannot say "they will be a secret" because, if people care about achievements on your site, they will not be a secret. 01:46:01 also I'm not buying that "rare pepe" explanation 01:46:01 ! 01:46:03 i like the idea of recognizing various player achievements, especially those relevant to new players - reaching temple, lair, getting a rune, getting the orb 01:46:11 every achievement you add is a command to like, i dunno, 10% of the userbase, "You Must Do This On Purpose", because they want every achievement. so think about how those players will act, and whether that's a thing you want to encourage 01:46:13 gammafunk: I added it specifically to slip in a stupid meme 01:46:17 but i feel like that's not what you're doing with your system 01:46:24 I didn't want to literally title it "Rare Pepe" because that was too obvious 01:47:01 pepe was better before he was a trump thing 01:47:08 sad! 01:49:05 i totally don't get that meme 01:49:08 i would like some sort of progression marker for players 01:49:08 i'm not sure how to offer really constructive feedback for this achievement system because i don't really understand what it's trying to achieve 01:49:12 so i'm going to bed 01:49:15 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 48.0.1/20160817112116]] 01:49:18 nn 01:49:30 achievements should be something that is either incidentally acquired via the course of regular (or exceptional) play, or is something that's a true achievement and needs intentional work towards (greatplayer/greatrace). for the most part the tournament banners hit home on this already 01:49:48 perhaps for progression you really just want a progress bar with tick marks for "reach temple, reach lair, get a rune, reach zot, get the orb, win" 01:49:49 silly or counterproductive achievements will cause players to try to do silly/counterproductive things 01:50:29 yeah, chequers, it might be best to work with banners as a model for good cheevos 01:50:39 a scoreboard is already "a history of accomplishments", so that should be kept in mind for any achievement system 01:50:55 not that new ones can't be thought up; that could even inspire futures tournament banners 01:51:01 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:01 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:35 I know there's a table out to brainstorm for 0.19 banners ahead of time instead of 1 week before the tournament starts :) 01:51:35 but "success-oriented" cheevos are probably the best way 01:51:37 I don't think we've left off banners till that late in any recent tourney 01:51:44 give them all clever names and they'll be universally loved 01:51:47 I saw it mentioned recently and am just repeating what I read 01:51:52 at least not since like...0.16 or 0.15 01:51:55 I haven't actually paid attention to crawl development until very recently 01:52:00 "too legit to qaz" 01:52:02 etc 01:52:05 -!- Zxpr1jk has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:52:21 (the pakellas banners were added in the final days, iirc) 01:52:29 "diversify your beogh" 01:52:29 well, not one week before, chequers 01:52:48 its implementation might have come at that time 01:52:52 but in terms of the idea 01:53:09 -!- titanjones has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:53:10 i'll defer to your recall 01:53:11 fr: keep the pak vaults 01:53:12 but yeah, the best achievements are either "you are already doing this" (and are frequently used by devs to track player involvement/engagement) or "you did this great feat, good job!" 01:53:28 and crawl ethos puts another constraint upon that too 01:53:59 my favorite banner is the "don't use scrolls or potions" one 01:54:06 ru reasons... 01:54:16 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:54:21 chequers: yeah pak was just faded altar, which had been thought of well before 01:54:21 lol 01:54:33 thankfully although that one will need retheming, it won't need replacing 01:54:34 anyway, good feedback all 01:54:35 even though pak is gone 01:54:50 banners that aren't for a god?? :O 01:54:59 or were you going to use it for H/U? 01:54:59 hep banner 01:55:07 speaking of the faded altar.....was there anyone other than dpeg who really wanted to make it harder to get J early? 01:55:12 hmmm 01:55:13 faded alters seem sort of "heppy" 01:55:14 -!- Bammboo00 is now known as Bammboo 01:55:21 PF might object though 01:55:30 more heppy than ukky for sure 01:55:33 yeah 01:55:43 I'm not a dev but I don't think jiyva should be an early god except rarely 01:55:56 my reasoning is the same as dpeg's 01:56:07 i guess you meant "shouldn't" then 01:56:11 pepe was better before he was a trump thing 01:56:25 unfortunately it was associated with alt-right idiots long before trump 01:56:26 any uskayaw banner ideas? 01:56:29 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:35 need multi-kill milestones 01:57:09 minmay, associated with social rejects? 01:57:09 lol 01:57:09 Kill a unique with grand finale 01:57:09 thats why we keep using harambe even though harambe is getting stale. harambe is still pure 01:57:11 !tell PleasingFungus How do you feel about moving Pak's banner to Hep? The faded altar seems connected thematically to Hep, and would be an easy switch 01:57:12 gammafunk: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 01:57:27 -!- sysice has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:57:27 harambe is stupid 01:57:32 even the snail meme got picked up by TERFs but the snail meme has no potential anyway so whatever 01:57:43 sorry, "the harambe meme is racist" has been prominent for a while now 01:58:19 do TERFs really exist, i assumed they were just boogeymen for Trump supporters to tell their kids about 01:58:31 yeah they do 01:58:32 I mean like, exist in online reddit communities "exist" 01:58:40 all memes tend towards some ultimate bad end, that's like some kind of thing related to conservation of energy 01:58:46 not "there is one at a university who wrote an article" 01:58:53 there are seven billion people on the planet 01:58:57 every group you can think of exists 01:59:03 gammafunk: all internet usage tends toward a bad end 01:59:16 ...even chei worshipers exist? 01:59:17 the evil sjw beta cuck feminists who want to cut off your penis don't exist 01:59:23 gammafunk, >:( 01:59:29 but TERFs very much do exist 01:59:48 wow I disagree wrt people who want to cut off my penis 02:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:04 i actually fit most of that 02:00:08 lol 02:00:10 i'm evil and a sjw 02:00:17 you are not 02:00:17 gammafunk: I meant, evil sjw beta cuck feminists who want to cut off your penis don't exist *besides me* 02:00:19 and i want to cut off the penis of many people i meet 02:00:20 sjw, I mean 02:00:23 lol 02:00:41 I wonder how much "common knowledge" affects crawl play 02:00:43 my the universe isn't large enough to hold two minmays 02:00:51 s/my/maybe/ 02:01:03 I'm sorry to have started this discussion by inserting a terrible meme into the achievement doc 02:01:05 especially for stuff like "chei is unplayable" or "hexer is best ancestor" that gets repeated a lot 02:01:11 and wholly apologize 02:01:20 the vast majority of crawl players don't participate in irc/tavern 02:01:22 hexer is the best ancestor though 02:01:31 Brannock: one of those is a meme, the other is a true fact about hep #commonknowledge 02:01:36 i mean, is it really a meme if it's not true? 02:01:38 er 02:01:41 if it is true 02:01:53 ??uka 02:01:53 uskayaw[1/5]: God of ecstatic dance. Piety raises very quickly as you deal damage and drops very quickly over time. *: Stomp for AOE damage. **: Teleport through a line of creatures, confusing them. ***: on reaching this piety level, briefly paralyze all enemies in LOS. ****: On reaching this piety level, monsters share damage. *****: Telefrag any monster in LOS. 02:02:00 the meme is properly that "chei makes your character weaker" and it's not a meme 02:02:44 'reach champion piety with 2/4/6 gods in a single game' 02:02:44 challenging... 02:02:44 1/2/3 might be better I think 02:02:44 make the ru challenge an achievement 02:02:47 well there's zin/tso/ely 02:02:49 lets most players get that first tier 02:02:51 and ru, and xom 02:03:03 reaching champion with 1 god is already another banner btw 02:03:07 oh it is 02:03:08 ok then 02:03:17 the crawl community could really use some better memes/injokes tbh 02:03:33 -!- helsbecter has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:03:35 the only one i can think of that isnt gross/sexual is "quite powerful" and it has fallen out of vogue 02:03:45 'quite powerful' was good 02:03:48 ??quite powerful 02:03:48 quite powerful[1/11]: 0.8 mummy 02:03:48 "oka gives shitty gifts" is an ok one 02:03:49 battlemage? 02:04:02 oh, that one is ok too, yeah 02:04:03 -!- Cimanyd has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:04:03 we had "caster nerfs" going for a while 02:04:16 not convinced "oka gives shitty gifts" qualifies 02:04:20 not funny enough 02:04:26 "okawaru's attic" is amusing 02:04:31 somewhat 02:04:39 well, i was implying oka's attic 02:04:47 there are no turncount-milestone banners yet. Something like: reach temple/lair/zot in x/y/z turns 02:04:48 perhaps 02:04:48 but it never really solidified into one single meme 02:04:52 I don't know if Lasty has any ideas for banners for usk 02:04:58 but "okawaru gives bad gifts" is as much a meme as "the h key moves your character to the left" 02:05:06 "uskayaw appreciates those who keep up with the beat" 02:05:16 another possibility is that PF already has an idea for a banner that isn't weird like how fungi are just really weird 02:05:19 chequers, 5.000, 10.000, 50.000? for turncount 02:05:23 and we could move faded altar to usk 02:05:28 "you dance with the gods"? 02:05:41 tenuous connection but it can be made to work in the end 02:05:46 or could swap some other banner 02:05:49 FR: make uska invo titles the names of afrika bambaataa songs 02:06:00 or just get rid of the god-banner relationship 02:06:06 the god-banner thing is just flavor 02:06:12 well, I don't know we're ready to do that quite yet, chequers 02:06:17 I mean it's still early, we could 02:06:27 a lot of them already don't really fit with the god they're associated with anyway 02:06:31 with 25 gods that's a lot of banners 02:06:37 sure, but which do we want to cut 02:06:42 is there a planned month for the tourney? I would like to have another shot at the website UI refresh 02:06:43 why would players play in the tournament at all, if not for the entertainment of the gods 02:06:43 it's more work to do that, just pointing that out 02:06:55 %git 0.18.0 02:06:55 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.18.0: Further manual updates (MarvinPA) 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 11+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bfef9350a2e2 02:07:01 'soon' I'd imagine 02:07:05 see where is this witty, helpful amalloy when you stop paying attention on the orb run? 02:07:11 november? 02:07:17 no where to be found, probably playing some weird roguelike no one's heard of 02:07:39 %git 0.18.0 02:07:39 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.18.0: Further manual updates (MarvinPA) 10(4 months ago, 1 file, 11+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bfef9350a2e2 02:08:18 could be over a month away 02:08:18 i needed my full attention to play MiBe. couldn't afford to watch you 02:08:18 kind of depends on how people feel 02:08:18 with two gods in one release there's time to bake 02:08:18 !lm amalloy 02:08:18 especially since hep is still being balanced 02:08:18 7579. [2016-09-08 04:45:54] amalloy the Slayer (L23 MiBe of Trog) found a slimy rune of Zot on turn 61920. (Slime:5) 02:08:18 oh i didn't think you were that close 02:08:18 !kw t 02:08:18 Built-in: t => start>='2016-05-06 20:00:00' time<'2016-05-22 20:00:00' cv=0.18 explbr= 02:08:19 I was thinking like... nov 02:08:43 maybe nov; there aren't any huge issues holding things up now, exactly 02:08:51 if people wanted to try pak 2.0 02:09:01 I have some small things but absolutely nothing that would hold up a release 02:09:30 ??gammafunk[2 02:09:30 gammafunk[2/5]: Expose you.attack_delay and autopickup menu options in lua 02:09:39 fair enough 02:09:47 if pakellas 2 is actually on the table imo pak should be in 0.19 instead of skipping a release 02:10:05 how do you mean? 02:10:14 a **lot** of players don't play trunk 02:10:17 my secret goal was to integrate tourney scoring into the scoreboard, but that won't happen without a few month's work 02:10:18 !learn set gammafunk[2] TODO (for real): dragon's call cooldown, depths encompass map, some other thing I forgot 02:10:19 gammafunk[2/5]: TODO (for real): dragon's call cooldown, depths encompass map, some other thing I forgot 02:10:32 Brannock: a lot do though 02:10:33 removing pakellas for 6-8 months is a big deal for all the players who play local or webtiles 0.19 02:10:45 -!- warbrain is now known as pottsy 02:10:46 as in, enough do that we can test out any new pak ideas 02:10:55 oh, yeah, my concern isn't with testing 02:10:58 so is publishing a version with a pak that's so busted the devs don't want him in trunk 02:10:58 the issue really isn't at all "but people have to wait" 02:11:07 it's with all the players who play local 02:11:12 I wouldn't support releasing busted pak 02:11:16 that reasoning doesn't make sense, Brannock 02:11:32 if the god is messed up, you disable it, not release it broken or delay the release 02:11:34 -!- helsbecter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:43 like what about people who don't play pak, why do they have to wait to play 0.19 02:12:27 now if we need an extra few weeks or even a month or w/e, that's fine, but a rule of "no pak, no release" isn't necessary 02:12:32 I agree 02:12:44 sorry I think I was a bit absolute with my original statement 02:13:08 I meant if pakellas 2 is actually within a reasonable timeframe it makes sense to wait a little bit to get P into 0.19 instead of delaying it another release 02:13:11 lol, i still have a hard drive with the jester build on it 02:13:12 yeah I think if something is agreed upon, it could happen in 0.19, but MarvinPA didn't sound thrilled with the proposal, for one 02:13:52 i'm not sure any argument about local builds works 02:13:52 I'd be shocked if more than half the crawl playerbase plays online 02:13:52 -!- squidcat has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:13:52 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:14:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 02:14:08 well, there were 3 releases between when i started playing and when i started playing online 02:14:14 that's a year and a half. 02:14:17 but i have no idea if i'm an average user 02:14:18 assuming 6 months on average 02:14:21 we disabled G for a release 02:14:32 0.8-0.11 for reference 02:14:34 G came back in a subsequent one, and people are happy enough with that god now 02:14:44 i would love for crawl offline to include (optional!! of course) analytics 02:14:44 it's more "is someone actually working on this" 02:15:07 even to the extent of optional milestone/logfile upload so you can see how many games are played 02:15:10 I played offline between 0.3 and like, 0.14. most players don't even start online in the first place. the vast majority of players (for all games, not just roguelikes) don't discuss or participate in the community, they just download and play and go along their lives 02:15:30 gozag was one of the best instances of turning something from "why?" to "wow" 02:15:31 imo 02:15:57 MPA's concern with PF's proposal is that the god's focus is still very narrow 02:16:04 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:10 what was the other thing he mentioned... 02:16:36