00:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:16 -!- qguv has quit [Quit: bye] 00:01:47 -!- adibis has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:22 looks like 40 pow confusion is currently 24 turns 00:04:52 oh, hm 00:05:32 no, that's just hexer 00:05:36 there doesn't seem to be a stepdown here. 00:09:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:09:52 ah, it's applied later 00:11:10 (to hex resist chance, not to hex dur) 00:19:32 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:21:36 New branch created: stepdown_ench (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/stepdown_ench 00:21:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[stepdown_ench] * 0.19-a0-1112-g66e51c1: Add more wizmode info about hex power 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 17+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/66e51c14a3f8 00:21:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[stepdown_ench] * 0.19-a0-1113-gaed18fc: Don't list hex %s for friends' spells 10(2 months ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aed18fcb5788 00:21:36 03PleasingFungus02 07[stepdown_ench] * 0.19-a0-1114-gdb1de2a: Apply a stepdown to para/conf ench dur 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db1de2a783bf 00:21:39 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 00:21:45 oops 00:22:10 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1112-g66e51c1: Add more wizmode info about hex power 10(16 minutes ago, 1 file, 17+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/66e51c14a3f8 00:22:10 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1113-gaed18fc: Don't list hex %s for friends' spells 10(2 months ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aed18fcb5788 00:22:15 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:23 -!- Findleman has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:29:32 -!- Cerepol has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31:49 -!- Bammboo has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:49 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:17 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:53:13 -!- JimmahDean has quit [] 00:53:29 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:13 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:55:23 bool finalAnswer = false; // as in: "Is that your...?" 01:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:46 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:08:57 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:09:14 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:31 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:09:33 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1113-gaed18fc (34) 01:11:16 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:11:47 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:53 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 01:16:20 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:21 The build passed. (stepdown_ench - db1de2a #6321 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/151408236 01:16:21 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 01:16:51 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:15 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest12133 01:20:28 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:32 -!- Guest12133 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:25:19 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:26:48 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:38:04 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:38:27 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:09 -!- squidcat has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:40:21 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:41:11 -!- omnirizon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:21 -!- elan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:47:29 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:39 -!- woodjrx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:48:40 -!- Elsi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:49:12 -!- Elsi has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:25 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:45 -!- arcanemastermind has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10:45 PleasingFungus, is there any way to move my spell library patch forward or am I just screwed until dpeg resurfaces? (not to sound impatient, I want to know if I should implement autopickup adding to library or wait for more discussion). 02:11:31 i mean, i feel like it's the sort of thing that he should get the chance to comment on, even if he's been gone for a while 02:11:32 idk 02:11:36 !seen dpeg 02:11:36 I last saw dpeg at Tue Jul 19 00:26:14 2016 UTC (3w 2d 5h 45m 22s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Lost terminal'. 02:11:53 let me sleep on it and i'll give you a better answer. 02:11:58 That's fine then. 02:12:15 might have better luck finding him on c-r-d? 02:12:18 which may be 'yes, you'll have to wait', but i need to think about it 02:12:27 doy: funny story... 02:12:34 I mean I mostly want more discussion 02:12:36 xor's email on crd is currently pending moderation 02:12:42 by dpeg D: 02:12:47 haha 02:13:05 email about what? 02:13:19 spell library 02:13:22 k 02:13:56 How it should differ from my PR / if it should be there / if it is there, how does it interact with Trog? 02:15:29 PleasingFungus, don't worry about sleeping on it, I feel like not waiting would be poorly received, I just wish someone else had c-r-d access. 02:17:07 i feel like someone did 02:17:08 i wonder who 02:17:45 https://sourceforge.net/p/crawl-ref/_members/ 02:17:55 suggests that |amethyst should be able to moderate the list 02:18:11 heh, i'm not even a dev. sad! 02:18:19 rip credibility 02:18:24 anyway, could send |amethyst a !tell and see if i'm right 02:19:18 !tell |amethyst PleasingFungus found evidence that you may be able to moderate the c-r-d list, could you approve my spell library post if so? 02:19:18 xorxor: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 02:19:36 might be reasonable to add a few more admins too 02:19:44 getting thin on active ones 02:20:38 !seen dpeg_ 02:20:38 I last saw dpeg_ at Sun Jul 10 08:53:49 2016 UTC (4w 3d 21h 26m 48s ago) joining the channel. 02:20:50 he never left! :) 02:21:26 2spoopy 02:24:12 PleasingFungus: is this confirmed bug? 10590 02:24:28 or intended? 02:24:37 !bug 10590 02:24:37 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10590 02:24:44 not intended 02:24:51 i couldn't reproduce it, iirc 02:25:00 !source ng-wanderer.cc 02:25:01 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/ng-wanderer.cc 02:25:15 !source newgame_make_item 02:25:15 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc#L95 02:25:19 ^ these two links are probably a decent start 02:25:29 alright - let me see. 02:25:31 thanks 02:28:43 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:29:13 PleasingFungus: doesn't look like it can happen. I suspect the starting square had needles on the map. 02:29:24 PleasingFungus: the function to give needles also gives blowgun 02:30:26 my suspicion was that the newgame_make_item() function was deciding not to actually give the blowgun, for whatever reason 02:30:32 it's a more complex function than the name makes it sound 02:30:45 i made some kind of -wn the other day and started with a +0 shortbow, 27 arrows, a +2 blowgun, and one single curare needle 02:30:48 no other needles 02:32:32 that's allowed 02:32:41 1 + random2(4) curare 02:33:00 use it wisely :) 02:33:05 i'd just never seen it before and thought it was funny 02:33:10 also funny that i got 0 poison needles 02:33:34 as i recall i got murdered before i made the tough decision to use my curare =p 02:33:42 you only get poison needles or curare 02:33:44 not both 02:33:46 as a wanderer, anyway 02:35:19 oh 02:35:44 god, i cannot figure out how this stupid hexer thing happens 02:36:54 ...uh... 02:36:55 libc++abi.dylib: terminating with uncaught exception of type std::bad_alloc: std::bad_alloc 02:36:58 i'm scared 02:37:22 argh - I think I know what might be happening. 02:37:27 adibis: !? 02:37:31 i was stumped by that bug 02:38:31 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:38:41 oh good, i can repro this on master 02:38:43 how nice 02:40:55 PleasingFungus: you call give_decent_items and in there you call give_wanderer_weaspon 02:41:28 the case statement breaks whenever you assign first weapon 02:42:22 I think it was called twice as expected but both times SK_SHORT_BLADES won 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1114-g1100988: Pull _find_spell_prospect() from handle_mon_spell 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 87+ 68-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/11009884b763 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1115-g49a6453: Pull _should_cast_spell() from handle_mon_spell 10(75 minutes ago, 1 file, 60+ 51-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/49a645383746 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1116-ged4d5f2: Simplify Ru spellcasting interruption code 10(56 minutes ago, 1 file, 15+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed4d5f264c1c 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1117-gbd03ef8: Fix a Ru redirection bug 10(52 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd03ef8ca24b 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1118-gb56ba22: Call _ms_waste_of_time() earlier 10(45 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b56ba22975c3 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1119-g186b8d8: Constify hspell_pass. 10(40 minutes ago, 1 file, 27+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/186b8d809484 02:42:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1120-g42b7146: Pull _choose_spell_to_cast from handle_mons_spell 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 160+ 166-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42b71463b6e7 02:42:34 because of cosstraining with long blades. 02:42:43 and the function returned on the first break statement 02:43:11 adibis: crosstraining isn't relevant 02:43:20 you.skills[i] is a raw skill value, without crosstraining 02:43:28 okay 02:43:36 in that case the log you linked has 0 short blades training 02:43:41 there's nothing preventing it from choosing the same skill twice, though. 02:43:43 and still has a dagger and short_sword 02:43:58 that char has 1 long blades 02:44:07 then the char shouldn't even have a dagger. 02:44:13 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:17 the problem with that log is it's from 400 turns in 02:44:26 could easily have dropped its starting weapon... 02:44:40 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:44:57 worse - that char started with a +0 club 02:45:04 -!- Yermak has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:16 oh, that's in the notes now! 02:45:18 awesome 02:45:32 0 mace and flail - something is wrong lol 02:45:51 _wanderer_cover_equip_holes() is giving the club 02:46:13 because, for some reason, there's nothing in the weapon slot 02:46:32 then, i think, the dagger is given out for stealth skill lower in that function 02:46:37 oh 02:46:40 it looks like you were right, though 02:46:46 he didn't actually start with needles. 02:47:19 h r m 02:47:58 her royal majesty won't help you now 02:48:10 !lg prozacelf huwn killer=bat turns=485 02:48:12 1. ProzacElf the Charmwright (L2 HuWn), slain by a bat on D:1 on 2016-08-01 21:06:23, with 13 points after 485 turns and 0:02:17. 02:48:42 huh? 02:48:47 !lg prozacelf huwn killer=bat turns=485 -tv:<5:x0.2 02:48:48 1. ProzacElf, XL2 HuWn, T:485 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org. 02:49:03 hm, 0.2 may have been a little slow 02:49:20 yep, no needles in invenotyr 02:49:46 and there's the needles 02:50:02 !lg prozacelf huwn 02:50:03 44. ProzacElf the Covered (L2 HuWn), slain by an ooze on D:2 on 2016-08-07 19:16:48, with 13 points after 635 turns and 0:01:27. 02:50:16 !lg prozacelf huwn -5 02:50:17 40/44. ProzacElf the Covered (L4 HuWn), slain by an orc priest (a +0 war axe) on D:3 on 2016-07-31 06:17:44, with 87 points after 2619 turns and 0:04:35. 02:50:22 !lg prozacelf huwn -4 02:50:23 41/44. ProzacElf the Chopper (L2 HuWn), slain by a hobgoblin (a +0 club) on D:1 on 2016-07-31 19:06:03, with 14 points after 765 turns and 0:02:47. 02:50:24 !lg prozacelf huwn -3 02:50:25 42/44. ProzacElf the Charmwright (L2 HuWn), slain by a bat on D:1 on 2016-08-01 21:06:23, with 13 points after 485 turns and 0:02:17. 02:50:28 !lg prozacelf huwn -2 02:50:29 43/44. ProzacElf the Archer (L9 HuWn of Uskayaw), slain by a hill giant (a +0 giant spiked club) on D:7 on 2016-08-03 08:04:47, with 2230 points after 8872 turns and 0:20:00. 02:50:45 yeah, it's gotta be that 02:50:56 !nuke 02:50:57 FooTV playlist clear requested by *. 02:51:01 heh 02:51:06 why are you searching through my huwn? 02:51:14 we're stalking you 02:51:17 !bug 10590 02:51:17 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10590 02:51:25 ^ was double-checking to make sure it couldn't have been some other huwn 02:51:28 oh 02:51:29 hahaha 02:51:29 but there's no other ones on the right day 02:51:41 i forgot i did that 02:51:45 er posted it 02:51:47 you wasted like half a man-hour of development. i hope you're happy!!! 02:52:06 wooohoo! 02:52:14 hahaha 02:52:14 :P 02:52:46 well, thanks to you pointing out that the log contains the starting items for a wn, we've successfully closed that bug. 02:53:50 at least that's half a man-hour of development the game will never get back =p 02:57:34 heh - now looking at the friendly battlesphere bug. 09732. Don't think I will have th energy to do anything tonight though :( 02:57:53 which also means I should not be playing more DCSS tonight and dying. 02:58:02 haha 02:58:03 probably! 02:58:12 have an awesome char going 02:58:14 &dump 02:58:15 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/adibis/adibis.txt 02:58:23 very nice, very nice 02:58:59 if you really want to save me some heartache and give yourself a migraine, look into bug 10504 02:59:09 that was my project for tonight, but i failed to find even a single clue 02:59:10 it's baffling 02:59:30 -!- Cimanyd has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:22 O.o 03:00:38 10504/7236, which i think are both the same bug 03:00:49 so need to apply same checks to the ancestor as we do for players 03:00:52 note that 7236 dates to at least three years ago 03:00:53 ? 03:01:14 if I as a player try to cast and an ally is in the way game asks me to confirm 03:01:22 oh 03:01:25 we need to do the same checks when hep ally is doing it 03:01:26 the thing is, they do have that check 03:01:29 all monsters do 03:01:34 and it works, most of the time 03:01:35 !bug 10504 03:01:36 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10504 03:02:04 oh hey i got that one earlier today 03:02:07 !source mons_should_fire 03:02:07 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc#L3478 03:02:10 ^ relevant 03:02:26 of course, to understand that, you have to understand how friend_info is set, and whether there's anything else going on... 03:02:33 hmm 03:03:05 my best guess is that there's something not being initialized properly 03:03:14 I have seen two cases of this and they were both in situations where the player was adjacent to a piece of terrain that you can see through but have trouble chucking stuff through 03:03:41 i got sent http://i.imgur.com/Jd7zHWs.png yesterday 03:03:47 but I don't see how that would affect it 03:03:52 which doesn't seem to match that pattern, if i'm parsing it correctly (is the player a *?) 03:04:09 yes 03:04:21 idk, maybe the hexer had enough energy to move right after casting... 03:04:29 and its beside a P, which is a plant 03:04:52 yeah, but there's no path from the hexer to the porcupine that goes through a plant 03:05:15 yeah, I'm probably off. Just trying to maybe throw you a bone 03:05:21 i think i've seen the earlier instance before 03:05:35 but i've never seen the hep ancestor hit me trying to hit something else 03:05:46 !source find_ray 03:05:47 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/los.cc#L618 03:05:50 !source fallback_ray 03:05:50 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/los.cc#L681 03:05:56 similarly I've seen Dowan try to cast a spell through Duvessa 03:06:11 and, of course, the ogre mage banishing an ally 03:06:13 the most tragic bug.... 03:06:14 which i have seen before myself 03:06:17 funny as heck imo 03:06:22 agreed 03:07:05 i'm... hrm 03:07:11 and of course panlords and stormcallers are perfectly happy to annihlate hordes of their buddies just to catch you at the edge of their firestorm 03:07:17 is foe_info.count==0 true? nvm I am just throwing bad ideas. 03:07:40 ProzacElf: that is a feature 03:07:42 well 03:07:44 stormcallers aren't (rip) 03:07:47 *annihilate 03:07:55 oh, i thought i hadn't seen one of them for a while 03:07:56 but firestorm is special cased to make monsters more willing to hit allies with it 03:08:27 does nem still give pentagram cards? 03:08:41 PleasingFungus: is line 3531 the reason? 03:08:49 3531 of? 03:08:52 because wondering if one of your buddy panlords might drop a firestorm on you was always fun 03:08:54 mon-util 03:09:01 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1120-g42b7146 (34) 03:09:05 to check is it's a minor annoyance 03:09:13 low collateral 03:09:35 sort of? 03:09:37 I don't know where most of the things are set yet - I am tracing the code but that might take a while 03:09:46 the relevant code is some of the hairiest code in crawl 03:09:50 i was untangling a little of it earlier tonight 03:09:51 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:09:55 but beam.cc has a reputation for a reason 03:10:22 not just beam.cc, but the parts of beam.cc that interact with monster ai 03:10:28 well - a hack would be to return false whenever it's a bad hex 03:10:34 there is already code to check good hex 03:10:34 uh 03:10:38 like beam.cc ever broke anything in the past! =p 03:10:38 what? 03:11:01 we check if_mons_should_fire_beneficial 03:11:17 so monsters should never cast harmful hexes? 03:11:34 i mean, we wouldn't have this bug if we removed banishment, confusion, paralysis &c from all monsters, it's true... 03:11:41 lol 03:11:56 as an aside, is the hexer ancestor special cased to never have its mass confusion affect the player? 03:11:59 I meant at the end where it checks collateral damage 03:12:03 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1120-g42b7146 (34) 03:12:08 if player is not in the way collateral damage is zero anyway 03:12:10 i believe all monsters never affect allies with mass confusion 03:12:18 i didn't have to touch anything with that spell for the branch 03:12:19 if it's non-zero then we can exclude confuse, para, etc 03:12:28 that makes sense. i had never cast it with an ally around 03:12:33 back when it was a player spell 03:12:38 i'm not sure if player confusion worked the same way 03:12:41 wouldn't be surprised if it didn't 03:13:05 well, you know what, i probably did use it with allies way back in the day 03:13:15 since i'd pretty frequently do vpen^kiku 03:13:23 i almost certainly had mass confuse and zombies at some point 03:13:54 adibis: well, a hex (of the kind we're talking about) should only hit one target, so either foe_info or friend_info should be zero. 03:14:10 not that it matters much for the current regime 03:14:19 whether or not player mass confuse worked on allies 03:15:10 i mean, it's possible that something there is bugged, but that in itself would call into question the soundness of the beam: if it returns nonzero foe_info.power/count even when the hex goes through you, who's to say that friend_info.power/count is nonzero in that case? 03:15:24 honestly, it seems more reasonable to assume that friend_info.power *is* zero for the tracers we're talking about 03:15:29 @??porcupine 03:15:29 porcupine (02r) | Spd: 12 | HD: 4 | HP: 13-19 | AC/EV: 2/12 08(spiny 5d4) | Dam: 16 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 141 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 03:15:58 hd 4, vs an xl 13 player; it'd have to be closer to the other way around for an ally to think it was worthwhile to cast through the player, even if it could. 03:16:36 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:16:37 some background. the way that many monster spells work is as follows: first, the monster sets up a beam, which contains all the info necessary to execute the spell. then the monster sets is_tracer on the beam and fires it, and checks the results to see if it's wise to fire a beam with is_tracer = false. 03:17:06 no hexes actually function as bolts do they? 03:17:16 i.e., are able to fire through their first target 03:17:19 there are no penetrating hexes, no 03:17:29 with i guess the exception of a player with fedhas 03:17:31 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:17:33 enhh 03:17:34 shooting through a plant 03:17:38 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:46 which i think works? 03:17:57 i've done spen^fed and i think it worked 03:18:02 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest84479 03:18:08 but that shouldn't touch the relevant parts of the code anyway 03:18:11 does this always happen when the player is exactly between ancestor and monster? 03:18:13 it's closer than you'd think 03:18:16 since there's no reason to run the monster checks 03:18:24 no gap, straight line 03:18:29 not always straight line 03:18:37 as i noted in one of the bugs, i've seen it reported with a sort of knights-move shape 03:18:52 but i don't think i've seen it reported with a gap 03:19:36 my best guess is that in this bug, the tracer ends up somehow missing the player - either by rolling too low on its to-hit, which absolutely should not happen for several reasons, or by choosing a different path to the target for the tracer than from the final beam. 03:19:48 alternately, maybe it's just skipping over the first tile it encounters, for some godforsaken reason. 03:19:57 but none of this is happening consistently. 03:20:53 is the monster as fast as the player? Is it possible the monster calculated this off tracer, fired, player being faster moved in the way? 03:21:05 firing a beam does not take time. 03:21:19 nothing happens in-between firing the tracer and firing the actual beam. 03:21:22 so calculation is done in the aut when monster fires? 03:21:27 okay 03:21:36 !source mon-cast.cc 03:21:36 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc 03:22:00 !source mon-cast.cc:3589 03:22:00 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc#L3589 03:22:08 ^ fires the tracer in this function 03:22:17 !source mon-cast.cc:3642 03:22:17 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc#L3642 03:22:22 ^ fires the actual beam in here 03:23:09 -!- Guest84479 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:24:37 I was looking at set_hex_target 03:25:12 oh, that's a red herring, i think 03:25:23 that is very specifically used for SPELL_ENSLAVEMENT 03:25:28 monsters with a wand of enslavement 03:25:40 which isn't what we're talking about here 03:25:58 it's named that way because it uses something called ENCH_HEXED? still not a great name 03:26:58 wow, this beam regress code is sketchy as heck 03:27:00 wow 03:27:24 ? 03:27:28 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:27:56 about ENCH_HEXED 03:28:16 ench_hexed is "a friendly monster that's been enslaved by an enemy" 03:28:21 it's a very, very niche effect 03:28:41 was created for anubis guards, when they had control undead 03:28:47 @??anubis guard 03:28:47 anubis guard (10H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 43-59 | AC/EV: 5/13 | Dam: 30, 2013(drain) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(40), 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy | XP: 646 | Sp: warning cry [11!AM, 08breath], b.draining (3d17) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], dispel undead (3d16) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 03:28:56 don't think that ever made it into a release 03:30:06 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:31:35 hmm - also does this only happen for confuse? 03:31:55 or also with en.hibernation? 03:32:08 i haven't seen any report for paralyse, though that might just be because paralyse shows up later for hexers 03:32:26 only player ghosts cast en. hibernation - way too rare to encounter this bug 03:32:44 if this is the same bug as the banish thing, then we've seen reports of confusion and of banishment 03:33:58 -!- Homage_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]] 03:34:07 okay - anyway. Tonight I leave you with the bug. Need to sleep. Work early morning 03:34:32 haha 03:34:35 sorry for keeping you up! 03:34:44 ty for thinking about it, anyway 03:34:58 i've had this one on my plate for months - no reason to expect to solve it tonight :) 03:35:11 no worries. Work has been boring these days anyway. Good brainstorming is nice once in a while. 03:35:19 good night! 03:35:21 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]] 03:35:25 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:39 -!- PElf has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:43 -!- Zymurgist has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:56:36 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:33 -!- Jafet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06:53 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:15:11 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:01 -!- Doesnty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:48 -!- FunkyGnoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:01 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:27:28 -!- sjl has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:34:05 -!- Xenobreeder has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:25 -!- arcanemastermind has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:50:43 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:24 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:07:33 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:12:35 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:13:45 -!- vale_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:27 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:51 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest71735 05:21:25 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:24:03 -!- Guest71735 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:29:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 05:40:58 -!- } has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:41:26 -!- PElf has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 05:44:16 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:50:32 -!- joy19999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:12 -!- xnavy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:03:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:19:39 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:36 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:36:01 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:36:43 -!- edsrzf has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:42:43 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 06:50:40 -!- joy1999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:34 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:26 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:03 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:26 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest51698 07:20:23 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:23:54 The ironbrand convoker gestures at you while chanting. 07:23:55 You feel very mighty all of a sudden. 07:23:58 lol? 07:24:19 -!- Guest51698 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:26:09 -!- Bcadren has quit [Quit: For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.] 07:26:11 <|amethyst> were you invisible? 07:26:11 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:26:50 <|amethyst> !tell xorxor if someone can tell me *how* to moderate c-r-d, sure... otherwise, see if you can contact dpeg, because he knows how to do it 07:26:50 |amethyst: OK, I'll let xorxor know. 07:27:29 no... 07:27:48 I think I got randomly hasted by something at one point too 07:27:51 not sure though 07:27:57 <|amethyst> hm, that sounds like the tracer and the actual beam for some reason took different paths 07:28:11 <|amethyst> the tracer hit its friend, or it wouldn't have tried casting 07:28:30 well it seems like a fun feature 07:28:31 <|amethyst> (unless it's an allied convoker, but I assume not or you wouldn't have loled) 07:28:41 it wasn't 07:28:46 <|amethyst> I think "bug" is the word you're looking for :) 07:28:56 <|amethyst> Though I'm going to start using "fun feature" instead of "bug" now 07:29:22 can allied convokers even might you? 07:29:34 I've never tried 07:29:51 <|amethyst> hm 07:29:56 can allies with haste other haste you then? 07:29:56 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:25 I thought there was something about that so they only haste other allies, like your summons 07:30:33 <|amethyst> ah, yes 07:30:56 <|amethyst> those spells use _set_allied_target, which only consider monsters 07:31:02 same with might I'm guessing 07:31:06 yeah 07:31:18 otherwise yred abuse :P 07:32:33 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:39 <|amethyst> probably only Might Other and Heal Other would be usefully abusable 07:36:23 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:36:47 <|amethyst> Haste Other and Invisibility Other would be extremely dangerous, since monsters don't know about contam :) 07:37:56 true 07:38:42 -!- } has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:45:07 what are the old 0.5 species DS and DG? 07:45:25 <|amethyst> Same as current ones, with different capitalization 07:45:29 ez 07:48:04 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:40 The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange butts. 07:49:40 You feel yourself speed up. 07:49:42 ah 07:49:46 it was the ogre mage 07:50:35 -!- joy19999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:52 seems to be happening fairly often 07:56:39 maybe it's a new bug 07:58:00 -!- debo has quit [Quit: orb spiders :(] 08:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:07 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:01:07 <|amethyst> or an old bug returned 08:01:52 <|amethyst> I remember that we used to get a lot of reports of monster blasting their allies 08:02:02 <|amethyst> err 08:02:07 <|amethyst> s/blasting/hexing/ 08:02:33 <|amethyst> I wonder if something is making the tracer, or the actual beam, not be always-hit 08:02:50 <|amethyst> (for enchantments) 08:03:07 <|amethyst> so that it's either targetting an ally behind you and being told "that might work" by a bad tracer; 08:03:27 <|amethyst> or targetting an ally in front of you, and then the spell misses even though enchantments should never miss 08:04:40 <|amethyst> let me see if _set_allied_target has changed recently 08:06:14 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:06:19 <|amethyst> hm, it has not 08:07:59 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:17:17 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:03 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 08:22:09 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:22:17 -!- doll has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:23:15 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:26:45 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:41:39 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:18 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:50:42 -!- joy1999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:14 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:01 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:08:04 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:40 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:15 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:06 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:49 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:22:12 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:26:06 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:26:34 -!- Tiltorax has quit [*.net *.split] 09:26:34 -!- Yermak has quit [*.net *.split] 09:26:34 -!- koboldina has quit [*.net *.split] 09:26:34 -!- Luterac has quit [*.net *.split] 09:26:34 -!- glosham has quit [*.net *.split] 09:26:34 -!- mibe has quit [*.net *.split] 09:36:02 -!- scummos| has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:39:14 -!- Nomi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:14 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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11:34:22 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:52 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:41:11 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:52 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:08 -!- joy19999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:32 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:06 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:22 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:11:43 -!- jopi is now known as tiltora 12:11:48 -!- tiltora is now known as tiltorax 12:12:10 ah ha 12:13:32 oh ho 12:15:26 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1121-g018f5a5: Fix mons buff targetting (10604) 10(31 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/018f5a5aba62 12:15:31 fuck 12:15:31 wrong bug # 12:21:16 seems like blink is definitely getting cast more often, which i assume is a spl_selfench issue, but i'm not sure why 12:22:09 also 12:22:32 !source mon-cast.cc:3321 12:22:33 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc#L3321 12:22:39 MarvinPA: have you seen this ^ 12:24:40 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:04 -!- Kranix has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:32:44 -!- smee has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:35:23 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1122-g39308c2: Fix self-ench spam (10608) 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/39308c2b7ff6 12:38:30 -!- crate has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 12:40:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1122-g39308c2 (34) 12:42:53 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:12 -!- joy1999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:42 i fought some deep elf archers last night, and they seemed to be blinking a lot, but not more than they ahve previously - they just always blinked a lot 12:51:43 -!- not_robot has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:52:20 i tested with a goblin with a weight 1 blink 12:52:28 it actually was broken, assuming you played the latest build 12:52:47 since i accidentally broke the logic earlier last night 12:53:44 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-1122-g39308c2 (34) 12:54:00 i've definitely learned a lot about how monsters choose spells. still no clue about that dang ally-hex bug, though 12:54:32 -!- sjl has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:21 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:32 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:02 -!- joy1999 has quit [Quit: Http://www.ZeroIRC.NET Zero IRC Ver 2.9G] 12:59:54 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:03:00 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 13:08:56 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scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:23 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:58 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:36 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:21 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:48 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:24 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:01 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:39 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:14 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:35 PleasingFungus: wow no 14:04:38 that's terrible 14:04:54 i love that it's not even all monsters that worship tso 14:04:58 just, specifically, daevas 14:05:27 -!- whig has left ##crawl-dev 14:05:30 yes :( 14:05:40 what's terrible about daevas 14:06:05 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:32 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:37 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:51 %git e94caba86 14:06:51 07dolorous02 * 0.4-a0-2999-ge94caba: Disallow unchivalric spell attacks from daevas. 10(8 years ago, 2 files, 21+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e94caba86d3b 14:07:16 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:31 Lightli: angels can perform unchivalric attacks, apparently 14:07:34 but not daevas 14:07:50 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:29 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:04 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:28 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:09:44 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:50 so daevas will refuse to stab you in the face while you sleep 14:09:55 but seraphs are just fine with it 14:10:11 and regular angels 14:10:13 and cherubs 14:10:15 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:34 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10:50 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:10 -!- FunkyBomb has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 14:11:27 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1123-g80501f5: Make Hep give innate frail 1 10(15 hours ago, 5 files, 44+ 23-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/80501f5a4e5c 14:11:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1124-g3d89a69: Reword spellbook filtering description 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3d89a69ba1ed 14:11:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1125-g0365730: Changelog through 0.19-a0-1124-g3d89a69 10(10 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/036573052ff1 14:11:45 apparently! 14:11:51 hm 14:11:54 forgot to mention frail in the changelog 14:12:05 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:41 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:14 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:29 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:52 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:29 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:03 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:44 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:17 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:53 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:30 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:11 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:40 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:20 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:57 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:31 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:24 03MarvinPA02 {GitHub} 07* 0.19-a0-1126-g0490cf6: Fix bracing 10(7 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0490cf642b4d 14:21:43 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:23 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:53 oops 14:24:06 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:44 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:48 a terrible crime 14:24:52 the worst! 14:24:56 did you see branch stepdown_ench? 14:25:19 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:26:00 i caught some of the discussion on it earlier/yesterday/whenever it was but haven't looked into it really 14:26:22 %git stepdown_ench 14:26:22 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1114-gdb1de2a: Apply a stepdown to para/conf ench dur 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db1de2a783bf 14:26:36 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:36 commit description has the whole thing, i think 14:27:13 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:43 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:06 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:19 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:58 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:15 looks reasonable at a glance, although that doesn't seem like how confusion has worked in my experience 14:29:35 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:37 it's pretty trivial to test 14:29:41 although i could be misremembering since i guess usually as soon as you get relatively high power you're killing everything pretty fast as soon as it succeeds once 14:29:46 yeah 14:30:07 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:08 probably just thinking of it at low power 14:30:36 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:30:43 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:22 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:57 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:32 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:08 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:45 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:28 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:57 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:10 -!- xyblor has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:35:37 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:09 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:51 -!- scummos| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:31 -!- scummos| has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:01 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:38:04 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:34 -!- flappity has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 14:39:47 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:26 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:11 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:34 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:47 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:33 pf: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/4x7d2h/yasd_dont_take_ood_and_hepliaklqana_in_the_same/ 14:43:49 brutal 14:44:21 i found ancestor pretty effective for ae, honestly 14:44:24 but i wasn't using iood 14:44:35 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:44 hmm, can the bots look up ancestors 14:44:46 @??ancestor 14:44:47 ancestor (11R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 4 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors, see invisible, fly, regen, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(6), 05fire, 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 1 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 14:44:50 nice. 14:45:04 @??battlemage 14:45:04 battlemage (11R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 8 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible, fly, regen, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(6), 05fire, 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 1 | Sp: throw frost (3d5), stone arrow (3d6) | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 14:45:12 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:32 note that some of that is wrong 14:46:35 notably hp 14:46:47 @??battlemage hd:9 14:46:47 battlemage (11R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 24 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible, fly, regen, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(60), 05fire, 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 19 | Sp: throw frost (3d6), stone arrow (3d12) | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 14:46:53 i think the rest is probably right 14:49:27 -!- Jafet has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:58 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1126-g0490cf6 (34) 15:19:41 -!- Lasty_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:14 -!- arcanemastermind has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:56 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]] 15:30:59 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:15 -!- FunkyBomb has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 15:34:32 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:31 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:50 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 15:43:04 -!- debo has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:44:09 -!- Chase has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44:32 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:44 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:50 -!- edsrzf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:23 -!- Zxpr1jk has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:11 -!- demok has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:40 -!- demok has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:41 -!- LexAckson__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:46 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 16:08:14 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09:24 -!- Bcadren has quit [Quit: It's a dud! 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[Client Quit] 17:50:04 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:45 -!- Dracunos7 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:37 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:54:49 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:54 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:57:09 -!- Lasty_ has left ##crawl-dev 17:58:25 -!- duralumin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:13 -!- cmcbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:16 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19-a0-1126-g0490cf6 (34) 18:07:31 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:28 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:23 -!- jehoesefat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:16 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:45 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 18:30:20 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 18:31:24 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:26 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:32:13 !cmd !lairendkills !lg * title:"Lair End kills ($*)" $* lair-end s=kmap 18:32:13 Defined command: !lairendkills => !lg * title:"Lair End kills ($*)" $* lair-end s=kmap 18:32:18 !cmd -rm .lairendkills 18:32:18 Deleted command: .lairendkills => !lg * ((cv<0.19 lair:8 || lair:6)) title:"Lair End kills ($*)" $* lair-end s=kmap 18:33:02 !lairendkills lairtemple 18:33:03 Lair End kills (lairtemple): 27x evil_forest, 26x gammafunk_lair_ancient_temple, 13x evilmike_catoblepas_cave, 11x grunt_lair_end_beastmaster, 11x minmay_lair_end_frog_pond, 10x hangedman_lair_tendril_chambers, 8x guppyfry_lair_end_dragon, 8x wormcave, 7x hangedman_lair_in_review, 6x minmay_lair_end_enchanted_forest 18:33:20 !lg * current trunk kmap=evil_forest s=killer% 18:33:27 134 games for * (current trunk kmap=evil_forest): 23x a sun demon (17.16%), 19x a dire elephant (14.18%), 15x an ice devil (11.19%), 11x a hell beast (8.21%), 9x a smoke demon (6.72%), 9x a red devil (6.72%), 7x a seven-headed hydra (5.22%), 5x a sixfirhy (3.73%), 4x an orange demon (2.99%), 4x a six-headed hydra (2.99%), 4x an eight-headed hydra (2.99%), 3x a hellwing (2.24%), 3x a four-headed hy... 18:33:36 !lg * current trunk kmap~~ancient_temple s=killer% 18:33:42 26 games for * (current trunk kmap~~ancient_temple): 6x a dire elephant (23.08%), 3x a sea snake (11.54%), 3x a wind drake (11.54%), 2x a komodo dragon (7.69%), 2x a five-headed hydra (7.69%), 2x a rime drake (7.69%), 2x an eight-headed hydra (7.69%), a wasp (3.85%), a spiny frog (3.85%), a polar bear (3.85%), a seven-headed hydra (3.85%), a harpy (3.85%), a four-headed hydra (3.85%) 18:33:57 dire... 18:34:00 !lg * current trunk kmap~~ancient_temple s=ckiller% 18:34:05 yeah, dire elephants good 18:34:05 26 games for * (current trunk kmap~~ancient_temple): 6x a hydra (23.08%), 6x a dire elephant (23.08%), 3x a sea snake (11.54%), 3x a wind drake (11.54%), 2x a rime drake (7.69%), 2x a komodo dragon (7.69%), a harpy (3.85%), a spiny frog (3.85%), a polar bear (3.85%), a wasp (3.85%) 18:34:09 !lg * current trunk kmap=evil_forest s=ckiller% 18:34:14 134 games for * (current trunk kmap=evil_forest): 23x a sun demon (17.16%), 22x a hydra (16.42%), 19x a dire elephant (14.18%), 15x an ice devil (11.19%), 11x a hell beast (8.21%), 9x a red devil (6.72%), 9x a smoke demon (6.72%), 5x a sixfirhy (3.73%), 4x an orange demon (2.99%), 3x a hellwing (2.24%), 2x a boulder beetle (1.49%), 2x a spiny frog (1.49%), 2x a death yak (1.49%), a hippogriff (0.7... 18:34:22 I had the lead over evil forest for a while, but it's back on top 18:34:31 sun demons + dire elephants too stronk 18:35:34 I guess the difference really just come down to sun demons, since the two maps place the similar numbers of hydra/dire elephants 18:35:39 on average, at least 18:37:30 jw: can you still hit things outside of LoS with tornado if you reduce LoS by a lot 18:38:18 !seen xorxor 18:38:18 I last saw xorxor at Thu Aug 11 06:20:49 2016 UTC (16h 17m 28s ago) saying 'he never left! :)' on ##crawl-dev. 18:44:39 !tell xorxor had some thoughts about libraries and book goldification, hit me up when you're around 18:44:40 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let xorxor know. 18:48:37 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:37 -!- fufumann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:55:53 Did you see the monsters hasting/mighting me bug? 18:56:25 even better, i fixed it 18:56:30 nice 18:56:35 i also created it 18:56:41 but not in that order 18:56:43 heh 18:56:54 that was a pretty fun feature 18:56:57 !lg 18:56:58 968. Kramin the Meteorologist (L27 TeAE of Vehumet), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2016-08-11 14:30:46, with 1638664 points after 77713 turns and 6:29:14. 18:57:01 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 18:57:04 may have helped me win 18:57:18 PleasingFungus: Did you have any luck with 10504? 18:57:26 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 18:57:32 !bug 10504 18:57:32 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10504 18:57:36 no 18:57:47 sadly 18:57:50 someday... 18:57:59 haha 18:58:12 that's a good one 18:58:44 lots of fun features to remove! 18:59:13 i do hate fun 19:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:04 -!- Vall has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:06 -!- Prozacelf has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 19:13:58 was looking through the bugs, 10472 has a good title 19:14:13 !bug 10472 19:14:13 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10472 19:14:38 PleasingFungus, I'm around (also if you can, please send stuff to this nick, I know it's annoying I keep switching) 19:15:17 Brannock: that's one that would be nice to fix before release, too; it's an usk bug 19:15:26 haven't looked into it 19:16:38 xormask: my thought was: if we want to keep book descriptions & trog burning for flavor, the minimal way to keep everything is to *not* goldify books. instead, just make standing on a book ID it and (for non-troggites) add its spells to your library, but leave the actual book around 19:17:02 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:17:16 the physical books wouldn't end up doing anything (for non-troggites) after you'd ID'd them, which is a little inelegant, but it's not an inconvenience for players 19:19:41 PleasingFungus, it also has weird situations like elephants knocking you backwards onto books and you getting all the spells 19:19:45 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:19:50 Does gold take time to pick up? 19:20:29 xormask: the elephant thing is currently intentional, but we could easily change that 19:20:52 though i guess then you'd have cases where you were on a book but it's not id'd, which seems messy 19:20:58 Yeah 19:21:11 yes, picking up gold takes time 19:21:15 tested 19:21:51 Yeah I mean that's what seems weird about the insta ID and add on walking over it. It intuitively seems like that process should take time (which is solved by having to pick up the book) 19:22:37 I guess it makes books behave like traps 19:22:39 if we have to choose between flavor, inconvenience, and 'makes sense' 19:22:42 i think i know what i'd choose 19:23:00 one option is to retheme books to, like, bookshelves or something - something fixed 19:23:05 but i guess then you don't have trog throwing 19:23:09 yeah 19:23:17 Hmm, I can't reproduce that bug in wizmode even with battleaxe, uskayaw, and same mutations 19:23:26 it might've been fixed 19:23:34 oh, I forgot to brand chaos 19:23:35 you could try to see if you could repro it in a commit from when that bug was filed 19:23:46 will do next 19:23:52 af442a0 19:23:55 -!- LARC has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:24:10 clearly we should make books evokable like tomb of destruction was 19:24:28 evoke to...? 19:24:33 cast a random spell in the book 19:24:45 noted 19:24:48 walk over the book, it's added to your library and you can memorize spells 19:25:01 pick it up and you get a dangerous casting device! 19:25:24 what level of seriousness are you on 19:25:29 27 19:25:39 I'd put it around 5 19:25:45 on a 1 - 27 scale 19:25:49 where 27 is more serious 19:25:52 5 is basically 27 19:25:57 you have answered all of my questions. 19:26:02 i consider myself fully content. 19:26:48 "You step on the book of Fire and are infused with arcane knowledge!" 19:27:32 silliness 19:27:49 don't step on a book of fire 19:27:53 ...you might get burned 19:27:56 you don't have to phrase things in a way that heightens the absurdities 19:28:09 PleasingFungus, why not?? 19:28:26 :P 19:28:38 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:28:50 couldn't reproduce even with chaos, checking out af442a0 now 19:28:57 Personally I like the idea of Trog worshippers picking up books and it going in Trog's book pile 19:29:02 hrm, so I guess for Trog you would still have this library built up 19:29:03 possibly an alternate M screen 19:29:14 doesn't he have some thing where you get more piety if the book is unided? 19:29:24 I guess that can remain with this change, regardless 19:29:38 and you have an ability that lets you throw a book from the book pile and it lands and bursts into flames? 19:29:41 idk 19:29:57 well, that won't work 19:30:22 gammafunk, because it stops the land mine thing? 19:30:38 no, because then you have to have an inventory showing which books are being thrown 19:30:58 since that's relevant to someone making a decision for what books they don't mind getting rid of 19:31:07 you can abandon trog, after all 19:31:11 gammafunk: i was saying that it wouldn't add to the library 19:31:17 if you're under trog 19:31:17 Well that's why I was saying there could be a book pile screen 19:31:19 ah 19:31:20 that showed you books 19:31:25 otherwise there's no actual tradeoff 19:31:37 if you abandon Trog, your book pile just turns into a library 19:31:38 yeah you wouldn't want a book pile screen, I think 19:31:39 it's just purely a conjure flame resource 19:31:57 if you abandon trog he should burn the book pile imo 19:32:02 Not adding to the library is probbly the smart way 19:32:10 amalloy: no! 19:32:24 i am extremely smart. 19:32:35 Nice try, but nothing will stop my getting the Mi score, not even amalloy's tricks 19:32:37 it says so everywhere. my 5th grade report card, 19:32:52 oh my god, have you seriously still not beaten mibe 19:33:07 hmmm...it says "S-...Often fails to take responsibility." 19:33:30 nooo 19:33:31 Do kids get grades like S and U in grade school any more? 19:33:34 i have no idea 19:33:40 i saw someone posting a report card with that on it 19:33:51 but it might've been from some time ago 19:36:13 PleasingFungus, the add spells to your library on walking over the book just seems so unintuitive. How does this interact with autoexplore? The book shouldn't be autopickup, does autoexplore just always go over books if it can? 19:36:50 i really don't care about the unintuitive argument, sorry. themeing is always the easy part of design. 19:36:55 fair question wrt autoexplore. 19:37:16 PleasingFungus, I don't mean in terms of theme I mean in terms of new players 19:37:38 It doesn't fit with how anything else works. 19:37:38 I mean, those are two sides of a coin. A good theme makes what's going on intuitive. 19:37:47 Fair enough... 19:38:15 xormask: how intuitive for new players is it to make a big pile of books for effectient use of M? 19:38:28 %git 3327b90 19:38:28 07MarvinPA02 * 0.12-a0-2232-g3327b90: Give the same Trog piety for all burnt books 10(3 years, 6 months ago, 2 files, 3+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3327b90c9d1d 19:38:32 gammafunk: ^ 19:38:39 New players will see: "It was a book of fire. Flame Tongue, etc etc etc are added to your library (M)". 19:38:44 ah, I figured as much when I said it! Good to know. 19:38:56 Or some much better phrasing. 19:39:08 clearly an exclamation point after fire 19:39:09 But I doubt they'll have any trouble following what's going on. 19:39:28 wrt autoexplore, we'll probably have to tweak it to try to travel to un-ID'd books, like it currently goes toward piles that have unseen things underneath them 19:40:07 So the idea is we don't want to require players to pick up the book, since then they'll only have drop it immediately every time? 19:40:25 gammafunk the original idea was the book would disappear upon being picked up 19:40:31 but this causes Trog problems 19:40:46 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:40:47 and flavor problems! The Flavor Cost 19:40:50 Yeah I'm not talking about that, but the reasoning behind having spells added from ground items 19:40:54 yeah 19:40:54 Flavor problems? 19:41:05 xormask: there wouldn't be a way to see book descriptions anywhere 19:41:10 which you, and others, have expressed sorrow about 19:41:12 Oh right right. 19:41:12 vs requiring picking up the book. I guess requiring pickup is bound to be annoying 19:41:34 That's why I said we make them evokable! 19:41:41 :P 19:41:42 so you want to pickup the book! 19:41:42 no 19:41:46 dang 19:42:21 introducing new problems to solve problems better solved through simpler means *is* a classic dcss design pattern 19:42:26 but we're going to have to veto that one, sorry 19:42:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:45 If sif gifts me a book where I'm standing, I assume it will do the library thing within the same turn that the book is created 19:44:08 I can't reproduce DEAD MONSTER at all, but I suspect it might be something related to not-the-player killing the orc right before the kick action. 19:44:19 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:22 wish he'd given better details 19:44:23 Like "Bam, Sif just shoved these spells in your head, yo!" which is pretty cool actually 19:44:24 it's gonna be the pain bond effect 19:44:35 that's what causes 90% of usk bugs 19:44:35 maybe 75% 19:44:41 !lm lasty 19:44:42 17450. [2016-08-11 21:42:14] Lasty the Nimble (L16 OpAM of Hepliaklqana) reached level 15 of the Dungeon on turn 34241. (D:15) 19:44:42 will spawn stronger orcs to get that to happen 19:44:49 lasty was playing today, lasty lives 19:44:52 gammafunk: yeah, good call, i forgot about book gifts 19:45:10 PleasingFungus: but it doesn't seem to be problematic, as I'm thinking about it 19:45:13 PleasingFungus, I mean I was originally thinking book gifts would just be spells that went to your library 19:45:13 Brannock: you can always fiddle with monster hp manually if that'd be helpful 19:45:19 unless I'm misunderstanding how it would work 19:45:19 but that has a flavor cost 19:45:31 i think you could implement it either way 19:45:35 Yeah 19:45:39 i don't think there's a strong advantage to either 19:45:46 you could implement it that way even with this change; I think the book thing is cool 19:46:01 you lose all the UI hassle with new sif gifts and you can read the book and see like 19:46:10 making book gifts still exist (but be auto-added to your library upon gifting) is probably simpler to implement 19:46:10 The Tome of Gammafunk Inevitable Victory 19:46:14 if you still want to 19:46:32 *Gammafunk's 19:48:09 I suppose a weird thing about this is having an item remain that's so useless; I know the flavor/trog ability thing is an important issue 19:48:31 I guess it's not super different than just a lot of junk items littering the dungeon like we have already 19:48:45 i agree it's super inelegant 19:48:54 r-i argues that crawl is the wrong place to look for elegance :P 19:48:55 gammafunk, that's why I suggested the book screen of books you've picked up 19:48:56 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:04 but that's not elegant either 19:49:22 xormask: that doesn't solve the problem though; having a screen where you can look at the useless items doesn't make them useful 19:49:27 and it's not inelegant in a way that gets in the way of the player 19:50:08 Add a god ability for book casting! 19:50:14 I'm sure somehow has suggested that 19:50:17 *someone 19:50:48 isn't that sif 19:51:07 cheap amnesia is halfway there already 19:51:11 I mean book casting isn't particularly useful if you have sif amnesia 19:51:12 yeah 19:52:01 gammafunk, I'm actually curious why are evokable books so bad 19:52:14 Just that it would totally screw up balance? 19:52:46 adding a metric ton of new evocable items to further reward training one of the best skills sounds bad for balance, yeah 19:53:00 also like 19:53:16 inventory pressure isn't fun either 19:53:21 ui issues, balance issues 19:53:31 ??sanguine armor 19:53:31 I don't have a page labeled sanguine_armor in my learndb. 19:53:32 sometimes you get a targetter, sometimes you don't 19:53:35 ??sanguine 19:53:35 I don't have a page labeled sanguine in my learndb. 19:53:39 ?/sanguine 19:53:40 No matches. 19:53:41 dang 19:53:46 -!- flappity_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:53:47 trying to match this guy's character exactly 19:53:53 I haven't been able to reproduce it at all 19:53:56 ??blood armour 19:53:56 I don't have a page labeled blood_armour in my learndb. 19:54:03 Brannock: even on the older commit? 19:54:05 yes 19:54:07 amalloy inventory pressure is the whole point of the change, I was just trying to think of something to make books less useless. 19:54:18 it's interesting that i haven't seen anyone else report it; it's probably a pretty niche circumstance 19:54:23 I have 500 hp orcs swarming an uskayaw dancer with chaos and all the aux muts 19:54:29 pain bond is rolling 19:54:30 <|amethyst> radiate_pain_bond should probably be a fineff 19:54:31 you might be better off looking at aux attack / pain bond code and seeing if you can reason out where things could go wrong 19:54:37 <|amethyst> just like most of the things in react_to_damage 19:54:51 what is a fineff? 19:55:38 final effect 19:55:43 triggers at end of turn 19:55:45 -!- Bammboo00 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:47 <|amethyst> a "final effect"—an event that gets scheduled to happen when an attack is over 19:55:52 yeah, end of turn is wrong, sorry 19:56:16 idea is to avoid stuff like killing yourself midway through your own attack 19:56:16 <|amethyst> It does happen at end of turn, but also in some other situations 19:56:22 <|amethyst> search for fire_final_effects 19:56:34 shock serpents use 'em, trampling uses 'em 19:56:36 some other stuff 19:57:48 PleasingFungus, what's the themeing you had in mind, for when I write messages. 19:58:12 great question! 19:58:25 i'm gonna get back to you on that shortly. 19:58:35 ok 20:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:02 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:06:20 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:10:33 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 20:11:21 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:13 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:05 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:15 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:58 xormask: You find a Book of Flame. Flame Tongue, Throw Flame and Conjure Flame enter your library. 20:21:57 You find a Tome of Gammafunk's Demise, a Grimoire of Gammafunk's Doom, and the Book of the Giaggostuono, but there are no new spells inside. 20:22:11 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:22:59 ok 20:23:00 -!- sneakyness has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:25 note that "enter" may have to be "enters" (one spell), and also i forgot 20:23:25 Can I add an exclamation point after a book with new spells? 20:23:35 of course. 20:23:52 enter your library (%s)", command_to_string(CMD_MEMORIZE) 20:24:00 so you get the 'M' hint 20:24:01 something like that 20:24:06 also 20:24:13 should book classes still start with books in their inventories? 20:24:32 yes, mu need breadswinging items 20:24:39 lol. 20:24:47 i feel like the books are important, but it's lame to give them something that they have no reason not to drop immediately. we could place it at their feet, but that's super weird 20:25:00 also ofc they should start with the spells from the book in their library regardless 20:25:05 Yeah 20:25:16 good nerf to VM^Trog 20:25:24 is it 20:25:28 imo "is/are added to your library" or something, "enter" makes it sound like the spells have agency of their own 20:25:29 I was thinking just start with the spells in your library 20:25:41 yeah, is it good? very good. delicious. 20:25:54 I mean clearly they have some agency of your own if they enter your library without you doing anything 20:25:58 *their own 20:27:08 the thing you do is to add them to your library 20:27:23 But you don't do anything! 20:27:27 This just happens! 20:27:33 MarvinPA: i really like implying agency 20:27:35 you may have noticed this 20:27:57 it seems very weird to me in this case! 20:27:59 You are doing something, you're persuing the book. 20:28:03 it's magic, mpa. 20:28:05 You're just not taking up an entire turn to do so 20:28:07 maaaagiiiic... 20:28:15 i don't think using the passive voice helps that sentence, MarvinPA 20:28:22 gammafunk: canonically, we already know that perusing a book doesn't take time 20:28:27 what else is the (r) command for? 20:28:41 amalloy: sure, "You add to your library." also seems simple and fine 20:28:45 those thigns are all taking time, just not sufficient time to cost a turn 20:28:49 *things 20:28:53 xormask: have you considered how unintuitive and bizarre the concept of a library is? 20:29:24 anyway none of this matters and can easily be changed after there's a patch that does the thing and works, so whatever 20:29:25 i mean, is every adventurer carting around a sack of books on their back? are they all skilled arcane transcriptionists, equipped with whatever tools and equipment are needed to write magical spellbooks? 20:29:26 less than 1 aut of time, so insignificant that it's irrelevant; My "point" is that trying to make arguments about what the player is "doing" aren't really necessary 20:29:29 it's absurd! 20:29:30 tonight at 11: DCSS devs call libraries "bizarre" 20:29:56 PleasingFungus, yes I have 20:30:03 But books are annoying 20:30:04 real capitalists would buy all their own books 20:30:29 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:45 my conclusion is that the spells hop out of the book, into your brain 20:30:49 but not *all* the way into your brain 20:30:53 but - 20:30:55 yes 20:30:57 just in the outer limits 20:31:03 memorized spells in one lobe, library spells in the other 20:31:04 don't get super hung up on "realism", xormask 20:31:05 and then (M)emorizing them allocates special neurons 20:31:15 the magical lobe 20:31:19 the lom lobe 20:31:24 and the slightly less magical lobe 20:31:29 filled with lom lobons 20:31:29 cerebov lobe? 20:31:32 ! 20:31:47 I use robots to manage my spells...LomLobots.. 20:31:50 he is dumb enough to not know how to swim 20:31:55 despite casting lv9 spell 20:31:57 unrelated, but 10609 is a really good bug report 20:32:04 !bug 10609 20:32:05 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10609 20:32:19 excellent 20:32:21 that's great 20:32:46 doing Code Archaeology on that found the time that linesprint was removed because of a furious argument about horizontal vs vertical orientation 20:33:10 yes, I was just thinking about that! It's the only notable thing I could remember in the history of linesprint 20:33:13 that was very silly yes 20:33:19 is one of those somehow better than the other, in a turn based game 20:33:42 i wasn't around then, but i bet it was about the proportions of console glyphs 20:34:05 ding ding ding 20:34:20 %git 9c081e9989210999fec13828c7766572d8f5ccdd 20:34:20 07rchandra02 {|amethyst} * 0.14-a0-1139-g9c081e9: Orient linesprint horizontally only. 10(2 years, 8 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9c081e998921 20:34:22 lol 20:34:24 %git ccf31d4db4ab08536c2fa1aaaac39570039dca73 20:34:24 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-1140-gccf31d4: Remove linesprint (st_) 10(2 years, 8 months ago, 1 file, 0+ 1090-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ccf31d4db4ab 20:34:34 note commit numbers 20:35:02 'FUCK YOU get it OUT of here' 20:35:20 bet you'd find some extremely 'fun' irc logs from around then 20:35:35 oh no, there wasn't all that much argument 20:35:38 I was in channel at the time 20:35:43 crawl was a wild place before the civilizing presence of amalloy 20:35:53 my first impression was thinking abt how Nuclear Throne is pillarboxed because of monitor size, so you have the same time to react from enemies in all directions 20:35:56 I forgot console exists 20:35:58 I do wonder about what great crawl irc arguments I may have missed 20:36:00 the worst part of it is all the millimarvins i had to lose reverting the removal 20:36:06 haha 20:36:07 lmao 20:36:23 no, you can't lose millimarvins. you're always at 1k millimarvins 20:36:32 the curse of the mpa 20:36:43 true! the millimarvin deflation that it caused, then 20:41:34 ??millimarvin 20:41:34 millimarvin[1/1]: 16.798 net lines of code removed (as of 2016-08-07) 20:41:41 still not too shabby 20:46:51 whoa, even i'm at 1k millimarvins? 20:47:01 no 20:47:04 aw 20:47:15 marvinpa commits define the concept of millimarvins 20:47:29 oh, he is always there then 20:47:29 so he always has exactly 1000 millimarvins 20:47:29 you're at like 1k milliprozacs 20:47:33 because he's one marvin 20:47:44 lol, i'm at "like" that? 20:47:49 roughly 20:47:50 you're at 0 20:47:59 hard to say because nobody knows what a milliprozac measures 20:48:54 frankly it would devalue the milliprozac if most people could accurately measure it 20:49:58 =p 20:53:06 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Quit: *ollies out*] 20:54:30 What's the target date for 0.19, out of curiosity 20:54:40 If crawl even has those 20:55:06 we generally have a release roughly every six months 20:55:34 last release was 2016/05/04 20:55:48 I see 20:55:52 pls no christmas tourney 20:56:14 (that's May, not April, to be clear) 20:56:25 So what crazy changes are gonna make it in by then? 20:56:25 !lg * s=week(start) -graph 20:56:25 6016691 games for *: https://shalott.org/graphs/5e6b3f2c1e903b147dc045f7f16dc8db52cb1efb.html 20:56:31 see, now you're asking if we have a *plan* 20:56:51 :/ 20:56:56 hm, surprisingly there's no drop off around christmas / early-jan 20:56:58 -!- punpun has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:56:58 ??plan 20:56:58 plan[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:release_plans 20:57:19 lotta folks playing on holiday 20:57:24 ??plan[2 20:57:25 0.20 Plan: Remove Lightli 20:57:35 that got moved back 20:57:38 dang 20:57:48 i was gonna say, seems like we could make that earlier if we really tried... 20:57:50 wow there really is no 0.19 plan haha 20:57:59 why would we need a plan 20:58:07 ??plan 20:58:07 plan[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:release_plans 20:58:15 personally, I'm waiting for floodkiller to finish SSO 20:58:15 learn add plan Do Stuff 20:58:17 or at least show up again 20:58:21 !seen floodkiller 20:58:21 I last saw Floodkiller at Sun May 8 23:37:50 2016 UTC (13w 4d 1h 20m 31s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Page closed'. 20:58:35 sso? 20:58:44 single sign-on 20:58:46 the great windmill to tilt at 20:58:50 unified log-in between servers 20:58:56 What;s SSO 20:58:58 oh 20:58:59 oh 20:59:34 he probably realized it's hard and fell on his sword for an honorable exit 20:59:42 PleasingFungus, where do you think most of the latency in webtiles is coming from 20:59:59 amalloy: probably 21:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:20 xormask: you can read that as 'amalloy, probably' 21:00:21 =D 21:00:25 xormask: frankly, i would not be able to tell you, aside from obvious cases (when servers get heavily overloaded and start lurching) 21:00:28 (e.g. cjr every night) 21:00:53 But that probably just comes down to processing time for the crawl process right? 21:00:56 -!- insecticide has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:01:06 PleasingFungus: weirdly, i get terrible lag on cbro when it has a very light load of users a lot of the time 21:01:07 (processing time for the process... sigh) 21:01:41 ProzacElf: where are you relative to the server? 21:01:46 ha ha ha now i will come to your house 21:01:51 xormask: most latency would be "last mile" eg client<->server 21:02:02 you can see this by running a webtiles server locally 21:02:30 cbro is in like atlanta right? 21:03:07 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:12 well, regardless, i'm not all that far from chicago 21:03:12 ??cbro 21:03:12 cbro[1/4]: Server in Georgia, US: crawl.beRotato.org -- ssh port 22, username crawler, keys at http://crawl.beRotato.org/crawl/keys (no password access). In case of DNS problems, use crawl.boylecraft.net. Webtiles at: http://crawl.beRotato.org. Use glyph/sigil ^ for bots 21:03:16 probably 21:03:17 chequers, basically what I'm asking is there latency because of the processing load of a bunch of crawl instances, or is it all network 21:03:22 You seem to be saying network 21:03:23 chequers: isn't that the opposite of what last mile means 21:04:05 PleasingFungus: depends if you're a backend developer or carrier network engineer 21:04:48 xormask: I can't speak to the CPU load on CBRO, but IME more crawl processes adds jitter but not much latency on average 21:05:28 I wasn't asking about CBRO specifically. Network latency seems easier to overcome to me 21:05:41 the master application server processes input and output in a single thread, so it's possible for a single bad client or game response delay to affect all players 21:05:53 dang, really 21:05:58 i'm shocked cao works at all 21:05:58 :O 21:05:59 eg occasionally on my server a ttyrec write will take >0.5secs and that's jitter for all players 21:06:17 if you're thinking "slow clients cause problems" no 21:06:52 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:06:55 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 21:06:59 it would be a problem if the network write call blocks, a timeout generally won't cause that 21:07:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:56 Are individual crawl instances protected by any processing time quotas? 21:08:07 to stop crawl instances that run wild 21:08:15 no, nor update rate limiting 21:08:34 it's rare there are problems but every now and then someone decides to run qw without speed limit 21:08:41 What's qw? 21:08:53 a bot that runs as user rc lua 21:08:57 Ah 21:09:10 So the server runs user lua scripts? 21:09:22 user config file can have embedded lua 21:09:33 scary 21:09:42 i'm surprised no one's managed to break out yet, tbh 21:09:44 autofight is implemented as this (sorta) 21:09:50 really funny how the mystery game I'm playing in an upcoming stream features....inventory limits 21:10:01 what's funny about that 21:10:17 someone like demise playing mibe can generate significant load on a server :D 21:10:25 like, 20% of a core on average 21:10:30 because the mystery game shouldn't have crawl features 21:10:46 uhh, EXCUSE ME, but invenory limits were invented by DIABLO 21:10:48 if I find a hidden trog altar I'm going to be very upset 21:10:51 dang 21:11:03 i'm learning so much right now. 21:11:23 oh, i thought i pushed this earlier 21:11:28 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-1127-gac58878: Apply a stepdown to para/conf ench dur 10(21 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac588780420e 21:11:33 chequers, so that load is just coming from the crawl process itself? 21:11:49 right. the web server is lightweight, it just has blocking issues due to doing a lot in the event loop 21:12:12 chequers, I was just wondering how much time it takes to process what to send to the client 21:12:30 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:06 well can't give you numbers, but like i said, playing on a local webtiles server feels as responsive as playing on local tiles 21:13:14 preparing json doesn't take much cpu 21:13:59 local webtiles feels absolutely horrible on os x, but i'm not sure why 21:14:03 100 turn paralysis? 21:14:04 i mean, beyond it being insanely slow 21:14:13 ProzacElf: absolutely! 21:14:37 <|amethyst> on CAO right now, the webtiles server is taking about 12% of a core 21:14:42 really? I run it all the time and it's ok 21:14:48 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:14:51 -!- rj54x has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:14:51 come to think of it, i have retreated upstairs and come back down to see dudes still confused/paralyzed 21:15:03 |amethyst what is the load of the server? 21:15:06 how does the monster version work? 21:15:27 because 4 turns is still enough to guarantee death if you're a spriggan =( 21:15:34 ProzacElf: if you mean the duration on players, I think someone mentioned it was hardcoded to 5-7 21:15:55 yeah, that was what i meant 21:16:08 that's confusion, i'd have to check para 21:16:22 para is 2-7 21:16:25 i don't think i've ever seen a 7 turn paralysis there 21:16:33 it is, apparently, possible 21:16:40 but then i don't think i've ever lived for 7 turns of para 21:16:40 yeah 21:16:56 <|amethyst> xormask: load average right now is 2.3 or so 21:17:15 <|amethyst> xormask: 30% CPU usage on an 8-core machine 21:17:50 |amethyst, thanks 21:18:05 chequers: hmm, it seems a lot faster than i remembered (local webtiles on os x), but the game still hangs on a black screen for a long time while reloading a saved game 21:18:09 does sort of back up my assertion that MR is the biggest gear-check in the game still though 21:18:28 also hangs for ages when changing levels 21:18:34 PleasingFungus: hm yeah, cant comment on that 21:19:02 Clearly I need to convert all the floating point to fixed and then make sure the RNG is consistent 21:19:04 &{ just locks it up entirely, etc 21:19:15 and then run parallel copies on server and client 21:19:32 imo any parallel client is just going to have to handle out-of-syncs 21:19:52 PleasingFungus, I don't see how 21:19:56 really? 21:20:06 PleasingFungus, not in a way that is good for the player 21:20:21 mm, maybe not 21:20:43 something like tf2 or other online fpses assume the client is out of sync all the time, but of course there's different requirements for input precision there 21:21:19 <|amethyst> are we making realtime crawl? 21:21:28 -!- NotKintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:32 mmocrawl 21:21:34 no I just want buttery smooth webtiles 21:21:53 "shit, i got hosed while i was adjusting my skill progression!" 21:21:55 xor has been talking about making a local client that runs in parallel with the server, so you don't have to wait for server responses to your input to get the response 21:22:07 <|amethyst> why have the server at all? 21:22:11 security 21:22:16 as was immediately pointed out to me 21:22:29 without the server you have no community 21:22:36 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 21:22:41 You need something trusted to make sure that the client is reporting correct results. 21:22:48 -!- adibis has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:57 <|amethyst> xormask: but there's more than that 21:22:58 why, someone might go out and kill your streaks or flood the server with ghosts if you weren't, uh..... 21:23:20 |amethyst, yeah? 21:23:21 <|amethyst> xormask: if the server sends the client additional information to allow it to "prerender" things 21:23:27 ProzacElf: once sso gets here, all these woes will go away. 21:23:32 except the ghosts thing. the ghosts are just funny. 21:23:45 -!- qguv has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:23:48 <|amethyst> xormask: e.g. if the server sends the client the location of monsters just outside of LOS (which would allow you to render the next term) 21:23:58 heh, i don't really mind the ghosts most of the time, but some people really hate it 21:24:03 <|amethyst> xormask: then the player can inspect that data and know stuff they're not supposed to know 21:24:22 |amethyst, ah rip 21:24:48 i've heard rumors of people deliberately trying to flood servers with dren ghosts of xl 7 21:24:55 <|amethyst> xormask: FPSes can deal with that by making you install spyware that reports back to them if you are running a debugger 21:24:57 but i haven't seen any evidence of that in actual play 21:25:08 <|amethyst> xormask: that's not really feasible for an open-source game 21:25:58 <|amethyst> xormask: basically, it would be all wallhacks, all the time :) 21:26:20 |amethyst, yeah makes sense 21:26:56 -!- ironycurtain has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:27:10 yeah, i hadn't even thought about that aspect of it, but it's true 21:29:01 <|amethyst> it's the same reason we don't allow players access to their own save backups 21:29:11 <|amethyst> (unless they happen to be devs or server admins, anyway) 21:29:53 <|amethyst> I did make an one-time exception to that when I took CSZO down, for Piginabag's historic game 21:30:18 !seen johnstein 21:30:18 I last saw johnstein at Wed Aug 10 15:25:57 2016 UTC (1d 10h 4m 20s ago) saying '!messages' on ##crawl-sequell. 21:30:26 What was the historic game? 21:30:40 some absurd 100+ zig game 21:30:50 <|amethyst> http://dobrazupa.org/stuff/Piginabag.cs 21:30:52 <|amethyst> https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/470y3y/a_celebration_of_excess_info_in_comments/ 21:31:42 wow... what did gammafunk do 21:31:48 I'm just a ping away 21:31:49 but will be away away for an hour 21:32:03 wonder what I was opining about in that image 21:32:09 was thinking about the discussion of someone taking over cszo 21:32:20 from back just after it went down 21:32:49 <|amethyst> I like the caption, "I have terraformed dungeon 1 to my pleasing" 21:33:21 i'm glad of it. 21:33:50 he was so insistant that has bad crawl idea was good 21:34:00 he offered to change the message if I implemented it 21:34:11 s/has/his/ 21:34:12 <|amethyst> CSZO is still there, with nothing deleted, and fresh TLS keys even 21:34:40 What was it? 21:34:43 at this point, with a dedicated cjr admin, which is a server with pretty considerable hardware 21:34:51 I'm not sure if cszo is super needed 21:35:17 then again adding back cszo would involve very little effort, presumably, if someone wants to run it 21:35:34 <|amethyst> yeah, if the existing servers can handle the load, there's not necessarily a reason to bring it back 21:35:44 -!- jefus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:35:58 <|amethyst> particularly considering it's in more or less the same location as CBRO 21:37:00 <|amethyst> I should find something to do with that server anyway... too lazy to cancel my hosting 21:37:37 |amethyst: if you did cancel hosting, would that break all the morgues/ttyrecs etc? 21:38:02 !lg * start>=2016-05-06 21:38:04 456523. FriskyBits the Caller (L3 DESu of Elyvilon), succumbed to an adder's poison on D:3 on 2016-08-12 01:37:09, with 62 points after 1630 turns and 0:16:50. 21:38:09 !lg * start>=2016-05-06 s=src% 21:38:11 456523 games for * (start>=2016-05-06): 123855x cao (27.13%), 117905x cwz (25.83%), 93679x cbro (20.52%), 48718x cxc (10.67%), 36431x cue (7.98%), 13200x cjr (2.89%), 12857x cpo (2.82%), 6138x lld (1.34%), 3740x cdo (0.82%) 21:38:31 <|amethyst> yeah, though snark or someone might be willing to host them 21:38:53 <|amethyst> all the ttyrecs older than 2014ish are hosted by snark anyway 21:39:01 I suppose it's pretty easy to just update the urls in sequell/scoring pages 21:39:06 <|amethyst> s/the ttyrecs/the CSZO ttyrecs/ 21:45:59 -!- home has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:38 -!- eb has quit [] 21:55:03 -!- arcanemastermind has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:58:34 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:59 !lg * killer=viper 22:06:00 15. mpa the Thaumaturge (L11 HuCj of Okawaru), succumbed to a viper's poison on D:10 on 2011-11-27 03:36:45, with 9963 points after 21343 turns and 1:56:48. 22:06:03 !lg * killer=viper x=cv 22:06:04 15. [cv=0.9] mpa the Thaumaturge (L11 HuCj of Okawaru), succumbed to a viper's poison on D:10 on 2011-11-27 03:36:45, with 9963 points after 21343 turns and 1:56:48. 22:06:06 rip 22:08:56 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-1127-gac58878 (34) 22:09:50 -!- Zxpr1jk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:16 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:41 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 22:14:27 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:32 -!- Warrigal is now known as tswett 22:17:27 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:17:44 -!- Yermak has joined ##crawl-dev 22:19:19 -!- magistern has quit [Quit: magistern] 22:19:53 -!- sneakyness has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:45 -!- pyrotecnix has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:25:09 -!- infrashortfoo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:25:10 -!- infrashortfoo__ is now known as infrashortfoo_ 22:29:34 -!- qguv has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:08 Are devteam summer lulls normal? I haven't paid much attention to crawl development until recently, but it seems that Grunt, Lasty, and dpeg are busy with irl stuff all at the same time. 22:34:55 grunt has been busy for a long time 22:35:16 http://s-z.org/crawl-stats/commits_by_year_month.png here's a graph 22:35:48 i would say that it's not a 'normal' thing, just the result of most of the dev team drifting away from the game 22:35:55 which i guess is normal 22:35:56 that giant spike in 2010 is interesting. when did webtiles go in? 22:35:58 open-source problems 22:36:07 no idea! 22:36:14 and yeah, the devteam has rotated pretty regularly for as long as I've been playing (since 2007) 22:36:22 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/graphs/contributors has per-dev graphs 22:36:24 I remember when it was all kilobyte and mumra 22:36:52 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:22 when I started it was 1kb, mumra, grunt, DO, mpa, and elliptic who were really active 22:37:25 <|amethyst> 2010 would be "kilobyte joined" 22:37:30 heh 22:37:32 i had a feeling 22:37:33 oh and of course neil! 22:37:40 well, hm, he doesn't seem to have been... 22:37:53 looks like those spikes were mostly 'robx' 22:38:04 kb as a secondary contributor 22:38:13 yeah kilobyte was more consistent 22:38:16 sadly I missed the days of rob 22:38:23 he's also a realy good player 22:38:28 held a few species high scores 22:38:32 think he still has MD 22:38:34 !hs * md 22:38:35 97275. rob the Executioner (L27 MDFi of The Shining One), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-01-23 00:24:25, with 33813486 points after 43248 turns and 9:31:56. 22:38:45 yep 22:38:45 lol 22:39:03 I wonder if crawl is approaching "final status" development. I think there's room to expand it breadth-wise (i.e., new alt branches) but depth-wise it seems fairly locked in 22:39:06 <|amethyst> yeah, rob/by contributed a lot in late 2009 22:39:19 pretty cool considering how contested said species would have been, although I think score attempts were just much rarer back then in general 22:39:24 !hs * md -2 22:39:25 97274/97275. Tenaya the Executioner (L27 MDTh of Lugonu), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-06-12 00:01:41, with 21217156 points after 70391 turns and 11:53:14. 22:39:28 !hs * md -3 22:39:29 97273/97275. Tenaya the Executioner (L27 MDDK of The Shining One), escaped with the Orb and 16 runes on 2010-06-18 00:13:03, with 20469564 points after 73387 turns and 10:57:31. 22:39:37 <|amethyst> Brannock: in that case some fork will take over I hope 22:39:38 Thaumaturge, now there's an ancient class 22:39:54 th was thief 22:39:58 I mean, look at nethack 22:40:02 <|amethyst> Brannock: all the kids will be playing circus animals 22:40:02 thief! thief! 22:40:05 that game was 'dead' for how long, and now it's alive again! 22:40:06 Ughh of course it's Thief, I blame !battlemage 22:40:20 nethack is alive again!? 22:40:22 yep 22:40:33 bunch of new devs, a release recently, they're making commits 22:40:33 nethack was my introduction to roguelikes (then I immediately moved onto ADOM and Linley's DC) 22:40:34 r??battlemage 22:40:34 battlemage[1/7]: BATTLEMAGE 22:40:39 <|amethyst> Brannock: http://nethack.org/v360/release.html 22:40:40 i shoulda known 22:41:12 no chance they'll make nethack less spoilery, of course 22:41:23 Brannock: yeah nethack also my first RL, I looked at ADOM and at DCSS, played a nethack variant (sporkhack), and started up again with DCSS a year or so later 22:41:23 that's like making water elementals less wet 22:41:28 i mean, spoilery feels like the wrong way to describe it 22:41:31 like saying that myst is spoilery 22:41:49 <|amethyst> Making nethack less spoilery would be like making Crawl more grinding-oriented 22:41:52 heh, "remove those annoying secrets from Myst please!" 22:42:05 <|amethyst> s/Crawl/crawl/ 22:42:05 'why doesn't the piano have an instruction book?' 22:42:08 just hit space and the game plays a bunch of cutscenes 22:42:36 walking simulators are very 'in' these days 22:43:15 we should add a sine function to crawl's tiles as they move, for realistic walking 22:43:19 ADOM released recently on Steam, I think 22:43:27 seems way slowed down compared to console version 22:43:52 PleasingFungus: no man's dungeon 22:43:55 !!! 22:44:20 <|amethyst> my nethack experience is kind of weird, because I read the entire 3.1 spoiler before ever playing the game 22:45:00 <|amethyst> mostly because one of the local BBSes had the spoilers available for download but not the actual game (it was way too big) 22:45:33 I definitely read a lot about nethack/dcss before playing them much, it's fun to just read about them 22:45:42 <|amethyst> but I probably would have not been as interested in the game had I not read the spoilers and seen the complexity behind it 22:46:38 <|amethyst> My first Crawl win came from following a guide 22:46:40 <|amethyst> on the wiki 22:46:46 <|amethyst> DDNe^Kiku 22:46:47 :o 22:47:20 wow 22:47:27 and we all mocked the guides... but they work! 22:48:38 <|amethyst> when the guide didn't go into detail about something, I didn't worry about it 22:48:40 the twisted res char, I bet 22:49:00 <|amethyst> one of them 22:49:12 do we know roughly how many people play crawl? 22:49:21 -!- koboldina has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:21 <|amethyst> I also won a TR SpSt^Kiku 22:49:23 A cyclops comes into view. The cyclops shouts! The cyclops throws a large rock. The large rock hits you!! You die... 22:49:27 <|amethyst> that one was actually online 22:49:28 how many shirts do I have to bribe you guys with 22:49:30 to remove energy randomization 22:49:37 print the shirts 22:49:49 that has nothing to do with energy randomization 22:50:05 it doesn't? I thought without getting a energy randomized double attack it's impossible for a monster to act the same turn it comes into view 22:50:13 no 22:50:18 you spent a turn moving 22:50:22 it spent its turn reacting 22:50:25 you move, you see monster, monster acts 22:50:33 presuming you moved into los of monster 22:50:48 you move, you see nothing, monster moves into your vision, monster does not act 22:51:00 I wonder if there's a way to make that more clear? 22:51:04 unless it's a centaur :) 22:51:09 @??cyclops 22:51:10 cyclops (08C) | Spd: 7 | HD: 9 | HP: 42-58 | AC/EV: 5/3 | Dam: 35 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 530 | Sz: Giant | Int: human. 22:51:21 yeah, if your last action was also a very long one, it could happen 22:51:21 it's so slow it can *never* get a double attack against a 10-aut move 22:51:22 I suppose the current status is that monsters freeze permanently forever until you actually do something is clear enough 22:52:51 frankly though early shafts bother me way more than cyclops/stone giant one-shots. especially before you've even identified something like ?tele or ?fear 22:53:09 I'm fine with cyclops one shots if you get a chance to, you know, identify the threat first 22:53:16 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:22 it feels pretty lame to turn a corner and eat a pile of damage simultaneously 22:53:30 it does feel lame, yes 22:53:36 how do you think it should be fixed? 22:53:42 like, it's a pretty non-interactive mechanic 22:53:51 -!- squidcat has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:58 did you read the ongoing tavern thread about this exact subject 22:54:10 if it was up to me I'd probably make monsters take up their turn whenever they shout/quiver (jellies)/etc 22:54:12 no I did not 22:54:12 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21037 this one? 22:54:25 yeah 22:54:33 it gets distracted into arguing about ood guys or whatever 22:54:34 but 22:54:47 but really it doesn't seem outlandish to simply make monsters not attack you the first turn they enter los 22:55:06 personally, i actually (and without a trace of irony) love that confirmation bias is such a hotly contested topic in the crawl community 22:55:20 it leads to "there's more OODs!!" and to "meleebug!!" 22:55:22 it's great 22:55:23 chequers notes there that dcss-ca has a solution: just flatly prevent any attack from one-shotting the player 22:55:33 Brannock: the reason it's fun is because sometimes, rarely, they're right 22:55:35 heh, honestly, i've probably run into an early centaur warrior like a dozen times or more 22:55:36 as he also notes: seems gamey 22:55:47 otoh, crawl IS a game 22:55:49 -!- Eronarn__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:55:50 and i can only think of maybe one time that it killed me 22:55:50 that I actually don't like as a solution, in fact I think that's an outright bad solution pleasingfungus 22:55:57 oh, i don't like it either 22:55:59 i'm just saying 22:56:01 other than being stupid and continuing to explore the level knowing it was there 22:56:15 if you are a felid and you roll into elf and there's an annihilator there and you have less hp than a crystal spear can do, you are knowingly taking the risk of getting one shotted 22:56:19 koboldina: only the very first turn a given monster enters LOS? what if they forget about you and then rediscover you? 22:56:19 <|amethyst> I assume it prevents one-shotting the player from full 22:56:20 oh, of course, yes 22:56:26 |amethyst: i believe so 22:56:28 tengu is probably a better example than felid imho 22:56:35 "damage greater than a certain % of your max HP is capped" 22:56:38 <|amethyst> ah 22:56:46 right, you should already know better than to play felid anyway 22:56:46 <|amethyst> because if it prevented one-shotting the player at all, regardless of current HP, then Zeno's paradox 22:56:55 koboldina: what if it's a monster that's faster than speed 10? should monsters that notice you be paralysed until the next player turn? 22:56:57 pf: if they rediscover you I'd be fine with them attacking then. if you let a cyclops wander off then you are now aware that it's on the level 22:57:02 meaning you can't eat a lame "I had no idea this was coming" death 22:57:07 beware the Ru cost... 22:57:31 you had a chance to deal with the situation and you didn't because you let mr stone giant/cyclops/etc leave your los without dealing with him 22:57:33 if the above thread is the one i think it is, i mentioned the only time i ran into an OOD that i thought was just absolutely unfair 22:57:45 in fact isn't there already code for this where a monster is "aware" of you 22:57:50 or isn't "aware" 22:57:52 you could just use that 22:57:55 no 22:58:03 not in the sense that it tracks whether they've ever noticed you or not 22:58:22 I don't think it would really be eminently abusable even if you made it so like 22:58:35 if the monster is no longer tracking you, it will always take that extra turn as it notices you 22:58:42 I basically think, across the board, "discovering" the player should eat a turn 22:58:49 even for for faster than speed 10 monsters 22:58:52 large chei buff 22:58:54 preventing monsters from attacking you the on they turn they come into view would be a pretty noticeable player buff, i'm fairly sure 22:58:54 should eat a player turn? 22:58:56 :^) 22:59:01 chei is hated anyway brannock 22:59:06 (not by me but that's besides the point) 22:59:06 not by me! 22:59:17 every time I'm like "guys use chei it's fun" people are like "nope" 22:59:22 chei is fun. 22:59:31 !won . chei 22:59:32 Brannock (chei) has won 44 times in 107 games (41.12%): 1xDrFi 1xDsAM 1xDsAs 1xDsGl 1xDsHu 1xDsMo 1xDsWn 1xDsWr 1xFeFi 1xFoFi 1xGhFi 1xGrAs 1xHEFi 1xHOFi 1xKoFi 1xMfFi 1xMiAE 1xMiAK 1xMiAM 1xMiAr 1xMiAs 1xMiCK 1xMiCj 1xMiEE 1xMiEn 1xMiFE 1xMiHu 1xMiIE 1xMiMo 1xMiNe 1xMiSk 1xMiSu 1xMiTm 1xMiVM 1xMiWr 1xMiWz 1xOgFi 1xOpFi 1xTeFi 1xTrFi 1xTrGl 1xVSEn 1xVSFi 1xVpFi 22:59:35 !won . chei 22:59:36 koboldina (chei) has won 7 times in 33 games (21.21%): 1xDrBe 1xFoAr 1xHOAK 1xHuMo 1xOpTm 1xTrHu 1xTrMo 22:59:44 idk 22:59:48 I think discovering the player taking a turn 22:59:51 takes a lot fo bite out of lategame situations 22:59:53 ie hellion island 22:59:59 otoh it makes early game situation sa lot less frustrating 23:00:01 it takes a lot of bite out of most of the game 23:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:03 imo 23:00:04 chei is fun, but he pretty demonstrably makes you worse before he makes you better 23:00:09 I agree 23:00:09 and it's really weirdly player-centric 23:00:15 with both PF and PE 23:00:20 since it's based on player turns instead of time 23:00:26 which creates really weird situations based on player action speed 23:00:53 like, a bat comes into view, and then freezes for six of its turns while a naga cheiwalks 23:00:59 would that end up creating a disadvg for spriggan? 23:01:01 gotta be polite 23:01:03 I'm not sure what the overall best solution would be, just that if I had to guess it's probably the most common source of 'unfair' deaths where you don't feel like it was interactive at all 23:01:04 / centaur 23:01:10 <|amethyst> suppose, in current Crawl, there were some god who paralysed monsters for 1 player turn the first time you saw them (with no other abilities) 23:01:15 <|amethyst> would you take that god? 23:01:18 ehhh 23:01:20 hmm 23:01:36 <|amethyst> IMO if so, then it's too powerful to do across the board 23:01:41 I probably would not take that god 23:01:43 I'd only take him lategame, against tormentors/damners 23:01:49 well, it'd probably be a great god for all those people who think you should learn firestorm on every character 23:01:49 even in lategame I'd take ru over that god 23:01:53 ande even then it's conditional 23:02:16 great synergy with formicid stabbers 23:02:18 :p 23:02:19 lol 23:02:19 one of the reasons I like ru so much is because his auras function in that way tho 23:02:27 but i think the danger of getting one shotted from edge of LOS is a vastly overstated problem anyway 23:02:31 -!- Eronarn__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:45 ru is straight overpowered, imho, and not a great design for crawl since ru is so very build-independent 23:02:54 hm 23:02:56 howso? 23:03:08 i would argue that ru is quite bad for hybrids 23:03:09 I don't think ru is build-independent 23:03:11 this is an extremely personal opinion and not likely backed up by stats since his sacrifices are so important 23:03:11 I would not play a pure caster of ru 23:03:13 ru is great, but the things you give up are legitimate maluses 23:03:22 but whenever I play with ru, I always feel like ru is doing so much more work than my character is 23:03:33 well, your character is a lot weaker with ru :) 23:03:36 <|amethyst> that's in part b 23:03:37 an excellent point 23:03:39 <|amethyst> what PF said 23:03:41 if you disagree I invite you to play a cj of ru that uses spells as his primary killdudes 23:03:53 playing a primary cj is its own sacrifice 23:04:01 well ok true 23:04:02 ru is good if you're fine with giving things up, but a mifi has much more he's willing to sacrifice (e.g. arcana) than a hybrid or even 'pure caster' 23:04:02 <|amethyst> Ru is the stabber god, right? 23:04:06 er... 23:04:07 lol 23:04:13 i haven't won a ru game yet, but that's a combination of using suboptimal builds to begin with with ru, and also being a little gunshy on using ru powers 23:04:23 the drain cost 23:04:23 ru is a great stabbing god 23:04:28 he is 23:04:33 deceptive about that though 23:04:34 PF: lol, yeah 23:04:41 ru is my favorite god because he combines passive auras that can stop you from getting owned by unexpected things with a great panic button ability 23:04:44 i know the drain cost is negligible 23:04:53 oh, it can get pretty nasty if you stack it too much 23:04:55 also he comes with a limited cblink so it's like wow best god pls never nerf 23:04:56 but i try to avoid using the abilities more than i should anyway 23:05:04 FR: revert leap attack removal 23:05:04 <|amethyst> oh, right, Ru has abilities 23:05:20 +1 23:05:24 <|amethyst> not that I am good, but I'd consider Ru on a stabber without the active abilities 23:05:25 although i did get killed as a direct result of using apocalypse in a spin cycle vault once 23:05:36 <|amethyst> just for the extra stabbability opportunities 23:05:41 surely you'd prefer gozag 23:05:46 because i forgot how fucking loud apoc is 23:05:46 especially now that i buffed distraction stabs 23:05:47 koboldina, I'm still unclear on how you'd fix cyclops oneshots without resorting to an extremely gamey solution like "monster cannot do more than X% of your max hp" or "paralyze discoverd monsters until you act again" 23:05:56 -!- qguv has quit [Quit: bye] 23:05:59 isn't k saying she's fine with the latter? 23:06:00 you buffed distraction stabs?! 23:06:00 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: and sully my precious food game? 23:06:04 I definitely wouldn't do the former 23:06:08 %git :/[Ss]tab 23:06:09 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-1089-g9c76b8a: Simplify stabbing tiers 10(2 weeks ago, 4 files, 10+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9c76b8a6886d 23:06:13 some variation of the latter doesn't seem so bad though 23:06:14 oh my 23:06:16 I mean why can't shouting just take time 23:06:17 ^ not actually committed two weeks ago 23:06:18 it takes times for players 23:06:26 why does the cyclops get to shout and also do stuff 23:06:34 do silent monsters get to act freely, then? 23:06:45 even silent monsters take some kind of wonky action when they notice you 23:06:45 <|amethyst> because that would make monsters even easier to run away from 23:06:47 jellies quiver, for instance 23:06:55 many monsters take no action 23:06:57 i believe 23:07:04 -!- gressup has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:06 mummies? 23:07:14 hmm, probably 23:07:24 flying skulls 23:07:30 don't they glare at you or something 23:07:36 no, they scream or something 23:07:40 they were once the only noisy monster in tomb 23:07:42 in the good old days 23:07:47 best monster 23:07:56 now everything is noisy. just a constant racket. sad! 23:07:56 <|amethyst> making that change sounds a lot like giving every monster the 'cantrip' spell 23:08:02 <|amethyst> which would be a huge player buff 23:08:17 well that's overstating it a little 23:08:24 PleasingFungus, this is a quality simplification. I'm looking at the code and I cannot disapprove of any part of it 23:08:28 it's not like every monster will be wasting turns multiple times per fight 23:08:33 which is what happens with cantrip 23:08:36 i think we'll probably have to nerf distraction at some point 23:08:36 <|amethyst> true 23:08:39 gozag's gold distraction was op before 23:08:51 <|amethyst> but it would mean e.g. uniques become weaker than other monsters 23:09:00 i thought flying skulls just naturally made a ton of noise because of how rad they look 23:09:00 <|amethyst> or, rather, are penalised more 23:09:19 |amethyst: i mean, if we felt that the overall game experience was better for having this mechanic, we could always nerf players in some other way. i really don't think it would be a net improvement, but 'it's a big player buff' is not an argument against the fundamental concept, i think 23:09:31 i think 23:09:47 <|amethyst> but what's the point of making monster shouts take turns? 23:09:50 <|amethyst> fairness? 23:09:53 how often do autoexplore oneshots occur 23:09:59 Brannock: very rarely! 23:10:00 almost never 23:10:01 i've never had one myself 23:10:03 amethyst: it's my personal opinion that the bottom line fun stick for any game is primarily controlled by "is this mechanic interactive or not" 23:10:07 I don't know if "fairness" is the right word for it, but 23:10:09 i'd guess once in a thousand games, depending on race ofc 23:10:21 it's more like if you lose you want the player to feel like it's their fault, not the game's fault 23:10:22 the closest I've come were rare situations of D:1-3 shafts 23:10:32 I don't think it's ever happened to me otherwise 23:10:34 most of the real bad situations that happen aren't autoexplore based anyway 23:10:38 ProzacElf: while i was biking today, i encountered a bumper sticker that was (a) a skull (b) with wings (c) colored like the american flag (d) with a flag saying LOVE IT OR JUST LEAVE IT 23:10:40 it's either shafts or blind corners 23:10:48 PleasingFungus: LOL 23:10:51 that sounds pretty rad pf 23:10:52 it was on the back of a minivan. 23:11:00 <|amethyst> koboldina: I think your first suggestion of paralysing monsters the turn the first enter view addresses that much better than making monster shouts take turns 23:11:01 minivans are extremely murican 23:11:08 was there a badass metal biker man driving the minivan, pf 23:11:09 RAD. AS. FUCK. 23:11:11 hahaha 23:11:14 couldn't see. i was behind them! 23:11:16 did he have a big beard 23:11:17 was he a mountain dwarf 23:11:18 make shafts an autoexplore trap. you only fall in if you're carelessly pressing o; walking around with hjkl you notice them 23:11:26 ehh 23:11:28 i was slightly concerned that they'd take offense at my wussy european biking ways and back over me 23:11:40 amalloy, wouldn't that incentivize players to never use autoexplore until D:5 or so? 23:11:45 thankfully i escaped their notice. 23:11:46 Brannock: it is literally the worst idea 23:11:47 Brannock: joke, i think 23:11:48 amethyst: probably so, yeah 23:11:53 of course, 23:11:56 fun fact: minivans have the same turning radius as the space shuttle crawler 23:12:02 so all you would have had to do is "turn" 23:12:19 oh yes 23:12:21 that reminds me 23:12:24 the perseids are in 6 or so hours 23:12:35 if you are in north america I recommend staying up and driving out in the country to watch them 23:12:36 ow, that long? 23:12:45 <|amethyst> re minivans, my wife has this t-shirt http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-80707182936312_2271_66079117 23:12:46 this year is particularly strong 23:12:53 because of jupiter's orbit or something 23:13:00 I'm not the astronomy nerd in my circle 23:13:08 but there's like 3x or so as many perseids this year 23:13:08 |amethyst: yahoo will be right back... 23:13:09 oh, that makes more sense than what my mom was trying to tell me 23:13:17 she was saying that it was because of where jupiter was in the sky 23:13:23 in relation to earth, I guess 23:13:28 they got caught in jupiter's orbit 23:13:29 and i was like "mom, that doesn't make any sense, jupiter wouldn't illuminate shit" 23:13:34 ah, it didn't like my browser 23:13:34 i can confirm jupiter is in the sky, in relation to earth 23:13:40 |amethyst: very good sticker 23:13:44 ze Cosmos... 23:13:45 er, shirt 23:13:46 w/e 23:13:50 |amethyst: better than megavan minifun 23:13:58 ENTER: THE MEGAVAN 23:14:03 lol 23:14:13 <|amethyst> Surveillance van sousveillance fun 23:14:38 cargo van escargot fun? 23:14:38 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:49 <|amethyst> turkish van ottoman fun 23:16:19 oh ho ho 23:17:20 incidentally, i like how the people most likely to have signage saying "america: love it or leave it" are also the ones most likely to tell you that 8 years of obama has made america a hellhole 23:17:46 clearly not taking the advice of their own bumper stickes 23:17:46 r 23:17:48 s 23:18:03 of course, bumper stickers are the only valid means of intellectual discourse imo 23:18:29 "honk if you love jorgrun" 23:18:31 mayyyybe yard signs and/or t-shirts too 23:18:33 lol 23:18:43 when can i buy an official cjr bumper sticker 23:19:04 <|amethyst> my wife has this bumper sticker: https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5484755/il_570xN.326944697.jpg 23:19:14 slo 23:19:14 mo 23:19:15 <|amethyst> I don't have bumper stickers because I don't drive 23:19:16 "if this server's rockin', don't come a knocki' 23:19:17 regarding the 'freeze monsters on entering los', I think that's a nce approach 23:19:18 n 23:19:20 your wife has all the excitement, apparently 23:19:25 <|amethyst> indeed 23:19:29 but you could make it more limited -- just prevent monsters from attacking on the turn they come into los 23:19:35 chequers, maybe only if it wasn't a full turn 23:19:38 0.5? 23:19:46 |amethyst just quietly walks to his job 23:19:46 can they cast spells? 23:19:47 and then teaches for a couple hours 23:19:47 im sure we could fit a shop icon on the homepage 23:19:47 no 23:19:48 starcursed mass scream? 23:19:53 I think that' dintroduce way too much complexity though 23:19:56 so basically they can just move on the turn they enter los 23:19:57 you'd have to flag nearly every ability in the game 23:19:59 bumper stickers, mugs 23:20:05 steal koboldina's shirt business 23:20:06 its a good idea 23:20:07 then rolls back down the hill to his home when he's done 23:20:09 if you're chei and they're speed 50 they might move next to you 23:20:14 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:28 <|amethyst> ProzacElf: fortunately it's a 5-minute walk, except I'm teaching on the other end of campus this upcoming semester so it's more like a 20 or 30 minute walk 23:20:29 but it will always seem like they ran out of action points just as they hit you 23:20:33 FR: more speed 50 creatures to fuck with chei worshippers 23:20:33 this feels like it's going to introduce a ton of new problems to fix an incredibly rare corner case 23:20:40 |amethyst: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23:20:43 @??bat perm_ench:haste 23:20:43 bat (15b) | Spd: 45 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-4 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Dam: 1 | see invisible, fly | Res: 08blind | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 23:20:44 I agree with PF 23:20:44 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:46 close 23:20:57 it's a shitty corner case! 23:20:57 <|amethyst> hm 23:21:06 but... 23:21:08 I've played like 2500 games of crawl online, and another thousand or so offline and I've never been O-oneshotted 23:21:11 <|amethyst> isn't there already a similar corner case in energy randomization? 23:21:12 anecdotal 23:21:15 <|amethyst> not sure how that's implemented 23:21:28 energy randomization only applies to movement actions, not others, if that's what you mean 23:21:31 <|amethyst> ah 23:21:32 there is the occasional forum post about the 'open door get banished' sort of thing 23:21:33 <|amethyst> that's it 23:21:37 i've gotten hammered by bad randomization way more than walking into LOS of something that can technically one hit kill me 23:21:46 banishment is far more preferable to shafted imho 23:21:48 brannock I'm not even just talking about 0-oneshots tho, like if you are in combat and you end up having to run because some other crap entered los that you can't handle, and you're at 50% hp, and you go to escape, turn a corner, and eat an instant death 23:21:52 but yes, I agree this is a rare event, but I do lean towards it being a rare event that should be dealt with 23:21:55 that's still pretty uninteractive 23:22:02 you didn't have a chance to 'react' to the threat 23:22:16 --force more-- 'Is that your final answer?' 23:22:25 -!- Twinge has quit [Client Quit] 23:22:33 well, on that death, people can point to philosophy section and say you committed a strategic, not tactical, error 23:22:42 we can use whoever's idea for a purgatory branch 23:22:45 should have trained fighting all the way back at D:6 23:22:47 send people there the first time they die 23:22:47 you should have retreated at higher hp, to known location, and should have kited, blah blah blah 23:22:48 I basically am of the opinion that the player should always have at least one chance to make a choice and not be surprised by something completely new 23:22:58 if they get the rune and get back out they can continue 23:23:12 -!- cait has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:23:22 chequers I can appreciate that but... ok, so it's like the whole paralyze argument -- I actually think paralyze doesn't break the rule I lined out because you always know when paralysis is a possibility, so you have a chance to plan for it 23:23:28 "strategic not tactical" redirects a lot of blame though 23:23:46 !blame 23:23:47 I pronounce Brannock... Guilty! 23:23:53 so that would be a strategic error, if you roll up into orc with no mr, try to fight a pile of stuff + orc sorc, get paralyzed and die 23:24:02 that's tactical 23:24:04 -!- minqmay has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:07 well the decision to go into orc at all 23:24:08 koboldina: if you run away and get surprised paralyzed where does that fall 23:24:09 with no mr 23:24:10 is more strategic 23:24:21 i guess i'm just saying that i don't think it's worth revamping a huge amount of what already works to get rid of a problem that doesn't crop up often? 23:24:22 can I'd say that falls more into the problem area 23:24:54 HOP doesn't crop up often but it's fixed whenever possible 23:24:56 HOP? 23:24:56 what? 23:25:02 hypothetical optimal play 23:25:04 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:05 I assume 23:25:05 thank you 23:25:06 hypothetically optimal play problems crop up constantly 23:25:09 what are you talking about 23:25:19 I believe the player should pretty much always have a chance to look at the screen and say "these are all the pieces on the board, and I know everything that can happen if I make a move in this direction" 23:25:21 well yeah, i agree we should stop people from playing optimally 23:25:21 -!- Bcadren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:22 =p 23:25:23 relatively being the operative here I suppose PF 23:25:23 <|amethyst> BTW 23:25:29 koboldina: maybe you want to play a game without randomization? 23:25:33 <|amethyst> there is a paragraph about this in the philosophy 23:25:34 hmm 23:25:38 the fact that the game is larger than a single screen 23:25:39 <|amethyst> the second paragraph 23:25:46 seems to make this a non-starter 23:25:47 <|amethyst> "The possibility of unavoidable deaths is a larger topic in computer games." 23:26:07 I wouldn't go that far pf -- every game needs randomization, it's not like I'm arguing that swords should always do 10 + str damage or something 23:26:23 I think it's more like fog of war + randomization that I'm arguing against as a 'fun' thing 23:26:27 but, again, the game is larger than a single screen, and has fog of war. 23:26:31 ok. 23:26:32 -!- Sonata has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:26:34 you should play a game that's not crawl. 23:26:43 PF, 'often' compared to 'the totality of how many turns are actually played' I guess? I'm contrasting it against the idea of 'do something unexpected/excessively to obtain optimal results' 23:26:52 not even really fog of war + randomization tho, just like, specific interactions 23:27:08 like if mara shows up in the middle of a combat and you have to readjust your strategy or even run away? that's fun and exciting 23:27:24 -!- minmay has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:27:27 when a stone giant shows up in the middle of a combat and oneshots you? that's not fun 23:27:41 there's no bright line there. 23:27:54 the bright line is that the player has a turn to react to the new information. 23:28:01 well, for my dollar, the d:1 gnoll or adder or jackal pack right by the entrance is way more infuriating than stone giant showing up in orc 23:28:02 mara can't throw 50 damage at you 23:28:09 !killratio mara 23:28:09 @??mara 23:28:09 Mara (13R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 117-169 | AC/EV: 12/14 | Dam: 30 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140), 05fire++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 8010 | Sp: pain (d17) [06!sil], b.fire (3d27) [06!sil], mara summon [06!sil], sum.illusion [06!sil], blink [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 23:28:12 mara wins 2.417% of battles. 23:28:15 prozacelf: I'd agree with that 23:28:15 uh, 3d27??? 23:28:17 mara certainly can throw 50 damage at you 23:28:19 even if the stone giant can one shot you, you should have a way to get out of it by then 23:28:20 mara can't throw 50 damage at you? 23:28:24 news to me 23:28:25 hmm 23:28:25 !lg * killer=mara max=dam x=dam 23:28:26 434. [dam=93] execc the Eclecticist (L15 MuSu of Sif Muna), blasted by Mara (bolt of fire) on D:20 (dragon1_lemuel) on 2012-03-06 19:31:22, with 83035 points after 45929 turns and 3:46:19. 23:28:26 Don't fight Mara 23:28:28 does bolt of fire reach all the way across los? 23:28:29 pew 23:28:35 koboldina: corners exist 23:28:37 I guess it doesn't matter if you turn a corner and there she is 23:28:37 yeah 23:28:39 it doesn't need to reach..yeah 23:28:39 !lg . killer=mara x=dam 23:28:39 fair 23:28:39 No games for ProzacElf (killer=mara). 23:28:42 oh 23:28:43 ??bolt of fire 23:28:43 haha 23:28:43 bolt of fire[1/1]: A level 6 conj/fire penetrating beam attack that can hit multiple opponents in a line for pure fire damage. Does six dice with a maximum of (18 + (power * 2) / 3). At power 50 it does 6d8 damage; at power 100 it does 6d14. As with any fire-based beams, produces steam if it passes over water. To-hit: 10+power/25. 23:28:45 mara is still a he, i think 23:28:56 ??gender 23:28:56 gender[1/3]: Roka, Nikola, and Mara are all guys. 23:28:58 !lg . max=dam x=dam 23:28:59 4132. [dam=96] ProzacElf the Warrior (L24 CeSk of Gozag), demolished by a juggernaut on Depths:5 (hangedman_slaughterboxes) on 2015-11-22 10:41:12, with 510340 points after 88300 turns and 5:58:38. 23:29:05 I often forget the genders of uniques with neutral names 23:29:06 range 6, yes 23:29:09 wow, disappointing 23:29:13 koboldina: the problem is the terminating a, i think 23:29:17 koboldina, roughly 50% the gender you're not thinking of 23:29:19 probably pf 23:29:20 mara and nikola have always been guys 23:29:29 -!- Wye has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:29 well nikola is easy for me because tesla was a guy 23:29:35 roka was too, dunno if still is? 23:29:43 roka is also easy because he's a big chested orc man 23:29:47 I guess mara confuses me because it's like 23:29:48 a demon in a robe 23:29:49 ??zarya 23:29:49 I don't have a page labeled zarya in my learndb. 23:29:52 with an a-name 23:30:03 it's based on a demon from buddhist mythology 23:30:05 well, urug looks the same as always but now she has something covering her chest 23:30:05 of the same name 23:30:09 mara should be genderless really 23:30:12 that's pretty neat 23:30:16 demons are demoniac 23:30:16 because apparently she gained breasts with the sex change 23:30:27 mara is a he in buddhist myth though 23:30:38 so if mara is actually based on mara then he should stay a he 23:30:48 extremely important 23:30:51 I think mara's actual reference is a bit murky 23:30:54 fr mara name changed to shiva 23:30:55 it's a little weird that we steal these specific mythological characters from real religions 23:31:00 or maybe rename him altogether if we want to get out of cultural misappropriation 23:31:02 like if mennas was called Gabriel 23:31:03 uh 23:31:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_%28demon%29 23:31:10 "In some accounts of the Buddha's enlightenment, it is said that the demon Māra didn't send her" 23:31:12 ??? 23:31:13 o wait shiva is a guy too 23:31:14 i... don't think that mara was originally based on the buddhist mara 23:31:17 I think it's neat crawl is grounded in actual mythology 23:31:19 at least, not directly 23:31:20 cf Shoals 23:31:21 speaking of lord shiva it was serpent day 2 days ago 23:31:22 mara's dialogue has quotes from the buddhist demon 23:31:31 he's the lord of illusion. 23:31:44 i don't know what more you want. 23:31:46 was mara the unique with that "I have 20 islands quote" that gammafunk hated 23:31:51 hm 23:31:58 maybe i'm misremembering 23:32:00 my buddy who moved to nepal lives about 1 mile from the holiest place related to shiva 23:32:06 @The_monster@ boasts, "I am lord over the four continents and the two thousand adjacent isles." 23:32:13 yes, that quote 23:32:17 and had some old guy come by and affix a shrine over his door with cow shit 23:32:22 awesome 23:32:38 heh 23:32:43 anyway mara is apparently female in buddhism 23:32:53 unless there's like, multiple maras 23:33:20 i've seen both genders referenced, iirc 23:33:21 wikipedia suggests female, although the primary image has mara with a mustache 23:33:28 I think it's just like any other demon 23:33:29 http://buddhism.about.com/od/iconsofbuddhism/a/mara.htm e.g. 23:33:32 switches as they please 23:33:35 brannock: those are uh 23:33:37 teeth 23:33:37 brb, submitting a patch to rename Nikolo and Maro 23:33:41 or as the storyteller prefers 23:33:45 snaggled teeth... 23:33:46 lol 23:33:59 i was about to link to the exact same thing PleasingFungus 23:34:09 cf: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/324751823102128177 23:34:25 wasn't there someone a couple years back that was upset about crawl's portrayal of middle-eastern and eastern figures 23:34:28 pf what would you think if it was, instead of paralysis, just something that stopped monsters from using ranged attacks/spells/etc when they pop into line of sight 23:34:33 I guess that sounds even more corner casey 23:34:33 I remember there being a large tavern thread over it 23:34:40 it seems very bad, yes. 23:34:49 secret tech for players to learn. 23:34:57 "always be slowed while exploring" 23:34:57 like the existing weird "free turn when descending into a new level" tech. 23:35:11 brannock: it was the djinn description 23:35:17 which was, to be fair, pretty stupid 23:35:18 oh yeah 23:35:19 just make a bunch of those weird spoilery rules 23:35:23 and then djinn was removed anywa 23:35:23 y 23:35:29 and make them all apply on different holidays 23:35:41 That criticism was very weird 23:35:46 National Pork Awareness Day: Kirke ignores player MR 23:35:51 koboldina: seems like it could encourage really weird behavior involving getting monsters in and out of LOS 23:36:05 especially if you yourself are using ranged attacks 23:36:14 big amulet of harm buff! 23:36:15 :) 23:36:21 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:40 Boxing Day: Box of beasts never disappears 23:36:41 well my idea to avoid abuse of anytyhing like this was to make it only apply the first time a monster enters los, if it leaves los and comes back in then it would act as it does now 23:37:00 that's a lot of flagging 23:37:11 wouldn't that... not solve the original problem 23:37:25 well the idea is to not be surprised with an instant death 23:37:30 you could have a monster you've seen before suddenly appear somewhere you didn't expect it to because of say, a teleport trap 23:37:40 but you know it's on the floor at that point 23:37:46 -!- qguv has quit [Quit: bye] 23:37:51 yeah but let's say 23:37:55 you're on a segmented part of orc 23:38:05 and you move to a different segment and oh hey that sorceror reappeared 23:38:19 which is functionally identical to just spawning a second orc sorceror in that area :v 23:38:24 well 23:38:24 true 23:38:27 ##crawl-dev-2009-12.log:20:23 <+due> Mara is a male demon from Buddhist mythology. 23:38:34 yeah, guess i was thinking of something else 23:39:01 <|amethyst> hm 23:39:13 <|amethyst> Sharnga (in Crawl) predates stone soup 23:39:18 huh! 23:39:24 remember my big fuckup with sharnga 23:39:28 that was god times 23:39:30 <|amethyst> :) 23:39:32 *good? 23:39:46 periods at the end of irc messages, going to have to add due to my list of Probably Psychos 23:39:47 at least i got my big dumb joke commit message in 23:39:51 *Probable 23:40:02 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: I should post that, and snark's reply, to /r/quityourbullshit :) 23:40:24 noo 23:40:32 man, what a weirdly specialized reddit 23:40:41 gammafunk did I tell you I got a big order of custom kiku art shirts 23:40:47 oh yeah? 23:40:47 !!! 23:40:48 hahaha they have anthony clark's comic in the corner 23:40:49 which one 23:40:50 what a good comic 23:40:52 I need to order some shirts soon 23:41:08 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:20 CanOfWorms: koboldina has some 23:41:38 the horrifying one you are scared of, gamma 23:41:38 that seems suspect 23:41:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:05 <|amethyst> koboldina: were these Crawl players, or metal fans? 23:42:07 you said if anyone ordered one I should call the police 23:42:12 they also asked me to cut myself and bleed all over the shirts before I mailed them, they said it was important for "the ritual" 23:42:17 also I made this up nobody ordered a kiku shirt 23:42:23 <|amethyst> aww 23:42:40 Ki ku baa qud gha 23:42:57 kee coo baa coo dag ha 23:42:59 clearly 23:43:01 canofworms I made a goofy new shirt today that has nothing to do with dcss 23:43:05 :O 23:43:06 it says "baesexual" on it 23:43:11 haha 23:43:11 rip hive 23:43:12 I remember that 23:43:21 I told you to make it baisexual and put bai suzhen's tile on it 23:43:33 i'm sure she would if you ordered one 23:43:45 -!- adibis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:02 I have a bunch of shirt ideas lined up to order, just need to get them all ready 23:44:21 <|amethyst> IMO someone should buy Crawl shirts from koboldina and send them unsolicited to Jeph Jacques 23:44:47 <|amethyst> with an offer to commission a splash screen :) 23:45:09 man, i haven't heard about that guy in a while 23:45:25 ...right, he made the dcss comic! 23:45:47 <|amethyst> http://jephjacques.com/post/107833496730/i-beat-dungeon-crawl 23:45:59 <|amethyst> BALBALBLB the Axe Maniac 23:46:03 good name 23:46:12 now, to get him to goodplayer... 23:46:26 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 23:46:29 did he actually make a dcss comic? 23:46:33 I thought he just posted his morgue 23:46:46 it showed up in one of his comics 23:46:47 <|amethyst> moment, let me get the link 23:46:50 -!- Homage_ has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 23:46:56 also, a minotaur berserker of trog with 4 spellcasting 23:46:58 nice 23:47:14 that reminds me of the time I decided to learn spells as a OgBe just to see what would happen 23:47:26 that ogbe ain't dead yet! 23:47:30 vamp baxe and +10 pda, you better not lose 23:47:49 did you see, hm 23:48:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:48:41 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20752&p=280248 23:49:04 lol, no distortion 23:49:20 his concern about them is not that they will kill him 23:49:26 <|amethyst> CanOfWorms: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1895 23:49:28 his concern is that they will make him (or her, sorry) OP 23:49:37 <|amethyst> !learn add questionablecontent http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1895 23:49:37 questionablecontent[1/1]: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1895 23:49:40 well, that's still true with distortion right 23:49:50 people underestimate distortion as an actual weapon type. 23:49:55 probably because it's so annoying to use. 23:50:12 I was playing a muar a while ago and actually decided to use a distortion spear 23:50:23 sadly that muar died to a necromancer in an ice cave 23:50:51 I didn't realize gammafunk was in the comic 23:51:01 disto is like my favorite weapon time pf 23:51:03 type* 23:51:11 anything that can one shot oofs is good 23:51:30 so chaos is in second place? 23:52:06 well 23:52:14 chaos basically never abysses things so no 23:52:18 freezing is in second place 23:52:30 chaos can paralyze, which is basically an instant death :v 23:52:30 someone wanted me to add malmut to chaos effects 23:52:34 can it paralyze oofs? 23:52:39 probably 23:52:44 eh 23:52:50 generally dislike chaos 23:52:55 not a big fan of enraging funga bungas 23:53:32 btw koboldina 23:53:42 your legendary foar^chei is now tvable 23:53:54 you can relive the glory days of 5 step from times 23:54:08 did she live 23:54:19 did I win that one 23:54:23 yes 23:54:26 it was amazing 23:54:27 I forget why I did that 23:54:29 it was from oofs right 23:54:34 you shafted to Z:5 without realizing it 23:54:37 LOL oh 23:54:42 !lg koboldina foar log 23:54:43 2. koboldina, XL27 FoAr, T:113908: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/koboldina/morgue-koboldina-20160702-035153.txt 23:54:55 o boy 23:54:57 I would have been pretty upset to lose that 23:54:59 a 15 runer 23:55:24 let me see if I can get the correct tv query for this 23:55:56 hopefully I can bury that tv of me dying to my own oklob farm 23:55:59 under a mountain of tvs of me winning 23:56:04 you can't! 23:56:11 it's immortalized on tavern. 23:56:55 -!- Nomi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:48 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:44 what 23:58:45 somebody posted it/ 23:59:07 yes. 23:59:10 IT WAS ME. 23:59:15 it was a really good tv 23:59:18 shirts now cost $500 if you are canofowrms 23:59:20 worms* 23:59:22 maybe something we should somehow fix 23:59:24 but a good tv 23:59:28 good thing I'm wormsofcan 23:59:32 grr