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00:11:24 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-934-gf1df8d1 (34)
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01:16:37 <Rotatell> Thalamas (L8 MfGl)  (D:3)
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02:13:57 <Rotatell> kelbaugc (L10 DrGl) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 418 failed. (D:11)
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03:16:44 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-934-gf1df8d1 (34)
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03:42:37 <Cheibriados> 03regret-index02 07* 0.19-a0-935-g8d580a1: Sort mon-spell.h (plus some other monster files) 10(4 minutes ago, 4 files, 1210+ 1117-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8d580a1596ba
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03:48:16 <Cheibriados> 03regret-index02 07* 0.19-a0-936-gcfeccc4: Trim spells off of Kirke, Ignacio, ancient champions 10(22 seconds ago, 2 files, 3+ 15-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cfeccc49f06e
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04:08:50 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-936-gcfeccc4 (34)
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04:27:59 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 8d580a1 #6144 : regret-index): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/142973587
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04:49:08 <Cheibriados> New branch created: wizard-and-ogre-mage-schism (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/wizard-and-ogre-mage-schism
04:49:08 <Cheibriados> 03regret-index02 07[wizard-and-ogre-mage-schism] * 0.19-a0-937-ged7de84: Split ogre mage and wizard spell sets, alter both (elliptic) 10(2 minutes ago, 4 files, 42+ 69-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ed7de841f4fc
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05:07:18 <gammafunk> fine, you can have the award for longest branch name
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05:47:01 <travis-ci> The build passed. (wizard-and-ogre-mage-schism - ed7de84 #6146 : regret-index): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/142985810
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08:24:16 <Cheibriados> Broken spell targeting. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10553 by Ololoev
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08:38:32 <shmup> |amethyst: chat with me more about the color changing based on client.X/20, client.Y/20 sometime, whenever
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08:46:34 <wheals> hm, i can't reproduce that bug trivially
08:47:46 <shmup> i've never done wizmode, but is a step in problem solving getting the layout similar: monster X/Y away, same positioning?
08:47:49 <shmup> @ wheals
08:47:57 <wheals> yes
08:48:08 <shmup> is that fairly trivial in wizmode?
08:48:16 <shmup> i should poke around in wizmode sometime
08:48:23 <wheals> yes, it is
08:49:03 <wheals> i wonder if the boulder beetle is somehow stuck in a closed door
08:49:29 <wheals> no, that gives different behaviour
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10:54:06 <Lasty_1> Who was it that was considering renaming "damnation"? A recent thread suggested that it be replaced by "the power of Hell", and while longer, that seems pretty much better to me.
10:54:25 <Lasty_1> You are engulfed by the power of Hell!
10:54:33 <Lasty_1> Or maybe "the fury of hell" or "the wrath of Hell"
10:55:11 <Lasty_1> "The fury of Hell explodes around you!"
10:55:45 <Lasty_1> Another suggestion was "erasure" -- "the erasure engulfs you!"
10:57:08 <Lasty_1> %git :/[sS]phere of [dD]amnation
10:57:08 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit :/[sS]phere of [dD]amnation (git returned 128)
10:57:13 <Lasty_1> %git :/[sS]phere
10:57:13 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.19-a0-780-g1046fb2: Remove Spellforged Servitor and Battlesphere from pan lord spell lists 10(12 days ago, 1 file, 0+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1046fb2b1933
10:57:50 <Lasty_1> !tell marvinpa Do I recall correctly that you were interested in renaming damnation? If so, what do you think of the suggestions above this tell?
10:57:51 <Sequell> Lasty_1: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
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11:37:53 <MarvinPA> !tell Lasty not me, i am quite uninterested in yet more bikeshedding there!
11:37:54 <Sequell> MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
11:37:54 <Sequell> MarvinPA: OK, I'll let lasty know.
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11:58:30 <elliptic> Lasty: sorry, my only motivation in renaming spells in crawl is to increase the number of spheres
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12:08:48 <shmup> lol
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12:59:00 <PleasingFungus> !crashlog kelbaugc
12:59:01 <Sequell> 1. kelbaugc, XL10 DrGl, T:7306 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/kelbaugc/crash-kelbaugc-20160707-061347.txt
12:59:05 <PleasingFungus> !crashlog Thalamas
12:59:06 <Sequell> 4. Thalamas, XL8 MfGl, T:4928 (milestone): http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Thalamas/crash-Thalamas-20160707-051627.txt
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13:00:17 <PleasingFungus> !source elven_twin_died
13:00:18 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-death.cc#l3205
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13:14:07 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.19-a0-936-gcfeccc4 (34)
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14:25:28 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: how 'bout you? Power of Hell vs. damnation?
14:25:52 <PleasingFungus> obviously i'm biased, but i still think damnation is a very evocative and fun name
14:26:14 <PleasingFungus> power of hell could be ok, but it's longer, more awkward, and yet more bikeshedding
14:26:31 <Lasty_> I felt that it was less awkward, which was my motivation for the bikeshedding
14:26:45 <PleasingFungus> count the syllables, my friend...
14:26:54 <PleasingFungus> S.R.E.A.M
14:27:07 <amalloy> we already have hell's mystical force
14:27:13 <amalloy> do we want the power of hell to be something totally unrelated?
14:28:00 <PleasingFungus> as i posted in the thread, i do like the idea of merging smiting & damnation thematically
14:28:49 <PleasingFungus> i'm not sure how exactly that would work, but it'd be very helpful for players having a chance of understanding what damnation does, if they're encountering it from d:3 onward
14:28:58 <PleasingFungus> damnation and super damnation
14:30:11 <PleasingFungus> smiting and exploding smiting
14:31:56 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: more syllables isn't the sole determiner of awkwardness. IMO it's much more awkward to have a word that designates a state of being serve the purpose of a hostile force than to use more syllables.
14:32:34 <Lasty_> I suppose there's the argument that just invoking "hell" at all feels fiery tho
14:32:39 <PleasingFungus> enh
14:32:47 <PleasingFungus> i wouldn't worry about that last
14:33:24 <PleasingFungus> i personally enjoy the concept of 'damnation' as some amorphous merger between a state of being and an anathematic/destructive substance
14:33:44 <PleasingFungus> it's sort of hard to find conceptual space for things that are evil that aren't already taken by other effects
14:33:58 <PleasingFungus> 'negative energy', and, as amalloy noted, 'the power of hell' is actually also already taken
14:34:09 <PleasingFungus> er, *'negative energy' is taken
14:36:23 <PleasingFungus> torment/pain are taken too, ofc...
14:36:53 <PleasingFungus> weird magical nuclear/radiation stuff (as someone was suggesting in the thread), taken. distorting space, taken
14:40:13 <PleasingFungus> merging with smiting in some way would be nice for the reasons I mentioned earlier, and also so that you wouldn't have to find a new thematic space to explore. however, you'd also have to deal with non-smitey hellfire and non-religious hellfire.
14:40:24 <PleasingFungus> i guess smoke demons already have non-religious smiting?
14:41:24 <amalloy> PleasingFungus: fun side note: hostile smoke demons summoned through makhleb's ab have religious smiting
14:42:02 <PleasingFungus> philosophical question: is the "marking god gifts through setting monster religion" thing a hack or a feature?
14:42:39 <amalloy> i didn't even know till right now that that's why they have their religion set
14:44:15 <gammafunk> is the god gift marking used when deciding to award things through TSO or beogh?
14:44:21 <gammafunk> Not even sure how that's used
14:45:07 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: ?
14:45:13 <PleasingFungus> i don't quite understand what you mean
14:46:07 <gammafunk> I guess I'm asking: "How is the marking god gifts thing even used?"
14:46:47 <gammafunk> maybe that's what you were asking as well!
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14:47:43 <PleasingFungus> it's used for a couple of things - e.g. which monsters are affected by yred/beogh recall
14:48:17 <PleasingFungus> tso god gifts get abjuration protection
14:48:40 <gammafunk> yeah that's what I was talking about with "deciding to award things through TSO"
14:48:45 <PleasingFungus> "things'
14:48:54 <PleasingFungus> "things" is a good word. really communicates a lot.
14:48:56 <PleasingFungus> :p
14:50:01 <gammafunk> alright
14:50:42 <PleasingFungus> i suspect it affects nothing for makhleb
14:50:49 <PleasingFungus> beyond the aforementioned messaging
14:50:50 <PleasingFungus> but not sure
14:51:05 <PleasingFungus> oh wait i lied
14:51:28 <PleasingFungus> if you abandon makhleb and still have makh summons active, they go hostile
14:52:21 <PleasingFungus> critical crawl functionality
14:53:01 <gammafunk> Lasty_: I'm not sure if any of the retheming will help you deal with remaining 'issues' about fire<->"damnation" association, but brimstone fiends still have that going on
14:53:32 <gammafunk> @??brimstone_fiend
14:53:32 <Gretell> Brimstone Fiend (041) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 82-117 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Dam: 25, 15, 15 | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 05damnation, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 12drown, 08holy++ | XP: 3314 | Sp: hurl damnation (3d20) [06!sil], s.torment [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
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14:56:31 <gammafunk> Lasty_: "You may want to get that I literally don't know. Anyways, I hope to find games more fun IMO." That sounds pretty quotable even
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14:58:43 <PleasingFungus> i think it's ok if some fire monsters have damnation as long as not all damnation monsters are fire-based
14:58:57 <wheals> hellsmite
14:59:10 <PleasingFungus> mega-smite 64 ds
14:59:28 <amalloy> demonfury
14:59:29 <shmup> cleaned it up a bit gammafunk :} http://crawl.neocities.org/glyphs.html
14:59:36 <PleasingFungus> amalloy: obviously resisted with clarity
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14:59:42 <shmup> I'll stop spamming about this soon enough. just let the new dumb side project alure wear off
14:59:53 <shmup> allure? allure.
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15:00:06 <PleasingFungus> no worries
15:01:10 <amalloy> PleasingFungus: hellfarts
15:01:32 <gammafunk> shmup: very nice. Are you going to have this update automatically by any chance?
15:01:55 <PleasingFungus> amalloy: a poison irresistible by rpois...
15:01:58 <PleasingFungus> i guess that's miasma
15:02:14 <shmup> gammafunk: yeah, I'll throw it on http://cantcode.com/crawl at a point but when I rolled up a neocities page for crawl something, I had no clue I was going to be making something I wanted updated reguarly/automatically
15:02:32 <gammafunk> shmup: well, when you do feel free to add it to the glyphs learndb entry
15:02:41 <shmup> gammafunk: absolutely
15:02:50 <PleasingFungus> damnation monsters
15:02:51 <PleasingFungus> fire: brimstone fiend*, azrael, drac scorcher, asmodeus
15:02:53 <PleasingFungus> non-fire: hellion, hell sentinel, de high priest, de sorcerer, dispater, hellbinder, drac zealot
15:03:19 <PleasingFungus> brimstone fiend is only fire in terms of resists and placement, not damage, of course
15:10:49 <kryft> Has the chance to generate hides dropped recently or am I just extremely unlucky?
15:11:11 <PleasingFungus> enter a world. a world called... the clustering illusion!!!
15:11:13 <PleasingFungus> or a bug
15:11:37 <PleasingFungus> looks like the former, tho.
15:12:12 <kryft> It's an outlier, not an illusion :P
15:13:24 <wheals> your case is the outlier, the illusion is that the code itself changed
15:28:13 <kryft> Well, the probability of observing the current outcome is around 0.002, so it seemed like a reasonable question :)
15:29:00 <PleasingFungus> fr: if your god hates a given dragon type (e.g. tso / golden dragons), they should ban hides generating of that dragon type
15:29:05 <PleasingFungus> it would be Consistent.
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15:39:15 <wheals> nah, they should just excommunicate you for wearing them
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15:50:17 <CanOfWorms> apparently leda's liquefaction prevents bat form, but not dragon form
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15:50:53 <PleasingFungus> nice
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15:51:23 <PleasingFungus> status: just spent twenty minutes drawing a stomp icon, only to find that one already exists but isn't hooked up in the code.
15:51:30 <CanOfWorms> nice.
15:53:56 <PleasingFungus> at least i feel better in some sense. i knew i'd seen cool colorful usk icons, but they weren't referenced anywhere in the code...
15:54:40 <PleasingFungus> http://i.imgur.com/LhwnXbK.png if you're curious.
15:54:52 <CanOfWorms> nice
15:54:56 <PleasingFungus> it would probably have fit right in to crawl about ~2 years ago
15:55:00 <CanOfWorms> haha
15:55:54 <PleasingFungus> all the crawl icons had that weird orange flesh tone then, too
15:56:09 <CanOfWorms> praise denzi
15:56:35 <CanOfWorms> at least, I think denzi was responsible for most of the old spell/invo icons
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15:57:38 <PleasingFungus> !lg lasty tiles
15:57:39 <Sequell> 2. Lasty the Slayer (L25 MiBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2016-05-21 11:15:05, with 1992017 points after 48943 turns and 2:55:45.
15:57:46 <PleasingFungus> huh
15:57:55 <PleasingFungus> more recently than i expected
15:58:06 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-937-gb3fecf5: Hook up Uskayaw's ability icons 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 10+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3fecf5d98cf
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16:08:45 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-937-gb3fecf5 (34)
16:10:18 <Cheibriados> 03IronicDongz02 {PleasingFungus} 07* 0.19-a0-938-ga5bfcd2: Additional zombie tiles 10(12 hours ago, 14 files, 51+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a5bfcd2a61d7
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16:47:17 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: I played on tiles in Germany because the laptop I had displayed console really badly, and I didn't want to spend the time to fix it.
16:47:35 <Lasty_> gammafunk: yeah, I really liked that one
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16:47:51 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - b3fecf5 #6147 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/143150679
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16:49:01 <PleasingFungus> Lasty: i was messing around with uskayaw when trying to reproduce that pain bond crash, and the usk tiles experience was... unloved
16:49:21 <PleasingFungus> pain bond should probably have an icon
16:50:22 <ontoclasm> :/
16:50:26 <PleasingFungus> ?
16:50:38 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: i can do that, however
16:50:44 <PleasingFungus> why the face
16:50:57 <ontoclasm> i would really appreciate it if somebody would refactor the status-icon code
16:51:08 <PleasingFungus> ahhh
16:51:20 <PleasingFungus> it doesn't help that it's in two different languages
16:51:22 <ontoclasm> yes
16:51:26 <PleasingFungus> but yeah it's one of those systems that was reasonable when there were, like, three icons
16:51:29 <PleasingFungus> but not so much now
16:51:37 <PleasingFungus> also i'm constantly terrified that we're gonna run out of bits
16:51:45 <ontoclasm> and involves adding to a bitfield that is already so long it has to be an array in js
16:51:49 <ontoclasm> yes
16:51:49 <PleasingFungus> i have no idea how large those flags can go but they already look - yeah
16:51:58 <gammafunk> wow, I have a really weird bug in my game on cjr right now
16:52:04 <PleasingFungus> is it tile icons
16:52:13 <gammafunk> it is death scarab warping
16:52:25 <ontoclasm> nice band name
16:52:30 <gammafunk> I move around a glass box
16:52:43 <gammafunk> to where I inexplicably have a friendly death scarab still alive
16:52:46 <gammafunk> when I move onto it
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16:52:53 <gammafunk> it warps to a position near where I moved from
16:53:03 <gammafunk> and then warps back when I walk back to it
16:53:10 <gammafunk> it should have expired a long time ago
16:53:14 <gammafunk> and it's not moving towards me
16:53:30 <gammafunk> really weird
16:53:34 <gammafunk> I gave it a tf
16:53:37 <gammafunk> now it's following
16:53:46 <PleasingFungus> hm
16:53:48 <gammafunk> now it expired
16:53:53 <PleasingFungus> spooky
16:53:55 <PleasingFungus> your game was...
16:53:57 <PleasingFungus> infested....
16:54:02 <gammafunk> it's almost like it got target locked onto the monster in that glass box
16:54:15 <gammafunk> hrm
16:54:20 <gammafunk> maybe that's just exactly what it was
16:54:28 <PleasingFungus> unrelated, but
16:54:30 <gammafunk> but why didn't it run back to me when I went out of los?
16:54:33 <PleasingFungus> didn't we change friendly monsters to not open doors
16:54:34 <PleasingFungus> at some point
16:54:40 <PleasingFungus> they do right now, but i could swear i remembered...
16:55:12 <PleasingFungus> *friendly monsters do currently open doors
16:55:13 <gammafunk> I think my problem might have to do with using ta to monsters you can't path to, or maybe it got this target automatically
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17:08:41 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-938-ga5bfcd2 (34)
17:09:42 <PleasingFungus> wow, i tried to reply to an arrhy post, and it vanished between hitting 'quote' and 'reply'
17:09:57 <CanOfWorms> it was a lost soul...
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17:10:30 <PleasingFungus> it was a really bad post.
17:10:54 <CanOfWorms> the really bad post flickers and vanishes.
17:13:25 <gammafunk> it vanished because it was deleted
17:14:10 <PleasingFungus> i figured
17:14:30 <PleasingFungus> i sent arrhy a pm expressing fatherly disappointment in him
17:15:04 <CanOfWorms> not an avuncular disappointment?
17:15:09 <PleasingFungus> !!
17:23:30 <ebering> why are angels relec?
17:23:31 <minmay> that was a great post what are you talking about
17:24:21 <PleasingFungus> using 'autismal' as an insult isn't really ideal, and using 'spider-rape' as an insult reminds me about the spider rape saga.
17:24:24 <debo> ebering: it's a relec of the past
17:24:29 <PleasingFungus> frankly i would prefer never to be reminded of that.
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17:34:04 <dpeg> I can freely edit temple.des without hampering saves?
17:35:15 <PleasingFungus> as long as you don't rename or delete any vaults
17:35:26 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: didn't plan to
17:35:35 <PleasingFungus> do you have a fix for that weird circular temple issue?
17:35:43 <PleasingFungus> folding like six vaults into one has made it... complex
17:35:56 <dpeg> I am looking at it right now.
17:35:57 <minmay> renaming and deleting vaults is fine for saves sure, surely? unless they're subvaults needed by another vault or something
17:36:03 <minmay> s/sure/too
17:36:07 <PleasingFungus> temple vaults are chosen at the start of the game
17:36:20 <PleasingFungus> so if you've started a game and not gotten to temple yet
17:36:30 <minmay> oh, temple vaults specifically, yes
17:36:32 <PleasingFungus> yeah
17:36:38 <PleasingFungus> this was an issue like three weeks ago?
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17:37:45 <dpeg> I only asked because the existence of temple_compat.des scared me.
17:38:11 <PleasingFungus> that was because of all the temple vaults that regret index removed/renamed a few week sago
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17:39:01 <dpeg> yes
17:39:14 <PleasingFungus> good work. go team
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17:39:29 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: Did you learn anything from the "Damnation" thread?
17:39:47 <dpeg> I know you weren't too happy with the term, but it is an improvement over "Hellfire", ofc.
17:40:16 <PleasingFungus> like i said, i like the idea of merging smiting/damnation somehow
17:40:52 <PleasingFungus> so you have basic "smiting" or "damnation" or w/e for most of the game, and then exploding damnation & hurled damnation in extended
17:41:14 <dpeg> I see, makes sense.
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17:41:51 <PleasingFungus> i'm not really sure how it'd be themed, since 'damnation' is awkward in some ways, but the idea of a hurled smite seems... off
17:42:25 <PleasingFungus> so i'm gonna let that one sit on my personal backburner and simmer for a while. just gonna think about and come back to it later.
17:42:32 <PleasingFungus> did you see the "make t silent" thread?
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17:42:42 <minmay> more than a hurled damnation?
17:43:02 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: yes, and if you hadn't replied on no-cost commands, I'd have. Thanks
17:43:03 <PleasingFungus> fr: minced damnation
17:43:18 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: my pleasure
17:43:18 <dpeg> !seen regret_index
17:43:19 <Sequell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen regret_index.
17:43:21 <dpeg> !seen regretindex
17:43:22 <Sequell> Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen regretindex.
17:43:22 <PleasingFungus> any thoughts on the rest of the thread?
17:43:24 <PleasingFungus> !seen regret-index
17:43:25 <Sequell> I last saw regret-index at Wed Jun 22 05:52:06 2016 UTC (2w 1d 15h 51m 18s ago) parting ##crawl-dev, saying 'chanpart'.
17:43:25 <dpeg> !seen regret-index
17:43:26 <Sequell> I last saw regret-index at Wed Jun 22 05:52:06 2016 UTC (2w 1d 15h 51m 19s ago) parting ##crawl-dev, saying 'chanpart'.
17:43:29 <PleasingFungus> huh
17:43:33 <PleasingFungus> right, they're on 'vacation'
17:43:35 <PleasingFungus> or they were
17:43:37 <dpeg> some numbers don't add up
17:43:44 <PleasingFungus> i can ask if you want, i have them on IM
17:43:48 <dpeg> no, don't worry
17:44:01 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: allies not opening doors is certainly good
17:44:29 <PleasingFungus> i honestly could've sworn we pushed that
17:44:32 <PleasingFungus> like a year ago
17:44:39 <dpeg> just close that door again!
17:44:40 <PleasingFungus> maybe we just talked about it
17:44:42 <PleasingFungus> haha
17:45:04 <dpeg> "Bogdan carefully peeks through the ajar door."
17:47:56 <PleasingFungus> :)
17:48:04 <PleasingFungus> good ol' Boggy Dan
17:48:23 <ProzacElf> minced damnation is delicious
17:48:50 <PleasingFungus> do we want permanent allies that are outside LOS to also be unable to open doors? on the one hand, silly if they get teleported into a room across the map and stuck there; on the other hand, not that silly, and it prevents stuff like them opening a door that you just closed behind yourself
17:48:57 <ProzacElf> it's like deviled eggs, but the ham has been damned
17:49:26 <ProzacElf> i suppose it would be incredibly complicated to only allow them to open doors that are out of LOS
17:49:56 <PleasingFungus> it wouldn't be complicated code-wise
17:50:06 <PleasingFungus> would it be desireable?
17:50:29 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: in all cases of permanent allies, there is now intralevel Recall?
17:50:37 <ProzacElf> maybe.  i can't think of very many situations where an ally opened a door was really a problem
17:50:46 <ProzacElf> but also, what dpeg said
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17:51:02 <ProzacElf> it may be better to just disallow door opening on their part
17:51:08 <PleasingFungus> certainly simpler
17:51:21 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: i think so
17:51:32 <ProzacElf> unless there is a case of a permanent ally that can't be recalled
17:51:43 <PleasingFungus> why would it matter if there was?
17:52:00 <PleasingFungus> are they really going to be able to wander over to you from across the level, even with door-opening abilities?
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17:52:11 <ProzacElf> probably not
17:52:28 <ProzacElf> mercenary card is the only thing i can think of and that's not even a thing anymore is it?
17:53:10 <gammafunk> they often did wander back after teleport (back when they could use doors), but there's no guarantee that they'll be able to
17:53:30 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: then it is better to never let them open doors.
17:53:59 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-939-g86877d0: Make ally commands silent (removeelyvilon) 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/86877d040c7b
17:54:05 <PleasingFungus> ProzacElf: yeah, gone except for any mercenaries that people have in imported saves
17:54:26 <ProzacElf> that seems like enough of a corner case as to not matter
17:54:40 <ProzacElf> also, i never once had a mercenary that didn't get itself killed soon after i got it
17:55:21 <PleasingFungus> haha
17:55:23 <ProzacElf> so i mainly just viewed it as a gold penalty card.  or some free xp
17:55:57 <ProzacElf> i take that back, i once had a merfolk impaler that did pretty well
17:56:12 <ProzacElf> so like, one out of 20 or so
17:56:38 <ontoclasm> so
17:57:01 <ontoclasm> how about making all permanent allies into pseudo-summons
17:57:13 <ontoclasm> as in, they disappear if they're out of your los for more than a few turns
17:57:18 <ontoclasm> and you just recall them back from nowhere
17:58:01 <ontoclasm> i can't think of a single case where having to shepherd them around levels are interesting
17:58:06 <ontoclasm> is*
17:58:20 <dpeg> ontoclasm: shafting (of the player)?
17:58:26 <gammafunk> ontoclasm: one big thing that permanent allies do now is fight out of los
17:58:41 <ontoclasm> dpeg: i guess maybe
17:58:53 <ontoclasm> gammafunk: is that a good thing though
17:59:18 <dpeg> ontoclasm: probably yes. With summons it's a bad idea, with permanent allies there's a cost.
17:59:33 <gammafunk> dpeg: what's the cost?
17:59:41 <dpeg> you can lose the ally
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18:00:07 <gammafunk> well that's not really the cost since they don't do anything different in-los versus out-of-los
18:00:32 <gammafunk> it's true that you're not there to manage them, but yeah I'm not sure it's super interesting. It would be a pretty big change though
18:00:57 <PleasingFungus> seems like weird added complexity
18:01:14 <PleasingFungus> when does 'shepherding allies around levels' cause actual problems?
18:01:22 <PleasingFungus> weird flame cloud vaults?
18:02:22 <PleasingFungus> !tv koboldina ds killer~~oklob
18:02:23 <Sequell> 1. koboldina, XL25 DsAs, T:90360 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
18:02:49 <ProzacElf> i mean, in that case you just tell them to wait
18:02:55 <ProzacElf> and then recall them in when you need them
18:03:03 <ProzacElf> after you get through the weird cloud vault
18:03:24 <PleasingFungus> oh god that tv
18:03:28 <ProzacElf> or you don't realize how to use the ally commands and get them all killed, in which case it doesnt matter anyway
18:03:35 <dpeg> ontoclasm: yes, in this light it can actually be annoying to you have your allies sent to you automatically
18:04:07 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: they get lost a lot
18:04:38 <PleasingFungus> it doesn't seem like it's any easier to have to recall them every time you want them to do anything than to recall them on the occasions they get lost
18:04:49 <PleasingFungus> (also tbh i don't remember my allies getting lost...)
18:05:37 <ProzacElf> honestly, other than hep, i just park my allies and recall them for tough fights
18:05:51 <ProzacElf> so i'm not that sure how they act in more 'normal' situations
18:05:52 <dpeg> ProzacElf: don't level them with Beogh??
18:06:05 <ProzacElf> well, it's been about 2 years since i did a beogh game
18:06:10 <ProzacElf> i guess i did bring them around with me
18:06:23 <ProzacElf> but even then, once i had a few warlords i told them to stay behind in most cases
18:06:41 <ProzacElf> and just let the new ones beogh gave me follow me around and live if they could
18:06:45 <ProzacElf> which was usually not
18:07:22 <ProzacElf> also, how does the leveling with beogh work?
18:07:36 <ProzacElf> it seems like shared xp to some degree
18:07:38 <dpeg> This is completely unrelated, but an idea I wanted to mention at least once: what do you think about making all staircases surrounded by floor (including passable stuff, such as staircases, fountains, altars etc.)?
18:08:01 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-940-g5efadfb: Ban friendly monsters from opening doors 10(50 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5efadfb8913d
18:08:22 <ProzacElf> dpeg: is your goal to make stairdancing less acceptable?
18:08:26 <ProzacElf> as a tactic
18:08:36 <dpeg> ProzacElf: yes
18:08:40 <dpeg> less cheesy
18:08:45 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-939-g86877d0 (34)
18:08:46 <elliptic> dpeg: wouldn't do much
18:08:53 <dpeg> elliptic: why?
18:09:07 <PleasingFungus> ProzacElf: iirc xp from kills is split between all allies in... los? maybe? it's been a while since i looked at the code
18:09:09 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19-a0-939-g86877d0 (34)
18:09:22 <ProzacElf> yeah, i'm inclined to agree with elliptic here.  the main advantage to doing that is fairly early when you need to pull bees up stairs
18:09:26 <ProzacElf> preferably to a hallway
18:09:29 <ProzacElf> or something like that
18:09:48 <dpeg> when I did stairdancing on V:$, I always picked the V:4 > with fewest space around it
18:10:16 <elliptic> because the usual use case for "stairdancing" is "wait on the stairs for one dangerous monster to become adjacent and pull it up with you"
18:10:43 <PleasingFungus> arguably it's more useful to choose one with more spaces, so you can finish pulling all the vault guards up before something really nasty wanders over
18:10:48 <elliptic> dpeg: sure, but V:$ stairdancing is a special case
18:11:00 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: you still pull up 8 guards at a time
18:11:05 <elliptic> they just aren't all adjacent to you
18:11:06 <PleasingFungus> ah, right!
18:11:08 <PleasingFungus> sorry
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18:11:39 <ProzacElf> also, a lot of the reasons for stairdancing are to deal with some moderately hard things while the guys who can smite or have other ranged abilities can't get at you
18:11:46 <dpeg> elliptic: would you agree it's a minor improvment nonetheless? (There are further ideas I have on top of that, but I hope this one works on its own.)
18:12:13 <elliptic> dpeg: I think "don't put V:4 >s next to walls" was a reasonable policy (though we were bad at enforcing it) but we shouldn't treat V:5 ambush as representative of the entire game in any way
18:12:30 <elliptic> dpeg: no
18:12:45 <elliptic> dpeg: it makes the dungeon less varied, which is bad
18:13:16 <ProzacElf> i also feel like it makes "random d:4 or d:5 bee swarm" an automatic game ender in a lot of cases
18:13:26 <ProzacElf> instead of something you can deal with
18:13:41 <ProzacElf> i mean, obviously that's resource dependent
18:13:42 <elliptic> I mean, early bees are already very dangerous and you aren't usually that close to stairs
18:13:43 <PleasingFungus> that sounds like a strong claim
18:13:51 <PleasingFungus> hm
18:13:52 <elliptic> I doubt this would have any significant effect on that
18:13:54 <PleasingFungus> @?melilai
18:13:54 <Gretell> unknown monster: "melilai"
18:13:56 <PleasingFungus> shit
18:14:01 <gammafunk> melia
18:14:02 <ProzacElf> yeah, you're probably right elliptic
18:14:04 <gammafunk> @??melia
18:14:04 <Gretell> unknown monster: "melia"
18:14:05 <|amethyst> @??mellisae
18:14:05 <Gretell> unknown monster: "mellisae"
18:14:06 <ProzacElf> meliae?
18:14:07 <gammafunk> fuck it
18:14:10 <PleasingFungus> @?meliai
18:14:10 <Gretell> meliai (03y) | Spd: 20 | HD: 7 | HP: 21-29 | AC/EV: 4/14 | Dam: 14, 1208(poison:14-28) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison, 08holy | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 300 | Sp: smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d3+3) [11!AM] | Sz: small | Int: human.
18:14:11 <|amethyst> @??melissae
18:14:11 <Gretell> unknown monster: "melissae"
18:14:11 <ProzacElf> @??meliae
18:14:11 <Gretell> unknown monster: "meliae"
18:14:16 <PleasingFungus> i looked it up
18:14:17 <|amethyst> oh
18:14:24 <|amethyst> @??laaaernear
18:14:24 <Gretell> unknown monster: "laaaernear"
18:14:25 <|amethyst> @??laaaernean
18:14:25 <Gretell> unknown monster: "laaaernean"
18:14:28 <PleasingFungus> fr: alias "melly"
18:14:35 <|amethyst> @??lernan
18:14:36 <Gretell> unknown monster: "lernan"
18:14:38 <PleasingFungus> anyway, good doors flag
18:14:46 <ProzacElf> heh
18:14:53 <dpeg> elliptic: I need to think more about this. But I want to do something against luring, and I'd be willing to sacrifice some dungeon variance for that.
18:15:00 <PleasingFungus> @??rat spells:major_healing
18:15:00 <Gretell> Invalid spell slot format: 'major healing' in 'major_healing'
18:15:01 <ProzacElf> is any other monster "items, doors, priest, evil, fly"?
18:15:04 <PleasingFungus> @??rat spells:major_healing.200.wizard
18:15:04 <Gretell> rat (07r) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 2-3 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 3 | spellcaster | XP: 1 | Sp: major healing (50-60) | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
18:15:21 <elliptic> dpeg: I think this change might even make me "stairdance" _more_
18:15:34 <dpeg> ProzacElf: would make a good question for Trivial Pursuit: Crawl Edition
18:15:42 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: i think haifisch had the right of it when she said that if you want to play a roguelike without luring, you should not be playing crawl.
18:15:46 <elliptic> dpeg: and I've already explained that I don't think it does much about "luring"
18:15:48 <|amethyst> ??gretell.rc
18:15:49 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled gretell.rc in my learndb.
18:15:58 <ProzacElf> you could probably sell literally a dozen copies of that game dpeg
18:15:59 <elliptic> because usually you are luring a single dangerous monster
18:16:08 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: perhaps I am too old for this, I really can't stand luring anymore.
18:16:38 <ProzacElf> i don't like luring, but that just gets reflected in my winrate
18:16:41 <elliptic> I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by luring
18:16:43 <PleasingFungus> it's pretty deeply baked into the game's makeup.
18:16:51 <gammafunk> I never lure, if I think I can't defeat the monster, I quit
18:16:53 <elliptic> if you just mean "run away from monsters sometimes" then yeah
18:17:00 <miek_> what are you even supposed to do if you can't lure
18:17:11 <miek_> isn't it the tactic of the game
18:17:13 <dpeg> elliptic: autoexplore because I see a monster, and I make sure to retreat with that monster in tow. Five thousand times.
18:17:18 <PleasingFungus> charge in to every fight!
18:17:29 <PleasingFungus> ??roleplaying[mikee
18:17:30 <Sequell> roleplaying[1/1]: <mikee_> an orc comes out of nowhere! i hate them because they burned my village down once <mikee_> i yell the name of trog and go into a berserk rage at the sight of the orc <mikee_> RARRGRAHA
18:17:35 <gammafunk> dpeg: most of this comes from the fact that crawl maps are bigs, you have many trivial fights
18:17:38 <gammafunk> *big
18:17:40 <elliptic> dpeg: well, I'm not sure what adding space around stairs has to do with that
18:17:49 <dpeg> elliptic: no, you couldn't.
18:17:49 <ProzacElf> PleasingFungus: i play the game that way a lot of the time =p
18:18:02 <ProzacElf> i mean, i pull dudes back into hallways and what not when possible
18:18:03 <PleasingFungus> Mikee Was right
18:18:04 <elliptic> dpeg: hm?
18:18:20 <PleasingFungus> *Right
18:18:20 <dpeg> elliptic: you don't know what else I have in mind, so you couldn't know it.
18:18:21 <ProzacElf> as i said, this is also reflected in my winrate
18:18:38 <dpeg> gammafunk: yes, large maps, and many monsters are the source of it, but I believe it doesn't have to end there.
18:18:53 <gammafunk> it ends in hellfire...
18:19:07 <ProzacElf> seems like this strategy needs to end with a lot of area control type abilities
18:19:16 <|amethyst> ProzacElf:  re your "any other monster" question, does it count if they have another flag in the middle?
18:19:17 <miek_> what did mikee say?
18:19:25 <miek_> oh.. the roleplaying
18:19:49 <ProzacElf> |amethyst: for my purposes yes, it counts.  for dpeg's trivial pursuit edition, possibly not
18:19:56 <|amethyst> @??meliai
18:19:57 <Gretell> meliai (03y) | Spd: 20 | HD: 7 | HP: 21-29 | AC/EV: 4/14 | Dam: 14, 1208(poison:14-28) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison, 08holy | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 300 | Sp: smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d3+3) [11!AM] | Sz: small | Int: human.
18:20:01 <|amethyst> @??profane servitor
18:20:01 <Gretell> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 128-177 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(140), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3902 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
18:20:09 <|amethyst> oh
18:20:12 <ProzacElf> heh
18:20:13 <|amethyst> they lost priest I guess
18:20:17 <ProzacElf> yeah, i don't see priest there anywhere
18:20:25 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 131-177 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(140), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3898 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.

18:20:25 <|amethyst> %0.17?profane servitor
18:20:29 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 132-171 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(140), 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3913 | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

18:20:29 <|amethyst> %0.16?profane servitor
18:20:32 <|amethyst> hm
18:20:35 <gammafunk> I have no faith that dpeg will release DCSS trivial pursuit when he never even released the DCSS YASD book!
18:20:42 <ProzacElf> THEY WERE NEVER PRIESTS YOU CHARLATAN
18:20:44 <ProzacElf> =p
18:20:51 <PleasingFungus> 0.16 isn't very far back
18:20:54 <PleasingFungus> ;)
18:20:58 <PleasingFungus> need to check crawl-ancient to be sure
18:21:07 <|amethyst> ah, here we go
18:21:11 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 133-173 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3906 | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

18:21:11 <|amethyst> %0.15?profane servitor
18:21:11 <PleasingFungus> i wonder what % of current monsters existed in crawl-ancient
18:21:12 <ProzacElf> yeah, but i get to call |amethyst a charlatan
18:21:16 <ProzacElf> there we go
18:21:25 <PleasingFungus> does this mean that you're the charlatan, now? or heretic, perhaps
18:21:36 <ProzacElf> SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!
18:21:47 <gammafunk> he's just a drunk elf in the peanut gallery
18:21:48 <PleasingFungus> bonus q: what % of monsters have unchanged stats from crawl-ancient? I guess none, since i rewrote hp
18:21:53 <ProzacElf> pfff
18:22:18 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  MR would also be a pretty big difference
18:22:25 <|amethyst> at least for most monsters
18:22:54 <ProzacElf> yeah, especially all the things that are now only functionally MR-immune instead of actually immune
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18:23:34 <PleasingFungus> ah, true
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18:23:43 <PleasingFungus> but what *else* did the romans change for us?
18:23:50 <ProzacElf> haha
18:24:01 <ProzacElf> i guess i never noticed that servitors had a vamp attack
18:25:19 <elliptic> vamp is their main distinguishing feature IMO
18:26:06 <ProzacElf> i always felt their speed was notable
18:26:08 <|amethyst> not the most distinctive though
18:26:30 <ProzacElf> and frankly they rarely show up outside of the orbrun, even in pan
18:26:34 <|amethyst> most distinctive is that they're surrounded by purple all the time
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18:26:38 <elliptic> |amethyst: yeah
18:26:38 <ProzacElf> haha
18:26:51 <ProzacElf> yeah, actually the umbra is the most noticeable feature
18:27:41 <ProzacElf> that's a ton of EV too
18:28:25 <elliptic> ProzacElf: their speed is important of course, but I was mainly comparing against angels or against other top-end yred allies
18:28:38 <|amethyst> re luring, retreating, or not charging into battle, I feel that something along that spectrum is a major factor that makes good players better than me
18:29:02 <|amethyst> my worry is that seriously reducing the effectiveness would make skill less of a factor in the game
18:29:13 <PleasingFungus> that's a hell of a way to phrase it
18:29:28 <PleasingFungus> 'we need luring to exist so that i'm still bad at the game'
18:29:42 <elliptic> I'm not really sure how to reduce its effectiveness other than replacing every monster with a centaur
18:29:52 <dpeg__> elliptic: there are many things that can be done
18:29:53 <ProzacElf> hahaha
18:29:58 <PleasingFungus> replace every monster with two centaurs
18:29:58 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  it worked for Twisted Res, Ely, and meleebug :)
18:30:02 <dpeg__> some time I will write up some ideas
18:30:10 <ProzacElf> PleasingFungus: oddly enough, it makes sense though
18:30:11 <PleasingFungus> we should bring back meleebug once a year
18:30:14 <PleasingFungus> christmastime gift
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18:30:41 <elliptic> I guess better monster AI is the other thing I can think of that might help
18:30:46 <PleasingFungus> 4.1!
18:30:48 <ProzacElf> but yeah, if you take away luring and don't replace it with anything, it seems like it takes a lot of skill away
18:30:55 <|amethyst> better AI doesn't have to be 4.
18:30:56 <|amethyst> 1
18:30:59 <dpeg__> elliptic: yes, and I think subtle changes would already help a bit
18:31:08 <dpeg__> but I need to go back into this crazy vault
18:31:10 <|amethyst> I really like Sil's orc AI
18:31:11 <ProzacElf> elliptic: make the monsters more efficiently stupid?
18:31:12 <miek_> I don't even understand what the game would really be without retreating with monsters
18:31:14 <PleasingFungus> ProzacElf: yeah i'm not disagreeing even
18:31:25 <ProzacElf> sil has great AI, but crawl would be a nightmare with it
18:31:26 <|amethyst> (or Brogue's orc AI, which is similar in some ways)
18:31:27 <gammafunk> the more complicated monster AI/tactics are, the fewer fights you need to have imo
18:31:38 <gammafunk> crawl has kind of a lot of fights to have to deal with complicated AI
18:31:39 <PleasingFungus> dpeg__: r-i just woke up and started looking at the vault
18:31:40 <elliptic> dpeg__: I'm all in favor of trying out AI changes
18:31:48 <|amethyst> the problem with AI changes
18:31:49 <dpeg__> PleasingFungus: no no, I am changing it
18:31:51 <dpeg__> please don't
18:31:52 <PleasingFungus> hm
18:32:06 <elliptic> |amethyst: sil has good AI for some things but sil's ranged AI is pretty bad
18:32:08 <dpeg__> PleasingFungus: it has another bug (the 10 altars case produces 12)
18:32:11 <|amethyst> is that it requires touching AI code
18:32:11 <ProzacElf> gammafunk: fair point, but i think a lot of people like crawl in part because you can feel cool blowing through a bunch of idiot fights
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18:32:15 <PleasingFungus> yeah, r-i remarked on that
18:32:17 <ProzacElf> and then run into a few tough ones
18:32:26 <|amethyst> elliptic:  yeah, orc archers are extremely annoying
18:32:31 <miek_> I was playing ADOM recently and it was remarkable how few fights there were compared to dcss
18:32:38 <|amethyst> elliptic:  not hard, just annoying
18:32:39 <dpeg__> miek_: nobody wants to remove retreating
18:32:47 <elliptic> specifically the way it reduces to "learn a few geometric configurations that trivialize archers in most situations"
18:32:59 <dpeg__> PleasingFungus: oh, regret-index you mean
18:33:00 <ProzacElf> i may be in a minoritiy here, but i think one of the distinguishing features of dcss is the amount of combat there is
18:33:03 <PleasingFungus> yes, sorry
18:33:11 <PleasingFungus> too long to type out without tab-complete!
18:33:11 <elliptic> part of that is that sil dungeon layout is very regular I guess
18:33:27 <PleasingFungus> classic angband layout
18:33:47 <elliptic> so you get the same situation (line of archers approaching the entrance to a room) a lot of the time
18:34:02 <miek_> what's the difference between luring and retreating though?
18:34:17 <|amethyst> miek_:  luring you do with the intention of fighting the monster somewhere else
18:34:28 <miek_> its retreating from the situation
18:34:31 <miek_> *shrugs*
18:34:34 <|amethyst> miek_:  if you're retreating and the monster loses track of you, you're happy, not annoyed :)
18:34:47 <ProzacElf> maybe if you just throw a stone at a monster, it might be smart enough to ignore you if you run away immediately
18:34:48 <ProzacElf> for example
18:34:58 <PleasingFungus> throw, retreat, throw, retreat
18:35:00 <PleasingFungus> sounds fun
18:35:17 <gammafunk> I like pretending I'm a dog, it's fun to me dude
18:35:38 <ProzacElf> i didn't say it sounded awesome, i was just pointing out a possible difference between retreating and luring
18:35:41 <|amethyst> solution: Inverse Force Lance
18:36:05 <ProzacElf> the farther away you are the more it pulls you in?
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18:37:12 <|amethyst> okay, maybe not quite *that* inverse
18:37:35 <dpeg__> miek_: attacking in Crawl means retreating, that is why you cannot make that distinction
18:37:59 <dpeg__> PleasingFungus: if r-i has a more elegant solution, he'll just fix my stuff, right
18:38:23 <elliptic> IMO attacking in crawl doesn't mean retreating
18:38:27 <ProzacElf> |amethyst: pff, inverse law of squares or gtfo
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18:39:24 <PleasingFungus> dpeg__: yeah, that's what i'd expect
18:39:25 <|amethyst> Crawl doesn't have a third dimension so should clearly use a straight reciprocal relationship between distance and force
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18:39:36 <dpeg__> |amethyst: solid reasoning
18:39:40 <ProzacElf> haha
18:39:48 <gammafunk> if you attack something with distortion and it teleports then you *kind of* retreated (no you didn't)
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18:40:00 <PleasingFungus> sort of!
18:40:08 <PleasingFungus> what if you cast teleport other
18:40:12 <PleasingFungus> does that spell still exist
18:40:17 <ProzacElf> there is clearly a third dimension, it is just only represented by traveling between functionally separated two-dimensional planes
18:40:29 <gammafunk> yes it does!
18:40:31 <ProzacElf> it did the last time i played a warper
18:40:33 <gammafunk> ??spatial_translocations
18:40:33 <Sequell> book of spatial translocations[1/1]: Apportation, Portal Projectile, Blink, Shroud of Golubria, Teleport Other, Passage of Golubria
18:40:34 <PleasingFungus> crazy
18:40:36 <PleasingFungus> the 'pudge' archetype of 'enemy with a grappling hook' is very popular these days.
18:40:46 <gammafunk> Every Wr gets to use it
18:40:49 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: that dimension very badly captures properties you'd usually attribute to dimensions!
18:41:05 <PleasingFungus> tangential: i went through and updated spells_by_school the other day, but not spells_by_level
18:41:08 <PleasingFungus> so they're out of sync
18:41:44 <|amethyst> yeah, I think it's more a bunch of 2d sheets glued together at specific points
18:41:45 <ProzacElf> dpeg_: i'd love for someone better at math than i am to tell me if that could actually model a 3 dimensional space or not
18:42:10 <ProzacElf> but i never did anything with topology
18:42:35 <ProzacElf> so i don't know if 2d sheets attached with access points can make a 3d shape
18:42:51 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: let me tell you that Crawl's dungeon system is a lousy substitute for 3d. If you take Hausdorff dimensions, you maybe get 2.1 :)
18:43:15 <ProzacElf> haha
18:43:16 <|amethyst> I was thinking Lebesgue but yeah
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18:43:19 <|amethyst> also
18:43:29 <|amethyst> "balls" don't cross levels anyway
18:43:45 <|amethyst> not even across stairs
18:43:59 <dpeg__> |amethyst: "Lebesgue dimension"? I have a hunch that the French take ideas by anyone, and slap "Lebesgue" in front of it.
18:43:59 <|amethyst> e.g. fireball
18:44:06 <ProzacElf> all of my most advanced math involved statistics, which means i rarely had to understand anything beyond the concept of 7-dimensional space or whatever
18:44:15 <dpeg__> orbs of destruction should totally use stairs
18:44:35 <|amethyst> dpeg__:  "topological dimension" is how I usually hear it
18:44:35 <ProzacElf> |amethyst: well, clearly a 'ball' is just the local terminology for 'circle'
18:44:42 * dpeg__ hands ProzacElf a Poisson distribution.
18:44:45 <|amethyst> ProzacElf:  square here
18:46:12 <ProzacElf> dpeg_: comically, there are about 3 commonly used ways to do a logistic regression and about 5 for a survival analysis, which all depend upon assumptions you're making about your distribution
18:46:52 <Cheibriados> 03dpeg02 07* 0.19-a0-941-g9fb69ba: Two fixes to compressed_dpeg_circular 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9fb69baf37b3
18:46:56 <ProzacElf> but, from what i learned (which may be wrong), you should basically just assume a normal distribution without a specific reason not to
18:47:01 <ProzacElf> which seems a little messed up to me
18:47:51 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: nah, it's called "normal distribution" for a reason
18:49:02 <ProzacElf> well, i learned these stats in service of neuroscience and sociology.......and my argument against taking the normal distribution for granted is that your sample is almost never going to be normal
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18:49:21 <ProzacElf> so i guess it is a good assumption to make if you think your sample is actually representative
18:49:51 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: if you make N large enough (and you're measuring something like age, or size), it'll be fine?
18:49:59 <|amethyst> "the study of normal distributions and things that, eh, let's just assume are normally distributed"
18:50:12 <dpeg__> Bad: life expectancy of Crawl developers. Good: life expectancy of Crawl players.
18:50:32 <ProzacElf> huge N helps, but let's face it, we're measuring some messed up stuff in sociology
18:50:55 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: sure, you should really think if what you're measuring is supposedly normal.
18:51:10 <ProzacElf> using those techniques in neuroscience makes more sense, although i'm far enough removed from my neuro work that i'm not sure what the up to date techniques are there
18:51:44 <ProzacElf> dpeg_: in particular measuring factors that lead to criminal behavior, which is by definition abnormal
18:52:15 <dpeg__> yes, I agree, shouldn't make blanko (sp?) assumptions there
18:53:27 <ProzacElf> i'm not familiar with the term, but i'm guessing it just means 'assuming things are based on the normal distribution'
18:53:38 <ProzacElf> anyway, this has turned a little abstract
18:53:56 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: I gave a concrete example!
18:54:05 <ProzacElf> lol
18:54:14 <ProzacElf> sorry, poor use of the term 'abstract'
18:54:25 <ProzacElf> i mean it has gotten well away from the discussion of crawl
18:55:01 <ProzacElf> i just got a little miffed at my professors when they couldn't necessarily give me a good answer on why we shouldn't be using other methods
18:55:30 <ProzacElf> other than "they're harder, and we can't be sure what our distribution actually is, so we assume it's normal unless we know otherwise"
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18:56:31 <ProzacElf> especially since we frankly have to use some pretty small N for a lot of stuff
18:56:53 <dpeg__> ProzacElf: I've seen biology students to chi square tests on N=2, I hope the police does better =)
18:56:59 <PleasingFungus> lmao
18:57:12 <ProzacElf> hahaha
18:57:41 <ProzacElf> i was doing work on people who had been exonerated of their crimes, and my national database was about 2100
18:57:53 <ProzacElf> not all of which could be used in everything i did
18:58:58 <ProzacElf> i guess theoretically that is a plenty big N
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18:59:44 <ProzacElf> but the argument with that in particular is that people who got exonerated is ignoring everyone who was innocent of the crime they got convicted for but it wasn't proven
18:59:54 <ProzacElf> which is obviously more of a philosophical problem
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19:00:16 <ProzacElf> in terms of 'how can you measure the unmeasurable'?
19:00:28 <dpeg__> this is like not-dying in Crawl even though they should've, right
19:00:43 <ProzacElf> hahaha, yes
19:00:54 <dpeg__> IRL, this is unavoidable: you never know the real amout of rapes, for example (in German we call this "dark number")
19:01:08 <ProzacElf> we actually call it the same
19:01:15 <ProzacElf> i mean, not limited to rapes
19:01:23 <ProzacElf> but all unreported crimes
19:01:51 <dpeg__> yes, sure
19:02:19 <PleasingFungus> like dark matter, but depressing
19:02:24 <ProzacElf> indeed
19:02:36 <ProzacElf> although are you sure that dark matter doesn't *cause* depression?  =D
19:03:42 <Shard1697> ps: thanks devs for their patience with my "never used git before" situation
19:03:44 <ProzacElf> "ah, you must be depressed because of this accumulation of dark matter in your frontal lobe!"
19:05:26 <PleasingFungus> Shard1697: np, it was a finely formatted patch
19:05:33 <PleasingFungus> like, in terms of the git side of things
19:05:45 <PleasingFungus> much better than most of our first submissions
19:05:57 <ProzacElf> dpeg_: honestly, it just feels like so much of the stats feels like hand-waving, and especially when it gets so mis-used and misreported in the media.  very few of the instances of seen from scientific papers or my collaborators have deliberate mis-uses
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19:08:43 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-941-g9fb69ba (34)
19:13:00 <ProzacElf> brb
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19:41:32 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: surely you should be able to issue ally commands while silenced now?
19:41:46 <PleasingFungus> hrm
19:41:47 <PleasingFungus> oversight
19:42:02 <PleasingFungus> would be simpler if t-t was a separate command
19:42:24 <dpeg__> do people still use T?
19:42:31 <dpeg__> else we could repurpose t-t --> T
19:42:35 <dpeg__> erm, sorry, a braino
19:43:23 <MarvinPA> whenever i've suggested making equip_unequip default there's been a bunch of opposition so i'd be very surprised if removing T entirely would be doable
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19:43:33 <dpeg__> MarvinPA: yes yes
19:43:56 <MarvinPA> sadly merging inventory commands is hard :(
19:44:15 <dpeg__> MarvinPA: oh, very much so. We had a time when we did a bit of that, and it was painful
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19:49:54 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: fyi, i'm rewriting the yell stuff now
19:50:06 <PleasingFungus> just in case we were duplicating efforts
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19:51:32 <MarvinPA> aha cool, i wasn't doing anything so thanks :P
19:52:20 <MarvinPA> very weird how shoutitis is in there, i guess that's due to it just being a regular shout in the past i guess
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19:56:27 <PleasingFungus> i think it is, with all due respect, gruntcode.
19:56:43 <MarvinPA> heh, i just looked it up a second ago and you are correct
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20:03:45 <PleasingFungus> he was the genius behind New Shoutitis
20:04:03 <PleasingFungus> wow that sounds sort of sarcastic. hrm. not intended.
20:04:13 <PleasingFungus> anyway, i sort of assumed it was his code.
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20:07:40 <PleasingFungus> oh, neat, found an existing bug
20:08:59 <PleasingFungus> how do i get crawl to flush the message buffer? is there a nicer way than printing a newline?
20:09:10 <ProzacElf> equip_unequip isn't default?
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20:10:03 <ProzacElf> i've got so much legacy junk in my rcfile that i'm sometimes surprised to find something isn't just a default anymore
20:10:34 <ProzacElf> but if item weights ever come back, i'll be ready =p
20:10:42 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: flush_prev_message() I think, but that doesn't include the redraw_screen
20:10:49 <PleasingFungus> i don't want to redraw the screen
20:10:52 <PleasingFungus> i think?
20:11:35 <PleasingFungus> we'll find out together
20:12:33 <PleasingFungus> yep, that did it! thanks |amethyst  :)
20:12:45 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-942-gea7895c: Let players give orders while silenced (MarvinPA) 10(5 minutes ago, 3 files, 176+ 138-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea7895c3598e
20:12:45 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-943-gc6a9344: Fix using 't' while berserked 10(45 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c6a934433d52
20:12:52 <PleasingFungus> to see the bug, try berserking and then hitting 't'
20:13:00 <PleasingFungus> without recompiling first, ofc
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20:16:06 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  aww, I was hoping it would actually let me type "RIP HUGE GUTS" at that prompt
20:16:21 <PleasingFungus> it should!
20:16:32 <PleasingFungus> clearly
20:16:46 <PleasingFungus> YOU HAVE HUGE GUTS - my doctor, probably
20:18:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: btw, a suggestion that will let you increase your millimarvins, but probably make you cry
20:18:10 <PleasingFungus> aiii
20:18:14 <PleasingFungus> ok sock it to me.
20:18:15 <|amethyst> instead of
20:18:17 <|amethyst> +            if (targ.isCancel)
20:18:17 <|amethyst> +            {
20:18:17 <|amethyst> +                canned_msg(MSG_OK);
20:18:17 <|amethyst> +                return;
20:18:20 <|amethyst> +            }
20:18:35 <|amethyst> do
20:18:36 <|amethyst> +            if (targ.isCancel)
20:18:36 <|amethyst> +                return canned_msg(MSG_OK);
20:18:44 <PleasingFungus> haha
20:19:03 <PleasingFungus> i want to rip out that entire switch/case anyway, is the thing
20:19:18 <PleasingFungus> pull it into its own function that returns, uh
20:19:27 <PleasingFungus> mons_targd
20:20:03 <PleasingFungus> i guess maybe it could return a bool and set mons_targd by reference?
20:20:10 <PleasingFungus> (bool = "actually issue a command")
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20:21:39 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  what about the _set_friendly_foes thing?
20:22:01 <PleasingFungus> ?
20:22:31 <|amethyst> _set_friendly_foes(keyn == 's' || keyn == 'w');   at the bottom of that function, after the switch
20:23:12 <|amethyst> I guess it could move inside, but it would have to be rewritten to take the target as a parameter
20:23:40 <|amethyst> (currently it uses you.pet_target so has to wait until after that's set)
20:24:58 <PleasingFungus> simpler to just do this
20:25:01 <PleasingFungus> you'll see
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20:28:12 <PleasingFungus> i'm getting so many millimarvins with this, you have no idea.
20:29:24 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-944-gb338e1e: More orders/shouting refactoring 10(13 seconds ago, 1 file, 46+ 54-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b338e1ef5be1
20:29:29 <PleasingFungus> WITH comments!
20:29:43 <PleasingFungus> git got very confused by this commit
20:30:31 <PleasingFungus> i appreciate its careful effort to keep certain things. the "the" in the first line of the block comment
20:30:43 <PleasingFungus> the ')' at the end of the function declaration...
20:30:50 <gammafunk> I would not even stop walking to pick up a mere net 8- lying on the street...
20:30:58 <PleasingFungus> i guess that's github, really
20:31:04 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: WITH comments!
20:31:22 <PleasingFungus> ??millimarvin
20:31:22 <Sequell> millimarvin[1/1]: 16.598 net lines of code removed (as of 2016-06-26)
20:31:35 <PleasingFungus> those half-millimarvins add up, jerry!
20:35:25 <ProzacElf> fr: custom shouting
20:35:37 <PleasingFungus> rcfile options
20:36:26 <ProzacElf> well, i can also just :
20:36:40 <ProzacElf> and then it even shows up in my morgue
20:37:21 <ProzacElf> but if i shout at a giant orange brain to kiss my giant orange ass, then maybe it'll get extra mad at me =p
20:37:22 <PleasingFungus> but then how will the monsters know?
20:37:24 <PleasingFungus> :)
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20:38:32 <ProzacElf> alas, giant orange brains may not understand english anyway
20:38:48 <ProzacElf> but it would combine my desire to attract attention to my position and my desire to insult a monster =D
20:54:28 <minmay> they're giant
20:54:33 <minmay> they probably know like 50000 languages
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21:08:40 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-944-gb338e1e (34)
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21:13:55 <ProzacElf> well, yeah, but so much of their brainpower is devoted to telekinetic flying and summoning dudes
21:14:06 <ProzacElf> and they seem fairly antisocial as well
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21:58:32 <minmay> ProzacElf, if we're going to get rational about it, brain size doesn't actually correspond to intelligence
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22:00:15 <PleasingFungus> then explain the size of THIS noggin
22:00:17 <PleasingFungus> <-
22:01:30 <minmay> a cow brain is bigger than a crow brain but the cow is arguably far less intelligent
22:01:49 <PleasingFungus> i feel like it'd be hard to argue otherwise
22:02:05 <PleasingFungus> isn't it something closer to brain size : body mass that's a good approximation?
22:02:39 <ProzacElf> that's a better approximation but it still isn't entirely accurate
22:02:51 <ProzacElf> at least for how we choose to define intelligence
22:03:16 <PleasingFungus> bring back 'better than human' intelligence and give it exclusively to giant orange brains
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22:04:27 <ProzacElf> heh
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22:08:30 <PleasingFungus> I_HIGH_ALL_THE_TIME
22:12:06 <nikheizen> I was wondering, what is the purpose of the item generation code which creates unusable/nigh unusable items very out of depth in the early game?
22:13:05 <PleasingFungus> lol
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22:28:49 <PleasingFungus> @??brimstone fiend
22:28:50 <Gretell> Brimstone Fiend (041) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 82-117 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Dam: 25, 15, 15 | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 05damnation, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 12drown, 08holy++ | XP: 3314 | Sp: hurl damnation (3d20) [06!sil], s.torment [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
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23:03:09 <Yermak> I like chalky looking walls in 0.15 Vaults more than current ones.
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23:36:21 <minmay> <nikheizen> I was wondering, what is the purpose of the item generation code which creates unusable/nigh unusable items very out of depth in the early game?
23:36:24 <minmay> what does this mean?
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23:58:41 <chequers> fda on d:1 i guess
23:59:27 <gammafunk> he's probably confused about the idea of there being item gen code with a specific purpose of "creating unusable/nigh unusable items.." etc
23:59:40 <gammafunk> which there isn't really