00:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:15 with just 12 trials at 50%, you get a zero 0.02% of the time 00:00:33 believe me I'm aware of the distribution of the binomial 00:00:43 zxc would like a word with you, if you are going to say 0.02% is acceptable 00:01:02 the isn't isn't "these extremes are common" it's more that "these extremes will exist and players will seem them, given how much crawl is played" 00:01:24 *this isn't 00:01:47 yes, and I always choose the n and p values such that the extremes with a non-vanishingly-small chance would be, to me, acceptable in crawl in practice 00:02:45 yeah, you can ask, "is it ok for 0.02% of encounters with this vault to be weird in exchange for making the remainder better?" 00:03:18 it's just a different philosophy, do you control the extremes and introduce some spoilery behavior that vanishingly few players will take advantage of? 00:03:37 especially given there are still spoilers remaining if you don't control the extremes? 00:03:47 if it's as high as 0.02% then it means I didn't consider it weird 00:03:49 like, "oh this runed vault has mace of brilliance, that's good to know, glad I read that des" 00:04:08 i wouldn't worry about people taking advantage of it so much as just having a reduced variety experience 00:04:19 ??drke[png 00:04:19 tiers[1/1]: Races: http://i.imgur.com/NMsN77b.png Gods: http://i.imgur.com/QuSrpL6.png (tiles) / http://pastebin.com/UWHjNUNC (text) 00:04:21 gammafunk: I don't mind a nonzero minimum, it's low maxima that bother me for spoilers 00:04:34 right the distribution I'm using in no way gives a reduced variety experience 00:04:50 PF seems to be implying that I'm failing to use randomization, which isn't the case, there's still very appreciable variance here 00:05:17 fairly certain i wasn't implying that 00:05:33 IMO almost all of these vaults work fine with the maximum monsters/items anyway 00:06:02 main exceptions being prune, variability, cocktagon 00:06:15 yeah I'm just responding to your comment about "making the remainder better"; I don't think those vaults with the extremes modifies will constitute a bad or not random enough experience at all 00:06:24 but those maxima literally will not matter 00:06:33 removing randomness would be bad, but we're not doing that 00:06:56 *removing all randomness 00:07:18 !tell dpeg this makes little sense with Gozag: 00:07:18 _Prince Ribbit returns to his original shape as he dies. 00:07:18 _You now have 698 gold pieces (gained 8). 00:07:19 Rast: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 00:07:33 !tell dpeg Prince Ribbit returns to his original shape as he dies. 00:07:34 You now have 698 gold pieces (gained 8). 00:07:34 Rast: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 00:07:37 also, I complimented your waifu in the middle of the vault submission, i hope you appreciate that 00:08:56 Rast: want to try again? 00:08:58 I probably missed it if it's not in the unrand one 00:09:08 third try's the charm...? 00:09:13 it's at the top of the unrand one 00:09:17 PleasingFungus, I decided the first two lines are what mattered 00:09:25 mm 00:10:04 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:07 also, I posit that guarded_unrand_variability possibly generating 79 chaos spawns is completely appropriate for the theme 00:11:13 again, though, binomial distributions are the default in existing vaults that randomize monsters/items at all, so you might be in for a lot of work! 00:11:36 it's not too much work 00:11:46 and you can post some rant on CYC about binomial distributions and spoilers 00:11:54 existing vaults as in, vaults that are already in the game 00:12:06 -!- Stormblessed has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:12:27 not just mine 00:12:51 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:13:11 Just think of "vault editors" as really shifty bureaucrats who have to justify their jobs by inventing work for themselves 00:15:16 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:26 @??flying skull 00:15:26 flying skull (00z) | Spd: 15 | HD: 7 | HP: 17-24 | AC/EV: 10/17 | Dam: 14 | 07undead, evil, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(20), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 228 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 00:15:34 oh, I kind of already assumed your regular job was like that 00:16:07 that describes like, half of all jobs in "first-world" countries 00:16:33 except it's someone else inventing the work 00:16:50 vote bernie 2016 00:17:03 No, tutoring my students like amalloy to pass the driver's test is by no means unrewarding or simply bureaucratic 00:17:24 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17:25 That fact that he's a special case that's had to take the test 5 times so far just makes my work all the more important 00:17:34 -!- Demise_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:00 -!- wheals_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:20:40 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:20 -!- Amphouse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:25:50 -!- miek_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:25:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:27 honestly i'm failing on purpose to spend more time with gammafunk 00:26:40 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:52 my mom doesn't understand how important my Twitch friends are to me 00:27:58 -!- miek_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:35 nor does she understand that Touhou is absolutely a valid music genre 00:28:47 extreme behavior is still revoltingly common 00:28:58 both w/r/t vaults and things like touhou 00:29:12 fr: touhou depths encompass vault 00:29:47 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 00:29:50 don't we already have enough anime girls in this game? 00:29:54 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-734-ge18daf0 (34) 00:30:20 which unique is the most anime 00:30:42 well, i would have said duvessa or natasha 00:30:49 which unique is the most kawaii 00:30:53 but now we have bai whatever 00:31:02 kawaii? obv blork 00:31:02 @??death knight 00:31:03 death knight (03p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 65-90 | AC/EV: 10/9 | Dam: 28 | natural, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 908 | Sp: agony [11!AM], injury mirror [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 00:31:07 which unique is the most rawr xD <333;; http://67.media.tumblr.com/327c9ec61c91f78ce809dd966eaaf344/tumblr_o0jy0jUwDS1tcuorwo1_1280.jpg 00:32:13 was that you getting ready to go to coachella in 10th grade? 00:32:22 (note: don't ask me any questions about this picture, especially not the egg, because I guarantee you that I do not have the answers to them) 00:33:39 no, all i did in 10th grade was make explosions and cry myself to sleep 00:34:43 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:50 minmay: xtahua? 00:37:05 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:38:22 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:40:38 lol 00:42:42 -!- andre_1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:45:08 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:48:30 ProzacElf, i think like half the stories on my blog are from 10th grade or very close to it 00:50:34 you've a blog? 00:52:53 someone else is doing a zig farmer, as pakellas https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/Cuckatoo/Cuckatoo.txt 00:53:02 https://crawl.project357.org/watch/Cuckatoo trying to collect every unrand, I think 00:53:08 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:51 ?/simple 00:53:52 Matching terms (1): simple_implementables; entries (11): beem[2] | fighter_reasons[1] | flayed_ghost[2] | fov[1] | GodRobin[1] | guide_guide[1] | incursion[3] | nicolae[1] | shout[1] | spell_power[2] | tggw[1] 00:53:57 ??simple implementables 00:53:57 simple implementables[1/1]: http://tinyurl.com/zaskueb 00:55:17 simplentables 00:56:57 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:57:20 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest97425 00:59:47 what makes those 'simple' 01:00:00 -!- deltaromeo has quit [Quit: deltaromeo] 01:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:03 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:29 they don't involve i? 01:00:57 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:34 ontoclasm: they seem like they should be. 01:01:38 probably. 01:02:28 so they were like 01:02:32 tagged as such by somebody 01:02:53 me 01:03:23 chequers ordered us to make a list of simple low-priority bugs to leave around for new devs. 01:04:12 it's the Iron Open-Source Law, he claimed. 01:04:51 -!- Guest97425 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:06:04 03regret-index02 07* 0.19-a0-735-g703e437: A flood of minmay vaults (#10368, #10423) 10(5 minutes ago, 7 files, 3363+ 201-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/703e437895fd 01:06:34 mm 01:06:57 the minmay has been unleashed. can he ever be contained again? 01:07:31 wait, so "cocktagon" was over the line, but "coctagon" was fine? 01:07:37 crawl is a funny business... 01:08:06 schlocktagon 01:08:10 I guess I should have expected you to do the one single thing I specifically asked you not to do 01:08:17 there are a LOT of agons in there 01:08:19 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:19 minmay: ? 01:08:28 allow coctagon to generate in coc 01:08:41 lol 01:09:09 it's a 'variant', apparently 01:09:11 the strategically removed comment: # don't actually make a coc verison of this please, hells:1-6 aren't supposed to have items 01:09:35 e.nsubst('d = 1:4 / 1:} / *:3') 01:09:44 this looks like it might do something with items, maybe 01:10:01 -!- debo__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:04 it doesn't 01:10:09 rip 01:10:25 and "aren't supposed to have items" is an addendum, not an invitation to make a version with no items and put it in coc 01:10:45 but w/e like I said I should have expected it 01:11:02 no one expects the regret-index inquisition 01:11:37 minmay: by the way, what makes you have float for some of these and just have the others be minivaults? 01:11:48 well, hey, we also have the buddhist draconian water dragon now 01:12:17 in case someone was still under the impression that tibet was not better off under communist chinese rule 01:12:44 boris talks about how crimea has always been part of russia 01:13:11 does he? he should 01:13:17 lol 01:14:02 gammafunk: float for enclosed vaults, minivault for ones that are surrounded by floor. just an attempt to minimize the number of vetoes 01:14:02 need a unique who talks about Glorious Srbja 01:14:12 gotcha 01:14:31 seventh rome 01:14:44 -!- debo__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:16:09 jory is clearly a proponent of new zero kanada 01:17:44 need to add these to the game. https://goo.gl/images/vNv4KP they fly and turn little girls into stone and/or ice and score my daughter so much she won't go to sleep 01:18:29 well, we've got basilisks 01:18:34 which are like 01:18:39 discount cockatrices 01:19:01 hm, that's not rot13 01:19:18 iyztezsk yt ozdyi tfi ifvyzt hy gytfezz. 01:19:56 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-735-g703e437 (34) 01:20:01 not al bhed, either 01:21:00 -!- Mekire has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:21:35 -!- FireSight has quit [] 01:21:48 ontoclasm: minmay_basiliskgon 01:22:11 i know r-i used a similar cypher before, but i don't recall what it was 01:22:13 ah well 01:22:52 octatrice 01:24:44 chequers: 0.02% chance for what? 01:25:50 0.02% for chequers to win a game of crawl 01:26:20 that must be with a minotaur, then? 01:26:37 dang 01:27:16 PleasingFungus: the law 01:27:41 my winrate is going up folks 01:27:45 !won . month 01:27:46 chequers (month) has won twice in 69 games (2.90%): 1xDsBe 1xOgMo 01:28:21 !won . week 01:28:23 minmay (week) has won once in 1 games (100.00%): 1xDgWn 01:28:51 problem with this keyword is now you can't add a combo that abbreviates to WeEK 01:29:21 Werewolk Electric Knight 01:29:32 just had an idea for a tome patch, brb... 01:29:37 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:29:55 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 01:29:56 DgWn is cheating anyhow 01:30:12 I've been thinking on how to implement wielding/wearing items from the floor 01:30:43 one thing i don't really understand is the difference between mitm index, inv index and inv slot 01:30:52 i know slot is a letter corresponding to an index 01:31:05 err item.link for inv stuff 01:31:20 minmay: is the tag in minmay_guarded_unrand_guard_vaults supposed to be vaults_hard vaults_orient_n 01:31:42 er, just the vaults_orient_n is the change I'm talking about 01:33:40 also the problem goes back to the menus being dorked up 01:34:09 it's almost as if the menu system needs to be re-written before another major change in item usage code gets done 01:34:47 problem is, people want menu rewrite to be better menus in all - not just a simplification of the code 01:35:45 my creative genius takes a vacation when it comes to designing visual things 01:36:15 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36:58 Naruni: mitm is the entire level's array of items, for items on the ground and for items carried by monsters, for one 01:37:08 the player inventory is not stored in this array 01:37:30 gammafunk, just the current level? 01:37:31 when you load a level, you load an mitem with all the saved item data for the level 01:37:34 yes 01:37:40 and that data is marshalled for each level 01:37:45 k 01:38:39 so what is the difference between item.link and inv.slot 01:38:48 don't know why I bring up marshalling really, but the point is that you only get direct access to items of the currently loaded level 01:51:52 -!- regret-index has joined ##crawl-dev 01:51:56 !learn edit regretindex[1] s|.*|http://pastie.org/10886004| 01:51:56 regretindex[1/2]: http://pastie.org/10886004 01:51:59 !learn edit regretindex[1] s|.*|http://pastie.org/10886004| 01:51:59 No change! 01:52:03 !learn del regretindex[2] 01:52:10 Deleted regretindex[2/2]: cut down decks: escape as elixir / velocity / shaft+tomb / solitude+exile / cloud, destruction as vitriol+venom / storm / pain / orb / degen / wild magic, no war, summoning as pentagram / elements + uglies / rangers / illusion / dance / foxfire. need some god/etc home for blade/fortitude. 01:52:10 -!- regret-index has left ##crawl-dev 01:52:57 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:58 The build has errored. (master - 703e437 #5980 : regret-index): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/139398137 01:52:59 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 01:56:02 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-735-g703e437 01:56:37 gammafunk: ooh, yes, it should be vaults_orient_n. how did I miss that in testing 01:57:52 I don't like that snakebite vault but I'm not sure how to fix it 01:58:16 but it's shaped like a snake! 01:58:25 what if i put "don't tread on me" under it 01:58:48 yeah the snake really does tie the whole snake together, does it not? 01:59:57 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:54 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:01:03 also, it has snakes in it! 02:01:10 it's the snake that keeps on giving 02:02:54 also the subst in that vault are almost like you knew I'd try to impose some non-binomial dist on your vaults 02:03:01 and that was your way of saying "fuck you" 02:04:09 anyway I guess you can technically redeem that drawing now 02:05:08 just make something as good as the ball cancer comic when you see the right opportunity 02:06:57 so like the jorgun pic then, got it 02:07:00 jorgrun, even 02:08:45 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-735-g703e437 (34) 02:10:54 03regret-index02 07* 0.19-a0-736-g3ff4acb: Fix an Elf:$ vault's connectivity (travis-ci) 10(29 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ff4acb07b6e 02:11:22 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:13:32 -!- VoxSomniator_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:18:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:18:55 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:04 -!- Guest96 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:26:45 oh never mind, I didn't really read it correctly 02:26:49 there's more open space 02:27:32 ah, it's the ruin tag 02:27:34 that's why 02:48:19 -!- jeefus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:34 -!- Sonderblade has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:59 -!- ebering_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:59 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-736-g3ff4acb 02:55:05 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:06 The build passed. (master - 3ff4acb #5981 : regret-index): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/139405520 02:55:06 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 03:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:28 -!- vale_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:50 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:04:43 -!- dhm has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:44 -!- Telnaior has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:44 -!- jefus has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:45 -!- jbenedetto has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:45 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:46 -!- namad7 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:46 -!- ebering has quit [*.net *.split] 03:04:58 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:43 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:08:32 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-736-g3ff4acb (34) 03:16:57 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:18:32 -!- friendfixit is now known as olscumpy 03:19:32 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:29 -!- joy19999 is now known as joy1999 03:22:37 -!- Jafet has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:23:31 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-736-g3ff4acb (34) 03:24:24 %git 2c7957d 03:24:24 07regret-index02 * 0.19-a0-720-g2c7957d: Adjust meliai, use newly-formicid entropy weavers in the same capacity 10(32 hours ago, 7 files, 125+ 102-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2c7957d687fb 03:30:36 -!- ololoev has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:12 -!- Leszczynek has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:49:29 -!- hellmonk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:51:42 -!- Naruni has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:39 -!- doll has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:17 -!- olscumpy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:46 -!- olscumpy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:06:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 04:15:29 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:16:31 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:16:41 -!- Laraso has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:12 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:22:52 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:07 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:27 -!- cribozai has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:33:32 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:35:39 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:27 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:06 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:59 -!- olscumpy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:09 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-737-g7c57ab6: Even more minmay vaults: guarded unrands 10(2 hours ago, 5 files, 553+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7c57ab64502c 04:40:13 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:40:52 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:49 -!- akr_ is now known as Staalorm 05:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:44 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:08:36 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-737-g7c57ab6 (34) 05:10:10 -!- dhm_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:13 -!- sooheon_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:12:30 -!- sooheon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:48 -!- joy1999 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:42:24 -!- joy19999 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:51:55 -!- Ideocl4st has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:15 -!- raikaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:31 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:10:50 -!- dhm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:27 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 06:21:03 -!- wheals_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:55 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:58 -!- Demise_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:33 -!- jetnerd_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34:02 -!- Staalorm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:33 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:47:00 -!- mibe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:37 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:00 -!- debo_ is now known as Guest5934 07:08:33 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:33 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:39 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:12:41 -!- dhm has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:46:13 -!- Wax has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:46:29 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:53:30 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:57:01 -!- Rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:03 -!- andre_1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:11 -!- Rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:03 -!- docnvk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:48 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:25:13 -!- Guest5934 has quit [Quit: orb spiders :(] 08:25:18 -!- Mekire has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:26:51 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:42:29 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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##crawl-dev 14:40:09 i wonder if dismissal would annoy people less if it only triggered when the player was at below half hp, or only on heavy hits, or something like that 14:40:49 maybe 14:40:59 PleasingFungus: half hp sounds like a big improvement to me 14:41:00 I tend to like it most when it gets rid of something nasty 14:41:24 well I dunno, large damage sounds possibly better, but I guess it's a problem either way 14:41:34 what's a problem, sorry? 14:41:49 just with "arbitrary cutoffs" I guess 14:41:58 i think gammafunk means that no "do you *really* want to teleport this away" heuristic will be perfect 14:42:10 yeah 14:42:19 I've used it at higher hp to get rid of Bad Things 14:42:21 sure 14:42:28 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:42:50 In my mind 'heavy hit' works better than half hp but I could be wrong about that 14:43:05 my problem with having it only work on larger threats is that those are the ones that *really* boil my blood if i've spent like !might !agi to kill it, and it's almost dead, and then it teleports away 14:43:30 whereas if i'm below half hp i'm probably in enough danger to be a bit grateful for a teleport even if it's almost dead 14:43:34 amalloy: Is this a problem with having it work on heavy hits? 14:43:55 gammafunk: the problem i see with heavy hits is it doesn't account for multiple medium-size attacks from one monster 14:44:04 like it won't teleport away trolls because they have three mid-size attacks 14:44:13 (or whatever) 14:44:24 @??caustic shrike 14:44:24 caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 87-126 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4609 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal. 14:44:26 hrm, well I'd imagine if it only worked on a per-attack basis it'd probably be ok? 14:44:40 @??executioner 14:44:40 Executioner (151) | Spd: 20 | HD: 12 | HP: 53-78 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 30, 10, 10 | 05demonic, 10doors, fighter, unholy, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2311 | Sp: pain (d14) [06!sil], haste [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human. 14:44:49 @??deep troll 14:44:49 deep troll (08T) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 47-65 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 27, 2009(claw), 2009(claw) | 10doors, see invisible, regen | Res: 06magic(40), 08blind | XP: 730 | Sz: Large | Int: human. 14:45:54 I guess I'm not a fan checking my hp percentage to know if the amulet is useless or not 14:46:05 yeah, a hard breakpoint wouldn't be good 14:46:28 could try to do some kind of tdam-like effect 14:46:50 damage taken from a source in the last turn might work, yeah 14:47:13 funny idea: at end of turn, if you took heavy tdam, dismiss everything [that damaged you|in LOS] 14:47:25 weird for sbl users 14:48:29 that would probably create some strange problems with low dam things getting dismissed, and there just beeing too much dismissal in general, which is kind of the problem we're trying to solve 14:48:52 yeah, just brainstorming 14:49:11 sticking closer to the current effect is probably a better idea 14:49:20 dismiss all spectators when you take significant damage 14:49:22 gammafunk: you can fix the hard-breakpoint idea by gradually scaling from "never dismiss at full HP" to "often dismiss at low HP", although of course you never want to get to "always dismiss" 14:49:23 they don't need to see this 14:49:52 * PleasingFungus shoos Cheibriados away. 14:49:59 basing that scaling on tdam instead of hp% sounds fine to me too though 14:50:21 if something hits you for a third of your hp or w/e, you probably want it gone even if you still have 2/3rds left 14:50:28 because: yikes 14:50:35 Yeah that's kind of where I'm coming from 14:50:50 but what amalloy said would address the breakpoint problem 14:51:35 yeah, i figured you'd end up doing something vaguely like that if you went with hp % 14:51:57 maybe not scaling from 100% hp; as long as it's not a hard breakpoint i think it's ok, given amulet swapping penalties 14:52:23 but tdam seems like it would be a better approach than hp% anyway, if we can figure some reasonable way of tracking per-source tdam 14:52:37 PleasingFungus: sdam 14:52:46 hrm 14:53:25 you.source_damage, apparently. will grep 14:53:27 i think a problem with scaling based tdam and sdam is that turn boundaries are weird 14:53:36 yeah 14:53:55 i mean, the actual problem we're trying to solve is tracking multiple attacks in a set 14:54:00 trolls or w/e 14:54:01 do you teleport at the end of monster turns or player turns? if the latter, monsters that attack you later during your turn will have a lower tdam 14:54:06 er, higher 14:54:30 actually i think everything i said in that sentence was backwards 14:54:33 heh 14:54:35 i get the idea 14:55:06 i feel like we might want to go with something narrower and just track specifically monster attack sets together, rather than doing a full tdam or even sdam. idk how that'll be to implement, though 14:55:59 that makes dismissal significantly stronger against a spd 10 monster with two 20-damage attacks than against a spd 20 monster with one 20-damage attack 14:56:08 ok. 14:56:09 whereas honestly the latter is a lot scarier 14:56:57 that doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong idea, just something to keep in mind 14:58:15 i feel like just using tdam - even in some modified form that triggers at the start of the player's turn based on accumulated damage from various monsters, for example - is going to be weird in any case where you have unusual length turns, e.g. sbl or cheiwalking 14:58:49 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:58:53 you can scale by the length of your turn 14:58:58 and it probably comes out about the same 14:59:02 but yes, that is a problem too 14:59:25 hrm, that's reasonable 14:59:34 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 15:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:46 Someone write down the solution to quantum gravity so we can understand this dismissal shit 15:04:59 no physics in the underworld^Wdungeon, it's all magic :p 15:05:38 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:08:22 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:35 i guess dismissal is currently a 10% chance per-hit 15:12:01 -!- stanzill has quit [Changing host] 15:13:08 my vague feeling for a low-effort improvement would be to make it a 25% chance at 0% hp, scaling to 0% at maybe 80% or 90% hp? 15:13:13 and then revisit the tdam thing later 15:17:04 i think dismissal is maybe just not a good effect 15:17:50 in that it's either just annoying, or makes what would otherwise be weak characters a whole lot safer for no substantial cost 15:19:23 can you elaborate on the latter? 15:20:02 you passively make scary monsters disappear without having to spend any consumables 15:20:25 i don' 15:20:55 t really understand this argument. lots of things make scary monsters no longer threats. resistances, slaying, defenses, etc. 15:21:18 dismissal's entire role is to annoy you in trivial fights and randomly save you from nontrivial ones 15:21:55 i think that the annoying is bad, but i don't think there's a problem with randomly being saved from a dangerous fight, as long as it's not reliable. 15:22:41 an amulet of dismissal is a piece of loot, which improves your character by letting you trade your amulet slot for a chance of pseudo-lifesaving. 15:22:45 it's not necessarily bad, but I see no reason it should be pursued 15:23:09 ok. 15:24:01 the chance of it teleporting things should scale with the damage from the hit imo 15:24:15 ontoclasm: we discussed this a bunch 15:24:20 * ontoclasm shrugs 15:24:22 check the scrollback 15:24:29 ok 15:24:41 i'm not against the idea, it's just a pain to get it working really well 15:24:59 might be better than an hp-based approach anyway 15:26:55 i just don't see random pseudo-lifesaving as a particularly good thing to exist on an amulet slot, your examples of slaying and resistances and better defenses have a lot more interaction with whatever it is you're doing the rest of the time 15:29:10 they also don't automatically kill the monster for you when you do nothing 15:35:40 I'm going to push this change, and if people want to remove it later, they can do that. 15:37:07 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-738-g3c61671: Reduce Dismissal annoyance 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 22+ 16-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3c616719d591 15:45:04 MarvinPA: you might be right! not sure. maybe would be better as a god effect or something else. 15:45:22 hm, i think your comment there is wrong? (or the code is) 15:45:26 i'd vaguely thought it was a shorter ranged teleport, tending to land just out of LOS (hence a very short reprieve), but maybe i've just gotten bad teleports? 15:45:34 also there's a bonus ; 15:45:40 ;_; 15:45:55 oh, right, i changed my mind about the chance and then forgot to revise the comment 15:45:57 good catch 15:46:18 i think the range thing might feel like it's the case because when you teleport things away with it they don't lose track of you, so if you just rest where you are they'll find you again fairly easily? 15:46:21 not certain 15:46:22 yeah 15:46:36 it might be better if it worked the way i sort of felt like it did? 15:46:56 possibly, yeah 15:47:04 -!- docnvk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:17 -!- Kenran has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:33 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-739-gf2af308: Cosmetic fixes for prev. commit (MarvinPA) 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f2af308c6bf3 15:47:49 would mean it wouldn't be specially effective against enemy summons, as was the initial design intent, but original intent is overrated 15:48:25 would want to think about the short-ranged teleport thing more, though; not sure it'd actually fix any problems the effect has 15:48:44 i didn't even know that was supposed to be a thing! i've never thought about it being relevant there as opposed to just in normal fights 15:49:27 if anything it seems actively bad! in that teleporting away a summoner who has summoned some things is potentially worse than just teleporting away a regular enemy 15:50:20 (assuming the summoner itself is hitting you too, and you're trying to kill it to take out the summons) 15:50:46 MarvinPA: the idea is that teleporting away a summon is basically killing it 15:50:59 whereas teleporting away a normal enemy is... less so 15:51:13 teleporting away a summoner is bad ofc 15:51:29 except in frictionless perfectly spherical crawl 15:51:31 but yeah 15:51:32 oooo 15:51:55 fr: frictionless perfectly spherical branch 15:52:02 monsters that teleport are dead to me 15:52:17 movement only stops when you hit a wall, levels wrap left-right (but not top-bottom) 15:52:30 (since that'd be a perfectly toroidal branch, obviously.) 15:53:01 i think there's an ancient and complicated devwiki page with terrain types for frictionless movement 15:53:24 lol 15:53:24 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:terrain_types#standing_air 15:53:43 that sounds like a cylinder 15:53:48 have to bring back levitation as a separate effect from flight first though 15:53:54 obv 15:53:58 without a top or bottom 15:54:24 - Probably spectacularly breaks travel & autoexplore. Not to mention AI. 15:54:35 gammafunk: shh 15:54:42 you just have to sort of... squeeze the top & bottom a bit. 15:55:31 Crazy Yuif says, "It's not a sphere! It's a cylinder! Listen to me! It's really a cylinder!" 15:55:38 oh gosh this page has all the cliff proposals too 15:55:55 -!- olscumpy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:04 crawl3d 15:56:14 i feel like 15:56:16 Is it even better than eronarn's crawl weapon planning doc? 15:56:31 designs should try to work with the 2d, tile-based nature of crawl, rather than fight it as hard as they can. 15:57:52 haha 15:57:55 infiniplex put his elven glass at the end of this 15:57:59 ya i just saw that 15:58:09 He really liked that idea 15:58:17 it doesn't seem, like, unreasonable. 15:58:31 Yeah, I think even maymay proposed that runed door be transparent 15:58:36 *doors 15:59:11 but given the single-corridor layouts, one thing that elf does not need is more transparent walls 15:59:21 I need to just shut up about it and go tweak those layouts 15:59:22 you can open doors! 16:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:09 it's more the thought of "wake up enemies in a room so they can single-file into a corridor so you can kill them" 16:00:16 this is really a problem with those layouts though 16:01:01 digging exists and the walls are still rock, so it's always going to be a thing to a significant degree 16:01:16 but at least we can make the player work for it more 16:01:42 -!- DevlanMud|Lappy has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:02:13 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:02:15 oh that reminds me that the summon earth elementals thing is still incredibly weird 16:02:45 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]] 16:02:59 it feels very inelegant and i'm not sure it really solves whatever problem it's trying to solve 16:03:51 MarvinPA: what did you think of the "put the elf3 vault in a portal" idea 16:05:47 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:11 seems maybe interesting, although i don't really think kiting stuff in elf is so much more of a problem than it is just generally (which is part of why the earth elemental thing feels so weird to me) 16:07:39 i approve of calling minmay "maymay" 16:07:39 wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:07:42 !messages 16:07:43 (1/1) regret-index said (22h 46m 8s ago): don't delete [laplace] until it's all done for it and the essay in it to serve as a reference point 16:07:58 i am become death, deleter of branches 16:08:35 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-739-gf2af308 (34) 16:10:15 usually people call me "minimay" 16:11:52 also, can confirm that summon earth elementals doesnt make elf:3 any harder 16:12:20 and runed doors should obviously be transparent 16:12:33 p.s. remove monster siz 16:12:33 e 16:17:19 !lm * br.end=elf !boring recentish newelf / lg:place=elf:3 16:17:23 !lm * br.end=elf !boring recentish !newelf / lg:place=elf:3 16:17:41 1213/11962 milestones for * (br.end=elf !boring recentish newelf): N=1213/11962 (10.14%) 16:17:44 2234/23800 milestones for * (br.end=elf !boring recentish !newelf): N=2234/23800 (9.39%) 16:19:11 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:12 The build has errored. (master - 3c61671 #5983 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/139578204 16:19:12 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 16:19:27 ERRORED 16:19:50 hrm 16:19:52 yes, that increase couldn't possibly be because of anything else, such as the game having 4 fewer levels to die on 16:19:56 -!- Telnaior_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:20:22 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:49 or people not understanding newelf, or ordinary variation 16:21:21 or including meleebug games 16:21:26 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 16:21:35 yes, that query couldn't possibly be anything other than me arguing all of those things that you just refuted 16:22:00 I didn't think you were, but I figured if you weren't, someone would do so sooner or later 16:24:02 We have a master of shadowboxing in here 16:25:51 shadowbox of shadowbeasts 16:26:31 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:27:04 fr: remove resistances so that people stop thinking they're required in order to win 16:28:24 -!- jj123 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:29:27 shadowbox_level_dp 16:31:25 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:03 -!- Xenobreeder has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:31 minmay: Would cause a huge spike in OoF deaths 16:36:05 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 16:36:23 what would? 16:36:35 -!- docnvk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:37 fr: remove resistances so that people stop thinking they're required in order to win 16:36:48 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 16:37:32 oh 16:37:33 hah 16:38:05 yeah, i almost always use stat/ac/ev/slaying gear over any given resist 16:38:36 but when i was bad(der) and dumb(er) i tended to wear resist stuff even if i didn't have an immediate need to 16:38:54 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:12 uh 16:41:27 why didn't we use denzi's MAGNIFICENT hydra tiles for the lernaean hydra... 16:41:31 http://www3.wind.ne.jp/DENZI/diary/Denzi110619-4.png 16:41:33 cf top right 16:41:46