00:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:41 -!- JStrange has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:01 amalloy: your youtube profile shows up blank in my subs feed https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9fq4ooI1POPRXFHMmVKMUpXaUU 00:05:26 chequers: google+ sharing rules pls 00:05:47 sorry its not visible 00:05:50 also my profile probably is blank. the only thing there is my name and some videos 00:06:14 google here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9fq4ooI1POPRXFHMmVKMUpXaUU/view?usp=sharing 00:06:28 -!- lordfrikk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:11 oh, you mean there's no profile picture? 00:07:22 that's true. i guess i could add one 00:08:51 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-517-gd6a9987 (34) 00:09:06 -!- oxeimon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:09:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:48 -!- Jafet has joined ##crawl-dev 00:10:59 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:11:51 -!- techieAgnostic has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4-dev] 00:15:37 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:27 chequers: last i checked, all of my videos were too slow for you, but i guess you're still subscribed. do you watch any of it? 00:20:12 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:29 -!- shummie has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:22:33 amalloy: still subscribed, don't watch many 00:23:04 i tend to watch the last part of your dcss playthroughs 00:24:01 but yeah, I don't find your videos very exciting 00:24:44 interesting. why the last part? 00:27:49 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:33 what I like about your videos is that you verbalise your tactical/strategic thinking pretty well, but what I don't like is mostly how slooowwwww you play 00:30:55 like, I just opened your huas video and skipped to a random point, and watched you inspect potions and scroll inventory for about 10 secs 00:30:59 chequers: how do you feel about ultraviolent's fevm videos 00:31:20 er, demise 00:31:23 not ultraviolent 00:31:43 I think this is the one I'm thinking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3p790jiRvo 00:31:55 -!- Rast has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:07 CanOfWorms: just in general? it's alright, not that different to his usual style i guess 00:33:41 that particular video is pretty funny because he goes insane in depths 00:34:38 -!- Rast has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:08 CanOfWorms: i'm not sure how i could even tell that apart from normal demise. what time in the video is this alleged insanity? 00:38:07 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:18 "not only is he as fast as we are" 00:40:23 very accurate 00:40:30 re an iron giant 00:40:41 -!- JStrange has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:44 glad I watched that video for 20 seconds 00:41:21 Spd 12 iron giants when 00:42:39 -!- Amphouse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:42:46 the funny thing is he said that while kiting it 00:43:01 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:44:05 amalloy: about 20 minutes in 00:44:21 when he's clearing some kindof vault 00:45:25 annoying: if you see an enemy but you can't walk to them, you can't press o or tab 00:45:30 _No reachable target in view! 00:45:30 _A mummy is nearby! 00:54:55 -!- Tarara has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:05 probably crippling for many players 01:04:04 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:06:19 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:06:19 0.19 trunk changelog: elliptic accidentally increases global winrate by three percentage points, by stopping players from charging towards monsters with no plan of attack 01:06:50 imo tab would be a lot better if it passed turns instead of walking towards monsters >.> 01:07:35 ontoclasm: shift-tab 01:07:43 also you can configure tab to act like shift-tab 01:08:30 -!- Calamarain has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08:58 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:09:34 -!- Mekire has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:10:02 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 01:10:36 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:04 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:14:05 elliptic accidentally increases global winrate by three percentage points by adding qw to the default init.txt file 01:15:24 fo should be able to dig statues 01:15:51 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:33 amalloy: your videos are on my list to watch, they aren't speedruns/highscores right? 01:17:03 rchandra: no, i just try to win the game 01:17:15 a noble goal 01:17:59 hm, maybe i should add playlist-groups for the CSDC games and for the t0.18 games 01:18:16 i was about to suggest you try out one or the other of those, and realized there's no good link to provide 01:18:35 heh. yeah, lists are a good way to look into an established channel 01:18:50 per game list is a good place to start imo 01:18:55 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-517-gd6a9987 (34) 01:19:04 (see also, every blog in the world being comlpetely useless if you didn't read it in realtime) 01:21:28 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22:37 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23:12 we need to get amalloy to do a twitch stream sometime 01:23:37 I feel he'd proably be sort of discombobulated by it all and that would make for a great stream 01:23:38 gammafunk: you can watch the archives of my old Dominion streams anytime you want 01:24:01 amalloy: do you watch SRFunkDoc at all? 01:24:05 I think that's his handle 01:24:17 i have never heard of this person 01:24:18 he did a great power grid video 01:24:23 *srkfunkdoc 01:24:41 Does dominion and (oddly) mame arcade, did a bunch of GDQ appearances as well 01:25:08 he must have joined the forums after i left 01:25:28 -!- Placid has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:25:30 but I don't know anything about dominion, other than it's about cards 01:26:17 amalloy: don't worry, if you did one I'd be on-hand to request touhou music 01:27:46 i know i can count on you 01:29:04 I just hope dynast would have internet at the time so he could share that playlist 01:29:34 stream crawl dev 01:29:51 sick real-time god implementation 01:30:14 and deimplementations, with a real-time marvin counter 01:30:20 I would do a dev stream if there was really enough material for one 01:30:45 rchandra: that's a great idea actually, a millisnark and a millimarvin counter 01:31:06 ??millisnark 01:31:06 millisnark[1/1]: <|amethyst> a millisnark is 191 lines of code added 01:32:14 nice, I found two randarts with relec and rf++ 01:32:40 actually the properties are pretty funny 01:33:08 +5 flail {holy rElec rF++ Dex+3 Sinv} vs +3 rapier {drain rElec rF++ Str+4 Stealth-} 01:33:22 amalloy: console evangelism is getting me to watch at least a few no matter what :) 01:33:29 ha 01:34:28 rchandra: I have a LOS-only mini console window on my streams now as well, but it's not the best to watch 01:34:36 still cool to have 01:34:46 streams are ungood though 01:34:52 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:01 rchandra: there are vods/highlights 01:35:11 dang, medium elitism 01:35:21 but yeah usual stream-related things apply, bg music, chat shown in stream 01:35:25 it's not just the delivery, it's the ... yeah, that 01:35:49 and usually callouts, injokes, etc. 01:36:06 yeah those are good selling points, it's true 01:36:13 gammafunk's stream would be 10x better if he had a text-to-speech donation box 01:36:53 yeah you say that, but people don't like parting with their money 01:38:10 you'd be surprised, gammafunk 01:38:27 well I do read any donation comments on stream 01:38:34 it's just none of you nerds have any cash 01:38:51 maybe you should advertise that fact 01:38:52 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:00 some of these vods start racking up dozens of views and it makes me want to save them, but probably better for quality over quantity 01:39:02 because this is the first I hear about it 01:39:42 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:50 Well if you've seen stream sub/donations, you'd have an expectation for the streamer to mention the donation/sub, and usually they read the donation text 01:40:05 people will pay other people hilarious amounts of money to have a robot say dumb shit on a stream 01:40:26 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:59 they won't really, not for a niche stream of game that only draws more or less seriously interested people 01:41:10 now a stream with hundreds of live viewers? sure 01:41:21 then your dick joke gets wide distribution 01:41:22 yeah if your view count is <200 or so you won't get jack 01:41:50 yes. it is important that many people see you paying someone to insult them 01:41:55 biggest view count I've ever gotten to was nearly 100 when some guy hosted me for like 80 01:42:04 usually it's 15-30 01:42:41 -!- Twinge has quit [] 01:46:52 i haven't even gotten 100 views on a video, and those last forever. perhaps ironically, my most-watched video is the one with no gameplay at all. my first video, "DCSS: Introduction and Preliminaries" 01:47:06 -!- eb has quit [] 01:47:07 81 views on that 01:47:16 well, you do have a ton of videos, so I'm sure it's all spread out 01:47:23 that's a good one to have a lot of views on anyhow 01:47:40 yeah 01:47:40 -!- FireSight has quit [] 01:48:05 crawl is a game about illiteracy - "bad guys are almost all letters" 01:48:06 this month with the viewership spike for t, i got 10k minutes of watch time 01:48:25 my most-watched video is also my first, which is horrible since the quality of everything is terrible 01:49:22 rchandra: when i encounter a war gargoyle i become a strong proponent of innumeracy as well 01:49:30 mmm 01:49:30 (not in that video) 01:55:33 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-517-gd6a9987 01:55:53 amalloy: did you ever finish that felid? 01:56:19 no 01:56:23 i have banished him to live in zot:5 forever 01:56:36 brutal 01:57:15 orb guardians are just big softies once you get to know them 01:57:39 -!- Isvaffel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:12 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:18 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:53 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15:10 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:16:55 -!- sage1234 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:07 -!- Bcadren_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:21:38 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 02:25:40 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:21 -!- destrovel has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:28:45 -!- mong has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:40 @??ghost moth 02:36:40 ghost moth (06y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 13 | HP: 58-81 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 1802(drain stat), 1802(drain stat), 1204(strong poison:47-84) | fly | Res: 06magic(100), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1676 | Sp: draining gaze [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 02:36:53 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:37:06 @??emperor scorpion 02:37:06 emperor scorpion (15s) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 101-139 | AC/EV: 20/12 | Dam: 3008(poison:28-56), 1509(claw), 1509(claw) | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 1632 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 02:41:21 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: poof!] 02:45:06 http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id=rlike&no=29709 02:45:20 i think cwz has some sort of chat replacement 02:52:41 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-517-gd6a9987 02:56:50 chequers: someone needs to tell google translate that 로그라이크 is roguelike, not "a log-like" 02:58:43 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:52 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:15 -!- nikheizen has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:03:22 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.19-a0-518-g626ee58: Brighten the Shadow Imp tile (roctavian) 10(12 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/626ee587cc18 03:08:55 amalloy: there are some great tranliterations that google translate shows up 03:10:05 -!- Demise_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:14:38 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: poof!] 03:14:55 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-518-g626ee58 (34) 03:17:24 Lasty_: korean response to your change is... difficult to understand http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id=rlike&no=30707&page=2 03:20:25 -!- vale_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:56 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:21:56 minmay: on your acquirement spoiler http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id=rlike&no=30660&page=3 03:24:45 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Quit: I like to rock] 03:25:31 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 03:32:33 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: I'M OUT SON. PEACE, LOVE, EXPLOSIONS.] 03:36:58 ??hive 03:36:58 hive[1/1]: Very fun branch that was removed in 0.9. Contained a lot of fun bees and fun honeycombs and fun royal jellies. 03:37:01 was it a multi level branch? 03:37:17 ditto for hall of blades 03:38:25 Hive was four levels once upon a time 03:38:41 Hall of blades was always one-level if I remember correctly 03:40:19 ty 03:40:26 !lg * blade 03:40:29 399. dredsubb the Unseen (L20 VSAs of Trog), mangled by a dire flail of protection in Blade (hall_of_blades) on 2014-08-20 11:43:58, with 273023 points after 39964 turns and 2:40:29. 03:40:39 apparently so 03:41:19 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45:22 -!- Idolo has quit [] 03:49:47 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:47 The build passed. (master - 626ee58 #5789 : ontoclasm): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/135521889 03:49:47 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 03:58:54 whoa, wyverns look cool now 04:00:05 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:11 -!- friendfixit has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:12 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:21 -!- olscumpy has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:01:28 -!- friendfixit is now known as olscumpy 04:03:01 -!- Blade- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:31 %git :/layout_city 04:03:31 07Grunt02 * 0.15-a0-786-ge7378b2: Remove random loot rooms from layout_roguey and layout_city. 10(2 years, 1 month ago, 1 file, 2+ 54-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7378b289fb5 04:03:48 hmm 04:04:18 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:02 %git :/adjust fload Crypt endings 04:06:02 Could not find commit :/adjust fload Crypt endings (git returned 128) 04:06:24 ah there it is 04:06:27 %git de31b62d 04:06:27 07Grunt02 * 0.18-a0-377-gde31b62: Tag / slightly adjust float Crypt endings to get them to place better. 10(6 months ago, 3 files, 68+ 67-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de31b62de9c3 04:09:54 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:09:59 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-518-g626ee58 (34) 04:10:31 -!- maxonian has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:12:48 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:25:39 -!- Jafet has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.5] 04:33:00 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:02 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:21 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:43 -!- ByronJohnson has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:39:01 -!- fazisi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:39:34 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:34 -!- fazisi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:12 -!- edsrzf has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:58 -!- Laptop_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:06:09 -!- tealeaves has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:23:55 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:25:23 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:32:47 -!- Jafet has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:55 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 05:46:27 !tell pleasingfungus when remembering ancestor identity, you get a different memory when renaming them if you pick the same gender as they already had vs a different one, which i think is a slightly ugly ux wrinkle 05:46:28 chequers: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 05:48:31 whoa 05:48:33 i just got zero uses out of a sack of spiders 05:49:02 like 1/3 chance of that 05:49:27 damn, is that new? 05:51:40 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:23 -!- Demise_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:24 ProzacElf: you can train evo to make the chance of that much less 05:57:33 mmm 05:57:48 i had about 6 or so 05:59:14 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:35 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:40 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:13:40 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:55 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:29:24 -!- Nattefrost has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:37:20 -!- filthy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:41:45 -!- glaas has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:49:27 -!- Amphouse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:52:04 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:20 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:22 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:08 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:22:29 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:26:53 -!- ZiBuDo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:24 -!- ZiBuDo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:45:14 -!- Smello has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:46:44 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:08 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:30 -!- staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:51 apparently it is possible for a zot trap to create an eldritch tentacle friendly to the player 08:07:33 I think the situation was that a monster stepped on the zot trap and targeted an ally of the player (a BiA) 08:09:44 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:16:06 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:17:40 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:20:07 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:49 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:00 -!- Denapoli has quit [] 08:29:25 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:47:49 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:46 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:54:42 -!- pantaril_ is now known as pantaril 08:55:35 -!- Patashu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:54 -!- Grivan has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:43 -!- Nattefrost has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:55 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:07 -!- ByronJohnson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:07 -!- Nothus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:13:05 -!- Lasty_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:16 gammafunk, elliptic: I missed the conversation about mp regen last night, but I'd love to weigh in. My hopes with the MP Regen amulet was to use it as a springboard to remove CBoE and staff of energy. I think the passive mp regen is better for the game than these forms of active MP regen. 09:16:27 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:16:50 There is overlap w/ increased MP from MP+9 items, but there's a marked difference between a high regen rate and a high initial pool. 09:17:11 I think merging Regen and MPRegen amulets isn't a bad idea, but it's definitely a buff. 09:17:42 I'm a little surprised to hear that the MpRegen amulet should be toned down or constitutes power creep, since I've mostly heard from people that's it's useless. 09:17:52 But that may have been a bad sample of opinions 09:17:53 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:18 <|amethyst> Lasty_: part of what elliptic meant was that increasing max MP also increses regen rate 09:18:25 yeah, it's true 09:18:32 but to a much smaller degree 09:18:41 The amulet gives regen rate equal to +40 mp 09:18:43 -!- LexAckson__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:08 <|amethyst> Lasty_: hm 09:19:21 <|amethyst> Lasty_: oh, here's a problem 09:19:29 This argument is similar to saying that Amulet of Vitality shouldn't exist, because +hp and Regen+ are the same thing, so why do both? 09:19:29 <|amethyst> Lasty_: that bonus comes after timescaling 09:19:37 <|amethyst> Lasty_: "MPregen works better with short blade 09:19:38 <|amethyst> s 09:19:42 |amethyst: oops, really? 09:19:46 My mistake 09:20:03 <|amethyst> !source player-reacts.cc:968 09:20:03 that definitely needs to be fixed 09:20:03 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player-reacts.cc#l968 09:21:11 yeah, I should be adding to base_val tehre 09:21:18 instead of mp_regen_countup 09:21:27 should be an easy fix 09:21:49 !learn add lasty_to_do[1 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player-reacts.cc#l968 |amethyst 09:21:49 lasty to do[1/13]: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player-reacts.cc#l968 |amethyst 09:22:00 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:33 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:08 Lasty_: MP regen is pretty useless on most characters and incredibly good on those that care about spending MP, especially if you get it before lategame 09:33:34 obviously 27 evo CBOE is better, but you shouldn't really be comparing an amulet with that 09:33:37 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:09 Lasty_: the MP+9 / MPRegen thing was a power creep argument, not a redundancy argument 09:34:13 -!- mopl has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:34:29 we've made both effects much more common recently 09:35:04 and they mostly help the same characters 09:36:26 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:41 -!- removeelyvilon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:03 it used to be that conjurers/summoners had limited ways of improving their MP and no real way to increase mana regeneration or recover MP other than various gods and CBOE (which is somewhat dangerous to use) 09:38:46 now I regularly see earlygame chars with huge MP regeneration rates and lategame chars with 70-80 MP, and a spectrum between that as well 09:39:56 /lightning doublezap targetting not working 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10479 by Le_Nerd 09:40:04 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:40:39 I have no idea what is being discussed but just to throw in my 2 copper: not all uf us are lucky enough to find a source of channeling or mp regen or play high mp race 09:42:08 and high spellcasting/evo/invo apt 09:42:40 Well anyway I have a question for you 09:43:00 are there more plans atm to reduce sources of allies 09:43:55 or did we weather the storm 09:44:53 ^that sounded more negative than it was supposed to 09:46:49 well since I'm obviously unwanted and/or I don't have the time to do the customary "it takes a lot of time to translate something to good old Entish" ritual I will show myself the door. sorry to have bothered you. 09:47:01 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:51:07 -!- Dalwyn has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:53:53 -!- maxonian has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:58:24 Lasty_: it is possible that I am overrating current amulet of MP regeneration - I was partially reacting to the suggestion that it be combined with regular regen (and possibly then lots of randarts would be given it) 09:58:59 Lasty_: I do think that MP+9 randart proliferation is an issue regardless though and that we've been moving in a dangerous direction 10:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:46 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:12:00 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:59 -!- ystael has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:24:13 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:27 -!- yesno has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:26 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:35:26 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:24 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:42:11 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42:52 elliptic: perhaps we should scale back / remove MP+9. I do think it's very good right now. I also think that having some MP boost items is good -- early game MP is down a bit since the MP scaling changes anyway. I'm not sure if late-game huge MP pools are an issue, but it's certainly worth considering. 10:47:12 There are a lot of good players who think magic is too weak to be worth using conjurations, even w/ the current set-up. I think they're wrong, but it seems to me that it indicates that high MP conjurations is probably not OP right now. High MP summons probably are, but summons in general are. 10:49:02 so this breaks the nevermiss brand 10:49:07 %git a6dc20555 10:49:07 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-246-ga6dc205: Don't crash when a ranged attacker dies (elliptic) 10(13 days ago, 2 files, 9+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a6dc20555d9a 10:49:51 Lasty_: I'd suggest starting by making MP+9 half as common on randarts as it is currently 10:50:02 elliptic: that seems fair 10:50:04 Lasty_: this isn't really about early game - randarts in early game are rare anyway 10:50:20 !learn add lasty_to_do[1 cut MP+9 spawn rate in half 10:50:21 lasty to do[1/14]: cut MP+9 spawn rate in half 10:50:25 and I wonder how many of these players who think magic is too weak think that because of early game 10:51:03 or because of speedruns - melee speedruns are certainly simpler (and likely better) 10:51:24 elliptic: I'm not sure. My personal theory is that magic feels weak because it often takes more realtime to kill monstesr 10:52:01 realtime speedruns then :P certainly it is easier to win in two or three hours without using conjurations 10:52:35 I know tabstorm is on record saying spells >L4 are bad investments, and as I understand it he mostly speedruns 10:52:37 I think we might also want to nerf melee at some point btw - it has received various buffs over the last few years 10:52:47 elliptic: I'd be in favor 10:52:52 elliptic: got a nerf in mind? 10:53:29 remove melee 10:53:33 not sure offhand - one thing I want to look into at some point is how the str/dex weight removal increased damage 10:53:51 definitely worth investigating 10:54:26 my impression from playing and from vaguely remembering what that code looked like is that raising str is very powerful right now 10:54:46 compared with dex I mean 10:55:23 if that is true, reducing the str damage bonus by a bit (multiplying by 3/4 or something) might be a good idea 10:56:06 I wonder if it would be good to make accuracy matter more at some point. 10:56:22 it matters a lot in some situations 10:56:27 mainly early game 10:56:31 sure; mostly spriggans and adders 10:56:33 yeah 10:56:34 but the formula is weird yes 10:56:56 Lasty_: no, by the time you get to spriggans your accuracy isn't that relevant I think - you are going to miss a bunch regardless 10:57:10 it is mainly early on when your accuracy is close to 0 that it can matter a lot 10:57:24 My modeling of +!might versus +slaying indicated that more accuracy from slaying makes a big difference against spriggans 10:57:34 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:57:45 really? maybe that depends on how much you have already 10:57:51 it probably does, yeah 10:58:14 you can also end up quite low later on if you have heavy armour and a large shield and not much dex/fighting skill or something 10:58:24 I think I was modeling +9 weapons, testing with potion of might as +might versus +7 slaying (or something lke that) 10:58:36 but I could be misremembering 10:58:52 (or was it +10 slaying?) 10:59:33 anyway the str/dex separation is just one recent thing; if we go back a little longer, there were buffs like ?brandweapon and ?enchantweapon changes 10:59:49 (it is much more likely to end up with a +9 weapon with a strong brand) 10:59:54 yeah 10:59:55 definitely 11:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:07 though vamp and elec nerfs did offset the ?brandweapon buff to some extent 11:00:08 almost every game instead of a minority of games, in my experience 11:00:24 I wonder if lowering the ench cap on weapons would be a good idea 11:00:27 to +7 or something 11:00:32 +7 seems like a-- yeah 11:00:46 (and maybe also make ?enchantweapon a bit less common) 11:00:53 on the other hand, that hurts big weapons less than short blades 11:01:07 meeting; biab 11:01:58 that isn't too significant I think except in the case of quickblades - 0.5 vs 0.6 or 0.7 delay isn't a huge factor 11:02:40 and if we ever thought qblades were too weak we could just give them one extra base damage or something, they are a rare weapon that are allowed to be good 11:06:26 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:36 What was the elec brand nerf 11:08:48 I remember vamp's nerf was reducing the odds of it working on a given hit 11:09:27 <|amethyst> %git 7bedf078 11:09:27 07elliptic02 * 0.15-a0-132-g7bedf07: Reduce electrocution brand damage slightly. 10(2 years, 2 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7bedf0784288 11:09:38 <|amethyst> nothing majro there 11:09:43 <|amethyst> s/ro/or/ 11:09:46 oh, that's why 11:09:48 basically nothing 11:18:00 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:18:33 -!- minmay has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:18:58 elliptic: I wasn't thinking of delay so much as damage 11:19:19 the proportion of the damage of a great mace that's dealt by slaying is smaller than the proportion of damage dealt by a raprier 11:19:19 -!- Demise_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:19:21 *rapier 11:19:51 -!- minqmay has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:20:17 Lasty_: only if the great mace is a much better weapon than the rapier 11:21:24 people who use short blades tend to already have ways of offsetting things and making the short blade do more comparable damage if they are using it as their main attack 11:22:01 e.g. elec brand, stabbing, berserk 11:22:05 I'd argue that great mace is definitely a better weapon than rapier, but yeah, short blades definitely have ways to increasing their damage output 11:22:20 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:54 elliptic: but still, all of those ways except stabbing apply to great maces as well and are more affected by slaying in the rapier case. Stabbing of course is different. 11:22:54 I mean, yeah, rapier is a pretty bad weapon later on usually (you want a qblade) 11:23:14 Lasty_: elec helps rapier damage more and isn't "more affected by slaying", so not sure what you mean 11:23:24 true 11:23:25 berserk also helps rapier damage more and isn't "more affected by slaying" 11:23:36 I'm not sure I'm really arguing for anything in particular here, I just think it's worth considering the relative effects of a max slaying change to different weapons 11:23:40 sure 11:24:11 I wouldn't mind seeing the higher-tier short blades (rapier and qblade) buffed a bit as compensation 11:24:33 buffing rapier might be a good idea anyway to make the jump up to qblade somewhat smaller 11:24:39 (and rapier isn't super-common early) 11:24:49 in the berserk/elec cases, what I meant by more affected by slaying is that the slaying bonuses on the respective weapons are contributing a larger proportion for the rapier than the great mace in those cases. 11:25:12 A while ago I was advocating an 8 damage rapier 11:25:15 I think it's a good idea 11:25:16 ??rapier 11:25:17 rapier[1/1]: (short blades; +4 acc / 7 dam / 1.2 base delay / 0.5 min delay). A slender, sharply pointed sword, with an uncommonly elegant design. Doesn't chop hydra heads. 11:25:19 +1 11:25:30 (that is what I had in mind :)) 11:25:34 haha, excellent 11:25:47 (can leave acc and delay as they are I think) 11:25:59 if rapiers were a bit more rare, I could even see a 9-damage one 11:26:04 agreed 11:26:17 ??demon whip 11:26:17 demon whip[1/2]: (maces & flails; +1 acc / 11 dam / 1.1 base delay / 0.5 min delay). A terrible weapon, woven in the depths of the inferno. Can be {bless}ed into a {sacred scourge}. 11:27:13 at 9 damage I think the gap between short sword and rapier would be a bit large 11:27:36 and I think it is better to have a somewhat common option that is better than a short sword 11:27:45 -!- duckroller has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:27:53 ??quick blade 11:27:54 quick blade[1/2]: (short blades; +6 acc / 5 dam / 0.7 base delay / 0.3 min delay). Ultra-fast short blade. Doesn't chop hydra heads. 0.2 min delay with haste/finesse. Quick blades cannot have the speed brand. 11:28:30 not sure about buffing those to 6 dam, but it might be reasonable if we think they are underpowered after reducing max enchantment 11:28:49 (I don't think they are underpowered at the moment) 11:29:34 6 base damage would help against high AC enemies 11:29:36 I think they're just slightly underpowered, but not enough to mandate change 11:30:06 Slightly related but there's a strange lack of overlap between SInv and rElec in a 3-rune game 11:30:41 (note: I think qblades should be somewhat worse than demon weapons from a pure damage standpoint, since short blades have a bunch of other advantages) 11:30:56 agreed 11:31:18 they seem definitely worse from a pure damage standpoint right now, but with stabbing they can draw about equal 11:31:47 or perhaps even ahead 11:32:34 even with a bit of slaying (and/or might/berserk) or a strong brand they can be ahead 11:32:44 true 11:33:15 in my experience, even berserk isn't always enough to get them over the hump (sometimes vs OoFs, for example) 11:33:40 oofs are pretty rough to melee with dweapons too 11:33:41 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:45 I lost a recent quickblade of pain wielder in Zot:5 after a terrible series of events that started with being unable to damage an OoF even using !might 11:33:51 and +12 total slaying IIRC 11:34:04 "unable to damage" sounds factually incorrect 11:34:19 I'll believe you got unlucky though :P 11:34:26 I may well have just been very unlucky 11:34:35 since I'm pretty sure I've done okay in that scenario in the past 11:34:38 yes 11:35:11 I've meleed plenty of oofs with short blades over the years, though you'd rather avoid it if possible (this is also true with many dweapon users though) 11:35:36 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:56 I've found that a +9 demon weapon and might usually does an acceptable job, if a little slower than you'd like 11:36:17 at least for demon blades 11:36:27 broad axes are in the same boat 11:36:30 pretty sure +21 qblade with might does more damage than +9 dblade with might 11:37:10 c l u s t e r i n g i l l u s i o n 11:37:34 yes that is what I meant by I'll believe you got unlucky though :P 11:38:44 to be fair weapon skill, fighting skill, strength also contribute and it is possible that whatever character you had qblade of pain on didn't have as much of those 11:39:01 elliptic: yeah, when you get huge slaying w/ a QB, it's absolutely sick 11:39:17 yeah, definitely low str 11:39:23 I think the Fighting skill was around 15 11:39:33 !lg lasty zot:5 -log 11:39:34 10. Lasty, XL24 DrEn, T:76769: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lasty/morgue-Lasty-20160530-013557.txt 11:39:47 11 Str, 19.4 Fighting 11:39:52 13.0 Short Blades 11:40:00 that doesn't look like 12 slaying fyi 11:40:06 it looks like 2 11:40:36 close enough 11:41:29 (also it looks like the sort of character who shouldn't be meleeing oofs - I'm more interested in whether short blades KoBe or something like that can handle them) 11:41:50 -!- Cerpin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:57 well, 9 slaying on the weapon + 2 from EQ 11:42:00 so net 11 11:42:12 oh, that's what you meant by +12 total slaying 11:42:13 KoBe can handle them w/ bros 11:42:30 i think this character's zot problems would have been solved by kiku zombie spam 11:42:37 minmay: I thought so too 11:42:42 That was my Plan A 11:42:45 Didn't seem to work 11:42:46 kiku zombies aren't amazing at killing oofs 11:42:53 they are good at protecting you while you teleninja 11:42:55 Simulacra are, but I didn't have that 11:43:09 yes, I didn't mean "try to kill orbs of fire" 11:43:16 elliptic: yeah, I almost certainly should have been using them more during the ninja attempt 11:43:29 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:29 I made several mistakes and also got phenomenally unlucky 11:43:36 though I don't know if you had found recall spell, you don't have it memorized 11:43:51 I don't remember 11:44:04 (with 6 scrolls of blinking teleninja would have been easy regardless) 11:44:11 elliptic: I got the orb no problem 11:44:18 getting out is where things got stupid 11:44:24 yeah, that is the more dangerous part 11:44:34 partly because during one of the bad teleports I got teleportitis 11:44:37 if you get unlucky with multiple teleports then bad things can happen 11:44:37 and it kept dragging me back in 11:45:20 don't mention you had teleportitis outside this channel please, i don't want to hear more people complaining about it 11:45:41 ha 11:45:57 I'm not complaining about it, but it definitely was one factor that contributed to my death 11:46:37 no I mean I don't want people saying "see it's dangerous, lasty died to it" 11:46:52 ah, heh 11:47:03 Lasty has died to tons of not-dangerous things 11:47:13 !lg lasty ckiller=worm 11:47:14 2. Lasty the Sneak (L2 FeAE), slain by a worm on D:1 (infiniplex_forest_clump_diagonal) on 2015-11-15 19:54:55, with 27 points after 1513 turns and 0:06:30. 11:48:02 I think that was the result of a bad teleport 11:48:10 !lg lasty ckiller=worm -log 11:48:11 2. Lasty, XL2 FeAE, T:1513: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgue-Lasty-20151115-195455.txt 11:48:28 hrm, maybe not. I don't reaclly. 11:48:38 recall. 11:48:38 Maybe a miskey. I do that plenty. 11:50:53 I read "whiskey" at first 11:50:57 which would be an equally good explanation 11:54:45 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:24 -!- nezrel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:22 -!- PoisonMushroom has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:56:38 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:02 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:49 title: Yankees obtained plate scroll algorithm 12:01:49 PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:01:54 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:01:56 !seen chequers 12:01:56 I last saw chequers at Mon Jun 6 09:49:01 2016 UTC (6h 12m 55s ago) saying 'like 1/3 chance of that' on ##crawl-dev. 12:02:17 !tell chequers can you rephrase your last message? I don't get it 12:02:18 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let chequers know. 12:08:26 -!- Cerpin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:13:12 -!- vermi is now known as vermifax 12:13:41 !tell chequers wrt ancestor identity and getting a different 'memory' based on gender choice? 12:13:41 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let chequers know. 12:13:45 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]] 12:15:53 -!- Cerpin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: Reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, BYE] 12:17:23 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:22 -!- eliot is now known as eliotn 12:21:04 -!- Cerpin_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:21:19 -!- Cerpin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:40 -!- debo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:14 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:33:18 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:44 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:38:27 -!- Naruni has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:39 -!- LexAckson__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:40:06 Autotravel bugged, travelling via Hell 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10480 by Le_Nerd 12:41:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:05 morning 12:45:31 chukamok (L11 OgHu) (Lair:1) 12:46:33 -!- Telnaior has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47:50 -!- Dix has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:59 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20167 i kind of like the ideas in there, multiple wands is a frustrating thing 12:51:34 My position about inventory is this: instead of going all-inclusive, items dropped should disappear. Perhaps not right away, but after a while. 12:53:27 dpeg, if identification of items on the floor makes it into the game, i can see that being exploited 12:54:13 What do you mean by identification of items on the floor? 12:54:22 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:54:32 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10466 12:54:40 players have been asking for it 12:55:07 dpeg: that sounds bad for multiple reasons if I understand it correctly 12:55:16 Naruni: that one is fine 12:55:35 elliptic: it has drawbacks, sure. But it also does some things. 12:55:42 dpeg: the main thing being that it means that you are constantly at full inventory and whenever you find a new object you want to carry, the decision of which item to drop is magnified 12:55:55 (And probably Crawl is not the right game for this mechanic.) 12:56:23 -!- bitches has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:28 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:35 elliptic: you know that I am a proponent of decisions. I agree that Crawl currently throws too much crap at the player for this to be meaningful, it'd be annoying instead. 12:56:36 which means a constant stream of strategic decisions 12:57:04 -!- zxc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:17 dpeg: I like decisions, but I think that ideally most decisions should be tactical in nature - what do I do to handle these monsters in the best way 12:57:30 ultra hard brain fuck mode crawl: items that come into your sight disappear after 350 turns 12:57:31 According to Snack: "Shock is broken, trying to double zap via wall says "You cannot see that place."" 12:57:31 Lasty_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:57:38 and strategic decisions (which skills should I raise, which items should I carry) should be relatively minor 12:57:47 I asked him to put in a mantis report, but I thought I'd mention it in case anyone knows about it 12:57:51 elliptic: I see, but I also think that Crawl's too big for just tactical decisions. This ain't Brogue. 12:58:41 I'm not saying that all decisions should be tactical - we already have perfectly good strategic decisions without making every single item you find force you to make one 12:59:07 dpeg, that would also put a rather big hurting on casters, especially sif worshippers if their books keep disappearing before they get higher level spells castable 12:59:23 in a simpler game with far fewer items (and smaller inventory) I can see this sort of thing working 12:59:58 Sil sort of has what you suggest because of the nonpersistent levels, for instance 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:03 true 13:00:55 elliptic: perhaps there's a niche for this in Crawl for some subclass of items? Anyway, I have to think of this mechanic every single time someone brings up another idea for how to circumvent the inventory limit, it's nothing serious. 13:01:22 dpeg: "how to circumvent the inventory limit"? 13:03:17 (not sure what idea you are talking about exactly) 13:03:17 elliptic: there's a constant stream of suggestions how to combine items etc. (wands, decks, books) 13:03:55 ah, those 13:04:05 dpeg, is that against crawl's philosiphy or should options be considered? 13:04:10 -!- Cerpin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:05:33 -!- Dracunos7 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:01 Lasty_, someone did put a mantis report for zap targetting 13:06:10 Naruni: yeah, excellent 13:06:11 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.19-a0-518-g626ee58 (34) 13:06:34 Naruni: it's not against the philosophy. I do think that being able to carry more is not necessarily better, and I am very confident that limitless inventory (you can carry everything) would make for horrible gameplay. 13:06:47 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:01 dpeg, to me, i see it as a quasi-limitless inventory. players can carry as many quantities of things as they want, but a limited number of types of things 13:08:09 -!- Cerpin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:13 if quasi-limitless is even a word there 13:08:44 a player being able to carry 900 bolts but cant find room in his pack for another wand is kind of frustrating 13:09:47 remembering it is a video game, some things just are the way they are for gameplay i suppose 13:10:06 Naruni: be aware of playerthink :) 13:11:15 (the wand argument reeks of realism) 13:13:16 is realism a goal? im not following 13:14:06 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:14:34 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:15:18 I don't actually think letting wands of the same type stack would be a major change in terms of inventory size - it would save a few slots sometimes, that's it 13:15:37 but it adds complications with regards to things like recharging or ID status 13:15:38 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:24 elliptic, i like that idea in particular, but the guy who said they should be treated as consumables like pots or scrolls is bad bad bad IMO 13:16:42 which idea in particular? 13:16:47 I haven't yet seen any player feedback on the new SoS/BoB 13:16:53 I'm surprised 13:17:06 (speaking of stacking) 13:17:16 Picking up wands of a type you already possess adds their charges instead of adding them to your inventory. 13:17:29 oh youre talking about stacking them 13:17:49 well as I said there are questions about recharging and ID status 13:18:10 hmm im not sure if that's possible. 13:18:13 !source item_def 13:18:14 1/2. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/externs.h#l591 13:18:36 Lasty_: SoS, BoB? 13:18:40 I don't really think it is possible to discuss wand stacking without deciding what to do about those things 13:18:44 dpeg: sack of spiders, box of beasts 13:18:47 ah 13:18:50 -!- removeelyvilon_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:18:54 mainly recharging 13:19:06 (could just not let wands stack until they are fully IDed) 13:19:46 How attached are we to wands of Healing, Hasting and Teleportation? 13:19:55 -!- debo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:19:56 'The wands now know you know everything they know. The wands merge to form one!' 13:20:10 They're very strong, but from a design p.o.v. I am not sure they'd be accepted if someone invented them just now. 13:20:15 dpeg: well I hardly use other wands, and removing them would be a huge huge balance changes 13:20:19 dpeg: I'm still in favor of removing as many of the three as we can 13:20:25 haha <3 13:20:39 And if DD cries about it, remove them too! 13:20:43 13:20:47 May I introduce you to the Fermions and Bosons of Crawl! 13:20:47 dpeg: I'd rather make other wands more usable than remove the wands that are currently usable 13:21:07 -!- removeelyvilon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:31 elliptic: the /digging -> /destruction idea we discussed the other day is on my list 13:21:51 (that said, I think removing /hasting might be a good idea if coupled with removing haste spell) 13:21:57 Lasty_: cool 13:21:59 elliptic: so potions only 13:22:00 ?> 13:22:07 elliptic: well, as you certainly know, I'm arguing whether it makes sense to have wands for stuff that we have perfect other items for. If we place more !HW and remove /Heal, there should be a sweet spot, shouldn't it? 13:22:21 elliptic: I still like the idea of having a haste ability on all chars with a long XP cooldown. 13:22:22 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:27 elliptic: oh, I'll take Haste spell removal any day. 13:22:30 -!- DubDrop has quit [Quit: please don't look for me] 13:23:04 Lasty_: yeah, I sort of like the "limited haste ability on all chars" idea 13:23:09 !! 13:23:24 That's the first time I've heard anyone potentially on board with it :D 13:23:25 Lasty_: why not give them a starting Haste potion instead? (But this is sidetracking, leading to nothing happens. Better to actually remove something instead.) 13:23:36 I think I said something positive about it the last time I heard it :P 13:23:47 elliptic: oops, must have misremembered 13:23:49 dpeg, i'd rather start with a heal wounds potion 13:23:54 I'm not sure exactly how it should be implemented though 13:23:55 To show you my sincere and honest motivations: if /haste, /healing etc. go, I am of course willing to wave goodbye to Deep Gimli. 13:23:58 if we are getting free stuff :) 13:24:10 dpeg: haste potion means 1) starting w/ haste ID'd, and 2) you can use them up front if you want a big early-game boost 13:24:19 dpeg: I dont' want to trivialize the early game 13:24:20 -!- dalwyn_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:24:25 Lasty_: alright, good points 13:24:46 If anything I want to make the late game more like the early game <.< >.> 13:24:52 +1 +1 +1 13:25:51 * dpeg realises this here is like a perverted marketplace: "Okay, I'll let you remove X, but only if I can remove Y." Good times! 13:27:18 IMO exploiting speed is a game killer. years ago i played eve online. some asshole came up with a ship build that was a total speed exploit. the game became nonsense 13:27:51 not saying that's happening here, but players tend to grasp tightly onto advantages of rules instead of thinking their way through 13:27:56 dpeg: even if /healwounds goes I would rather try to keep DD around in some form - the wand recharging ability could be replaced by an ability to healwounds at some cost (draining and/or a chance of losing an MP) 13:28:23 that would probably be better overall design anyway 13:28:35 since it saves a step in the execution 13:28:39 I know not everyone likes DD, but I think it is meaningfully distinct from other species and does have some design advantages (not having to press 5 as much) 13:29:24 dpeg: that said, I meant what I said earlier about hardly using other wands - they are mostly very bad after early game 13:30:16 upgradeable wands? 13:30:32 !learn edit sack_of_spiders s/Contains 5-15 charges and has a 1\/5 chance of failure when evoked/ Has a 4 in (10+Evo) chance of self-destructing when used, and a 5 in (10+Evo) chance of having no effect/ 13:30:32 Use: !learn edit sack_of_spiders[NUM] s/// 13:30:38 !learn edit sack_of_spiders[1 s/Contains 5-15 charges and has a 1\/5 chance of failure when evoked/ Has a 4 in (10+Evo) chance of self-destructing when used, and a 5 in (10+Evo) chance of having no effect/ 13:30:38 sack of spiders[1/2]: When evoked, generates friendly spiders and webs. Has a 4 in (10+Evo) chance of self-destructing when used, and a 5 in (10+Evo) chance of having no effect. The kinds of spiders you get vary with evocations; at really high evocations you get the occasional ghost moth. 13:30:40 dpeg: so I'm not sure why we are removing the good wands other than some aesthetic qualms about them duplicating scrolls/potions 13:31:17 elliptic: the reason I want to remove them is that I think they give way too much access to resources that are better when limited 13:31:37 -!- destrovel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:37 elliptic: well, what *are* wands good for? We have digging, which is problematic in its own right. And hexes/damage wands, which are supposed to be finite consumable replacements for spells. Would the game become richer or worse if they're gone (serious question)? 13:31:52 Lasty_: for haste I agree with you there, but most games have plenty of heal wounds or teleport anyway 13:31:53 I wouldn't mind the wands as much if we didn't have ways to recharge them, but as it is, finding one of these wands multiplies your access to the resource it gives by a massive number 13:31:53 -!- Dracunos72 is now known as Dracunos-m 13:32:14 dpeg: excellent question 13:32:44 I am afraid a proper answer would need some concept for Evocations which at least I haven't. 13:32:47 dpeg: I think the hexes/damage wands play reasonably interestingly early on; I just think there should be multiple tiers of wand 13:32:49 Lasty_, yep, if you're carrying wand of xxx and you find a scroll of recharging, that's like finding a stack of xxx 13:33:00 Lasty_: recharging scrolls are too common, yes 13:33:08 * dpeg whispers something about ornate and legendary wands :) 13:33:29 elliptic: could those multiple tiers be tied to skill? 13:33:53 dpeg: by multiple tiers I mean that there should be rare wands that are stronger than common wands 13:33:56 !learn add box_of_beasts[1 When evoked, generates a mutant beast. Chance of self-destructing when evoked is 5 in (10 + Evo). 13:33:56 nothing more than that 13:33:57 box of beasts[1/3]: When evoked, generates a mutant beast. Chance of self-destructing when evoked is 5 in (10 + Evo). 13:34:05 elliptic: ah, fine 13:34:07 currently this exists: wand of hasting and heal wounds 13:34:32 elliptic: could some of the new evokables count? 13:34:43 there was some discussion the other day about adding a new rare wand or two, (wand of firestorm, wand of clouds, whatever) 13:34:45 I realise they're not wands, and they can 13:34:54 t be recharged, but you will get what I mean. 13:35:04 !learn set box_of_beasts[1 When evoked, either self-destructs or generates a mutant beast. Chance of self-destructing when evoked is 5 in (10 + Evo). 13:35:04 box of beasts[1/3]: When evoked, either self-destructs or generates a mutant beast. Chance of self-destructing when evoked is 5 in (10 + Evo). 13:35:15 -!- Cerpin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:29 I'd like to increase the variety of our high-tier, rare wands by adding such new wands to the ranks 13:35:35 agreed 13:35:37 rather than reducing variety by removing the ones we have 13:35:50 but I also want to remove some of the ones we have. :) 13:35:57 polymorph other i'd like to see get a huge boost 13:36:01 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:17 sometimes i run into hydras before i've got the resources available to me to beat it 13:36:28 like, wand of heal wounds becomes more interesting if it is a rarer find - in games where you find it and decide to use a couple recharging scrolls on it, you can spend !healwounds more recklessly 13:36:50 but in other games you are stuck recharging wand of clouds and using that instead 13:36:57 -!- removeelyvilon_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:36:57 I'd mind /HW and /Haste less if we removed ?recharging 13:37:06 but then they might as well be potions 13:37:20 Lasty_: I think ?recharging as an uncommon item makes wands more interesting 13:37:37 yes, if we keep wands, we should keep recharging, imo 13:37:38 Maybe if it were as rare as brand weapon -- something you really want to think twice before using 13:37:41 it just shouldn't be the case that you find 6-10 every game 13:37:48 Lasty_: yeah, exactly 13:38:15 unfortunately, that would make it even more clear what to spend it on... right now, I do recharge a wand of acid sometimes. 13:38:24 true 13:39:38 we have a bunch of item classes that are "just there", would need an iron broom :) It is good that random decks are no more. 13:40:54 -!- debo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:54 'Your iron broom sweeps the deck. The deck resists! It won't go away!' 13:43:58 %git a6dc205 13:43:58 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-246-ga6dc205: Don't crash when a ranged attacker dies (elliptic) 10(13 days ago, 2 files, 9+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a6dc20555d9a 13:45:22 I don't like that the same item used for making rods better is also used for getting HW/haste charges 13:45:46 since it means I never make my rods better if I have a wand of hw/haste 13:46:15 fr: remove wand identification, but make identify scrolls recharge rods 13:46:26 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:48 -!- Dracunos-m has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:03:56 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:07:00 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:39 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 14:09:16 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:52 !seen Arrhythmia 14:09:52 I last saw arrhythmia at Fri Oct 23 01:48:13 2015 UTC (32w 3d 16h 21m 39s ago) saying '!messages' on ##crawl. 14:11:08 -!- mopl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:13:18 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:14:19 -!- lukano has quit [Quit: replacing NIC] 14:16:02 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 14:18:16 rip 14:19:03 this feels like it will be the nerf version 14:22:45 -!- halv has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:25:40 -!- Blade- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:30 We've been building up a lot of nerf debt 14:35:24 -!- destroythecore has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:57 this is revenge for the winrate going up after last version's nerfs 14:36:00 isn't it 14:37:17 -!- Klaymen has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:40 More like balance for winrates going up constantly 14:37:59 :shrug: some things are too strong right now, and need to be brought into line. 14:38:05 Other things are too weak. 14:38:22 Right now we probably have more OP stuff that needs balance than UP stuff 14:38:32 -!- sanka has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:38:34 And Evo is dead center in the list of things that need nerfs 14:39:37 not sure I agree 14:40:05 Yeah? 14:40:07 evo isn't being raised to 15 in a particularly huge proportion of games 14:40:11 of wins I mean 14:40:23 right, but that's because you get so much out of the first ~10 levels 14:40:29 you don't really need 15 to get good things from it 14:40:29 not really IMO 14:40:47 <|amethyst> Evocations was considered underpowered in 0.12, right? 14:40:50 -!- devs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:40:58 <|amethyst> wasn't that why all the evokers were changed? 14:42:46 well, the old elemental evokers were either useless or overpowered (though I think we nerfed stone of earth elementals before it was changed) 14:44:04 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:44:22 iirc buffing them was more about making the items more interesting than in buffing evocations skill 14:45:38 I'd say they definitely got more interesting 14:45:46 yes 14:45:49 they had a low bar for that :P 14:46:18 elliptic: from your perspective, how strong is Evo right now? What sorts of things prompt to you train/avoid training it? How much do you train it? 14:48:36 %git :/quirk 14:48:37 07wheals02 * 0.19-a0-515-g8e8fbab: Fix some more autotargetting quirks (#10478). 10(24 hours ago, 2 files, 5+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e8fbab78634 14:48:50 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:48:50 this caused #10479, looking into a fix 14:49:29 -!- eliotn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:50:46 Lasty: well, at the moment I usually just leave it at 0, occasionally raising it a little bit (like 4-6) for wand power if a char finds a bunch of wands and is really in need of help, or higher for +Inv (which is quite rare now) or CBOE 14:50:57 -!- fazisi_ has quit [Quit: Your lil lungs is too small to hotbox with god.] 14:51:26 but that's because I stopped using elemental evokers (or sack of spiders etc) at some point because of how much I dislike allies 14:52:06 when I used those I raised evo to 10 or so fairly often, but it didn't feel overpowered (well aside from phial, but that has been nerfed I think) 14:52:10 I usually train evo from the orcish mines 14:52:33 since the exp gain there is generally low enough that putting it into my main skills wouldn't mean much anyways 14:53:59 oh, also I train evo for MP on DD sometimes :P 14:54:51 elliptic: IMO the elemental evokers aren't as big offenders as BoB/SoS 14:55:17 elliptic: but as much as you might dislike allies, it's not fair to leave that out of the Evo equation, since that's the OP part of Evo :) 14:55:45 Well, that and evokable invis 14:56:15 Lasty_: well, I did use the elemental evokers quite a bit when they were added and they still didn't feel OP aside from phial being totally ridiculous when first added 14:56:34 I'll believe you that BoB and SoS are currently stronger 14:56:47 those two items seem to change a bunch every version and I haven't kept up with them 14:57:02 but there's a difference between "nerf two items" and "nerf Evocations" 14:57:28 elliptic: well, to be fair, we already nerfed two other Evo items 14:57:36 my objection was to And Evo is dead center in the list of things that need nerfs 14:57:46 I was thinking more in terms of "nerfs relative to 0.18" 14:57:49 ah 14:57:55 We've already done a lot of the needed nerfs 14:57:58 IMO 14:58:19 taking the summons off fan and lamp helps a lot 14:58:20 what do you think needs nerfing then 14:58:27 and then BoB/SoS 14:58:32 ??sack_of_spiders[2 14:58:32 sack of spiders[2/2]: Probably the best item in the game. 14:58:40 hopefully that's not true anymore 14:58:42 Lightli: melee and MP stacking 14:58:54 Lasty_: lamp never seemed very good to me honestly 14:59:07 I mainly used fan and phial 14:59:07 lamp's ridiculously unwieldy with targetting, yeah 14:59:18 elliptic: yeah, Phial > Fan > Lamp > Stone IMO 14:59:21 and you can't rely on it hitting anything outside of point blank melee range 14:59:23 rip stone 14:59:32 Lasty_: yeah 14:59:37 LCS-in-a-bottle-plus-summons is just so good 14:59:52 the damage was reduced at some point, right? 14:59:54 yeah 14:59:59 I'm not sure what it's at now 15:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:04 but I'm glad it got nerfed 15:00:45 well, pre-nerf the formula was this 15:00:54 player_adjust_evoc_power(25 + you.skill(SK_EVOCATIONS, 6)); 15:01:06 and post-nerf the formula is this 15:01:07 player_adjust_evoc_power(10 + you.skill(SK_EVOCATIONS, 4)); 15:01:15 very significant drop 15:01:24 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:26 -!- regret-index has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:26 good 15:01:42 <|amethyst> oh, I thought we were talking about lamp 15:01:44 rip evo 15:01:46 you said something about removing the staff of energy and cboe 15:01:52 Lightli: speculative 15:02:02 %git a6dc20555d9a48 15:02:02 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.19-a0-246-ga6dc205: Don't crash when a ranged attacker dies (elliptic) 10(13 days ago, 2 files, 9+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a6dc20555d9a 15:02:10 What I said is that I hoped that the MP regen amulet would replace them 15:02:12 does anyone understand how this would break sniper's AUTOMATIC_HIT? 15:02:19 I don't know if that will happen 15:03:00 03wheals02 07* 0.19-a0-519-gb6a5606: Un-break targetting of walls (#10479). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b6a5606436a5 15:03:06 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 15:03:52 Lasty_: fwiw I am all in favor of removing staff of energy channeling (it is unpleasant to use and not very interesting) but I think cboe is interesting (if maybe too powerful - but it is also one of the main payoffs for high evo, so being powerful might be okay) 15:04:08 elliptic: it's kinda spoilery tho 15:04:11 cboe is risky with clarity beingreally rare 15:04:14 Lasty_: but I don't think that MPRegen items really fill the same role exactly 15:04:18 Lightli: !curing exists 15:04:33 Lightli: good -- there should be some real risks! 15:04:37 Lightli: fake risks are boring 15:04:52 admittedly, !curing solves the problem a little too well 15:04:57 the risk with cboe is it draining all your MP at a bad time 15:04:58 clearly need to take any spare ideas from the sif channeling changes and throw them onto the staff of energy channeling 15:04:59 not the confusion 15:05:21 and yeah I was asking since gammafunk had plans to change sif channeling so it wouldn't be spammable anymore 15:05:28 Lasty_: I agree that how cboe works is a bit spoily - not sure if there is a good fix to that 15:06:04 those + removing cboe and energy staff would kill all the remotely common channel sources 15:06:19 that said, it at least doesn't have any magic cutoff points - it is just more likely to fail when you start with less MP 15:07:08 (this is to prevent you from just using it again after it drains all your MP) 15:07:11 !tell removeelyvilon_ sometimes there just isn't anybody around on IRc... just got to have patience 15:07:12 wheals: OK, I'll let removeelyvilon_ know. 15:07:18 Lightli: Yeah, I'd rather remove emergency channeling sources and have people using Staff of Power and other +MP/+MPRegen gear. I think that's a more interesting situation and more smooth gameplay 15:07:25 http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt;#l348 15:08:15 (can never rely on people reading descs, of course) 15:08:32 !tell removeelyvilon_ as regards your question, i don't know of any; merc was rather haphazardly designed and replacing it with a god-based ally was an old idea. summoning is always pretty strong and might get some nerfs, but i know of no plans 15:08:33 wheals: OK, I'll let removeelyvilon_ know. 15:08:36 i wonder how practical it would be to display a fail chance on cboe evo 15:08:54 PleasingFungus: very practical probably 15:09:02 in the V menu and on item examination, maybe 15:09:17 it's weird because it's not an ability or spell 15:09:31 or targeted effect, you know. none of the usual places to stick fail chance display 15:10:05 true, I guess you'd want it to be in the V menu instead which might be more difficult because menu code 15:10:11 yeah 15:10:17 or it might not 15:10:18 hrm 15:10:26 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 15:10:29 <|amethyst> there's also the complexity of the formula 15:10:38 |amethyst: that part isn't bad I think 15:10:39 Upi 15:10:52 You'd want to examine the ball with a variety of different levels of MP 15:10:59 and maybe repeat the process every time you gain a level of Evo 15:11:01 <|amethyst> what is the probability that random2avg(77 - N, 4) > mp% ? 15:11:19 |amethyst: at least, that was what I was thinking about when I said "very practical" 15:11:28 <|amethyst> it's easy enough to compute, but a pain to keep in sync 15:11:33 nice, i found a lair:$ teleport closet i guess 15:11:47 does anyone know the name of the ending with drakes and dragons offhand 15:11:51 What's the good thing about CBoE -- gambling for infinite mana if your Evo is high? 15:11:59 !source dat/des/branches/lair.des 15:11:59 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des 15:12:13 MarvinPA: erik_lair_dragon? 15:12:24 Lasty_: the good thing is that it provides incentives for players to find themselves with 0 MP suddenly and have to deal with that 15:12:26 oh er nm 15:12:31 <|amethyst> guppyfry_lair_end_dragon? 15:12:43 that looks like it 15:13:24 fedhas? 15:13:24 ah, the teleport closet in the north center? 15:13:25 poor tree-embedded plant 15:13:34 oh, that too 15:13:49 it's right by the entrance, i'm on cue and bad at matching my location to the vault file 15:13:57 it's a neat mechanic since you might want to use it at medium mp, but there's still risk there (and you might be fine without using it if you're at moderate mp!), and you definitely want to use it at low mp, but there's huge risk there. 15:14:00 seems like another one on the west wall near the top 15:14:02 if that makes any sense. 15:14:06 there's two seperate closets 15:14:21 should just fill both with trees 15:14:22 the - on line 2817 15:14:33 agreed 15:14:41 <|amethyst> and another 15:14:45 <|amethyst> the 3 on the fourth line 15:14:51 argh 15:14:53 <|amethyst> err, the fourth 3 15:14:55 er, 2815 15:14:55 To me it just feels like a minigame where if you know the rules you get dramatically more mana at the cost of every now and then needing to burn a blink scroll or !magic, and if you don't know the rules you might well die. 15:15:03 how long has this been this bad 15:15:27 Lasty_: what do you mean by "know the rules"? regret-index already pointed out that the rules are in the item description 15:15:42 regret-index: forever wouldn't surprise me. it must be vanishingly rare to land in one of these, and some of them are not even guaranteed to generate 15:16:12 pleh. 15:16:37 "However, it may fail and drain all of those energies completely, or cause other negative mental effects. When used with low reserves of magic it becomes increasingly likely to deplete those reserves." -- what other negative mental effects? How much more likely? When it is a smart bet to use and when is it a bad bet? 15:16:54 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:57 Lasty_: in practice it tends to get used with a a staff of energy so that, if you do play that minigame and lose, you can spend a few turns using |energy and then try again 15:16:59 But the clarity of the game isn't really my point, it's that the item creates a minigame and the reward is unlimited mana 15:17:03 Lasty_: if you are just talking about confusion that's one thing 15:17:06 Lasty_: no it isn't 15:17:13 unless you don't understand what "unlimited" means 15:17:16 the minigame is trading risk for mp 15:17:23 <|amethyst> Mana is inherently unlimited 15:17:27 <|amethyst> unless you're with pakellas 15:17:29 lol 15:17:37 <|amethyst> it's a matter of rate 15:17:37 or unless you're a dd wearing guardian spirit 15:17:50 I will agree that CBOE confusion + lichform/mummy confusion is spoily and bad 15:17:59 ? 15:18:01 I think depending on how we change |energy the cboe could end up getting even less use 15:18:03 I have to run off, but I'd be interested to keep discussing this another time. 15:18:07 but aside from that I don't see how CBOE is significantly more spoily than anything else in crawl 15:19:08 you could make the exact same arguments about, for example, melee combat 15:19:28 I don't think there's necessarilly a fundamental problem with the item concept, but realistically not a lot of people are using these days with changes to the MP cap and the use of MP+ artes 15:19:44 i hear removing the mp softcap wasn't even gonna do anything 15:19:53 just cosmetic really 15:19:57 yeah, not many fights that 80 MP of fire storms won't solve 15:19:58 basically harmless 15:20:07 I wouldn't call "less cboe usage" a critical issue 15:20:09 wrt mp cap 15:20:12 PleasingFungus: that's why we added lots of MP+9 items to the game at the same time 15:20:18 :) 15:20:34 evo nerfs also hurting cboe, ofc 15:20:39 lower apts + fewer other good reasons to invest in evo 15:20:47 the lower apts do hurt yes 15:21:11 Well I really disagree about "evo nerfs" hurting cboe 15:21:15 that seems outright silly to me 15:21:16 conjurer-y characters were already less interested in a bunch of the other things that evo items provide 15:21:30 gammafunk: well the apt change clearly does, no? 15:21:41 in the sense that it hurts everything that uses evo skill 15:22:15 elliptic: not in my mind, who all did we ever see using CBOE? It was people almost always Veh worshipers in extended who set out to use the thing since it game them access to a lot more MP 15:22:31 gammafunk: uh, no, I usually got CBOE before extended in my CBOE games 15:22:38 i mean it definitely means it takes them more xp to get good use out of it 15:23:02 since 15-20 evo is plenty to make it very useful for V:5, zot, or other lategame places 15:23:12 elliptic: I very rarely saw people investing for it for a 3-rune game, but maybe player thinking has changed since I started playing crawl 15:23:22 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:47 -!- Bcadren_ is now known as Bcadren 15:24:20 gammafunk: maybe that's more a matter of high-level conjurers being ridiculously overpowered and having an easy time getting 15 runes if they want once they survive to late game :P 15:24:30 yeah 15:24:33 It might be cool if the item were more relevant for 3-rune somehow, but I'm not sure; I do think the item concept is kind of cool 15:24:40 gammafunk: it is very relevant 15:24:49 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:11 elliptic: I guess you would take the evocations necessary to use it on your Veh conjurers? But I wouldn't, and I don't personally see people doing this 15:25:26 15 evo for some fairly risky channel vs |energy 15:25:29 gammafunk: I don't know what I can tell you other than since 15-20 evo is plenty to make it very useful for V:5, zot, or other lategame places 15:26:08 elliptic: I know but 15-20 is a rather large investment; in practice I see people just using some |energy to top things off. If you're saying there will always be people who use it, I certainly can't debate that 15:26:14 anyway this was just the explanation for why evo apt nerf hurt cboe, because getting 15-20 evo takes more exp now 15:26:44 poor neglected enhancer staves 15:27:01 gammafunk: no, I'm saying that it is crazy to say that apt nerf didn't affect it 15:27:12 wouldn't 70+ MP still be possible with two MP rings 15:27:12 because it uses evo skill 15:27:25 What if one CBOE effect was that the ball can vanish? 15:27:28 Lightli: sure, but finding good randart MP rings is much rarer 15:27:31 true 15:29:01 (I like the basic gamble of the crystal ball, have used it, and would like to see it preserved. I am generally not happy with channeling but I think the ball is a bit better.) 15:30:51 I feel a lot of people get really scared off by the fails and end up just using |energy+resting in 3-rune games, but maybe the evo apt change is an important factor as elliptic say 15:30:55 s 15:30:56 I recall that happened some versions ago 15:31:10 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:44 I wasn't saying it was an important factor, just that it certainly made cboe a bit worse 15:31:55 sure 15:32:30 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:32:41 Does the item need an adjustment for being useful at lower evo? There also seems to be some agreement about confuse maybe being a bad effect, but that's something that would mostly affect those unkillable 15-rune blasters 15:32:44 could tweak the math to make failure lower at low evo skill 15:32:59 and maybe also lower mp regain 15:33:07 and also display failure chance 15:33:09 so, three things 15:33:16 I think a big part was the removal of "clarity 15:33:18 And for me personally, what happens to |energy is kind of important, since I view those items as having a strong synergy for not-sif worshipers 15:33:27 so the people who normally would just spam it are scared away because confusion 15:33:42 gammafunk: I actually agreed with the original thing you said that people might just see less use for cboe when they can have 70-80 MP without too much trouble 15:33:59 right, that's obviously still an issue 15:33:59 that seems like it is probably a stronger effect than the apt change 15:34:38 do we have two issues here, high mp in extended (new problem) and limited cboe usability in 3-rune games (old problem)? 15:35:10 PleasingFungus: I don't think the latter is a problem, though making it more useful at lower evo might be a good idea 15:35:28 could always make +MP randarts much rarer 15:35:52 PleasingFungus: also the high mp isn't necessarily in extended 15:35:58 true 15:36:09 Lightli: yeah, I already suggested to lasty halving the generation of +MP randarts 15:36:17 and I think he put it on a todo list 15:36:21 could alternately change them to be, like, +5 15:36:27 also i can do that right now probably, it's not hard 15:36:32 what about melee nerfs 15:36:35 since that's on the table 15:36:37 the what 15:36:39 -!- chewymouse has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:53 ??? 15:37:01 Lasty_ and I were tossing around the idea of lowering the enchantment cap from +9 to +7 15:37:18 hrm 15:37:29 i vaguely remember being against this, i think? was there some discussion about this a month or two ago? 15:37:32 elliptic: this is good for artefacts, too 15:37:39 PleasingFungus: I wasn't around for it if there was 15:38:04 oh, that's perhaps reasonable. Is it related to the fact that we merged pluses and made each enchant affect both to-dam and to-hit? 15:38:09 yet never adjusted those limits 15:38:26 the idea is partly that melee could use a nerf (it has been buffed in various ways over time with few nerfs) and partly as compensation for enchantment changes 15:38:28 or did we adjust how much each point increased..well I guess we wouldn't have done that for to-dam would we 15:38:40 gammafunk: both that and the thing where we made ?enchantweapon always succeed 15:38:45 right 15:38:51 we also made ew rarer 15:38:55 a couple of times, i think 15:38:56 we did decrease ?enchantweapon generation to compensate, but it is still much more common to get to +9 now 15:39:11 so now we'd make it even more common? 15:39:13 to cap out 15:39:44 PleasingFungus: to make melee a bit weaker, yes - though I think making ?enchantweapon a bit rarer as well would make sense 15:40:14 as dpeg pointed out this also makes artifacts more attractive, which is good IMO 15:40:53 PleasingFungus: to be clear, I don't have a major problem with people hitting the cap - the problem I have is with melee being buffed in various ways over time without much compensation 15:41:10 what melee buffs are worrying you? 15:41:14 (?brandweapon and str/dex changes are other buffs) 15:41:23 I sort of think that it might work if going +4 --> +5 takes 2EW etc., but I don't have a proposal and it is probably too complicated anyway 15:41:32 that was the old notion, yeah 15:41:38 the legendary fractional enchantment 15:41:57 +7 seems fine to me, less synergy with 27, of course 15:42:58 the addition of ?brandweapon rebranding made ending up with a better brand more common, and for str/dex we buffed it in two steps: first we simply doubled the effect on damage (with no compensation afaik) and then we made str increase damage by even more (when we removed str weighting) 15:43:22 just halve player melee damage 15:43:33 as compensation for the 0.16 melee bug 15:43:36 ?brandweapon was partially compensated for by nerfing vamp and elec, but I think the str/dex thing was just a straightforward buff 15:44:02 DCSS 0.19 "Gnashing of teeth" 15:44:21 Yeah I'm super excited about telling people they can't enchant as much, over here 15:44:34 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:48 anyway this +9 -> +7 thing is pretty minor, I'd also be interested in thinking about reducing the effect of str on weapon damage or something 15:45:04 elliptic: +1 for you keeping track on slow balance loss! 15:45:08 I was not following how the stat changes on weapons have gonve 15:45:50 If we reduce base damage instead, we make enchantment and Str more important. So many choices! 15:46:02 -!- eliot has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:46:41 the enchant change has the nice effect where it only changes balance for later portions of the game 15:46:46 it's a pretty subtle effect though 15:47:14 my impression was that the effect of strength weighting was not huge 15:47:20 gammafunk: it also encourages you to enchant an early/subpar weapon (this is also what I'm aiming for with the fractional enchantment). 15:47:36 i'm not sure that it's a notable buff 15:47:44 especially for the sort of weapons that high str characters would actually use 15:48:33 for example 15:49:39 %git 23033c8a9 15:49:39 07galehar02 * 0.13-a0-1405-g23033c8: Double the effect of stats on melee. 10(3 years ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/23033c8a9bdd 15:49:45 wow, three years ago 15:49:47 PleasingFungus: yeah, not as significant as ^ 15:49:49 at 20 str / 10 dex, a great mace would go from getting +25% dam to +22.5% dam 15:49:49 at least 15:50:40 er, vice versa, i guess 15:50:44 post str weighting changes 15:51:47 PleasingFungus: I have gotten the impression that raising str is a lot better than raising dex nowadays on the great majority of melee chars, but you are right that removing str weighting (which was great) didn't affect that very much for most chars 15:52:24 hrm 15:52:27 not sure i'd agree with that 15:52:33 afaik conventional wisdom is still to raise dex 15:52:35 though the effect on stuff like dwhip + shield on high strength chars is higher than this 15:52:36 in most cases 15:52:44 yeah, or great/triple swords even 15:52:49 since those were 50-50 weighted 15:52:49 PleasingFungus: we need to hold a convention to determine this 15:52:52 ! 15:53:00 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:35 hrm, i overestimated the great mace thing actually 15:53:39 forgot how str weighting worked 15:54:14 but for our hypothetical 20 str/10 dex guy using a great sword, it'd go from, uh, +19% damage to +25% 15:54:34 I can provide as evidence that qw's winrate went up a couple percent when I remembered that it was still training dex in some situations and told it to stop that and to train dodging a bit less :P 15:54:34 lmao 15:54:48 (I had already switched to str myself and been pretty happy about it) 15:55:00 i mean, historically, we've had the problem of conventional wisdom saying Never Train Str, It Is A Garbage Stat 15:55:08 so it seems like it'd be nice if we'd fixed that 15:55:26 sure, that's not intrinsically a problem 15:55:30 ("raise int if you're casting spells, raise dex otherwise" is the rule i remember) 15:55:56 I'm more concerned about melee chars getting stronger, though again I agree that this is more the fault of the 3-year-old commit I mentioned above than the recent thing 15:56:08 that just reminded me about it 15:56:45 -!- DevlanMud|Lappy has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:56 <|amethyst> IIRC the intent of that commit was to make stats matter more 15:57:03 <|amethyst> what about adjusting the base point 15:57:14 the legendary tabstorm/mps cabal has been claiming that "spellcasting is a waste of time" for a while 15:57:22 but of course one of those two is literally named tabstorm 15:57:29 PleasingFungus: the rule I use nowadays is something like "raise int if I am a pure caster, raise dex if I am a hybrid, raise str if I am mostly melee" which is not a bad place to have things 15:57:38 yeah that sounds, to me, good 15:57:44 of course doesn't preclude other changes 15:57:53 |amethyst: base point? 15:58:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: so instead of 10 stat = 1.0 multiplier, it's more like 15 stat = 1.0 multiplier 15:58:33 <|amethyst> s/it's/it becomes/ 15:58:37 |amethyst: that's possible, but that would hurt players equally at all stages of the game, whereas the buff was larger to later characters (who usually have much higher stats) 15:58:47 elliptic: interesting, you don't raise dex on melee chars for the EV? 15:59:06 My rule has been str if I need it for the ER, but otherwise dex for EV 15:59:12 gammafunk: I mean, I probably would still on Ha and such 15:59:43 but the thing is that str helps your EV too, sometimes almost as much as dex depending on your skills 16:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:08 and the damage boost isn't unimportant 16:00:08 right, that's a big part of raising str for me, but I tend to stop near ER or don't raise it if I have more str than the ER requires 16:00:30 maybe I'm raising too much dex 16:01:15 -!- zizzlebop has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01:17 I don't really have any difficulty winning heavy-armour chars regardless, so I guess it doesn't matter all that much 16:01:27 clearly time to nerf melee :) 16:01:36 obviously this would be a trog nerf too, so we already have dpeg's support 16:01:38 yes, nerf it until gammafunk has trouble winning one 16:01:40 i guess i'm us now 16:01:45 idk when that happened 16:02:26 PleasingFungus: you're 'us'? 16:02:30 gauntlet is pretty biased against melee characters 16:02:47 regret-index: I spent some time looking at that last evening, and I have some questions about the concept 16:03:05 ? 16:03:08 I definitely get and like the flavor of "twisted kill show" 16:03:27 -!- oxeimon has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:03:30 gammafunk: i joined the 'anti-melee faction' 16:03:31 But it feels a bit redundant with having zigs 16:03:36 gotta look out for blue-haired assassins now 16:03:44 gammafunk: remove zigs imo 16:04:04 PleasingFungus: I just started lumping you in with "devs who can't win crawl", but that was purely for convenience and because you splatted a bunch of chars recently 16:04:10 it makes dunks easier 16:04:16 I can't deny that there are overlaps, but there are still plenty of distinction points (most notably, zigs don't mix things like gauntlets do) 16:04:23 nooo 16:04:58 !lg . won 16:04:59 39. pleasingfungus the Phalangite (L25 MfFE of Ru), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2016-05-10 05:36:46, with 1826653 points after 56716 turns and 5:04:47. 16:05:03 i won! I won this year! 16:05:10 merfolk... 16:05:13 no zig set that'll give you a jiangshi, a blizzard demon, a juggernaut, a crystal guardian, and a doom hound all at once in los 16:05:14 8) 16:05:23 mffe!!! 16:05:28 congratulations pf 16:05:34 someday i will win again 16:05:36 maybe 16:05:38 ty wormcan. 16:05:52 regret-index: nothing stopping us from adding one though 16:05:55 regret-index: yes, there certainly are some differences, but I'm not sure how we're going to see too much variation on a given gauntlet level 16:05:56 har 16:06:24 the concept will be such that you can have different kinds of killboxes I guess? Those will end up feeling pretty samey 16:06:49 there are other ways to set up the choices, it's just that killboxes are the easiest way to do it 16:07:01 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:12 hrm, right, with some more creative thinking on the choice concept the variation could be better from portal to portal 16:07:15 I've got down notes for "choose pressure plates to make walls in an arena go down", for example 16:07:47 I noticed in the level I had, the choice I made only affected what monsters I fought, not my loot result 16:07:51 elliptic: I genuinely think it'd be pretty bad to have a "themeless" zig set, anyway 16:07:54 but I guess that's not something that need always be the case 16:08:17 -!- edsrzf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:21 could also nerf weapon apts or the like 16:08:40 regret-index: some technical issues: resting is super annoying in the gauntlet 16:08:49 the insult spam from all the demons in glass slows down resting a lot 16:08:57 regret-index: yeah, I agree - and from looking at the branch right now I don't think it looks that much like a zig anyway 16:09:00 I'm not sure what to do about that 16:09:19 it also seems like, given the level concept, we should disable use of mmap like in the abyss? 16:09:27 sure 16:09:33 !commit Don't let monsters talk through glass. 16:09:33 03elliptic ⛐ 0.19-a0-171-gee9af20: Don't let monsters talk through glass. 10(in the future, 44 files, 980+ 251-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/commit.png?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ee9af20 16:09:42 that is maybe a good idea 16:10:03 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-519-gb6a5606 (34) 16:10:15 It just make 5 take excruciatingly long on my local crawl 16:10:27 dubious ideas: disable impsults while in a resting delay 16:10:28 s/make/made hitting/ 16:10:40 or while there aren't any enemies near the player 16:10:40 wow, that's super nice of them! 16:10:43 how old is the dbro trunk version anyways 16:11:05 just log in and find out? 16:11:08 <|amethyst> ?V will tell you 16:11:46 -!- debo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:59 regret-index: for the monster sets, what kind of commitment do you want to see to the "mix up monsters" idea? Is the idea we should define one set of tiers and just use that? 16:12:18 It seems if we're going to have long lists of monsters, it's probably better to mostly have one list 16:12:46 one list is probably the best way to go about it, yeah 16:13:27 The loot I saw at the end didn't seem close to being worth the risk to my char, but that's always adjustable 16:13:48 well the loot I saw at both reward sections, since there where two reward rooms 16:15:30 this is probably the highest raw danger portal vault besides zigs, so power spiral in rewards seems dangerous (of course, it might also get more people killed) 16:15:35 is gauntlet up somewhere for testing or would I have to compile it locally 16:15:48 latter 16:15:49 that said, currently they use two "acquire any" 16:16:38 (and the base of the branch is three months old, so they've got even weaker acquirements than trunk- I keep meaning to rebase when I'm done stuff) 16:17:00 well you can also just merge trunk 16:17:12 esp now that you've put it online 16:17:29 a rebase can remove the merge commits, or we can even just leave them in 16:17:52 I could certainly go merge trunk in it for you 16:18:23 but wrt reward, I guess if you want to go for this as a "special challenge" portal then the reward being worth it is not so much an issue 16:18:40 it just seems to make the concept more similar to a zig if that's the case, in my mind 16:19:23 hrm 16:19:26 reducing danger is also an option if the rewards aren't worth it, of course 16:19:33 zigs do offer the ability to abort them after a few levels, which is kind of similar to this baring the mixing/choice aspects. Players will always elect to do extra challenges, at least 16:20:08 we *could* remove the depths zig...even could place this portal almost-always? 16:20:08 could remove all but the starting and finishing exits :P 16:20:19 or always? 16:20:23 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:20:34 save the zig for the zigfig in tomb 16:20:35 placing this always needs a lot more content >_> 16:21:00 well I guess it would need some more interesting choice vaults, yeah 16:21:17 Zigs don't offer much layout variety but they do have a ton of monster sets 16:21:24 I wanted to capture the tone of... pre-lair ice caves, but the context is pretty different 16:21:49 short and vicious is pretty cool, yeah 16:21:57 as cool as ice... 16:22:02 the melange is both more and less interesting than practically-literally-everything sets 16:22:35 melange has more individually unique arrangements but blurs together faster 16:22:36 you do have some sets that mix in monsters the player isn't likely to see in 3-runes otherwise 16:22:42 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]] 16:23:12 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:27:23 -!- Kenran has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:10 -!- oxeimon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36:03 -!- debo has quit [Quit: orb spiders :(] 16:36:21 -!- kryft has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:44 (I wonder if the other threat portal in the same range, of wizlabs, are too weak... >_>) 16:40:11 I think I know the answer based on previous discussions but who knows layouts the best now that Grunt is MIA? 16:41:01 my instincts say |amethyst 16:41:16 this is probably untrue 16:41:48 johnstein: I can read and understand layout lua, but I've not written one 16:41:50 !seen infiniplex 16:41:50 I last saw infiniplex at Tue Dec 16 23:28:34 2014 UTC (about 1y 24w 5d 21h 13m 16s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Page closed'. 16:41:54 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:54 they're pretty code intensive 16:41:58 yep 16:42:11 I was playing with the geoelf castle layout last year 16:42:22 neat stuff but kinda dense 16:42:38 but it's mostly logic dense. not shorthand c++ dense 16:42:45 not sure if that makes sense 16:43:05 I figured with some graph paper I could make sense of the layout logic 16:45:22 well, it's probably better to look at some generated layouts and refer to that as you read the code 16:46:03 try to understand the high-level operations on a very basic level first then look at the details 16:46:04 sure. I was tweaking and recreating levels 16:47:41 infiniplex used to say the harder part of layouts is coming up with a good idea, not necessarilly so much the code 16:47:58 rockit (L19 MuIE) ASSERT(in_non_diamond_int(r.start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 217 failed. (Vaults:1) 16:48:09 oh no, ray.cc! 16:55:48 !learn edit gauntlet[2] s|.*|todo: gilded inferno tile, visible -TELE status (and make -TELE not effect blinking?), no monsters talking through glass, wall-lowering-based layouts, uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere? awaken / paralyze opposition based on teleport use? you_teleport_to only blinking displaced monsters? (constriction issues)| 16:55:48 gauntlet[2/2]: todo: gilded inferno tile, visible -TELE status (and make -TELE not effect blinking?), no monsters talking through glass, wall-lowering-based layouts, uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere? awaken / paralyze opposition based on teleport use? you_teleport_to only blinking displaced monsters? (constriction issues) 16:56:00 -!- CanOfWorms has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:59:40 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:01 !killratio norris * recent 17:03:09 norris wins 1.334% of battles against * (recent). 17:06:14 after several years of ##-dev off-hand comments regarding wanting norris to be more interesting or removed I am so tempted to just cut mister sphinx with a buckler and invis and flavour jokes based on a surfer tile 17:08:33 may as well remove Wiglaf as well if you do that 17:08:59 -!- oxeimon1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:28 he seems like a unique for which you could introduce some new spell and have it be fairly thematic 17:09:44 !killratio frederick * recent 17:09:51 frederick wins 0.317% of battles against * (recent). 17:09:59 another unique that's more a triumph of theme than gameplay 17:10:41 torment... 17:10:58 dang 17:11:16 not sure making him undead would be that great though 17:11:17 reskin wiglaf to a formicid 17:11:21 -!- Sprort has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:24 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:25 doesn't have to be undead 17:11:35 well would he get some kind of torment immunity? 17:11:47 don't really like the idea of self-tormenting monsters 17:11:47 hurting himself and the player is well within the completely forgotten death cultist theme he has 17:11:59 well again that's going to get him killed even faster 17:12:16 since he doesn't have a stack of hw pots or a hw wands like the player 17:12:16 * regret-index shrugs 17:12:22 among other potential options 17:12:25 he does have para :P 17:12:36 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:12:55 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:46 Does anyone object to my giving asterion greater servant of mak (summon cap of one) and dropping his spectral weapon? 17:14:04 again my doing that doesn't preclude anyone from using the monster spell spectral weapon elsewhere 17:14:06 I can't lie that I also want to even out adding a lategame unique >_> 17:14:08 if they can find a good use for it 17:16:31 deep elf knightsssss 17:16:47 (or inquisitors or whatever) 17:17:04 i recall pf having some idea of making uniques more worth fighting by guaranteeing some loot quality 17:17:14 some of them have this 17:17:46 deep elf knightsssss 17:17:52 aizul, quit slacking off and get back to guarding my treasure 17:18:10 give spectral weapon to frederick 17:18:38 alongside battlesphere, right 17:18:59 -!- Rust3dCor3 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:20:17 ebering: I fully support that 17:20:56 ebering: and for early uniques too. Only that "quality loot" could easily mean "+0 cloak" (as with Yiuf) or "+1 AC ring" etc. 17:21:44 give all unique either /hw or /haste 17:21:45 imo 17:22:24 most players are more excited by yiuf's staff than his cloak IME, although i am not 17:22:39 both are good 17:22:43 yiuf loot best loot 17:22:52 the staff is very good but so dangerous 17:22:54 clearly boris should have a randart robe every time 17:23:11 also I think giving better loot to uniques works much better for early unique than late uniques 17:23:47 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:23:59 rip pikel/grinder pain 17:24:02 since it is both easier to make the loot useful and those uniques are more likely to be skipped currently 17:25:09 -!- removeelyvilon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:26:49 <|amethyst> so, with Pakellas... making quick charge better the less maxmp you have seems a little perverse 17:28:20 should there be an easy way to add this little extra loot in the des files? 17:28:46 <|amethyst> you'd probably do it in mon-gear.cc, not in the .des 17:29:31 I would like that. 17:29:57 which uniques are the ones that need said extra loot? 17:30:03 <|amethyst> I mean, you can say edmund ; dire flail . ring mail 17:30:22 |amethyst: then he won't have the loot if some other vault places him, right? 17:30:22 <|amethyst> but then that only affects uniques placed by that specific vault 17:30:27 <|amethyst> right 17:31:20 gammafunk: I'd start with the most dangerous (or really most skipped) early uniques: sigmund, grinder, etc 17:31:29 <|amethyst> hm 17:31:33 <|amethyst> @??grinder 17:31:33 Grinder (025) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 32-47 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Dam: 1105(pain) | 05demonic, 10items, 10doors, unholy, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 276 | Sp: pain (d14) [06!sil], paralyse [06!sil], blink [06!sil] | Sz: little | Int: human. 17:31:51 <|amethyst> what would you give grinder? 17:31:58 <|amethyst> a pain weapon instead of AF_PAIN ? 17:32:04 way too much 17:32:09 -!- Yermak has joined ##crawl-dev 17:32:40 Hello. One can't aim wands of lightning at walls now. "You cannot see that place." 17:32:40 !lg * recent ikiller=uniq D lvl<=9 xl<=10 !be !tr s=ikiller% 17:32:44 sigmund could get whatever scythe buffs were previously discussed 17:32:47 |amethyst: I think he used to have a pain weapon and that was too much? or maybe I am confused and that was just pikel 17:32:53 yermak: fixed already 17:32:54 <|amethyst> Yermak: 17:32:55 <|amethyst> %git 17:32:55 07wheals02 * 0.19-a0-519-gb6a5606: Un-break targetting of walls (#10479). 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b6a5606436a5 17:33:00 96713 games for * (recent ikiller=uniq D lvl<=9 xl<=10 !be !tr): 16529x Sigmund (17.09%), 12989x Natasha (13.43%), 9959x Grinder (10.30%), 9579x Robin (9.90%), 6580x Crazy Yiuf (6.80%), 5452x Pikel (5.64%), 5006x Terence (5.18%), 4220x Ijyb (4.36%), 3904x Menkaure (4.04%), 3034x Duvessa (3.14%), 2599x Jessica (2.69%), 1890x Joseph (1.95%), 1823x Blork the orc (1.88%), 1822x Edmund (1.88%), 1742x P... 17:33:15 How long does it take for changes to affet cxc? 17:33:20 ??rebuild[2 17:33:20 rebuild[2/2]: Trunk update start times in UTC (second number during summer time): CAO: 1700; CDO: 0600/0500; CLAN: 2300/2200; CBRO: 0800/0700; CXC: 0500/0400; CPO: every 15 minutes 17:33:24 thx 17:33:41 this is quite the tangent from keeping norris or not >_> 17:33:41 we could do a cxc rebuild now if need be 17:33:41 not really 17:33:41 !killratio natasha * recent 17:33:57 around 7 hours otherwise 17:34:00 she gets a lot of kills due to her speed and her reviving 17:34:07 gammafunk: yeah, I was surprised 17:34:09 now that she revives with the same hd 17:34:11 natasha wins 7.425% of battles against * (recent). 17:34:14 oh, she does? 17:34:16 yep 17:34:22 -!- sanka_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:34:30 she still got a lot before that change though 17:34:33 Could a dbro rebuild happen soon 17:34:35 I sort of liked how each one was weaker than the previous one 17:34:40 the trunk is now behind 0.18 17:34:41 though HD 1 was sad or whatever it was 17:34:43 that reminds me, players should revive with the same hd too :P 17:34:53 wheals: yes, clearly an important bug to fix for consistency 17:35:10 and all fe players should start with a cboe 17:35:28 natasha actually already gives sort of decent loot because you get three attempts at it 17:35:29 <|amethyst> gammafunk: all Fe players should start with Power Leap :P 17:35:33 nooo 17:35:36 -!- nezrel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:42 <|amethyst> do you get loot from the first two kills? 17:35:44 felid jumping was bad, people! 17:35:55 <|amethyst> I thought the loot went with the respawn 17:36:02 <|amethyst> at least that's how the wand seems to work when she has one 17:36:04 you only get loot on the third kill i think 17:36:19 |amethyst: hm, was that changed? 17:36:33 maybe that was a bug that got fixed sometime and I didn't notice 17:36:49 <|amethyst> %git 7e33cd4c 17:36:49 07wheals02 * 0.14-a0-2775-g7e33cd4: Let Natasha start with a wand, and have her keep her items through death. 10(2 years, 3 months ago, 3 files, 15+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7e33cd4c7c79 17:36:51 you get whatever she picked up in her current incarnation, and after 3rd kill whatever she spawned with 17:36:52 yeah, I've noticed I only get her wands etc when I get the third kill 17:36:53 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:37:00 is what I have seen 17:37:07 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:18 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:21 she probably does pick up more stuff than most uniques, due to move speed 17:37:34 in that case I'd nominate sigmund grinder natasha ijyb menkaure for getting loot 17:37:34 it *looks* like different loot from each kill but I am almost certain it's stuff she picked up 17:37:44 <|amethyst> ijyb kind of has loot sometimes 17:37:44 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:44 well I guess even more so since she gets revived awake 17:37:49 <|amethyst> could guarantee a high-tier wand 17:38:09 menkaure because he is slow and easy to skip (so an incentive to kill would be good) 17:38:10 <|amethyst> @??menkaure 17:38:10 Menkaure (06M) | Spd: 8 | HD: 3 | HP: 19-28 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Dam: 25 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 171 | Sp: pain (d14), haste, s.torment | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:38:17 well adding loot has the thing where it makes the unique more dangerous 17:38:18 <|amethyst> menkaure doesn't use items 17:38:20 <|amethyst> would have to change that 17:38:22 ijyb because he has a bunch of MP 17:38:30 HP? 17:38:31 |amethyst: monsters don't have to use items to drop them I hope... 17:38:38 |amethyst: the idea isn't to buff these uniques! 17:38:47 Ijyb with a guaranteed high-tier wand would be a big buff 17:38:47 gammafunk: they should just drop that item 17:38:55 unless he never used it 17:38:58 <|amethyst> oh 17:38:59 I think there are checks for usable items? because of past bugs 17:39:03 dpeg_: yeah 17:39:16 giving them a powerful usable item is going to make them much more dangerous 17:39:19 think of it like 1-item knapsack they have 17:39:20 <|amethyst> so these would be nethack-style death drops? 17:39:26 yes 17:39:30 gotta learn from the best 17:39:41 it's kind of a spoiler thing if we don't mention this 17:39:46 how is the player to know? 17:39:49 easy to mention it 17:39:56 <|amethyst> mention it where? 17:40:02 I guess the unique description 17:40:04 in the manual 17:40:07 <|amethyst> "It is carrying a long sword but doesn't know how to wield it?" 17:40:10 also players will figure out quickly enough 17:40:14 <|amethyst> s/?"/."?/ 17:40:17 clearly when you kill menkaure he explodes into a bunch of scrolls. 17:40:25 yeah |amethyst is pointing out how it's a bit awkward 17:40:33 players won't ask why they get loot, don't worry 17:40:40 but just giving them usable loot is probably not going to work out well in any case 17:41:01 these are dangerous uniques and it would make them more so if they can frequently use nice items 17:41:09 |amethyst: I mean, monsters already carry some items they can't use I think? at least I'm pretty sure I've seen them drop potions of types that they never drink 17:41:11 there is no problem with consumables and rings 17:41:38 <|amethyst> elliptic: yeah, with potions, scrolls, wands, and misc items they'll pick up things they can't use 17:41:42 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:46 <|amethyst> I think we explicitly removed monster pickup of spellbooks 17:42:02 but yeah this is sort of problematic if the loot is limited to items that the monster might normally pick up but will never use 17:42:05 <|amethyst> I guess we put the weapon in some other slot? 17:42:05 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:14 btw, roxanne's spellbook is already an example of this sort of drop 17:42:26 <|amethyst> we could do the roxanne thing 17:42:40 <|amethyst> but I don't think that would work so well with most uniques 17:42:40 yeah 17:42:44 Thematically it can be "they guard a piece of treasure" or something along those lines, wrt descriptions and justification 17:43:24 "they guard a precious keepsake that reminds them of a loved one" 17:43:28 then you get a wand of acid 17:43:32 gammafunk: yeah, though with the sort of earlygame loot that we'd likely want to use calling it "treasure" might be a bit misleading :P 17:43:34 We had a brief time when unique drops where annotated as such: "troll hide {Purgy}". I think kilobyte got rid of it. 17:43:46 dpeg_: that still happens with hides 17:43:49 think we still have that 17:43:50 also psyche 17:43:52 s dagger 17:43:54 ah, bad example then :) 17:44:07 <|amethyst> the thing with weapons was removed once those were identified 17:44:08 Menkaure just had an beloved uncle who liked to shoot acid at people 17:44:12 I think it adds a lot of flavour without hurting the interface. 17:44:30 <|amethyst> the weapon annotation was for the things where you know it's one of two brands but not which one 17:44:34 <|amethyst> e.g. psyche 17:44:48 dpeg_: the problem was that people wondered whether the item was special in some way 17:44:53 people! 17:44:59 they still wonder that with xtahua hide I think 17:45:11 yeah and express disappointment when it isn't special 17:45:15 which I guess I can understand 17:45:18 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:29 actually I should check that and possibly file a bug, because I have had a recent game where Psyche dropped a "dagger of chaos {Psyche}" 17:45:34 the xtahua hide could provide a random resistance which changes every turn 17:45:37 so I think that annotation is still in there somewhere 17:45:49 Zannick: tiamat already drops a cloak that more or less does that 17:45:58 look, Zannick is already trying to make it special 17:45:59 oh boy i should play more often :p 17:46:08 to be fair, tiamat is hella rare. 17:46:09 Note to self: cannot have flavour because of players. 17:46:19 <|amethyst> geekosaur: hm, those get explicit removed on load even 17:46:24 flavour is only good if it kills players, dpeg 17:46:27 dpeg_: at least you won't have a bad taste in your mouth! 17:46:39 dpeg_: you teach players to eat healthy bland things first, then you let them have a small treat on the weekend 17:46:39 <|amethyst> geekosaur: I think Donald's shield is the only one that is still annotated thus 17:46:42 after dinner 17:46:46 regret-index: anything is good if it kills players, but you know that, of course 17:46:53 <|amethyst> geekosaur: (but even that annotation looks like it's removed on load) 17:46:58 flavoured poison 17:47:12 <|amethyst> So why can't we allow these uniques to use their loot? 17:47:24 |amethyst: we can't buff these uniques, which are already dangerous 17:47:28 |amethyst: well, that adds a lot of constraints for giving it to them 17:47:38 it's a lot harder to give them loot and adjust the unique to keep the same difficutly 17:47:48 <|amethyst> so what does "anything is good if it kills players" mean? 17:47:54 and if we make the unique harder, the objective isn't achieved 17:47:57 <|amethyst> "anything is good if it kills players, except buffing monsters"? 17:48:09 >_> 17:48:22 the unique is clearly carrying the loot back to the surface to sell 17:48:26 the objective was to make players fight these uniques, which they don't because the reward isn't worth the risk 17:48:37 "anything is good if it kills players, except buffing Sigmund" is closer IMO 17:48:46 yeah 17:49:06 I do think that giving uniques loot is a lot nicer if the unique is using the loot 17:49:09 There is no problem if they drop a consumable -- they could've hold on to it "for later". 17:49:34 yeah that's just harder to pull off, them using the loot, since you have to adjust them in other ways 17:49:59 like an early unique with a high tier attack wand is terrifying regardless of the unique 17:50:08 <|amethyst> does archmagi work on monsters? 17:50:09 can we come up with a list of rings that we can give to early unique without being too strong (for the player)? 17:50:25 <|amethyst> that might be one possible sigmund buff, though probably way too good to be guaranteed 17:50:32 archmagi could be something that works ok as loot 17:50:33 like +N Dex/Str/Int/AC/EV (N=1 or 2?) 17:50:34 |amethyst: I don't know, but I doubt we want to give out anything that good yeah - pain weapon was problematic already 17:51:00 yeah it's really really good as an item, so that probably would have to be pretty rare anyhow 17:51:47 maybe for some lategame unique archmagi could be reasonable, since you have a decent chance of getting it by then anyway 17:52:11 <|amethyst> I was just thinking that, when I fight sigmund and jessica, I am always happy when I get a good robe 17:52:15 but I'm not sure how well buffing loot on lategame uniques works anyway 17:52:25 <|amethyst> so if the robe were always good 17:52:30 |amethyst: yeah, I was considering just "give sigmund a guaranteed ego robe" or something 17:52:41 that's probably pretty reasonable 17:52:42 though that is a sigmund buff... 17:52:57 I think just glowing would suffice: not necessarily an ego, but at least an enchantment 17:52:57 <|amethyst> sigmund defensive buff though 17:52:57 -!- miek_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:53:22 hrm 17:53:28 <|amethyst> is +2 robe that good? 17:53:30 I wonder, like 17:53:36 <|amethyst> as loot 17:53:39 @??sigmund 17:53:39 Sigmund (08@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 25-35 | AC/EV: 2/11 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 224 | Sp: throw flame (3d5), invisibility, magic dart (3d4), confuse | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:53:56 6 AC vs 4 AC is sort of significant 17:54:04 is the thing 17:54:34 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:46 I guess could decrease sigmund base AC to compensate 17:55:50 <|amethyst> @??jessica 17:55:50 Jessica (15@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 8-11 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 5 | natural, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(10) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 37 | Sp: pain (d14), slow, haste, blink | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:56:08 I don't think jessica needs any changes 17:57:26 <|amethyst> ? 17:57:28 @??sigmund ; . 17:57:28 Sigmund (08@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 25-35 | AC/EV: 2/11 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 224 | Sp: throw flame (3d5), invisibility, magic dart (3d4), confuse | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:57:42 <|amethyst> it looks like sigmund is killed more than jessica is 17:57:42 -!- regret-index has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:57:56 @??sigmund ; dagger 17:57:56 Sigmund (08@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 25-35 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 222 | Sp: throw flame (3d5), invisibility, magic dart (3d4), confuse | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:58:06 it's 2 vs 4 AC 17:58:06 <|amethyst> which leads me to think that people avoid jessica more than they avoid sigmund, unless there's something I'm missing about the placement 17:58:06 not 4 vs 6 17:58:07 |amethyst: sigmund generates more, no? 17:58:10 sigmund has 0 innate ac 17:58:20 jessica is just not a dangerous unique 17:58:27 jessica is pretty dangerous 17:58:27 <|amethyst> aha 17:58:39 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess it's placement 17:58:41 minmay: wow, I never knew that 17:58:53 <|amethyst> sigmund can generate on D:4-6 where jessica can't 17:58:54 good @?? being misleading and taking armour into account for some monsters but not others 17:59:14 or whatever it is doing 17:59:33 <|amethyst> !lm * current uniq=sigmund d:2 17:59:35 4535. [2016-06-06 21:57:04] dadrew1 the Chiller (L3 DrIE) killed Sigmund on turn 1710. (D:2) 17:59:36 <|amethyst> !lm * current uniq=jessica d:2 17:59:37 or was it changed recently? 17:59:38 8332. [2016-06-06 21:58:52] Srekto the Chopper (L3 HOGl) killed Jessica on turn 1475. (D:2) 17:59:39 @??orc warrior 17:59:39 orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 21-32 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 132 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 17:59:52 <|amethyst> @??orc warrior ; nothing 17:59:52 orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 21-32 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 132 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:27 <|amethyst> elliptic: if the monster has only a chance of getting the equipment, then it's random which equipment 'monster' will see 18:00:27 best part is that the HP range it gives changes based on equipment 18:00:32 @??deep elf blademaster 18:00:32 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 90-126 | AC/EV: 3/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 2598 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:00:35 @??deep elf blademaster ; fruit 18:00:35 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 87-120 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 2587 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:00:49 <|amethyst> that's because HP range is from a random sample 18:01:12 <|amethyst> and by giving the fruit you are rolling one more number, so the RNG results aren't the same 18:01:18 yeah 18:01:20 <|amethyst> one more number per iteration 18:01:59 <|amethyst> @??deep elf blademaster ; wand of iceblast 18:01:59 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 87-120 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 2587 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:02:01 <|amethyst> @??deep elf blademaster ; wand of lightning 18:02:01 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 87-120 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 2587 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:02:08 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19-a0-519-gb6a5606 (34) 18:02:12 <|amethyst> @??deep elf blademaster ; wand of lightning . fruit 18:02:12 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 84-118 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 2566 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:02:31 -!- Krakhan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:53 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 18:03:15 -!- DevlanMud|Lappy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:03:44 Lightli: dbro isn't on automatic rebuild and I don't have it set up for web rebuild. I can get to rebuilding it this week 18:03:59 k 18:04:04 yeah no worries wrt dbro, johnstein 18:04:11 There is exactly one person who is complaining about it... 18:04:28 I sort of feel like @?? would be more useful if it gave the base AC/EV rather than the average that it has with normal gear 18:05:02 gammafunk: sure. but at BeRotato Org we take customer satisfaction very seriously 18:05:07 but I guess that is why we have ; nothing 18:05:10 -!- devlan1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:05:31 oh, see that's the opposite of my "player's can't have nice things" philosophy 18:05:33 -!- miek_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:01 @??orc warlord 18:06:02 orc warlord (11o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 94-126 | AC/EV: 12/7 | Dam: 32 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 1671 | Sp: battlecry [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:06:11 @??orc warlord ; nothing 18:06:11 orc warlord (11o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 94-126 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 32 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 1671 | Sp: battlecry [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 18:06:21 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:06:33 -!- tealeaves has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:18 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:10:33 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:53 hrm, I need to figure out how this needs to work with summon cap 18:18:45 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:18 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:27:14 -!- Amphouse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:29:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:07 -!- JimmahDean has quit [] 18:31:27 03Lasty02 07* 0.19-a0-520-g1d5ec85: Make amulet of mana regen scale with time spent (|amethyst) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d5ec85217f8 18:31:27 03Lasty02 07* 0.19-a0-521-ga1b21dd: Decrease the weight of MP+9 on randarts (elliptic) 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a1b21dd13fb4 18:33:28 -!- scummos| has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:40 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49:25 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:27 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:16 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:58 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:05 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-521-ga1b21dd (34) 19:10:14 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:06 -!- Azzkikr has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11:39 -!- nikheizen has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:21 -!- lukano has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:01 -!- Zeor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:14 The game leaks when an enemy has rC armour, without explaining it (Ensorcelled Hibernation will target you instead of them, highlighting them will say "not susceptible") 19:14:18 -!- ZiBuDo has joined ##crawl-dev 19:14:55 <|amethyst> !bug 10301 19:14:56 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10301 19:15:00 <|amethyst> rchandra: ^ 19:15:20 ah, good 19:15:41 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16:46 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:07 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:50 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:22:20 -!- zero_one has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:04 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:00 -!- Amphouse_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:24:59 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:25:21 -!- jehoesefat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:50 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:57 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:26:18 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 19:42:11 -!- serq has quit [Quit: und weg...] 19:43:26 -!- Tarara is now known as Taraiph 19:44:26 -!- JStrange_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45:59 03regret-index02 {|amethyst} 07[nfm-0.18.2-candidate] * 0.18.1-42-gdb44a80: Don't place a test suite vault in regular games 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db44a8007c8b 19:45:59 03PleasingFungus02 {|amethyst} 07[nfm-0.18.2-candidate] * 0.18.1-43-ga8f9c70: Fix trog disabling spell training on join 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a8f9c70ecb06 19:45:59 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[nfm-0.18.2-candidate] * 0.18.1-44-g9a356b6: Don't allow power leap while in treeform (|amethyst) 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9a356b679b99 19:45:59 03|amethyst02 07[nfm-0.18.2-candidate] * 0.18.1-45-gd1a3d35: Don't allow treeform shadow step either. 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 11+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d1a3d35a36c9 19:45:59 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[nfm-0.18.2-candidate] * 0.18.1-46-g8b63c2b: Make amulet of mana regen scale with time spent (|amethyst) 10(76 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b63c2b85067 19:47:01 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:07 !lm * uniq=asterion 19:49:11 34163. [2016-06-06 23:43:46] jake482 the Slayer (L23 FoFi of Okawaru) killed Asterion on turn 51600. (Vaults:3) 19:49:16 !lm * uniq=asterion s=br 19:49:17 34163 milestones for * (uniq=asterion): 6144x Spider, 5809x Vaults, 5742x Elf, 5549x Snake, 4364x Depths, 3515x Swamp, 2324x Shoals, 447x D, 195x Lair, 48x Orc, 26x Abyss 19:49:34 !lm * uniq=asterion s=br x=avg(xl) 19:49:35 34163 milestones for * (uniq=asterion): 6144x Spider [16.88], 5809x Vaults [19.7], 5742x Elf [19.13], 5549x Snake [17.07], 4364x Depths [22.01], 3515x Swamp [16.9], 2324x Shoals [17.72], 447x D [17.12], 195x Lair [16.39], 48x Orc [17.73], 26x Abyss [23.62] 19:50:18 -!- WorkSight has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:50:52 -!- Alazlam has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:52:20 -!- yogidabear has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:53:07 -!- admiral_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:54:25 how's it going, dudes and dudettes 19:54:34 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:39 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:46 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:42 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:06:12 chillin' like Elyvilion 20:08:59 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:09:42 03Lasty02 07* 0.19-a0-522-g16d2d02: Adjust a few sacrifice values 10(12 seconds ago, 2 files, 9+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/16d2d0230a50 20:10:08 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:31 03Lasty02 07* 0.19-a0-523-g713c38e: Drop vault guard XP a bit (Snack) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/713c38ed8a8b 20:15:27 -!- zizzlebop has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:16:45 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:03 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:15 -!- wheals_ has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:25 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:25:55 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:29:32 !tell pleasingfungus http://dpaste.com/3ZV0RNR I think the messaging should be an overall response which is more idempotent 20:29:32 chequers: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 20:29:32 chequers: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 20:32:00 -!- myp has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:57 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:38:31 -!- JStrange_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:55 -!- regret-index has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:04 wait tlaloc is one of the names 20:40:12 that's like if qazlal was >_> 20:42:08 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:20 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:42:58 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45:40 -!- wheals_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:53 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:50:32 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50:40 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:27 -!- Zekka has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:06 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:03 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-523-g713c38e (34) 21:11:17 03elliptic02 07* 0.19-a0-524-gac65b45: Reset corrosion amount when revived from death (qw). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac65b45377ff 21:13:31 -!- Shard1697 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:14:30 -!- namelastname112 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:19:14 !hs qw fe-- 21:19:15 2. hyperqwbe the Ripper (L12 FeBe of Trog), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:11 (david_orc_5) on 2014-09-23 05:26:08, with 25767 points after 27033 turns and 0:17:18. 21:19:31 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:19:37 offline testing 21:21:19 the corrosion lua doesn't check whether DUR_CORROSION is active (just looks at the prop) so qw died when corroded, revived, and then still thought it was corroded and rested to try to end corrosion until it starved 21:21:41 poor guy 21:21:43 how did it revive? wizmode, or? 21:21:47 chequers: felid 21:21:53 ah 21:23:00 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:04 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:34 is there an option to use the player highlighting in console to act as a tiles-style health bar? couldn't seem to find anything that uses that at all, perhaps it could be manually set in ready(). 21:25:48 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 21:26:12 -!- Demise_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:50 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:54 <|amethyst> by changing the colour? 21:27:12 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:28 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:53 <|amethyst> not currently possible, since fake cursor uses just flip_colour 21:27:59 <|amethyst> also because not everyone uses fake cursor 21:29:51 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:58 <|amethyst> clearly we need U+F01E0 COMBINING CHARACTER HEALTH BAR 0% through U+F01EA COMBINING CHARACTER HEALTH BAR 100% 21:33:45 there's someone who uses ☺ and ☹ etc. 21:34:07 wow those are really mismatched in this font 21:37:55 uses those for his health? 21:38:30 changes the player glyph based on health, yeah 21:38:51 <|amethyst> you could also change the player foreground colour 21:40:25 <|amethyst> which might have been what rchandra meant in the first place, in which case it's possible with ready() but there's no built-in option for it 21:42:05 I meant the background colour, but might be worth doing that with the fg 21:42:28 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:43:26 &rc gammafunk 21:43:30 http://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/rcfiles/crawl-git/gammafunk.rc 21:43:38 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:43:58 -!- grisha5 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:44:16 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:45:47 wheals: do you remember who that is? 21:46:05 03|amethyst02 07* 0.19-a0-525-g4eae7fd: Automatically handle missing gods in tgw_lugonu_bribe. 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4eae7fd2cd49 21:47:07 no, sorry 21:47:19 -!- CanOfWorms has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:20 i bet if you ask around someone would know 21:47:21 -!- AlexM_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:47:39 grep ☺ *.rc 21:47:50 <|amethyst> doing that 21:47:54 <|amethyst> on CSZO rcs 21:48:14 it'll find me :) (that's my cloud glyph) 21:48:17 <|amethyst> so far just mon_glyph += friendly sensed monster : ☺ (Harkenn and KiloByte) 21:48:49 you should probably leave a comment as to which gods aren't listed in that altar by virtue of no conduct to work against, |amethyst 21:49:25 (...also, qazlal worshippers could be taunted with a ring of stealth :P) 21:49:43 <|amethyst> yeah, I was thinking of ring of stealth for Qaz 21:50:43 <|amethyst> murphy.rc uses mon_glyph = pandemonium lord : ☺ 21:50:47 "An item emerges from the Abyss! Perhaps it is an incitement to worship... or even an insult?" 21:50:55 that's a bit tell don't show 21:51:19 "Lugonu's attention briefly turns to you... and an item emerges from the Abyss!" 21:51:34 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:41 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 21:51:46 -!- mibe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:01 "turns toward your god"? 21:52:14 <|amethyst> regret-index: doesn't work with No God 21:52:15 changing player glyph based on health, hah 21:52:26 I know rchandra loves cute glyph things like that :) 21:52:34 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:52:50 I'm hoping to do it just with colour, as I like my race-based glyphs 21:53:09 I prefer to torment Tiles spectators with weird Tile hacks, and leave my glyphs out of the Weird Zone 21:53:24 oh, yeah color is kind of cool 21:53:32 recently found that my Draconians needed fixing, as when they grow up you.race() is no longer Draconian 21:53:39 wouldn't be hard to do at all with lua 21:54:23 One of my favorite RandomTiles examples I made (but don't use) is "Snorgy Snail" 21:54:38 If you're a troll, you use purgy tile, but snorg's tile when berserked 21:54:46 nice 21:54:48 and become a torpor snail when slowed after zerk 21:55:02 -!- MgDark has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:03 ... bizarre 21:55:04 <|amethyst> don't see any relevant rcs on CSZO 21:55:10 thanks |amethyst, wheals 21:55:22 huh 21:55:26 -!- aredel has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:55:30 <|amethyst> one player uses lightgreen ☺ for player, but not based on health 21:55:32 yeah clearly we need to ad Tr of chei unique for the slow status, instead of torpor snail 21:55:33 gammafunk: is there lua for that 21:55:45 <|amethyst> (also searched for 263[aA] 21:55:47 <|amethyst> ) 21:55:49 chequers: yeah, in the RandomTiles.rc it's an example 21:55:55 ds of chei to finally have monster slouch 21:55:55 but you need to use RandomTiles of course 21:56:05 ??randomtiles 21:56:06 I don't have a page labeled randomtiles in my learndb. 21:56:08 ??gammafunkrc 21:56:08 gammafunkrc[1/1]: Lua code for randomizing player tiles (RandomTiles), setting skill targets, loading default skill settings/target, bread swinging, rc option toggling, and others: https://github.com/gammafunk/dcss-rc 21:56:17 see the RandomTiles docs 21:56:28 you'll get tired of it probably pretty quickly, fair warning :) 21:56:35 :0 21:56:46 if you have the fast+slow status does it match the 'slow' status 21:56:48 oh, that's why I didn't use profane servitors before, actually showing in a regular game that umbra is blocked by permarock (...zigsprint?) is weird 21:56:50 Dynast does love the shifting tiamat I made in that, and uses it fairly frequently 21:57:02 chequers: it might, but that's easy to fix 21:57:24 -!- BanMido has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:35 well, actually it might require some tweaking since I think it checkes for slow status specifically and doesn't condition on fast, which is a separate status 21:58:52 oh I think I know how to fix that case actually, so I should update that example 22:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:09 might steal your/'lliptics target_skill 22:01:01 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-526-gbe2e51c: Give Asterion Greater Servant of Makhleb instead of Spectral Weapon 10(2 hours ago, 5 files, 28+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be2e51cfc7cd 22:01:07 yeah that's super nice 22:01:32 the best code I ever stole! 22:01:45 oh no, another mutation source 22:01:58 you're right, should have doubled cure mut drops 22:02:10 the game is u n w i n n a b l e 22:02:25 perhaps Maud should learn spectral weapon 22:02:27 the need for four less runes increases by the commit 22:02:53 there are probably a few monsters where it might work, yeah; just should have a decent weapon 22:03:08 !killratio maud * recent 22:03:21 maud wins 5.952% of battles against * (recent). 22:03:26 wow, not too shabby 22:03:46 -!- Shard1697 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:50 !killratio josephine * recent 22:04:07 josephine wins 1.818% of battles against * (recent). 22:04:26 give josephine a big old exec axe 22:04:30 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:37 Granny's gotta axe.. 22:04:39 was just trying to think of comparative placements 22:04:43 @??maud 22:04:43 Maud (05@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 96-136 | AC/EV: 10/7 | Dam: 32 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(80) | XP: 1739 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:04:44 @??harold 22:04:45 Harold (09@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 62-90 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Dam: 12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 993 | Sp: b.fire (3d17), blink [04emergency] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:04:55 ...eesh 22:05:04 hrm 22:05:07 @??maud ; nothing 22:05:07 Maud (05@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 96-136 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 32 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(80) | XP: 1739 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:05:10 dam: 32 22:05:14 interesting number 22:05:16 @??rupert 22:05:16 Rupert (04@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 100-144 | AC/EV: 7/8 | Dam: 21 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100) | XP: 2928 | Sp: paralyse, confuse, berserker rage [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:05:27 !killratio rupert * recent 22:05:28 I guess there are a lot of just ones and twos like that 22:05:38 rupert wins 6.640% of battles against * (recent). 22:05:40 @??asterion 22:05:40 Asterion (12H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 107-144 | AC/EV: 10/2 04(headbutt: d20-1) | Dam: 35, 20 | natural, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100) | Vul: 08holy, 11silver | XP: 2649 | Sp: major destruction (3d20 / 3d22 / 3d27 / 3d25 / 3d6 / 3d24 / 3d28) [11!AM], spectral weapon [11!AM], haste [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:06:03 silver vuln? 22:06:16 makhleb 22:06:16 makes him chaotic 22:06:23 Don't question it! 22:06:23 @??chaos champion 22:06:23 putrid chaos champion (006) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 75-104 | AC/EV: 8/11 | Dam: 25 | natural, 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, unholy | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 1265 | Sp: b.random (3d19 / 3d22 / 3d24 / 3d20) [11!AM], c.chaos [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:06:30 phew 22:06:45 player/monster inconsistency 22:06:51 category 1 lore failure 22:07:00 ps remove silver :) 22:07:12 but what will I use for cherub buffing without silver 22:07:17 !learn add reserved_clan_names Category 1 Lore Failure [chequers] 22:07:18 reserved clan names[22/22]: Category 1 Lore Failure [chequers] 22:07:22 ...silver-limned slings. 22:08:17 A silver sling does seem like a holy weapon proposal that someone made 22:08:20 Silver+Holy 22:08:26 &rc discorobin 22:08:28 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/crawl-0.17/DiscoRobin.rc 22:08:43 rchandra goes deeper down the RC rabbit hole... 22:08:52 silver sling... well, I haven't had an artifact merged yet 22:08:59 that one appears to be a default 22:10:15 an artefact that causes monsters attempting chaotic attacks to explode 22:10:15 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-525-g4eae7fd (34) 22:10:22 probably shouldn't be swappable though then 22:10:45 probably shouldn't exist either! 22:10:51 sling of quicksilver 22:11:07 yara's sling? 22:11:40 -!- tabstorm has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:45 i guess we have to ask pleasingfungus who yara was in general and if yara was a halfling in particular 22:11:51 ah, 0.6 has stuff. !hs discorobin x=src,cv 22:12:18 If PF says that Yara was a halfling, I would be surprised indeed 22:12:33 ??yara 22:12:33 yara's violent unravelling[1/2]: A Level 5 Hexes/Transmutations spell that dispels all enchantments (dispellable effects) on the target; if there were any, causes a radius-1 explosion that damages and malmutates everything within. Found in the Books of Hindrance and Enchantments. 22:12:38 !apt ha 22:12:39 Ha: Fighting: -1, Short: 3!, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: -2, Polearms: -3*, Staves: -2, Slings: 4!, Bows: 2, Xbows: -1, Throw: 1!, Armour: 1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 2, Shields: 1, UC: -2*, Splcast: -3, Conj: -2, Hexes: -1, Charms: 1, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -4*, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 1, Earth: 0, Poison: -1, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 1!, HP: -1, MP: 0 22:12:51 there's also 22:12:51 !apt sling 22:12:51 Slings: Ha: 4!, Ko: 2, Sp: 2, Ce: 1, DD: 1, Fo: 1, Mi: 1, Fe: N/A, Te: 0, Op: 0, Hu: 0, Gh: -1, VS: -1, Gr: -1, HO: -1, Ds: -1, Na: -1, Dg: -1, Dr: -1, HE: -2, Mu: -2, Mf: -2, Vp: -2, DE: -2, Og: -3, Tr: -4* 22:12:52 !apt fo 22:12:53 Fo: Fighting: 1, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: 1, Bows: -2, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: 1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 3, Shields: 2!, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: -1, Hexes: 2, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: 1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 3!, Inv: 2, Evo: 1, Exp: 1!, HP: 0, MP: 0 22:13:02 +1 22:13:07 yeah and Sp I guess 22:13:08 !apt ko 22:13:08 Ko: Fighting: 1, Short: 3!, Long: -2, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: -2, Staves: -1, Slings: 2, Bows: -1, Xbows: 2!, Throw: 1!, Armour: -2, Dodge: 2, Stealth: 4, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 0, Charms: -2, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: -1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 2, Exp: 1!, HP: -2, MP: 0 22:13:18 I wonder what pf wanted a yara's loom wizlab to have 22:13:22 besides quicksilver dragons 22:14:45 wonder what kind of weird things you can even do with the loom idea 22:14:56 can't really make webs do anything different 22:15:01 <|amethyst> hm 22:15:10 -!- Amphouse has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:15:13 ah, orb spiders and quicksilver dragons, a beautiful combination 22:15:35 maybe a good vault define with the orb spider thing 22:15:39 but that's not just an orb spider 22:15:45 <|amethyst> someone in the CYC thread says they "ound a +3 Warriors Mirror" (presumably warlock's) but "could not tell where to put it so I put it down and stepped away slowly." 22:15:46 or is that not a spell 22:15:50 <|amethyst> the CYC thanks thread 22:15:57 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:58 <|amethyst> s/ound/f&/ 22:16:02 heh 22:16:08 <|amethyst> maybe it should be the +3 buckler "warlock's mirror" ? 22:16:09 doesn't the description say it's a shield? 22:16:22 mirrors in crawl are good 22:16:22 <|amethyst> I don't think they saw the description 22:16:33 if you inspect it 22:16:33 well I don't think that's super necessary 22:16:36 do they also walk away from phantom mirrors 22:16:36 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:37 it'll show up in W as well 22:16:38 if someone is too lazy to even read the item description 22:16:52 crawl still holds wonder to them 22:17:00 +7 Quicksilver Sling {silver, quicksilver} applies silver brand and additionally yara's violent unravelling on x% of hits 22:17:33 <|amethyst> +7 sling of dental amalgam 22:17:45 gammafunk: "Beging target_skill" 22:17:53 oh, oops 22:17:56 thanks I'll fix that 22:18:13 <|amethyst> rchandra: "# ☺ smily face x263a" :P 22:18:14 chequers: you should run it by the fungus, see what he thinks 22:18:37 |amethyst: sometimes the character would get lost in copy/paste and I'd have to find it again 22:18:44 <|amethyst> rchandra: "smily" 22:18:55 fair 22:18:55 slimy face 22:19:23 chequers: do you want people to start asking whether quicksilver dragons do extra damage to mutated players? 22:19:49 <|amethyst> silver + quicksilver seems like a pun item a bit 22:20:20 yeah probably no need to refer to it as quicksilver 22:20:32 although I see why you would 22:20:40 <|amethyst> silver + yara's is kind of an interesting combination 22:20:41 IMO it should just do unravelling 22:20:54 and not silver too 22:21:05 <|amethyst> in that it's Zin's element, plus a Zin-hated spell 22:21:25 man, Zin is such a drag... 22:21:32 maybe yara was a famous ha who *did* use tmut 22:22:06 <|amethyst> When I see "yara" I think chicken huts 22:22:47 I keep thinking the face of boe whispered "you are rot alone" because some of my tastes include garbage 22:26:38 i just read three pages of doctor who fanfic, thanks for nothing 22:27:21 I did say garbage. 22:29:28 -!- rj54x has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:29:39 -!- JimmahDean has quit [] 22:36:04 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:36 I heard melee was getting nerfed... 22:38:35 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:39:18 yes, turns out the double damage bug wasn't actually fixed, so it's getting fixed now 22:40:01 -!- jefus- has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:06 always nerf players 22:40:56 You know what branch could actually use a buff 22:40:57 Zot 22:41:00 melee is finished in crawl 22:41:11 not even joking, zot is easier than depths except Z:5 22:41:18 .cobbed 22:41:21 132. rezek the Shatterer (L27 OgWr of The Shining One), slain by a death cob on Zot:4 (kennysheep_blocky_room) on 2016-04-19 16:54:44, with 720065 points after 96506 turns and 13:01:15. 22:41:31 I miss hungercobs 22:41:35 I don't! 22:41:37 i dont 22:41:49 even though they killed me 22:41:56 yeah, maybe you should take off your amulet of inacc, rchandra 22:42:07 could guarantee vaults on zot:2-4 like depths, though I am sure that many stair vaults would be a bit much 22:42:35 I dont think people want to deal w/ stairvaults that much 22:42:39 also people will just teleport 22:42:58 the monster set is straight up weaker than U 22:43:10 like, would draconian packs even be a top threat in U? I think not... 22:43:10 the problem is really that depths just... went of as it did 22:43:21 -!- jeefus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:21 just put that one encompass vault from U that places all the up stairs in the center and the down stairs far away 22:43:27 and a ton of oods 22:43:29 grunt_runaround 22:43:33 yes, possibly 22:43:46 tabstorm: if zigs are any indication, I find draconian packs much tougher than most U enemies 22:43:56 ah, so make zot 5 zig floors 22:43:57 yeah, because you cant reposition in a zig 22:44:05 around a corner or in a corridor 22:44:15 at the very least it seems likely iron giants should leave depths, does that help with the comparison? 22:44:23 Iron giants prob. good in zot 22:44:32 for dis, I mean 22:44:33 i think theyre a little too storng for U 22:44:45 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:44:47 theyre already in dis, or do you mean only spawn them in Dis? 22:44:53 only in dis, yes 22:44:55 A lot of the difference comes down to entering depths at a lower xl and probably more people choose to clear depths 22:44:58 it would be fine I guess 22:45:28 a lot more loot from those depths vaults than zot floors, too 22:45:35 well, lots of zot monsters are dragons, draconians, and a few others (curse toe, off, egolem) can be threatening 22:45:38 as one-offs 22:45:44 rename to iron draconian 22:45:48 but dragons/dracs not too powerful 22:45:53 even gold dragons 22:46:00 a moth of wrath flies into view, etc. 22:46:02 teleport 22:46:12 so they're threatening 22:46:14 death drakes can be annoying, but they're rare 22:46:21 the upper dragons used to be more special before depths used them more >_> 22:46:21 Well, even berserk dracs not that threatening 22:46:34 Only a berserk orb guardian will really damage you 22:46:42 @??orb guardian 22:46:42 Orb Guardian (06X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 15 | HP: 66-95 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Dam: 45 | 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 12drown | XP: 2768 | Sz: Giant | Int: human. 22:46:49 @??red draconian monk perm_ench:berserk 22:46:49 red draconian monk (02q) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 147-213 | AC/EV: 7/20 | Dam: 52, 30, 22 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire | XP: 1938 | Sp: searing breath (3d20) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:46:50 !lg * zot recent / ckiller~~draconian 22:46:51 164/1135 games for * (zot recent): N=164/1135 (14.45%) 22:46:52 I'm not even that scared of berserk orb guardians anymore 22:47:26 idk, i tab through berserk draconians but tend to fear berserk orb guardians 22:47:26 They're big enough that I'll try to face it 1v1 with buffs but not enough for me to tele out 22:47:32 I think zot is still probably harder than depths if you actually clear all the vaults there 22:47:41 I don't know, it depends on the vaults 22:47:43 (depending on character; if my melee defenses aren't top-notch I will bail) 22:47:46 but of course there's no real need to clear zot 22:47:47 and depths vaults can be hard too 22:48:00 One big thing is there's no digging monster in Z 22:48:04 so you can just camp 22:48:07 I opened a door in depths once and had 10 caustic shrikes and a juggernaut come into view 22:48:08 In depths you will get dug out 22:48:16 <|amethyst> elliptic: could put Zot downstairs in "the last place you looked" 22:48:25 and I think shrikes, juggernauts, iron giants are tougher than anything but OOFs 22:48:30 tabstorm: another big thing is that you are usually several XLs higher in zot than in depths 22:48:30 that spawn in Z 22:48:33 with more loot 22:48:38 put all zot downstairs in vaults 22:48:46 <|amethyst> (I guess that's not really compatible with the possibility of disconnected levels) 22:48:57 Yeah, I don't really know what monsters you could place in Z to make them around the same difficulty 22:48:58 points being recycled very quickly, huh 22:49:02 I personally don't think digging monsters do a ton in terms of actually being threataning; they can punish lazy play more 22:49:09 gammafunk: yeah 22:49:28 I guess, I tend to do a lot of tunnel-camping on moderately strong chars 22:49:50 and in zot especially 22:49:53 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:06 probably in zot it has to do with all the summons 22:50:18 that are mostly not so dangerous but do take awhile to clean up 22:50:51 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick-data.h#L671 22:51:05 Do ancient lichs spawn normally on Z:1-4 outside vaults? 22:51:09 nope 22:51:18 Like, that would be a good spawn 22:51:18 anyway if zot is too easy nowadays when you get there I would attribute that to power creep - let's just nerf players a bit :P 22:51:21 -!- ZiBuDo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:41 Yeah, I was reading earlier about power creep and was trying to pin down what particular things made players that much stronger 22:51:44 and I'm skeptical that you would find it easier than depths if you went to zot with the same XL and items at which you enter depths 22:51:47 I think it was a combinatio of like 22:52:23 1. item dest reomval makes heavy armor more attractive, 2. enchant weapon dosen't fail any more, 3. arte body armor can't have negative enchant now 22:52:36 and 4. EV gain smoothing in heavy armor 22:52:43 and maybe str weight changes? I'm not sure 22:53:12 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:53:19 idk, it feels like the chars that are bad now are low str melee + midrange spell users 22:53:37 depending on which spells 22:54:00 I think my last two wins were that if fcloud/refrig count 22:54:28 yeah, last of those I played were on comborobin 22:54:41 it works, but it's harder than melee or pure conj i think 22:54:48 or even melee + summons 22:55:43 since you are weak in both spellpower and melee, vs. being able to button mash with melee or just hold down chain lightning 22:55:43 tabstorm: this sounds accurate, I think melee chars and dedicated conjurery chars have gotten the bulk of the buffs 22:55:54 yeah, I think dedicated conj is actually p. good 22:56:06 I just played a game with it, 60+ MP on a DE is quite good 22:56:14 I dont think I ever really trained melee, and it was totally fine 22:56:19 I feel like there's a bit of a weakpoint at around level 4-5 in regards to conjurations 22:56:23 -!- zxc has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:32 although most of that is revulsion at how bad lightning bolt is 22:56:35 <|amethyst> spell level or experience level? 22:56:40 Well, I would say 5-6th level spells have kind of been hollowed out 22:56:40 spell level 22:56:44 (certainly hybridy chars are still playable and winnable though) 22:56:44 er, 4-6 22:56:55 Yeah, you're just better going for summons or necromancy 22:57:02 I guess you always were, to be fair 22:57:08 (they haven't been particularly nerfed, just missed out on some of the buffs) 22:57:12 Yeah 22:57:23 summ/necr is always a more natural pairing with melee 22:57:32 the MP changes make late game better for dedicated conj for sure 22:57:43 though early game is a little weaker 22:57:44 I think stealth stabber types are a lot worse 22:57:57 stealth was nerfed yes 22:57:57 No more mass confuse, enslavement, invis is worse 22:58:05 also there is just more shouting now 22:58:14 Really? 22:58:18 Oh there was that one change 22:58:18 <|amethyst> and monsters don't go back to sleep 22:58:20 yeah 22:58:48 I never really thought stealth guys were that good unless you were a spriggan or vampire, but those were really good 22:59:11 Well they still are 22:59:11 though the hexes alone were good, esp. enslavement 22:59:34 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:35 Yeah, but compared to melee or dedicated conj... I would take either of those over a stealth stabber that isn't a spriggan 22:59:36 enslavement was never something that a hexer needed to use, and I think tukima's is a way better designed spell 22:59:47 Yeah, I'm only talking powerlevel here 23:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:03 enslavement was OP for sure, cast it once and something dies 23:00:10 at least one something 23:00:33 gammafunk: yeah, I think I like all the stealth/hex nerfs other than maybe the increased shouting (though I do understand that the old shouting behavior was bad in some ways) 23:00:45 -!- devlan2 is now known as DevlanMud 23:01:17 right, I find stealth based chars really playable, like even my DE with +3 stealth was good 23:01:28 and that's a weak species 23:01:35 What did you use for damage? 23:01:38 Conj, or stabbing 23:01:42 uh 23:01:46 !log . de won 23:01:47 2. gammafunk, XL25 DEEn, T:88567: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20160517-043055.txt 23:01:59 Like, I train stealth on chei speedruns for instance, but it's definitely not a stabbing build 23:02:01 in the endgame, summons 23:02:20 No. 1 recommendation of the hyperbolic guide... 23:02:30 looks like you used confuse a lot up to xl24 23:02:33 hmm, im not sure what the best way to make melee a little weaker would be 23:02:42 oh yeah, too much single target confuse 23:02:43 since i think its OK early on but a little too powerful in the late game 23:02:54 <|amethyst> tabstorm: elliptic pointed out one particular 3-year-old commit that could be reverted 23:03:02 I missed it, what was it 23:03:03 <|amethyst> tabstorm: that doubled the effect of stats on damage 23:03:04 gammafunk: DEEn was always secretly pretty good, people just didn't play it much because of all the other things DE can do 23:03:17 <|amethyst> tabstorm: (damage and to-hit) 23:03:29 that was 3 years ago? 23:03:38 Yeah I'm still pretty new to stabbers, they require more thought in general, so I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was 23:03:44 It feels like melee didn't become really good until around 0.16 23:03:45 thought the loss of move speed would make it onerous 23:03:51 <|amethyst> %git 23033c8 23:03:51 07galehar02 * 0.13-a0-1405-g23033c8: Double the effect of stats on melee. 10(3 years ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/23033c8a9bdd 23:03:55 was that 3 years ago? 23:03:58 nope 23:04:02 -!- RedFeather has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]] 23:04:05 man im bad at keeping track of time 23:04:21 i still feel like the itemdest change had a big effect in making heavy armor more attractive 23:04:37 I mean, everyone used MDA + ozocubu's in 0.13~ish vers 23:04:45 itemdest was by far mostly a convenience change 23:04:49 then that was nerfed 23:04:57 yeah, but with more evasion, you lost less potions and scrolls 23:05:08 maybe I'm delusional, idk 23:05:18 Well that's ok, those convenience differences being gone are fine imo 23:05:28 Since the inconvenience was deffo not worth keeping around 23:05:29 Were there any major commits around ~0.16 making melee better 23:05:32 |amethyst: I don't know if we necessarily need to fully revert it, but at least we could multiply the current bonus by 3/4 or something 23:05:50 <|amethyst> ??meleebug 23:05:50 meleebug[1/2]: The git commit e0bdd66 roughly doubled player melee damage. This was not fixed until around halfway through the 0.16 tournament. http://s-z.org/neil/images/logicbug.jpg 23:05:51 meleebug was 0.16 23:06:07 Wasn't that only around tournament time 23:06:16 <|amethyst> yeah 23:06:17 fwiw, I didn't really notice the melee bug until gammafunk told me about it 23:06:33 I was like "Oh, I guess that's just what being a DD w/ a holy exec will do..." 23:06:37 there could have been a lasting effect in player memory 23:06:46 even after they learned about the bug 23:06:49 but, in 0.16-a even I feel like melee was really good 23:06:54 i dont know 23:07:08 but yes I think melee was already good then 23:07:15 I think it has been good for a while :P 23:07:28 Yeah, mightve just been some bias w/ my own skill level increasing 23:07:32 given that my earliest 15-runers were berserkers with trog, I think melee was always good since crawl became playable (-dancing) 23:07:43 -!- Insomniak` has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:46 i think .16 is around when i started doing melee speedruns 23:09:08 Anyway, I think something like decreasing the damage bonus from stats a bit would be good 23:09:20 rip chei 23:09:31 I gave up on chei speedruns 23:09:37 too many restarts 23:09:57 more into realtime now 23:10:08 Also, think conj's powerlevel is probably ok 23:10:09 Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-526-gbe2e51c (34) 23:10:20 at least for dedicated conj.. maybe earth midgame is kind of mediocre 23:10:51 I never understood why people liked iron shot 23:11:01 dunno, has terrible accuracy 23:11:12 I try to get OOD or poison arrow instead 23:11:42 also, ranged is going to get nerfed to hell in 0.19, right? 23:12:03 don't bring up that topic, Lightli is in the channel 23:12:13 gammafunk: :v 23:12:21 (I laughed at that comment) 23:12:38 ??plan 23:12:38 plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:release_plans 23:12:44 -!- Jafet has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.5] 23:12:53 Lightli: be the change you wish to see in the world 23:12:55 look up the .18 ranged combat reform 23:13:20 Lightli learns C++ to save ranged, what a heroic and inspiring story... 23:13:35 also wrt hybrid-y chars I think remvoing phase shift + upping level of shadow creatures was semi-relevant 23:13:38 such oh gods, the future versions page 23:13:58 yeah my concern about the loss of phase+ozo is the quality of life of those lower AC chars and advanced form users 23:13:59 mentions of mumra 23:14:00 since theres less incentive to invest in those schools, due to there being a big XP gap between 5 and 6 23:14:21 at least there was at some poit 23:14:36 but the downsides of keeping those in their previous forms is not worth it, I guess 23:14:42 and, I feel like people don't learn spell haste as often... I can't remember the last time I learned it on a char that wasn't high-int 23:15:00 I can confirm that ozo's armour is still very good at least, even with the move delay penalty 23:15:02 the haste spell is much more rare these days 23:15:04 -!- destroythecore has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:14 yeah, ozos is still good 23:15:33 Unless you're in early D 1.1 move is basically irrelevant, I think 23:15:53 it isn't irrelevant, but neither is 13 AC 23:16:00 ??ozocubu's_armour 23:16:00 ozocubu's armour[1/1]: Level 3 charms/ice spell that gives you more AC. Usable with armour ER < 5. Slows your movement by 1 aut/move while active. 23:16:03 yeah, I have trouble convincing people that ponderous items are often worth it 23:16:07 depending what you had 23:16:17 i wear the hat of pondering when i find it most of the time 23:16:20 I also wear plates of pondering 23:16:22 -!- Taraiph has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:31 hat of pondering is pretty bad still IMO, it doesn't do much 23:16:33 if its +8 or whatever 23:16:59 eh, I like MP+10 int+5 or if you're a minotaur and won't be doing a whole lot of running away 23:17:13 gives you free int to use those -int artes.. 23:17:16 it also makes charging towards things take longer 23:17:33 or stepping around a corner 23:17:33 3 AC, MR, and two more spells to blast things can compare pretty well with a +0 hat at least 23:17:40 hmm.. maybe i havent been playing enough bad chars recently 23:17:51 I think on a bad char I wouldn't use it 23:17:58 clearly the real melee problem is gargoyles and minotaurs :P 23:18:19 plate of ponderousness is very often worth it for at least a good chunk of the game after you find it 23:18:19 Minotaurs are a lot better than gargoyles imo 23:18:27 <|amethyst> do minotaurs actually need retaliatory headbutt? 23:18:36 Probably not, but it's cool 23:18:44 rip chei, again 23:18:45 I like headbutt, yeah 23:19:02 I think Mi is good for a simple, easy-mode race 23:19:03 zxc: yeah, I can imagine... I seem to only find it when I have +6 plate of rF+ or CPA already but I would use it if it was a major upgrade 23:19:03 -!- VoxSomniator has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:05 and cna be fun for speedruns 23:19:06 (it's quote unquote okay to have easier options, so I wouldn't point fingers at given races) 23:19:22 well, the game is as easy or hard as you want it to be 23:19:25 to some extent 23:20:07 if you tab minotaurs instead of using your 2 wands of haste or casting ozos, the game is pretty hard :( 23:20:25 If minotaurs are too easy, just skip more of the game 23:20:29 or dont train weapon skill :) 23:20:42 or try to win in under 40mins 23:20:44 I was baffled that you started axe for that experiment 23:20:50 y? 23:20:51 getting that free skill 23:20:53 oh 23:21:03 i didn't actually think of that when i started 23:21:25 I don't think it matters that much, weapon skill seems to have almost no effect on accuracy except against high-ev enemies 23:21:36 most things seem to have single-digit EV 23:21:48 that char was pretty iffy in zot:5 though 23:22:13 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:17 -!- Mekire has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:27:18 I always found it annoying how enemy EV was at it's highest in the early game 23:28:39 -!- wheals_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:46 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:28 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:29 The build was broken. (master - 4eae7fd #5796 : Neil Moore): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/135755891 23:30:29 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev 23:32:29 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:56 -!- mamgar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:28 !seen chequers 23:33:28 PleasingFungus: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 23:33:28 I last saw chequers at Tue Jun 7 03:12:53 2016 UTC (20m 34s ago) saying 'Lightli: be the change you wish to see in the world' on ##crawl-dev. 23:34:05 chequers: getting a different message for changing your ancestor's gender vs not is a feature, not a bug! 23:34:13 it is, in fact, a J'oke 23:35:18 -!- Jafet has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:19 hi 23:36:29 PleasingFungus: i just think it's bad ux 23:36:39 howso? 23:36:41 PleasingFungus: ancestor's description makes it sound ghostly/insubstantial, it probably should be immune to sticky flame (and if it already is, it shouldn't spam the mottled drac player) 23:36:49 i saw your message yes 23:36:50 -!- Harudoku has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:36:52 haven't investigated yet 23:36:54 but it's on my list 23:36:58 oh I already said that? sorry 23:37:01 like, there should be one response to both questions 23:37:02 yeah a couple days ago 23:37:08 chequers: why? 23:37:11 I'm sorry chequers, I don't think I've got the energy left to reallly finish up the gauntlet drafts 23:37:42 when the gender doesn't finish, the ancestor identity interaction ends with "ok then" even if the ancestor name changed 23:38:17 If the name has changed, the ancestor has a new identity, and it's not a no-op to specify their gender as what their previous identity used to be 23:38:32 also PF: helpawhatever is pretty cool 23:38:32 *when the gender doesn't change 23:38:39 i am playing him rn 23:38:56 tabstorm: cool! chosen an ancestor type/specialization yet? 23:39:01 yea im doing hexes 23:39:04 regret-index: rip. can you talk about what work remains / problems you see? 23:39:09 heh 23:39:17 maybe later ill try knight, I think hexer at least is top tier 23:39:18 nice meme ancestor... 23:39:21 ??gauntlet[2] 23:39:21 gauntlet[2/2]: todo: gilded inferno tile, visible -TELE status (and make -TELE not effect blinking?), no monsters talking through glass, wall-lowering-based layouts, uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere? awaken / paralyze opposition based on teleport use? you_teleport_to only blinking displaced monsters? (constriction issues) 23:39:35 heard knights damage is not so good though, not sure about battlemage 23:39:37 <|amethyst> huh 23:39:43 <|amethyst> that last travis error is a new one 23:39:48 <|amethyst> floating point exception in ouch 23:39:49 what is gauntlet? 23:40:02 yeah, knight isn't gonna do crazy damage unless idealise is toggled on 23:40:04 !learn edit gauntlet[2] s|uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsehwere?|| 23:40:05 No change: regex `uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsehwere?` does not match `todo: gilded inferno tile, visible -TELE status (and make -TELE not effect blinking?), no monsters talking through glass, wall-lowering-based layouts, uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere? awaken / paralyze opposition based on teleport use? you_teleport_to only blinking ... 23:40:23 uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere <-- like, allow uniques in gauntlet, but since there are multiple paths you need to tleport them around? 23:40:25 chequers: idk, i consider the name change to be separate from the gender change 23:40:26 <|amethyst> oh, I guess you.hp_max is 0 somehow 23:40:31 so i guess that's where we part ways 23:40:43 just some very old portal vault draft between wizlabs and zigs 23:40:59 not that old, surely 23:41:05 2012! 23:41:26 what is gilded inferno tile for? 23:41:34 portal entrance 23:41:39 dang 23:41:41 ah, right 23:42:18 how do you feel about the loot & monster situation 23:43:46 things I could tweak for ages if not for all those framework blocking bits, so whatever 23:44:40 framework-blocking = you think some of the todo stuff is more important? 23:44:58 tbh looking at the todo, only visible -TELE status really strikes me as important 23:45:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:45:54 I don't want to push without at least two seperate gimmicks for the portal, so the wall-lowering stuff is also needed 23:46:19 alright 23:48:31 man, profane servitors look ugly in the gauntlet 23:48:44 is that what you were saying about stopping umbra/halo at glass? 23:49:15 that they're fine with glass but falter on permarock because of zigsprint, yeah 23:49:15 -!- oxeimon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:38 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:50:37 ah, it's used in zigsprint is it 23:53:02 holy set, abyss set 23:53:29 heh 23:53:53 an innovative suggestion wrt the ancient cry for an acid dragon: make mottled dragons acid instead of sticky flame 23:54:35 one less draconian colour... 23:55:04 also buffs zot since sticky flame doesn't matter past earlygame, sounds good 23:55:41 heh, i hadn't even considered draconians 23:56:02 how would wall lowering work? you still have the teleporter, but it just removes the wall section instead? 23:56:03 ...oh, I didn't even read acid _dragon_ 23:56:04 mottled draconians are the worst out of them anyways; sticky flame breath being still range 1 is horrid 23:56:09 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:28 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:53 we are getting acid dragons now? 23:56:53 acid dragons were clearly the pride of the lost civilization before the slimes invaded and mutated them into acid blobs anyway 23:57:01 sad! 23:57:04 hm, one other todo is marking teleporters as hazardous terrain, so people stop accidentally walking on them 23:57:05 might be kool, what branch 23:57:09 note: people = me 23:57:10 uh 23:57:12 the irc discussion branch 23:57:18 also the something awful forums thread branch 23:57:18 oh smh 23:57:33 sticky flame is relevant vs sheep 23:57:40 chequers: wall-lowering should be... well, let me finish this up. 23:57:46 -!- sgun_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:57:47 fwiw i think new!corr is a good thing, works well in depths 23:57:54 sticky flame is really strong 23:57:58 against monsters 23:58:03 !source _check_moveto_dangerous 23:58:03 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#l212 23:58:36 pairs of pressure plates corresponding to wall segments that remove the other plate in the pair and create the next pair of pressure plates, essentially 23:58:53 (uh, and removing their corresponding walls) 23:59:04 ah, Hardcore Lua 23:59:16 yes 23:59:19 ??gauntlet 23:59:19 gauntlet[1/2]: Experimental late timed portal, %git gauntlet, needs map submissions, tiles, general clean-up. Appears in Elf, Vaults, Crypt, Depths: not enough threatening portals that late. Permarock/glass structures, demons watching, a few teleporter choices of fights: contents thoroughly mix Lair branches, Elf, Crypt, Depths, Hells, Pan. 23:59:30 ??gauntlet[2 23:59:30 gauntlet[2/2]: todo: gilded inferno tile, visible -TELE status (and make -TELE not effect blinking?), no monsters talking through glass, wall-lowering-based layouts, uniques placement that allows unslain uniques to place elsewhere? awaken / paralyze opposition based on teleport use? you_teleport_to only blinking displaced monsters? (constriction issues) 23:59:46 !source you_teleport_to 23:59:46 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc#l595