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Shame on us, for what we've done, and all we ever were, just zeros and ones.] 01:53:17 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.17-a0-1651-gae1a69f 01:54:59 -!- mibe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:57:22 -!- Guest48876 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:51 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:08:59 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:11:08 -!- Undo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:31 -!- halberd has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:24:44 Xenophilius (L27 GrFi) ASSERT(is_valid_feature_type(feat)) in 'feature.cc' at line 227 failed. (Geh:6) 02:26:21 -!- yottam has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:30:08 -!- Gorgo_ has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:35:32 -!- Undo has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:40:44 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:47:28 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 02:48:58 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.17-a0-1651-gae1a69f 02:54:10 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:24 -!- FourHTwoA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:09 -!- agentgt has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:56 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:07:01 -!- kazimuth has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 03:13:17 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.17-a0-1651-gae1a69f (34) 03:21:46 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:39:58 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:40 -!- FourHTwoA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:41:43 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:38 -!- digitCruncher has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:57:15 -!- vale_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:02 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 04:09:55 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:11:04 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [] 04:18:48 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:28 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: RIP] 04:22:07 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:23:46 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:47 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:37 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:59 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 04:34:51 -!- wat has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:35:04 -!- Wahaha has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:20 -!- P_R_Deltoid has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:49:29 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:53:42 -!- Tags has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:58:21 -!- oho_hups has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00:03 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:07 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:16:48 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:32 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:10 -!- pikaro has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:53:27 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:17 -!- oho_hups has quit [Client Quit] 06:05:58 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:07:53 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:12:03 -!- rophy has quit [Quit: Miranda NG! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-ng.org/] 06:27:40 -!- yottam has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:30:32 -!- oho_hups has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:31:17 -!- hoho_ups has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:18 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:44 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:52:40 -!- stickup has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:30 -!- Tags has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:24 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:03:10 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:10 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 08:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:51 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:04:09 -!- Foamed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:14:03 -!- Foamed has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:24:23 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:19 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:55:33 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:55:46 -!- tealeaves has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:49 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:39 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:04:10 -!- joke_LA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:10:50 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:37 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:11:54 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:18:23 -!- tealeaves has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:24:15 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:35:22 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 09:37:14 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:11 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:21 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:50 http://i.imgur.com/LTzq2DP.gifv 09:47:55 I confused mplayer. 09:49:40 TZer0: is that disco pan?! 09:50:25 -!- bOtbrAd has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:50:36 gammafunk: close enough. 09:52:00 gammafunk: actually, this is DF. 09:52:14 seem legit. 09:52:17 *seems 09:53:09 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:57:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:13 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:09:26 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:11:52 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:13:23 -!- wat has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:16:05 -!- pikaro has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:16 -!- rophy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:47 -!- stickup has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:14 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:35:21 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:47:33 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:05 -!- read has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:31 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:45 -!- read has quit [Changing host] 10:48:46 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:03 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:54:19 -!- Kramin42 has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:56:52 -!- BOTBrad has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:09 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 10:58:50 -!- BOTBrad has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:03 -!- BOTBrad has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:07 -!- pikaro has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:35 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:30 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 11:17:51 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:17:57 Lasty_: I blame you for this almost amazing DeSu robe! +0 robe of the Shining Light {rElec rF+ MP+9 Str-5} 11:18:03 It game me str 0!!!! 11:18:06 *gave 11:18:52 guess I could level str by one and live in constant fear of things with brain feed 11:20:00 those don't drain str 11:20:14 i'm not sure what does really apart from statrot/necro miscasts 11:20:26 hrm, really? 11:20:29 yes 11:20:34 brain feed noms your brain (int) 11:20:34 it's only int... 11:20:38 hrm 11:20:49 quasits eat your dex and I think ghost moths too 11:20:50 @?? ghost moth 11:20:51 ghost moth (06y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 13 | HP: 58-88 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 1802(drain stat), 1802(drain stat), 1204(strong poison:47-84) | fly | Res: 06magic(100), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1695 | Sp: draining gaze [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: brainless. 11:20:55 oh, it's any stat 11:21:00 oh, I see 11:21:08 that's not too bad then 11:21:44 Good roleplaying as the most physically inept mage possible 11:22:00 who needs swords when you have mindbullets 11:22:59 mind...quokkas 11:29:35 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:15 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:51:24 -!- radinms_ has quit [] 12:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:49 -!- dannit_jol has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:04:03 -!- melenkurio has quit [Client Quit] 12:05:58 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:11:38 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:26 -!- Blazinghand has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:26 -!- Wah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:53 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:28:25 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:17 -!- omarax has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:53:23 -!- ystael has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:56:54 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59:48 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:50 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:03:48 -!- alvarops has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:43 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 13:10:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:50 -!- CacoS is now known as CcS 13:30:15 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:31:15 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:48 gammafunk: you're welcome! 13:36:36 you're speedrunning, right? be at 0 str 13:36:47 you'll summon things, and then wait for them to finish up twice as efficiently 13:37:01 Think of all the turns you'll save! 13:39:09 quasits are any stat too i think 13:39:16 @??quasit 13:39:16 quasit (155) | Spd: 13 | HD: 3 | HP: 7-23 | AC/EV: 5/17 | Dam: 305(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity) | 05demonic, 10doors | Res: 06magic(10), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 45 | Sz: small | Int: human. 13:39:20 but no, it's not 13:41:27 -!- CcS has quit [] 13:41:37 -!- filthy has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:42:32 no, but since any stat can drain any three stats quasits compensate by draining your dex three times! 13:44:57 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:51 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:10 Lasty_: the regen... 13:48:46 oh that's good to know, re. quasits 13:48:50 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 13:50:46 -!- Laptop is now known as Guest25785 13:57:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:30 -!- Guest25785 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:18 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:04:35 -!- ktgrey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:24 -!- vale__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:07:16 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:11:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:03 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:12:55 -!- buki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:38 At damage 3, 2, 2 it's surprising to me that quasits ever hurt people with > 5 ac 14:17:44 being fast helps 14:18:09 lots of attacks and eache on procs every turn 14:18:20 -!- buki has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:18:20 *each one 14:19:31 I thought all the real damage was the draining, with the physical attack just to allow the draining to happen (since iirc it requires some amount of physical damage) 14:21:27 <|amethyst> geekosaur: it has to do >0 damage for the drain stat to proc 14:21:34 <|amethyst> !source _flavour_triggers_damageless 14:21:35 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc#l310 14:22:28 <|amethyst> geekosaur: I mean, has to do >0 damage after applying AC 14:23:08 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:24:19 -!- tcsc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:25:56 right, that was my point 14:26:29 so it does piddling physical damage so the drain can happen, and the drain is the real damage 14:27:00 (for why the damage is only 3+2+2) 14:27:31 <|amethyst> geekosaur: right, Lasty was saying it was surprising any of that 3/2/2 ever gets through AC for characters wearing armour 14:28:31 <|amethyst> and gammafunk was saying that its speed and number of attacks helped that happen by giving your AC more chances to roll zero 14:29:08 <|amethyst> though I wonder 14:29:16 <|amethyst> !lg * killer=quasit x=ktyp 14:29:17 1838. [ktyp=mon] braveplatypus the Ducker (L1 FeAK of Lugonu), slain by a quasit on Abyss:1 on 2015-08-14 07:18:38, with 0 points after 240 turns and 0:00:25. 14:29:19 <|amethyst> !lg * killer=quasit s=ktyp 14:29:19 1838 games for * (killer=quasit): 1828x mon, 10x beam 14:29:30 <|amethyst> !lg * killer=quasit x=max(ac) 14:29:31 1838 games for * (killer=quasit): max(ac)=53 14:29:41 <|amethyst> !lg * killer=quasit max=ac -log 14:29:42 1838. dscm, XL21 GrFi, T:62095: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/dscm/morgue-dscm-20131015-073423.txt 14:30:04 <|amethyst> killstealing quasit 14:30:29 <|amethyst> 62094 | Elf:3 | HP: 1/140 [reaper/runed scythe[a deep elf demonologist] (15)] 14:30:32 <|amethyst> 62095 | Elf:3 | Slain by a quasit 14:30:41 <|amethyst> (1 damage) 14:32:29 -!- daiy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:38:05 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:44 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40:55 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:43:36 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:17 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:53:09 -!- Bcadren_ is now known as Bcadren 14:54:24 -!- agent is now known as agentgt 14:56:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:52 !lg * recent killer=quasit 14:58:53 590. braveplatypus the Ducker (L1 FeAK of Lugonu), slain by a quasit on Abyss:1 on 2015-08-14 07:18:38, with 0 points after 240 turns and 0:00:25. 14:59:06 !lg * recent killer=crimson_imp 14:59:07 929. asdu the Spear-Bearer (L7 MfBe of Trog), blasted by a crimson imp (wand of draining) on D:6 on 2015-08-14 18:15:47, with 537 points after 1290 turns and 0:07:28. 15:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:34 -!- FourHTwoA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:53 -!- falu has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2] 15:09:31 -!- Utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:01 !lg * killer=quasit max=xl x=dam 15:12:02 1838. [dam=1] patman the Warrior (L22 CeCK of Xom), slain by a quasit (summoned by Xom) on Vaults:5 (vaults_vault; vaults_end_classical_cross) on 2015-06-06 05:24:32, with 430456 points after 56487 turns and 4:16:28. 15:12:58 !lg * killer=quasit max=sdam x=sdam 15:12:59 1838. [sdam=46] ChaosMind the Skirmisher (L5 DsCK of Xom), blasted by a quasit (exploding inner flame) on D:5 on 2014-04-04 11:10:50, with 243 points after 1638 turns and 0:22:12. 15:13:04 !lg * killer=quasit max=sdam x=sdam ktyp=mon 15:13:05 1828. [sdam=9] heteroy the Skirmisher (L4 MuCK of Xom), slain by a quasit (summoned by Xom) on D:2 on 2012-03-21 08:34:03, with 1558 points after 41819 turns and 0:20:37. 15:13:17 terrible, terrible damage 15:13:22 huge dmg 15:16:47 -!- Kadarus has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:17:12 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:25:27 -!- Utrick has quit [Quit: Utrick] 15:31:12 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:38:51 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:33 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:49 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:43 -!- tcsc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:50:19 -!- lessens has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:51:53 -!- Guest25785 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:56:18 -!- FourHTwoA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:56:34 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:50 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:55 -!- Lasty_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:01 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:34 -!- Guest-Flambingo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:06:46 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:12:05 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15:04 -!- beogh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:18:15 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:49 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:37:30 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:39:20 -!- Insomniak has quit [Quit: I like to rock] 16:41:32 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:29 -!- urechis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:38 -!- Prozacelf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:27 -!- agentgt has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:30 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:56:47 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:25 -!- Ghostofcrawlerpa has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:57:50 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:58:53 -!- Guest25785 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:32 -!- rhayde` is now known as daiy 17:01:55 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:56 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 17:07:15 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:10:33 -!- Tags has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:12:16 Oh Sacrifice and Eye still lacks a tile 17:13:15 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:18:43 so apparently a randart can have *corrode _and rCorr. would this be considered a bug? 17:18:48 example: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Vall/Vall.txt 17:19:07 or is rCorr only a chance to block it 17:19:50 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:15 -!- Cacophony has quit [Quit: oh no am scare] 17:26:03 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:29:02 yeah, I think that's been brought up before 17:29:30 rcorr is only a chance regardless of source 17:29:42 it does something sometimes and at other times it does absolutely nothing 17:31:17 <|amethyst> oh also 17:32:02 <|amethyst> oh, nm 17:32:43 <|amethyst> I was going to say that we prevent putting *Contam on an amulet of rMut but not on other randarts with rMut; but we don't generate rMut on randarts 17:32:54 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:33:24 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:33:50 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:00 <|amethyst> we do generate rCorr, though, so we'd need two checks in _randart_is_conflicting 17:35:43 <|amethyst> one for proprt[ARTP_RCORR] && proprt[ARTP_CORRODE] (near the top, before the non-jewellery early return), and one in the switch for case AMU_RESIST_CORROSION: conflicts = ARTP_CORRODE; break; 17:36:56 -!- tcsc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:38:05 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:45:06 -!- sinusoidal has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:45:25 -!- BOTBrad has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:50 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:37 -!- Gorgo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:53:14 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 17:55:50 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:06 !learn set lasty_to_do ranged reform; redo throwing; add AF_HUNGER to death cobs and set all AF_HUNGER to not require damage 18:03:07 lasty to do[1/12]: ranged reform; redo throwing; add AF_HUNGER to death cobs and set all AF_HUNGER to not require damage 18:03:53 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 18:04:12 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 18:04:28 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:48 -!- read has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:12 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:48 -!- daagar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:19 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:12:40 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:13:38 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:14:02 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:14:15 -!- Suga_H has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:56 -!- tealeaves has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:58 so hey, let's talk about Throwing. Right now it's crazy strong, since UC-style damage with big bonuses at a range is really good. The two questions are 1) does it make sense to keep it as a UC-style damage model instead of a weapon-style one, and 2) what's a reasonable range for Throwing damage to span? 18:20:25 don't touch my infinite ammo los range punching! 18:20:51 infinite ammo los range claws 10 punching even 18:23:13 -!- dang_it has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:23:44 -!- kuniqs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:24:50 -!- joke_LA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:15 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:26:48 stupid question: What's the difference between UC-style damage and weapon-style? 18:27:25 In my (obviously uninformed) opinion, weapon-style is more intuitive, as you are throwing a weapon. But see above stupid question. 18:28:39 plathrop: in UC-style damage, base damage increases with skill and delay goes down by 1 aut per 5.4 skill. In weapon-style, base damage is multiplied by a factor based on weapon skill and delay goes down by 1 aut per 2 skill up to a specific minimum delay. 18:28:57 Lasty: is this question being answered assuming the current ammo system? 18:29:02 gammafunk: yes 18:29:13 Ranged reform is still a ways off due to my laziness/busyness 18:30:18 well throws has a non-trivial ammo requirement; launcher ammo becomes functionally infinite after not too long 18:30:31 s/throws/throwing/ 18:30:59 Throwing usually has infinite ammo; even tomahawks are pretty fabulous damage 18:31:28 yeah, but this isn't true of top-tier ammo, but I think you're right that the damage of tomahawks is quite high 18:31:38 To me, what feels intuitive, is weapon-style damage scaling, and unarmed-style delay :-) 18:31:49 I guess a more weapon-style system where delay was a factor in the ammo and perhaps the damage was systematically lower? 18:32:26 I'm leaning in that direction 18:32:37 I suppose the fundamentally interesting thing about throwing relative to launchers is that ammo limitations are more real 18:32:38 Balance-wise, throwing definitely does too much damage 18:32:38 i think that throwing vs bow seems reasonable as a player 18:33:07 crossbow seems kind of weak, and sling seems very weak 18:33:08 to me 18:33:14 there's also the blowgun factor 18:33:16 I like crossbow actually 18:33:34 oh yeah, it might be worth doing blowgun reform before I get to ranged reform in general... 18:33:37 xbow does pretty good damage from what I can tell; I never really play ranged chars 18:33:40 ranged reform in general is so scary to me 18:33:42 xbow is powerful, but only certain guys can use it 18:33:47 so many touchpoints 18:33:54 I'm gonna break so much 18:33:59 !lg * skill=bows 18:34:00 73317. gp7 the Shooter (L5 HEHu of Elyvilon), slain by an iguana on D:4 on 2015-08-14 21:00:27, with 169 points after 3949 turns and 0:55:54. 18:34:20 !lg . skill=bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won s=char 18:34:21 2 games for gammafunk (skill=bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won): KoEn, CeAM 18:34:28 !lg . skill=bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won s=char,skill 18:34:29 2 games for gammafunk (skill=bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won): CeAM (Throwing), KoEn (Crossbows) 18:34:54 !lg * skills15~~bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won 18:34:55 Unknown field: skills15 18:34:58 !lg * skill15~~bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won 18:34:59 Unknown field: skill15 18:35:02 15skills 18:35:08 !lg * 15skills~~bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won 18:35:09 Broken query near '~~bows|crossbows|throwing|slings won' 18:35:18 yeah it doesn't like | in regexp does it 18:35:22 yeah 18:35:28 !lg * 15skills~~'(bows|crossbows|throwing|slings)' won 18:35:29 Broken query near '~~'(bows|crossbows|throwing|slings)' won' 18:36:03 you could probably just adjust down damage, yeah 18:36:05 !apt throwing 18:36:06 Throw: Ha: 3!, Ko: 3!, Ce: 3!, Sp: 1, Te: 1, Og: 1, HE: 1, DE: 1, Mi: 0, Gr: 0, Op: 0, Hu: 0, HO: 0, Mf: 0, Fe: N/A, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, Na: -1, Dr: -1, DD: -1, VS: -1, Tr: -1, Ds: -1, Fo: -2*, Mu: -2*, Vp: -2* 18:36:19 !apt bows 18:36:19 Bows: Ce: 3!, HE: 3!, Sp: 2, Ha: 2, DE: 1, Te: 1, Mi: 1, Fe: N/A, Hu: 0, Op: 0, Gr: 0, Ko: -1, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, VS: -1, Ds: -1, HO: -1, Na: -1, Dr: -1, Mf: -2, Vp: -2, Mu: -2, Fo: -2, Og: -3, DD: -3, Tr: -4* 18:38:05 Or you could just remove throwing? #sorta-half-joking 18:39:31 -!- geekosaur has quit [Excess Flood] 18:39:49 -!- geekosaur has joined ##crawl-dev 18:51:06 -!- tealeaves has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:54:51 -!- Bcadren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:51 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:55:46 -!- tealeaves has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58:00 -!- MgDark_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:59:32 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:03 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:02 -!- Tags has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:04:09 -!- stanzill has quit [Quit: au rev] 19:04:26 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:04:27 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 19:08:48 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08:58 -!- MgDark__ is now known as MgDark 19:11:57 -!- MgDark_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:18:42 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:18:46 -!- MgDark_ is now known as MgDark 19:19:24 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:22 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 19:24:03 -!- Earlo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:28 -!- tealeaves has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:35 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:10 -!- tealeaves has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:06 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:48 03|amethyst02 07* 0.17-a0-1652-g781fe90: Let Sacrifice Experience drop the player below XL 27 (#9895) 10(84 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/781fe902fd6c 19:45:48 03|amethyst02 07* 0.17-a0-1653-gcd515fc: Fix existing saves with XL > maxXL (#9895) 10(76 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cd515fc615c0 19:45:51 -!- predator217 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:46:47 <|amethyst> hm... I guess I should have gotten around to fixing that before 0.16.2 release 19:46:56 <|amethyst> hadn't realised it was relevant to 0.16, but looks so 19:54:01 well I kept delaying that 19:54:12 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.16] * 0.16.2-1-g864ea8f: Let Sacrifice Experience drop the player below XL 27 (#9895) 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/864ea8ffa348 19:54:12 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.16] * 0.16.2-2-g470672f: Fix existing saves with XL > maxXL (#9895) 10(84 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/470672f13fb5 19:54:16 is it actually bad if you cherry pick ..oh 19:54:18 well never mind 19:54:37 I guess we don't have to do 0.16.3 19:55:26 I suppose if we have making package source and making windows zips and installers fully automated on cdo like was discussed there'd be a lower bar to making point releases 19:55:31 but there's still os x and android 19:55:39 well and debian, that's a fairly big one 19:55:53 |amethyst: oh shoot, I saw your message about that, but then I forgot before acting on it 19:55:54 I'm sorry 19:56:05 debian could also be done on cdo but that's probably a lot of setup for napkin 19:56:39 <|amethyst> just means we'll need a 0.16.3 when we release 0.17 :) 19:56:39 <|amethyst>  19:56:39 <|amethyst> lag 19:56:47 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:56:56 is something up w/ your network? CSZO keeps dropping me 19:57:24 <|amethyst> maybe something with their upstream? 19:58:03 <|amethyst> packets were being dropped between 38.104.182.46 (cogent) and 208.75.225.51 (tulix), neither of which is my ISP 19:58:28 <|amethyst> (then again, could by my ISP publishing bad BGP) 19:58:47 <|amethyst> Lasty: turns out the error wasn't what I thought at first anyway 19:59:04 <|amethyst> Lasty: which made it much simpler to fix :) 19:59:42 yeah people have been reporting problems on cszo 20:00:01 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:03 but it's been fine for me 20:01:48 I was thinking about moving weapon bless/gift prayer to an ability that blesses the weapon and creates an altar at the player's present location 20:02:17 I think the only issue is the fiddling when features exist on the player's location 20:02:21 does it come with an "altar falling from the sky" animation and a *thump* sound 20:02:32 that would be sweet 20:02:42 we do need more animations in crawl 20:03:30 -!- joke_LA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:32 maybe there's no real issue with changing the feature type 20:04:33 <|amethyst> gammafunk: just make it work only on floor 20:04:48 yeah, certainly a good approach 20:05:06 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:11 <|amethyst> that's how call merchant works when the merchant branches are full 20:05:13 since if you can e.g. change an altar from one god to another people will talk about "there should be god wrath" etc 20:05:23 ah good, and that's probably code I can read as well 20:05:42 heh, well of course I can read it, unless it's written in eldritch c++ 20:05:47 <|amethyst> that one's a little more complicated than yours will be 20:05:48 -!- Shinino has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:13 <|amethyst> since with call merchant that is handled in setup, long before the shop actually gets placed 20:06:32 good to know 20:10:09 "Zin refuses to speak to you on this unholy staircase" 20:11:04 I'm telling you, Zin is just a downer 20:11:27 The Shining One's altar plunges into the murky depths with a great splash of water! 20:12:15 "You will pay for your transgression, mortal!" 20:12:47 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:13:20 perhaps we can move xom gifts into the a menu as well, each one requiring the creation of a new altar 20:13:30 makes filling every free tile with xom altars more possible 20:16:20 Zin has always hated stairs 20:16:44 !lg devteamnp god=zin won s=name 20:16:46 39 games for devteamnp (god=zin won): 21x 78291, 5x MarvinPA, 3x Lasty, 2x Medar, SGrunt, rob, dpeg, Sage, pointless, bh, elliptic, gammafunk 20:16:47 Xom should just turn random non-stair terrain into Xom altars 20:16:55 he already does that 20:17:09 Lasty: also a crucial nerf to mummy xomscumming in sewers. eventually you run out of tiles to put altars on, and then you have to play crawl 20:17:20 list of names with only one zin win isn't surprising, but 5 by MPA is maybe a bit surprising 20:17:31 !lg . zin won 20:17:31 No games for kvaak (zin won). 20:17:34 heh 20:17:38 !lg kvaak won s=god 20:17:39 88 games for kvaak (won): 27x Ashenzari, 20x Okawaru, 7x Cheibriados, 6x Lugonu, 5x Makhleb, 3x Trog, 3x Ru, 2x Jiyva, 2x Beogh, 2x Vehumet, 2x Gozag, 2x Xom, The Shining One, Sif Muna, , Kikubaaqudgha, Qazlal, Yredelemnul, Nemelex Xobeh 20:17:45 ...ash..interesting 20:17:51 wow and 7x chei 20:18:18 !log . fo won chei 20:18:19 2. perunasaurus, XL27 FoEn, T:64387: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.15/perunasaurus/morgue-perunasaurus-20140901-120746.txt 20:18:22 er 20:18:27 !lg . fo won chei -2 20:18:28 1/2. perunasaurus the Ticktocktomancer (L27 FoTm of Cheibriados), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-08-05 17:48:39, with 1853275 points after 55530 turns and 4:08:42. 20:18:30 gotta have two of these 20:18:33 because reasons 20:18:49 oh, I wanted to make Fo not meld shields in the forms 20:18:54 I didn't hear any objections to that 20:19:21 but maybe there are good reasons not to? 20:19:36 it just seems consistent to me with how we do jewelry 20:19:40 for octopodes, I mean 20:20:16 <|amethyst> You mean, allowing Fo to wear shields in forms that can't normally wear shields? 20:20:20 yes 20:20:38 glorious shield dragons 20:20:42 <|amethyst> shield bat 20:20:49 heh 20:20:59 now just give dragonform lances too 20:21:06 shield dragon won't stop me from having arguments with people about statue form vs. dragon form, sadly 20:21:10 <|amethyst> how is that consistent with jewellery? 20:21:26 well we don't meld jewellery for octopodes 20:21:46 I'm thinking of good forms specifically, not bad forms 20:21:49 I actually don't know what we do there 20:22:03 -!- fiddlerwoaroof has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:22:39 shields are not jewellery, I guess, and other species-specific mutations like VS bite attacks..actually I'm not even sure what happens with this 20:22:44 <|amethyst> we do meld OP jewellery in forms that can't wear jewellery 20:22:54 <|amethyst> e.g. pigform 20:23:07 <|amethyst> and wisp 20:23:15 <|amethyst> (which are both badforms, granted) 20:23:31 <|amethyst> but no goodforms meld jewellery 20:24:04 yeah, I'm more concerned with forms that affect gameplay significantly, but you're right that there is a consistent reasoning of "if you allow any of this thing equipped, don't make the species wear less of it than it normally can" 20:24:20 and that statement should be 20:24:32 "if you allow any of this to be unmelded in the form, ..." 20:25:19 <|amethyst> yeah 20:25:51 <|amethyst> a better parallel to the OP thing would be that, if a Fo turns into a form that can use a shield and weapon, it should continue to be able to use a shield and 2H weapon in that form 20:25:52 but it seems bad to me that Fo get an equipment penalty for using good forms that other species don't 20:25:55 <|amethyst> which I think is the case 20:26:28 <|amethyst> I don't think that's any worse than humans getting a bigger equipment penalty for good forms than spriggans do 20:26:39 <|amethyst> since humans have more armour slots than spriggans 20:26:57 <|amethyst> and humans lose the use of bardiches in non-wielding forms, while spriggans do not 20:27:06 that's true, but it's a question of the significance of that loss 20:27:21 comparing the defensive value of a shield to that of a couple aux slots 20:27:24 !apt fo 20:27:25 Fo: Fighting: 1, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: 1, Bows: -2, Xbows: 0, Throw: -2*, Armour: 1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 3, Shields: 2!, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: -1, Hexes: 2, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: 1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 3!, Inv: 2, Evo: 1, Exp: 1!, HP: 0, MP: 0 20:27:29 <|amethyst> err 20:27:36 <|amethyst> Fo aren't the only race that wear shields 20:28:05 <|amethyst> Hm 20:28:13 well my statement wasn't about that: an fo should nearly always use a shield in melee (except for Tm) at present 20:28:22 it's basically designed this way 20:28:43 there are things like sac hand though, and I don't know how this interacts with shield for fo 20:28:56 you lose shields but keep 2-handed weapons 20:29:04 you also lose a ring slot 20:29:26 fo sacrifice a hand-pair basically 20:29:59 so I assume fo using sac hand likes to use tm to some degree 20:30:13 pretty much every tm likes hand sac 20:30:27 since you don't want to use shields anyway and you don't lose the ability to use good weapons either 20:30:58 yeah I could see that; I'm not sure how much the damage loss if you're 1h uc, probably not enough to matter 20:31:24 a shield drops your total uc damage by ~1/5, that includes the increased delay 20:31:28 it's easily worth the trade 20:32:30 yeah with form it would be; tbh I've done very little UC without forms 20:33:04 oh well there's troll, but that's claws 3, and it's even more worth it then 20:33:21 the OH ratio doesn't really change in forms and with forms your damage is so absurd even if you lost more than 1/5 it'd be still easily worth the crazy piety gain 20:34:53 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:35:57 it does seem to me kind of better to let Fo keep their shield in forms; the loss in consistency seems modest and it lets them be closer to the "2h damage with a shield yet awful stasis" design that they are while in all other good forms 20:36:20 all other than statue form, I mean 20:36:37 -!- MakMorn has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:37:35 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:06 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:20 also a bug that nuked OH punch in all forms was around for quite long although that isn't very relevant anymore 20:40:54 maybe we should reimplement meleebug but only for forms and see how long it takes people to notic 20:41:01 have to keep players on their feet 20:43:36 -!- fiddlerwoaroof has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:48:32 -!- agentgt has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:52 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:19 -!- agentgt has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:58 -!- agentgt has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:05 -!- P_R_Deltoid has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:54:08 -!- eXcel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:58 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:20 hahaha 21:09:20 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:10:23 -!- tcsc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:19:39 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:21:27 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:22:46 -!- joke_LA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:02 <|amethyst> oh, hey 21:29:14 <|amethyst> I was doing a refactoring and found a bug 21:30:19 <|amethyst> Did you know that if you try to place a shop when you already have 64 shops on the level, notes will be permanently disabled in your game? 21:30:43 <|amethyst> I haven't empirically confirmed, and it doesn't sound likely to ever actually happen outside wizmode 21:31:58 more proof that crawl needs to display more numbers! 21:32:08 This bug has existed for YEARS I bet and no one even noticed 21:34:02 -!- Ladykiller70 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:16 I bet gozag introduced it 21:37:52 -!- digitCruncher has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:39:21 -!- kazimuth has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:40:00 <|amethyst> nope 21:40:04 <|amethyst> %git 1d0f57cbc 21:40:04 07greensnark02 * 1d0f57cbceb7: Merged stone_soup r15:451 into trunk. 10(9 years ago, 180 files, 39016+ 25829-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d0f57cbceb7 21:43:16 <|amethyst> oh, not all notes notes 21:43:18 <|amethyst> s/notes/ 21:43:55 <|amethyst> only those about item identification 21:46:18 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:46:35 <|amethyst> hrm 21:47:10 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:15 <|amethyst> oh, no, it is all notes; I missed the use of notes_active in take_note 21:48:22 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:48:57 -!- rossi_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2] 21:49:40 <|amethyst> ah, and wizmode shop creation actually checks beforehand so doesn't trigger the buggy return 21:50:46 <|amethyst> but I did confirm it by using wizmode to place 64 shops, then using &Lshop to place the "shop" vault (rather than going through the wizmode code) 21:50:53 <|amethyst> even : doesn't produce a note 21:55:23 03|amethyst02 07* 0.17-a0-1654-g2fc66b0: Add an RAII class to suppress notes. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 17+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2fc66b00bc89 21:55:23 03|amethyst02 07* 0.17-a0-1655-g88a8506: Use the new no_notes class in several places. 10(32 seconds ago, 4 files, 11+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/88a8506ae853 21:55:42 <|amethyst> I don't think I will bother pushing this one to 0.16 22:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:22 Lasty: do you have any opinion on Fo melding shield? 22:07:39 Stable (0.16) branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16.2-2-g470672f 22:09:27 RAII class...now I'm going to feel compelled to make my commit messages sound that technical 22:12:43 -!- daagar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:12:56 gammafunk: I don't think I know the context for the question 22:13:20 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:30 Lasty: my plan was to allow Fo to retain their shields e.g. in good forms, since (in my reasoning) their design is about 2h damage + shield with awful statsis 22:13:36 presently they only get to keep it in statue 22:14:01 similar to how we handle Op in forms, but as |amethyst points out there's a consistency there that we wouldn't have with what I propose 22:14:08 so you'd get spider form + shields? 22:14:11 yes 22:14:13 that strikes me as insane 22:14:29 it doesn't to me 22:14:34 Not from a balance perspective, but from an internal logic perspective 22:14:52 a tiny spider holding a large shield with its spider-limbs ... 22:15:09 <|amethyst> not just statue, also lich, tree, and appendage 22:15:29 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:42 again the badforms are not really my concern here, this is about gameplay mostly in my view, but yeah good point about lich 22:15:46 I read ice form, dragon form, spider form, and hydra form as leaving you with no limbs that can hold things... 22:16:01 how tiny are the spiders from spider form, though? i figured they were pretty big 22:16:12 <|amethyst> SIZE_TINY 22:16:13 well I guess how do you reason that dragon form leaving you with 8 lings for rings? 22:16:16 <|amethyst> so cat sized 22:16:22 If anything I'd go the direction of melding rings on hydra/dragon form 22:16:23 s/lings/limbs/ 22:16:28 no we went away from that 22:16:39 that was what we did previously, and people just found it awful 22:16:40 Lasty: things were like that in 0.12 or so, last i looked 22:16:46 ah, hmm 22:16:55 I mean, from a balance perspective, those two forms sure don't need the nerf 22:17:15 losing 6 rings is probably a lot worse than losing a shield, but losing a shield in forms is a very big deal for fo 22:17:20 it's a little different for shields though, since i presume the problem was Op wanted to keep *these* two rings, and you don't get to pick when melding happens 22:17:24 Overall, I'm against no-weapon forms leaving you with a shield even as an Fo 22:17:38 <|amethyst> I still am not convinced by the justification of not making forms punish Fo more than other races 22:17:49 <|amethyst> the same justification would say we should let ogres wield GSC in forms 22:18:12 |amethyst: GSC isn't terribly necessary for an Og's survival 22:18:18 it's a question of degree in my view 22:18:28 your reasoning is about general consistency, which I grant that 22:18:51 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:32 Formicids are already extra-punished when using UC and shields, even w/o forms -- they still don't get full 2H damage from UC (e.g. offhand punch) 22:19:37 (or do they) 22:20:00 <|amethyst> if it's necessary to buff FoTM, I'd rather just give them free SH when in forms than let them and them alone wear a shield 22:20:11 -!- daagar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20:59 hrm, that's an interesting idea, but also raises consistency issues in some sense, and is a weird precedent 22:21:44 I guess you can view it as the design of the form conflicting with the design of Fo, but we have a situation that's similar (although not the same) with Op 22:21:55 <|amethyst> Well 22:22:05 <|amethyst> oh right 22:22:15 <|amethyst> no good forms meld rings 22:22:28 and that was a more recent change, IIRC 22:22:48 yeah I do strongly think that from a gameplay perspecting, not merging those rings was the right choice 22:22:53 s/merging/melding/ 22:23:13 I mean, the forms are "good magic that makes your form like a foo, not necessarily exactly" 22:23:30 !learn edit lasty_to_do[1 s/$/; fix blurry vision:-Scrolls interaction 22:23:30 lasty to do[1/12]: ranged reform; redo throwing; add AF_HUNGER to death cobs and set all AF_HUNGER to not require damage; fix blurry vision:-Scrolls interaction 22:23:52 so a weirdo dragon with 8 little arms or tiny spider running around with a shield doesn't bother me, but that's not the only issue 22:24:32 ... would shield skill impact shield penalties differently based on your new size? 22:24:57 "at tiny size, need 25 Shields to wear a buckler w/o penalty" :p 22:25:07 yeah it would 22:25:36 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 22:25:45 it's true then you have some weird bonus for spider form, but this is also the case with e.g. dex rings 22:25:52 when you get more ev in spider 22:25:56 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Exit Stage Left] 22:26:06 Arguably, the special thing about being a formicid isn't wearing a shield, it's wielding a 2H weapon while wielding one. Should goodforms formicids be able to wield 2H weapons? 22:26:22 they get 2h UC damage 22:26:29 or rather they should 22:26:39 I view 2h uc as equivalent to 2h weapon 22:26:51 yeah, I think that's the intention 22:26:57 or at least the right way to look at it 22:26:59 I'm not pushing this through by the way, if anyone is worried 22:27:07 I didn't think so 22:27:12 I hear two votes basically against, I might query elliptic, mpa, see how they feel 22:27:55 the sh bonus thing seems a bit ugly to me; I guess one nice thing is that there's no strange skill interactions like Lasty mentioned 22:28:15 Speaking of maybe bad ideas, how would you feel about me making AF_HUNGER (the hungry ghost AF) apply even when AC reduces damage to zero (ala AF_CORRODE) and then adding AF_HUNGER to death cobs? It's a modest buff to two pretty wimpy enemies 22:28:17 but do you only get it if you meld a shield? it's a bit weird as well in some ways 22:28:47 hrm, I do like the idea of death cobs doing something besides be a joke 22:29:00 not sure I like af_hunger on them though 22:29:18 they're trivial popcorn and would be that and even more annoying 22:29:26 One bonus to buffing them in that particular way would be that they don't also buff Yred :p 22:29:40 ah, well I had wanted to remove them from yred's list 22:29:49 but it's true that it's hard to find a replacement 22:30:07 They'd be trivial popcorn that could make a larger fight awkward, tho. Still mostly annoying I suppose. 22:30:09 I guess it'd be weird to gift somme random moderately powerful zombie or something 22:30:27 yeah I just can't see that being effective at all in e.g. zot 22:30:48 if you want to get them off of yred's list then you can give them the full Lasty treatment! 22:30:59 <|amethyst> gammafunk: what about a random moderately powerful spectral? 22:31:02 Arrhythmia would like cob shrikes 22:31:12 <|amethyst> gammafunk: or does that overlap too much with enslave soul? 22:31:31 yeah maybe, I seem to recall someone objecting in terms of class of monster but 22:31:44 yred covers U and W already doesn't he 22:31:56 <|amethyst> U? 22:32:02 gammafunk: umber hulks? 22:32:06 er 22:32:10 I'm confused about glyphs 22:32:13 V? 22:32:25 we don'thave anything on U any more, do we 22:32:28 nope 22:32:30 wide open 22:32:58 <|amethyst> gammafunk: what do you mean by 'covers'? 22:33:34 I like the idea of taking cobs away from Yred and then buffing them up significantly. If they weren't just popcorn and attacked multiple times, they could potentially shred your hunger fast, making it hard to get turns against them... 22:33:37 well I'm going by glyph, which I probably shouldn't, but I mean in terms of consistency of classes of gifts; I guess he just gifts all kinds of things so it's no issue at all 22:33:48 or I could just drop the hunger thing and just make them scary 22:34:17 <|amethyst> MzWVnD%A 22:34:21 ^ 22:34:28 Lasty: i think even adding hunger to them would be kinda nice, because it might help people realize they can just be Engorged in zot, after one too many encounters with a death cob while starving yourself till you find a corpse 22:34:40 <|amethyst> there are more M V z etc that yred could gift 22:34:58 death cob (08%) | Spd: 25 | HD: 10 | HP: 51-79 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 20 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1012 | Sz: tiny | Int: human. 22:34:58 %?? death cob 22:35:01 guardian mummy (08M) | Spd: 8 | HD: 7 | HP: 40-53 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Dam: 30 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 328 | Sz: Large | Int: human. 22:35:01 %?? guardian mummy 22:35:08 well we don't need to use popcorn monsters as a tutorial in Zot I feel 22:35:29 ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 130-163 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 30, 30 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 1546 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:35:29 %?? ghoul 22:35:40 yeah if we can find a spectre that's similar 22:35:41 vampire (05V) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 22-42 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 15, 1505(vampiric) | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 211 | Sp: vampiric draining, confuse, invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:35:41 %?? vampire 22:35:51 phantasmal warrior (09W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 37-62 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 3912(vuln) | 07undead, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 635 | Sp: blink close [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:35:51 %?? phantasmal warrior 22:36:19 spectral spriggan (03Z) | Spd: 16 | HD: 15 | HP: 77-102 | AC/EV: 5/17 | Dam: 1213(drain) | 07undead, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 835 | Sz: little | Int: brainless. 22:36:19 %?? spectral spriggan defender 22:36:19 possibly just shift weight towards existing things that are similar 22:36:26 spectral spriggan (03Z) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 63-84 | AC/EV: 4/13 | Dam: 1213(drain) | 07undead, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 549 | Sz: little | Int: brainless. 22:36:26 %?? spectral spriggan berserker 22:36:42 -!- GauHelldragon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:56 Shifting weight is probably fine 22:37:08 it's not like Yred is super-weak or amazingly finely balanced 22:37:22 <|amethyst> @??wraith 22:37:22 wraith (15W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 22-44 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 1313(drain speed) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(60), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 207 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:37:25 <|amethyst> @??shadow wraith 22:37:25 shadow wraith (13W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 41-71 | AC/EV: 7/7 | Dam: 2713(drain speed) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(100), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 771 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:37:29 <|amethyst> @??freezing wraith 22:37:29 freezing wraith (12W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 31-56 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 1612(cold:8-23), 1313(drain speed) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 12cold+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 311 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:37:35 so yeah, I might take a pass at that tomorrow morning 22:37:40 <|amethyst> @??eidolon 22:37:40 eidolon (07W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 56-87 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 2713(drain speed), 1702(drain stat) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(140), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1139 | Sp: b.draining (3d21) [06!sil], cause fear [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:38:05 gammafunk: just checking: do you think that AF_HUNGER has no place in Zot at all, or only on an otherwise-popcorn monster? 22:38:18 (only not on) 22:39:01 Lasty: I think it's a problem if it's a popcorn monster, yeah. If you can get dangerous hunger from this thing fairly easilly, that's better in my view 22:39:36 not saying it needs to become the cob shrike or anything, but it shouldn't be about the same as fighting a slightly buffed hungry ghost I guess 22:39:43 maybe others have different opinions 22:39:45 agreed 22:39:53 I like the idea of buffing it and also giving it AF_HUNGER 22:39:56 <|amethyst> @??hungry ghost 22:39:56 hungry ghost (03W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 29-50 | AC/EV: 0/17 | Dam: 502(hunger) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 184 | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:40:07 -!- vale_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:40:09 <|amethyst> is speed 25 not significant enough? 22:40:12 I think that could create some unique dangerous situations at that point in the game 22:40:26 <|amethyst> could give it multiple attacks as well 22:40:28 I might be underestimating how bad ordinary af_hunger is at speed 25 22:40:38 gammafunk: it cuts your hunger in health on each hit 22:40:41 er 22:40:42 in half 22:40:44 <|amethyst> or is the problem that you'll kill it before it is adjacent 22:40:54 they do go down awfully fast 22:41:12 buffing hungry ghosts is good too, IMO. They tend to be pretty forgettable now, even early 22:41:18 well they aren't much more than a corny joke by zot 22:41:29 Lasty: are you trying to make dpeg happy by adding more hunger costs? 22:41:33 is this a conspiracy 22:41:41 I'm just trying to anger archaeo 22:41:45 haha 22:41:48 <|amethyst> speaking of hunger 22:41:48 I'll tell him that! 22:41:54 nah, I just think it's a decent way to buff these two monsters 22:42:16 <|amethyst> what about cutting chunk frequency in half? 22:42:21 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:42:48 Sounds fine to me. I'd be fine with cutting permafood too 22:42:54 (cutting it in half) 22:43:09 I guess that might be too much for spriggans :p 22:43:17 <|amethyst> yeah, spriggans 22:43:31 not sure how that works for things that tend to leave one chunk 22:43:41 <|amethyst> I haven't run stats, but I have inspected a few winning games 22:44:02 <|amethyst> in general, there seems to be enough permafood for non-Tr mostly melee characters 22:44:10 maybe just removing chunks altogether with no replacement? 22:44:14 <|amethyst> and about half enough permafood for conjurers 22:44:47 there are other hunger intensive chars as well; sif summoners, zin casters 22:44:51 <|amethyst> yeah 22:44:59 removing chunks with no replacement would make crawl a much less macabre game, and I'm not necessarily against that 22:45:11 <|amethyst> (this was by counting whether all the permafood in inventory and on the floor would provide as much nutrition as the total eaten chunks) 22:45:34 yeah, personally I think we could remove chunks and most hunger costs (spell hunger, ability hunger) and use permafood only for a clock 22:45:41 and probably get the best results 22:46:00 <|amethyst> Spell hunger has a tactical effect now though 22:46:08 yes it's just not a very good one in my view 22:46:18 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:46:38 <|amethyst> I guess it's just another kind of MP 22:46:52 <|amethyst> (even without sif) 22:46:58 Honestly, spell hunger isn't very interesting 22:47:16 ... basically what gammafunk said 22:47:46 duvessa has commented that it's hard to make a good clock, and permafood could certainly do that (considering removing all food, for instance), but going this route requires a lot more thinking about what things with hunger need adjustment 22:48:21 yeah 22:48:41 invis hunger is significant with spriggans, zerk hunger can be significant, zin's conduct (which I hate), sif channeling (probably going to change channeling at some point anyhow) 22:48:47 I mean, status quo is that almost nothing is mainly limited by hunger, aside from outlying cases involving weird choices. 22:49:11 IMO Ely was the last thing where hunger really mattered 22:49:14 -!- name has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:32 but to be fair, I haven't played many spriggans in the last year 22:49:58 most of those could be shifted over to glow or something if they really need to stay 22:50:01 imo 22:50:11 yeah, certainly you had to watch using the L6's if you were running lower spellcasting with someone who cared more about melee, but this was most just "pay attention, use |energy before haste/invis/forms" etc 22:50:15 <|amethyst> some big questions are: 1. vampire 2. ghoul 3. gozag 22:50:39 <|amethyst> I guess ghouls could eat corpses off the ground for healing 22:50:39 yes, archao's spreadsheet has some suggestions collated from various places; you could leave those minigames in for vp and gh 22:50:43 1) and 2) could remain as-is even if the rest of the game has no corpse-feeding 22:50:49 Just get rid of ghoul rot it dosent do anything 22:50:51 oh 22:50:52 oh yeah that's another I hadn't though of, for some reason 22:50:53 -!- name is now known as tabstorm 22:50:53 the hunger aspect of 3) isn't really interesting imo 22:50:55 woops 22:50:57 heh 22:51:23 also just give vp all the benefits of undead: rtorm rpois rc 22:51:26 yes that's true; gozag and food doesn't have a glorious history, does it 22:51:31 really I think +5 stealth is distinct enough 22:51:43 that's one approach, but the design of vp is "states of hunger = resists" 22:51:52 Maybe it should be reconsidered 22:51:59 gozag certainly doesn't have a glorious history 22:52:02 and by that I mean removed without replacement 22:52:09 I mean, I don't necessarilly like it, but with some simplification it could be tolerable, and blood pots could remain 22:52:36 anyhow I guess I'd love to punt the food issue until maybe 0.18? but I don't want to stop people from improving things 22:52:44 i think the gain from getting rid of hunger costs is > than the loss from making Vp less "interesting" wrt. hunger 22:53:00 that's not what's being argued (by me) 22:53:28 <|amethyst> gammafunk: That's why I started by suggesting cutting chunk drop frequency in half, because that could be done now without answering all these questions :) 22:53:40 hehe 22:54:06 Would you cut hunger costs in half too? 22:54:22 <|amethyst> no, that would be silly 22:54:33 nerf casters to oblivion 22:54:34 <|amethyst> because it's not cutting food in half at all 22:54:35 well the aim of |amethyst's change is to make hunger more significant I think, yeah 22:54:50 Oh... 22:56:35 -!- foophykins has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:57:25 -!- archaeo has joined ##crawl-dev 22:57:55 If we do ever actually nerf magic, one way I'd like to consider buffing it to compensate is changing the stepdowns on spellpower. They're more severe than I like, though I think magic is currently in a fine place overall. 22:58:27 <|amethyst> to return it to the significance of pre-chunk-cleaning 22:58:46 I'm no fan of using glow for a cost. 22:58:53 <|amethyst> could make all the things that used to be contaminated inedible 22:59:05 <|amethyst> s/all/many of/ 22:59:30 that's a very severe problem for magic users imo 22:59:37 anyway, I'm out for the evening. I'll take a pass at ruining death cobs in the morning. 22:59:38 well, before we had gourmand 22:59:53 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:02 -!- omarax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:22 I think your idea of reducing chunks is better than that idea 23:01:56 sorry to butt in, but I am curious 23:02:54 what would be the goal of reducing the availability of food? 23:03:06 make food more significant, basically 23:04:25 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:04:31 <|amethyst> to overcompensate for the increase in chunks in 0.15 23:04:42 <|amethyst> s/chunks/chunk-based nutrition/ 23:07:13 currently food pretty much never matters 23:07:25 unless you are doing certain very specific things 23:07:37 ...in which case it still doesn't really matter, but is kind of annoying 23:08:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:08:12 well everyone agrees with "food pretty much never matters" 23:08:22 at least, I think 23:10:03 -!- Mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:01 <|amethyst> very short-term, would there be any problems with making auto_eat_chunks the default? 23:12:19 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:38 <|amethyst> (I would say easy_eat_chunks too, but that has problems with purple chunks and with typeahead) 23:15:25 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:32 <|amethyst> (I've tried unsuccessfully a few times to make greedy explore to corpses + autobutcher work) 23:17:33 <|amethyst> ??devteam[5] 23:17:33 devteam[5/27]: sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up 23:20:46 it's hard to think of a real "design-y" reason auto_eat_chunks is a problem 23:21:12 <|amethyst> I was thinking of technical issues 23:21:18 <|amethyst> like with easy_eat_chunks and purple 23:21:51 -!- Cacophony has quit [Quit: oh no am scare] 23:22:24 <|amethyst> I think auto_eat_chunks being optional is a holdover from when food did more stuff 23:22:33 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 23:22:59 ghouls seem like the only reason food still exists 23:23:04 <|amethyst> we no longer have to worry about "were they saving that for sublimation" or "what if that engorges them and they can't eat royal jellies" 23:23:48 i mean, engorging is nice if you use a bunch of spells or rods or whatever 23:23:50 I think there's an argument to be made that it will be slightly disorienting for new players, and makes hunger a little more opaque 23:23:58 but, I mean, "slightly" and "little" might be overstating it 23:24:09 but now that chunks basically do nothing, it's "eh" 23:24:45 <|amethyst> What do you mean by "now"? 23:24:52 and even though i personally liked to carry around 6 billion dragon chunks for simulacrum.... 23:24:58 <|amethyst> ah 23:25:03 well, ever since chunks weren't spell components 23:25:43 but even i have to admit that the game is a lot more streamlined now that it doesn't encourage that 23:26:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:27:09 and that win i got with a bunch of gold/shadow dragon simulacra and using ozo's on faerie armour is long in the past =P 23:27:25 -!- filthy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:27:52 -!- copt has quit [] 23:38:51 -!- daagar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:42:28 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:47:09 -!- Prozacelf has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 23:56:59 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy