00:00:00 <|amethyst> "crawl" and "dungeon crawl" are both problematic
00:00:24 <doy> renaming repos and organizations is pretty easy, i'm pretty sure
00:00:42 <elliptic> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-16-tournament-results
00:01:09 <chequers> renaming a repo or organisation is trivial in the UI
00:01:23 <chequers> harder to update links once it's live, ofc
00:01:57 <Sizzell> Stable (0.16) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16.1-11-g651b585
00:02:10 <chequers> elliptic: last line doubled?
00:03:02 <elliptic> er yes the second line is supposed to be 0.15
00:03:42 <elliptic> also I was going to link to johnstein's cool graph, adding that now
00:04:05 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.17-a0-290-g18e7317 (34)
00:04:45 <chequers> maybe use dotpoints for the results paras too, the post is pretty text dense
00:07:58 <elliptic> what would the html be for that?
00:08:17 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:09:01 <|amethyst> <ul><li>...</li><li>...</li></ul>
00:09:17 <|amethyst> instead of a pre
00:09:24 <|amethyst> assuming 'dotpoints' means 'bullets'
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00:11:16 <chequers> actually I meant the paragraphs, like "The clan competition was...". Convert it into a para: Clan results: * 1st: Cheigis Khan * 2nd: ....
00:12:03 <|amethyst> ah, I thought you were talking about the statistics paragraph
00:12:03 <chequers> winners are the 1%
00:12:15 <|amethyst> well, the first part of my answer is the same either way :)
00:12:49 <Gretell> Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.16.1-11-g651b585 (34)
00:13:35 <|amethyst> I like how our repo autogravatar looks like a stick figure
00:13:39 <|amethyst> s/repo/org/
00:14:00 <elliptic> I thought you meant the statistics paragraphs too and I think I like that formatting there so I changed that :P
00:14:00 <elliptic> well, except that I'm lagging
00:14:46 <gammafunk> !gamesby . t
00:14:47 <Sequell> gammafunk (t) has played 95 games, between 2015-03-13 22:01:15 and 2015-03-29 05:45:31, won 1 (1.1%), high score 1472244, total score 1617420, total turns 286915, play-time/day 1:50:04, total time 1d+7:11:15.
00:14:59 <gammafunk> dang, way above player average
00:15:25 <johnstein> woo!
00:15:37 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp t s=name x=sum(dur)
00:15:37 <johnstein> had I known it would be famous, I would have spent more time formatting it
00:15:37 <Sequell> 365 games for devteamnp (t): 95x gammafunk [1d+7:11:15], 91x neil [17:39:30], 36x wheals [15:32:48], 31x dpeg [21:07:50], 23x Medar [3d+3:46:56], 21x ontoclasm [1d+6:20:14], 19x Lasty [2d+3:35:07], 19x MarvinPA [1d+14:55:28], 11x elliptic [2d+2:57:57], 11x reaverb [1d+10:27:32], 4x mumra [1:34:52], 3x PleasingFungus [11:29:06], bh [5:11:29]
00:16:09 <elliptic> anyway if anyone else with a wordpress account wants to edit the post go ahead, I'll be sleeping
00:16:15 <elliptic> !lg devteamnp t s=name x=+sum(dur)
00:16:16 <Sequell> 365 games for devteamnp (t): 23x Medar [3d+3:46:56], 19x Lasty [2d+3:35:07], 11x elliptic [2d+2:57:57], 19x MarvinPA [1d+14:55:28], 11x reaverb [1d+10:27:32], 95x gammafunk [1d+7:11:15], 21x ontoclasm [1d+6:20:14], 31x dpeg [21:07:50], 91x neil [17:39:30], 36x wheals [15:32:48], 3x PleasingFungus [11:29:06], bh [5:11:29], 4x mumra [1:34:52]
00:16:59 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp t won s=name
00:17:00 <Sequell> 47 games for devteamnp (t won): 11x elliptic, 9x Lasty, 9x Medar, 7x MarvinPA, 3x ontoclasm, 2x PleasingFungus, wheals, reaverb, neil, gammafunk, dpeg, bh
00:17:34 <gammafunk> !lg devteamnp t hesu s=name
00:17:34 <Sequell> 85 games for devteamnp (t hesu): 85x gammafunk
00:17:40 <chequers> you and hesu
00:17:44 <PleasingFungus> !lg * t hesu s=name
00:17:44 <Sequell> 116 games for * (t hesu): 85x gammafunk, 20x ew, 6x kickascii, 2x respen, kuniqs, gw, Matticus
00:17:55 <gammafunk> !lg * hesu s=name
00:17:55 <Sequell> 1857 games for * (hesu): 1076x gammafunk, 34x timbw, 23x ldf, 20x ew, 20x Manslay, 20x Croases, 18x blackw6, 15x mTUX, 14x Sorbius, 12x Ao, 12x tekoppen, 12x jejorda2, 11x DealPete, 10x Eifel, 10x zahalkas, 9x Cirk, 9x asdu, 9x Hurricos, 9x WINNING, 9x Clario, 8x johnnyzero, 8x perunasaurus, 8x Mogri, 8x Neil, 7x bmfx, 7x kickascii, 7x Tixat, 7x Kenreth, 7x Grimm, 6x Isvaffel, 6x zkyp, 6x RinTezuk...
00:17:58 <gammafunk> lol
00:17:59 <PleasingFungus> bots can't step to you...
00:18:05 <PleasingFungus> also, lol
00:18:07 <elliptic> good gw
00:18:25 <elliptic> !lg gw hesu t -tv:<T0
00:18:25 <Sequell> 1. gw, XL2 HESu, T:957 requested for FooTV: telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org.
00:18:34 <chequers> &rc ew
00:18:36 <Sequell> http://crawl.develz.org/configs/0.16/ew.rc
00:18:41 <doy> |amethyst: is the sdl-android repository used at all?
00:18:51 <chequers> who is ew?
00:18:54 <|amethyst> doy:  I think so, yes
00:19:00 <chequers> ah, tas20120
00:19:01 <elliptic> ew is a bot run by TAS_2012v
00:19:09 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.17-a0-290-g18e7317 (34)
00:19:15 <elliptic> ??ew
00:19:16 <Sequell> enchant weapon[1/2]: Increases your wielded weapon's enchantment by +1 and uncurses it if you are not with Ashenzari. You can't enchant artifacts, but you can still uncurse them.
00:19:31 <doy> |amethyst: where is it used?
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00:20:22 <|amethyst> doy:  oh, hm
00:20:35 <chequers> ??qw
00:20:35 <Sequell> qw[1/3]: A fully automated lua bot written by elliptic, with some code borrowed from parabolic and xw. See "!lg qw won 2" for the first ever completely uninterrupted and unassisted bot win.
00:20:37 <chequers> ??qw[2
00:20:37 <Sequell> qw[2/3]: Branch order: D -> Lair:8 -> Orc:3 -> D:15 -> S:5 -> Vaults:4 -> Depths:5 -> S:5 -> Vaults:5 -> Zot
00:20:37 <chequers> ??qw[3
00:20:38 <Sequell> qw[3/3]: On the online servers, qw plays with an extra added delay so that it doesn't use too much server CPU. Playing locally without this delay, qw is much faster: http://bpaste.net/show/84f40fd6f6b6
00:20:47 <|amethyst> doy:  oh, if someone wanted to make android builds of 0.15
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00:21:08 <|amethyst> doy:  I think it's not used anymore post-SDL2
00:21:16 <doy> okay
00:21:34 <|amethyst> doy:  but check with grunt to be sure
00:22:04 <doy> i'll just mirror it, no real reason not to
00:22:17 <|amethyst> I updated the crawl-ref org name and picture
00:22:27 <gammafunk> you used sigmund didn't you
00:22:38 <|amethyst> it's still crawl-ref in the URL, but it says "Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup development team"
00:22:46 <gammafunk> oh
00:22:46 <|amethyst> nah, used the high-res soup cauldron
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00:23:33 <gammafunk> I guess we can edit the crawl-ref description now as well
00:23:43 <doy> yeah
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00:24:45 <doy> so... hmmm
00:25:00 <doy> is there any actual reason at this point that we keep around the extra crawl-ref directory?
00:25:15 <doy> would anything break if i just move everything up a level?
00:25:21 <chequers> This organization has no public members. You must be a member to see who's a part of this organization.
00:25:39 <PleasingFungus> doy: it's a magical mystery
00:25:44 <PleasingFungus> also probably monster would break? idk
00:26:03 <PleasingFungus> hm
00:26:15 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: how did you get the #s for the win % for the second half of the tourney?
00:26:39 <PleasingFungus> when I was poking at it, I got something like a 1.3, 1.4% winrate for the second half...
00:27:54 <doy> speaking of monster
00:28:07 <doy> i wonder if we might want to move some more repositories into the github organization
00:28:14 <|amethyst> yeah
00:28:30 <|amethyst> I was going to at least move monster and chei to my github account
00:29:32 <|amethyst> I could transfer ownership on dgamelaunch-config, dgamelaunch, and sizzell
00:29:41 * chequers reforks from the new master
00:30:15 <|amethyst> but parts of the first and last are specific to cszo at the moment
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00:39:20 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: did you add !@bot?
00:39:20 <PleasingFungus> hm
00:39:26 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: oh, I didn't
00:39:39 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-291-g1c7c673: New overflow vault 10(8 days ago, 1 file, 20+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1c7c673c5124
00:39:42 <elliptic> ew warps winrate a lot
00:39:42 <elliptic> !lg * t / @ew
00:39:42 <PleasingFungus> also, I hope we aren't supposed to stop pushing to gitorious yet
00:39:42 <Sequell> 30656/97853 games for * (t): N=30656/97853 (31.33%)
00:39:43 <|amethyst> okay, I transferred dgamelaunch (not dgamelaunch-config yet) to crawl-ref
00:39:45 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: !
00:39:48 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  correct
00:39:53 <elliptic> !lg * t / @bot
00:39:54 <Sequell> 34110/97853 games for * (t): N=34110/97853 (34.86%)
00:40:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  keep pushing to gitorious until everything is converted
00:40:09 <rchandra> |amethyst: P is still starting 0.16 games, though it says Trunk in the menu
00:40:15 <|amethyst> rchandra:  doh
00:40:22 <|amethyst> rchandra:  only changed one of the menus :P
00:40:33 <|amethyst> rchandra:  (stupid separate admin/user menus)
00:40:40 <rchandra> power corrupts
00:40:53 <rchandra> admins and devs don't think of the little people anymore
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00:42:32 <minmay> PleasingFungus: this vault seems like a massive autoexplore trap
00:42:43 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-292-geb37c66: (Almost) remove (monster) pale & grey draconians 10(3 weeks ago, 11 files, 36+ 46-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eb37c66918d6
00:42:45 <PleasingFungus> minmay: howso?
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00:43:34 <minmay> PleasingFungus: something makes noise and the fire elemental wakes up -> fire elemental wanders near southmost floor square -> player autoexplores in, fire elemental gets 2 or 3 actions as it comes into view because the player just walked into shallow water
00:43:39 <|amethyst> rchandra:  okay, fixed if you log back in
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00:44:01 <minmay> PleasingFungus: could be avoided by changing one c to another n, though
00:44:03 <PleasingFungus> minmay: oh, I fucked up the glass when I tweaked the vault
00:44:06 <PleasingFungus> yeah
00:44:15 <rchandra> indeed, |amethyst.  thanks
00:44:19 <PleasingFungus> the corridor used to be a little longer, I changed that but forgot to change the glass
00:44:24 <PleasingFungus> let me fix that. good catch
00:44:35 <chequers> so will you accept pull requests now? :)
00:44:40 <minmay> also does it make steam everywhere
00:44:49 <minmay> or has that changed
00:45:02 <PleasingFungus> how would it make steam
00:45:09 <minmay> flame cloud near water
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00:45:40 <PleasingFungus> ah
00:45:45 <chequers> !seen mrwooster
00:45:45 <Sequell> I last saw mrwooster at Sun Mar 29 17:30:53 2015 UTC (12h 14m 52s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: mrwooster'.
00:45:51 <minmay> oh, it looks like flame clouds near water don't make tons of steam anymore
00:45:54 <minmay> so it has changed
00:46:17 <minmay> oh wait, no, they do, my spell power was just too low
00:46:38 <PleasingFungus> hm
00:47:01 <minmay> yeah, just putting a flame cloud next to a shallow water tile makes steam, it doesn't seem to fill the screen with it like I remember it doing back when I played characters with spells, though
00:47:06 <minmay> so probably fine
00:47:14 <PleasingFungus> I don't see any steam while testing but idk
00:47:24 <minmay> I mean, there are like 10 early game vaults already that do literally nothing except make tons of steam :P
00:47:25 <PleasingFungus> also I think that will only happen when the fire elemental wanders away, too
00:47:37 <minmay> yeah, it definitely won't happen if the elemental doens't wake up
00:47:39 <minmay> doesn't*
00:48:15 <gammafunk> !lg .
00:48:16 <Sequell> 2799. gammafunk the Caller (L8 HESu of Sif Muna), quit the game on D:9 on 2015-03-30 00:47:18, with 1201 points after 3710 turns and 0:28:25.
00:48:30 <gammafunk> !log
00:48:31 <Sequell> 2799. gammafunk, XL8 HESu, T:3710: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20150330-004718.txt
00:48:44 <PleasingFungus> yesss
00:48:50 <PleasingFungus> another devkill for nrook
00:48:55 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: I got this sweet lair:8 entrance. Man I was celebrating
00:48:58 <PleasingFungus> I'm gonna count that as mine, since he's my apartmentmate.
00:48:59 <gammafunk> good turns, good elf
00:49:05 <|amethyst> also transferred sizzell
00:49:08 <gammafunk> clear out the vault, right, no problem!
00:49:12 * PleasingFungus cackles!
00:49:14 <gammafunk> komodos, alligators
00:49:18 <gammafunk> oh, but
00:49:20 <gammafunk> what's this?
00:49:26 <gammafunk> lair entrance a mimic?
00:49:31 <gammafunk> and then what happens on the next fucking level?
00:49:36 -!- Kittykai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:49:42 <gammafunk> a guardian serpent? oh, who made *this* vault?
00:49:49 * gammafunk rages
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00:51:48 <PleasingFungus> I feast on your suffering.
00:53:32 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.17-a0-291-g1c7c673
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00:56:44 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-293-g006947c: Fix an autoexplore trap (minmay) 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=006947c7c370
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01:05:08 <johnstein> elliptic: how exactly does the nemelex choice thing work for the tournement?
01:05:28 <gammafunk> ??nemelex_choice
01:05:28 <Sequell> nemelex' choice[1/2]: The Nemelex' Choice banner is a {tournament} banner awarded to players who win certain randomly selected combos during the tournament. See [2] for a list of the combos that have been selected in the past.
01:05:41 <gammafunk> !cmd nchoice
01:05:41 <Sequell> Command: !nchoice => .echo $(let (combo (if (is_int ${1:--1}) (nth (int ${1:--1}) $(split | (replace " => " | (!kw nchoice)))) $1)) (let (wins (!lg * t won char=$combo fmt:"$n" stub:"0")) (if (and (> (int $wins) 0) (= ${1:-x} x)) (=nchoice.new) (concat (canonicalise char $combo) ": $wins $(plural win (int $wins)) || " (or (=lastnchoice.combostatus $combo) "No $combo games in progress.")))))
01:05:55 <gammafunk> johnstein: I think it's on the rule page
01:06:03 <johnstein> I mean the tourney scripts
01:06:23 <elliptic> johnstein: when the current combo is won, the scripts select a new combo
01:07:16 <elliptic> the algorithm for selecting the combos is a bit complicated but basically there is a file that I populate with a list of eligible combos before tourney start
01:07:22 <johnstein> ok. I set up tourney-like summary pages for my gaming group (and people who come to our chatroom). for 0.15 the nemelex choice started at GhSk.  same thing happened for 0.16
01:07:31 <johnstein> yea. I'm familiar with that file
01:07:39 <elliptic> and then it tries to pick a combo from those that hasn't been won yet in tourney
01:08:01 <elliptic> and also weights in favor of combos that don't repeat race/class with previous combos
01:08:14 <johnstein> does it surprise you that GhSk was the first one picked for both versions for me?
01:08:50 <johnstein> I'm trying to figure out if my edits broke it
01:09:13 <elliptic> if a lot of games had already been played before you started the scripts then it could be that everything else was won
01:09:41 <johnstein> I doubt it. we don't have that many people.
01:09:41 <elliptic> or it could be just a coincidence, I think I usually have ~100 combos in the eligible file
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01:09:48 <johnstein> ok
01:09:54 <elliptic> so 1% chance of repeating something twice
01:10:04 <johnstein> I'll keep looking at the code to see if I broke something
01:10:42 <elliptic> johnstein: oh, the other thing is that the current nchoice is saved in nemelex-combos.txt
01:10:44 <johnstein> heh. well, 0.14 and the experimentals page all have it too. so it's probably something dumb I did
01:11:10 <johnstein> ah there it is
01:11:23 <elliptic> johnstein: so if you are using the same directory for the two tourneys or committed GhSk into that file at some point...
01:11:30 <johnstein> elliptic: am I supposed to have that file blank at the start?
01:11:33 <elliptic> yes
01:11:45 <johnstein> then that was my problem. thanks elliptic
01:12:36 <johnstein> elliptic: what mechanism makes the update?
01:13:03 <johnstein> i.e., I blanked out the file, but it's still on the overview page. does it just need taildb.py to run again and it's ok?
01:13:18 <elliptic> yes, that should work
01:13:59 <elliptic> it checks to see whether it needs a new combo at the bottom of outline.py
01:14:19 <|amethyst> btw, default is for your github org membership to be private
01:14:24 <elliptic> (actual logic in nemelex.py)
01:14:54 <|amethyst> you can go to  https://github.com/orgs/crawl-ref/people  and select "public" from the drop-down if you prefer
01:19:07 <rchandra> the alphabetical shop is amusing
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01:36:28 <|amethyst> doy:  hm.. I think also crawl-sdl crawl-sdl-image for 0.15 and earlier
01:36:33 <gammafunk> rchandra: which one did you get
01:36:37 <doy> |amethyst: where are those?
01:37:01 <doy> oh, did i just miss them on gitorious?
01:37:03 <|amethyst> https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl-sdl-image https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl-sdl
01:37:06 <|amethyst> yeah
01:37:07 <doy> okay
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01:37:23 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 1c7c673 #2108 : Nicholas Feinberg): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56371844
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01:37:47 <rchandra> gammafunk: C.  full of manuals of charms/conj, and a CBoE for my berserker
01:37:58 <gammafunk> excellent
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01:38:05 <rchandra> Cexzips' Commerce Corner
01:38:30 <n1k> multiple manuals huh
01:38:48 <chequers> how much is a manual worth in a shop anyway
01:38:50 <rchandra> 2 charms 1 conj, yeah
01:38:50 <n1k> I suppose that's something to keep an eye on
01:39:02 <gammafunk> it is, but they ain't cheap
01:39:02 <rchandra> chequers: 1435
01:39:04 <n1k> since manuals in shops are very rare
01:39:30 <|amethyst> that travis failure was gitorious's fault :)
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01:39:37 <rchandra> the +0 centaur barding at 299 and staff of cold at 325 were the best bargains, for the right people
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01:43:27 <simmarine> that is quite a lot of manuals
01:45:47 <chequers> shouldn't every start get 1mp minimum?
01:45:52 <gammafunk> not sure it's really a concern since manuals are very expensive and the first one you buy is likely to be of far more impact
01:46:16 <gammafunk> but we can both weight manuals lower and/or weight the shops lower
01:46:33 <chequers> I guess the worse case could be starting Wn with spells but no mp
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01:52:48 <chequers> i just found an E shop with two potions of experience, wildly expensive though
01:53:08 <chequers> I like having expensive things on my shopping list, so many games gold turns out to be completely useless
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01:54:40 <minmay> <chequers> shouldn't every start get 1mp minimum?
01:54:49 <minmay> several characters already start with 0 MP
01:56:00 <chequers> guess i never noticed
01:56:16 <chequers> like what? ghfi?
01:56:23 <minmay> try playing berserker almost anything, or troll almost anything bookless
01:57:25 <minmay> only berserkers that should start with MP are Dg, DE, HE, Fe, Sp
01:57:30 <minmay> and good luck playing the first one in recent versions
01:57:55 <Rotatell> MorganLeah (L11 SpTm) ASSERT(armour_ptr) in 'acquire.cc' at line 258 failed. (Lair:4)
01:58:14 <minmay> (aside: why is background-based starting mp still a thing adslkfhaslahklgajshklgjashfgalksjh)
01:58:43 <minmay> (oh wait maybe it isn't, i thought i just started a vsfi with 1 mp but i just did it again and it has 0)
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01:59:18 <minmay> (yeah looks like it isn't. false alarm)
01:59:50 <minmay> so yeah like, a good 1/3rd of all characters or so already start with 0 MP
02:00:14 <n1k> relax bud
02:01:38 <chequers> @??death yak
02:01:38 <Gretell> death yak (08Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 62-93 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Dam: 30 | Res: 06magic(100) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 872 | Sz: Big | Int: animal.
02:01:57 <minmay> Darts skill also gets you some needles.
02:02:01 <minmay> good comment
02:02:22 <|amethyst> doy:  hm, those contrib repos also have additional branches that are needed for old versions, not just master
02:02:43 <doy> |amethyst: i'm pushing up all of the branches and tags
02:02:51 <|amethyst> doy:  I went through and turned off issue tracking and wiki on all of them
02:03:11 <|amethyst> doy: thanks!
02:03:23 <minmay> mmm, it also gives wanderers a dagger if they started with stealth skill
02:04:19 <|amethyst> doy:  and I switched the default branch for crawl-ancient from "alternative" to "ancient"
02:04:29 <doy> |amethyst: so... what do you think about removing the extra crawl-ref directory
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02:04:36 <doy> is that actually going to break lots of things
02:05:02 <doy> https://github.com/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/tree/no-crawl-ref
02:05:02 <|amethyst> that will break server builds, monster's makefile, and maybe other stuff
02:05:10 <|amethyst> not that those couldn't be fixed
02:05:36 <doy> alright, i'll hold off then
02:06:00 <doy> it'd be nice to do though
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02:06:24 <doy> would make the top level github view look nicer
02:06:35 <|amethyst> doy:  it would also be nice to support out-of-tree builds
02:06:49 <|amethyst> that's unrelated, but it reminded me
02:06:59 <doy> for what?
02:07:31 <|amethyst> of crawl
02:07:43 <doy> i mean, what would you want to do with that?
02:08:08 <|amethyst> for one, it would make branch-hopping without ccache a little nicer
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02:10:29 <minmay> so does anyone know if it's possible for a wanderer to start with a spell/book, but 0 spellcasting skill
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02:12:52 <|amethyst> mumra:  it is possible, yes
02:13:37 <mumra> hi
02:13:38 <Sequell> mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
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02:13:44 <mumra> what is possible?
02:13:52 <mumra> !messages
02:13:53 <Sequell> (1/1) |amethyst said (2h 47m 32s ago): what's your username on github?
02:14:06 <|amethyst> oop
02:14:12 <|amethyst> minmay:  it is possible
02:14:16 <mumra> hehe
02:14:22 <|amethyst> mumra:  sorry, you stole my tab!
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02:14:43 <|amethyst> !tell dpeg you should create a github account
02:14:43 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
02:14:57 <mumra> |amethyst: chucksellick
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02:15:30 <Basil> |amethyst: no
02:15:41 <|amethyst> mumra:  invited
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02:16:12 <|amethyst> Basil:  you should get one so we can add you to the github org
02:16:51 <mumra> ah thx
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02:17:19 <Basil> !nick spicerack
02:17:19 <Sequell> Mapping spicerack => basil sage thyme mint allspice oregano tarragon rosemary
02:17:44 <|amethyst> !lg fenugreek
02:17:45 <Sequell> No games for fenugreek.
02:17:52 <|amethyst> !lg cumin
02:17:52 <Sequell> No games for cumin.
02:19:30 <|amethyst> doy:  ah, I figured out why I thought branches were missing
02:19:34 <Cheibriados> grey draconian caller (07q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 78-101 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Dam: 20, 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 1376 | Sp: sum.drakes | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

02:19:34 <Lightli> %??grey draconian caller
02:19:43 <mumra> gonna try and sort out webtiles a bit at some point
02:19:44 <Cheibriados> red draconian caller (07q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 78-101 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire | Vul: 08holy | XP: 1376 | Sp: searing breath (3d20) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], sum.drakes | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

02:19:44 <Lightli> %??red draconian caller
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02:20:44 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - eb37c66 #2109 : Nicholas Feinberg): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56372005
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02:20:48 <|amethyst> doy:  the sdl2 branches of the contribs don't seem to have ever been pushed, so our current versions are detached heads
02:21:14 <|amethyst> hm
02:21:21 <|amethyst> more timeouts to github
02:21:29 <doy> interesting
02:21:30 <|amethyst> it was being laggy for me a minute ago
02:21:39 <|amethyst> but seems to be working again?
02:21:41 <doy> well, someone should fix that
02:21:43 <doy> (:
02:21:55 <doy> and yeah, github has been going in and out for the past half hour or so
02:22:16 <|amethyst> I guess once we get the sdl2 branches worked out (poke Grunt) we should update our .gitmodules to point to github
02:22:24 <doy> yeah, that was my thought
02:22:40 <doy> since we're not likely to need to update submodules between now and the switchover
02:23:03 <Rotatell> Stable (0.16) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16.1-11-g651b585
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02:23:49 <doy> at the moment though, i'm going to sleep
02:25:18 <|amethyst> me too :)
02:25:32 <|amethyst> I'll update chei, CSZO, and CAO in the next few days
02:26:16 <|amethyst> and push chei and monster to github, rename monster's bleeding-edge-crawl branch to "master", and transfer those to the org
02:26:52 <|amethyst> dgamelaunch-config too but that's a little more effort because johnstein has push access
02:27:16 <|amethyst> we should probably also move the website repo over (and grant push access to the appropriate people)
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02:33:09 <rchandra> gammafunk: got another one in my next game - "P".  PDA and phial are its highlights
02:33:19 <rchandra> also if the shop makes a randart the name should start with its letter
02:33:33 <rchandra> P shop has the ring "Ulema" {rF+ rC+ MR+ Int-4 Dex+4}
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02:36:04 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.17-a0-293-g006947c (34)
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03:16:53 <Lightli> _There is an entrance to Hyongok's Humungous Hoard here.
03:17:04 <Lightli> is this a vault
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04:01:12 <chequers> why are harpies intelligent but not griffons
04:01:26 <chequers> this is completely unhistorically accurate
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04:26:38 <travis-ci> The build passed. (no-crawl-ref - ec03687 #2115 : Jesse Luehrs): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56376026
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04:40:41 <Lightli> I thought battlespheres fired at the same time you cast a spell
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05:02:47 <Lightli> You kill Natasha!  Vehumet accepts your kill.  Natasha screams in fury as she dies!  Your Conjurations skill increases to level 5! _Natasha, Servant of Life and Death comes into view.
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05:04:23 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 7f49f5a #2116 : Jesse Luehrs): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56376977
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05:24:02 <zxc232> the damage of high power bend space is both really low (1d4) and angers neutral monsters (corruption)
05:24:15 <zxc232> the damage component ought to be removed I think
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05:31:06 <zxc232> is  XP for summons/minions' kills still halved?
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05:39:32 <kvaak> yes
05:39:42 <kvaak> (assuming you do no damage yourself)
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06:27:52 <pikaro> !whichgod ogfe
06:27:53 <Sequell> 6 recent wins: 3x Ashenzari, Vehumet, The Shining One, Okawaru
06:27:57 <pikaro> oops sorry
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07:53:06 <Lasty_> !tell elliptic +30% mp for DE does seem huge. I'd be fine w/ changing the scaling -- +5%? +3%? I'm not sure what's best. I expect we'll see many balance changes to mp to make the flat scaling work. I'm not sold on the 90% modifier either . . .
07:53:07 <Sequell> Lasty_: OK, I'll let elliptic know.
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07:58:03 <Lasty_> ^git
07:58:05 <Lasty_> %git
07:58:05 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.17-a0-293-g006947c: Fix an autoexplore trap (minmay) 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=006947c7c370
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08:57:16 <Lasty_> Interesting post by tabstorm in GDD suggesting that Shields should be its own acquriement choice, apart from Armour.
09:00:54 <kvaak> there are three kinds of shields and one of them (bucklers) is found in plentiful quality inside elven halls
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09:01:01 <kvaak> er, quantity
09:01:06 <Lasty_> yeah
09:01:19 <Lasty_> I mean, arguably it's the same as saying "don't acquire shields at all"
09:01:29 <Lasty_> but jesus christ, you get so many shields from acquirement
09:01:37 <Lasty_> especially when you don't want them
09:01:47 <kvaak> so unless you were planning to stick to shields and absolutely not large shields you'd be pretty much guaranteed to get what you want
09:02:00 <Lasty_> and I have a sneaking suspicion that you can lower your chances of getting a shield by picking up and wearing every shield you find and then dropping it
09:02:21 <kvaak> I'm still under the impression what you wear or don't should never affect acquirement
09:02:33 <kvaak> then again 99% of my acqs are weapon or wand so *shrug*
09:02:45 <elliptic> Lasty_: that is definitely not the case unless something is bugged :P
09:02:45 <Sequell> elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
09:02:53 <Lasty_> it'd make jewelry acquirement way worse if you made that change . . .
09:03:22 <elliptic> if you've found one shield already, getting a shield should be no more common from acq than getting any other armour slot
09:03:32 <elliptic> actually you don't even need that
09:03:59 <kvaak> does stuff in shops count as "seen" for the purposes of acquirement?
09:04:12 <elliptic> if you have full armour slot then your chance of getting a shield from acq shouldn't be more than 1/6
09:04:15 <Lasty_> elliptic: so if you haven't seen a large shield yet it's more likely you'll acquire one?
09:04:19 <elliptic> Lasty_: no
09:04:30 <elliptic> Lasty_: that is not how armour acq works
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09:04:46 <Lasty_> I'm just trying to interpret your comments above :)
09:04:53 <elliptic> <Lasty_> and I have a sneaking suspicion that you can lower your chances of getting a shield by picking up and wearing every shield you find and then dropping it
09:05:06 <elliptic> I was saying that this suspicion is wrong :P
09:05:31 <Lasty_> <elliptic> if you've found one shield already, getting a shield should be no more common from acq than getting any other armour slot <elliptic> actually you don't even need that
09:05:38 <elliptic> yes
09:05:40 <Lasty_> I'm not sure what you meant here
09:05:47 <elliptic> the second comment means the first comment was wrong
09:05:51 <Lasty_> ah, gotcha
09:06:02 <elliptic> and what is true is "getting a shield should be no more common from acq than getting any other armour slot"
09:06:05 <elliptic> regardless of what you've found
09:06:08 <Lightli> uh
09:06:25 <Lightli> I just won a DEWz and the mp scaling might be slightly out of wack
09:06:25 <Lightli> !log .
09:06:25 <Sequell> 2969. darkli, XL27 DEWz, T:84773: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/darkli/morgue-darkli-20150330-140522.txt
09:06:30 <Lightli> Slightly.
09:06:33 <Lasty_> "if you have full armour slot then your chance of getting a shield from acq shouldn't be more than 1/6" -- if you have less than full armour slots, is the chance of shield acquirement smaller or larger?
09:06:49 <elliptic> Lasty_: larger, just like the chance for each of the other slots...
09:06:53 <Lasty_> Lightli: yeah, that doesn't look right
09:07:00 <elliptic> Lasty_: all your armour slots have the same probability normally
09:07:21 <elliptic> which IMO is pretty reasonable
09:07:29 <Lasty_> should be 54 * 1.3 * 0.9 + 9
09:07:31 <Lightli> DE, XL 27. staff of power, 27 spellcasting, randart cloak with +9 MP
09:07:36 <Lasty_> !calc 54 * 1.3 * 0.9 + 9
09:07:37 <Sequell> 72.18
09:07:42 <Lasty_> oh, staff of power?
09:07:45 <Lasty_> 54 * 1.3 * 0.9 + 9 + 13
09:08:00 <Lightli> Without it I only had 67 MP
09:08:06 <Lasty_> that gets 85 by my calc
09:08:06 <elliptic> looks like maybe the +MP items are getting hit by the racial multiplier?
09:08:10 <kvaak> that doesn't sound quite right
09:08:12 <kvaak> ?? staff of power
09:08:13 <Sequell> staff of power[1/1]: Gives 5 + 0.4*maxmp extra mp. The staff has its own supply of MP, which depletes rapidly when not wielded. So you can switch weapons without losing MP, but leave it in your backpack too long, and you'll find it empty again.
09:08:15 <elliptic> or just staff of power is bugged
09:08:15 <Lasty_> elliptic: they shouldn't be, I'm applying them after
09:08:17 <elliptic> oh
09:08:24 <Lasty_> oh, ah
09:08:29 <Lasty_> that doesn't do what I thought it did :p
09:08:30 <kvaak> huh, I never knew it scales with your maxmp
09:08:32 <elliptic> Lasty_: yes
09:08:33 <Lasty_> me neither
09:08:35 <Lightli> nor did I
09:08:47 <kvaak> I thought it was roughly equivalent to a ring of mp
09:08:47 <Lasty_> I guess that's a testament to how uniform mp was before
09:08:58 <Lasty_> I thought it was exactly 1.5 rings of MP
09:09:10 <Lightli> yeah, that it previously didn't mean anything because of all the stepdowns and the soft cap
09:09:38 <Lasty_> so yeah, I'm gonna need to fix that
09:09:45 <elliptic> Lasty_: btw I don't know if you saw but I went and reduced MP apts a bit already
09:09:50 <Lasty_> yeah, I saw that
09:10:03 <Lightli> wait, DE MP apt went down?
09:10:05 <elliptic> but I think reducing them more might end up being a good idea or just removing them
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09:10:06 <Lasty_> did you see my message?
09:10:27 <Lasty_> I think 5% might be a reasonable place to put them at w/ the old apts
09:10:33 <elliptic> yeah, wasn't clear by that whether you knew that they are no longer +30% :P
09:10:38 <Lightli> no
09:10:51 <kvaak> removing MP apts might hurt VS somewhat
09:10:53 <elliptic> Lasty_: people in ##crawl-dev here seemed to think that 5% might be too fine
09:10:57 <kvaak> since it's essentially hp
09:11:10 <Lightli> !apt vs
09:11:10 <Sequell> VS: Fighting: -1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 3, Shields: -1, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: -3, MP: 1
09:11:24 <Lightli> oh god if it still was +30% I would have 3 digit MP
09:11:30 <Lasty_> Also, I'm not sure how I feel about the 90% factor I put in -- I think it punishes the MP+0 races too much at low levels
09:11:36 <elliptic> kvaak: they are only MP +1 and after early game MP apts nearly didn't exist in the old system
09:11:43 <elliptic> so I doubt it
09:11:44 <kvaak> hm
09:13:26 <Lasty_> did anyone else have an opinion about the 90% factor"
09:13:27 <Lasty_> ?
09:13:47 <|amethyst> I think it sounds like DE don't need an extra 11% to their MP
09:14:08 <|amethyst> perhaps the scale could be compressed somewhat
09:14:18 <|amethyst> * 80% + N
09:14:19 <kvaak> apart from conjuration spamming, guardian spirit and VS I've never really found max mp that crucial
09:14:22 <|amethyst> instead of * 90%
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09:14:52 <Lasty_> |amethyst: is N a base mp in that formula? I could get behind that.
09:14:55 <kvaak> apart from extremes like Tr
09:15:31 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  yes, though it would still have to depend on level and spc I guess, since we don't want to give starting chars 5 MP or anything like that
09:15:43 <Lasty_> kvaak: the higher your max mp is, the faster your mp regens naturally, so having a high MP can allow you to use a modest amount of Conjurations or Summoning without resting much
09:15:57 <Lightli> yeah
09:16:08 <Lightli> I did not have to wait long to regain fire storm mana with 98 max mp
09:16:14 <Lasty_> yeah, I bet not
09:16:20 <elliptic> Lasty_: maybe current formula without the 90% thing and with no MP apts
09:16:22 <kvaak> Lasty_: I'm aware of that but I already mentioned cj
09:16:35 <kvaak> and while supportive summoning certainly exists it's not something I generally bother with
09:16:51 <Lightli> !apt mu
09:16:52 <Sequell> Mu: Fighting: 0, Short: -2, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Shields: -2, UC: -2*, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: -1, Charms: -2, Summ: -2, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -2, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: -2, Inv: -1*, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0
09:17:03 <wheals> # Your branch is ahead of 'origin/species_data' by 227 commits.
09:17:08 <wheals> man, i've been working hard
09:17:12 <elliptic> then I guess MP would max out naturally at 53 or 54 or some such for everyone, but it would be harder to get to the actual max than it was to get to 48-49 with the old system
09:17:42 <Lasty_> elliptic: I think that would be pretty good, though +mp muts will be great.
09:17:53 <Lightli> I was sitting at 67 without the staff of power and that was as a DE
09:18:02 <Lasty_> and I think there's some value to being able to make some races +/- mp
09:18:10 <elliptic> Lightli: you also have a MP+9 cloak
09:18:12 <Lightli> (i.e. 58 mp max without any equipment on)
09:18:14 <Lasty_> 100% mp and 3-5% apts would work I think
09:18:53 <kvaak> 5%? as in, +2 max mp at 50?
09:19:09 <Lasty_> well, +2.5
09:19:26 <Lasty_> It does rounding, so fractions matter
09:19:30 <kvaak> that sounds negligible at best
09:20:14 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07[species_data] * 0.17-a0-328-ge015a4a2: Merge branch 'master' into species_data 10(16 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e015a4a23e69
09:20:14 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07[species_data] * 0.17-a0-329-ga4f37a3: Add save compat for the fake mutations that were made real. 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a4f37a390b7b
09:20:15 <Lasty_> Yeah, there's a fine line between negligible and too extreme.
09:20:16 <|amethyst> Could make "MP aptitude" just +maxmp
09:20:21 <|amethyst> so it matters more early
09:20:28 <|amethyst> but doesn't scale
09:20:33 <elliptic> Lasty_: I think maybe just making a small handful of races be +/- 10% MP would be better (this is what reaverb suggested)
09:20:35 <Lasty_> |amethyst: oh, hmm. That's a thought.
09:20:41 <wheals> |amethyst: do you have any concerns about merging species_data into master?
09:20:54 <elliptic> |amethyst: the thing is that spellcasting apt already does that
09:20:58 <Lasty_> elliptic: I suppose I'm fine with that too. Really I just want to ditch the 90% factor. The more I think about it, the less I like it.
09:21:38 <|amethyst> elliptic:  oh, because only book classes care about MP anyway...
09:21:46 <|amethyst> elliptic:  s/MP/starting MP/
09:21:50 <elliptic> !apt mp
09:21:51 <Sequell> MP: Sp: 3!, DE: 3!, Fe: 2, Dg: 2, HE: 2, Fo: 1, VS: 1, Te: 1, DD: 0, Vp: 0, Dr: 0, Gr: 0, Ds: 0, Na: 0, Og: 0, Hu: 0, Op: 0, Mf: 0, Ko: 0, Mu: 0, HO: 0, Ha: 0, Gh: -1, Ce: -1, Tr: -2*, Mi: -2*
09:22:18 <elliptic> like Tr and maybe one of the others could be -1 apt, DE and maybe one of the others could be +1 apt, all others at 0
09:22:50 <|amethyst> hm, how are HO and halflings doing?
09:22:57 <|amethyst> they have -3 spc
09:22:58 <Lightli> I guess VS for +1 apt?
09:23:09 <elliptic> |amethyst: at least they have good xp apts, which also matter
09:23:21 <elliptic> Lightli: VS really doesn't need a buff IMO :P
09:23:23 <|amethyst> dg I guess was the other
09:23:26 <Lightli> yeah Dg then
09:23:30 <|amethyst> +2 mp, -2 spc
09:24:02 <elliptic> Dg MP is probably quite bad for a while now yeah
09:24:06 <Lasty_> I suppose VS can stand a nerf . . .
09:24:08 <elliptic> which is sort of unfortunate
09:24:35 <Lasty_> What if aptitude was +x flat mp and +5% total mp?
09:24:43 <Lasty_> gives a slightly bigger early game effect
09:24:43 <wheals> so, did anybody have any issues with merging it?
09:24:52 <wheals> would be good to merge it before we mess around with mp apts...
09:25:02 <Lasty_> wheals: merging what now?
09:25:14 <wheals> species data refactoring branch
09:25:27 <|amethyst> wheals:  why is it  static const map<species_type, species_def> species_data ?
09:25:31 <elliptic> Lasty_: IMO that's unnecessarily complicated - I'd prefer just going with +x flat MP if we think it's necessary
09:25:39 <|amethyst> wheals:  oh, sorry, looking at the first commit
09:25:53 <wheals> hm? pretty sure it still is
09:26:10 <elliptic> wheals: uh, sorry (but feel free to revert the MP apt change commit, it will need more changes for sure)
09:26:10 <wheals> i went with that since you suggested that as a replacement for data_index :)
09:26:13 <|amethyst> wheals:  yeah, but species_def is more than just a const char * now :)
09:26:18 <wheals> ah yeah :P
09:26:46 <wheals> the array mapping thing did have one advantage -- compile check
09:26:53 <wheals> map::size isn't contexpr of course
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09:28:36 <elliptic> I'm warming up to |amethyst's "make apts +x MP" idea because of Dg
09:29:02 <elliptic> where x would probably be between -1 and 2 I'd say?
09:30:00 <|amethyst> wheals:  looking over the tags.cc stuff
09:33:12 <|amethyst> wheals:  which all looks reasonable
09:34:54 <wheals> hm
09:34:57 <wheals> oh, i'm dumb
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09:35:34 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - d125177 #2117 : Jesse Luehrs): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56413115
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09:36:02 <|amethyst> that's a weird error from travis
09:36:14 <|amethyst> git checkout -qf d12517726e1fa0399d30aa543672fbd71d1e7de2
09:36:14 <|amethyst> fatal: reference is not a tree: d12517726e1fa0399d30aa543672fbd71d1e7de2
09:36:18 <|amethyst> %git d1251772
09:36:18 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit d1251772 (git returned 128)
09:36:32 <wheals> sounds a bit like a submodule problem?
09:36:32 <doy> yeah, i assume just github failing again
09:36:45 <|amethyst> no, this is crawl-ref
09:36:53 <|amethyst> doy:  well, chei doesn't see that commit either
09:36:55 <wheals> oh, i see
09:36:59 <|amethyst> did you do a force push at some point
09:37:22 <|amethyst> locally it says d1251772 is "also retry things during dependency installation" by doy
09:37:43 <|amethyst> but that commit isn't in master
09:37:58 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07[species_data] * 0.17-a0-330-gfdd887a: Fix combo = DrBe. 10(27 seconds ago, 2 files, 3+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fdd887ac49e3
09:38:00 <Lasty_> elliptic: I think -2 to +3 isn't unreasonable for +x mp apts
09:38:10 <doy> ...huh
09:38:18 <Lasty_> elliptic: it makes a big different in the early dungeon and then very little later
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09:38:27 <doy> d125177...006947c master     -> origin/master  (forced update)
09:38:30 <doy> when i pulled
09:38:41 <kvaak> Lasty_: that isn't necessarily a bad thing
09:38:42 <doy> i think github may have rolled back some db state, maybe?
09:38:44 <elliptic> Lasty_: +3 sounds too large to me for an XL 1 differential... again, this is on top of spellcasting apt differentials
09:38:52 <wheals> i don't think this is my fault at least! :)
09:38:59 <kvaak> (personally I also like the idea of a flat mp bonus/penalty)
09:39:09 <doy> i'll repush
09:39:14 <elliptic> Lasty_: and -2 probably means that all trolls have 0 MP to start
09:39:31 <Lasty_> elliptic: starting with 0 mp is already a thing that happens
09:39:39 <wheals> not on trwz i assume
09:39:45 <Lasty_> Ah, I see what you mean
09:39:47 <Lasty_> hmm
09:39:49 <elliptic> not on stuff like TrFE either unless that changed
09:39:59 <elliptic> think of the TrEEs
09:40:23 <Lasty_> do troll elementalists start with < 1 Spellcasting? If so, they'd be at 0 mp even with a -1 mp apt
09:40:39 <|amethyst> 1.2 spc
09:40:48 <elliptic> they start with 1.2 spellcasting but they are still at only MP 1 currently
09:40:51 <Lasty_> ok, so -1 flat apt might be okay
09:41:07 <elliptic> but I guess that is with -10% MP and that 90% thing both
09:41:09 <Lasty_> I suppose I see your point about -1 to +2
09:41:15 <Lasty_> oh ah
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09:41:31 <Lasty_> what's a 0.16 troll start w/?
09:42:00 <|amethyst> 0.16 trfe has 2mp
09:42:01 <elliptic> 2 MP for TrEE
09:42:06 <Lasty_> ah
09:42:47 <elliptic> 3 MP for TrWz
09:42:58 <elliptic> (2.0 spellcasting)
09:42:58 <|amethyst> tram has 1.0 spc
09:43:06 <doy> oh!
09:43:06 <|amethyst> but that doesn't make a difference
09:43:06 <doy> whoops
09:43:08 <Lasty_> We could also start all races with 1 mp default before these calculations . . .
09:43:09 <doy> i know what it was
09:43:22 <|amethyst> hm
09:43:26 <doy> i accidentally started pushing to github
09:43:28 <elliptic> Lasty_: still -2 would mean that trolls are stuck at 1 MP for a while
09:43:32 <kvaak> huh, I could've sworn vamp didn't work on durably summoned monsters
09:43:34 <|amethyst> doy:  oh
09:43:35 <kvaak> guess not
09:43:36 <doy> and so the mirroring script is wiping out my commits
09:43:38 <doy> (:
09:43:38 <|amethyst> doy:  yeah, don't do that :)
09:43:39 <Lasty_> elliptic: yeah, I already came around on -1 to +2 :)
09:44:21 <Lasty_> I suppose if we want a race to have +10% mp we can add it as an intrensic mutation instead of an aptitude
09:44:24 <|amethyst> doy:  that's a lot less mysterious than I had hoped but I guess that's good :)
09:44:45 <Cheibriados> 03doy02 07* 0.17-a0-294-g53b308e: also retry things during dependency installation 10(69 minutes ago, 1 file, 21+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=53b308ef5f88
09:44:53 <elliptic> !apt mp
09:44:53 <Sequell> MP: Sp: 3!, DE: 3!, Dg: 2, Fe: 2, HE: 2, Te: 1, Fo: 1, VS: 1, Og: 0, Ha: 0, DD: 0, Gr: 0, Op: 0, Vp: 0, Mf: 0, Dr: 0, Na: 0, Ko: 0, Mu: 0, HO: 0, Ds: 0, Hu: 0, Gh: -1, Ce: -1, Tr: -2*, Mi: -2*
09:45:00 <doy> also explains why chei wasn't reporting my commits(:
09:46:44 <elliptic> how about... DE Dg +2, Sp Fe HE Te VS +1, Gh Tr Mi -1
09:47:17 <elliptic> and remove the 90%
09:47:21 <elliptic> what would that look like
09:47:55 <Lasty_> I feel good about that. As an alternate proposal, what you just said but give Dg +1 and +10%mp mutation
09:49:53 <Lasty_> your proposal would look like DE & DG: 3+Splcasting mp at XL1, 56 max mp; Gh/Tr/Mi 0 + Splcasting mp at XL1, 53 max mp.
09:50:19 <Lasty_> A DeWz would have 7 mp at XL1
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09:50:54 <Lasty_> A DgFE would have 4
09:50:56 <wheals> interesting, that merge commit earlier needs 8 hex digits to be unambiguous
09:51:48 <|amethyst> wheals: nice :)
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09:52:12 <wheals> so, i think i will push now
09:52:41 <wheals> i'll be back in an hour if there are issues
09:52:49 <wheals> aw crap
09:53:33 <wheals> ran into a git pull --rebase unreason
09:54:16 <|amethyst> ?
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09:55:13 <wheals> merged in species_data locally before doy pushed that last, then i pulled to be able to push again and it started rebasing everything :P
09:55:47 <wheals> i guess that isn't really harmful
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-68-gbaa8440: Move species abbreviations to data. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 177+ 35-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=baa84408dcf4
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-69-g1a90e23: Clear up player::*_name. 10(5 weeks ago, 10 files, 42+ 32-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1a90e2318ced
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-70-g7e63f4b: Replace species_name's bool parameters with an enum. 10(5 weeks ago, 8 files, 34+ 29-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7e63f4b6602b
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-71-g21960b7: Move species names into data. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 57+ 109-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=21960b71a92d
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-72-g344e89d: Move species xp/hp/mp to data (BREAKS GEN-APT.PL!). 10(5 weeks ago, 3 files, 49+ 127-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=344e89dc77da
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-73-g54dc7ba: Move player<->monster species link into data. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 41+ 90-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=54dc7bad98fb
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-74-gf294b30: Remove player genuses. 10(5 weeks ago, 29 files, 110+ 92-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f294b304eee9
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-75-ga482107: Move hair stats to data. 10(5 weeks ago, 7 files, 24+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a48210712644
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-76-g17709f8: Move species habitats to data. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 45+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=17709f87ddb5
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-77-ge67f748: Move undeadness to data. 10(5 weeks ago, 2 files, 50+ 59-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e67f7486a904
09:56:05 <Cheibriados> ... and 28 more commits
09:57:02 * wheals casts a spell. A raging storm of commits appears! The great blast of code engulfs ##crawl-dev!
09:58:58 <ebering> well this probably reks that holiness bitfield patch I wrote
09:59:00 <ebering> rip patch
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09:59:38 <wheals> You smell rotting patches. Yum!
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10:04:18 <elliptic> okay so I guess that merge moved MP apts to species-data.h (and reset them to their old values)
10:04:46 <elliptic> so we are back to +30% MP DE for now :P
10:04:48 <Lasty_> elliptic: if you're able to commit, would you be interested in commiting something like your suggestion?
10:04:57 <Lasty_> Also, how do you feel about +10% mp demigods?
10:05:17 <elliptic> yeah I can do it
10:05:21 <Lasty_> sweet
10:06:01 <elliptic> I'm fine with demigods having +10% MP mutation (though I'm not sure it is necessary), I'm not going to add it now though
10:06:08 <Lasty_> k
10:06:11 <Lasty_> I might add that later
10:06:36 <Lightli> I assume you're going to wait to push that to trunk until after the mp apt change :v
10:06:49 <kvaak> Dgs will be atheist humans with worse apts no more
10:06:50 <kvaak> soon
10:07:04 <Lasty_> kvaak: they always had better mp :p
10:07:20 <Lightli> they already weren't, higher stats, higher HP/MP, innate Sustain Abilities...
10:07:23 <kvaak> they never had more mp than deep elves!!!
10:07:34 <kvaak> also what's that innate sustab thing anyway and when was it added
10:07:35 <Lasty_> well, in practice they still won't
10:07:42 <Lasty_> +3 spellcasting apt vs -2 :p
10:07:54 <Lasty_> kvaak: that was some bloaxism
10:07:57 <Lasty_> I don't know why it got added
10:08:27 <Lasty_> but it was the same time they got 2x choice every three levels
10:08:35 <Lasty_> (which, in fairness, I feel reasonably good about)
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10:10:47 <elliptic> so did the species_data change break !apt or did someone fix that beforehand?
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10:17:18 <kvaak> ?? shield[5
10:17:19 <Sequell> shield[5/6]: You will block a missile if a random number up to 130% of the missile to-hit is less than a random number (on 2 dice) up to 2/3 of your SH; a melee instead uses a random number up to 15 + to-hit / 2. Both to-pass-shield values are inflated by 5 * (previous blocks this turn)^2.
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10:17:40 <kvaak> so the shield penalty doesn't even kick in until you actually stop an attack
10:17:48 <kvaak> why do people consider this a big deal
10:18:34 <Lasty_> Because some players seem to play constantly surrounded by 8 monsters
10:18:45 <Lasty_> or at least that's what I gather from all the talk of axes being "optimal"
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10:21:17 <johnstein> wheals: for the "hair and large rocks" commit a482107 am I reading it correctly that any large species can throw rocks? (bool species_can_throw_large_rocks).
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10:31:30 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.17-a0-333-g6c37a9f: MP formula changes. 10(8 minutes ago, 4 files, 16+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6c37a9fc6e51
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10:41:01 <Lightli> RIP 98 MP DE
10:41:34 <kvaak> rip and tear
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10:46:50 <elliptic> DE with staff of power and two rings of magical power is still 108 MP
10:47:03 <elliptic> that's really staff of power's fault though
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10:47:14 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 006947c #2118 : Nicholas Feinberg): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56418956
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10:47:30 <kvaak> was staff of power always like that?
10:47:34 <kvaak> %git :/over
10:47:34 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.17-a0-291-g1c7c673: New overflow vault 10(9 days ago, 1 file, 20+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1c7c673c5124
10:47:50 <elliptic> it used to be hit by the "halved-over-50" thing
10:48:47 <kvaak> I meant the maxmp scaling, that's 2013 which means pretty much every occasion I've bothered using a staff of power predates it
10:49:31 <elliptic> octopode with staff of power and 8 rings of magical power is 181 MP
10:49:53 <elliptic> can go higher with MP equipment and mutations and such of course
10:50:08 <kvaak> ?? Hat of pondering
10:50:08 <Sequell> hat of pondering[1/2]: +3 hat with {ponderousness}, MR+, +5 int and +10 MP. Sometimes Gastronok is wearing it!
10:50:11 <elliptic> 126 without the staff of power
10:50:18 <kvaak> ooh it's a whopping +10
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10:50:34 <elliptic> +14 with staff of power of course
10:50:47 <johnstein> how can an unseen horror spawn on D7? mon-pick-data says 10 is the min floor. player was on the floor for 5 turns so no OOD from that. map an kmap are blank
10:50:59 <johnstein> !lg advil x=map,kmap
10:50:59 <Sequell> 391. [map=;killermap=] advil the Martial Artist (L8 VSMo), slain by an unseen horror on D:7 on 2015-03-30 15:30:56, with 868 points after 5050 turns and 0:32:21.
10:51:05 <elliptic> johnstein: OODs happen all the time
10:51:09 <johnstein> oh
10:51:11 <elliptic> they just become more serious with time
10:51:33 <kvaak> and an unseen horror on d7 isn't /that/ rare
10:51:37 <johnstein> didn't know that. thought it was only 8s from vaults or from farming a floor
10:52:07 <kvaak> !lg * killer=unseen_horror d recent s=place o=place
10:52:09 <Sequell> 2868 games for * (killer=unseen_horror d recent): 320x D:9, 280x D:8, 245x D:7, 237x D:6, 142x D:5, 13x D:4, 2x D:3, 5x D:2, 39x D:15, 24x D:14, 42x D:13, 124x D:12, 411x D:11, 974x D:10, 10x D:1
10:53:02 <johnstein> yea I did know it happened regularly. was just wondering about the underlying mechanism
10:53:38 <johnstein> didn't consider that it could just happen. I always blamed it on the above (adults and farming)
10:53:46 <elliptic> iirc up to 5 levels OOD is possible normally, though less than that on the first few levels
10:53:59 <elliptic> I haven't looked at the OOD code recently though
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10:55:23 <johnstein> thanks elliptic / kvaak
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11:00:15 <FiftyNine> Hello. I have a question. Does Lucy's banish still caps at 100 power?
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11:02:45 <kvaak> yes
11:02:46 <kvaak> ?? challenge[18
11:02:47 <Sequell> challenge[18/27]: Pacify Ereshkigal.
11:02:53 <kvaak> is this even possible anymore
11:04:03 <FiftyNine> Alright, so but then ingame hint for chance of successful banishment works wrong
11:04:30 <FiftyNine> Because it shows higher chance if I raise invo over 10.5
11:04:40 <FiftyNine> on the same monster
11:04:58 <FiftyNine> Or rather same kind of monster
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11:07:12 <FiftyNine> Also, I'm looking at the code for banishment here and don't see where this cap is applied http://pastebin.com/VF0ikLdm
11:08:46 <wheals> it's in zap-data.h i think
11:09:06 <wheals> i thought i accounted for that :|
11:09:29 <wheals> i guess i only accounted for power caps for spells
11:10:00 <kvaak> oh, banish doesn't have a power cap?
11:10:01 <wheals> !cmd !apt
11:10:02 <Sequell> Built-in: !apt => https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_sequell/blob/master/commands/apt.pl
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11:10:50 <elliptic> looks like xp/hp/mp !apt will break
11:11:13 <elliptic> IMO someone good with perl should fix that script
11:11:13 <wheals> yeah
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11:11:30 <wheals> it would probably be easier to make it make aptitudes.txt and then parse that
11:11:47 <wheals> no need to duplicate the parsing
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11:11:55 <elliptic> that's true
11:12:24 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
11:12:31 <kvaak> !srcr zap-data.h
11:12:36 <kvaak> !src zap-data.h
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11:12:46 <wheals> !apt r human
11:12:47 <Sequell> Could not understand "r"
11:12:49 <wheals> !apt human r
11:12:50 <Sequell> Could not understand "r"
11:13:01 <kvaak> well it says 100 there alright
11:13:08 <wheals> seems like there's some dead code too
11:13:09 <elliptic> wheals: so is the banish chance bug that the displayed chance is incorrect or that banish power isn't being capped?
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11:13:20 <wheals> that it isn't being displayed, i beleive
11:13:25 <wheals> debug mode should tell
11:13:55 <wheals> !apt human -so
11:13:55 <Sequell> Could not understand "-so"
11:14:16 <wheals> wonder what's up with check_long_option
11:15:05 <kvaak> a quick test in wizmode says it's capped
11:15:36 <kvaak> either that or 100 banishments isn't enough to banish an acid blob at 9% chance
11:15:51 <kvaak> wait what
11:16:09 <elliptic> !calc 0.91**100
11:16:10 <Sequell> 0
11:16:13 <elliptic> thanks
11:16:24 <wheals> Sequell:-approved math
11:17:03 <FiftyNine> Yeah, I just checked, cap is in place. It's stored in zap-data and applied in zappy() in beam.cc
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11:19:11 <wheals> !apt test
11:19:11 <Sequell> Could not understand "test"
11:20:31 <Cheibriados> acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 78-115 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(160), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 2419 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: plant.

11:20:31 <kvaak> %?? acid blob
11:20:40 <kvaak> ?? magic resistance[2
11:20:41 <Sequell> magic resistance[2/5]: Chances of anything resisting a spell are calculated like this: (magic resistance + 100 - the spells power) is compared to ( random2(100) + random2(101) ) and if the random numbers are less the spell is negated.
11:21:15 <kvaak> if this is correct shouldn't a 100-power banish have a ~8% chance of banishing an acid blob
11:22:51 <wheals> there is a stepdown
11:23:32 <kvaak> ?? spellpower
11:23:33 <Sequell> spellpower ~ spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT/10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66.
11:23:34 <kvaak> this?
11:24:40 <kvaak> sounds about right, that'd give a 75 (effective) power banishment a ~1% chance of working on an acid blob
11:24:48 <kvaak> although for some reason ingame it's displayed as 0
11:25:05 <Bloax> hm
11:25:13 <Bloax> how is invocations power calculated?
11:25:16 <Bloax> invocs*???
11:25:32 <wheals> no, not that
11:25:43 <wheals> int ench_power_stepdown(int pow) {     return stepdown_value(pow, 30, 40, 100, 120); }
11:27:34 <wheals> so it caps at 100 power, but that's actually 30 + 70/2 + 25/2
11:27:44 <wheals> !calc 30 + 35 + 12
11:27:45 <Sequell> 77
11:28:48 <wheals> !cmd !stepdown
11:28:48 <Sequell> No command !stepdown
11:28:52 <wheals> fr
11:29:06 <kvaak> that still doesn't explain why it says 0% ingame
11:30:15 <elliptic> that stepdown calculation isn't right
11:31:33 <elliptic> I believe 100 gets stepped down to 70 by that
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11:31:57 <wheals> !source stepdown_value
11:31:57 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/stepdown.cc;hb=HEAD#l48
11:32:47 <elliptic> (40 + 30*log2(1+(100-40)/30))
11:32:59 <wheals> does that mean ??spell power is flat out wrong too
11:33:17 <elliptic> well it is approximately true
11:33:24 <elliptic> if you understand what it means
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11:33:53 <elliptic> the actual formula is a smoothed version of what is in spell_power
11:34:30 <elliptic> kvaak: anyway 70 power gives <1% chance of working on 160 MR, so that explains it
11:34:35 <kvaak> yes
11:35:02 <kvaak> !calc 99.46**100
11:35:03 <Sequell> 58189562219166398642620668370577029802773338458132977587902662644388018136832353519797107709786112629859124933026591855329728886368792513811887256487492545238263321716298851930334587638135615609896960
11:35:06 <kvaak> er
11:35:12 <kvaak> !calc 0.9946**100
11:35:13 <Sequell> 0.58
11:35:47 <wheals> !learn add goodsequell <Sequell> 58189562219166398642620668370577029802773338458132977587902662644388018136832353519797107709786112629859124933026591855329728886368792513811887256487492545238263321716298851930334587638135615609896960
11:35:47 <Sequell> goodsequell[14/14]: <Sequell> 58189562219166398642620668370577029802773338458132977587902662644388018136832353519797107709786112629859124933026591855329728886368792513811887256487492545238263321716298851930334587638135615609896960
11:36:49 <wheals> looks like the chance is 0.6%, specifically
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11:40:37 <wheals> actually this should be easy
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11:46:30 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-334-g53cf180: Fix displayed chance for Banishment past cap (FiftyNine). 10(55 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=53cf180df072
11:48:15 <wheals> "I think the move in Crawl flavouring has been to de-gender stuff as much as possible. No reason why reality should interfere with that agenda."
11:48:30 <wheals> i kind of liked female sirens but this is ridiculous
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11:51:06 <Bloax> oh don't forget gods
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11:55:43 <wheals> wow, crawlcode is very fond of "momentarily"
11:56:15 <Bloax> You feel momentarily disoriented.
11:56:55 <wheals> The leprechaun hits you!   You feel monetarily disoriented.
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11:58:59 <Bloax> The leprechaun shouts, "What are you, a monk?"
11:59:08 -!- GoblinBomb has quit [Client Quit]
11:59:11 <Bloax> oh wait that's maurice the not-leprechaun
11:59:25 <elliptic> !stepdown 100 30 40
11:59:25 <Sequell> 70
11:59:34 <elliptic> !stepdown 500 50
11:59:34 <Sequell> 172
11:59:42 <elliptic> wheals: ^
11:59:52 <wheals> heh
11:59:53 <wheals> thanks
11:59:57 <wheals> !cmd !stepdown
11:59:57 <Sequell> Command: !stepdown => .echo $(if (< (int $1) (int ${3:-${2}})) $1 (+ (- ${3:-${2}} $2) (stepdown (- $1 (- ${3:-${2}} $2)) $2)))
12:03:47 <elliptic> !learn add !help:!stepdown Calculates stepdown_value(int base_value, int stepping, int first_step). Here first_step = stepping by default. Example: "!stepdown n 50" for the spellpower stepdown.
12:03:47 <Sequell> !help:!stepdown[1/1]: Calculates stepdown_value(int base_value, int stepping, int first_step). Here first_step = stepping by default. Example: "!stepdown n 50" for the spellpower stepdown.
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12:05:51 <elliptic> !learn edit !help:!stepdown s/$/ Doesn't apply a ceiling_value./
12:05:51 <Sequell> !help:!stepdown[1/1]: Calculates stepdown_value(int base_value, int stepping, int first_step). Here first_step = stepping by default. Example: "!stepdown n 50" for the spellpower stepdown. Doesn't apply a ceiling_value.
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12:16:29 <MarvinPA> what's a good message for the case where you gozag-distract something but there's no actual gold in los (because it's the future and gold distraction has been changed into a player duration rather than a property of the stack of gold)
12:16:51 <wheals> they get distracted by the bling you're wearing
12:17:02 <MarvinPA> i have "is distracted by your gold" but what about the entirely likely case where you also are carrying 0 gold!
12:17:42 <wheals> why not make it like pbd?
12:17:42 <wheals> so you need both
12:17:42 <wheals> er
12:17:46 <wheals> that wouldn't fix the issue
12:17:48 <wheals> never mind
12:18:12 <MarvinPA> well that would require there to be gold on the floor, do you mean? so it could say "is distracted by the nearby gold" like it does currently
12:18:46 <wheals> yeah, but i assume the issue you have is it making you not pick up the gold until the duration runs out
12:18:54 <wheals> your issue with the current state, that is
12:19:18 <MarvinPA> yeah, plus the fact that it prevents you from pushing forwards out of los of the old gold
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12:20:21 <MarvinPA> anyway i think really it's a non-issue because nobody will ever trigger gold distraction and then move out of los of the gold and also be carrying 0 gold
12:20:34 <wheals> but if they drop it all...!
12:20:54 <elliptic> MarvinPA: if qw ever played gozag
12:21:18 <MarvinPA> heh
12:21:33 <elliptic> (monks get free admission to gozag, right? that's the only way qw would be able to worship)
12:21:34 <Lasty_> elliptic: I'll push a change for staff of power when I get home.
12:21:35 <MarvinPA> you'll just have to teach qw to shop before teaching it to gozag!
12:21:46 <MarvinPA> they do, yeah
12:21:47 <elliptic> Lasty_: sounds good
12:21:58 <Lasty_> Setting it to a flat +15 or just +40% base mp only each seem fine to me . . .
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12:26:04 <Grunt> todo teach gw to gozag
12:26:09 <Grunt> (todo teach gw to shop)
12:26:14 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.17-a0-334-g53cf180 (34)
12:26:27 <Grunt> actually what I'd really like to do is teach gw to Ash and Fedhas
12:27:47 <FiftyNine> Teach qw to 15rune
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12:29:00 <ZChris13> these bots are getting out of hand
12:29:03 <wheals> teach qw to love
12:29:17 <Grunt> qw sacrificed love.
12:29:20 <Grunt> qw is now hated by all.
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12:35:46 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-335-g43b248c: Add French spacing fixes. 10(11 minutes ago, 210 files, 695+ 693-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=43b248c2d0ca
12:35:46 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-336-g61bc62d: Remove dead code. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 13-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=61bc62d1e140
12:35:46 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-337-gd92d73d: Make a const cast explicit. 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d92d73dc70f6
12:38:05 <MarvinPA> oh hm does species_data move racial MR and stealth to data?
12:38:54 <MarvinPA> since i was meaning to try and have that be displayed on ?% or somewhere, so it's probably actually feasible to do so now
12:39:42 <wheals> yeah, should be!
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12:40:15 <wheals> just need to add it to the regex at the end of util/gen-apt.pl and modify the template i guess
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13:01:09 <MarvinPA> !tell PleasingFungus "I haven't looked into it, but it seems like it'd be easy enough [...]" truly spoken like someone who has never seen output.cc
13:01:09 <Sequell> MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know.
13:02:48 <|amethyst> have to do it in two places too
13:02:50 <|amethyst> because webtiles
13:03:44 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-338-g41518f4: Make being in water stop prevent sticky flame (#7200). 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=41518f4c991d
13:03:44 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-339-g972732a: Remove some little-used commands. 10(8 minutes ago, 7 files, 1+ 141-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=972732a5e148
13:03:44 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-340-gfc496bd: Clean up some dead fruit code. 10(6 minutes ago, 2 files, 1+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fc496bdfc3e4
13:03:52 <|amethyst> but seems easier than, say, adding LO temperature gauge
13:04:09 <MarvinPA> true, a lot of the mess in there is LO-related
13:04:17 <MarvinPA> dead fruit :'(
13:05:32 <ZChris13> what's up with lava orcs
13:05:38 <ZChris13> are they still going to happen ever
13:05:40 <MarvinPA> oh, i think removal of " [ ] commands merits some discussion
13:05:57 <MarvinPA> i use(d?) those and i think other people do also?
13:06:07 <Lasty_> I use " [ ] all the time
13:06:14 <|amethyst> are you supposed to use % now or something?
13:06:30 <|amethyst> because you can't see % at the same time as other things
13:06:31 <MarvinPA> apparently so, which is not great when some stuff doesn't fit on it
13:06:53 <|amethyst> yeah, doesn't % strip down artefact names like the Wp: line?
13:06:56 <MarvinPA> i don't use ] i guess, but the other two for sure i use plenty
13:07:35 <MarvinPA> a - +15 Maxwell's patent armour {-Cast -Tele rEl
13:07:43 <MarvinPA> maybe for weapons it does yeah
13:08:31 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:09:02 <|amethyst> I imagine ] is useful for the people who do all item management through the i screen
13:09:20 <MarvinPA> i think ] was proposed recently-ish as a command that could be repurposed into an equipment menu?
13:09:35 <|amethyst> ?
13:09:40 <|amethyst> oh
13:09:44 <MarvinPA> like, a unified menu rather than W/P/w
13:09:45 <|amethyst> showing both worn and wearable
13:10:00 <|amethyst> rather than just worn as it does now
13:10:08 <MarvinPA> not sure, maybe it'd just list every slot, then you select a slot, then an item
13:10:18 <elliptic> I've never used "[] myself but I've had people spectating me ask me to press them
13:10:31 <G-Flex> <MarvinPA> like, a unified menu rather than W/P/w
13:10:38 <G-Flex> but then how will I wield my ring of shaolin
13:10:46 <G-Flex> or wear my double sword as a hat
13:10:55 <|amethyst> } seems significantly more marginal than "[
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13:12:12 <MarvinPA> anyway yeah, i would quite like to revert 972732a
13:12:15 <johnstein> have there been many discussions on moving strategic items out of inv? I saw that on the 0.17 plan and had an idea. but wanted to do research on it first
13:12:22 <wheals> ok, do so
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13:12:44 <G-Flex> strategic items?
13:12:45 <wheals> i did say i would be fine if it turned out anybody actually used them :)
13:13:07 <ZChris13> I use ][
13:13:19 <johnstein> strategic consumables I meant
13:13:24 <PleasingFungus> !send wheals dead fruit code
13:13:25 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:13:25 <Sequell> Sending dead fruit code to wheals.
13:13:36 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: I try not to look at that file, yes
13:13:37 <wheals> mm, dead fruit
13:13:37 <Sequell> wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:13:41 <|amethyst> experience, benemut, acquirement, ...
13:13:44 <wheals> hi eoc
13:13:45 <wheals> !messages
13:13:45 <Sequell> (1/1) ChrisOelmueller said (50s ago): uhm wow i used those all the time and they're much better than % also
13:13:49 <PleasingFungus> hahaha
13:14:11 <elliptic> |amethyst: I think it's more intended for stuff people don't use immediately, like enchant weapon/armour
13:14:14 <|amethyst> ah
13:14:18 <PleasingFungus> fwiw I also used [ pretty often (and occasionally ")
13:14:21 <elliptic> to save room in inventory
13:14:30 <wheals> i don't really see any use for them, but i guess other people do
13:14:33 <PleasingFungus> I don't feel strongly about them tho
13:14:34 <elliptic> without making people drop them and travel back to them to use them
13:14:43 <PleasingFungus> literally never used ] or knew it existed
13:14:58 <|amethyst> wheals:  I guess the big issue is that % is modal while those aren't
13:15:13 <elliptic> honestly I don't think it is worth adding an entire new category for just enchant weapon/armour, maybe there's something else relevant I'm forgetting about though
13:15:13 <wheals> huh?
13:15:14 <|amethyst> wheals:  you can't issue most commands from the % screen, and once you leave you can't see what you were just looking at
13:15:25 <|amethyst> wheals:  well, "[ I mean, ] is plenty modal
13:15:32 <wheals> ah, i see
13:15:47 <elliptic> johnstein: which items would this include? this discussion demonstrates that we aren't really sure what the proposal even is exactly
13:15:51 <wheals> the ones that dump into your message windows are even more useless since they obscure your messages...
13:16:02 <wheals> but i don't have to use them, of course
13:16:10 <johnstein> !xp !benemut ?ew ?ea ?acq
13:16:14 <johnstein> elliptic: ^
13:16:18 <|amethyst> it would be nice if there were a key to clear temp messages
13:16:22 <MarvinPA> i do agree with removing ] personally (unless/until it becomes some kind of unified equipment menu for those who want such a thing)
13:16:27 <|amethyst> once you're done with them
13:16:43 <PleasingFungus> <MarvinPA> not sure, maybe it'd just list every slot, then you select a slot, then an item <- iirc that was the plan? I forget
13:17:05 <PleasingFungus> wow, that was a completely useless thing to say...
13:17:09 <elliptic> johnstein: okay, so in that case I personally don't think it is worth it to add a new category of item effectively just to save two inventory slots, but maybe other people think differently
13:17:27 <|amethyst> does ?rc count?
13:17:27 <elliptic> johnstein: I do think doing something about inventory always hitting 52 slots would be good though
13:17:33 <wheals> oh, i see that i removed my line from the commit message that said i was fine with a revert if people used them
13:17:33 <elliptic> |amethyst: probably, yeah
13:17:34 <elliptic> so 3
13:17:35 <wheals> oops
13:17:44 <johnstein> elliptic: you may have answered my question enough to encourage me to at least write it up
13:17:46 <johnstein> oh
13:18:08 <PleasingFungus> unrelated question, since you're around: MarvinPA, what would you think of increasing phantom warriors' damage?
13:18:14 <|amethyst> the solution to inventory always hitting 52 slots is to make most items useless so you'll never pick them up :P
13:18:18 <johnstein> why only 2 an not 5?
13:18:41 <elliptic> johnstein: players normally use the other 3 as soon as they find them
13:18:42 <simmarine> wow was "[] really removed
13:18:48 <johnstein> (in my case I leave ew and ea on the floor and quaff the potions and pop acq when I see them)
13:18:54 <johnstein> ok
13:19:06 <elliptic> johnstein: so it isn't really that important for the others, though I agree they are in the same category
13:19:11 <|amethyst> there are like 21 or 22 rings you might want to carry for example, and if you leave autopickup on you will end up with all of them
13:19:26 <wheals> i'm not even sure how you people even found those commands useful :P
13:19:27 <elliptic> |amethyst: yeah... wands are also problematic
13:19:44 <|amethyst> but what can you do about that?
13:19:45 <johnstein> elliptic: I'll still write it up even if it's not super important. just to get my idea formulated. ty
13:19:46 <simmarine> wheals: i use " to check jewellery all the time to see what is equipped
13:20:00 <|amethyst> other than making it impossible to swap rings ever
13:20:06 <simmarine> yes, i could just use % but that is a whole different screen and as said earlier it can cut things off anyway
13:20:14 <|amethyst> or cutting out most ring types
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13:20:44 <wheals> it feels more jarring to me to see my inventory in the message window than to quickly pop over to % or i (which is actually what i usually use)
13:21:17 <simmarine> i think its the fact that both take you to completely different screens is the reason why i like using " and [
13:21:18 <PleasingFungus> I think the goal should be to make playing with a full inventory less painful
13:21:20 <elliptic> yeah I use i personally if I just want to check quickly
13:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-341-g3a86570: Use erase_if. 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 16-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3a86570a4af6
13:21:42 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-342-g15c8c87: Revert "Remove some little-used commands." 10(51 seconds ago, 7 files, 141+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=15c8c87d06f8
13:21:44 <PleasingFungus> the thing we were talking about a while back about being able to ID things from the floor
13:22:04 <PleasingFungus> for example
13:22:08 <|amethyst> well, there's still the "what stuff can I drop?" ritual before entering a portal vault
13:22:15 <|amethyst> do we want to keep that?
13:22:30 <|amethyst> (i.e. to free up inv space for loot)
13:22:43 <simmarine> i will say though i preferred % for looking at octopode jewellery since it was easier!
13:22:43 <wheals> i imagine n1k is on my side against the [" menace based on his statements about damage in the message window
13:22:59 <elliptic> johnstein: if you have a good interface for interacting with the strategic consumables then I think it might still be a good change even if it isn't affecting many items, btw
13:23:00 <wheals> doesn't " cause a more for them
13:23:04 <simmarine> yes
13:23:05 <PleasingFungus> I think that's not a big deal - it's not that common and it can be reasonably meaningful, if you end up dropping actual tactical items
13:23:08 <PleasingFungus> portal vault dropping
13:23:14 <|amethyst> wheals:  IMO the problem is that we don't have an inventory sidebar in ASCII or webtiles
13:23:22 <simmarine> making it actually annoying to use " for checking op jewellery
13:23:28 <|amethyst> wheals:  get those tiles panels on all the interfaces
13:23:35 <|amethyst> wheals:  then crawl will be super-easy
13:23:37 <PleasingFungus> I mean, unless we want to implement dpeg's "all items are erased when you leave the level"
13:23:51 <elliptic> |amethyst: I basically never drop items before entering portal vaults, which has the "advantage" that I get to abandon some junk inside the vault and never see it again :P
13:24:00 <PleasingFungus> heh
13:24:09 <elliptic> but I agree that it isn't great
13:24:14 <wheals> glad to see i managed to sneak in my critical sticky nerf without controversy though
13:24:18 <PleasingFungus> the interdimensonal garbage disposal...
13:24:24 <PleasingFungus> er, sp.
13:24:34 <PleasingFungus> !nerf wheals
13:24:34 * Sequell nerfs wheals!!!
13:24:38 * Grunt gestures. garbage is devoured by a tear in reality.
13:24:42 <simmarine> wheals: that was the worst when item destruction was still around
13:24:43 <PleasingFungus> :)
13:24:47 <simmarine> stand in water, lose items anyway
13:24:58 <wheals> oh yeah i guess we cared about sticky back then :P
13:25:09 <|amethyst> wheals: hm, osel_fruit isn't used anymore?  I guess the fedhas abilities just take the first fruit stack in your inventory?
13:25:18 <wheals> yeah
13:25:25 <PleasingFungus> how many fruit stacks are there in your inventory?
13:25:32 <wheals> in case you inscribed one {SNOZZCUMBER} and one {CHOKO}
13:25:35 <PleasingFungus> oh
13:25:37 <johnstein> elliptic: ok. I'll work on a proposal. it will likely end up being too much work but maybe it could spark some other ideas. ty
13:25:37 <PleasingFungus> god, right, inscriptions
13:25:38 <|amethyst> with inscriptions, up to 52 :)
13:25:45 <wheals> fedhas_challenge
13:26:00 <PleasingFungus> johnstein: fwiw, I wrote up some stuff about this a version or two ago, if you're talking about what I think you are
13:26:04 <Grunt> !polytheist johnstein
13:26:05 <Sequell> Unwon gods for johnstein: , Ashenzari, Beogh, Cheibriados, Dithmenos, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Gozag, Igni Ipthes, Jiyva, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Nemelex Xobeh, Qazlal, Ru, Sif Muna, The Shining One, Vehumet, Xom, Yredelemnul, Zin
13:26:13 <PleasingFungus> I think it was in the 0.16 plan, even?
13:26:25 <wheals> didn't we have a discussion about genies a few days ago
13:26:40 <|amethyst> "name every fruit and every holiness-plant monster you encounter"
13:26:43 <elliptic> oh, that reminds me that I discovered that autoinscriptions are applied before stacking with items in your inventory
13:27:10 <elliptic> so if you have an item in your inventory that is inscribed with something different than your autoinscription for that item and you pick up a new item of that type, they won't stack
13:27:29 <elliptic> I forget how I discovered this but it was annoying and confusing until I realized what had happened :P
13:27:30 <johnstein> Grunt: I've been alphabetrogging
13:27:31 <wheals> i guess "[ are also better if you have clear_messages = false
13:27:34 <johnstein> !won
13:27:35 <Sequell> johnstein has won 8 times in 214 games (3.74%): 1xDDBe 1xDsBe 1xGrBe 1xHOBe 1xHOGl 1xHaBe 1xMfTm 1xMiBe
13:27:35 <wheals> unlike me
13:27:42 <|amethyst> elliptic:  but autoinscriptions have to be applied before then, don't they?
13:27:47 <johnstein> till this tourney. I decided to branch out
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13:27:56 <|amethyst> elliptic:  because autoinscriptions can determine whether you pick something up in the first place
13:28:02 <G-Flex> out of curiosity, why was rRot removed from the % screen?
13:28:05 <elliptic> |amethyst: probably, yeah
13:28:07 <johnstein> PleasingFungus: yea that would be good. I'll take a look at 0.16
13:28:10 <johnstein> plan
13:28:30 <elliptic> |amethyst: mainly I'm just saying that I was surprised to discover that items with two different inscriptions don't stack
13:28:33 <|amethyst> G-Flex:  "rare and of limited relevance, so not worth the space it takes up"
13:28:53 <elliptic> since that had literally never come up before
13:28:57 <|amethyst> elliptic:  hmm... would you want them to stack with both inscriptions?
13:29:27 <PleasingFungus> ??pleasingfungus[todo
13:29:28 <Sequell> pleasingfungus[3/22]: Too much to do, not enough time to keep this TODO up to date. Full TODO (arranged in order of most to least likely): https://www.dropbox.com/s/cds3nzv7rshm5u3/annuv.rtf
13:29:36 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I think the idea anyway is that you can have separate stacks of "shooting arrows" and "snaking arrows", but I don't think anyone actually does that
13:29:49 <|amethyst> elliptic:  e.g. one with w0 and one with q0
13:30:03 <|amethyst> elliptic:  and you don't want to shoot away the last of your snakes or whatever
13:30:05 <PleasingFungus> johnstein: ^ search in there for "make strategic items" to see my ancient & very sparse notes about it
13:30:13 <|amethyst> elliptic:  err, @w0 @q0
13:30:49 <elliptic> |amethyst: yeah, probably the current behavior is fine
13:31:03 <PleasingFungus> iirc there were concerns about the ID game and also what counts as 'strategic' vs 'tactical'
13:31:06 <PleasingFungus> and the UI, of course
13:33:07 <johnstein> Ty
13:33:10 <kvaak> I already asked this but missed the reply, are monster servitors supposed to have more HD than the caster?
13:33:49 <PleasingFungus> what hd do player servitors have
13:33:58 <elliptic> kvaak: that's consistent with them casting LCS more frequently than the caster at least
13:34:07 <kvaak> depends on spellpower, they go up to 27(?) iirc
13:34:14 <kvaak> alich servitors are 32 or 33
13:34:23 <PleasingFungus> !source init_spellforged_servitor
13:34:23 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/ghost.cc;hb=HEAD#l994
13:34:37 <kvaak> elliptic: well they only get conjurations so they'd do that even with the same HD
13:34:49 <elliptic> kvaak: yes I know
13:34:51 <Cheibriados> spellforged servitor (138) | Spd: 10 | HD: 33 | HP: 80 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 0 | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 3383 | Sp: iron shot (3d52) [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant.

13:34:51 <kvaak> %?? spellforged servitor hd:33 spells:iron_shot.200.demonic
13:35:07 <elliptic> kvaak: I meant that this isn't the only way in which they are more dangerous than the original monster :P
13:35:44 <PleasingFungus> looks like they get 9 + (6/7) * caster_hd hd
13:35:59 <elliptic> so more HD unless the caster is HD 63
13:36:02 <PleasingFungus> yes
13:36:30 <PleasingFungus> exactly 80 mhp, tho
13:36:31 <elliptic> honestly I would propose just not having monster servitor be a thing
13:36:31 <PleasingFungus> weird
13:36:38 <PleasingFungus> why?
13:36:51 <minmay> why is monster servitor a thing in the first place?
13:36:53 <elliptic> because the servitor is vastly more dangerous than the original monster
13:37:06 <PleasingFungus> is that bad?
13:37:14 <elliptic> IMO it is bad when the original monster is a lich
13:37:30 <PleasingFungus> liches can also summon e.g. fiends
13:37:46 <kvaak> which is essentially a turn not hitting you with 3d52 iron shots
13:37:49 <minmay> so why do they need servitors?
13:37:50 <n1k> wheals, yeah I'm with you--but it doesn't bother me so much to have the inventory listed in the message window when you press a key compared to showing damage
13:37:57 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: that is why the servitors are more dangerous, yes
13:38:40 <PleasingFungus> bonus question: is this an argument that liches shouldn't have servitors, or that no monsters should have servitors?
13:39:19 <PleasingFungus> or an argument that monster servitors should be closer in strength to their summoner
13:40:18 <PleasingFungus> I don't think it's a bad thing at all for monsters to summon creatures more dangerous than themselves, but it's of course possible that the current hd or cast chance formula makes monster servitors too much more dangerous
13:40:42 <kvaak> most if not all summoning monsters summon stuff more dangerous than themselves
13:41:09 <elliptic> other summons don't have LCS
13:41:36 <|amethyst> spellslot.freq = 200 / count
13:41:37 <elliptic> the stupid thing with lich servitor is that the turn after the lich summons the servitor, they can both LCS you at once
13:42:07 <elliptic> or 3 times in the next two turns isn't that unlikely
13:42:53 <PleasingFungus> is this an argument against vaults containing multiple liches
13:43:06 <PleasingFungus> or the existence of zot:5
13:43:11 <Lasty_> hey, liches be crazy
13:43:19 <PleasingFungus> I think the term is "cray cray".
13:43:23 <|amethyst> I think total 200 freq is pretty high
13:43:35 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: it's an argument against letting liches summon two liches at once
13:43:39 <|amethyst> the nearest monster to that that I'm aware of is siren/avatar song, which is 160
13:43:42 <elliptic> which is more or less what servitor does
13:43:49 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: yeah, I was suggesting that we could lower the frequency for monster servitors.
13:43:54 <PleasingFungus> monster summoned servitors*
13:43:55 <|amethyst> I guess some have a bigger sum, but not on a single spell
13:44:00 <PleasingFungus> (all servitors are monsters)
13:44:01 <elliptic> most summons don't have LCS IME
13:44:35 <PleasingFungus> also, I think liches can summon like
13:44:37 <PleasingFungus> three liches at once
13:44:42 <PleasingFungus> if they have shadow creatures
13:44:48 <n1k> is a possible summon with LCS so much worse than a hell sentinel with iron shot? (yes, but mostly because of the HD 33 thing)
13:44:53 <elliptic> yes, shadow creatures liches are also pretty terrible design
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13:45:23 <PleasingFungus> anyway, nerfing monster servitors would only help if elliptic's concern is the average strength of the summons, rather than the potential peak damage
13:45:27 <elliptic> since you basically just have to run away immediately generally... there's a reason why boggarts are weak and easy to kill on their own
13:45:54 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: reducing HD and frequency both might be enough
13:46:03 <PleasingFungus> ok. that seems perfectly do-able.
13:46:21 <PleasingFungus> hm
13:46:42 <PleasingFungus> !lg * cv=0.16 cikiller=frederick s=ckiller
13:46:43 <Sequell> 10 games for * (cv=0.16 cikiller=frederick): 9x a spellforged servitor, Frederick
13:46:46 <elliptic> yes
13:46:47 <PleasingFungus> heh
13:47:00 <PleasingFungus> !lg * cv=0.16 cikiller=lich s=ckiller
13:47:01 <Sequell> 75 games for * (cv=0.16 cikiller=lich): 38x a lich, 9x a spellforged servitor, 7x an Ice Fiend, 3x a Brimstone Fiend, 3x a tentacled monstrosity, 2x an eldritch tentacle, 2x a balrug, 2x a large abomination, 2x a Hell Sentinel, a tormentor, a jiangshi, a hellion, a starcursed mass, a flying skull, an ettin simulacrum, a hell beast
13:47:03 <elliptic> frederick is a good example of this (since he is a lich who can't be dispel undeaded)
13:47:39 <minmay> elliptic: can you remove player spellforged servitor while you're at it
13:47:41 <|amethyst> what about an XP multiplier for monsters with servitor
13:47:47 <|amethyst> since it's only ever assigned randomly
13:48:23 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: do you have any idea what proportion of liches have servitor?
13:48:24 <Bloax> @??frederick
13:48:25 <Gretell> Frederick (03@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 159 | AC/EV: 10/7 | Dam: 27 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | XP: 3749 | Sp: mystic blast (3d25), b.cold (3d30), spellforged servitor, iron shot (3d36) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
13:48:28 <|amethyst> and we already do that with some spells
13:49:23 <Bloax> lich servitors with lcs almost killing you through 74/35/32
13:49:27 <Bloax> god i love lcs
13:49:29 <Bloax> such a good spell
13:49:31 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: looks like a fairly small fraction, eyeballing it
13:50:09 <elliptic> yeah, it's just one thing in lich_secondary_spells[]
13:50:20 <wheals> ??ops
13:50:20 <Sequell> ops[1/2]: ##crawl-dev ops: elly dpeg enne kilobyte rax violetj greensnark sorear due Zaba galehar MarvinPA Nap_kin Grunt
13:50:27 <PleasingFungus> yeah, though it looks like liches can have multiple secondary spells
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13:51:03 <PleasingFungus> um. somewhere between two and five?
13:51:31 <PleasingFungus> ofc, the more spells any given lich has, the less likely it is to actually summon a servitor
13:52:30 <PleasingFungus> anyway, I'm on board with tweaking monster servitor numbers way down. I'd prefer to try that before removing it entirely
13:52:31 <PleasingFungus> brb
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13:53:53 <n1k> wheals, by the way, my issue with the message window is more with showing gamey numbers than breaking up 'the narrative'
13:54:08 <wheals> i was mostly kidding
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13:54:27 <wheals> just good to know you haven't fallen to the side of the "[
13:55:58 <n1k> they're buttons I never press since the information is shared in other screens I use a lot 'i' for example
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13:59:13 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: while we're talking about monsters, how would you feel about increasing phantasmal warrior damage a little?
13:59:37 <PleasingFungus> I'm worried they'll be a bit ineffectual now (against players)
14:01:05 <Bloax> did they get nerfed or something
14:01:51 <Bloax> because they're already stronger than wardens unless your defenses are crap
14:02:41 <Lightli> they did get nerfed
14:02:46 <Lightli> lost their ability to ignore shields and AC
14:02:52 <Lightli> also, random question
14:03:10 <Bloax> well in that case yes, they're pretty weak
14:03:15 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: re phantasmal warriors, i was thinking about that when i changed them but they didn't have their damage decreased when they got AF_VULN plus ac/shieldpiercing
14:03:21 <MarvinPA> so i thought it probably wasn't necessary
14:03:31 <Lightli> if a VS attacks an enemy with Gyre and Gimble, do they get 2 chances to bite per attack?
14:03:55 <wheals> good question
14:04:08 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: I agree it's not necessary to change damage in all cases, but in this case it seems appropriate; I think the higher threat level made them more interesting
14:04:34 <PleasingFungus> Lightli: I would guess no, since aux attacks don't trigger repeatedly with cleaving, and it's closely related code...?
14:04:50 <Lightli> rip possibly overpowered interaction
14:04:59 <Bloax> Lightli: no
14:05:16 <Bloax> source: just tested it out
14:06:12 <gammafunk> man, I'm subscribing to a lot of repos these days
14:06:14 <PleasingFungus> possibly rip
14:06:18 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: sounds good, they are pretty weak
14:06:27 <Bloax> @??phantasmal warrior
14:06:27 <Gretell> phantasmal warrior (09W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 39-62 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 2612(vuln) | 07undead, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 538 | Sp: blink close [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.
14:06:31 <gammafunk> are we basically moved over to github in terms of necessary repos at this point?
14:06:45 <PleasingFungus> ok, I'll push something tonight unless someone tells me otherwise.
14:06:45 <Bloax> @??vault warden
14:06:46 <Gretell> vault warden (04p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 72-105 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 36 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 1691 | Sp: seal doors | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
14:06:54 <Bloax> lol hd:9
14:06:54 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: otherwise
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14:07:00 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: you're not someone.
14:07:01 <gammafunk> and has anyone else switched their setup to pull from github and push to gitorious?
14:07:01 <PleasingFungus> you're a nobody.
14:07:05 <PleasingFungus> you can't even win a hesu!
14:07:05 <gammafunk> ;_;
14:07:25 <gammafunk> I'll just...I'll just...I'll try a random combo! From Sequell
14:07:27 <gammafunk> !next
14:07:27 <elliptic> gammafunk: you have to !tell if you expect that to work
14:07:28 <Sequell> The RNG decrees that gammafunk shall win "the HE species score with HESu" next.
14:07:35 <Bloax> :^)
14:07:47 <gammafunk> elliptic: good point
14:07:47 <PleasingFungus> what are the odds....
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14:08:26 <Bloax> @??ghoul
14:08:26 <Gretell> ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 132-163 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 3004(rot), 30 | 07undead, 10doors, 04eats corpses, evil | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 1546 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
14:08:48 <Bloax> (rip decked out ghoul bros)
14:09:34 <Lightli> rip equippable ghouls: casualty of the removal of ta
14:09:43 <ZChris13> ta?
14:09:43 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: I think elliptic does have a good point about way overpowered summons like servitor and shadow creatures. For the latter, I'm really not sure what we can do
14:10:36 <PleasingFungus> it would probably be ok to remove shadow liches. there are plenty of other monsters with that spell, and plenty of other lich summons
14:10:38 <gammafunk> Shadow creatures just ends up being very insane...perhaps there's a nob to be tweaked there, but it's even kind of innately less interesting since it's just "more enemies from the level"
14:10:43 <gammafunk> yeah
14:11:13 <Lightli> speaking of shadow creatures
14:11:16 <gammafunk> Make them do shadow creatures from depths so they can make six caustic shrikes at a time
14:11:25 <PleasingFungus> weave shadow lichen
14:11:25 <elliptic> speaking of
14:11:30 <Lightli> (no, not talking about shadow traps)
14:11:33 <elliptic> why are caustic shrike bands
14:11:40 <elliptic> we don't have golden dragon bands
14:11:47 <elliptic> or fire giant bands
14:12:00 <gammafunk> Are they sufficiently differentiated as single spawns?
14:12:00 <ZChris13> can't fire giants come in bands?
14:12:04 <gammafunk> @??caustic_shrike
14:12:05 <Gretell> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 101-135 | AC/EV: 10/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4916 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
14:12:17 <gammafunk> I suppose they are
14:12:33 <gammafunk> good resistances, defenses, hp, and a unique af_type
14:12:38 <wheals> fr: shadow lich traps
14:12:38 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: imo talk to lasty; I believe he had some justification but my memory is awful
14:12:41 <elliptic> gammafunk: well currently they mainly seem to generate in bands inside vaults that have lots of monsters too
14:13:03 <gammafunk> yes
14:13:03 <Bloax> i've had a vault filled with shrikes
14:13:03 <PleasingFungus> *I believe he had some good justification
14:13:09 <gammafunk> I mean I've encountered a band outside of a vault, but a 098 vault will be where you find them
14:13:10 <elliptic> like I assumed for a while that I was just being unlucky and there happened to be 4 shrikes generated nearby in a nasty vault
14:13:14 <gammafunk> as there are lots of those in depths
14:13:20 <wheals> how many depths vaults place 8 band / 9 band though?
14:13:28 <gammafunk> wheals: nearly all the encompass
14:13:36 <gammafunk> but I guess you'd argue that's not the same as a float vault
14:13:45 <Bloax> imo make them not band monsters
14:13:48 <Bloax> but spawn them more often
14:13:54 <elliptic> there's at least one non-encompass vault that likes to place shrike bands
14:14:22 <gammafunk> oh hrm, but what wheals said might be true...don't 098 not actually make bands unless you use e.g. 8 band
14:14:46 <gammafunk> oh
14:14:49 <wheals> profane halls is the only one in depths_encompass.des with 9 band (and no 8 bands)
14:14:51 <gammafunk> !kw recent
14:14:51 <Sequell> Keyword: recent => cv>=0.14
14:14:57 <gammafunk> ah, time to update that
14:14:59 <gammafunk> !kw current
14:14:59 <Sequell> Keyword: current => cv>=0.15
14:15:04 <PleasingFungus> wheals: he said non-encompass vault
14:15:10 <gammafunk> !kw current cv>=0.16
14:15:11 <Sequell> Defined keyword: current => cv>=0.16
14:15:12 <elliptic> !tell Lasty_ PF said to ask you why caustic shrike bands are a thing - IMO we should just let them spawn near each other randomly instead
14:15:13 <Sequell> elliptic: OK, I'll let lasty_ know.
14:15:14 <wheals> <+gammafunk> wheals: nearly all the encompass
14:15:23 <elliptic> !kw recent cv>=01.5
14:15:24 <Sequell> Defined keyword: recent => cv>=01.5
14:15:28 <elliptic> !kw recent cv>=0.15
14:15:28 <Sequell> Defined keyword: recent => cv>=0.15
14:15:38 <wheals> 01.5, i can't wait
14:15:43 <gammafunk> !lg * recent ikiller=caustic_shrike s=kmap
14:15:44 <Sequell> 106 games for * (recent ikiller=caustic_shrike): 22x, 10x grunt_runaround, 7x grunt_twisty_corner, 6x grunt_profane_halls, 5x grunt_crosshair, 5x grunt_runaround; grunt_runaround_loot, 4x grunt_bent_corner, 4x box_level_dp, 3x minmay_strange_plus, 3x grunt_x_marks_the_spot, 2x grunt_arcs, 2x grunt_deathspiral_small, 2x hangedman_slaughterboxes, 2x minmay_outward_triangles, 2x little_maze_vault, 2x...
14:15:57 <PleasingFungus> fwiw shrikes being bands was part of the original design concept (that's not a justification, of course, just context)
14:15:58 <gammafunk> so yeah a lot more kills from in a vault versus none
14:15:59 <Bloax> !lg * recent won min=turn
14:16:00 <Sequell> 8029. Bloax the Brawler (L24 VSTm of Cheibriados), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-09-07 00:09:20, with 4946408 points after 13320 turns and 1:50:58.
14:16:08 <PleasingFungus> !vault grunt_runaround
14:16:09 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/d_encompass.des;hb=HEAD#l281
14:16:17 <elliptic> !vault grunt_twisty_corner
14:16:17 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large_abstract.des;hb=HEAD#l1293
14:16:21 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: that vault is where I first fought them
14:16:26 <wheals> 8 bands
14:16:30 <PleasingFungus> runaround?
14:16:38 <gammafunk> well, yeah, I mean look at it
14:16:42 <wheals> i think i had one in grunt_bent_corner
14:16:42 <gammafunk> it's a big...runaround
14:16:46 <PleasingFungus> heh
14:16:48 <PleasingFungus> yes
14:16:53 <elliptic> !vault grunt_arcs
14:16:53 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des;hb=HEAD#l5908
14:16:56 <PleasingFungus> I remember some people were angry about that vault
14:16:57 <PleasingFungus> (runaround)
14:17:00 <PleasingFungus> I forget why
14:17:05 <gammafunk> are we noticing a common theme here
14:17:08 <elliptic> !vault grunt_crosshair
14:17:08 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des;hb=HEAD#l5689
14:17:09 <gammafunk> wrt to the vault author
14:17:14 <wheals> KMONS:   # = 9 band
14:17:16 <gammafunk> I can't put my finger on it...
14:17:16 <wheals> does that work
14:17:25 <elliptic> !vault grunt_bent_corner
14:17:26 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large_abstract.des;hb=HEAD#l1254
14:17:34 <elliptic> okay that one
14:17:51 <elliptic> is the one that seems to have at least one shrike pack the majority of the time
14:18:16 <Cheibriados> Various tiles 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9597 by Bloax
14:18:16 <Lasty_> elliptic: they're meant to be very dangerous and to use some of the same tactics you use against killer bees (though that got slightly ruined when they turned into bird). Lone shrikes aren't that dangerous and don't require any special tactics.
14:18:16 <Sequell> Lasty_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:18:28 <gammafunk> mauris: cheibrodos_leafed_vault was made entirely in your vault edit app
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14:18:36 <elliptic> IMO lone shrikes are still dangerous enough :P
14:18:49 <gammafunk> well not *entirely* since he had to clean up the header in a text editor, I guess
14:18:52 <mauris> !vault cheibrodos_leafed_vault
14:18:53 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des;hb=HEAD#l5973
14:19:03 <elliptic> Lasty_: what about making the bands smaller at least?
14:19:09 <wheals> fun note: of all 8 bands, 2 are by nicolae-, one by cheibrodos, one by hangedman and grunt, and the rest by grunt
14:19:11 <gammafunk> I think pretty much all of cheibrodos' were made that way, and he has some pretty large ones
14:19:13 <elliptic> like 2-3 maybe
14:19:32 <Lasty_> elliptic: I could deal with making them smaller, but 2-3 is too small, IMO
14:19:42 <mauris> cool!
14:19:49 <wheals> rest being 7
14:20:15 <Lasty_> elliptic: we don't have bands of fire giants or golden dragons, but to a certain extent that's the point. We have big bands of really lethal things in D, and I want there to be the same in U something
14:20:17 <mauris> i don't even recall subst / nsubst / etc. working in the end, haha
14:20:22 <Lasty_> s/something/sometimes/
14:21:06 <gammafunk> mauris: yeah I had to clean up some headers as well, but I think he really liked just being able to paint tiles on the canvas as opposed to using text editor
14:21:10 <elliptic> Lasty_: partly I just find it strange that they generate alone most of the time, and then suddenly you find 7 together in a vault
14:21:15 <elliptic> Lasty_: bees don't do that
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14:21:41 <elliptic> Lasty_: it also doesn't feel like they are balanced for packs of 7 :P
14:22:11 <Bloax> i would like bands of golden dragons
14:22:16 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-343-g22d161b: Let Natasha talk when asleep (and Harold not when exploded) (#8629). 10(30 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=22d161bb0095
14:22:16 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-344-g679af95: Let Natasha give her spiel when polymorphed (#8539). 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=679af95b9c56
14:22:32 <Bloax> it would make getting a gda be not annoying as hell
14:22:43 <Lasty_> elliptic: true, but that's a problem with depths vaults, not shrikes per se. 7 may be too many. I'd accept 3-5.
14:22:44 <elliptic> Lasty_: (it feels like they are balanced for packs of 1)
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14:23:38 <elliptic> 3-5 and make them somewhat weaker as monsters, maybe
14:23:42 <elliptic> @??caustic shrike
14:23:42 <Gretell> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 101-135 | AC/EV: 10/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4916 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
14:24:01 <Grunt> !lg * t depths s=ckiller
14:24:01 <Sequell> 420 games for * (t depths): 33x a stone giant, 33x a caustic shrike, 18x a frost giant, 17x a deep troll, 16x an octopode crusher, 14x a deep troll earth mage, 14x an ettin, 14x a fire giant, 13x a fire dragon, 12x a spriggan air mage, 11x a spriggan defender, 9x an ice dragon, 9x a spriggan berserker, 9x a yaktaur captain, 8x a titan, 7x an iron troll, 6x a lich, 5x a death yak, 5x a yaktaur, 5x ...
14:24:06 <Grunt> that's a fun statistic
14:24:33 <wheals> rip SpAM
14:24:35 <gammafunk> elliptic: is opc throwing a good monster mechanic in your opinion?
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14:25:22 <elliptic> gammafunk: I don't really like it, but I also don't really know how it works (iirc it can do really scary damage if you get unlucky?)
14:25:40 <elliptic> gammafunk: I did have an amusing experience in a recent game where it saved me a potion of flight
14:25:45 <gammafunk> haha
14:25:51 <gammafunk> it doesn't check gdr, and does 4 * hd damage
14:25:58 <elliptic> by tossing me across the moat around vampire tower
14:25:59 <wheals> PleasingFungus: do you have suggestions for explaining natasha's revival in xv
14:26:01 <gammafunk> so yeah it's fairly scary
14:26:07 <gammafunk> @??octopode_crusher
14:26:07 <Gretell> octopode crusher (08x) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 99-128 | AC/EV: 1/17 | Dam: 35, 1003(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, amphibious, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 2242 | Sp: iron shot (3d29), tentacle throw [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
14:26:13 <elliptic> so just 4*HD - 1dAC?
14:26:19 <gammafunk> yes
14:26:32 <gammafunk> elliptic: but the idea is that it throws you towards dangerous monsters or unexplored areas
14:26:36 <wheals> !lg * ikiller=ocotpode_crusher max=dam x=dam
14:26:37 <Sequell> No games for * (ikiller=ocotpode_crusher).
14:26:41 <wheals> !lg * ikiller=octopode_crusher max=dam x=dam
14:26:41 <gammafunk> as opposed to purely random
14:26:42 <Sequell> 184. [dam=75] RBrandon the Brawler (L15 TrHu of Makhleb), blasted by an octopode crusher (iron shot) (kmap: cheibrodos_shoals_oceanic_diplomacy) on Shoals:1 on 2014-11-10 02:54:26, with 106425 points after 28355 turns and 1:52:16.
14:26:47 <elliptic> is there extra damage if it throws you into a wall or a monster or anything silly like that
14:26:49 <wheals> good xl
14:26:53 <gammafunk> no
14:27:09 <gammafunk> it's just that it tries to throw you toward bad monsters or unexplored regions , prefering the former
14:27:17 <PleasingFungus> wheals: hm
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14:27:32 <elliptic> well it doesn't sound awful to me, but I'm also not sure how well it works - I feel like usually when I fight one it is alone for some reason
14:27:42 <elliptic> maybe because they generate on water?
14:27:48 <gammafunk> yeah they tend to be rare because of that
14:27:56 <gammafunk> well and I guess there's the being near water thing
14:28:03 <elliptic> not just rare, but also there won't be other monsters nearby as much
14:28:08 <gammafunk> right
14:28:20 <elliptic> maybe it would work better as a tentmons mechanic? I don't know
14:28:25 <gammafunk> hrm
14:28:28 <PleasingFungus> wheals: too hungry to think creatively right now, going to lunch; will report back if I have exciting thoughts
14:28:29 <gammafunk> that's interesting
14:28:34 <elliptic> though tentmons not having a ranged attack isn't great for it
14:28:38 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: how much sense does it make - yeah
14:28:40 <PleasingFungus> that
14:28:46 <Bloax> @??agnes perm_ench:berserk
14:28:46 <Gretell> Agnes (11i) | Spd: 27 | HD: 11 | HP: 150 | AC/EV: 2/20 | Dam: 45 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100) | XP: 2148 | Sz: little | Int: high.
14:28:48 <elliptic> but tentmons at least generates with other monsters more
14:29:02 <gammafunk> yeah, right, I liked the iron shot + throwing interaction, which tmons wouldn't have
14:29:15 <wheals> give it to a monster with OOD :P
14:29:21 <gammafunk> wheals: servitors...
14:29:37 <wheals> Frederick throws you! The spellforged servitor catches you!
14:29:51 <PleasingFungus> heh
14:29:53 <n1k> alley oop
14:30:09 <Bloax> iron shot + throwing is quite strong
14:30:14 <Bloax> iron shot + shields is stronger though
14:30:29 <gammafunk> yeah they do get the kills, but truthfully it's mostly iron shot or melee
14:30:45 <gammafunk> !lg * recent ikiller=octopode_crusher s=ktype,kaux
14:30:46 <Sequell> 147 games for * (recent ikiller=octopode_crusher): 81x beam (81x iron shot), 48x being thrown (48x), 18x mon (18x)
14:30:57 <gammafunk> oh I guess throw does beat out just melee
14:30:58 <n1k> are there other monster damage sources that have fixed pre-ac damage like that? out of curiousity
14:31:09 <gammafunk> fixed?
14:31:24 <n1k> oh did I misunderstand? 4*HD, right?
14:31:25 <elliptic> gammafunk: as in, 4*HD instead of 8dHD
14:31:25 <gammafunk> n1k: any ranged attack doesn't check gdr
14:31:41 <gammafunk> oh
14:31:42 <gammafunk> sorry
14:31:45 <gammafunk> it's randomized damage
14:31:48 <gammafunk> if that was unclear
14:31:54 <gammafunk> that's just the die size: 4 * HD
14:31:57 <n1k> ah okay
14:32:01 <elliptic> oh, so that's the max?
14:32:04 <gammafunk> right
14:32:11 <gammafunk> it's not fixed damage
14:32:44 <gammafunk> !lg * recent ktype=being_thrown x=avg(dam)
14:32:44 <Sequell> 48 games for * (recent ktype=being_thrown): avg(dam)=42.71
14:32:57 <gammafunk> !lg * recent ktype=being_thrown x=avg(dam),min(dam),max(dam)
14:32:58 <Sequell> 48 games for * (recent ktype=being_thrown): avg(dam)=42.71; min(dam)=17; max(dam)=58
14:33:14 <gammafunk> hrm
14:33:43 <Bloax> !rng 4d16
14:33:43 * Sequell rolls 4d16 for 29
14:34:02 <gammafunk> yeah
14:34:06 <Bloax> !rng 4d16
14:34:07 * Sequell rolls 4d16 for 36
14:34:07 <gammafunk> const int dam = victim.apply_ac(random2(pow));
14:34:24 <gammafunk> and then pow = 4 * HD
14:35:13 <gammafunk> I guess the fact that avg(dam) is higher than average is just because I'm looking at killing blows
14:35:16 <gammafunk> so those would tend to be higher
14:35:29 <PleasingFungus> fatality...!
14:35:40 <gammafunk> well higher than average and despite it checking ac
14:35:49 <gammafunk> so good roll for opc, bad roll for player ac
14:37:21 <PleasingFungus> also probably biases towards lower player ac (even before it's rolled)
14:38:09 <gammafunk> yep
14:38:16 <Lasty_> elliptic: what's your concern about caustic shrikes spawning in (say) packs of 3-5?
14:40:03 <Lasty_> You mentioned that they weren't "balanced", but I'm not sure what you mean by that
14:41:42 <PleasingFungus> didn't he say they weren't balanced for packs of 7
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14:42:03 <Lasty_> He said they were balanced for packs of 1
14:42:18 <PleasingFungus> right after suggesting packs of 3-5, ya. I scrolled up
14:42:20 <PleasingFungus> I did it
14:42:23 <PleasingFungus> I used the scrollwheel.
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14:42:31 <Lasty_> !cheers PleasingFungus
14:42:31 * Sequell slides a flagon of cabernet sauvignon across the bar to PleasingFungus, courtesy of Lasty_.
14:42:35 <wheals> that's for losers
14:42:50 <Bcadren> is there a certain format for animated tiles?
14:42:51 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: now click with the scrollwheel! Do it!
14:42:59 <PleasingFungus> actually I lied
14:43:01 <PleasingFungus> I don't even have a scrollwheel
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14:43:03 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 53b308e #2121 : Jesse Luehrs): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56421982
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14:43:06 <PleasingFungus> I used the magic trackpad, the tool of kings.
14:43:11 * PleasingFungus out!
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14:43:19 <gammafunk> what a phoney!
14:44:23 <gammafunk> @??acid_blob
14:44:23 <Gretell> acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 83-117 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(160), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 2418 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: plant.
14:44:32 <gammafunk> @??shard_shrike
14:44:32 <Gretell> shard shrike (12b) | Spd: 30 | HD: 21 | HP: 87-121 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 2112(cold:21-62) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold++, 08blind | XP: 5345 | Sp: throw icicle (3d30) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
14:44:43 <gammafunk> er
14:44:48 <gammafunk> @??caustic_shrike
14:44:48 <Gretell> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 101-135 | AC/EV: 10/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4916 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
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14:45:19 <elliptic> Lasty_: "they are too strong"
14:45:29 <elliptic> Lasty_: thus why I suggested also making them a bit weaker
14:45:31 <gammafunk> Lasty_: they are essentially "harder acid blobs"
14:45:46 <elliptic> gammafunk: quite a lot harder
14:45:53 <Lasty_> elliptic: but what does that mean? Do they kill too many people? Force people to use too many resources? Are they at the wrong power level for the area they're in?
14:46:00 <elliptic> Lasty_: the last
14:46:23 <Bloax> replace draconians with caustic shrikes
14:46:23 <Bloax> done
14:47:00 <Lasty_> elliptic: does that mean the issue is that their power level isn't bad per se, but just out of sync with the monsters around them? If so, I agree, but I think the solution is to make Depths harder -- spawn fewer trash monsters like death yaks and hill giants.
14:47:06 <elliptic> they have far, far better defenses than acid blobs, more HP, and are almost twice as fast
14:47:27 <elliptic> they have a bit less melee damage, but that's more than compensated by their speed
14:47:40 <Lasty_> they're also susceptible to magic, including ?fear
14:47:49 <Cheibriados> death yak (08Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 62-92 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Dam: 30 | Res: 06magic(100) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 872 | Sz: Big | Int: animal.

14:47:49 <Lightli> %??death yak
14:47:57 <Lasty_> but why the comparison to acid blobs? Would acid blobs also be too scary for depths?
14:47:57 <Lightli> not that much
14:48:10 <Bloax> acid blobs are still annoying as shit because rcorr does nothing to prevent corrosion and they spit at you all the time
14:48:26 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_lunch
14:48:29 <Bloax> at least shrikes don't do that
14:48:29 <elliptic> Lasty_: acid blobs would not be too scary, no... but shrikes are a lot stronger and come in packs
14:48:34 <elliptic> I'm not sure what is confusing about this
14:48:45 <Bcadren> Is there a sprite sheet format with a certain order or are they seperate files?
14:49:13 <gammafunk> seperate files, see the source/rltiles directory
14:49:26 <Lasty_> elliptic: what's confusing to me is that my feeling is that by the time most of my characters hit depths, almost nothing in Depths scares me at all
14:49:41 <elliptic> Lasty_: to be clear, I think only liches are more dangerous than shrikes in depths
14:49:45 <Lasty_> so I see it as good that there's a monster in depths that occassionally scares me
14:49:52 <elliptic> and liches don't come in packs of 7
14:49:55 <Lasty_> elliptic: agreed, and that's the intention
14:50:03 <elliptic> (that's more dangerous as an individual monster)
14:50:07 <Bcadren> I'm thinking about making anim water for the swamp; so it's not the same as the rest of the dungeon; since Sewer and Shoals have unique water; but swamp doesn't.
14:50:09 <Lasty_> Shrike spawn rates are pretty similar to ancient lich spawn rates
14:50:29 <Lightli> that sounds like a good idea
14:50:40 <elliptic> Lasty_: how do 7-shrike-pack spawn rates compare with 7-lich-pack spawn rates
14:51:24 <elliptic> Lasty_: trust me, I'll still be terrified by a pack of 4 slightly weaker shrikes
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14:52:12 <Lasty_> Actually, I lied, they're much more like titan spawn rates, which are 1/5 of ancient liches. The number of 7-packs is very rare, though, only present when vaults place 8/9 bands or else you trip the OOD timer.
14:52:43 <Lasty_> (or really any packs, for that matter)
14:52:51 <Bloax> Bcadren: they are all separate files
14:53:37 <Lasty_> elliptic: when you say you'll still be terrified of 4 shrikes, my feeling is "good". I think it's good for players to be scared. So far my encounters with shrikes have all been scary, but not lethal, even when I got two large packs on U:4 and ran into another large pack on U:5
14:54:18 <elliptic> Lasty_: so why are you arguing with my proposal of reducing band size and making the monsters slightly weaker if your feeling is "good"?
14:54:29 <Lasty_> currently shrike pack size is 1 + 2 + random2(4), so max size is 6
14:54:47 <Lasty_> elliptic: I was fine with packs of, say, 3-5
14:54:50 <Lasty_> and I said so
14:55:01 <Lasty_> I was arguing with the premise that >1 shrike is too many
14:55:03 <elliptic> and how about the other half of my proposal
14:55:15 <Lasty_> which was implied by them being "balanced around packs of 1"
14:55:19 <minmay> elliptic: remember chaos butterflies
14:55:29 <gammafunk> elliptic: what would change about them stat-wise?
14:56:00 <gammafunk> well how would you prefer to make them weaker, I should ask
14:56:08 <elliptic> gammafunk: there are a lot of knobs - maybe reducing speed a bit (to 18), or reducing HD a little (by 1 or 2), or reducing AC or EV a little
14:56:30 <elliptic> I'm not sure which way would be best since I don't understand the current design other than "make really diesel speed 20 pack monster"
14:56:38 <Lasty_> I'd rather reduce hp than HD, since the lower the HD is the more likely people get them in shapeshifter/polymorph accidents
14:57:10 <Lasty_> I'm fine with reducing AC a little, but would like to keep EV high.
14:57:25 <elliptic> how about AC 6
14:57:35 <Lasty_> @??caustic shrike
14:57:35 <Gretell> caustic shrike (09b) | Spd: 20 | HD: 18 | HP: 101-135 | AC/EV: 10/18 | Dam: 3608(acid:7d3) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 05fire, 02cold, 08blind | XP: 4916 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
14:57:58 <elliptic> though we do already have spriggans in depths as a high-EV enemy
14:58:05 <Lasty_> I could live with that. I don't feel that it's necessary, but I don't think it really breaks the concept.
14:58:17 <Cheibriados> killer bee (07y) | Spd: 20 | HD: 3 | HP: 10-23 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 1008(poison:6-12) | fly | Res: 06magic(10) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 62 | Sz: tiny | Int: insect.

14:58:17 <Lasty_> %?? killer bee
14:58:18 <gammafunk> tbh speed 15 sounds better to me than 18, and reduce ac and maybe ev, and leave hp
14:58:53 <gammafunk> I don't think there are other speed 18 monsters
14:58:55 <Lasty_> speed 15 would be a pretty stiff nerf, imo
14:59:11 <Lasty_> the EV and speed were chosen based on being interesting on killer bees
14:59:15 <Lasty_> fwiw
14:59:35 <gammafunk> yeah, well if you kept speed and lowered ac + hp
14:59:38 <Lasty_> !lg devteamnp killer~~caustic
14:59:39 <Sequell> 1. dpeg the Devastator (L25 FoVM of Gozag), slain by a caustic shrike on Depths:2 (box_level_dp) on 2015-03-02 14:14:09, with 440352 points after 92284 turns and 7:25:21.
14:59:47 <gammafunk> I guess that would ok too
14:59:58 <gammafunk> just not sure that making a speed 18 monster is great
15:00:06 <gammafunk> but we have speed 12 monsters, so...
15:00:19 <Lasty_> !lg * t place=depths / killer~~caustic
15:00:20 <Sequell> 37/420 games for * (t place=depths): N=37/420 (8.81%)
15:00:23 <gammafunk> I don't know how the xv descriptions map to speed
15:00:40 <elliptic> gammafunk: maybe AC 8 and reduce HP by 20% or some such?
15:01:05 <Lasty_> elliptic: I like that best of the nerf proposals I've heard
15:01:23 <Lasty_> tho for my money, the scarier they are, the better
15:01:35 <Lasty_> I do think their hp is a bit high
15:01:47 <Lasty_> just in terms of amount of time it takes to kill one
15:01:58 <elliptic> and also maybe make the bands 3-5 instead of 3-6
15:02:08 <Lasty_> I'm fine w/ that
15:02:27 <elliptic> (some vaults will still place two shrike bands near each other for the large band experience :P)
15:02:33 <Lasty_> yeah
15:02:35 <Lasty_> potentially
15:02:46 <Lasty_> it's pretty rare to get even one shrike band in a given game
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15:08:24 <minmay> alternatively: make other depths monsters as strong as shrikes!
15:08:32 <Cheibriados> ASSERT(you.props.exists(AVAILABLE_SAC_KEY)) in 'ability.cc' at line 3949 failed. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9598 by nagdon
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15:09:09 <Lasty_> minmay: that's the direction I'd like to see things going in
15:09:30 <Lasty_> minmay: at the very least, I think it makes sense for depths as a branch to have a meaningfully scary "out of depth" monster.
15:09:47 <Lasty_> Prior to shard shrikes it generally meant you got a titan instead of a fire giant
15:10:03 <gammafunk> wow, shard shrikes did that...
15:10:07 <Lasty_> er
15:10:08 <Bloax> @??titan
15:10:09 <Gretell> titan (06C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 91-128 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Dam: 55 | 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(180), 11elec+++, 12drown | XP: 2592 | Sp: b.lightning (3d24), minor healing (2d10), airstrike (0-50) | Sz: Giant | Int: high.
15:10:10 <Lasty_> caustic shrikes
15:10:11 <Lasty_> :p
15:10:27 <gammafunk> That's it! Lasty said something incorrect! Dev team status revoked!
15:10:58 <gammafunk> I'm actually running objstat to see what numbers in depths look like
15:10:58 <Lasty_> gammafunk: I'm pretty sure it got revoked for saying something incorrect about 36 seconds after it was issued.
15:11:05 <Bloax> would be nice to cut down on their airstrike/lightning damage
15:11:14 <Bloax> but make them quite a bit tankier
15:11:17 <gammafunk> Lasty_: you didn't break crawl on your first day like Basil did, so that's good
15:11:17 <minmay> well if you are going to make depths challenging i think you should probably make lair through depths entrance challenging first
15:11:28 <Lasty_> minmay: also good
15:11:49 <Lasty_> minmay: I'm only one terrible dev. These things take time.
15:13:30 <ZChris13> what did basil do
15:15:35 <gammafunk> he made a change to spell books and seen spell that was a nice fix but that somehow screwed up enums
15:15:40 <gammafunk> so it messed up save compat
15:16:06 <gammafunk> and the fixes for that involve trying to guess what a player actually has in their save from other data we can correlate, and then map things correctly
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15:17:33 <ZChris13> ouch
15:22:06 <|amethyst> hm, trying to come up with a workaround so we don't have to break save compat at minor = 255
15:23:49 <|amethyst> but I don't see how to do it without breaking forwards-compatibility of the char chunk... the chunk itself would be fine, but we need to store the extra bits of the version somewhere early, and that would throw off old versions' save browsers
15:23:57 <|amethyst> somewhere early in every chunk
15:24:48 <|amethyst> probably the only solution is to do something like what we did for major 33 -> major 34
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15:26:28 <|amethyst> and promote the compat code to #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 35  but change the if (th.getMinorVersion() < blah) to something like  if (th.versionBefore(34, blah))
15:27:23 <wheals> yeah, i was thinking and ran into the same issue
15:27:41 <|amethyst> not that I would object to breaking save compat for a good reason
15:27:48 <|amethyst> but running out of numbers isn't a good reason IMO
15:28:04 <|amethyst> "storing symbolic enum mappings" would be a good reason :)
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15:29:39 <|amethyst> I'd even be okay with a compat break simply to make the size of the minor version bigger
15:29:48 <|amethyst> but the chr format thing means it's not that easy :(
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15:30:30 <wheals> one could argue about which change would actually be worse
15:31:10 <wheals> forward compat is nice and all but how many people does it really affect?
15:32:12 <|amethyst> probably mostly devs, maybe a few people who like some old version but also some newer version
15:33:19 <wheals> a thought i had was to teach the save browser how to deal with new saves before we even have them
15:33:36 <|amethyst> that doesn't really help though
15:33:40 <wheals> so 0.14 might not be able to read 0.19 or whatever, but 0.15 would
15:33:44 <|amethyst> unless you want to commit that to 0.10 and 0.11 etc
15:33:45 <|amethyst> hm
15:33:58 <wheals> (if we backport it soon)
15:34:29 <wheals> the compat would still be broken, but gradually :)
15:34:45 <|amethyst> If we are willing to bump the char format version
15:35:13 <|amethyst> (or actually, not even do that, but suffer the same consequences)
15:35:42 <|amethyst> we can make sure the new longer minor version is stored as <255> <something nonzero> <anything>
15:36:11 <|amethyst> then the old code will thing TAG_CHR_FORMAT is <something nonzero> and therefore not disply the save
15:36:15 <|amethyst> s/thing/think/
15:36:22 <gammafunk> Is the game version stored in the char chunk?
15:36:33 <gammafunk> (pardon my being totally clueless here)
15:36:35 <|amethyst> Version::Long, yes
15:36:39 <gammafunk> ah ok
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15:37:28 <|amethyst> but you can't use that to determine how to read the major/minor tags, because 1. those are at the very beginning of the chunk  2. those are in every chunk, while Version::Long is only in the char chunk
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15:43:42 <gammafunk> Lasty_: what would you guess is the prob. of seeing 4+ caustic shrikes in a game?
15:43:43 <|amethyst> so I guess my proposal for how to store a bigger minor version when we are willing to introduce a chr compat break is   <255> (so the minor version always looks too new) <0x80 | top 7 bits of minor version> (so this byte, misinterpreted as TAG_CHR_FORMAT in old versions, is nonzero so too new) <next 8 bits of minor version> <next 8 bits>  (are 23 bits = 8 million minor versions enough? :)
15:44:02 <Lasty_> gammafunk: 4+ total? 1 in 3?
15:44:28 <gammafunk> oh, but isn't counter to your desired distribution?
15:44:43 <gammafunk> or is that your desired distribution
15:44:54 <gammafunk> (it's approx 0.0353355)
15:45:05 <Lasty_> I'm not sure what my desired distribution is. I want them to be a rare, top-end threat.
15:45:10 <wheals> |amethyst: looks from files.cc that len is unmarshalled after the minor version?
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15:45:26 <Lasty_> so, uh, I'm off by a factor of 10 there
15:45:39 <Lasty_> What are the odds of seeing 3?
15:45:40 <gammafunk> Lasty_: well if it were 1/3 to see 4+ it wouldn't be rare I think :)
15:45:51 <gammafunk> not much different
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15:46:16 <gammafunk> 0.03592738
15:46:25 <Lasty_> gammafunk: well, in a typical game I see at least 4 ancient liches
15:46:41 <gammafunk> Lasty_: well that's because of hall_of_zot
15:46:44 <Lasty_> yup
15:46:46 <gammafunk> which places a min. number
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15:47:33 <Lasty_> My ideal distribution would be something like "one shrike pack in about one out of three total games that fully explore depths", possibly with a singleton here and there.
15:48:17 <Lasty_> But my experience is that shrike packs are very rare and solo shrikes about 1-2 per game
15:48:31 <gammafunk> oh sorry
15:48:33 <Lasty_> well, 0-2
15:48:34 <gammafunk> I got the wrong sd
15:48:38 <gammafunk> let me try this again
15:49:19 <gammafunk> yeah 4+ is 0.09506309
15:49:25 <gammafunk> that seems more reasonable
15:49:28 <Lasty_> yeah
15:49:36 <Lasty_> Also, I suppose I'd like to see very slow Depths explorations get more shrike packs and very fast ones get fewer, which was the goal of making them OOD
15:49:38 <gammafunk> and 3+ 0.1419011
15:49:55 <Lasty_> that sounds much closer to what I expected
15:50:28 <gammafunk> Lasty_: I think a real problem with that is the fact that ood does not really mean "turn clock" in depths
15:50:34 <gammafunk> it means "what you'll find in encompass vaults"
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15:50:40 <gammafunk> or float vaults in general
15:51:04 <Lasty_> gammafunk: well, since most 8s and 9s are placed w/o bands, you generally get singleton shrikes from vaults
15:51:09 <Lasty_> and packs from the ood timer
15:51:13 <gammafunk> hrm
15:51:15 <Lasty_> but there are some exceptions
15:51:19 <gammafunk> actualy does ood timer place packs?
15:51:26 <Lasty_> It does in Orc
15:51:31 <Lasty_> so I assume it does in Depths
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15:51:46 <|amethyst> wheals:  oh, crap, that's right
15:51:56 <|amethyst> wheals:  well, that complicates things quite a bit
15:51:56 <Lasty_> (or else I've been subject to some really unlikely probability distributions)
15:52:08 <gammafunk> numbers are 1.49 shrikes on ave in depths, sd 2.24
15:52:18 <gammafunk> that's probably not changed in 0.16 I'm guessing
15:52:26 <gammafunk> compared to 0.15
15:52:54 <gammafunk> or did we change that in 0.16, now I forget
15:53:00 <gammafunk> maybe I just need a nap
15:53:00 <rchandra> sounds right, I usually see one or two in U vaults
15:53:02 <Lasty_> change which now?
15:53:17 <gammafunk> change shrike frequency between 0.15 and 0.16
15:53:27 <Lasty_> Shrikes weren't in 0.15
15:53:50 <|amethyst> changed it by ∞
15:54:19 <gammafunk> 1) that means they did change, so if I negated my original statement, then I'd be right, so I'm basically right and 2) I need a nap
15:54:24 <elliptic> I don't think ood timer places packs
15:54:24 <Lasty_> hahaha
15:54:29 <elliptic> I could be wrong though
15:54:39 <elliptic> it isn't something that design should be based around regardless
15:54:52 <Lasty_> elliptic: I've cleared out tiny orc bubbles and then come pack to find full orc warrior packs, but maybe that's a complete coincidence
15:55:00 <elliptic> Lasty_: what makes you think those were ood?
15:55:12 <elliptic> orc warriors are in depth in orc afaik :P
15:55:44 <gammafunk> well I agree with lasty that I've seen packs of spawns in levels that were def. clear
15:55:54 <elliptic> gammafunk: that doesn't have anything to do with OOD
15:56:00 <Lasty_> elliptic: oh, I see what you mean. What I meant is that standard monster placement places bands, and that OOD placement is a subset of standard monster placement. It sounds like you're saying that OOD timer placements are totally separate?
15:56:15 <gammafunk> ah yeah
15:56:20 <gammafunk> I see as well
15:56:26 <gammafunk> level spawns can use packs?
15:56:28 <gammafunk> but not ood?
15:56:41 <gammafunk> level spawns after level generation, I mean
15:56:55 <elliptic> Lasty_: no, what I'm vaguely remembering is that the part of the code that gives monster generation a special chance to be very out of depth is special-cased to avoid packs... but I haven't looked at this code recently
15:57:12 <|amethyst> _in_ood_pack_protected_place
15:57:16 <gammafunk> yeah, it would make sense that those orc packs were just post-generation spawns
15:57:19 <gammafunk> and not ood
15:57:34 <Lasty_> elliptic: oh, ah. For shrikes it doesn't have to be -very- out of depth . . .
15:57:41 <Lasty_> !source _in_ood_pack_protected_place
15:57:42 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc;hb=HEAD#l837
15:58:01 <|amethyst> if it's more than 5 livels out of depth, unless that check passes, bands are disabled
15:58:11 <|amethyst> !source place_monster
15:58:12 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc;hb=HEAD#l842
15:58:16 <|amethyst> (see chose_ood_monster)
15:58:22 <elliptic> that check should pass in depths though, no?
15:58:29 <elliptic> so I guess OOD bands will happen
15:58:37 <|amethyst> !calc 1400.0 / 117
15:58:38 <Sequell> 11.97
15:58:43 <Lasty_> what's the absdepth0 of Depths?
15:58:56 <|amethyst> 27
15:59:03 <Lasty_> oh, then yeah, it'll always pass
15:59:16 <|amethyst> yeah, that check only mappers above D:12
15:59:24 <elliptic> regardless "special" OOD spawns coming from the turn counter really aren't something you should count on happening in a typical game
15:59:24 <|amethyst> s/mapper/matter/
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15:59:55 <elliptic> since iirc they are extremely rare until 2-3k turns on a level, which is a lot
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15:59:56 <Lasty_> elliptic: yeah, it's not an intentional aspect of the design. I was somewhat blindsided by the way vaults handle bands.
15:59:57 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - c074f8c #2122 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56424274
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16:00:45 <gammafunk> gonna go nap and dreak about caustic shrike ood packs
16:00:51 <gammafunk> *dream, sigh
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16:01:17 <elliptic> Lasty_: as I said earlier with shrikes, I'd prefer if there wasn't this big gap between single shrikes and big packs, but I do understand that this is the fault of the vault-band interaction
16:01:22 <Lasty_> I suppose one way to handle it is to make shrikes placeable on (say) U:3+, but give them a small frequency and up scaling
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16:02:25 <Lasty_> anyway, heading home now, at which point I can nerf staff of power, at least.
16:02:50 <wheals> !source _god_likes_killing
16:02:51 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc;hb=HEAD#l17
16:02:52 <wheals> !source god_likes_killing
16:02:53 <Sequell> Can't find god_likes_killing.
16:02:56 <wheals> hm
16:03:01 <wheals> !source god_hates_killing
16:03:01 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/religion.cc;hb=HEAD#l3850
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16:18:42 <wheals> philosophical question: why does TSO mind you firing a bolt of draining from a spell into the air but not from a wand
16:20:12 <rchandra> the spell is you using necromancy directly
16:20:19 <rchandra> which is evil no matter what it does
16:20:36 <rchandra> (see Regeneration)
16:22:19 <Bcadren> LoS in crawl is radius of 8?
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16:23:15 <Bcadren> oh it's actually sqrt(65) ...wtf? ok.
16:23:28 <|amethyst> Bcadren: yeah, specifically dx^2 + dy^2 <= 65
16:23:40 <|amethyst> use use that so the circles are less pointy
16:24:16 <|amethyst> if it were 64 it would include (+8,+0) (-8,-0) but no other cell on those columns
16:24:39 <Bcadren> Level size is what? 128 x 128? [guess]
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16:24:53 <|amethyst> 80x70
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16:25:11 <Bcadren> ok. so for this test vault; 32x32x32 should work. kk
16:25:33 <Bcadren> I'm actually coding a mechanics test to see how crawl would work in 3D space; with just melee and one spell right now.
16:25:48 <|amethyst> you'd probably want to reduce the LOS somewhat
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16:26:18 <|amethyst> because that's a huge number of cells compared to 2D
16:26:37 <|amethyst> (not like hypercrawl or anything though :)
16:26:54 <ZChris13> Bcadren: which spell
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16:27:16 <|amethyst> also, in 3D the arguments for squarelos are stronger I think
16:27:30 <wheals> tornado, duh
16:27:48 <|amethyst> because the more dimensions, the bigger the difference between the chebyshev metric we use for moving and the pseudo-euclidean metric we use for LOS
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16:28:38 <ZChris13> anyway, re: speed 18 monsters, there is Black Mambas already
16:31:26 <|amethyst> wheals:  lol
16:31:38 <|amethyst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem
16:32:11 <|amethyst> tornado -> singularity obv
16:37:47 <Bloax> !tell ontoclasm https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9597 hi
16:37:47 <Sequell> Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
16:38:08 <Bcadren> |amethyst good point. I'll start with just CubeLoS, I suppose I could use non-cubic honeycomb, but that would make movement code SO much harder. I really do like how rhombic dodecahedrons look; but working in a grid make of those would feel pretty insane.
16:39:35 <|amethyst> the cube is the only regular polyhedron to tile space :(
16:40:11 <|amethyst> oh, rhombic dodecahedron
16:40:24 <|amethyst> that would work, but is probably not really reasonable to actually work with
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16:41:52 <Bcadren> |amethyst Yea I'm making a quick prototype right now; not insane art demo. haha
16:42:09 <|amethyst> hyperrogue is both!
16:42:21 <|amethyst> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1J_C5H_o0o
16:42:56 <|amethyst> (well, it might not be a 'quick prototype' at this point :)
16:44:33 <Bcadren> |amethyst practically; though there is some offset; none of the regular polyhedra that tile work much differently than cubes. it would LOOK different, but not that much of a difference in directional movement.
16:44:54 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-345-gb304c14: Simplify some tornado code (hopefully making it more robust). 10(65 minutes ago, 1 file, 13+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b304c1407b57
16:44:54 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-346-g4a5ca9a: Prompt before casting spells that will anger your god (#1930). 10(6 minutes ago, 4 files, 51+ 22-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4a5ca9ab47ca
16:44:56 <Bcadren> what is hyperrogue it looks weird
16:45:15 <Bcadren> Truncated Octahedra from Wikipedia
16:45:17 <Bcadren> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Truncated_octahedra.png
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16:46:50 <Bcadren> You move at diagonals, so it feels more natural to the player; but you can still take chebyshev distances that aren't that different than cubic ones. Less of a difference than hexagon to square in regular tiles, I think...and a lot of an interface screw (no longer easy to indicate directions).
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16:48:14 <Bcadren> Then again; i guess the jump from moving 27 directions to 14 is a big one. for a single move anyways; additively it decreases.
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16:49:06 <Bcadren> Offset Hexagonal prisms would result in 18 directions without being too confusing.
16:50:20 <Bcadren> Anyways; back to square-based for the moment see how reasonable it is for a player before going insane with something harder to code and the player to understand.
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17:08:50 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.17-a0-346-g4a5ca9a (34)
17:09:00 <simmarine> what is parrow + tso interaction? does he not mind you using it on rpois++++++++ dudes
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17:12:09 <ZChris13> I don't think he minds
17:13:44 <ebering> Bcadren: you should work in hyperbolic space with the right-angled dodecahedral tiling
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17:18:04 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 6c37a9f #2123 : elliptic): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56429400
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17:19:35 <Bloax> sounds fun
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17:36:53 <bh> !seen chequers
17:36:53 <Sequell> I last saw chequers at Mon Mar 30 10:36:10 2015 UTC (12h 43s ago) saying 'it's a pretty situationally useful abliity right now' on ##crawl.
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17:56:14 <Bloax> @??orc priest
17:56:14 <Gretell> orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-21 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 41 | Sp: pain (d8) [11!AM], cantrip [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d1) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
17:56:30 <Bloax> huh
17:56:34 <Cheibriados> orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 41 | Sp: pain (d8), cantrip, smiting (7-17), heal other (2d1) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

17:56:34 <Bloax> %0.15?orc priest
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17:58:33 <amalloy> last night, i found |pois on the floor, already identified despite not seeing anyone wield it, or finding one earlier, or already identifying all other staves, or worshipping ash
17:59:15 <amalloy> i speculate that it was actually wielded by arachne, but she was killed before entering my LOS by lugonu's corrupt-summoned monsters
17:59:32 <amalloy> is it intended that her staff should be IDed even though i never saw her wielding it?
18:00:39 <amalloy> oh actually, from my morgue i can confirm it was hers and that i never saw her. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/amalloy/amalloy.txt has "Killed Arachne" but no "Noticed Arachne"
18:01:23 <chequers> bh: hi
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18:07:18 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-347-g358cb93: Remove the Forlorn mutation 10(3 days ago, 7 files, 15+ 16-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=358cb933c01d
18:07:18 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-348-gc38a6e8: Rework Gozag's gold distraction to use a player duration 10(7 weeks ago, 35 files, 49+ 117-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c38a6e8078a8
18:07:34 <rchandra> thankyou MarvinPA
18:07:40 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.17-a0-349-g3d19270: Fix Gozag's gold highlighting being in the wrong place 10(46 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3d19270563d2
18:07:46 <chequers> rip forlorn
18:07:57 <chequers> about the only mutation I'd quaff curemut for immediately
18:08:03 <rchandra> mutation most likely to make me hate my character, at least at level 1
18:08:39 <Bcadren> I think I get it. HyperRogue is squareLoS mapped to a hemisphere (basic 3D engine) in order to look like a circle? [someone sent me a link to hyperrogue on this channel earlier]
18:09:16 <chequers> hyperrogue's map is a plane, not a hemisphere
18:09:49 <chequers> it uses hyperbolic rather than euclidean geometry
18:10:09 <Bcadren> I meant the game environment (plane) is mapped to a hemisphere for the display.
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18:11:12 <Bcadren> UVing a hemisphere to accept a plane as it's textureMap without any seams must have been a pain....well, with the amount of distortion, guess not; but trying to decide where to distort.
18:11:58 <Bcadren> Probably geodesic, rather than traditional globe mapped hemisphere or else there'd be more distortion in the center.
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18:12:56 <wheals> simmarine: yeah, that
18:12:56 <Sequell> wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:13:02 <simmarine> that
18:13:11 <simmarine> ah
18:13:31 <wheals> also, lots (most?) poison spells aren't guaranteed to actually poison a monster and if they don't TSO doesn't get angry
18:13:40 <wheals> also, meph never seems to anger him i think?
18:13:44 <wheals> is this chris again
18:13:45 <simmarine> meph doesnt really poison
18:13:46 <wheals> !messages
18:13:46 <Sequell> (1/1) ChrisOelmueller said (19m 27s ago): oh could you pick banish mr.chance fix into 0.16 as well? or will there be a larger chunk of assorted fixes in some kind of future
18:14:12 <wheals> ah, good point mystery guy
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18:14:44 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 53cf180 #2124 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56440874
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18:16:06 <wheals> amalloy: to be fair, it should also identify if you find it on her corpse
18:16:13 <wheals> because it would be equally spoilery not to
18:16:25 <wheals> so i guess that's close enough
18:16:32 <amalloy> wheals: she didn't leave a corpse as far as i can remember
18:16:39 <amalloy> but maybe i'm wrong
18:17:14 <wheals> yeah, just injecting a slippery slope argument
18:17:33 <ZChris13> aurgh
18:18:02 <amalloy> be careful - if you get into the habit of injecting slippery slope arguments everywhere, then uh...something disproportionately bad might happen
18:18:15 <wheals> doy: any idea why travis is now announcing the build passing?
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18:37:38 <Bloax> !learn edit fighting[1] s/$/ Its effect on your damage is 0.83x the effect of weapon skill (not counting increases in attack speed), so if you want to hit hard then train it too.
18:37:38 <Sequell> fighting[1/1]: The Fighting skill gives you a bonus to accuracy and damage in melee and ranged, and improves your hit points by Fighting * (3/2 + XL/14) (see {hp}). Its effect on your damage is 0.83x the effect of weapon skill (not counting increases in attack speed), so if you want to hit hard then train it too.
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18:41:56 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.17-a0-350-ga5db051: Change staff of power to a flat mp bonus 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a5db0519ae8e
18:44:01 <wheals> heh, going in circles
18:44:28 <ZChris13> what was up with staff of power?
18:44:31 <Bcadren> flat? so uneffected by the reduction at Rings of MP get?
18:44:56 <ZChris13> oh that would be good
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18:46:02 <Bcadren> How high would MP go without the curve down at the high end?
18:46:11 <amalloy> Bcadren: there was a recent commit to remove the MP stepdown
18:46:25 <Bloax> if you read the commit you'll see that it is changed from +(5 + (maxmp*2/5)) to +15
18:47:10 <Bcadren> ahh...so with no stepdown, DE get more Max at level 27 than a Hu would?
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18:47:47 <amalloy> well i think they already do
18:48:09 <Bloax> barely
18:48:14 <Bcadren> I was under the impression every race was 50 by SplCast 27, Level 27.
18:50:17 <amalloy> see http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e95019c67fd560dcd0f17c043feda5b7eab433fe for a summary of the changes. it looks like it's not final yet, but a direction they're headed
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18:53:11 <Bloax> can we also change mp regen from 0.07 + maxmp/200 to 0.1 + maxmp/100
18:53:14 <Bloax> thanks in advance
18:55:00 <wheals> you`r welcome
18:56:49 <Bloax> for reference see line 1285 of player-reacts.cc
18:57:29 <Bloax> oh and remove lines 1274-1277
18:57:41 <Bloax> why shouldn't DD benefit from guardian spirit
18:58:06 <CanOfWorms> technically, they do?
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19:00:49 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - d92d73d #2125 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56447354
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19:01:03 <Bcadren> Either remove DD or make them not be able to use godly healing; the opinion that they are only viable with godly healing isn't true...they are only one of the easiest races with it; without it...they drop to almost Mummy tier; but are still playable.
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19:01:48 <Bloax> "almost mummy tier" what are you talking about
19:02:03 <Bloax> there's just a chance that the game might be unwinnable at some late point in the game
19:02:12 <Bloax> otherwise they are much, much stronger than mummies
19:02:53 <Bloax> CanOfWorms: your mp is set to 0 and your mp stops regenerating
19:03:01 <CanOfWorms> yes
19:03:14 <CanOfWorms> but once you gain MP the effect kicks in?
19:03:31 <Bloax> and it's not like guardian spirit works by directing all damage to your mp pool
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19:03:47 <Bcadren> You have to be a lot more cautious with consumables than any other race. For extended you'd practically need necromut, etc. etc.
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19:04:52 <Bcadren> lack of regen is very trying for extended; maybe a normal game with no godly help is still easy; sure, but...
19:05:29 <Bloax> i can agree that they're practically impossible in extended without help due to torment being what it is
19:05:40 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.17-a0-351-g99cc765: Give Demigods +10% mp innate mut 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99cc765f512c
19:05:43 <wheals> this conversation is perfect
19:05:48 <Bloax> yes
19:06:02 <Bcadren> I'm also one of those people that thinks Fo and Op are very easy races so what do I know.
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19:08:31 <Bcadren> Dr, Fe and Mu are among the hardest though. Og is fairly hard, but not terribly.
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19:11:03 <Bcadren> I mostly think Op are easy for FE and IE though; easier to stack Rings of Fire and Rings of Ice on them, makes them have much higher spellpower than average by midgame.
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19:22:17 <Lasty> uh, did someone just change shop code?
19:22:27 <Lasty> this shop has a remarkable number of duplicates
19:23:00 <Lasty> side note: book start mp is definitely harder to come by now
19:25:37 <Lasty> oh, no, it's just a silly vault
19:27:24 <Bcadren> Lasty how much worse is it? and does it affect only levels 1-3 or later?
19:27:31 <chequers> the alphabet shop?
19:28:43 <Lasty> yeah
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19:30:59 <chequers> i like them, but perhaps should be much rarer
19:31:22 <chequers> found an E shop with two potions of experience on d:6 last night
19:31:49 <Lasty> this one has two manuals of maces & flails and two mottled dragon armours
19:32:15 <chequers> dang. time to go full grbe
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19:42:07 <Bloax> There is an entrance to Coxel's Commerce Corner here.
19:42:07 <Bloax> r - a +0 cutlass
19:42:17 <Bloax> 1 gold for a cutlass...
19:42:23 <Bloax> ..cutlasses don't exist.
19:42:35 <minmay> captain's cutlass does!
19:42:44 <wheals> that's awesome
19:42:56 <minmay> this is a good and perfectly maintainable vault
19:43:36 <chequers> spoilsport
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19:46:27 <rchandra> just have the shop generate random items, rejecting ones with the wrong letter
19:46:39 <chequers> infinite loop detected
19:47:00 <n1k> did wheals get a proper irc client?
19:47:10 <wheals> fraid not
19:47:10 <rchandra> I do think it needs to force its randart names to match, though
19:47:20 <n1k> ah, so you have to make conversations proper each time
19:47:39 <wheals> i am ALWAYS proper
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19:48:21 <n1k> yes, to me that's true
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19:49:27 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - fc496bd #2126 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56451061
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19:49:57 <wheals> yes i know i'm awesome at being a dev now stop sending me emails
19:50:09 <doy> i have no idea what would have done that
19:50:12 <doy> i'll look into it in a bit
19:50:22 <twelwe> i think suzanne is getting voted off tonight, this is an awful dance
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19:51:15 <twelwe> she looks like a package of skittles that melted back in the 80s!
19:51:17 <wheals> nobody cares about the author who wrote the hunger games
19:51:53 <Bloax> fr spiderform stabbing
19:51:54 <twelwe> ugh i hate when judges call awful dances `fun`
19:52:06 <Cheibriados> 03doy02 07* 0.17-a0-352-gc403f08: make the readme actually markdown 10(18 hours ago, 2 files, 189+ 159-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c403f088b41d
19:52:06 <Cheibriados> 03doy02 07* 0.17-a0-353-g089787d: also include the travis build status in the readme 10(18 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=089787d24fdd
19:52:09 <twelwe> wops sorry wrong chat screen!
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19:53:11 <twelwe> total honesty for a moment here i am a little shocked none of you watch dancing with the stars
19:53:26 <PleasingFungus> !tell marvinpa I don't disagree with the change in the commit, but I'm pretty sure that the gold effect could already trigger if monsters were exploded...
19:53:27 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
19:55:14 <Bcadren> I would like a god with Boots of the Assassin effect...[stab with Short Blade bonus on anything]. hehe. is there any movement on dpeg's rngGod?
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20:02:29 <doy> why do we have a pdf readme?
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20:09:16 <minmay> sweet. 2 crawl formulas down, 50000 to go
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20:10:24 <reaverb> minmay: ...2? I know MP is one but what's the other?
20:11:49 <minmay> I forget
20:12:10 <Lasty> minmay: you're welcome
20:12:18 <minmay> but 5000 more, and I will be the most spoiled crawl player in the universe!
20:12:46 <CanOfWorms> you're mad
20:12:50 <CanOfWorms> mad with power
20:12:56 <Lasty> yup
20:14:46 <wheals> you are already very spoiled
20:15:21 <minmay> wheals: shut up and get my chicken tendies
20:15:32 <wheals> :(
20:15:33 <wheals> ok
20:15:35 <wheals> master
20:15:41 <PleasingFungus> ~duvessa-senpai~
20:16:29 <PleasingFungus> wheals: "Like all cats, Natasha has more than one life; it'll take a few deaths for her to finally give up the ghost." <- bad rough draft
20:20:22 <reaverb> paritcularly since other monster felids (don't know if they spawn where they can be interacted with) don't have extra lives IIRC.
20:21:02 <CanOfWorms> there are monster felids???
20:21:03 <PleasingFungus> afaik they don't spawn where they can be interacted with, and if they do it's a bug
20:21:05 <PleasingFungus> well like
20:21:13 <PleasingFungus> you can do weird shit involving shatter/lrd on entry vaults, probably
20:21:22 <wheals> i think Grunt went and implemented extra lives for them
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20:21:33 <CanOfWorms> fr: new felid branch
20:21:34 <PleasingFungus> it might be species/genus-based
20:21:48 <CanOfWorms> features include allergies (occasionally paralysis) for species with noses
20:21:49 <wheals> ??bcrawl[felid
20:21:50 <Sequell> bcrawl[1/5]: planned features: rn-, level 6 evap, arachnetaur, yred revenant gifts, water magic, perma-enslave, imp race, dual wielding, fruit reform, blinkitis, fe^nem unique, felid monsters in general,  bdsm god, jotunn race, revival of dj, undead can worship good gods, tree race that can't use 1h weapons, acid brand, un-unranding salamander hide
20:21:50 <Lasty> CanOfWorms: deal, if we can remove player felids
20:22:02 <wheals> wow, first page
20:22:11 <PleasingFungus> that doesn't mention the felid mummies, however
20:22:40 <wheals> yah that's what i was looking for
20:22:46 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-354-g0ea11b2: Increase phantasmal warrior damage by 50% 10(38 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0ea11b2e6691
20:22:46 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-355-g9f34197: Improve joke acquirement 10(36 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f3419704e4d
20:22:46 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-356-gc56c144: Warn before getting Majin-Bo penance 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c56c144e3ae0
20:22:46 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-357-g6f4b25f: Don't give an EV penalty for using macros 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 31+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f4b25f9d154
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20:26:53 <simmarine> good commit
20:27:14 <wheals> rip crawlcode :(
20:27:20 <PleasingFungus> well
20:27:25 <PleasingFungus> it still doesn't display the ev penalty
20:27:35 <wheals> probably player_evasion and player::melee_evasion should be combined
20:27:38 <PleasingFungus> also I honestly didn't know about that invis penalty before I wrote this code
20:28:06 <PleasingFungus> probably you could just pull out everything but the invisible-attacker penalty. and then maybe remove that
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20:29:12 <elliptic> the invisible attacker thing is pretty relevant and also makes sense
20:29:17 <PleasingFungus> makes sense...
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20:29:23 <PleasingFungus> makes sense.......
20:29:33 <elliptic> as in, I figured this out by playing the game without ever looking at the code
20:29:39 <PleasingFungus> I did not
20:29:42 <PleasingFungus> we could have a poll
20:29:50 <elliptic> "why is this unseen horror so good at hitting me? oh, because it is invisible and I can't see it"
20:30:13 <PleasingFungus> what is your feeling on the accuracy penalty for being invisible and not having sinv
20:31:08 <elliptic> that one is questionable
20:31:25 <PleasingFungus> I wonder if it affects ghost moths
20:31:26 <amalloy> i get that it makes sense from the perspective of real-world physics, but it doesn't seem very "obvious": "oh of course i'll do a better job attacking this lich while visible"
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20:32:17 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 15c8c87 #2127 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56453881
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20:32:25 <reaverb> Maybe it could give messages like armour if it stays? "you try to hit the X, but fail because you can't see yourself"
20:32:47 <PleasingFungus> reasonable, if you can get the code working
20:32:54 <elliptic> reaverb: those messages are a bit misleading IMO
20:33:11 <reaverb> Of course even in real world physics proprioception exists.
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20:33:33 <reaverb> elliptic: Apparently they have mislead me, what's the nonobvious case about them?
20:34:00 <elliptic> a lot of people seem to interpret the armour one not as a simple accuracy penalty, but as armour making them fail to attack some proportion of the time
20:34:54 <elliptic> which is similar in effect but makes them think that the effect is more serious than it is (and they think armour skill is the only way to remove these messages)
20:35:21 <reaverb> Huh, I don't know what I'd think if I didn't already know it was just an accuracy malus.
20:35:22 <amalloy> can confirm, that is how those messages seemed to me for a long time
20:35:45 <amalloy> like "your armour skill (or strength) is too low, so you miss"
20:35:53 <doy> that is in fact how i did think it works
20:35:57 <doy> the more you know
20:36:23 <doy> (not that it matters a huge amount, because "get better armour skill" is probably the correct answer anyway, but)
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20:36:25 <PleasingFungus> rip
20:36:28 <PleasingFungus> doy: fwiw it's not
20:36:51 <elliptic> a very common question is "how much armour skill do I need to be able to use this plate armour?" and by "be able to use" people mean "not have these messages"
20:36:56 <doy> PleasingFungus: how do you mean?
20:37:15 <PleasingFungus> the rule of thumb that I've seen is to get more strength for heavy armour or more fighting/weapon skill in general; armour skill is generally only worth investing in for AC, since the acc & spell% benefits are very marginal
20:37:22 <elliptic> doy: raising weapon or fighting skill is generally more effective for this
20:37:24 <PleasingFungus> someone correct me if I'm wrong
20:38:51 <elliptic> (armour skill is quite good, but mainly for the free AC)
20:39:24 <_miek> yeah agreed.. I also thought that those messages were caused by armour (and lack of training in it) rather than mostly being flavour
20:39:50 <PleasingFungus> they're not really flavour
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20:39:55 <PleasingFungus> they're just... weird
20:40:03 <nicolae-> well, lots of things are
20:40:08 <elliptic> I mean, you get the messages more if you have a larger accuracy penalty from armour - they aren't totally misleading - but they are still not very helpful IMO
20:40:49 <_miek> you have an accuracy penalty and if you miss the message is just "you miss" except they add possible reasons for it based on what your accuraty penalties are
20:41:28 <_miek> or am I wrong in my understanding of this?
20:41:30 <gammafunk> ??cutlass
20:41:30 <Sequell> rapier[1/1]: (short blades; +4 acc / 7 dam / 1.2 base delay / 0.5 min delay). A slender, sharply pointed sword, with an uncommonly elegant design.
20:42:12 <gammafunk> huh, why are cutlasses still around in >34?
20:42:27 <PleasingFungus> captain's cutlass
20:42:29 <PleasingFungus> iirc
20:42:35 <elliptic> _miek: yeah, and this message happens if you would have hit if not for that specific accuracy penalty... or at least that's the idea, I'm not sure it even works right in all the cases we do this sort of thing in
20:42:43 <gammafunk> shouldn't it just be a rapier
20:42:48 <PleasingFungus> the rapscallion's rapier
20:42:53 <PleasingFungus> changing that was on my todo and then I didn't
20:42:59 <_miek> swashbuckler's rapier
20:43:05 <PleasingFungus> why do you hate alliteration.
20:43:11 <PleasingFungus> why do you hate fun.
20:43:11 <gammafunk> unbelievable that you didn't fix this PleasingFungus!
20:43:20 <_miek> there is nothing unfun about swashbuckling thank you very much
20:43:29 <elliptic> (and there's an arbitrary choice of order for stuff like when to give the rMsl message and when to give the phase shift message when dodging)
20:43:32 <amalloy> _miek: that's correct. if you miss, and if adjusting your armour penalty and/or shield penalty to 0 would have allowed you to hit, you get this message
20:43:37 <_miek> swashbuckler's sword
20:43:42 <_miek> double letter alliteration
20:43:46 <_miek> you happy?
20:43:48 <PleasingFungus> but then it's not clear what kind of sword it is
20:43:56 <_miek> its the kind of sword a swashbuckler would use
20:43:58 <amalloy> PleasingFungus: the kind swashbucklers use
20:43:59 <PleasingFungus> is it a long blade?
20:44:00 <_miek> aka a rapier
20:44:00 <elliptic> +1 for changing cutlass to a rapier and removing the weird thing where it still cuts hydra heads
20:44:13 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: I think you were the one who suggested it last time, ya
20:44:16 <PleasingFungus> probably simple to do
20:44:17 <_miek> although I have to admit that rapscallion's rapier does have more alliteration
20:44:24 <nicolae-> personally, i'm a big fan of alliteration, except for X and Z
20:44:42 <gammafunk> nicolae-: looks like we need to downweight shops
20:44:47 <simmarine> speaking of which
20:44:47 <gammafunk> alphashops
20:44:50 <PleasingFungus> opinion: is the weirdness of finding occasional pre-identified weapons on the ground (e.g. a staff of poison from arachne) worse than "spoilerness" from finding e.g. an un-id'd staff on fannar's corpse if he dies before you see him but before his corpse vanishes
20:44:51 <nicolae-> i read the logs at work, apparently alphashops are crapping out a lot of manuals and such
20:44:53 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: I was about to do that
20:45:00 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: s a m e
20:45:01 <PleasingFungus> I was thinking weight:2 but I'm running mapstat first
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20:45:09 <gammafunk> was going with 3 but that works too
20:45:18 <nicolae-> would weight even work, though, it's not a regular shop, i thought weight only worked with things that were chosen by tag
20:45:21 <simmarine> c -  325 gold   an uncursed staff of wizardry (unknown)
20:45:21 <simmarine> d -  325 gold   an uncursed staff of wizardry (unknown)
20:45:21 <simmarine> e -  325 gold   an uncursed staff of wizardry (unknown)
20:45:21 <simmarine> f -  325 gold   an uncursed staff of wizardry (unknown)
20:45:21 <simmarine> i -  325 gold   an uncursed staff of wizardry (unknown)
20:45:25 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: do not even try to sneak in a vanity shop name though so help me
20:45:31 <simmarine> found that in an alphashop
20:45:36 <PleasingFungus> wowww that's common
20:45:37 <gammafunk> weird
20:45:41 <nicolae-> oof
20:45:49 <gammafunk> simmarine: did you buy one
20:45:50 <nicolae-> that must be a weird fluke
20:45:52 <simmarine> not yet
20:45:53 <PleasingFungus> just running on D, it shows up 83 times
20:45:55 <PleasingFungus> out of 100 runs
20:45:59 <nicolae-> what the
20:46:01 <PleasingFungus> (possibly multiple per run)
20:46:17 <gammafunk> yeah I should have run mapstat on it to see that
20:46:19 <PleasingFungus> it's allow_dup and a pretty huge range
20:46:19 <nicolae-> it shouldn't be anywhere near that common, damn
20:46:26 <nicolae-> that'd do it
20:46:34 <nicolae-> you could honestly remove the allow_dup, i think
20:46:34 <PleasingFungus> question: what does "PLACE: D:6" do
20:46:39 <nicolae-> oh god
20:46:45 <gammafunk> uh
20:46:51 <PleasingFungus> is that what they call debugging code
20:46:52 <wheals> it lets us make fun of gammafunk
20:46:54 <nicolae-> oh god i left in the testing weight
20:46:56 <Lightli> oh god
20:46:57 <wheals> is what it does
20:46:58 <nicolae-> ...and so did gammafunk
20:46:59 <simmarine> :       D
20:47:01 <Lightli> that explains why it always popped up
20:47:05 <gammafunk> that is *not*
20:47:07 <gammafunk> *my*
20:47:09 <gammafunk> *fault*
20:47:18 <nicolae-> place d:6 means it will place on d:6, always
20:47:23 <nicolae-> i use stuff like that to test vaults
20:47:28 <nicolae-> sometimes i forget to take those lines out
20:47:29 <PleasingFungus> very nass
20:47:31 <PleasingFungus> very nass
20:47:32 <gammafunk> it's elliptic's fault because he's good with numbers
20:47:34 <simmarine> D:6 *
20:47:43 <nicolae-> BUT UNTIL NOW THE VAULT COMMITTERS CATCH THEM BEFORE THEY COMMIT THEM
20:47:47 <Lightli> fr: guarantee a single alpha shop in somewhere
20:47:48 <PleasingFungus> I'm rerunning mapstat without that
20:47:52 <PleasingFungus> to see if it still needs a weight drop
20:47:57 <nicolae-> oh god
20:48:04 <nicolae-> i feel so embarassed
20:48:06 <simmarine> so: why d:6 anyway
20:48:08 <gammafunk> nicolae-: and it's your fault as well
20:48:10 <nicolae-> i mean, even though we can all blame gammafunk
20:48:11 <PleasingFungus> just blame gammafunk
20:48:17 <Cheibriados> Ctrl+click or ctrl+dir tries to cast a spell instead of attacking without moving 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9599 by Hollow
20:48:18 <nicolae-> simmarine: i have no idea
20:48:31 <nicolae-> i usually just pick a floor, usually whichever one my wizmode character was last on
20:48:35 <wheals> nicolae-: why not just make it a normal serial_shop vault?
20:48:39 <gammafunk> yeah lets talk about how weird nicolae- is for choosing d:6
20:48:42 <wheals> (unrelated the PLACE)
20:48:42 <gammafunk> weirdo
20:48:44 <wheals> *to
20:49:05 <nicolae-> wheals: none of the theme shops are serial_shops afaik, all the serial_shops are just regular shops
20:49:06 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: are you also makinng the cutlass change?
20:49:38 <nicolae-> also the drumming_up_business shop with the ghost is a serial_shop and should be moved up to the top of the file with the others
20:50:05 <gammafunk> which one is that?
20:50:10 <gammafunk> oh
20:50:13 <gammafunk> nicolae_shop_scaring_up_business
20:50:18 <nicolae-> right, yes
20:50:31 <nicolae-> it was drumming_up_business until i realized "scaring up" worked better punwise
20:50:42 <amalloy> what is a serial_shop?
20:50:52 <gammafunk> it's where they sell breakfast items
20:51:08 <wheals> nicolae-: huh, for some reason i thought that they were also, ok
20:51:11 <nicolae-> there's a vault that places regular shops, for levels that have shops, serial_shops are the little vaults that it uses
20:51:26 <nicolae-> the stuff like a shop with a couple statues, or fountains, etc
20:51:33 <wheals> it's also what makes having several shops on a level have a higher chance than it would by chance
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20:52:27 <gammafunk> well, glad I diagnosed and caught that shop bug
20:52:29 <nicolae-> ugh. PLACE: D:6.
20:52:35 <gammafunk> explains why it was so oddly common
20:52:48 <gammafunk> the multiple item thing, we could address that by lowering the max items
20:52:51 <nicolae-> well, at least it didn't make it to stable.
20:52:53 <nicolae-> gammafunk: yeah.
20:52:59 <nicolae-> we need to get, like, a mathematician in here.
20:53:08 <gammafunk> nicolae-: it's just a binomial
20:53:12 <nicolae-> you are
20:53:26 <gammafunk> I looked at the probabilities for 3+ and it's not too bad
20:53:34 <nicolae-> yeah, i think simmarine just got a weird roll
20:53:36 <gammafunk> 3+ of same kind with 6 items
20:53:44 <nicolae-> how many w items are there?
20:53:47 <gammafunk> right, and with it being more common, you'll see extreme rolls more often
20:53:55 <simmarine> um, i dont remember but its probably about a dozen
20:53:57 <gammafunk> 8
20:54:06 <gammafunk> so 10 max
20:54:11 <gammafunk> can be in the shop
20:54:19 <nicolae-> maybe that needs to be toned down
20:54:34 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: I am not
20:54:39 <PleasingFungus> since I am very lazy
20:54:59 <gammafunk> are you fixing any of the shop stuff or should I?
20:55:47 <gammafunk> prob of getting 3+ of a type is ok I can do
20:55:48 <gammafunk> er
20:55:54 <gammafunk> is 0.1195022
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20:56:19 <gammafunk> and 4+ is 0.02746405
20:56:52 <gammafunk> if we made the cap #types - 1
20:57:00 <gammafunk> the prob would be 0.04630995
20:57:17 <gammafunk> 0.06734723 for a cap of #types
20:57:19 <gammafunk> to get 3+
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20:58:29 <wheals> wow, #9599
20:58:38 <wheals> truly amazing how broken this stuff is
20:59:08 <PleasingFungus> !bug 9599
20:59:08 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9599
20:59:10 <nicolae-> what's the cap now?
20:59:15 <PleasingFungus> ugh
20:59:41 <gammafunk> nicolae-: #items + 2
20:59:44 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: without PLACE: D:6, it's about 5 placements in D - probably more over the course of a game given it also shows up in depths & lair branches
20:59:54 <nicolae-> yeah, that's too much
20:59:56 <gammafunk> 5 placements...out of 100?
21:00:00 <PleasingFungus> yes, sorry
21:00:01 <nicolae-> oh
21:00:04 <nicolae-> that's fine then
21:00:05 <gammafunk> haha
21:00:06 <PleasingFungus> I think WEIGHT: 5 would be reasonable?
21:00:07 <nicolae-> i mean, to me at least
21:00:10 <nicolae-> sure
21:00:13 <gammafunk> yeah seems good weight to me as well
21:00:23 <nicolae-> dpeg had mentioned weighting it in the mantis ticket but it slipped my mind
21:00:31 <PleasingFungus> ok, I am shipping it like an anime fan.
21:00:46 <gammafunk> nicolae-: do you have a sense on adjusting the cap?
21:00:51 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
21:01:04 <nicolae-> let's just make all of them have 17 items
21:01:14 <nicolae-> let me look at the formula a bit and cogitate some reckons
21:01:17 <PleasingFungus> did anyone have any opinion on
21:01:28 <PleasingFungus> "is the weirdness of finding occasional pre-identified weapons on the ground (e.g. a staff of poison from arachne) worse than "spoilerness" from finding e.g. an un-id'd staff on fannar's corpse if he dies before you see him but before his corpse vanishes"
21:01:41 <gammafunk> nicolae-: yeah, I think it's just a simple case of choosing a cap based on the item count, though, since there's not much else you can do
21:01:54 <gammafunk> nicolae-: I don't think makinng the count a lot more complicated is a good idea
21:02:00 <nicolae-> yeah, ditteaux
21:02:02 <minmay> PleasingFungus: that's weird?
21:02:16 <nicolae-> PleasingFungus: i would say no
21:02:19 <PleasingFungus> amalloy was commenting on it earlier
21:02:54 <wheals> !vault shop
21:02:54 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:02:54 <Sequell> 1/6. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/shops.des;hb=HEAD#l76
21:03:01 <minmay> PleasingFungus: if I find a staff and a robe and a ring, I know it's fannar even after the corpse is gone
21:03:02 <wheals> that is an even better NAME than swamp
21:03:11 <PleasingFungus> well, it's weirder when it's like
21:03:16 <PleasingFungus> arachne
21:03:20 <PleasingFungus> and it's just a staff of poison lying around
21:03:32 <minmay> arachne existing is weirder to me than finding a staff of poison
21:03:32 <PleasingFungus> heh
21:03:34 <PleasingFungus> idk
21:03:58 <gammafunk> !lg * cv=0.17-a
21:03:59 <amalloy> fwiw arachne dropped some other stuff along with her staff. i think it was a robe and like...a scroll? some other vague item
21:03:59 <Sequell> 29704. Tabstorm the Cleaver (L7 MiBe of Trog), blasted by an orc wizard (puff of flame) on D:5 on 2015-03-31 02:02:13, with 562 points after 1021 turns and 0:05:07.
21:04:04 <gammafunk> rip TS
21:04:13 <gammafunk> !lg * cv=0.17-a kmap~~nicolae s=kmap
21:04:13 <Sequell> 54 games for * (cv=0.17-a kmap~~nicolae): 12x nicolae_whirlpool, 8x nicolae_lab_dead_adventurers, 3x nicolae_ru_great_annihilating_truth, 3x nicolae_qazlal_eye_of_the_storm, 2x nicolae_vaults_minivaults, 2x nicolae_ossuary_entry_catacombs, 2x nicolae_swamp_entry_splash_gauntlet, 2x nicolae_arachne_temple, 2x nicolae_spider_entry_orb_guardian, nicolae_lab_big_swirl, nicolae_volcano_entry_batcave, n...
21:04:19 <minmay> more seriously, you find pre-IDed items on the ground all the time because of vaults, them being the last "unidentified" scroll, or just because you recognize the item
21:04:33 <minmay> so I don't think this is a glaring inconsistency
21:04:36 <chequers> has anyone suggested removing the identification minigame???!?
21:04:38 <PleasingFungus> it does require extra code
21:04:40 <PleasingFungus> the extra code cost...
21:04:43 <wheals> impossible
21:04:48 <PleasingFungus> !remove chequers
21:04:55 <minmay> in particular, killing a unique gives a milestone, so you know it happened if you check ?: after every action which is optimal lol
21:05:19 <minmay> you'd have a better case with, like, a naga venom cultist or whatever they're called
21:05:20 <wheals> i'm going to go tell tavern that pf supports removing id minigame because it requires extra code
21:05:21 <nicolae-> gammafunk: i think changing shopcount = math.min(itemcount + 2, shopcount) to just itemcount no plus would work
21:05:34 <PleasingFungus> I honestly don't remember what they're called either
21:05:38 <minmay> i would be ok with that solution
21:05:40 <Cheibriados> naga ritualist (07N) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 8 | HP: 50-71 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 14, 403(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 687 | Sp: force lance (3d12), toxic radiance, virulence | Sz: Large | Int: normal.

21:05:40 <minmay> %??naga ritualist
21:05:44 <PleasingFungus> nice
21:05:46 <minmay> is that it, do those get the venom weapon every time
21:05:52 <PleasingFungus> they used to always get a dagger of venom
21:05:53 <minmay> or is it the other one
21:05:55 <PleasingFungus> specifically
21:05:56 <nicolae-> are those qazlal_eye_of_the_storm kills from before the no_rtele_into thing got fixed
21:05:57 <minmay> don't they still always get venom
21:06:00 <minmay> (why)
21:06:04 <PleasingFungus> yeah but it's not always specifically the same type
21:06:21 <PleasingFungus> please don't ask me to explain dungeon crawl.
21:06:23 <minmay> I guess it's not really different from frost giants always getting a battleaxe of freezing
21:06:25 <PleasingFungus> it's not nice.
21:06:37 <gammafunk> nicolae-: ok
21:06:40 <minmay> but venom is a more annoying brand :P
21:06:52 <gammafunk> oh uh
21:07:06 <PleasingFungus> wheals: http://sprunge.us/bGVR look at this diff. look at it. savor the wonderful -s
21:07:16 <wheals> uh oh, will minmay be angry that we buffed armour acq for draconains
21:07:17 <gammafunk> nicolae-: well no that doesn't work, since itemcount can be really large?
21:07:25 <PleasingFungus> did we do that
21:07:37 <gammafunk> the point of the code was to limit to 15 items max
21:07:45 <wheals> yeah, they can get bucklers now
21:07:49 <PleasingFungus> oh
21:07:49 <nicolae-> the second one!
21:07:53 <wheals> and no big chance for large shields
21:07:57 <minmay> you buff armour acquirement for draconians by accident like every version, i dont even care anymore
21:08:01 <nicolae-> line 225
21:08:22 <gammafunk> oh I see, sorry
21:08:27 <gammafunk> I thought you meant shopcount = itemcount
21:08:32 <gammafunk> or something weird (that made no sense)
21:08:39 <PleasingFungus> once, minmay was a firebrand, passionately arguing against buffs to draconian armour acq. but now, his fire has almost burned out...
21:08:59 <nicolae-> oh, just replace the itemcount + 2 in the math.min with just itemcount
21:09:00 <gammafunk> you mean shopcount = math.min(itemcount, shopcount) basically ?
21:09:02 <gammafunk> yeah
21:09:02 <nicolae-> yerp
21:09:12 <gammafunk> and add PLACE: D:7, got it
21:09:17 <nicolae-> D:6 you IDIOT
21:09:23 <_miek> the problem with good ideas is that they still take time to implement
21:09:24 <PleasingFungus> gotta increment
21:09:25 <minmay> PleasingFungus: while pre-identifying these items may have been done just to remove spoileriness (which makes it good in itself imo), it has another really nice effect which is that ctrl+F is no longer polluted with glowing battleaxes you know are freezing
21:09:52 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.17-a0-358-g6349eaf: Don't place alphashops on every D:6 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6349eaf8131a
21:09:55 <PleasingFungus> minmay: the question is how often monsters are killed without you ever having seen them
21:09:58 <minmay> I suppose that case doesn't really happen much now since weapon brands wielded by monsters are identified now, yes
21:10:13 <gammafunk> I love how I spent so much type simplifying that lua
21:10:18 <gammafunk> and didn't catch the PLACE
21:10:19 <wheals> not quite epic i guess
21:10:27 <PleasingFungus> it'll be good for the next changelog
21:10:32 <minmay> Oh shit
21:10:32 <PleasingFungus> wordpress post
21:10:34 <minmay> I gotta park more mucks
21:10:36 <wheals> 1learn add remarkable_bugs
21:10:41 <wheals> 1learn add fascinating_bugs
21:10:41 <PleasingFungus> minmay: !?
21:10:50 <PleasingFungus> speaking of which, I should strike out the bit about mp in the last changelog
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21:11:34 <nicolae-> i'd be honored if my vault got gammafunk put in the remarkable bugs entry
21:12:30 <gammafunk> that is not my bug!
21:12:33 <chequers> ??reasonable bugs
21:12:33 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled reasonable_bugs in my learndb.
21:13:17 <nicolae-> i dunno, man. Grunt always removed my testing PLACES when i left them in.
21:13:24 <nicolae-> *shakes his head sadly*
21:13:37 -!- ythm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:13:56 <gammafunk> What is a Grunt?! *throws glass*
21:14:21 <PleasingFungus> well, fine. if no one will endorse my desperate quest for - lines, I will stash the change for now.
21:14:26 <PleasingFungus> so long, sweet millimarvins...
21:14:39 <nicolae-> rip
21:14:52 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev
21:14:53 <travis-ci> The build failed. (master - 679af95 #2128 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56462410
21:14:53 -!- travis-ci has left ##crawl-dev
21:15:00 <amalloy> PleasingFungus: it's happening a fair bit to me on this AK game, and my previous game was Yred, where it also happened
21:15:13 <nicolae-> gammafunk: can you think of anything else that needs to be fixed in alphashops. i saw earlier that someone found a randart whose name clashed, and my main thought is "whoooooo caaaaaares"
21:15:14 <PleasingFungus> mm
21:15:18 <amalloy> only once has it been a monster with pre-IDed items though
21:15:21 <chequers> for 9f34197, surely xom should gift centaur bardings to nagas and vice versa
21:15:37 <nicolae-> i figure now that every single trunk player has tested it we might as well have some good feedback
21:15:41 <PleasingFungus> chequers: patches welcome
21:15:41 <gammafunk> nicolae-: I'm going to remove cutlasses (and probably fix captain's cutless)
21:15:53 <nicolae-> well, that'll happen
21:15:55 <gammafunk> yeah it'd be lovely if randarts shared the name
21:16:06 <wheals> nicolae-: the problem was more that it's not clear why "the ring of Fghtlyx {rF+ rC+ Int+3}" is in a "P" shop
21:16:07 <PleasingFungus> seems like it's be quite difficult to implement
21:16:07 <gammafunk> but that's non-trivial to do I guess
21:16:11 <nicolae-> unfortunately there's no way to do that with vault syntax
21:16:21 <wheals> is there any way to specify "non-randart"?
21:16:25 <nicolae-> yeah, either i'd have to just specify all jewellery as no_uniq
21:16:30 <nicolae-> yes
21:16:35 <gammafunk> well all types
21:16:39 <gammafunk> armour, weapons, jewellery
21:16:39 <wheals> or if not, someone can implement it (gammafunk)
21:16:46 <nicolae-> well, weapons at least still list their base type
21:16:48 <wheals> no, armour/weapons keep their base type
21:16:50 <wheals> yeah
21:16:55 <gammafunk> ah
21:16:58 <gammafunk> I guess that's true
21:17:06 <nicolae-> so it'd be the +0 battleaxe of Shitfuck but it would still technically work in B
21:17:12 <wheals> problem is that the ring of Fghtlyx is a ring of protection from fire, but nobody knows that
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21:17:18 <gammafunk> to me it's ok, the arte jewel thing
21:17:23 <wheals> since it's just the ring of Fghtlyx
21:17:41 <gammafunk> people will see the rF+
21:17:45 <nicolae-> yeah, it's annoying that the theme breaks but also it would be more annoying to require no_uniq on every ring and amulet
21:17:48 <PleasingFungus> or the rc+
21:18:00 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: no one ever sees rC+
21:18:16 <gammafunk> joke resistance for losers
21:18:19 <wheals> !send gammafunk the cloak of starlight
21:18:20 <Sequell> Sending the cloak of starlight to gammafunk.
21:18:28 <wheals> aw crap
21:18:35 * wheals drums his fingers
21:18:54 <wheals> oh travis popped in a while ago
21:19:12 <wheals> that's a lot of failures
21:19:39 <wheals> oh i see
21:19:42 <wheals> uuuugh
21:20:00 <nicolae-> "that's a lot of failures", says wheals, looking at the ##crawl-dev nick list
21:20:13 <wheals> this is really quite bad
21:20:21 <wheals> crash whenever anyone kills a hydra in webtiles
21:20:43 <wheals> actually, console as well looks like
21:21:08 <PleasingFungus> hm
21:21:25 <wheals> or maybe ettins?
21:21:47 <doy> whoa, our test suite actually caught a real bug?
21:21:58 <wheals> oh, a hydra that polymorphed into an ettin
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21:22:07 <wheals> or any monster, i suspect
21:22:18 <wheals> doy: crazy, i know? :)
21:22:57 <wheals> i thought that commit was too easy
21:22:57 <PleasingFungus> %git 679af95b9c5651250e609fb2b178c8ed701b67d2
21:22:58 <Cheibriados> 07wheals02 * 0.17-a0-344-g679af95: Let Natasha give her spiel when polymorphed (#8539). 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=679af95b9c56
21:23:03 <PleasingFungus> this one?
21:23:04 <wheals> yeah that's the issue
21:23:51 <wheals> i guess maybe it should do it only to natasha
21:24:06 <PleasingFungus> poor harold
21:24:15 <wheals> i should really make the gameplay justify the amount of code i do for this
21:24:18 <wheals> sometime
21:24:28 <nicolae-> rip harold
21:24:35 <minmay> nicolae-: +1 for renaming wrath of trog
21:24:39 <nicolae-> at least he gets the last word in
21:24:44 <nicolae-> ...what
21:25:05 <wheals> a - the +8 RIP Harold {antimagic}
21:25:14 <reaverb> wheals: I exclusively focus on the 1% of changes which get 50% of the return. Remove corpse sacrifices to change ~10 lines of code and make a god less tedious forever!!!
21:25:18 <nicolae-> ah
21:25:28 <chequers> PleasingFungus: Subject: [PATCH] Improve Xom acquirement for Na/Ce http://sprunge.us/MTbE
21:25:39 <minmay> nicolae-: that was in reference to battleaxe of Shitfuck actually, but lag
21:25:45 <nicolae-> ah, i see
21:26:06 <wheals> sadly, i'm on my winxp computer now
21:26:20 <doy> error: crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: patch does not apply
21:26:22 <wheals> so i get to spend a few hours waiting for git pull to happen
21:26:44 <wheals> chequers: that's based on and old version :P
21:26:50 <PleasingFungus> chequers: that won't apply, the first if is - argh
21:26:51 <wheals> s/and/and
21:26:53 <wheals> get with the times
21:26:56 <PleasingFungus> what wheals said
21:27:04 <wheals> you geezer
21:27:20 <PleasingFungus> update and report back!!
21:27:52 <wheals> i have to say this is a pretty great test though
21:28:06 <wheals> arena: miscasts 5 pandemonium lord v 20 20-headed hydra delay:0 t:10
21:28:36 <chequers> oh
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21:29:14 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: I was watching TS and he was going on about the various crawl problems again, and he mentioned randarts (again)
21:29:22 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: and then he bought gloves in a shop: -6 pair of gloves "Xucesmue" {rC- rN+++ MR- Int+4}.
21:29:34 <gammafunk> on his MiBe
21:29:47 <gammafunk> it was a good moment
21:30:38 <wheals> wow, another geezer
21:30:45 <wheals> oh, never mind
21:30:47 <chequers> PleasingFungus: http://sprunge.us/aRFF
21:30:54 <gammafunk> !tell Lasty Tabstorm was raging abount bad artefacts again to me, and moments later his MiBe bought these unided gloves: -6 pair of gloves "Xucesmue" {rC- rN+++ MR- Int+4}, so thanks for the entertainment.
21:30:55 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let lasty know.
21:31:32 <Cheibriados> 03chequers02 {doy} 07* 0.17-a0-359-g76a7a12: Improve Xom acquirement for Na/Ce 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=76a7a12ff8fe
21:31:43 <PleasingFungus> that was fast...
21:31:46 <PleasingFungus> did you even check if it compiled
21:31:52 <chequers> what's "compiled"?
21:31:56 <chequers> I write python
21:31:56 <PleasingFungus> :P
21:31:57 <wheals> PleasingFungus: that's what travis is for
21:32:00 <nicolae-> lol
21:32:07 <doy> man, i don't even need to respond
21:32:12 <doy> because everybody else has the responses covered
21:32:14 <chequers> well, it compiles
21:32:14 <doy> (:
21:32:28 <PleasingFungus> I'm glad.
21:32:29 <chequers> how to make xom give me boots?
21:32:54 <wheals> &X
21:32:56 <wheals> a lot of times
21:33:10 <wheals> alternatively, you could rewrite xom.cc to not be awful
21:33:19 <chequers> ha ha
21:33:21 <chequers> ha ha ha ha
21:33:32 <chequers> testing is overrated i suppose
21:33:50 <gammafunk> except! that it isn't
21:33:52 <PleasingFungus> ?/roleplaying
21:33:53 <Sequell> Matching terms (1): roleplaying
21:33:56 <PleasingFungus> hm
21:34:03 <PleasingFungus> chequers: what I did was two things
21:34:06 <doy> we have tests!
21:34:07 <PleasingFungus> when I was testing xom useless acquirement
21:34:10 <doy> they just caught a bug!
21:34:18 <PleasingFungus> I changed xom_acts to always do acquirement & return
21:34:26 <PleasingFungus> *armour acquirement
21:34:37 <PleasingFungus> and I changed the 1/20 chance in acquirement (for bad xom gifts) to 1/1
21:34:38 <Bloax> ??roleplaying
21:34:38 <Sequell> roleplaying[1/1]: <mikee_> an orc comes out of nowhere! i hate them because they burned my village down once <mikee_> i yell the name of trog and go into a berserk rage at the sight of the orc <mikee_> RARRGRAHA
21:34:53 <PleasingFungus> still love that entry
21:34:58 <PleasingFungus> not what I was looking for, tho.
21:35:17 <wheals> i guess xom.cc is roleplaying
21:35:53 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:36:12 <wheals> also, nobody please push anything in the next five minutes or so while my computer tries to git push :P
21:36:21 <wheals> oh, faster than i expected
21:36:35 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.17-a0-360-gfbf2426: Take away polymorphed Harold's speech (to fix crashes). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fbf2426704fa
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21:36:56 <PleasingFungus> wheals: yeah, I thought there was an entry to that effect
21:37:00 <PleasingFungus> but I guess I'm crazy?
21:37:12 <wheals> now to cancel all the builds
21:38:38 <|amethyst> hm
21:38:47 <|amethyst> re the delay macros fix, what about DEALY_MACRO_PROCESS_KEY ?
21:38:56 <|amethyst> s/DEALY/DELAY/ # plaza
21:39:46 <PleasingFungus> no idea
21:39:54 <PleasingFungus> I was looking at interruptible stuff in delay.cc
21:41:01 <wheals> |amethyst: any idea what that is??
21:42:02 <wheals> i tried to figure out once, i think
21:42:28 <minmay> As a new player of Stone Soup (started 2 days ago), but a long term roleplayer I am very surpised at this choice.
21:42:32 <minmay> Mountain Dwarfs are a stable of any RP type game, Iconic if you like. A race which any new player would reconize and understand what they are getting (the very reason I’m learning the game using this very race).
21:42:37 <minmay> If any race should go the Mi would be my choice, keeping the basic Role playing race of MD.
21:43:00 <chequers> mountain dwarves are an unkillable meme
21:43:40 <_miek> specifically mountain dwarves, not just dwarves
21:43:48 <PleasingFungus> or mèmè, for short
21:43:56 <minmay> It s roleplayin game alright is it not? I know that very often there are no dwarves in the gaming world. But here they were introduced. Why remove them? Once again, for me the balance is not an argument.
21:43:58 <|amethyst> wheals:  I think it's from crawl.process_command
21:44:21 <chequers> add a new entry to the roguebasin "what is a roguelike" page -- "primarily a roguelike"
21:44:22 <PleasingFungus> I've been trying to make hill dwarves a thing, but I don't think it's working... :(
21:44:31 <wheals> hm, what uses that?
21:44:33 <wheals> qw doesn't seem to
21:44:56 <_miek> for april fools they should reintroduce mountain dwarves, except they're just renamed felids
21:45:00 <|amethyst> wheals:  yeah, it doesn't seem to be actually used in the current source
21:45:12 <nicolae-> return mountain dwarves as an all new species
21:45:13 <nicolae-> that sucks
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21:45:18 <nicolae-> like, real bad. in every way.
21:45:23 <nicolae-> -5s all around
21:45:25 <|amethyst> wheals:  the things that might use it use process_keys or send_keys instead probably
21:45:33 <PleasingFungus> I guess we should do something for april fool's
21:45:35 <PleasingFungus> I guess....
21:46:28 <chequers> make every item on d:1 a mimic
21:46:42 <chequers> no
21:46:47 <chequers> REMOVE MINOTAURS
21:46:59 <amalloy> chequers: every altar in temple is secretly a xom altar
21:47:07 <wheals> it doesn't seem it actually takes an argument?
21:47:09 <wheals> not sure what the point is
21:47:10 <chequers> "we felt they were too similar to Hill Orcs, except worse, since you can't use GSC"
21:47:36 <|amethyst> wheals:  yeah, it seems to be something like "process the next queued-up command in this macro" ?
21:47:49 <wheals> surely that sure happen automatically, though?
21:48:39 <wheals> / If a Lua macro wanted Crawl to process a key normally, early exit.
21:48:39 <wheals> if (delay.type == DELAY_MACRO_PROCESS_KEY) return;
21:48:46 <wheals> hm
21:48:58 <doy> haha, the macro code
21:50:02 <wheals> ah, it seems the point is "allow pausing the current delay and doing something else entirely"?
21:50:07 <chequers> I suppose april fools shouldn't actually change game balance
21:50:17 <minmay> PleasingFungus: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6504
21:50:20 <wheals> that seems somewhat dangerous
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21:50:34 <minmay> chequers: Jr did, surely?
21:50:44 <|amethyst> wheals:  presumably for when the "current delay" is a macro
21:50:49 <PleasingFungus> minmay: good blast from the past
21:50:57 <|amethyst> wheals:  but yeah it's a bit weird
21:51:09 <Bloax> surely it's time to bloaxcrawl on the 1st of april
21:51:13 <wheals> oh, i guess i see
21:51:13 <chequers> minmay: Jr?
21:51:18 <minmay> also "I'm quite happy with my character's development. I choose to train my skills this way because it's more fun than micromanaging everything the whole time, and to me it's more in the spirit of roleplay. I do switch skills off or focus them as needed if I want to take things in a certain direction. "
21:51:18 <_miek> ??jester
21:51:18 <Sequell> jester[1/1]: A background added to trunk on April 1st, 2013. Started worshipping Nemelex with a Quarterstaff of Chaos, Book of Party Tricks and throwable pies. Removed a short while after.
21:51:18 <Bloax> see if people notice that!!!
21:51:20 <|amethyst> wheals:  note that _input() clears it: see the call to clear_macro_process_key_delay()
21:51:20 <wheals> wonder if any bots do use it
21:51:27 <minmay> "I guess I feel that it should be possible to play this way. There is a reason galehar put a lot of time and effort into coding the automatic training and in my opinion it works very well."
21:51:35 <wheals> yeah, seems a bit strange it's implemented as a delay tbh
21:51:49 <chequers> minmay: I mean, not do anything to break ongoing games / streaks
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21:52:02 <minmay> PleasingFungus: oh or did you want this one https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6302
21:52:06 <|amethyst> here's an example (the third comment from rob):  https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1181
21:52:07 <_miek> well it would only be in alpha builds
21:52:44 <PleasingFungus> minmay: did you see the reddit one about atheism
21:52:48 <chequers> some people streak in alpha
21:53:09 <chequers> the jewish redditor who was advised by their rabbi not to worship in-game gods
21:53:13 <|amethyst> looks like sendkeys + process_command does essentially what process_keys does, but latter doesn't work from within a non-macro delay while the others do
21:53:17 <minmay> the one about someone's religion prohibiting them from worshipping gods in video games?
21:53:18 <minmay> yeah
21:53:25 <PleasingFungus> didn't realize they were jewish
21:53:25 <minmay> that's actually a pretty common thing
21:53:33 <PleasingFungus> I wonder if it was a different person
21:53:35 <|amethyst> I knew someone once who played M:TG but not black
21:53:40 <_miek> ?/vimpulse
21:53:41 <Sequell> Matching terms (1): vimpulse; entries (2): hi_all[1]: see {vimpulse} | praise[14]: <vimpulse> Also, thank you, all, for making Crawl what it is. <vimpulse> (Probably the most-fun game I've ever played.)
21:53:42 <doy> yeah, i've seen people do that before
21:53:49 <wheals> |amethyst: at any rate, it should probably be renamed to not be the same as a mostly-unrelated C++ function :)
21:53:53 <doy> back in the day on rec.games.roguelike.nethack
21:54:02 <minmay> i remember a guy asking if he could play age of empires 2 because of the monks in it
21:54:06 <wheals> |amethyst: and it would be nice to expose that C++ function to lua, so tab wouldn't break if you remap keyboards
21:54:06 <_miek> um.. what
21:54:08 <_miek> ??vimpulse
21:54:08 <Sequell> vimpulse[1/1]: hi all. i just found my second bazaar (aptitude 70) on dungeon level 15 (skill 3).
21:54:44 <|amethyst> wheals:  you have to arrange to expose those CMD_ constants to Lua though
21:54:51 <chequers> vimpulse is a serial suggester to open source projects
21:55:00 <|amethyst> wheals:  anyway, I wouldn't gratuitously rename those if we can help it
21:55:05 <wheals> they are exposed to the initfile already, though, so how hard could it be? :)
21:55:10 <_miek> chequers: he was the guy who played atheist
21:55:19 <|amethyst> wheals:  hm, didn't even think about that
21:55:35 <wheals> |amethyst: you can probably do this search quickly, are there any uses on cszo trunk rcfiles? :P
21:55:39 <wheals> at all?
21:56:13 <minmay> ohhhh right, vimpulse had that too, it wasn't on reddit though it was in ##crawl
21:56:16 <wheals> actually, if by's example is still necessary HDAtravel might have it
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21:56:29 <wheals> i've seen vimpulse on reddit too i think
21:56:34 <chequers> _miek: like, for irl religious reasons?
21:56:41 <_miek> chequers: yeah
21:56:46 <chequers> hahaha it fits
21:56:48 <_miek> I think vimpulse was the guy on reddit too
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21:57:57 <_miek> oh maybe not
21:58:16 <|amethyst> wheals:  oh
21:58:26 <|amethyst> wheals:  crawlprocess_keys used to be implemented in Lua
21:58:39 <|amethyst> wheals:  as  crawl.sendkeys() + crawl.process_command() + coroutine.yield()
21:58:50 <|amethyst> wheals: err, crawl.process_keys did
21:59:05 <|amethyst> came across this from the SVN era: https://sourceforge.net/p/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/ci/a65b46bf18b32d66d1dc808f8c427f878e867c8a/tree/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/userbase.lua
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21:59:24 <|amethyst> I do see a few rcs with process_command
21:59:34 <|amethyst> I bet most of them could use process_keys instead
22:00:40 <|amethyst> yeah, they all seem to be the same
22:00:47 <|amethyst> :  if you.feel_safe() and over_edible_corpse() then
22:00:47 <|amethyst> :    crawl.sendkeys("c")
22:00:47 <|amethyst> :    crawl.process_command()
22:00:47 <|amethyst> :  end
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22:01:17 <|amethyst> except for reaver.rc, which is similar but isn't in ready() so maybe is a more complex situation
22:01:29 <|amethyst> though actually it looks like reaver.rc doesn't use the function that calls process_command
22:02:07 <|amethyst> anyway, process_keys I think does have some problems
22:02:18 <|amethyst> in that you can call it from weird times and cause crashes
22:02:43 <|amethyst> !bug 7151
22:02:43 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7151
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22:03:18 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.17-a0-361-gf52f002: Move a shop vault to the right location in the des 10(26 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f52f00291979
22:03:18 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.17-a0-362-g2bef489: Some tweaks to alphashops 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2bef4898fd80
22:03:21 <|amethyst> if that sky example used sendkeys and process_command it would probably not be broken in the same way
22:03:31 <|amethyst> I guess that's a case where it makes sense to pause a running delay
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22:04:09 <|amethyst> (that one was calling process_keys from an autopickup func, and autopickup funcs can definitely be called during e.g. explore delay)
22:05:14 <|amethyst> (crawl.process_keys, unless crawl.process_command, calls the C++ process_command right away
22:05:17 <|amethyst> )
22:05:44 <elliptic> |amethyst: I remember not being able to get sendkeys + process_command to work for botting
22:05:49 <elliptic> I don't remember the details though
22:05:50 <|amethyst> elliptic:  hm
22:06:08 <|amethyst> elliptic:  it would help if someone actually knew how macros worked :)
22:06:23 <elliptic> yeah...
22:06:57 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I did see some things suggesting sendkeys + process_command + coroutine.yield (and that's what the old lua-implemented process_keys did)
22:07:12 <|amethyst> but bits may have rotten since that last worked
22:07:32 <|amethyst> s/tten/tted/
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22:10:15 <doy> yeah, last time i worked on bots, it was sendkeys + process_command + coroutine.yield
22:10:23 <doy> but that was a long time ago
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22:12:33 <|amethyst> but I guess that's only if you're in a macro
22:12:45 <|amethyst> since e.g. ready isn't called as a coroutine
22:12:52 <doy> yeah
22:14:34 <|amethyst> hm
22:14:36 <elliptic> |amethyst: hm, just replacing process_keys(blah) with sendkeys(blah) followed by process_command() seems to mostly work but it fails if blah is "<"
22:14:47 <elliptic> presumably something delay-related
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22:16:58 <gammafunk> %git :/power
22:17:00 <Cheibriados> 07Lasty02 * 0.17-a0-350-ga5db051: Change staff of power to a flat mp bonus 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a5db0519ae8e
22:17:06 <|amethyst> elliptic:  hmm
22:18:44 <elliptic> actually hm, it could actually be that it is eating the command immediately after going downstairs
22:19:43 <|amethyst> it would be nice if we could turn crawl.process_keys into something calling crawl.process_command whenever it's *not* called from ready
22:19:50 <elliptic> I really don't understand the macro code enough to know what is going on, I vaguely remember issues like this in the past with commands being eaten or delayed though when I tried to use process_command
22:20:04 <gammafunk> !source tags.cc:4109
22:20:05 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/tags.cc;hb=HEAD#l4109
22:20:25 <gammafunk> |amethyst: did that just clobber the captain's cutlass unrand?
22:20:29 <elliptic> hm, what does crawl.process_command() actually return
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22:20:45 <elliptic> maybe I should look at that to see if the problem is there
22:21:05 <|amethyst> elliptic:  true if it actually will run the command
22:21:11 <|amethyst> elliptic:  hm...     const bool will_process =
22:21:11 <|amethyst> current_delay_action() == DELAY_MACRO || !you_are_delayed();
22:21:13 <gammafunk> maybe I should check the art data at that commit, since maybe it was somehow a different base type
22:21:37 <|amethyst> wait
22:21:44 <PleasingFungus> most unrand info is reset anyway
22:21:45 <|amethyst> captain's cutlass is a WPN_CUTLASS?
22:21:56 <|amethyst> that's bad
22:22:03 <|amethyst> oh wait
22:22:05 <|amethyst> never mind
22:22:27 <|amethyst> it's only moved in TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 34, not cut
22:23:50 <elliptic> well, crawl.process_command() seems to be returning true even when the command is failing somehow
22:24:04 <|amethyst> hm
22:24:21 <|amethyst> it doesn't actually run the command yet, just sets up a delay so it will be run on the next _input
22:24:32 <|amethyst> so there may be some problem there
22:24:42 <|amethyst> would probably need to look at the delay queue in a debugger
22:26:05 <gammafunk> yeah I'm going to make it a rapier
22:26:26 <|amethyst> hm
22:26:39 <gammafunk> oh there's the problem with delay, isn't there
22:26:46 <|amethyst> so testing it, it looks like it's still a cutlass across save/restore
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22:26:57 <travis-ci> The build was fixed. (master - fbf2426 #2138 : Shmuale Mark): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56511548
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22:27:03 <elliptic> gammafunk: delay?
22:27:04 <|amethyst> let me verify with a debugger
22:27:23 <gammafunk> elliptic: do cutlasses and rapiers have the same delay, I mean
22:27:26 <|amethyst> yeah, it is still a cutlass
22:27:28 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  yes
22:27:33 <gammafunk> ah well nm then
22:27:36 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  the only difference is that cutlasses are slicing
22:28:06 <|amethyst> which might be a reason to change it?
22:28:13 <|amethyst> since it's the only short blade that cuts hydra heads
22:28:27 <_miek> why do curse skulls have silent casting?
22:28:32 <gammafunk> well the only cutlass that generates is captain's cutlass iirc
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22:28:36 <elliptic> |amethyst: yes
22:28:40 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  right
22:28:54 <doy> _miek: all tormentors do, i believe
22:28:56 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  so "only" as in a single weapon, not even a single class
22:28:57 <gammafunk> so the change will involve removing cutlasses
22:29:00 <elliptic> _miek: probably because they have no attacks other than spells
22:29:02 <_miek> doy:
22:29:05 <Cheibriados> greater mummy (16M) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 189-211 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Dam: 35 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 6235 | Sp: sum.demon, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.emperor scorpions / sum.demon, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.undead / sum.emperor scorpions, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.scarabs / sum.mana viper, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.undead | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

22:29:05 <_miek> %??greater mummy
22:29:08 <doy> oh, i guess not mummies
22:29:22 <_miek> also elliptic
22:29:24 <elliptic> _miek: I don't think there are any monsters who can be completely nullified by silence
22:29:35 <_miek> gmummy, alich
22:29:39 <elliptic> _miek: they have melee
22:29:45 <elliptic> _miek: curse skull does not
22:29:49 <_miek> ah..
22:29:52 <gammafunk> _miek: elliptic can testify about dying to greater mummy melee, even
22:29:55 <doy> curse skulls should probably have melee, now that they move around
22:30:09 <amalloy> elliptic: silent spectre is brilliantly nullified by Sil
22:30:11 <elliptic> gammafunk: more like dying to greatest mummy melee
22:30:17 <PleasingFungus> doy: should they?
22:30:19 <elliptic> amalloy: it has melee
22:30:22 <gammafunk> hero mummy
22:30:31 <amalloy> really? i thought they just followed you around and loomed
22:30:36 <doy> PleasingFungus: well, they shouldn't move around to begin with, imo
22:30:37 <doy> but...
22:30:37 <_miek> I'm not sure I agree that silence shouldn't be able to nullify certain monsters
22:30:39 <elliptic> yes
22:30:43 <elliptic> @??silent spectre
22:30:43 <Gretell> silent spectre (10W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 32-55 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Dam: 15 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(40), 12cold+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 311 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
22:31:03 <_miek> I mean its a level6 hex spell so its not exactly easy to get up and going for one specific and rare monsters
22:31:06 <_miek> monster*
22:31:07 <PleasingFungus> doy: why shouldn't they move around?
22:31:26 <minmay> technically silence nullifies a plant as much as it would nullify curse skulls
22:31:30 <minmay> or a butterfly
22:32:21 <minmay> if you silence a battlesphere but not the caster, can the battlesphere still fire
22:32:39 <elliptic> minmay: I'd be very surprised if it can't
22:32:40 <_miek> the important questions
22:33:19 <gammafunk> what about servitors
22:33:24 <elliptic> _miek: L5 and a scroll
22:33:29 <elliptic> gammafunk: good question
22:33:54 <gammafunk> I think that's just an independent monster though
22:34:05 <_miek> there's precedent that silence should be effective against undead casters though
22:34:24 <elliptic> _miek: there's also precedent that it shouldn't be... that precedent is curse skull :P
22:34:47 <_miek> so... !sil for gmummy and alich?
22:34:57 <gammafunk> it does surprise me that curse toes are immune to silence when liches are not
22:35:04 <PleasingFungus> do all monsters of a holiness need to be identical?
22:35:05 <doy> PleasingFungus: interesting differentiation
22:35:16 <minmay> isn't demonic the only holiness that actually has a silenceableness associated with it
22:35:29 <doy> @??curse toe
22:35:29 <Gretell> curse toe (08z) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 14 | HP: 100 | AC/EV: 25/1 | 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4769 | Sp: s.torment [06!sil], sum.mushrooms [06!sil] | Sz: tiny | Int: high.
22:35:29 <PleasingFungus> doy: do you currently have trouble telling curse skulls apart from other monsters?
22:35:31 <|amethyst> servitors are silenceable, I believe
22:35:32 <minmay> i guess plant
22:35:38 <|amethyst> since they have MON_SPELL_WIZARD
22:35:39 <minmay> @??spellforged servitor
22:35:39 <Gretell> spellforged servitor (138) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 80 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 0 | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 485 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant.
22:35:44 <elliptic> anyway I don't feel that strongly about curse skulls/toes being immune to silence, but I'd like to see them get a (weak) melee attack if they are made silenceable
22:35:48 <|amethyst> err, their spells are
22:35:55 <minmay> elliptic: nerfing murray even more I see
22:35:56 <|amethyst> whereas battlespheres aren't actually casting spells at all
22:36:20 <gammafunk> yeah, I guess my concern is does the player know when monsters are or are not silencable?
22:36:22 <twelwe> skull bash will finally be a melee attack
22:36:24 <_miek> silence has the potential to be a very strong spell, so monsters are given !sil and instead its a mostly useless spell :S
22:36:27 <gammafunk> how do we even communicate the demon thing?
22:36:30 <doy> PleasingFungus: no, but "fast undead caster" could have been a new monster, rather than removing an existing one
22:36:44 <minmay> silence was still super overpowered when !sil was added
22:36:55 <PleasingFungus> doy: the reason it wasn't a new monster was that the existing one was bad, though.
22:37:00 <elliptic> gammafunk: it's poorly communicated, yeah... I really don't like silence in general
22:37:03 <minmay> it was made actually bad later with the shrinking radius
22:37:03 <_miek> minmay: explain?
22:37:06 <PleasingFungus> just a big ol mess.
22:37:10 <minmay> did you try silence in 0.5?
22:37:16 <gammafunk> elliptic: you'd remove the effect entirely?
22:37:23 <_miek> oh.. I thought you meant that even with !sil it was OP
22:37:24 <gammafunk> that seems pretty reasonable to me, actually
22:37:24 <minmay> !sil was on the same kind of things it was now, but silence was still ridiculous
22:37:32 <minmay> I did mean that
22:37:39 <_miek> well what would you use silence on?
22:37:40 <minmay> that's why it was made bad in 0.6
22:37:40 <doy> PleasingFungus: well, that's the part i disagree with(:
22:37:46 <PleasingFungus> :)
22:38:02 <minmay> _miek: in 0.5? everything with spells and not !sil
22:38:11 <doy> i know i'm on the losing side of the "all speed<10 monsters are terrible" argument at this point though, so
22:38:16 <minmay> in current versions? i don't think i have casted silence in like 7 versions
22:38:30 <elliptic> gammafunk: yeah, I don't think that "prevent the player or some weird subset of monsters from using a weird subset of actions" is good design space
22:38:44 <gammafunk> yes, agree
22:38:48 <_miek> yeah because by the time you get silence castable on a non-caster character most stuff has !sil
22:38:52 <minmay> ...
22:39:03 <elliptic> even if it was totally transparent and well-communicated how it worked, "make spells/abilities impossible to use" is not great
22:39:07 <|amethyst> elliptic: antimagic too then?
22:39:26 <_miek> I think it would be cool if monsters had spells that required somatic components and spells that didn't
22:39:33 <elliptic> |amethyst: antimagic doesn't make things impossible to use
22:39:36 <_miek> so silence would still let you reduce their spell pool even if not eliminate it
22:39:44 <|amethyst> elliptic:  but it does have the "weird subset" problem
22:39:45 <elliptic> |amethyst: when used on monsters it effectively makes them slow
22:39:46 <minmay> _miek: that already exists and it's terrible
22:39:48 <PleasingFungus> we just removed a monster that was sort of like that
22:39:50 <elliptic> that's true
22:40:06 <_miek> sort of like a spell that does a reverse Dowan
22:40:15 <gammafunk> am seems fairly consistently applied in terms of what it disables
22:40:21 <gammafunk> at least in comparison to silence
22:40:24 <elliptic> |amethyst: I guess what I am saying is that I wouldn't like silence even if it didn't have the "weird subset" issues
22:40:31 <_miek> which monster was that?
22:40:37 <minmay> I find AM actually harder to understand than silence
22:40:44 <gammafunk> minmay: how so?
22:40:58 <|amethyst> why doesn't it work on priest spells?
22:41:08 <|amethyst> do their invocations not cost MP?
22:41:12 <minmay> It's not *too* hard to figure out whether a monster needs to make noise or not
22:41:15 <gammafunk> answer is probably: it should work on them
22:41:25 <_miek> you could also make silence more effective but pulse around in weird blobs so monsters wouldn't always be affected by it while its active
22:41:34 <minmay> or rather, it wasn't until a bunch of monsters with some !sil spells and some not !sil spells were added...
22:41:40 <doy> "why does trog not hate priests?"
22:41:47 <minmay> much harder to figure out what antimagic works on
22:41:54 <minmay> doy: antimagic against players makes their MP go away and nothing else
22:42:07 <gammafunk> yeah I think am working on pretty much everything seems ok to me
22:42:09 <minmay> doy: players use MP for invocations unless they are with trog
22:42:23 <|amethyst> or makh
22:42:25 <gammafunk> maybe I'm simplifying thing sthough
22:42:47 <minmay> I actually preferred it when AM worked on things like dragon breath, I was correct much, much more often when I tried to guess whether antimagic would work on something
22:42:56 <gammafunk> yeah
22:43:00 <elliptic> I think both silence and antimagic are poorly defined in their uses against monsters, but at least I like antimagic's effect more
22:43:07 <gammafunk> AM working on dragon breath seems perfectly fine to mee
22:43:24 <_miek> yeah if silence worked like a field of antimagic that would probably make it better overall
22:43:33 <minmay> not working on dragon/naga breath doesn't gross me out too much, but not working on priest spells while it's flavoured as MP-reducing is ridiculous
22:43:40 <|amethyst> what about AM working on manticore barbing?
22:43:49 <elliptic> if you know that a monster respects silence and you get it inside silence radius then you can literally forget about all of its abilities
22:43:57 <|amethyst> or on krakens growing tentacles?
22:44:04 <minmay> if it's only supposed to work on monsters trog doesn't like then it should be renamed to anti-wizard or something
22:44:48 <gammafunk> manticore barbs seem also fine to supress, and so do kraken tentacles tbh; it's not like people really care about the latter anyhow
22:45:07 <minmay> suppressing kraken tentacles is funny but literally everything about krakens is weird
22:45:13 <gammafunk> s/supress/be vuln. to AM/
22:45:22 <minmay> don't really see the problem with it working on manticore spikes
22:45:27 <|amethyst> IMO then you should rename it from "antimagic" to something that means more like "anti-no-melee"
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22:45:34 <|amethyst> err, anti-non-melee
22:45:46 <_miek> anti-mundane
22:45:53 <_miek> pro-mundane*
22:46:07 <minmay> antimagic never stopped monsters from making missile attacks or moving or using items...
22:46:30 <doy> what's the difference between a monster shooting an arrow at you and a manticore flicking barbs at you?
22:46:31 <|amethyst> unless those missile attacks come from their body instead of an item
22:46:53 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well I think that's a fair point about there being some limitations, but I think elliptic is right that in practice the effect is a lot better design wise since the challenges of using AM are more interesting and it's not a 100% lock on the vulnerable monster's abilities
22:46:58 <|amethyst> the point of MON_SPELL_NATURAL is that those abilities aren't supposed to be magical
22:47:10 <|amethyst> it's purely an implementation detail that they are spells
22:47:10 <_miek> the manticore itself is a magical beast, and by hitting it with AM you're crippling its ability to be itself and launch barb volleys
22:47:15 <minmay> *shrug* I always thought manticores were flavoured as magical
22:47:15 <|amethyst> and in fact didn't use to be spells
22:47:20 <|amethyst> precisely so they wouldn't be magical
22:47:22 <minmay> same for naga/dragon breath
22:47:24 <gammafunk> |amethyst: sure, I think the debate is whether such a differentiation should exist
22:47:38 <PleasingFungus> should it be possible for monsters to have abilities that are not spells?
22:47:53 <PleasingFungus> I'd think the answer is fairly straightforward...
22:47:59 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: maybe?
22:48:04 <|amethyst> I'd hope so
22:48:04 <gammafunk> did I get it right?!
22:48:10 <PleasingFungus> I'm going with neil's
22:48:18 <gammafunk> dangit!
22:48:23 <|amethyst> Melee isn't usually a spell for example
22:48:27 <gammafunk> I don't like this class, I'm going to drop it
22:48:31 <|amethyst> and ranged item attacks
22:48:37 <PleasingFungus> the professor cost...
22:48:43 <minmay> again, I'd be fine if it just worked on the things you expect to use MP
22:48:55 <chequers> fr remove all the weird throwable "brands" (silver, penetration, returning)
22:48:56 <elliptic> personally I never thought of manticores throwing barbs as any more magical than a manticore walking around the dungeon in the first place
22:49:10 <|amethyst> I do think MON_SPELL_NATURAL is a little overused
22:49:14 <|amethyst> e.g. gargoyles?
22:49:17 <gammafunk> haha
22:49:20 <gammafunk> stone arrow?
22:49:21 <elliptic> I don't really understand why antimagic would stop barb-throwing and not stop manticores from walking
22:49:22 <|amethyst> they're just launching chunks of rock out of their arm
22:49:23 <|amethyst> ?
22:49:28 <gammafunk> @??gargoyle
22:49:29 <Gretell> gargoyle (159) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 20-35 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Dam: 20 | 11non-living, 10items, 10doors, fly | Res: 06magic(40), 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 415 | Sp: stone arrow (3d12) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
22:49:32 <elliptic> or from meleeing you
22:49:36 <doy> @??prince ribbit
22:49:36 <Gretell> Prince Ribbit (11F) | Spd: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | HP: 40 | AC/EV: 0/16 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 277 | Sp: blink [11!AM, 06!sil], teleport self [04emergency] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
22:49:36 <minmay> |amethyst: no, they're throws stone arrow at you. can't you read the messages
22:49:37 <gammafunk> yeah that is weird
22:49:58 <doy> @??mara
22:49:58 <Gretell> Mara (13R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 140 | AC/EV: 12/14 | Dam: 30 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140), 05fire++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4614 | Sp: blink [11!AM, 06!sil], b.fire (3d27) [06!sil], mara summon [06!sil], sum.illusion [06!sil], pain (d17) [06!sil], teleport self [06!sil, 04emergency] | Sz: ..
22:49:59 <|amethyst> blink frog blinking could be a magical ability instead of a natural one
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22:50:18 <doy> @??orb spider
22:50:18 <Gretell> orb spider (06s) | Spd: 12 (spell: 200%) | HD: 7 | HP: 34-50 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 5 | web sense | Res: 06magic(40) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 585 | Sp: o.destruction (9d9) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: insect.
22:50:19 <|amethyst> likewise ghostly flames, chaos breath, fire crab breath, dragon breath
22:50:25 <minmay> oh, that's another thing I always expected AM to work on
22:50:36 <minmay> mara's blink is !AM what
22:50:40 <doy> yeah, there are certainly a few things that are weirdly categorized as natural
22:50:42 <gammafunk> minmay: demon
22:50:45 <gammafunk> oh
22:50:47 <gammafunk> nm sorry
22:50:49 <gammafunk> !AM
22:51:04 <doy> @??basilisk
22:51:04 <Gretell> basilisk (06l) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 28-44 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Dam: 20 | cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 233 | Sp: petrify [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: little | Int: reptile.
22:51:07 <gammafunk> yeah that's probably because "rakshasa"
22:51:12 <minmay> @??rakshasa
22:51:12 <Gretell> rakshasa (08R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 50-84 | AC/EV: 8/14 | Dam: 20 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140), 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 993 | Sp: mystic blast (3d16) [06!sil], phantom mirror [06!sil], blink [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.
22:51:19 <gammafunk> alright
22:51:21 <minmay> fuck you, crawl
22:51:24 <gammafunk> fine I retract my statement
22:51:33 <doy> yeah, rakshasas have demonic blink
22:51:43 <elliptic> mara's blink being !AM looks like a bug IMO
22:51:45 <doy> yeah
22:51:51 <gammafunk> doy: it's more frightening than demonic plants!
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22:52:11 <|amethyst> oh
22:52:14 <|amethyst> mara's blink
22:52:20 <|amethyst> is because he used to have M_BLINKER
22:52:29 <|amethyst> %git 425b0bdb
22:52:29 <Cheibriados> 07Grunt02 * 0.16-a0-1479-g425b0bd: Replace and remove M_BLINKER, M_SHROUD, and M_OZOCUBUS_ARMOUR. 10(5 months ago, 6 files, 32+ 34-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=425b0bdbe326
22:52:44 <|amethyst> and I imagine M_BLINKER was never affected by antimagic
22:53:09 <Cheibriados> 03doy02 07* 0.17-a0-363-gba34ccd: mara's blink should be demonic, like rakshasas 10(68 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ba34ccd419cf
22:53:12 <|amethyst> since it was involuntary
22:53:20 <elliptic> @??alligator
22:53:20 <Gretell> alligator (12t) | Spd: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | HP: 57-90 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 30, 15 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 892 | Sp: swiftness [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.
22:53:33 <minmay> PleasingFungus: I can't really think of many abilities that don't make sense as magical? manticore spikes, tentacles, and uh...why do alligators have that, again
22:53:33 <|amethyst> that one's supposed to be a natural burst of speed
22:53:37 <elliptic> yeah
22:53:47 <doy> yeah, same with jumping spiders
22:53:49 <doy> those are reasonable
22:54:08 <elliptic> jumping spider, alligator, manticore having !AM all seem pretty reasonable to me
22:54:18 <doy> prince ribbit is natural blink because blink frogs are natural blink, but both of those could probably be magical
22:54:21 <minmay> does alligator swiftness actually make them more dangerous
22:54:24 <elliptic> no
22:54:32 <doy> @??giant eyeball
22:54:32 <Gretell> giant eyeball (16G) | Spd: 3 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-22 | AC/EV: 0/1 | lev | Res: 06magic(10), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 8 | Sp: paralysis gaze [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant.
22:54:38 <minmay> i think the alligator losing an action counteracts whatever benefit it might have from going from "faster than you" to "faster than you, plus a bit faster"
22:54:46 <elliptic> @??golden eye
22:54:46 <Gretell> golden eye (08G) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 6-18 | AC/EV: 0/20 | lev | Res: 06magic(60), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 191 | Sp: confusion gaze [11!AM, 06!sil], blink [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.
22:54:50 <doy> @??brain worm
22:54:50 <Gretell> brain worm (13w) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 18-28 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Dam: 6 | evil | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 95 | Sp: brain feed [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: insect.
22:55:02 <|amethyst> kraken spells should probably stay natural
22:55:12 <|amethyst> brain worm and eyes could go 'magical'
22:55:16 <_miek> I always liked the idea that !sil was simple
22:55:18 <elliptic> |amethyst: sounds good
22:55:24 <elliptic> _miek: where did you get that idea
22:55:27 <_miek> demons, statues, natural abilities
22:55:29 <|amethyst> not sure about dragon breaths
22:55:37 <elliptic> _miek: what does "natural abilities" mean
22:55:42 <doy> _miek: well... that has never been the case
22:55:43 <doy> (:
22:55:53 <minmay> !sil was simple when it didn't exist
22:55:58 <|amethyst> I feel like "spit poison" at least should be natural
22:56:00 <_miek> yes I said I liked the idea that I had when I had no reason to think !sil existed because I was just a scrub
22:56:01 <doy> |amethyst: i think it depends on the breath
22:56:04 <doy> yeah
22:56:14 <doy> i can see cold/fire being natural too
22:56:15 <_miek> and natural abilities is what you guys are discussing now right?
22:56:18 <doy> and poison cloud
22:56:26 <doy> maybe lightning
22:56:31 <|amethyst> berserker rage would stay natural
22:56:41 <|amethyst> in MST_BERSERKER_ESCAPE I mean
22:56:42 <chequers> perhaps there are too many categories. There is anti-magic and silence and some abilities in all four possible permutations of "affected by"
22:56:44 <|amethyst> MST_BEAR
22:56:46 <doy> yeah
22:57:02 <|amethyst> chequers:  and there are more types of abilities than just 4
22:57:17 <doy> chequers: yeah, someone earlier mentioned replacing silence with "antimagic aura", which might not be the worst idea
22:57:22 <minmay> so you're removing silence right
22:57:42 <|amethyst> orb spider should definitely be magical
22:58:00 <chequers> I always thought orb spider was weaving an orb of energy, which didn't seem inherently magical
22:58:06 <|amethyst> I think catoblepas should be natural but basilisk magical, but am open to persuasion either way
22:58:11 <doy> "weaving an orb of energy" doesn't seem magical?
22:58:17 <_miek> grabbing the energy for the weaving is the magical part
22:58:17 <|amethyst> chequers:  "orb of energy" seems magical enough to me :)
22:58:27 <chequers> pfft, logic
22:58:29 <doy> |amethyst: that was how i was leaning too
22:58:42 <doy> { SPELL_BRAIN_FEED, 55, MON_SPELL_NATURAL /*???*/}
22:58:44 <doy> haha
22:58:46 <|amethyst> corrupting pulse should be magical
22:58:58 <elliptic> |amethyst: I think catoblepas should be the same as dragon
22:59:02 <|amethyst> thrashing horror might I think probably natural but could go either way
22:59:04 <chequers> brain worms don't need to be in melee range, so it seems magical
22:59:11 <doy> elliptic: yeah, i'm leaning toward dragons being natural
22:59:18 <|amethyst> I'm undecided on dragons
22:59:23 <_miek> I suppose if you could explain it in the real world with chemistry or physics then you could make the case for it being natural
22:59:24 <doy> but yeah, not entirely sure
22:59:25 <minmay> @??thrashing horror
22:59:25 <Gretell> thrashing horror (08X) | Spd: 25 | HD: 9 | HP: 39-62 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 1707(trample), 907(trample) | 11non-living, 10doors | Res: 06magic(60), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 837 | Sp: might [11!AM, 06!sil, 04emergency] | Sz: Big | Int: animal.
22:59:34 <_miek> like dragon breath, or that gargoyle stone throw
22:59:39 <|amethyst> definitely quicksilver breath should be magical
22:59:49 <|amethyst> but e.g. metal splinters I'm not sure about
22:59:50 <minmay> I don't think you can explain any of these monsters existing with chemistry or physics, let alone breathing fire
22:59:50 <_miek> although yeah depends on the breath
23:00:05 <elliptic> |amethyst: IMO if quicksilver dragon breath is magical then they all should be
23:00:06 <minmay> ...I never realized that thrashing horrors had might
23:00:07 <_miek> minmay: not the monsters existing, but thanks for twisting my words
23:00:19 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I wouldn't mind them all being
23:00:20 <gammafunk> yes, making one breath magical and another not seems bad
23:00:25 <|amethyst> sentinel horn "natural"
23:00:36 <_miek> this is true
23:00:38 <|amethyst> likewise battlecry
23:00:44 <|amethyst> wind drake is weird
23:00:47 <doy> wait
23:00:57 <doy> what is the difference between MON_SPELL_MAGICAL and MON_SPELL_WIZARD
23:01:04 <|amethyst> doy:  trog and silence
23:01:19 <doy> oh, so trog only dislikes _WIZARD
23:01:26 <|amethyst> yes, see
23:01:47 <|amethyst> !source mon_spell_slot_flags
23:01:47 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/mon-book.h;hb=HEAD#l15
23:02:08 <|amethyst> silence is wizard | priest (and the spell-no-silent flag for things like signal horn)
23:02:15 <|amethyst> antimagic is magical | wizard | demonic
23:02:22 <|amethyst> where angelic = demonic
23:02:35 <doy> "of course"
23:03:07 <|amethyst> I think we worked out that "magical" and "demonic" have no difference other than casting messages
23:03:28 <doy> so _WIZARD should only be for intelligent monsters intentionally casting spells
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23:03:44 <|amethyst> yes, _WIZARD is if they used the z key to do it
23:03:50 <doy> hmmm
23:03:53 <doy> what about orb spiders
23:04:03 <|amethyst> I'd argume MONS_SPELL_MAGICAL
23:04:06 <doy> okay
23:04:08 <|amethyst> s/gume/gue/
23:04:31 <|amethyst> all the ones I mentioned as "magical" I meant MONS_SPELL_MAGICAL
23:04:52 <|amethyst> I didn't notice anything that I think should go natural -> wizard
23:05:06 -!- travis-ci has joined ##crawl-dev
23:05:07 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 2bef489 #2139 : gammafunk): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/56513563
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23:06:02 <|amethyst> doy:  I think I wrote some descriptions for these in the manual
23:06:27 <doy> @??wind drake
23:06:27 <Gretell> wind drake (16k) | Spd: 12 | HD: 8 | HP: 47-72 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Dam: 12 | fly | Res: 06magic(40), 12wind | XP: 285 | Sp: wind blast [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], airstrike (0-26) [11!AM, 06!sil], deflect missiles [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
23:06:29 <|amethyst> oh, but not in much detail
23:06:34 <doy> should all of these be natural?
23:06:40 <|amethyst> doy:  it's kind of weird
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23:06:44 <doy> or just the breath?
23:06:50 <doy> or just not dmsl?
23:06:53 <doy> can't decide
23:06:55 <|amethyst> doy:  the airstrike is themed as flapping its wings at you
23:07:00 <doy> okay
23:07:08 <doy> i'll keep it all natural for now
23:07:14 <doy> @??thorn hunter
23:07:14 <Gretell> thorn hunter (16f) | Spd: 12 (swim: 120%) | HD: 15 | HP: 82-114 | AC/EV: 9/9 | Dam: 27, 23 | 03plant, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2120 | Sp: v.thorns (3d18) [11!AM, 06!sil], w.brambles [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
23:07:18 <doy> what about wall of brambles
23:07:22 <|amethyst> doy:  but it seems a little silly... anyway, if it does change, there are casting messages that would need to be fixed
23:07:29 <|amethyst> I was thinking about that
23:07:49 <|amethyst> I think thorn volley is good as natural, but brambles could go either way
23:07:57 <PleasingFungus> seems simpler not to mix ability types
23:07:59 <elliptic> monster DMsl doesn't actually get cast, no? it is just always up?
23:07:59 <|amethyst> I guess it's kind of magical because it spawns them at a distance?
23:08:10 <elliptic> so being !AM and !sil shouldn't matter?
23:08:13 <doy> elliptic: true
23:08:19 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: I *think* it might be possible for some cancellation effects to knock it down, these days?
23:08:32 <PleasingFungus> like, purple drac breath
23:08:34 <doy> @??orange crystal statue
23:08:34 <Gretell> orange crystal statue (048) | Spd: 6 (07stationary) | HD: 10 | HP: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | 11non-living, evil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy | XP: 412 | Sp: brain feed [11!AM, 06!sil], draining gaze [11!AM, 06!sil], mass confusion [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: high.
23:08:50 <doy> there's a comment specifically saying that ocs shouldn't be affected by antimagic
23:08:57 <doy> but...
23:09:03 <elliptic> doy: that's weird IMO
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23:09:05 <doy> yeah
23:09:16 <PleasingFungus> don't see any reason for that
23:09:31 <|amethyst> oh
23:09:39 <|amethyst> I guess because it's supposed to be psionics, not magic
23:09:40 <|amethyst> :P
23:10:07 <doy> well, once we introduce psionics into crawl, we can revisit the decision
23:10:09 <doy> (:
23:10:14 <elliptic> yes
23:10:14 <PleasingFungus> psionics.....
23:10:22 <|amethyst> MON_SPELL_PSIONIC could be yours today!
23:10:33 <|amethyst> I guess that was the justification for brain worm etc too?
23:10:50 <doy> probably
23:10:52 <doy> shrug
23:10:56 <doy> @??moth of wrath
23:10:56 <Gretell> moth of wrath (04y) | Spd: 12 | HD: 9 | HP: 39-62 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 2505(rage) | fly | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 499 | Sp: berserk other [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: insect.
23:11:11 <doy> @??queen bee
23:11:12 <Gretell> queen bee (13y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 28-48 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 2008(poison:14-28) | fly | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 303 | Sp: berserk other [11!AM, 06!sil], berserk other [11!AM, 06!sil, 04emergency] | Sz: little | Int: insect.
23:11:31 <|amethyst> could go either way for moth
23:11:38 <|amethyst> I think bee would be natural
23:11:42 <|amethyst> they're pheromones
23:11:54 <doy> @??phantasmal warrior
23:11:54 <Gretell> phantasmal warrior (09W) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 39-62 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Dam: 2612(vuln) | 07undead, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 538 | Sp: blink close [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.
23:12:05 <doy> why would that have ever been natural
23:12:11 <elliptic> IMO the moth is natural, it just flaps around and gets in your face and enrages you :P
23:12:50 <doy> @??siren
23:12:50 <Gretell> siren (10m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | HP: 31-48 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 19 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 471 | Sp: siren song [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
23:12:57 <gammafunk> AM preventing moth of wrath berzerk? That ruins my roleplaying completely and I'd never wear my animal skin ever again
23:13:08 <doy> @??merfolk avatar
23:13:08 <Gretell> merfolk avatar (11m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 75-92 | AC/EV: 4/12 | amphibious | Res: 06magic(120), 12drown | XP: 933 | Sp: avatar song [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
23:13:36 <_miek> that's a weird one.. silenceable but not AM
23:13:38 <|amethyst> I'd say beholding is pretty magical
23:13:48 <|amethyst> _miek:  because it's a sound-based effect
23:13:56 <doy> @??ushabti
23:13:56 <_miek> yeah the silenceable part makes sense
23:13:56 <Gretell> ushabti (078) | Spd: 8 | HD: 7 | HP: 39-52 | AC/EV: 9/6 | Dam: 30 | 11non-living, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy | XP: 258 | Sp: death rattle (2d4) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: little | Int: normal.
23:14:10 <|amethyst> _miek:  there are a few slots with an extra MON_SPELL_NO_SILENT flag on top of the spell type
23:14:22 <doy> @??anubis guard
23:14:22 <Gretell> anubis guard (10H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 37-62 | AC/EV: 5/13 | Dam: 30, 2013(drain) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(40), 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy | XP: 634 | Sp: hunting cry [11!AM, 08breath], b.draining (3d17) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], dispel undead (3d16) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
23:14:26 <|amethyst> hmm
23:14:35 <|amethyst> how is "death rattle" themed?
23:14:37 <doy> i guess anubis guards are breath
23:14:43 <|amethyst> because it sounds like it shouldn't be silenceable
23:14:43 <doy> no idea about death rattle
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23:14:49 <doy> haven't done tomb since it was added
23:15:16 <|amethyst> "hunting cry" maybe shouldn't be magical but the bolt should
23:15:24 <doy> the bolt is a breath attack
23:15:29 <doy> so simiar to shadow dragons
23:15:45 <|amethyst> the hunting cry is a breath attack too, without the attack :)
23:15:56 <Bloax> here's some fun trivia
23:16:05 <doy> yeah, i think anubis guards are fine, i didn't notice the breath part at first
23:16:23 <Bloax> how many levels of fighting or weapon skill (they're the same for the purpose) is 7 slaying equal to when it comes to accuracy
23:16:37 <Bloax> (if we talk from the average rolls of either)
23:16:46 <Bloax> try guessing
23:16:58 <_miek> 14
23:17:00 <doy> The ushabti shakes and rattles.
23:17:02 <doy> The vile air hits you!
23:17:19 <Bloax> _miek: close!
23:17:25 <PleasingFungus> ah ha
23:17:27 <PleasingFungus> here we go
23:17:28 <|amethyst> doy:  hm, so I guess not explicitly sound-based, unless you count the movement of air as sound
23:17:31 <PleasingFungus> !seen elliptic
23:17:31 <Sequell> I last saw elliptic at Tue Mar 31 04:12:11 2015 UTC (5m 20s ago) saying 'IMO the moth is natural, it just flaps around and gets in your face and enrages you :P' on ##crawl-dev.
23:17:43 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: does _mark_solid_squares() still need to be a thing, now that the dig spell is gone?
23:17:49 <PleasingFungus> I guess deep troll earth elementalists exist
23:17:51 <PleasingFungus> and lrd
23:17:53 <PleasingFungus> hm.
23:18:00 <|amethyst> and wands
23:18:00 <doy> the dig spell is gone?
23:18:02 <simmarine> yes
23:18:03 <Bloax> |amethyst: well the movement of air is exactly what noise is
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23:18:08 <|amethyst> doy:  player dig spell, yes
23:18:10 <doy> oh, the player dig spell
23:18:12 <doy> right
23:18:38 <PleasingFungus> monsters don't have spells. they just have abilities that are sometimes of a wizardly nature.
23:18:39 <_miek> does that include the cacodemon digging bolt?
23:18:41 <|amethyst> Bloax:  right, but usually you don't call it "sound" until it gets up a few Hz at least :)
23:18:44 <_miek> @??cacodemon
23:18:44 <Gretell> cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 82-111 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, lev, regen | Res: 06magic(160), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 1624 | Sp: b.energy (3d20) [06!sil], slow [06!sil], confuse [06!sil], malmutate [06!sil], dig [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: high.
23:18:54 <_miek> ah.. it would
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23:19:22 <doy> @??insubstatial wisp
23:19:22 <Gretell> unknown monster: "insubstatial wisp"
23:19:29 <doy> @??insubstantial wisp
23:19:30 <Gretell> insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 17-23 | AC/EV: 4/18 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 162 | Sp: blink [11!AM, 06!sil], static discharge [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.
23:19:30 <PleasingFungus> @??insubstantial wisp
23:19:30 <Gretell> insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 17-23 | AC/EV: 4/18 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 162 | Sp: blink [11!AM, 06!sil], static discharge [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.
23:19:32 <_miek> Bloax: so what was the answer?
23:19:34 <PleasingFungus> doy: (:
23:19:40 <doy> (:
23:19:40 <Bloax> _miek: 12
23:19:44 <Bloax> roughly
23:20:12 <_miek> right
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23:22:00 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: probably wands are enough of a dig source that it is still a good idea to have that
23:22:10 <Lightli> why do alligators exist
23:22:14 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "crocodiles"

23:22:14 <Lightli> %??crocodiles
23:22:16 <Cheibriados> crocodile (07t) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20), 12drown | XP: 105 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.

23:22:16 <Lightli> %??crocodile
23:22:21 <Lightli> @??alligator
23:22:21 <Gretell> alligator (12t) | Spd: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | HP: 57-90 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Dam: 30, 15 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 892 | Sp: swiftness [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.
23:22:32 <Bloax> to severely annoy you
23:22:49 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev
23:22:51 <Bloax> and make high-AC characters not laugh at swamp (which they still do)
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23:22:57 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: rip
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23:23:35 <Cheibriados> insubstantial wisp (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 7-18 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1206(blink self) | 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 137 | Sp: blink | Sz: tiny | Int: plant.

23:23:35 <Bloax> %0.10?insubstantial wisp
23:23:53 <Lightli> I thought you had thorn hunters for that
23:24:04 <Bloax> well yeah but they're not common as hell!!
23:24:18 <Bloax> and thorn hunters are awful for any character
23:24:24 <Bloax> @??thorn hunter
23:24:24 <Gretell> thorn hunter (16f) | Spd: 12 (swim: 120%) | HD: 15 | HP: 82-114 | AC/EV: 9/9 | Dam: 27, 23 | 03plant, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2120 | Sp: v.thorns (3d18) [11!AM, 06!sil], w.brambles [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
23:24:37 <doy> okay, so, gargoyles, molten gargoyles, phantasmal warriors, sirens, merfolk avatars
23:24:40 <doy> wizard or magical?
23:24:44 <Bloax> since they're HD 15 and are basically stone giants with infinite ammo
23:25:05 <PleasingFungus> yes, no, no, no, yes, no
23:25:07 <PleasingFungus> irrespectively
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23:26:29 <doy> d:
23:26:35 <gammafunk> d:??
23:27:49 <Bloax> d: is ground level
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23:32:53 <|amethyst> doy:  I think phantasmal warriors probably would be magical, not a spell
23:33:00 <|amethyst> doy:  they're not supposed to be casters
23:33:15 <doy> okay
23:33:29 <doy> i'm leaning toward wizard for sirens and avatars
23:34:19 <|amethyst> controversial!
23:34:54 <doy> shrug, makes sense to me(:
23:34:56 <|amethyst> hm... I guess the warrior blink being natural is also because that used to be a non-spell special ability
23:35:03 <doy> right
23:35:18 <doy> gargoyles could potentially also stay natural
23:35:26 <|amethyst> maybe it could be themed as "it didn't actually move, it was just closer than it looked.  phantasms"
23:35:34 <doy> heh
23:36:39 <doy> it seems weird for gargoyles to be intelligent and intentionally flinging rocks at you and have it be magical, (since most of the other magical stuff is low intelligence or unintentional)
23:36:47 <doy> but wizard doesn't feel right either
23:36:55 <doy> maybe they should stay natural for now
23:37:00 <doy> lump them in with dragons and crabs
23:38:21 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_
23:38:47 <Cheibriados> 03doy02 07* 0.17-a0-364-ge28675b: turn some weirdly natural spells into magical/wizard 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 20+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e28675bcc38f
23:39:16 <doy> other people can tweak things more if they have feelings
23:40:16 <minmay> why doesn't wizard feel right? player gargoyles cast stone arrow plenty
23:40:54 <minmay> ...ugh, molten gargoyle bolt of magma is natural too?
23:42:05 <PleasingFungus> !send doy very magical wizards
23:42:05 <Sequell> Sending very magical wizards to doy.
23:42:17 <PleasingFungus> I have some thoughts about ignite poison but idk who's still around/awake
23:42:19 <|amethyst> doy:  I think the gargoyle thing probably should go whichever way dragons go?
23:42:27 <doy> |amethyst: yeah, that's what i think too
23:42:30 <PleasingFungus> (not related to current conversation, just something I'm currently thinking about)
23:42:35 <|amethyst> doy:  particularly since war gargoyle and iron dragon share the same book :)
23:42:46 <doy> minmay: if they are just normal spells, they shouldn't get special messaging
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23:43:21 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: don't be ridiculous! dragons can't read books!
23:43:28 <doy> PleasingFungus: people have thoughts about ignite poison?
23:44:04 <|amethyst> I like ignite poison but it always is a "memorise before this branch, forget afterwards"
23:44:14 <|amethyst> s/like/like using/
23:44:37 <PleasingFungus> I was thinking about changing it to very specifically (1) burn poisoned enemies (turn the poison into fire, like the naga mystic version) and mayyybe (2) turn poison clouds into very short duration flame clouds (like it does now). also lower it a level, give it poison school, possibly lower it another level and/or remove tmut school
23:44:51 <PleasingFungus> so it's a poison synergy spell rather than an anti-naga spell or w/e
23:44:53 <PleasingFungus> anti-bee spell?
23:45:00 <doy> it is weird how gargoyles can throw stone arrows but player gargoyles can't
23:45:13 <PleasingFungus> are monster gargs still immune to a bunch of hexes
23:45:14 <doy> in contrast to naga vs player naga spit poison
23:45:22 <minmay> doy: it is also weird how monster gargoyles are nonliving and player gargoyles aren't
23:45:33 <minmay> (for all practical purposes)
23:45:35 <PleasingFungus> player gargoyles are nonliving sometimes
23:45:41 <chequers> are one-two spell combos like that too complicated to use?
23:46:00 <PleasingFungus> chequers: that's my concern, though you can also use it with stuff like blowguns & venom weapons
23:46:04 <minmay> for worshipping yred, not for anything else in gameplay that I can think of
23:46:06 <|amethyst> yeah, would have simplified lots of things if they were still "grotesks"
23:46:09 <PleasingFungus> chequers: the argument was that battlesphere exists
23:46:12 <PleasingFungus> wrt combo spells
23:46:15 <minmay> player gargoyles can still be confused, regenerate normally, be drained...
23:46:35 <doy> yeah, gargoyles are immune to hexes, in a very confusing way
23:46:35 <chequers> battlespheres can take aggro for you, which is giving you pseudo-space
23:46:45 <PleasingFungus> psuedo-space...
23:46:47 <minmay> they aren't immune to hexes
23:46:48 <doy> you still get "struggles to resist" if you fail the roll
23:46:48 <chequers> if poison spells slowed more -- like I can see meph + ignite being cool
23:46:48 <minmay> just confusion
23:46:51 <doy> oh
23:46:54 <doy> that's even weirder
23:47:06 <minmay> note: i have no idea why nonliving monsters are immune to confusion
23:47:07 <minmay> they just are
23:47:16 <doy> since when has that been a thing?
23:47:17 <|amethyst> I think that's supposed to be "no mind to affect"
23:47:21 <minmay> since forever
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23:47:27 <|amethyst> except it doesn't actually use holiness
23:47:30 <|amethyst> err
23:47:31 <doy> i don't think that's true
23:47:35 <|amethyst> doesn't actually use intelligence
23:47:50 <doy> hmmm
23:48:02 <minmay> would have kind of made sense before roxanne, player gargoyles, abyss monsters, etc. i guess
23:48:44 <PleasingFungus> chequers: my other vague concerns were (1) it's yet another los-wide poison spell (the third, I think?) and (2) it might be OP with OTR (???)
23:48:51 <PleasingFungus> 2 is pretty unlikely, admittedly
23:49:01 <doy> skeletal warriors are affected by confusion, for instance
23:49:01 <minmay> given that jellies and other mindless monsters could always be confused...
23:49:15 <|amethyst> doy:  yeah, as are zombies even
23:49:38 <doy> yeah
23:49:39 <minmay> 2 isn't true
23:49:43 <|amethyst> doy:  I didn't say it was well-thought-out, but that's still my guess as to why it exists
23:49:47 <|amethyst> "can't confuse a robot"
23:50:06 <minmay> were robots even nonliving
23:50:10 <doy> i don't see any reason that gargoyles should be confuse-immune if zombies and skeletal warriors aren't
23:50:16 <|amethyst> @??iron golem
23:50:16 <Gretell> iron golem (108) | Spd: 7 | HD: 15 | HP: 121-148 | AC/EV: 15/3 | Dam: 35 | 11non-living, 10doors | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 805 | Sz: Large | Int: plant.
23:50:52 <|amethyst> (of course, those are just straight immune, because D&D)
23:50:53 <doy> PleasingFungus: isn't that how ignite poison used to work?
23:50:57 <PleasingFungus> minmay: aren't electric golems what robots used to be?
23:51:14 <PleasingFungus> doy: ?
23:51:38 <doy> PleasingFungus: burning poisoned enemies
23:51:59 <doy> |amethyst: yeah, magic immune monsters are a whole different (and also confusing) thing
23:52:01 <PleasingFungus> I'm more interested in what it doesn't do
23:52:10 <PleasingFungus> like burning poisonous chunk enemies
23:52:18 <PleasingFungus> or potions of poison on the ground
23:52:23 <|amethyst> doy:  fortunately there are fewer of those now!
23:52:26 <PleasingFungus> (or venom ammo? does that still exist?)
23:52:36 <|amethyst> %git 2d13b8e9
23:52:37 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.16-a0-4002-g2d13b8e: Remove magic immunity from some monsters 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 20+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d13b8e932a8
23:52:37 -!- Kittykai_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
23:52:39 <PleasingFungus> also, fun fact: ignite poison used to be level 7
23:53:04 <doy> haha
23:54:45 <minmay> controlled blink used to be level 4
23:54:55 <PleasingFungus> and death channel was 9, right?
23:55:54 <doy> yup
23:58:02 <PleasingFungus> I can't see any evidence that ignite poison used to burn poisoned monsters; it used to burn the *caster*, if they were poisoned...
23:58:19 <doy> maybe that's what i'm thinking of, shrug
23:58:38 <PleasingFungus> anyway, I'll hack up some kind of implementation and see how well it works in practice
23:58:58 <PleasingFungus> shouldn't be too hard, mostly a bunch of -s
23:59:13 <chequers> !lg * t vm
23:59:13 <Sequell> 3170. Sar the Slayer (L27 HaVM of Kikubaaqudgha), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2015-03-29 19:29:12, with 1427230 points after 114639 turns and 5:21:16.
23:59:18 <chequers> !lg * t fe
23:59:19 <Sequell> fe is ambiguous: may be species or class. Use fe-- (Felid) or --fe (Fire Elementalist) to disambiguate
23:59:22 <chequers> !lg * t --fe
23:59:23 <Sequell> 4343. Inchmeat the Firebug (L2 DsFE), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2015-03-29 19:50:01, with 26 points after 1302 turns and 0:04:29.
23:59:33 <chequers> vm is much less unpopular than i thought
23:59:35 <|amethyst> yeah, I think it did
23:59:43 <|amethyst> %git a639fc9f
23:59:43 <Cheibriados> 07greensnark02 * 0.2-a0-428-ga639fc9: Ignite poison should wake affected monsters (Juha). 10(8 years ago, 1 file, 4+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a639fc9fa82e