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00:06:27 <travis-ci> The build was broken. (master - 801983f #1806 : Neil Moore): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/51331342
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00:10:49 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4047-g6e7a739 (34)
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00:42:00 <travis-ci> The build has errored. (master - 6e7a739 #1807 : Neil Moore): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/51332742
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02:21:49 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4047-g6e7a739 (34)
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02:26:43 <n1k> great job on the slime tiles changes. The new acid floor tiles look cool
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07:04:03 <kvaak> |amethyst: challenge accepted
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07:04:15 <kvaak> hm, I wonder if geh has lava worms
07:07:10 <kvaak> apparently not, darn
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07:09:42 <kvaak> zigs probably can't get them either :/
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07:23:59 <kvaak> oh, actually there's an easier way
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08:02:05 <magicpoints> Why is !lignification blocked while standing in a cloud
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08:03:38 <|amethyst> magicpoints:  as a side effect of not letting random poly turn you into a tree in a cloud
08:03:39 <Sequell> |amethyst: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:03:43 <wheals> magicpoints: i think that was thought preferable to "Are you sure  you want do die?"
08:03:57 <wheals> s/do/to
08:04:53 <magicpoints> In this case I had rC and wanted the AC versus an ice statue :p
08:07:30 <magicpoints> Well at least I know more about it now
08:09:49 <|amethyst> I do agree that preventing intentional treeforming in a cloud is a little over the top
08:10:29 <elliptic> so my current game failed to generate a vaults entrance... there was a mimic on D:13 and no vault on D:14
08:10:54 <wheals> hm
08:11:01 <wheals> who wants to remove pan for the sixth time?
08:11:10 <elliptic> can we remove mimics first
08:11:42 <wheals> :/ at the BR
08:12:01 <elliptic> (also removing pan for the sixth time sounds good)
08:12:23 <wheals> oh i think i see
08:12:46 <wheals> i made the elliptic one_chance_in(FEATURE_MIMIC_CHANCE) apply to branch entrances :(
08:12:50 <wheals> er
08:13:07 <wheals> i hate webchat
08:13:10 <wheals> so much
08:13:14 <|amethyst> Hm... perhaps when we're in feature freeze, the bar for a refactoring commit should be somewhat higher than "I can't see anything obvious that could go wrong" :)
08:13:50 <wheals> if we'd branched already this wouldn't be quite so bad :P
08:15:19 <|amethyst> wheals:  so change that into   if (feat_is_branch_entrance(feat) && level_id::current() == brentry[get_branch_at(pos)]) continue;   if (one_chance_in(FEATURE_MIMIC_CHANCE)) ...   ?
08:15:43 <wheals> no, that might lead to two non-mimic branch entrances
08:16:20 <|amethyst> oh
08:16:39 <|amethyst> and the wrong-level things should always be mimics I guess
08:16:48 <wheals> yeah, they're speciall placed for it
08:16:58 <|amethyst> you're allowed to have a mimic for a branch on the same floor as the real entrance?
08:17:11 <wheals> don't think so, no
08:17:39 <|amethyst> so   if (feat_is_branch_entrance(feat) ? level_id::current() != brentry : one_chance_int(...))  ?
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08:18:09 <elliptic> yeah
08:18:30 <elliptic> that looks like the correct logic to me
08:19:04 <wheals> there still might be problems with _fixup_branch_stairs() coming before _place_feature_mimics now though
08:19:15 <wheals> so maybe just revert the whole thing for now?
08:20:31 <|amethyst> hm
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08:23:04 <|amethyst> wheals:  if so maybe go ahead and push the fixed versions of those two (three?) commits to a branch
08:23:14 <|amethyst> wheals:  so they won't be forgotten for 0.17
08:23:42 <wheals> i suspect the reordering may have caused the travis failure last night, even
08:23:51 <wheals> ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 725: Exit enter_hell[63] didn't get generated.
08:24:06 <|amethyst> hm, which version was that
08:24:16 <wheals> %git 801983f
08:24:16 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.16-a0-4046-g801983f: Don't delete wrong items from shopping list page two (hy-on-github) 10(9 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=801983f2f61b
08:24:24 <wheals> after your pan fix
08:24:29 <|amethyst> oh, after it
08:24:30 <|amethyst> hm
08:26:04 <wheals> just revert everything i did yesterday, except (maybe) the shop hack one :)
08:32:36 <wheals> but maybe that one breaks stuff too, maybe it's used for an entirely different hack
08:33:40 <|amethyst> hm
08:34:23 <|amethyst> possibly temp items, but I think it's fine
08:35:35 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4048-g245e628: Temporarily revert some mimic stuff (elliptic, wheals) 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 39+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=245e628b28ed
08:35:37 <|amethyst> wheals:  apologies for my sarcasm, not intending to discourage you
08:36:27 <|amethyst> wheals:  as I noted in both commit messages, those changes look good in general once the bugs are ironed out
08:36:47 <|amethyst> just that a week or two probably isn't enough time to do so
08:37:05 <|amethyst> Grunt has broken dungeon generation in much worse ways than you :)
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08:42:58 <|amethyst> elliptic:  if this game still going?
08:43:03 <|amethyst> elliptic:  *is
08:43:34 <|amethyst> elliptic:  and do you know how to do the necessary save-editing?
08:49:12 <elliptic> |amethyst: it is, and no... iirc there are some command-line tools for this?
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08:50:15 <|amethyst> !learn add save_editing To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.   2. Play temp, move to the spot with xm (without spending any turns)  3. &( to create the feature, then save.  4. crawl -edit-save temp.cs -get D:14 d14.chunk   4. crawl -edit-save fixed.cs -put D:14 d14.chunk   5. copy fixed.cs and load the copy to verify that the feature is th
08:50:15 <Sequell> Entry text exceeds the maximum length of 375
08:50:31 <|amethyst> !learn add save_editing To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
08:50:32 <Sequell> save editing[1/1]: To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
08:50:55 <|amethyst> !learn add save_editing 2. Play temp.cs, move to the appropriate spot with xm (without spending any turns)  3. &( to create the feature, then save.
08:50:56 <Sequell> save editing[2/2]: 2. Play temp.cs, move to the appropriate spot with xm (without spending any turns)  3. &( to create the feature, then save.
08:51:15 <|amethyst> !learn add save_editing 4. crawl -edit-save temp.cs -get D:14 d14.chunk   4. crawl -edit-save fixed.cs -put D:14 d14.chunk   5. copy fixed.cs and load the copy to verify that the feature is there and you aren't in wizmode.  6. copy fixed.cs back to the server.
08:51:16 <Sequell> save editing[3/3]: 4. crawl -edit-save temp.cs -get D:14 d14.chunk   4. crawl -edit-save fixed.cs -put D:14 d14.chunk   5. copy fixed.cs and load the copy to verify that the feature is there and you aren't in wizmode.  6. copy fixed.cs back to the server.
08:51:46 <|amethyst> !readall save editing
08:51:55 <|amethyst> !readall save_editing
08:51:56 <Sequell> To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed. / 2. Play temp.cs, move to the appropriate spot with xm (without spending any turns)  3. &( to create the feature, then save. / 4. crawl -edit-save temp.cs -get D:14 d14.chunk   4. crawl -edit-save fixed.cs -put D:14 d14.chunk   5. copy fixed.cs ...
08:52:06 <|amethyst> oh
08:52:19 <elliptic> |amethyst: thanks, I guess I'll try doing that to my own save and then give the edited save to you to put back on CSZO?
08:52:28 <|amethyst> !learn edit save_editing[2] s/temp.cs,/temp.cs, enter wizmode, and/
08:52:29 <Sequell> save editing[2/3]: 2. Play temp.cs, enter wizmode, and move to the appropriate spot with xm (without spending any turns)  3. &( to create the feature, then save.
08:52:40 <|amethyst> elliptic:  yeah
08:52:50 <|amethyst> I can do it instead, but it's good practice :)
08:53:04 <elliptic> also, we should probably rebuild the servers that we can to reduce the number of complaints of this sort that we get
08:53:11 <elliptic> since 1/100 chance for each branch is pretty high
08:53:15 <|amethyst> &versions
08:53:58 <Sequell> CAO: 0.16-a0-4025-gba9e1d6, CBRO: 0.16-a0-4047-g6e7a739, CDO: 0.16-a0-4024-g0ecf4ac, CKR: 0.16-a0-3723-g1e20147, CLAN: 0.16-a0-4038-ge07a62f, CPO: 0.16-a0-4047-g6e7a739, CSZO: 0.16-a0-4047-g6e7a739, CXC: 0.16-a0-4044-gd6c5e7b, LLD: 0.16-a0-3842-geca72fe
08:54:32 <elliptic> |amethyst: about the instructions, is it important that the user save on the level to be changed, or can you just travel to that level in step 2?
08:54:40 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4048-g245e628 (34)
08:54:43 <|amethyst> elliptic:  hm
08:54:55 <|amethyst> elliptic:  in most cases that would work (travel back afterwards probably)
08:55:03 <|amethyst> elliptic:  but that could cause problems if you have followers maybe?
08:55:37 <|amethyst> travel with &~ of course
08:56:00 <elliptic> ah
08:56:14 <elliptic> since you might duplicate the followers I guess
08:56:32 <|amethyst> yeah
08:56:56 <|amethyst> not just followers
08:57:09 <|amethyst> also if a monster fell through a shaft on D:13 since the last time you were on D:14
08:57:34 <elliptic> I guess the refactoring was 4032, so CBRO CLAN CPO CSZO CXC are the affected servers
08:57:41 <|amethyst> that monster could be duplicated, since we're only copying D:14 and not the (now emptied) transit-to-D:14 list
08:57:50 <elliptic> right
08:58:12 <elliptic> ??rebuild
08:58:12 <Sequell> rebuild[1/2]: https://dobrazupa.org/rebuild/ http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rebuild/ http://crawl.lantea.net/rebuild/ http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/rebuild/ http://crawl.xtahua.com/rebuild/ Bug Grunt, |amethyst, or Nap Kin for CDO. Use your powers wisely.
08:58:20 <|amethyst> ??rebuild[2]
08:58:21 <Sequell> rebuild[2/2]: Trunk update start times in UTC (second number during summer time):  CSZO: 0600/0500; CAO: 1700; CDO: 0600/0500; CLAN: 2300/2200; CBRO: 0800/0700; CXC: 0500/0400; CPO: every 15 minutes
08:58:25 <|amethyst> not sure about CPO
08:58:26 <|amethyst> oh
08:58:29 <|amethyst> every 15 minutes
08:58:33 <|amethyst> well then :)
08:58:44 <|amethyst> rebuilding the other four now
08:58:57 <elliptic> cool
08:59:20 <|amethyst> well, three of them, cszo finished a while back
09:02:14 <elliptic> oh uh
09:02:26 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.16-a0-4048-g245e628 (34)
09:02:31 <elliptic> it looks like crawl gave me a vaults entrance by itself when I traveled back to D:13
09:02:46 <|amethyst> ha
09:02:57 <elliptic> not in the intended location but I'll take it
09:03:15 <|amethyst> so no save editing needed probably?
09:03:23 <|amethyst> just do that for real on CSZO
09:03:34 <elliptic> I mean I traveled back on CSZO :)
09:03:37 <|amethyst> ah :)
09:04:10 <wheals> interesting, i had no idea about such an autorecovery feature
09:04:41 <elliptic> I vaguely remember such a thing existing, but I didn't know it actually handled this sort of situation
09:04:48 <wheals> |amethyst: i noticed into another possible problem: feature mimics probably should be placed before connectivity checking
09:05:03 <wheals> s/ into // # ugh webchat
09:05:17 <|amethyst> wheals:  hm, maybe
09:05:38 <wheals> not a problem after your revert, though
09:05:39 <|amethyst> or maybe not
09:06:13 <|amethyst> does it place mimics, or just turn existing features into mimics?  And does being a mimic change passability?
09:07:14 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I'm trying to find the code that does that
09:07:22 <wheals> it turns them into ones, which is a problem for zone-checking
09:07:23 <magicpoints> Wasn't that autorecovery created for dungeon-split?
09:07:27 <wheals> if you turn the only hatch out into a mimic...
09:07:43 <|amethyst> wheals:  oh, that kind of connectivity
09:07:58 <|amethyst> wheals:  I was thinking intra-level (passability of tiles)
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09:08:20 <wheals> yeah, a mimic will never make things less passable inside a level, but between levels it might
09:08:23 <|amethyst> wheals:  Yeah, that could be a problem
09:09:32 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4048-g245e628 (34)
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09:09:59 <|amethyst> ah, _ensure_entry
09:10:10 <|amethyst> I was looking in dbg-scan.cc but it's in tags.cc
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09:11:36 <|amethyst> only happens for entrances to Vaults, Zot, Vestibule, Hell branches, Pan, and Abyss
09:11:46 <wheals> looks like that function will cause a crash if we add a branch entrance at the top of a branch and someone loads an old
09:11:47 <wheals> game
09:11:52 <|amethyst> !source _add_missing_branches
09:11:52 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/tags.cc;hb=HEAD#l1058
09:12:18 <wheals> oh, it's opt-in
09:12:28 <|amethyst> hm
09:12:37 <|amethyst> wonder if that means it doesn't work for the hell branch entries
09:12:54 <|amethyst> since exit_hell is not stone_stairs_up_i
09:13:30 <wheals> look at _a_m_b again :)
09:13:46 <|amethyst> oh
09:14:02 <|amethyst> not actually calling _ensure_entry, just fixing the markers
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09:14:53 <wheals> and turning the arches in old games into entrances  (since they can't blow the horn)
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09:18:33 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4049-gf10dcfe: Hush a sign warning. 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f10dcfe5548b
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09:28:41 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-4048-g245e628 (34)
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09:35:40 <|amethyst> !learn add save_editing[1] s/14./14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters./
09:35:41 <Sequell> save editing[1/4]: s/14./14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters./
09:35:46 <|amethyst> doh
09:35:51 <|amethyst> !learn del save_editing[1]
09:35:52 <Sequell> Deleted save editing[1/4]: s/14./14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters./
09:35:55 <|amethyst> !learn edit save_editing[1] s/14./14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters./
09:35:56 <Sequell> save editing[1/3]: To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters.:  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
09:36:02 <|amethyst> gah
09:36:37 <|amethyst> !learn edit save_editing[1] s/;.*\.:/):/
09:36:38 <Sequell> save editing[1/3]: To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
09:36:50 <|amethyst> !learn edit save_editing[1] s/on D:14./on D:14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters./
09:36:51 <Sequell> save editing[1/3]: To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14; doing this later in wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
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09:37:07 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - 245e628 #1808 : Neil Moore): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/51380032
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09:38:22 <|amethyst> !learn edit save_editing[1] s/doing this later in/going there using/
09:38:22 <Sequell> save editing[1/3]: To fix a save with a missing stair (which should be on, say, D:14):  0. Have the user save on D:14; going there using wizmode could duplicate followers or transiting monsters.  1. Make three copies of the save: orig, temp, fixed.
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10:18:03 <travis-ci> The build passed. (master - f10dcfe #1809 : Neil Moore): http://travis-ci.org/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/builds/51386584
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10:57:20 <|amethyst> wheals:  thanks for mentioning the <del> problem yesterday... is that on mantis anywhere?
10:57:34 <wheals> not that i know of
10:57:54 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4050-g170539f: Fix <Del> in the line reader (wheals) 10(25 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=170539fcd138
10:59:15 <|amethyst> simplest fix for the line-wrapping thing would be to not do word-wrapping there
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11:02:52 <|amethyst> ugh... lots of this code has problems with double-width chars too
11:03:02 <|amethyst> oh, no
11:03:14 <|amethyst> only some of it does
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11:04:09 <mauris> hmm this "comes into view again" patch:
11:04:40 <mauris> am i alone in sort of preferring the phrasing "comes back into view" and thinking the other thing sounds a bit awkward?
11:07:51 <|amethyst> it's a little more formal than "comes back" but I don't think it's awkward
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11:24:02 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-4050-g170539f (34)
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11:49:06 <Cheibriados> Tukima's dance does not show chance of success 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9496 by Dharmy
11:49:31 <|amethyst> FR: invertebrates can skeletonise but are called "husks" instead of "skeletons"
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11:54:03 <gammafunk> hrm
11:54:12 <gammafunk> describe-spells.cc: In function 'void _monster_spellbooks(const monster_info&, mon_spell_slot_flags,
11:54:12 <gammafunk> spellset&)':
11:54:13 <gammafunk> describe-spells.cc:138:68: warning: ISO C++11 does not support the 'I' printf flag [-Wformat=]
11:54:16 <gammafunk> set_name.c_str(), i+1);
11:54:31 <gammafunk> !function _monster_spellbooks
11:54:32 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/describe-spells.cc;hb=HEAD#l115
11:54:59 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  yeah, that started (similar about %z on Unix) when we turned on -pedantic I believe
11:55:24 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  since there is no ISO C++ format string for a size_t
11:55:30 <|amethyst> %z is C11
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11:55:41 <|amethyst> (C99 probably, not sure)
11:56:06 <|amethyst> we might not decide which to use based on the right criteria though
11:56:08 <gammafunk> oh the string concatenation confused me
11:56:20 <PleasingFungus> yo, if someone wants to fix 9496, it's insanely trivial
11:56:26 <gammafunk> I didn't realize it would turn "str1" "str2" into "str1str2"
11:56:36 <gammafunk> it being C++
11:56:47 <PleasingFungus> SPELL_TUKIMAS_DANCE just needs SPFLAG_MR_CHECK (in spl-data.h)
11:56:54 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  right now we use #if defined(TARGET_COMPILER_VC) || defined(TARGET_COMPILER_MINGW)
11:56:54 <PleasingFungus> if not I'll do it when I get back
11:57:05 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  already on it :)
11:57:07 <gammafunk> |amethyst: ah, ok, I'm compiling under mingw
11:57:09 <PleasingFungus> nice
11:57:15 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  but really it depends on the libc, not the compiler :(
11:57:26 <PleasingFungus> also I feel super bad about james corden
11:57:36 <PleasingFungus> he thinks we're working on translations :(
11:57:40 <gammafunk> that's the guy asking about chinese crawl?
11:57:41 <PleasingFungus> ya
11:57:47 <PleasingFungus> I should send another email clarifying
11:57:50 <PleasingFungus> but I feel bad
11:57:54 <gammafunk> MisleadingFungus
11:58:07 <PleasingFungus> I thought I was clear!
11:58:09 <|amethyst> some people are thinking about the topic, but
11:58:09 <PleasingFungus> I blame translation issues.
11:58:20 <PleasingFungus> (ironically?)
11:58:38 <PleasingFungus> brb
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11:58:54 <gammafunk> |amethyst: well, it sounds like mingw should at least be using z, if I'm understanding you correctly
11:59:07 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  I thought it used MSVCRT
11:59:08 <gammafunk> since we have only one libc that even works there
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11:59:26 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  %Iu is the MSVC way
11:59:42 <gammafunk> |amethyst: maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this is with GCC
11:59:58 <gammafunk> i.e. I'm using msys with win-builds gcc
12:00:04 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  right, but printf, sprintf, etc is a function
12:00:19 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  and one from the C runtime at that
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12:00:34 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  so it's likely it comes from whichever C runtime you're using, not the compiler
12:00:51 <gammafunk> oh, I assumed it was a different C runtime on this system as well
12:01:01 <|amethyst> that's the thing I'm not sure of
12:01:25 <|amethyst> AIUI cygwin has its own but mingw uses the Windows native one
12:01:32 <gammafunk> how do I check which libc I'm using?
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12:01:55 <|amethyst> however you check what DLLs the app is linked with
12:01:59 <|amethyst> I'm not a windows dev
12:02:04 <|amethyst> I haven't done this since 3.11
12:02:09 <gammafunk> 1learn add
12:02:28 <|amethyst> hm
12:02:40 <|amethyst> actually I guess you'd need to know about sprintf specifically
12:02:46 <gammafunk> "ah, (It does depend on a number of DLLs provided by Microsoft themselves, as components of the operating system; most notable among these is MSVCRT.DLL, the Microsoft C runtime library"
12:02:51 <gammafunk> re mingw
12:02:56 <|amethyst> might be able to wrangle that information out of objdump or nm
12:03:13 <|amethyst> Yeah, so in general stuff would come from there
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12:03:27 <|amethyst> but sometimes compilers include their own version of some functions
12:03:31 <gammafunk> so it could be giving this warning, but the warning is actually wrong, since said function actually does support I
12:03:44 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  well, it's -pedantic
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12:03:59 <wheals> is there a way to turn off -wformat just for specific specifiers?
12:04:01 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  which means 'tell me about things that aren't strictly standards-conforming'
12:04:10 <gammafunk> ok perhaps "wrong" is the incorrect word there, but "not applicable"
12:04:27 <|amethyst> wheals:   you can turn it off in a specific chunk of code with #pragmas
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12:04:40 <|amethyst> wheals:  but you'd have to wrap every use
12:05:23 <wheals> oh, i was hoping that since it said [-wformat=] you could do something like [-wnoformat=z]
12:07:00 <|amethyst> I don't see one about that
12:07:19 <|amethyst> there are a few -Wformat-xyz  but nothing that seems applicable
12:08:46 <|amethyst> ahhh
12:08:52 <|amethyst> -Wno-pedantic-ms-format  !!
12:09:12 <gammafunk> yeah
12:09:14 <|amethyst> and it goes back to 4.7
12:09:16 <gammafunk> DLL Name: msvcrt.dll vma:  Hint/Ord Member-Name Bound-To e04cca     55  __dllonexit e04cd8     56  __doserrno e04ce6     58  __getmainargs
12:09:21 <gammafunk> from objdump
12:09:44 <gammafunk> doesn't say where that actually is, of course
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12:10:38 <gammafunk> oh, yeah, maybe we could add that -Wno-pedantic-ms-format option to the CC args if that's applicable
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12:18:48 <|amethyst> doesn't help with getting the same warnings about %zu on some Linux g++s
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12:22:33 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4051-g5bde15b: Show MR chance for Tukima's (PF, #9496) 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5bde15b1771d
12:22:33 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4052-gb20b1ff: Don't warn about %Iu in mingw (gammafunk) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b20b1ff792f4
12:22:55 <gammafunk> I....resolved....a severe....lich form bug....!!!
12:23:13 <gammafunk> tested in windows tiles just to be sure, but it had been fixed, as PF suspected
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12:24:31 <wheals> |amethyst: why does that have to be so complicated?
12:25:25 <wheals> oh i see, so you don't give a compiler a flag it doesn't understand
12:25:43 <wheals> there should be a flag to make them not complain if you give them one they don't understand :P
12:26:22 <|amethyst> wheals:  in particular this one is supported by gcc but not clang
12:26:39 <gammafunk> wow...we kind of need something like cmake or autoconf, don't we
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12:28:14 <gammafunk> I wonder how many larger projects have a totally custom makefile with no autoconf/cmake build system like this
12:28:24 <gammafunk> probably more than one might first guess
12:30:24 <Bloax> a better question is how many large projects that are still very active have that
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12:32:50 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  ITYM two custom build systems
12:32:53 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  MSVC/
12:32:56 <gammafunk> hehe
12:32:57 <johnny0> gammafunk: |amethyst: i'll take a look at those warnings -- they very well may be deserved.  mingw-w64 provides a printf implementation which does not use the MS-specifics, and crawl specifically enables using them over the MS ones.
12:33:11 <|amethyst> johnny0:  ah
12:33:49 <gammafunk> Bloax: tons and tons of them do, which you would know if you had ever even downloaded and compiled them once
12:33:54 <|amethyst> johnny0:  if that's always the case, or you can reliably detect it at build time, we can deal with that in config.h
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12:34:14 <|amethyst> johnny0:  well, if it's always the case with mingw (and not just -w64)
12:34:31 <|amethyst> johnny0:  (including cross-compilation)
12:34:50 <gammafunk> johnny0: oh that's good to know, yeah
12:34:53 <|amethyst> if that's the case there's no need to even do config.h
12:35:19 <|amethyst> !source AppHdr.h:453
12:35:20 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/AppHdr.h;hb=HEAD#l453
12:35:25 <|amethyst> that's the relevant line
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12:35:38 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  what's the lich form bug?
12:35:56 <gammafunk> I just resolved it; it was a bug where you insert a force_more_message to catch untransform
12:36:01 <gammafunk> and you get undead resists
12:36:21 <|amethyst> ah
12:36:28 <gammafunk> I tested it in windows tiles by adding a message, closing the window before hitting enter, and then there are no resists
12:36:30 <|amethyst> as PF said,
12:36:51 <|amethyst> is_undead
12:36:55 <gammafunk> |amethyst: that infinite acquirement bug, is it still a thing?
12:37:02 <|amethyst> probably, yes
12:37:12 <gammafunk> maybe I should look at that
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12:37:51 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  see kb's comment at 6375
12:38:09 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  there was some technical issue related to ncurses restarting syscalls
12:38:15 <gammafunk> ah ok
12:39:09 <johnny0> |amethyst: iirc there were some problems with ancient mingw distributions wrt __USE_MINGW_ANSI_STDIO when crawl supported gcc 4.1+, but they shouldn't be an issue now that crawl requires c++11
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12:41:23 <|amethyst> johnny0:  what about 32-bit?
12:41:47 <|amethyst> johnny0:  the comment in AppHdr.h also mentions mingw-w64 specifically
12:41:50 <johnny0> mingw-w64 provides a 32-bit compiler
12:41:56 <|amethyst> ah
12:42:06 <|amethyst> but
12:42:18 <|amethyst> I don't think our official windows builds use that
12:42:39 <|amethyst> since they're cross-compiled
12:42:57 <johnny0> i'm pretty sure they do now (i think nap kin upgraded his distribution a while back when debian finally upgraded the ancient mingw stuff)
12:43:00 <|amethyst> aha
12:43:17 <johnny0> I have a very similar setup to his
12:43:27 <johnny0> i think i just have debian testing instead of debian stable + backports
12:43:33 <|amethyst> Is __MINGW_PRINTF_FORMAT being set in this case?
12:43:56 <|amethyst> nm
12:43:59 <|amethyst> that's something else
12:46:26 <|amethyst> so that sounds like a plan then
12:46:45 <|amethyst> have %Iu happen only for MSVC
12:46:58 <|amethyst> and revert the -Wno-pedantic-ms-format
12:47:56 <|amethyst> would be nice if we could tell for sure whether __USE_MINGW_ANSI_STDIO worked but this is good enough
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12:57:17 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: :)
12:57:23 <PleasingFungus> re 7284
12:57:40 <gammafunk> is that your best....lich smiley?!
12:58:25 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4053-g5391420: Use %zu, not %Iu, when using mingw's (s)printf (johnny0) 10(10 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5391420c79ab
12:58:28 <gammafunk> >:D
12:58:28 <PleasingFungus> dang...
12:58:28 <|amethyst> ☠
12:58:28 <gammafunk> nice
12:58:28 <PleasingFungus> !
12:58:28 <PleasingFungus> next, to remove melded and fishtail.
12:58:28 <PleasingFungus> fucking fishtail.
12:58:32 <|amethyst> roly-poly fishtails
12:59:01 <PleasingFungus> I am angry about merfolk!
12:59:14 <ontoclasm> rip
12:59:15 <Sequell> ontoclasm: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
12:59:19 <ontoclasm> !messages
12:59:20 <Sequell> (1/2) |amethyst said (2d 5h 6m 25s ago): Cthulhu_55 is interested in contributing tiles, see the bottom of https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=596
12:59:29 <ontoclasm> !messages
12:59:30 <Sequell> (1/1) |amethyst said (17h 47m 37s ago): need a corpse tile for lava snake, because they can still be tornadoed onto land... default would probably be fine, I'm just not sure about details of where to add it in dc-corpse.txt
12:59:39 <|amethyst> that one's taken care of
12:59:42 <ontoclasm> okay
12:59:44 <|amethyst> the tile
13:00:33 <PleasingFungus> cthulu_55 looks competent, I think (not an expert sprite-evaluator). their example of previous work is a little larger than what we accept, but not grossly so
13:00:43 <PleasingFungus> so they should probably be able to adjust
13:01:11 <|amethyst> I haven't seen the originals those are based on
13:01:17 <ontoclasm> well, looks like it was partly frankensteined so we'll see what zhe makes
13:01:29 <PleasingFungus> frankensteined is a good term.
13:01:36 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: will you offer them suggestions?
13:01:42 <PleasingFungus> wrt sprites needing replacement
13:02:04 <PleasingFungus> people keep bitching about various player doll tiles (e.g. player draconian), so maybe that would be reasonable?
13:03:37 <gammafunk> hrm, I'm not sure what this means: "Close the game by pushing the ctrl+s button with the mouse (tiles) and went to sleep"
13:03:47 <gammafunk> ctrl+s I understand, but with the mouse?
13:03:58 <|amethyst> clicked on the save-game icon
13:04:02 <gammafunk> ah
13:04:08 <|amethyst> which probably shows ctrl-s in the popup
13:04:36 <gammafunk> where is this icon...
13:05:20 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: yeah, i pointed him at my list-of-tiles thread
13:05:33 <ontoclasm> ...did i ever commit that bennu
13:05:36 <|amethyst> under system commands (the gold "i" in a box), Save and exit looks like a dungeon door
13:05:44 <gammafunk> ok ty
13:05:47 <|amethyst> s/door/entrance/
13:06:15 <gammafunk> hrm, well using that does not give me a corrupted save, like it did for Isabel
13:06:29 <PleasingFungus> %git :/ennu
13:06:30 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.16-a0-3810-g10450fb: Give bennu a plain attack instead of sticky flame brand 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=10450fb3d5f5
13:06:50 <PleasingFungus> searching around, looks like no?
13:07:06 <gammafunk> maybe I can see which block got truncated
13:07:15 <PleasingFungus> yeah, still using old phoenix tile
13:07:26 <|amethyst> @??bennu
13:07:26 <Gretell> bennu (08b) | Spd: 16 | HD: 14 | HP: 62-93 | AC/EV: 6/16 | Dam: 2708(holy), 1813(drain), 18 | evil, see invisible, fly, regen | Res: 06magic(140), 04fire+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++ | Vul: 12drown, 08holy | XP: 1286 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
13:07:50 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: you can't end a [url] tag with a [/i]
13:08:30 <PleasingFungus> also can't believe you disapprove of my shard shrike tile... I put so many minutes of work into it!
13:08:34 <PleasingFungus> maybe five, ten minutes, even
13:08:50 <PleasingFungus> ...wait, spriggan air mages fly?
13:08:53 <Cheibriados> spriggan air mage (11i) | Spd: 10 (move: 60%) | HD: 14 | HP: 40-62 | AC/EV: 1/22 | Dam: 16 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(140), 10elec++ | XP: 957 | Sp: airstrike (0-38), b.lightning (3d19), control winds, deflect missiles | Sz: little | Int: high.

13:08:53 <PleasingFungus> %??spriggan air mage
13:08:57 <gammafunk> yeah
13:08:59 <PleasingFungus> well, son of a bitch.
13:09:31 <gammafunk> they fly...they kill players that fly...
13:09:32 <ontoclasm> see
13:09:52 <|amethyst> could give them the flight spell and just make monsters with that spell have it up by default
13:10:23 <gammafunk> ah, this is from 2012
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13:10:47 <gammafunk> I wonder if I can still extract chunks from this save at least
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13:11:21 <|amethyst> should be able to get the chr chunk and run strings on it to see what version it was run with
13:11:45 <|amethyst> then you can git checkout that version
13:12:24 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: we could do that but idk that it adds anything interesting to the game
13:12:33 <PleasingFungus> vuln air mages over deep water for powerful instant kill tech!!!
13:13:00 <PleasingFungus> or purple breath/summoned qs, I guess (but they have dmsl and a million ev and if you have a qs dragon pal, just kill them already!)
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13:13:12 <gammafunk> |amethyst: ah, when I do that I get the same message she got: save file corrupted -- ...oh wait it's a bit different
13:13:16 <gammafunk> mine is empty block
13:13:24 <gammafunk> she got block truncated
13:13:51 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  oh, no gameplay reason
13:14:01 <PleasingFungus> heh
13:14:13 <PleasingFungus> just a fun technical... is it even really a challenge? a fun technical project, I guess
13:14:14 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  to satisfy the racial intrinsics purists :)
13:14:15 <PleasingFungus> sounds grunty
13:14:21 <gammafunk> well, that functionality does work in my testing
13:14:29 <PleasingFungus> fr: bring back insulation specifically for spriggan air mages
13:14:39 <PleasingFungus> take that, MARVIN
13:14:43 <gammafunk> I think I'll resolve this but note that Isabel can reopen the issue if said corruptions still occur
13:15:14 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  well, to be fair, the spell list is a bit flashier than "It is (several other words) to electricity"
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13:15:25 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  so more likely to be spotted
13:15:39 <gammafunk> oh it does say 0.11 in the report at least, but it doesn't matter
13:15:40 <|amethyst> so it might be an actual improvement
13:15:49 <PleasingFungus> ya I do think *that* would be an improvement on the old situation
13:15:54 <PleasingFungus> not sure if it's an improvement on the current situation
13:15:57 <PleasingFungus> kind of a toss-up
13:16:14 <PleasingFungus> I was going to say "it might make hangedman happy" and then I realized what I was saying
13:16:59 <|amethyst> traditionally the hanged man is smiling...
13:17:12 <|amethyst> ten of swords, not so much
13:17:31 <gammafunk> also likely: "it might make Grunt never use a joke command in irc again"
13:17:31 <PleasingFungus> more like the hangedman... reversed!!!
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13:17:36 <PleasingFungus> boom, brutal tarot-based jokes
13:17:48 <PleasingFungus> I'm in top form, today. Killing it!
13:18:01 <gammafunk> *crickets*
13:18:13 <PleasingFungus> Basically, I'm amazing, and everyone should appreciate taht.
13:18:16 <PleasingFungus> And by that, I mean me.
13:18:58 <|amethyst> what do you mean by "taht" though?
13:19:11 <PleasingFungus> It's a riddle, or possibly an enigma.
13:19:37 <|amethyst> with a warm nougaty centre
13:19:44 <PleasingFungus> I decided that, since I have no energy for productive crawl projects, I'm going to figure out how make_name() actually works.
13:19:51 <PleasingFungus> It's interesting.
13:19:58 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  oh, did you see the new monster feature?
13:20:12 <PleasingFungus> Oh, I saw you were talking about adding that functionality, but didn't realized you implemented it...
13:20:15 <|amethyst> @??-name
13:20:15 <Gretell> Tenunesk
13:20:16 <|amethyst> @??-name
13:20:17 <Gretell> Ylir
13:20:18 <|amethyst> @??-name
13:20:19 <Gretell> Shrebengu
13:20:21 <PleasingFungus> hold on, I need to unignore a bot
13:20:23 <PleasingFungus> remind me the bot
13:20:27 <|amethyst> Gretell
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13:20:34 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "-name"

13:20:34 <PleasingFungus> %??-name
13:20:37 <PleasingFungus> o
13:20:40 <PleasingFungus> @??-name
13:20:40 <Gretell> Twuic
13:20:43 <PleasingFungus> mm
13:20:46 <PleasingFungus> @??-name
13:20:46 <Gretell> Grurchoy
13:20:46 <|amethyst> I'll get chei moved to cszo (and updated) at some point
13:20:50 <PleasingFungus> ah, yeah, see that
13:20:58 <PleasingFungus> see how that name is longer than the other
13:21:16 <PleasingFungus> that's made significantly more likely because it includes the "rch" triple
13:21:37 <|amethyst> well
13:21:50 <|amethyst> I'd argue that for length purposes "rch" should count as two letters
13:22:08 <PleasingFungus> it counts as like -1 letter
13:22:11 <PleasingFungus> depending on how you think about it
13:22:12 <|amethyst> not for "I have a fixed buffer" length, but for "I don't want the name to be too long"
13:22:13 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: do you see this https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1817
13:22:17 <|amethyst> ah
13:22:23 <PleasingFungus> mostly the code iterates through and repeatedly chooses from a set of doubles and triples (and occasionally spaces and other weird shit), but whenever it chooses a triple, it increases the number of iterations it'll do by one
13:22:33 <PleasingFungus> oh no I misread it
13:22:37 <PleasingFungus> I forgot it also did i++
13:22:49 <gammafunk> heh, 0.6
13:23:10 <gammafunk> maybe I should just resolve that one as well
13:23:23 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: imo do, ya
13:23:29 <gammafunk> since I'm sure we'd have reports if os x users were getting screen flashes every cast
13:23:42 <PleasingFungus> so it's trying to keep len in sync with the actual length of the name to be generated, except it just gives up at the end.
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13:25:32 <PleasingFungus> anyway, 'len' can start from anywhere between 3-12 (9-18 for scroll names), but each iteration can generate 1-3 characters
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13:26:25 <PleasingFungus> not sure if there's a seed that will actually produce a 54-character long scroll name, but it's something that you could probably just run through - 2^32 isn't *that* large
13:26:30 <PleasingFungus> oh, actually, hold on...
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13:28:56 <PleasingFungus> ok, scrolls only actually have 2^16 possible names
13:29:17 <PleasingFungus> so yeah, that's totally possible to iterate over
13:30:32 <|amethyst> FR: every server has a different seed
13:31:06 <|amethyst> use (scroll seed) + 32 bits of mac address or something
13:31:14 <PleasingFungus> mm
13:32:09 <PleasingFungus> fun fact: at present, if someone were to change the value of the OBJ_SCROLLS enum (e.g. after a save compat bump), scroll name generation would completely change
13:32:46 <PleasingFungus> completely disjoint set of generated names. not sure if it'd be noticeable or not
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13:35:57 <|amethyst> considering that there are famous scroll names multiple people have seen
13:36:05 <|amethyst> poor THA GIAGGOSTUONO
13:36:10 <ontoclasm> i find it hilarious that people still don't understand gyre and gimble
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13:36:32 <PleasingFungus> that sounds worrying to me
13:36:33 <PleasingFungus> what do you mean?
13:37:04 <Bloax> ontoclasm: i find it not hilarious that stone still looks :(
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13:38:05 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: minmay keeps saying that g&g break the no-dual-wielding rule
13:38:10 <ontoclasm> and it's funnier every time
13:38:18 <PleasingFungus> o
13:38:23 <PleasingFungus> minmay sometimes jokes
13:38:25 <ontoclasm> Bloax: i rebuilt my computer and haven't set up git yet
13:38:33 <PleasingFungus> much like g&g, which is a joke (this is not a bad thing)
13:39:12 <PleasingFungus> I mean part of the funny thing about adding them is that it's an implemented will_never_implement (in a technical sense.) I don't think that means minvessa doesn't understand them, just that it's funny
13:39:24 <PleasingFungus> joke dissection
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13:44:53 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: i saw in backlog people already found a bunch of ways to get lava snake corpses, here's a new good one though
13:45:19 <MarvinPA> make temporary lava with Q next to real lava and lead the lava snake into it then wait for the temporary lava to expire, and then the lava snake just becomes a regular land monster
13:45:26 <PleasingFungus> !
13:45:32 <PleasingFungus> dang...
13:45:54 <PleasingFungus> See, that's what I love about crawl. All the possibilities for creative problem-solving!
13:45:55 <MarvinPA> (i guess it can probably walk from land back into lava if it tries)
13:47:05 <PleasingFungus> flop
13:47:23 <MarvinPA> time to add lava monster flopping, clearly
13:48:19 <PleasingFungus> wait, is that not already in...!?
13:48:23 <PleasingFungus> wtf
13:48:30 <MarvinPA> no it just walks around like a regular monster when you get it out of lava
13:48:36 <MarvinPA> and chases you down!
13:48:40 <PleasingFungus> that's amazing
13:48:52 <gammafunk> heh
13:48:55 <Cheibriados> lava snake (04S) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 11-23 | AC/EV: 2/17 | Dam: 704(fire:3-5) | Res: 06magic(10), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 48 | Sz: small | Int: reptile.

13:48:55 <gammafunk> %??lava_snake
13:49:08 <gammafunk> that af_fire damage, and now....it knows how to walk!
13:49:09 <MarvinPA> i guess this was impossible until temporary lava became a thing
13:49:21 <PleasingFungus> well, it was possible due to trampling
13:49:23 <PleasingFungus> until like last commit
13:49:38 <MarvinPA> true! but not intentionally i assume
13:49:45 <PleasingFungus> admittedly not
13:50:18 <gammafunk> was there a save compat break between 0.9 and 0.14?
13:50:45 <PleasingFungus> huh, make_name was actually much simpler in the initial commit. (in some ways.) I wonder who felt confident enough to actually muddle with *that* mess?
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13:51:13 <gammafunk> not sure how I can test crawl trunks "incompatible save, do you wish to delete" dialogue in trunk
13:51:28 <gammafunk> don't really want to checkout and compile an ancient version for that
13:51:38 <PleasingFungus> trivial
13:51:40 <PleasingFungus> I get it all the time
13:51:52 <PleasingFungus> just checkout and compile a version before the last minor tag
13:51:53 <MarvinPA> add a new minor tag and try to go backwards from it?
13:52:03 <MarvinPA> or that yeah
13:52:13 <gammafunk> hrm, let's see which that was
13:53:08 <gammafunk> %git :/rPois-
13:53:09 <Cheibriados> 07elliptic02 * 0.16-a0-4017-g5508f4c: Remove rPois- as an artefact property. 10(4 days ago, 5 files, 13+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5508f4ce1861
13:53:21 <PleasingFungus> ah, dshaligram, apparently
13:53:25 <comebackshane> Good evening, my chaps. I stumbled over something interesting in 0.16 plans in learndb
13:53:28 <comebackshane> Transmutations — revamp? New forms, effects (using permanent resources to power spells?); revamp/remove sticks to snakes, ignite poison, &c
13:53:34 <PleasingFungus> wrt the last major make_name rewrite, in '06
13:53:40 <PleasingFungus> comebackshane: ya that didn't really happen
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13:53:51 <PleasingFungus> it was my baby and I whiffed
13:53:51 <comebackshane> any plans for the future?
13:54:00 <PleasingFungus> not afaik
13:54:46 <gammafunk> I think some big areas are STS as a starting spell, do we want that, but probably bigger is how powerful bladehands is
13:54:58 <gammafunk> but I'm not sure if either of those will really change
13:55:13 <comebackshane> I was thinking to myself... stoneskin to help with the horrid defenses early? It is also level 2
13:55:20 <PleasingFungus> I am not convinced that blade hands needs a nerf
13:55:31 <PleasingFungus> it's quite powerful but I see no lack of higher-level forms getting used
13:55:42 <PleasingFungus> comebackshane: stoneskin is a really terribly designed spell
13:55:48 <PleasingFungus> like most of our buffs
13:55:59 <PleasingFungus> I'd rather see it removed or completely reworked than added to more backgrounds
13:56:33 <gammafunk> well "new forms" is pretty unlikely untill the bladehands situations changes, the current situation isn't terribly balanced either in that you don't have a terribly good reason to use other forms aside from species considerations
13:56:58 <gammafunk> but there are bigger problems in crawl anyhow
13:57:15 <Bloax> I'm a munchkin but I still use other forms because why wouldn't I do that.
13:58:13 <PleasingFungus> I think your assumptions are flawed, gammafunk. I see statue form, dragon form, hydra form all get used quite regularly.
13:58:20 <comebackshane> I think blade hands i fine, it takes quite a bit of investment to use it
13:58:43 <comebackshane> xp is always scarce on tm
13:58:44 <gammafunk> I don't think my assumptions are really flawed
13:59:31 <Bloax> the funny thing about blade hands is that it's only truly ridiculous as a Tm^Chei
13:59:40 <Bloax> because if you're not then ice form is better
13:59:42 <gammafunk> well, glad we got that out
13:59:49 <Bloax> and ice form is also very practical
13:59:54 <PleasingFungus> and comfortable!
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14:00:45 <Lasty_> FWIW, I am also concerned about BH, for much the same reasons as gammafunk
14:00:46 <Bloax> since it's in a starter book and it gives rpois and slows most things in lair down, quite so
14:00:52 <Lasty_> And Enslavement in Hexes.
14:00:54 <comebackshane> ice form is very strong combined with oco.. ocozo.. that frosty guys armour
14:01:08 <PleasingFungus> Ozocubu's.
14:01:09 <gammafunk> I think enslave the spell might go next version, to solve that problem
14:01:12 <PleasingFungus> It's a pun.
14:01:24 <gammafunk> it's lovely on a wand, but man when you get infinite uses of it...
14:01:29 <Lasty_> gammafunk: I'm in favor. It's something I've been thinking about for a while.
14:01:43 <Bloax> enslave is hilariously powerful as a spell, yes
14:01:52 <gammafunk> yeah, elliptic does a lot of hexes, so I'd also be curious to hear what he thinks
14:01:54 <PleasingFungus> If we did that, I'd be fine with letting friendly torpor snails affect enemies.
14:02:03 <gammafunk> oh yeah
14:02:05 <Bloax> it's like paralyze except the monsters do all the work for you
14:02:09 <PleasingFungus> this is an incredibly trivial concern, just the first thing I thought of.
14:02:14 <Bloax> and the paralyzed monster also kills other monsters
14:02:15 <comebackshane> anyway if you going to revamp tm at some point in time... my suggeston is to bring back the "mad alchemist" feeling
14:02:21 <gammafunk> well until you make torpor snail form PleasingFungus!
14:02:27 <PleasingFungus> heh
14:02:27 <gammafunk> I know you have a patch for it!
14:02:31 <PleasingFungus> no comment
14:02:59 <gammafunk> boy I guess that would be just "Chiebriados" wouldn't it
14:03:04 <Lasty_> boulder torpor snail form
14:03:09 <PleasingFungus> :(
14:03:14 <PleasingFungus> I put like two months of work into that damn spell
14:03:18 <PleasingFungus> effect, w/e
14:03:40 <PleasingFungus> neither mu nor I could overcome its terrible evil.
14:03:44 <PleasingFungus> someday...
14:04:01 <gammafunk> is mu mumra? I thought that was mumras
14:04:05 <gammafunk> *mumra's
14:04:18 <gammafunk> there's another mu who isn't mumra
14:04:25 <comebackshane> btw why arent chei worshippers immune to slow aura from snail
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14:04:55 <gammafunk> yeah, I guess it could be like thorn hunters under fedhas
14:05:15 <Cheibriados> torpor snail (03w) | Spd: 7 | HD: 10 | HP: 54-66 | AC/EV: 8/1 | Dam: 25 | amphibious | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 422 | Sz: Large | Int: insect.

14:05:15 <gammafunk> %??torpor_snail
14:05:17 <MarvinPA> why would they be? they're not immune to slow spell
14:05:17 <|amethyst> farm torpor snails for extra slouch damage
14:05:40 <comebackshane> or slime monsters under jello
14:05:59 <gammafunk> MarvinPA: I think it's a theme argument to some extent. torpor snails seem like a thing chie would love
14:06:04 <gammafunk> and he wouldn't want you to harm
14:06:26 <|amethyst> make them neutral like jiyva jellies
14:06:31 <MarvinPA> well he's fine with you killing slow monsters and monsters that cast slow
14:06:36 <_miek> You'd still hurt them with your slouch thuogh
14:06:50 <MarvinPA> so probably he would be fine with you killing a slow monster that casts slow, too
14:07:02 <gammafunk> but he has cute slugs on his altar!
14:07:12 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  btw, should slouch damage ignore player slowing the way piety does?
14:07:15 <gammafunk> I guess they're actually snails
14:07:28 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  I guess the argument for status quo is that piety is strategic but damage tactical
14:07:32 <MarvinPA> it probably could just to be consistent
14:07:34 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  and being slowed is a tactical cost
14:07:43 <MarvinPA> i don't think self-slowing is actually an issue there yeah
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14:07:51 <MarvinPA> in terms of balance
14:08:10 <MarvinPA> since probably it is a pretty significant net negative
14:09:15 <comebackshane> A huge gastropod with a rock-hard shell. Torpor snails are said to be in some way connected with the god Cheibriados; just being near them is enough to slow the movements of unwary adventurers, leaving them easy prey for the snails' terrifying, ever-gnashing radulae.
14:09:38 <Lasty_> Altar snails are just metaphorical. Doesn't mean Chei likes real ones.
14:09:57 <PleasingFungus> in some way connected
14:10:07 <Lasty_> "said to be"
14:10:13 <gammafunk> oh does it actually say that
14:10:21 <PleasingFungus> possibly they're cruel parodies of chei; all of the slow with none of the power/enlightenment. probably made by cigotuvi
14:10:22 <wheals> why would chei stop you from slowing down?
14:10:22 <comebackshane> i. e. it's up to your imagination
14:10:25 <PleasingFungus> cigotuvi is kind of a jerk
14:10:31 <comebackshane> and yes that's the in-game description
14:11:07 <gammafunk> well, I refuse to play Cheibriados until torpor snails are friendly when worshiping Cheibriados
14:11:26 <comebackshane> everyone should go at their own slow pace? idk
14:11:59 <PleasingFungus> alternately, torpor snails are larvae; Cheibriados is the mature form. to prevent the appearance of rivals, chei prefers you kill all torpor snails on sight
14:12:09 <PleasingFungus> flavor is easy
14:12:11 <gammafunk> dang
14:12:21 <DrKe> i think chei was immune to slow when the snails were first added
14:12:33 <DrKe> but that was deliberately changed
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14:12:51 <PleasingFungus> %git 99b97708a0985f03ff
14:12:51 <Cheibriados> 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-1729-g99b9770: Allow torpor snails to slow Chei worshippers (PleasingFungus, wheals) 10(8 months ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=99b97708a098
14:12:59 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: you just opened the door to the nightmare possibility of people clamoring for multiple slow gods
14:13:01 <DrKe> DELIBERATELY
14:13:03 <wheals> actually torpor snails grow up into eldritch abominations
14:13:28 <Lasty_> 2012
14:13:30 <PleasingFungus> Lasty_: good news: they already exist! it's just they're all named cheibriados, and also, are all Chei
14:13:34 <gammafunk> we need aut-based scoring and we need it now. to combat the slow god proliferation threat
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14:13:45 <PleasingFungus> !hs * chei
14:13:46 <Sequell> 38511. PurpleRed the Slayer (L27 VSGl of Cheibriados), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-06-15 12:00:10, with 55396974 points after 26025 turns and 10:15:08.
14:13:49 <PleasingFungus> !hs *
14:13:51 <Sequell> 3984278. Sapher the Genius of the Arcane (L26 NaWz of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-10-05 09:05:14, with 65369553 points after 21895 turns and 15:06:14.
14:13:56 <PleasingFungus> no competition
14:14:12 <gammafunk> within 4k, no competition....
14:14:59 <DrKe> !hs * veh
14:15:00 <Sequell> 96853. 4tharraofdagon the Archmage (L27 DEFE of Vehumet), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-05-02 01:35:50, with 50940363 points after 28416 turns and 9:19:50.
14:15:09 <wheals> do you even subtract
14:15:20 <Lasty_> !lg lasty turns>21895 turns<21896 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:15:21 <Sequell> No games for lasty (turns>21895 turns<21896).
14:15:38 <wheals> !lg * turns>21895 turns<21896
14:15:39 <Sequell> No games for * (turns>21895 turns<21896).
14:15:52 <gammafunk> I'm rounding to nearest k, obv
14:15:53 <Lasty_> !lm lasty turns>21895 turns<21896 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:15:54 <Sequell> No milestones for lasty (turns>21895 turns<21896).
14:16:28 <Lasty_> !lm lasty turns>21800 turns<21900 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:16:29 <Sequell> 2 milestones for lasty (turns>21800 turns<21900): avg(absdepth)=11.5
14:16:40 <Lasty_> So close to my 15th rune.
14:16:50 <DrKe> !lm . turns>21800 turns<21900 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:16:51 <Sequell> 14 milestones for DrKe (turns>21800 turns<21900): avg(absdepth)=14.43
14:17:20 <comebackshane> Would you think worse of me if I asked you to re-remake Ely
14:17:35 <gammafunk> !lm . HESu turns>21800 turns<21900 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:17:36 <Sequell> 2 milestones for gammafunk (HESu turns>21800 turns<21900): avg(absdepth)=28.5
14:17:43 <PleasingFungus> is this about the pacifism thing
14:18:29 <comebackshane> Less desirable for DD and HO than before, no more desirable for other races than before
14:18:36 <Bloax> !lm . turns>21800 turns<21900 x=avg(absdept) o=avg(absdepth)
14:18:37 <comebackshane> it's a loss/loss situation
14:18:37 <Sequell> Cannot apply to [absdept]
14:18:45 <Bloax> !lm . turns>21800 turns<21900 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:18:46 <Sequell> 4 milestones for Bloax (turns>21800 turns<21900): avg(absdepth)=14.25
14:18:56 <DrKe> i think ely is more desirable for a lot of characters now
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14:19:12 <Bloax> !lm . turns>15800 turns<20000 x=avg(absdepth) o=avg(absdepth)
14:19:13 <Sequell> 350 milestones for Bloax (turns>15800 turns<20000): avg(absdepth)=16.02
14:19:15 <gammafunk> does anyone know the new ely commit?
14:19:17 <gammafunk> I should make a hw
14:19:25 <elliptic> I've been liking newely on my current character (a VS)
14:19:29 <Lasty_> comebackshane: didn't that already get done?
14:19:30 <PleasingFungus> there were a set of commits, I think
14:19:33 <PleasingFungus> what's a hw
14:19:37 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: yeah, would just need the last one
14:19:44 <gammafunk> er a kw
14:20:00 <MarvinPA> %git 94bad6d25
14:20:00 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.16-a0-3866-g94bad6d: Remove the Healer background 10(3 weeks ago, 8 files, 9+ 70-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=94bad6d2547d
14:20:01 <PleasingFungus> %git 0b2a36624d0
14:20:01 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.16-a0-3865-g0b2a366: Rework Elyvilon's abilities 10(4 weeks ago, 15 files, 46+ 112-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0b2a36624d00
14:20:21 <gammafunk> probably on remove healer makes sense
14:20:26 <PleasingFungus> marvin's is better than mine
14:20:28 <PleasingFungus> ya
14:20:42 <gammafunk> !kw newely vlong>=0.16-a0-3866-g94bad6d
14:20:43 <Sequell> Defined keyword: newely => vlong>=0.16-a0-3866-g94bad6d
14:20:52 <gammafunk> !lg * newely won
14:20:53 <Sequell> 370. allbefore the Conqueror (L27 CeGl of Qazlal), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2015-02-19 18:30:37, with 1450758 points after 122288 turns and 7:27:51.
14:21:00 <gammafunk> !lg * newely won god=ely
14:21:01 <Sequell> 4. huiren the Executioner (L27 HOAr of Elyvilon), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2015-02-08 05:14:52, with 1551335 points after 90217 turns and 8:11:52.
14:21:07 <gammafunk> !lg * newely won god=ely s=char
14:21:08 <Sequell> 4 games for * (newely won god=ely): HuFi, HOFi, CeMo, HOAr
14:21:24 <Lasty_> !lg * newely won god=ely s=char,name
14:21:25 <Sequell> 4 games for * (newely won god=ely): CeMo (puppykicker), HuFi (Basil), HOFi (Floodkiller), HOAr (huiren)
14:21:35 <gammafunk> spicerack!
14:21:37 <Lasty_> I should probably make a point of trying newely
14:22:00 <Lasty_> I'll try it on my next non-Dg character
14:22:02 <comebackshane> dont use any abilites and you'll be fine
14:22:08 <PleasingFungus> good qualifier
14:22:22 <gammafunk> the abilities actively harm you?
14:22:26 <elliptic> newely feels less distinct/flavorful than old ely but also less annoying and more balanced/balanceable
14:22:29 <DrKe> well, they heal you
14:22:31 <gammafunk> that is indeed quite the rework
14:22:32 <DrKe> for hp
14:22:40 <DrKe> that could be seen as harming you if you liked not having full hp
14:22:43 <PleasingFungus> ??makhleb[hp
14:22:44 <Sequell> makhleb[1/6]: Makhleb wants kills and sacrifices, and provides hp-for-kills, two conjuration invocations, and two summoning invocations. Note that Minor Destruction has no piety cost, so you can use it freely (though it is hungering); servants are not 100% friendly; and greater demons are effective against essentially everything.
14:22:45 <PleasingFungus> hm
14:22:49 <wheals> PleasingFungus: is 1.1 make_name more or less the same as initial revision make_name?
14:23:03 <elliptic> also pacifying monsters could be seen as harmful if you really care a lot about experience??
14:23:05 <PleasingFungus> wheals: I would need to dig up the repo
14:23:19 <wheals> http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl-anc.git;a=blob;f=newname.cpp;h=4d1733
14:23:29 <wheals> it even has its own file! (a bad sign)
14:23:33 <PleasingFungus> ahh
14:23:34 <PleasingFungus> ??makhleb[5
14:23:35 <Sequell> makhleb[5/6]: Arrhythmia: 1) every character needs HP to live - Arrhythmia: 2) makh gives HP - Arrhythmia: 3) therefor, makh is good for every character
14:23:37 <PleasingFungus> but for ely
14:23:38 <comebackshane> old ely may have balance issues but was much more interesting (well, let's call it different) than oder gods
14:23:43 <gammafunk> classic Arrhythmia
14:23:52 <wheals> more like "aaaaah" amirite
14:23:55 <DrKe> i would definitely have gone with different
14:24:06 <PleasingFungus> wheals: I am going to die. you have killed me.
14:24:08 <Lasty_> comebackshane: call it "less pleasant"
14:24:16 <wheals> it's like there are two functions in one'
14:24:21 <wheals> just one of them is commented out
14:24:54 <wheals> oh, i suspect the commented out parts are for a very primitive version of @??-name
14:24:55 <PleasingFungus> huh, he has a commented out int main void specifically for testing it as a stand-alone
14:24:56 <PleasingFungus> neat
14:24:58 <PleasingFungus> ya
14:25:11 <wheals> i guess that's just some of the commented out parts
14:25:17 <PleasingFungus> huh
14:25:39 <PleasingFungus> it had numb[] 0-17, then dropped to 14 for initial release, and then back up to 17 when dshaligram rewrote it
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14:26:03 <wheals> i like how the label is named "beginn" and not "begin"
14:26:14 <PleasingFungus> ya
14:26:23 <PleasingFungus> anyway this code is killing me and I am dead now
14:26:25 <PleasingFungus> thanks
14:26:27 <PleasingFungus> thanks a lot
14:26:35 <wheals> char *retcons(char seeds)
14:26:59 <PleasingFungus> oh, interesting, the triple-character stuff was added later
14:27:04 <PleasingFungus> makes sense. it smells exactly like a hack
14:27:13 <PleasingFungus> ...though that's kind of hard to tell apart from the surrounding code...
14:27:19 <wheals> just remember that this is presumably partially cleaned up from 1.0
14:28:05 <comebackshane> When's Pakellas?
14:28:20 <Lasty_> And for that matter, why is green?
14:28:55 <PleasingFungus> Pakellas will be out when it's done.
14:29:00 <PleasingFungus> if (name [i] != 32 && name [i] < 30)
14:29:01 <PleasingFungus> name [i] += 65; //97;
14:29:06 <PleasingFungus> I am kind of sad that I understand what this code is doing
14:29:24 <PleasingFungus> my life is misspent
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14:29:56 <gammafunk> the comment clearly says '97' so if you don't understand that I don't know go learn BASIC or something..
14:30:10 <DrKe> 97 is a number
14:30:22 <DrKe> its less than 98 but more than 96
14:30:45 <PleasingFungus> here is a trick to understanding that code: // 97 is not an explanation of what that's doing, it's a commented out alternate value
14:30:52 <PleasingFungus> a
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14:31:11 <gammafunk> it's a joke, dad
14:31:11 <wheals> it's also obviously of some significance that 32 + 65 = 97
14:31:23 <wheals> no idea what, but!
14:31:37 <PleasingFungus> um
14:31:39 <PleasingFungus> it's not
14:31:41 <PleasingFungus> that's funny tho
14:32:09 <Bloax> but name [i] has to not be 32 but also less than 30
14:32:24 <Bloax> context for all this does wonders
14:32:25 <PleasingFungus> o. hadn't spotted that. funny
14:32:37 <DrKe> wouldnt less than 30 be sufficient on its own
14:32:40 <PleasingFungus> yes
14:32:44 <wheals> of course
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14:32:51 <comebackshane> PleasingFungus Your life isn't misspent. crawl spends a lot of people solace. A few fleeting moments of joy in our twisted and acursed world. A moment of peace, a momentary escape from the lively nightmares of daily violence. Thanks to you and the other devs. Isn't that a life well spent?
14:32:59 <PleasingFungus> nah
14:33:01 <PleasingFungus> :p
14:33:06 <gammafunk> inspiring..
14:33:07 <PleasingFungus> name is an array of chars. 32 is ' ', 30 and below are control characters (31 is too but he forgot?), 65 is A, 95 is a
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14:33:14 <PleasingFungus> it's ascii math
14:33:18 <wheals> shouldn't that be "a momentary escape into the lively nightmares of daily violence"?
14:33:25 <PleasingFungus> it can be both.
14:33:33 <comebackshane> whatever floats your boat
14:33:55 <PleasingFungus> see, this is why he dislikes the ely rework!
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14:35:01 <PleasingFungus> dang, all those experiments with allocating a 30-character array. should I use malloc? should I check if the buffer was successfully allocated?
14:35:07 <PleasingFungus> code as history
14:36:03 <comebackshane> wait what why do I dislike
14:36:21 <PleasingFungus> all the violence!
14:36:28 <wheals> * Killing normal (not spitting) plants gave you far too much xp;
14:36:35 <comebackshane> true
14:36:37 <wheals> huh, oklobs have been around literally forever
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14:36:45 <PleasingFungus> oklobs are great.
14:36:50 <comebackshane> also turning gold dragons with one use of lesser healing was fun
14:36:51 <wheals> agreed.
14:37:09 <comebackshane> but alas I just adapt to the new one I guess
14:37:10 <PleasingFungus> plog has, likewise, been around forever
14:37:21 <PleasingFungus> comebackshane: you can always play 0.15-!
14:37:36 <comebackshane> nah, I can't live in the past forever
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14:38:00 <PleasingFungus> oh god, I just feel bad making fun of this one
14:38:05 <PleasingFungus> wheals, look at char reduce
14:38:27 <wheals> i glanced at it earlier, wasn't it an ascii math thing?
14:38:30 * wheals checks
14:38:33 <PleasingFungus> it's
14:38:44 <PleasingFungus> "return reducee % 26"
14:39:04 <PleasingFungus> except in 5 lines instead
14:39:22 <wheals> that was probably in the chapter with pointers
14:39:28 <PleasingFungus> heh
14:44:19 <comebackshane> there is one last thing I have to bother you with for today
14:44:34 <comebackshane> anybody know how to get the draconian or demonspawn "job" tiles to work
14:45:05 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk?
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14:45:15 <gammafunk> yeah?
14:45:21 <gammafunk> oh
14:45:26 <gammafunk> no those can't work, sorry
14:45:35 <gammafunk> they're added onto the base monster tiles
14:45:52 <gammafunk> through the class system, and the player doll drawing has no facility for this
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14:46:15 <gammafunk> something I might like to add in the future, though!
14:46:31 <comebackshane> yes that would be awesome! some good looking tiles in there
14:46:34 <gammafunk> then again we could remove said classes and make the various monsters into standalone monsters...
14:46:46 <PleasingFungus> +1
14:46:57 <gammafunk> but I think that's only the plan for ds monsters? since their facets aren't great
14:46:57 <comebackshane> +1
14:47:01 <gammafunk> -2
14:47:08 <comebackshane> well im no dev so make that +0.1
14:47:18 <gammafunk> fractional votes...
14:48:00 <PleasingFungus> iirc there were suggestions to merge drac colours and classes
14:48:05 <PleasingFungus> so e.g. scorchers would always be red
14:48:21 <gammafunk> ah, so maybe that also would work
14:48:22 <PleasingFungus> that's... the only one anyone ever mentions, since none of the other classes really correlate especially obviously with colours
14:48:30 <gammafunk> right
14:48:33 <PleasingFungus> also there's a mismatch between # of classes and colours. that's solveable too, ofc
14:48:49 <PleasingFungus> fwiw I'm much more fine with drac classes than with ds
14:49:02 <comebackshane> btw why is the electric draconian black but the electric dragon is dark blue
14:49:04 <PleasingFungus> they're much simpler (both the colours and the classes)
14:49:25 <gammafunk> I think basically because shadow dragons exist and there's no choice
14:49:33 <gammafunk> but the problem is that blue looks like pale
14:49:35 <gammafunk> for dracs
14:49:42 <PleasingFungus> comebackshane: "blame console"
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14:50:05 <|amethyst> because draconians come from D&D but our dragons try not to
14:50:05 <gammafunk> yeah and I guess there's no pale dragon to conflict, only pale draconian
14:50:36 <PleasingFungus> heh
14:50:39 <gammafunk> hopefully those three conflicting answers fully answered your question, comebackshane
14:50:58 <PleasingFungus> technically our draconians come from an angband derivative
14:50:59 <PleasingFungus> I forget which one
14:51:01 <|amethyst> pick and choose
14:51:05 <PleasingFungus> something that linley was playing at the time
14:51:38 <gammafunk> oh wow, didn't know that
14:51:39 <comebackshane> gammafunk, yes I now blame D&D for console played by pale skinned people
14:51:45 <gammafunk> heh
14:51:54 <PleasingFungus> 2.80 [18.10.1998] * New species: Draconian (yes, I have been playing too much Zangband!);
14:52:08 <gammafunk> did they immediately replace DE in zot?
14:52:11 <gammafunk> or was that change later
14:52:23 <gammafunk> oh that's a new player species, sorry
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14:52:25 <PleasingFungus> I think drac monsters and dracs in zot were both later. not sure tho
14:52:32 <PleasingFungus> god, this changelog is great
14:52:43 <PleasingFungus> * New monsters, including some which make curse skulls look completely harmless;
14:52:58 <PleasingFungus> also the commit that added healer (RIP)
14:53:16 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  IMO you should blame linguistic barriers, the history of gaming in the US and Australia, and global income inequalities for console being played by pale skinned people
14:53:39 <PleasingFungus> whoa
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14:54:01 <PleasingFungus> 2.92 [??.??.????]
14:54:03 <PleasingFungus> * I think I forgot to release this version.
14:54:04 <|amethyst> (global and national)
14:54:06 <|amethyst> heh
14:54:07 <PleasingFungus> I tweeted this a while ago but I still love it
14:54:10 <|amethyst> I remember seeing that
14:54:11 <comebackshane> will do
14:54:14 <|amethyst> oh, probably there
14:54:18 <PleasingFungus> ya
14:55:12 <wheals> draconians being in zot is a stone soup thing
14:55:54 <wheals> also, the electric dragon isn't dark blue, it's lightblue...
14:55:58 <Bloax> it's actually really bright pure blue
14:56:08 <Bloax> and since blue is very dark, you can do the math
14:56:36 <comebackshane> im color blind which makes playing draconian more interesting
14:56:39 <comebackshane> jk
14:57:11 <|amethyst> My father-in-law is red-green colourblind
14:57:46 <Bloax> that's unfortunate
14:57:47 <wheals> |amethyst: so half your sons would be?
14:57:52 <|amethyst> a few christmasses ago he bought me a nice pair of bright pink hiking socks
14:57:59 <wheals> haha
14:58:05 <comebackshane> it's the thought that counts right
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14:58:33 <|amethyst> wheals:  I suppose it would be rude to say "half of my wife's sons" :P
14:58:36 <Bloax> what if most of the people who wear bright pink things are actually red-green colourblind
14:58:38 <comebackshane> did you know that the mantis shrimp has sexnocular vision?
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14:59:09 <wheals> i guess you don't have much of a say in the matter...
14:59:30 <wheals> anyway, someone suggested semi-recently renaming black draconians blue
14:59:51 <Cheibriados> pale draconian (10d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 84-112 | AC/EV: 9/14 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), steam | XP: 1237 | Sp: steam ball (3d18) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

14:59:51 <gammafunk> %??pale_draconian
14:59:57 <Cheibriados> black draconian (02d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 84-112 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, fly | Res: 06magic(40), 10elec++ | XP: 1293 | Sp: b.lightning (3d19) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

14:59:57 <gammafunk> %??black_draconian
14:59:58 <wheals> which would match better with storms, and with the console (looks like recolouring the tile shouldn't be too hard since they're all pallete-swaps)
15:00:03 <gammafunk> oh, er
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15:00:07 <Cheibriados> red draconian (04d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 84-112 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire | XP: 1237 | Sp: searing breath (3d18) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:00:07 <gammafunk> %??red_draconian
15:00:09 <comebackshane> actually it's hexnocular
15:00:13 <comebackshane> damn you zefrank1
15:00:18 <comebackshane> don't teach me nonsense
15:00:32 <|amethyst> I don't think there should be an "n" there
15:02:31 <|amethyst> hm
15:02:31 <comebackshane> the red draconian doesnt match his big counterpart either
15:03:22 <wheals> there was also discussion of kicking wyverns out of D
15:03:54 <|amethyst> t is still a weird letter to me
15:04:01 <Lasty_> Wyverns are nothing but a bunch of freeloading ls.
15:04:06 <|amethyst> if we're talking about rearranging reptiles :)
15:04:13 <|amethyst> hydrae on D is also weird
15:04:54 <Lasty_> We should make them #, since it's the character with the most pointy ends.
15:05:05 <comebackshane> But lindwurm is k
15:05:07 <|amethyst> # should be octopode
15:05:24 <Lasty_> and spiders
15:05:25 <wheals> octothorpode
15:06:01 <DrKe> wyvern on D is a bit much probably
15:06:20 <DrKe> l or k would be alright
15:06:46 <DrKe> everything else that carries the letter D has some special ability or multiple attacks
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15:07:03 <gammafunk> when you first see wyverns, it's often wise to treat  them like a D, at least
15:07:05 <DrKe> all wyverns have is fast movement, which is actually uncommon for D
15:07:14 <DrKe> i mean yeah they're a respectable monster
15:07:18 <DrKe> but there's a lot of l and k that i respect too
15:07:22 <|amethyst> Mechanically they're an l
15:07:25 <Lasty_> of those letters, only some ls have fast movement
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15:07:26 <|amethyst> thematically they're a k
15:07:37 <comebackshane> wyverns are actual dragons for what it's worth
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15:07:55 <comebackshane> unlike hydras
15:07:59 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  so are lindwurms mythologically
15:08:02 <gammafunk> hrm, are there any fast l besides, what, geckos?
15:08:04 <comebackshane> yes exactly
15:08:05 <Cheibriados> giant gecko (08l) | Spd: 12 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-8 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Dam: 5 | cold-blooded | XP: 2 | Sz: little | Int: reptile.

15:08:05 <gammafunk> %??giant_gecko
15:08:13 <wheals> crocodilia probably could also be l
15:08:19 <comebackshane> wingless dragons afaik
15:08:24 <Cheibriados> crocodile (07t) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20), 12drown | XP: 105 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.

15:08:24 <DrKe> %??crocodile
15:08:24 <wheals> who knows where testudines really belong
15:08:32 <wheals> or crabs
15:08:35 <Cheibriados> wyvern (04D) | Spd: 15 | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 20 | fly | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 207 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

15:08:35 <DrKe> %??wyvern
15:08:42 <DrKe> croc and wyvern have very similar stats
15:09:11 <gammafunk> yeah, just the speed difference
15:09:12 <comebackshane> wyvern zombies are surprisingly hard
15:09:13 <|amethyst> wheals:  I can understand, despite the genetic distance, putting turtles and crabs on the same letter
15:09:28 <DrKe> well, wyvern zombies are only artificially common, since there was a change to make only fast zombies spawn
15:09:31 <|amethyst> wheals:  what I don't understand is putting crocodiles and alligators on that letter too
15:09:40 <Cheibriados> wyvern (04t) | Spd: 15 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | HP: 18-37 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 20 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20), 12drown | XP: 105 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.

15:09:40 <wheals> %??crocodile name:wyvern perm_ench:haste col:lightred
15:09:54 <DrKe> which i still think is kinda awkward, but it does make for more interesting encounters
15:10:06 <comebackshane> what's the deal with crustaceanns in crawl brething all sorts of fire anyway
15:10:12 <|amethyst> wheals:  (crocdile + turtle without crab is also weird, because they're like completely opposite ends of the reptile clade)
15:10:12 <comebackshane> -n
15:10:34 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  well, the regular crabs aren't interesting enough to be monsters
15:10:34 <comebackshane> they breathe fire so move crabs to D
15:10:55 <wheals> |amethyst: well, reptiles as a whole are also paraphyletic :)
15:11:07 <|amethyst> wheals:  not if you include birds etc :)
15:11:08 * geekosaur played with a simpler crab, it was not very interesting
15:11:29 <wheals> move the spare reptiles to Q? :P
15:11:40 <comebackshane> idk man, a giant crab sounds pretty scary to me
15:11:47 <wheals> "non-lizard-like members of the reptile clade"
15:11:48 <DrKe> only a giant enemy crab
15:11:55 <comebackshane> it could hold you in place with its pincer
15:12:10 <comebackshane> or have you seen those crabs that have one giant pincer
15:12:13 * wheals attacks DrKe's weak point!!!!!
15:12:22 <|amethyst> wheals:  snakes to l
15:12:36 <|amethyst> birds to l
15:12:47 <|amethyst> or maybe D
15:12:49 <comebackshane> they could also burrow under the sand in shoals
15:12:56 <wheals> trapdoor crabs
15:13:06 <comebackshane> the horrors these things harbor are endless!
15:13:17 <|amethyst> "harbor", hah
15:14:43 <comebackshane> btw if I had an idea for a monster
15:14:47 <comebackshane> with stats and everything
15:14:52 <comebackshane> where would I send those to
15:15:06 <wheals> |amethyst: when i saw an old thing that someone died in "Port", i assumed that was the precursor to Sewer
15:15:11 <|amethyst> make a patch and post it on mantis
15:15:31 -!- fiddlerwoaroof has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:16:43 <|amethyst> if C++ (even search-copy-paste-edit for the most part) isn't your thing, you could post stuff on the tavern Game Design Discussion board, but that's not particularly likely to get it implemented
15:17:21 <comebackshane> yeah im afraid I would learn how to code first
15:17:37 <ontoclasm> making monsters generally isn't that hard
15:17:37 <comebackshane> have to*
15:17:44 <ontoclasm> source: i've done it and i'm terrible
15:17:50 <|amethyst> I learned C 20 years ago by reading and tweaking Nethack sources
15:18:00 <ontoclasm> i learned c++ from crawl
15:18:03 <ontoclasm> mostly
15:18:19 <comebackshane> oncoclasm which monster did you invent
15:18:49 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  what I'd suggest: find a similar monster and find its enum in enums.h  (like   MONS_GHOST_CRAB).   Search all the .cc and .h files for GHOST_CRAB
15:19:00 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  and copy and paste until it works :P
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15:19:29 <comebackshane> 'tis in the source code?
15:19:31 <ontoclasm> comebackshane: a monster that didn't get added (because it was dumb)
15:19:42 <wheals> i think it was ontoclasm who suggested making apoc crabs crabs
15:19:45 <|amethyst> I got a dumb monster added
15:19:51 <comebackshane> 100 bisondollars say it was polymoth
15:20:03 <ontoclasm> yes, i did suggest apoc crabs iirc
15:20:15 <ontoclasm> but the one i coded was a blind eye that would cast invis other
15:22:23 <MarvinPA> |amethyst: what would need to be done on the server side for zotdef being disabled? i have a commit ready, should it wait for 0.16 to branch? (i think zotdef should be disabled in trunk as well as stable though, really)
15:22:35 <comebackshane> I must say my fellow chaps, adding some branch-exclusive monsters to cocytus was a good idea and the same should be done for the other hells
15:22:51 -!- Bloax is now known as Bloax_
15:23:02 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  Hmm
15:23:02 <ontoclasm> iron shrikes
15:23:20 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  It's just a matter of removing entries from a few config files right now
15:23:20 <wheals> iron gargoyles
15:23:36 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  and not adding new ones as new versions are released
15:23:41 <ontoclasm> wait, no, iron shrikes wouldn't work
15:23:51 <ontoclasm> 'cause it's three shrikes, you're out
15:24:00 <geekosaur> shrike that thought, reverse it...
15:24:01 <|amethyst> !lg * current zotdef
15:24:03 <Sequell> 2547. Jelle1112 the Cudgeler (L1 MiBe of Trog), rotted away (a bat) in Zot (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault) on 2015-02-19 16:14:12, with 0 points after 206 turns and 0:00:56.
15:24:06 <|amethyst> !lm * current zotdef crash
15:24:07 <Sequell> 64. [2015-02-11 21:01:29] atrodo the Demonologist (L20 FeSu of Sif Muna) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 114: ZotDef: monster ice statue failed to pathfind to (39,17) (the Orb) (Zot)
15:24:13 <|amethyst> !lm * current zotdef crash s=gid
15:24:14 <Sequell> 64 milestones for * (current zotdef crash): 5x genericusername42:cszo:20150101002853S, 5x tlhonmey:cao:20150019193545S, 5x atrodo:cszo:20150109204331S, 5x jefkin:cao:20140818053633S, 4x magicalfaerieponies:cbro:20141108061237S, 4x trelanon:cszo:20140828230022S, 3x Mossy:cao:20141026202250S, 3x JaridTorvin:cszo:20150004024033S, 3x HarmlessChicken:cao:20140923210744S, 2x TheSomberlain:cao:2014112313...
15:24:19 <wheals> you'd need to modify dgl and webtiles, right?
15:24:22 <|amethyst> !lm * current zotdef crash x=cdist(gid)
15:24:23 <Sequell> 64 milestones for * (current zotdef crash): cdist(game_key)=31
15:24:31 <|amethyst> wheals:  right, a few config files :)
15:24:38 <|amethyst> wheals:  both their confs, and the menus
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15:25:17 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  I guess one question is, is 0.16 zotdef more or less buggy than 0.15?
15:25:29 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  if it's less buggy overall we might make one last zotdef release
15:25:38 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  but disable it in trunk
15:25:52 <MarvinPA> i think it was unreleasably buggy in 0.15
15:26:06 <|amethyst> and probably still is then?
15:26:20 <MarvinPA> and still is now, yeah, not sure if much has changed in either direction since then
15:26:35 <wheals> it's not even just the crashes
15:26:39 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8738
15:26:47 <MarvinPA> that's my favourite one
15:27:01 <|amethyst> !seen atomjack
15:27:02 <Sequell> I last saw atomjack at Fri Mar 14 18:20:33 2014 UTC (48w 6d 3h 6m 28s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Lost terminal'.
15:27:10 <|amethyst> 11 months :(
15:28:08 -!- indspenceable has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:28:12 <|amethyst> I guess it makes sense to remove it sooner rather than later
15:28:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
15:28:19 <dpeg> !seen reaverb
15:28:20 <Sequell> I last saw reaverb at Fri Feb 13 06:01:55 2015 UTC (6d 15h 26m 24s ago) quitting, saying 'Ping timeout: 265 seconds'.
15:28:26 <wheals> the prophecies state he shall return after one year
15:28:33 <wheals> er
15:28:34 <|amethyst> after the 0.16 branch that just means cherry-picking or duplicating work
15:28:40 <wheals> atomjack, not reaverb
15:29:11 <dpeg> wheals: great, many thanks
15:30:16 <wheals> dpeg: any thoughts on the changes in gozag_wrath branch? (and pinging MarvinPA )
15:30:34 <MarvinPA> oh yeah i meant to poke people about that, thanks for doing it for me :P
15:30:55 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
15:30:56 <dpeg> wheals: I am still too down to have thoughts on that :(
15:31:00 <comebackshane> a gozag branch? does it contain the hedonistic rune of zot?
15:31:37 <|amethyst> comebackshane: not that kind of branch :P
15:31:38 <dpeg> regarding mimics: my now dead FoWn had a labyrinth in Orc:4, which took risk & effort to track down, and then was a mimic. <3 <3 <3
15:31:40 <Cheibriados> yaktaur captain (04c) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 62-95 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 23 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, archer | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 1045 | Sz: Big | Int: normal.

15:31:40 <gammafunk> %??yaktaur_captain
15:31:42 <ontoclasm> gold-plated rune of zot
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15:32:01 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:32:33 <comebackshane> Btw Gozag needs some love imo
15:32:56 -!- Earlo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:33:13 <dpeg> comebackshane: tell us how
15:33:34 <dpeg> comebackshane: what did you try, what did (not) work
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15:35:26 <comebackshane> I find that the touch of midas thing makes him an undesirable choice for many characters
15:35:47 <|amethyst> do you mean the wrath thing, or the corpse thing?
15:35:53 <dpeg> comebackshane: needs more context... yeah
15:35:53 <comebackshane> the corpse thing
15:36:08 <dpeg> !won dpeg Gozag
15:36:09 <Sequell> dpeg (Gozag) has won 3 times in 57 games (5.26%): 1xOpVM 1xSpAs 1xTrMo
15:36:24 <comebackshane> how did that troll not starve
15:36:34 <comebackshane> okay I take everything back
15:36:36 <dpeg> comebackshane: you can buy fiid!
15:36:44 <dpeg> food even
15:36:56 <dpeg> !lg comebackshane Gozag
15:36:56 <comebackshane> but it takes a while till you can set up the first shop doesnt it
15:36:57 <Sequell> No games for comebackshane (Gozag).
15:37:41 <Lasty_> !gamesby comebackshane
15:37:42 <Sequell> comebackshane has played 1 game, between 2015-02-19 06:14:32 and 2015-02-19 06:15:37, won 0, high score 0, total score 0, total turns 33, play-time/day 0:00:52, total time 0:00:52.
15:37:54 <comebackshane> I don't play online
15:37:56 <dpeg> comebackshane: you have good problems right from the beginning?
15:38:08 <dpeg> damn, what is it: "food problems"
15:38:19 <comebackshane> well if you play troll anyway
15:38:28 <comebackshane> and worship gozag asap
15:38:37 <comebackshane> things get tight
15:38:58 <dpeg> sure, but that's probably the most anti-synergistic combo
15:39:21 <_miek> Gozag seems unfocused to me
15:39:34 <dpeg> _miek: from reading or from playing it?
15:39:39 <|amethyst> mechanically or thematically?
15:39:42 <_miek> like, Trog/Okawaru give you items but also strong combat powers
15:39:45 <_miek> mechanically
15:39:59 <_miek> and to be fair I've only played him for a short bit in wiz mode
15:40:04 <comebackshane> you should be able to set up mercenary camps
15:40:05 <comebackshane> kappa
15:40:42 <_miek> the mercenary thing seems a bit like Yred/Beogh gifting, the shops seems a bit like Oka/Trog gifting
15:40:51 <dpeg> the potions are a strong, tactical power
15:41:34 <dpeg> you get access to items (in a different way than with T & O), and you can change the power level of branches
15:41:35 <_miek> yeah but other races can use those too
15:41:39 <_miek> the only difference is the frequency
15:42:00 <dpeg> _miek: no, not at all: the bribing goes to the most threatening opposition -- try it!
15:42:14 <_miek> sorry I meant potion petition
15:42:35 <|amethyst> doesn't PP give you several potion effects in one turn?
15:42:45 <dpeg> |amethyst: yes, it is really strong
15:42:56 <comebackshane> is gozag a goblin from WoW by any chance
15:43:23 <dpeg> comebackshane: I don't think so. I have never player WoW, my sanity be blessed.
15:43:28 <|amethyst> WoW has named things after Crawl gods before
15:43:41 <|amethyst> so I wouldn't be terribly surprised
15:43:48 <|amethyst> Last Deck of Nemelex Xobeh
15:44:08 <|amethyst> there are crawl fans in WoW dev :)
15:44:19 <comebackshane> That was a nice touch
15:44:35 <dpeg> |amethyst: if they were naming something after Gozag, then they'd have to be bleeding-edge Crawl fans, tough :)
15:44:55 <|amethyst> dpeg:  if they're game devs . . .
15:45:06 <|amethyst> dpeg:  might be slightly more likely to compile their own :)
15:45:47 <|amethyst> dpeg:  (or, contrariwise, they might be tired of compiling their own thing, and not want to compile other peoples'
15:45:50 <_miek> ??gozag
15:45:51 <Sequell> gozag[1/3]: The greedy god of gold. Turns corpses into gold, may cause enemies to lose turns when fighting next to corpse-gold, lets you use {potion petition}, lets you create shops, {bribe branch}es, and duplicate a non-artefact item once. Does not have a normal piety system.
15:46:00 <|amethyst> )
15:46:15 <comebackshane> can you duplicate stacks of bread again?
15:46:29 <dpeg> comebackshane: duplication is gone
15:46:45 <dpeg> (btw, my Troll game actually duplicated food)
15:46:55 <comebackshane> oh...
15:46:59 <_miek> would like a "goldify" ability on gozag, that petrifies an enemy by turning him to gold, and acts like "corpse-gold" in causing other enemies to lose turns
15:47:23 <comebackshane> that sounds awfully familiar
15:47:23 <|amethyst> we already have two instakill gods
15:47:26 <simmarine> i support that only if i can turn fire dragons and ice dragons into gold dragons
15:47:29 <|amethyst> three
15:47:37 <_miek> well that's why I said petrify
15:47:41 <comebackshane> "instakill" gods?
15:47:54 <_miek> instead of just being a gold version of slimify
15:48:00 <|amethyst> ah
15:48:04 <|amethyst> I see, they turn back :)
15:48:09 <_miek> yep
15:48:20 <simmarine> comebackshane: probably ely and lugonu
15:48:28 <_miek> just a better way to control the corpse-gold effects
15:48:32 <simmarine> and maybe jiyva slimify i guess too
15:48:35 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  ely, lugonu, and jiyva all have ways of permanently disabling monsters without regards to how damaged they are
15:48:52 <comebackshane> you have to use heal other VERY sparingly nowadays though
15:49:12 <|amethyst> it's less spammable, but it's still an instakill :)
15:49:23 <|amethyst> unless you're in a corridor and don't have digging
15:49:27 <|amethyst> then it's annoying
15:49:28 <dpeg> _miek: I thought for a while about how to prevent the typical "bribe individual monster" trope -- it is natural, but not at all what I want. (For example: you have to target individual monsters, like with a any spell etc.); tougher monsters should be harder to bribe, or more expensive etc.
15:49:49 <comebackshane> btw you can still attempt to pacify the same monster multiple times, that intended?
15:50:11 <|amethyst> yes, that's why the message tells you whether it might work if you try again
15:50:33 <_miek> if you goldify a strong monster then perhaps some other monsters will offer their services to you
15:50:38 <_miek> I dunno, that's not very good either
15:50:56 <|amethyst> would be nice to show success % there before release
15:51:12 <dpeg> |amethyst: for pacification? Yes, I agree.
15:51:21 <|amethyst> dpeg:  yeah
15:51:27 <comebackshane> "he turn our leader to gold! all hail our new leader!"
15:51:30 <|amethyst> _miek:  anyway, what happens if you pick up a pile of petrified goblin?
15:51:36 <dpeg> |amethyst: are implementables still a thing?
15:51:43 <|amethyst> _miek:  or did you mean not actually gold
15:51:52 <|amethyst> dpeg:  yeah, but I don't know who follows them
15:52:04 <|amethyst> dpeg:  certainly more get written than implemented on average
15:52:06 <_miek> |amethyst: its just a statue, you can't pick him up, and the gold wears off
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15:52:23 <|amethyst> _miek: oh, sorry
15:52:31 <_miek> |amethyst: I imagine its like petrifying an enemy, give a huge boost to defenses so he's hard to kill while under the effect
15:52:32 <|amethyst> _miek:  I was imagining an actual pile of gold :)
15:52:32 <dpeg> _miek: I believe that bribing will need tweaking in future (it can be made arbitrarily strong/cheap, so there will always be branches where it under- or overperforms). However, bribing is very noticeable in many branches as is.
15:52:48 <_miek> |amethyst: Nah I was just meaning it also gives the same effects as corpse gold, so you can control when they happen
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15:53:03 <comebackshane> what if gozag allowed you to sell items
15:53:04 <_miek> another option is a goldify blessing to your equipment
15:53:08 <_miek> gilding
15:53:19 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  we already got rid of "sacrifice everything" on Nemelex
15:53:33 <|amethyst> comebackshane:  maybe, *maybe* if you could use it once ever
15:53:41 <dpeg> _miek: that is another idea for an early/cheap power, if needed: Fool's Gold: you spend the money, and it distributed around you (and fresh, and disappears after a while).
15:53:41 <|amethyst> but otherwise it's a farmer magnet
15:54:01 <dpeg> comebackshane: you have tons of gold already?!
15:54:03 <comebackshane> he highlighted the maybe, I think we got it for sure guys
15:54:31 <|amethyst> I was just highlighting that I didn't mean my comment as an endorsement of the idea
15:54:49 <|amethyst> :)
15:55:01 <_miek> like a lot of gods have good passive abilities that are basically always active
15:55:37 <dpeg> _miek: so Gozag has the corpse distraction effect. It is reliable now, perhaps it should be stronger. You definitely gain turns & attackes from it already.
15:55:53 <_miek> yeah its just reliable on corpses
15:55:58 <_miek> reliant*
15:56:17 <_miek> compare to say Ru where you get a similar effect all the time
15:56:28 <|amethyst> could make demons, undead etc drop gold too
15:56:37 <comebackshane> what if you emit an aura of classiness and wealth
15:56:42 <|amethyst> anything not insubstantial
15:56:47 <dpeg> _miek: and all corpse-producing monsters do give gold!
15:56:51 <_miek> if everything dropped gold regardless of whether they would drop a corpse
15:56:54 <dpeg> |amethyst: true
15:56:59 <_miek> oh they do that now?
15:57:12 <|amethyst> dpeg:  but it does make Gozag play somewhat differently in extended I imagine
15:57:12 <dpeg> _miek: yes, so the effect is more reliable than in the past
15:57:19 <|amethyst> dpeg:  depending on corpses, that is
15:57:27 <comebackshane> I have a top hat and a monocle, gaze in awe wretched monster!
15:57:42 <dpeg> |amethyst: my SpAs got a hell rune just to test bribing there (my first hell rune since 0.4 or so)
15:58:07 <chequers> 2015-02-19 21:54:19,471 ERROR: Exception in callback <functools.partial object at 0x7fb4929e2d08>
15:58:11 <chequers> Traceback (most recent call last): File "/var/www/dcss-webserver/crawl-ref/source/webserver/venv/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/tornado/ioloop.py", line 565, in _run_callback
15:58:17 <chequers> ret = callback()
15:58:20 <chequers> File "/var/www/dcss-webserver/crawl-ref/source/webserver/venv/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/tornado/stack_context.py", line 275, in null_wrapper
15:58:23 <chequers> return fn(*args, **kwargs)
15:58:25 <chequers> File "./server.py", line 146, in purge_login_tokens_timeout
15:58:28 <chequers> userdb.purge_login_tokens()
15:58:30 <chequers> File "/var/www/dcss-webserver/crawl-ref/source/webserver/userdb.py", line 182, in purge_login_tokens
15:58:31 <|amethyst> dpeg:  yeah, not saying Gozag is too hard, I've not gotten far enough with em to say
15:58:38 <chequers> for sid in sessions:
15:58:38 <chequers> RuntimeError: dictionary changed size during iteration
15:58:40 <chequers> gammafunk: ^ seen this before?
15:58:54 <|amethyst> dpeg:  but I bet you didn't take advantage of distraction as much there as elsewhere in the game :)
15:59:11 <dpeg> indeed :)
16:00:04 <_miek> are you doing sessions.pop() in the middle of the run through?
16:00:08 <_miek> or something like that?
16:00:15 <wheals> dpeg: i'm fairly sure MarvinPA thought that duplication could be made acceptable by his standards (even if not something he liked so much)? he just wanted to disable it for 0.16 until we all come to a decision
16:00:36 <wheals> or even if not acceptable, something we could all live with
16:01:12 <|amethyst> I kind of think it suffers a irreparable psychological problem
16:01:26 <|amethyst> in that you want to duplicate the cool stuff
16:01:26 <_miek> psh instead of duplication he should just offer a free experience potion or something
16:01:31 <dpeg> wheals: I got this shot of blood to the head when I saw the commit email (some of you might know what I mean) that I couldn't even properly finish reading it.
16:01:33 <|amethyst> but the cool stuff generally isn't worth duplicating
16:01:37 <comebackshane> Gyre and Gymble is a quickblade that got duplicated but the guy who asked for it abandoned gozag mid transformation
16:02:02 <wheals> G(yre)ozag(imble)
16:02:10 <|amethyst> (weapons, armour, most jewellery)
16:02:47 <dpeg> The main Gozag parameters that I see (ignoring wrath and the duplication topic, cannot comment on that): (1) should bought shops have guaranteed-usable stock?, (2) bribing parameters per branch, (3) distraction effect boost and/or Fool's gold. IMO, neitherof these is urgent. In particular, I think distraction, gold accumulation, emergency potion effect, shop placement and at least some bribings are good e
16:02:53 <dpeg> nough for now.
16:03:09 <comebackshane> now you ve done it
16:03:13 <comebackshane> now i wanna play gozag
16:03:24 <comebackshane> a kobobd maybe?
16:03:37 <|amethyst> dpeg:  hm, could even have acquirement-class shops
16:03:44 <|amethyst> dpeg:  since you have to pay for the items anyway...
16:03:50 <dpeg> yes
16:04:02 <dpeg> |amethyst: yes, I guess this needs some calmer reassessment... I have duplicated so far: food (for that Troll), curare (for the SpAs), some potion (for a trove).
16:04:03 <wheals> right, i was going to look into doing that
16:04:15 <wheals> but i got distracted by wanting to refactor makeitem.cc :P
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16:04:43 <gammafunk> chequers: oh yeah, that does seem to do a del with the original list
16:04:59 <gammafunk> needs to use a copy
16:05:12 <_miek> yeah ammo, consumables and rings are the only things you want to duplicate
16:05:26 <_miek> hmmm maybe rods or something
16:05:38 <gammafunk> that's an easy fix though
16:05:46 <dpeg> I also think that there's a mismatch between expectations... perhaps some of you just expect more (or cooler) things from it. I am happy to duplicate some consumable, and I am satisfied with the decision of what & when. It's not a huge deal... later.
16:06:01 <gammafunk> s/original list/original dict/
16:06:30 <_miek> what would be really cool is being able to buy artifact props
16:06:49 <|amethyst> _miek:  have you seen Igni?
16:06:50 <gammafunk> ??igni
16:06:50 <Sequell> igni[1/1]: An abandoned experimental god, described in commit http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=c07910ae6d3bea3a66328782ca471c5a7da96add and available to play on {CSZO}.
16:06:52 <dpeg> ah, that cool concept from smithgod
16:07:02 <_miek> ah..
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16:07:54 <_miek> he could offer a choice of 3 every X amount of time/exploration/xp and then you choose one
16:07:55 <|amethyst> I think that would be a less strategically puzzling but probably more fun ultimate ability
16:08:25 <gammafunk> dpeg: I think MarvinPA's concern re duplicate might still revolve around wrath exploits, but maybe it's some other issue in general
16:08:49 <MarvinPA> the major problem with it is that immediately-accessible duplication just can't be a thing without working wrath, which we don't have
16:09:10 <dpeg> MarvinPA: this is true, but that's also why I suggested some wrath ideas.
16:09:11 <MarvinPA> i also don't think immediately-accessible duplication is good or interesting
16:09:23 <MarvinPA> but i wouldn't remove it if it weren't for the wrath thing
16:09:28 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I guess on that one we will just continue to disagree.
16:09:51 <dpeg> I never got a reply to my wrath c-r-d mail. Would it work in principle?
16:09:52 <MarvinPA> dpeg: right, there's not time to get that in shape for 0.16 though i think
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16:10:21 <comebackshane> The wrath of Gozag is upon you! Your plate armour is rusted shut (Corr -x)! You are unable to move!
16:11:47 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I cannot say how hard to cold the item/gold mimics would be. I believe they're scum-proof and I think they're thematic (that's the Midas curse).
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16:12:53 <dpeg> !seen mumra
16:12:54 <Sequell> I last saw mumra at Tue Sep  9 05:38:42 2014 UTC (23w 2d 16h 34m 12s ago) quitting, saying 'Ping timeout: 246 seconds'.
16:14:44 <|amethyst> for wrath, could just use a daction to turn some percent of all items everywhere to gold
16:15:01 <|amethyst> make it instant (well, when you enter the level), no duration
16:15:22 <|amethyst> if you get wrath twice, the daction fires twice
16:15:48 <dpeg> |amethyst: yes, that would work. The only bit that's missing is we don't tell players: "see, this from your desertion, you scoundrel!"
16:16:19 <wheals> you could do it like dpeg suggested in his mail, make it like mimics
16:16:42 <wheals> in fact, this is more or less your suggestion except also retroactively
16:16:46 <|amethyst> yeah, but mimics for inventory and shops would be a lot more complex
16:16:54 <gammafunk> uh oh, if mimics are involved, a certain fungus might hear of it...
16:16:58 <dpeg> |amethyst: I suggest not to touch inventory
16:17:13 <dpeg> gammafunk: and become displeased? :)
16:17:21 <gammafunk> dpeg: probably Pleased!
16:17:26 <|amethyst> dpeg:  I'm not sure that finding and picking up the best items before abandoning should be a thing
16:17:39 <gammafunk> he fought to have them remain in crawl in some form (their current form)
16:17:42 <|amethyst> dpeg:  but maybe it's not so bad
16:17:45 <dpeg> |amethyst: oh, it shouldn't -- absolutely.
16:17:54 <dpeg> That's why I restricted my proposal to new items only.
16:17:54 <wheals> so maybe no retroactive effect?
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16:18:30 <comebackshane> I see that the dev gears are grinding like a well-oiled machine
16:18:30 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host]
16:18:31 <|amethyst> hm
16:18:54 <comebackshane> I'm out, thanks for lending me your ear
16:19:03 <comebackshane> ears*
16:19:06 <dpeg> comebackshane: no problem
16:19:23 <dpeg> gammafunk: yes, I am very happy about it. That's why I mentioned my labyrinth portal entry mimics :)
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16:20:06 <gammafunk> dpeg: I lost a good HESu to my own stupidy recently, but I can only think how he'd still alive with good turns if that d:4 swamp entry wasn't a mimic...
16:20:22 <wheals> |amethyst: i was thinking about the vaults:$ thing again (though i think i will postpone it to after branch :P) -- maybe it's not necessary to use dgn.persist, instead just not running the code if is_validating()?
16:20:24 <|amethyst> dpeg:  ah, and you said all new items
16:20:39 <|amethyst> dpeg:  which sounds good---what about monster inventory
16:20:54 <wheals> gammafunk: D:4 sounds early for swamp, even for you
16:20:54 <|amethyst> dpeg:  I guess could be when they die
16:21:01 <gammafunk> er L:4
16:21:26 <gammafunk> and it turns out S was actually on L:6, which I never even got to
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16:22:39 <wheals> oh, but that would indeed have the restart_after_save issue
16:23:06 <wheals> unless all global lua variables get cleared then, i'm not really sure what the lifetime of these variables anyway
16:23:38 <dpeg> |amethyst: can treat monster inventory as new
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16:25:06 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: how did you wire up @??-name? I'm curious if it'd be useful for my own planned tweaks
16:25:35 <wheals> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=monster-trunk.git;a=commitdiff;h=fb8ca63c
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16:26:30 <wheals> you can also test make_name with the in-game lua console
16:27:21 <PleasingFungus> I'm planning, among other things, to do stress-tests iterating over every possible (scroll) name
16:27:30 <PleasingFungus> hm
16:27:54 <PleasingFungus> probably simplest to crudely hook it in to our test infrastructure, like the monster/spell validation stuff
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16:32:22 <gammafunk> |amethyst: have you seen that you have a new superfan?
16:32:31 <gammafunk> |amethyst: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15225
16:32:32 <minmay> !tell comebackshane here is a crawl tiles splash screen depicting the gears of DCSS development http://i.imgur.com/xybkcwu.png
16:32:33 <Sequell> minmay: OK, I'll let comebackshane know.
16:32:46 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  a new command line option
16:33:06 <PleasingFungus> probably, at least for testing
16:33:29 <PleasingFungus> also lol @ that twelwe post
16:33:35 <PleasingFungus> it's silly but also kinda sweet
16:33:51 <PleasingFungus> ...he went through and thanked all of the posts he linked, didn't he.
16:34:15 <|amethyst> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=monster-trunk.git;a=commitdiff;h=fb8ca63
16:34:20 <gammafunk> heh
16:34:38 <dpeg> PleasingFungus: no, these are all about |amethyst saving someone's password
16:34:58 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: o, ya, wheals linked that a minute ago
16:35:07 <PleasingFungus> I'm just thinking about how to implement the version I need
16:35:19 <PleasingFungus> dpeg: ya I know. I think you misread me?
16:35:34 <gammafunk> dpeg: yeah, twelwe went back to those posts where |amethyst did that, thanked them...
16:35:41 <dpeg> probably, thinking about a math review
16:35:42 <gammafunk> and then made a post saying "good job neil" at the end of ech
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16:36:19 <gammafunk> now if he starts sending flowers to |amethyst's work address I will become a bit concerned...
16:36:44 <|amethyst> I think he's campaigning for April 1 Pizza Tornado
16:36:51 <gammafunk> could be
16:37:01 <wheals> i fully support
16:37:13 <PleasingFungus> +1
16:37:32 <gammafunk> HULK was always one of those things from twelwe I really wanted to do on april 1st
16:39:52 <minmay> is that giaggostuono tile still around
16:39:53 <PleasingFungus> just you wait and see. april 1st is where all the commits I've been saving up will come out, to form...
16:39:56 <PleasingFungus> ...hexcrawl...
16:40:00 <minmay> (I can't believe I spelled that right on the first try)
16:40:06 <PleasingFungus> ??giaggostuono
16:40:07 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled giaggostuono in my learndb.
16:40:08 <PleasingFungus> :(
16:40:26 <minmay> ??good names[14]
16:40:27 <Sequell> good names[14/29]: <instar> _You see here a scroll labeled THE GIAGGOSTUONO.
16:40:51 <PleasingFungus> 29...!?
16:41:06 <PleasingFungus> also |amethyst or someone was talking about that name earlier. didn't know there was a sprite, tho
16:41:23 <|amethyst> !learn add the_giaggostuono[2] do {!source rltiles/UNUSED/monster/giaggostuono.png}
16:41:24 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[2/2]: do {!source rltiles/UNUSED/monster/giaggostuono.png}
16:41:35 <|amethyst> ??the giaggostuono[2]
16:41:36 <Sequell> Can't find rltiles/UNUSED/monster/giaggostuono.png.
16:41:39 <PleasingFungus> noo
16:42:07 <minmay> it is there
16:42:21 <|amethyst> yeah, source just doesn't work
16:42:26 <minmay> i feel bad that i made someone put actual effort into drawing that thing lol
16:42:38 <gammafunk> oh so that's where that came from!
16:42:41 <gammafunk> I had always wondered
16:42:55 <PleasingFungus> it's great, tho.
16:43:08 <PleasingFungus> pruning
16:43:13 <PleasingFungus> ??good_names[17
16:43:14 <Sequell> good names[17/29]: <kast> V - a scroll labeled ZEERUMPY RYCK
16:43:18 <PleasingFungus> is there a funny joke I'm missing here
16:43:27 <gammafunk> hrm, I should just add then into the tileset for tile_player_tile
16:43:33 <gammafunk> *add that
16:43:52 <PleasingFungus> ahh,    http://www.cowmuffins.net/stuff/THEGIAGGOSTUONO.png
16:43:54 <minmay> if there is I am also missing it
16:43:58 <PleasingFungus> ??the giaggostuono
16:43:59 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[1/2]: http://www.cowmuffins.net/stuff/THEGIAGGOSTUONO.png
16:44:01 <PleasingFungus> good
16:44:09 <PleasingFungus> !learn del good_names[17
16:44:10 <Sequell> Deleted good names[17/29]: <kast> V - a scroll labeled ZEERUMPY RYCK
16:44:11 <MarvinPA> hmm am i missing something or is ambrosia better the faster you are
16:44:40 <PleasingFungus> er
16:44:42 <PleasingFungus> hm
16:44:45 <|amethyst> !learn s the_giaggstuono[2] http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:44:46 <Sequell> the giaggstuono[1/1]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:44:48 <minmay> everything in crawl is better the faster you are, really
16:44:51 <MarvinPA> it doesn't appear to depend on delay anywhere for the healing
16:44:51 <|amethyst> err
16:44:57 <|amethyst> ??the giaggostuono
16:44:57 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[1/2]: http://www.cowmuffins.net/stuff/THEGIAGGOSTUONO.png
16:44:59 <PleasingFungus> yeah but it's weird because it's supposed to scale off turns of confusion
16:44:59 <|amethyst> ??the giaggostuono[2]
16:45:00 <Sequell> Can't find rltiles/UNUSED/monster/giaggostuono.png.
16:45:02 <PleasingFungus> basically
16:45:11 <PleasingFungus> (longer confusion = more healing/mp)
16:45:13 <|amethyst> !learn add the_giaggstuono[2] http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:14 <Sequell> the giaggstuono[2/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:19 <|amethyst> oh
16:45:24 <|amethyst> !learn del the_giaggstuono
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16:45:25 <Sequell> the_giaggstuono has 2 entries, you can only delete one at a time.
16:45:26 <|amethyst> !learn del the_giaggstuono[1]
16:45:27 <Sequell> Deleted the giaggstuono[1/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:27 <|amethyst> !learn del the_giaggstuono[2]
16:45:28 <Sequell> the_giaggstuono has only 1 entry.
16:45:30 <|amethyst> !learn del the_giaggstuono[1]
16:45:31 <Sequell> Deleted the giaggstuono[1/1]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:39 <|amethyst> !learn s the_giaggostuono[2] http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:40 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[2/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:44 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: right but it confuses you for the same duration as the ambrosia duration
16:45:44 <|amethyst> ??the giaggostuono[2]
16:45:45 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[2/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
16:45:52 <MarvinPA> and then you heal every action until they both expire
16:45:57 <MarvinPA> regardless of the speed of that action
16:45:59 <gammafunk> oh, it's gone in trunk?
16:46:12 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: ya
16:46:24 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  no, but in case it gets removed or used in trunk, I figure it's better to link to a specific version
16:46:27 <MarvinPA> so that's kinda bad
16:46:29 <PleasingFungus> that is not something I'd thought about it before but I saw the problem once you mentioned it
16:46:29 <gammafunk> ok
16:46:30 <PleasingFungus> ya
16:46:32 <|amethyst> s/version/branch/
16:46:40 <MarvinPA> i guess it just needs to scale the healing amount by delay
16:46:48 <gammafunk> minmay: do you care if I add it to the tileset?
16:47:02 <gammafunk> I promise to make no actual monster for it, since I'm sure you'd not like that
16:47:07 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  that does make faster healing tend more towards the mean
16:47:10 <PleasingFungus> !learn del good_names[13
16:47:11 <Sequell> Deleted good names[13/28]: Sif Muna's Arcane Secrets of Secret Knowledge {god gift}
16:47:38 <minmay> gammafunk: I don't care, and also I'm pretty sure I don't have the right to tell you what to do with that tile in the first place
16:47:38 <MarvinPA> mm, yeah
16:47:47 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: I promise to make an actual monster for it, right after I finish the hydrataur (I think that's still on my todo somewhere?)
16:47:53 <gammafunk> dammit
16:47:59 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  could use a binomial scaled on the number of aut
16:48:06 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  but that would need number tuning
16:48:19 <minmay> could replace necromutation with giaggostuono form
16:48:41 <PleasingFungus> !
16:49:09 <PleasingFungus> this is the #change that crawl needs #giaggostuono2016
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17:06:41 <minmay> speaking of scaling does OOD monster generation really need all these magic breakpoints
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17:10:31 <TAS-2012v> how the #&%¤#¤%& can I encode ctrl+tab to pass to crawl.sendkeys?? :/
17:11:29 <TAS-2012v> ctrl+D macro records it as {-222} but sendkeys doens't take that
17:12:10 <TAS-2012v> or rather, string.char(-222) doesn't compute
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17:12:52 <|amethyst> does crawl.sendkeys(-222) work ?
17:13:18 <|amethyst> it looks like it is mode to take an integer or a string
17:13:19 <TAS-2012v> let me try that and hope I feel stupid :)
17:13:41 <|amethyst> also, probably the string way is broken for anything UTF-8
17:13:47 <|amethyst> anything non-ASCII that is
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17:20:27 <TAS-2012v> seems to work, thanks |amethyst
17:22:29 <geekosaur> be nice if it spoke the same escapes as macros... then again I usppose that would get us leaning toothpick syndrome
17:22:50 <|amethyst> geekosaur:  I think you can pass multiple arguments
17:23:00 <|amethyst> geekosaur:  so you can do  "foo bar", -222, "baz"
17:23:26 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.16-a0-4054-gcde8851: Properly handle UTF-8 in crawl.sendkeys() 10(73 seconds ago, 1 file, 6+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cde8851c7399
17:23:28 <|amethyst> !tag crawl_sendkeys
17:23:28 <|amethyst> !source crawl_sendkeys
17:23:28 <Sequell> 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/l_crawl.cc;hb=HEAD#l311
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17:27:02 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-4053-g5391420 (34)
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17:34:22 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.16-a0-4055-g979c649: THE GIAGGOSTUONO 10(43 minutes ago, 3 files, 9+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=979c649b1c00
17:35:27 <wheals> actual race implemented when??
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17:37:40 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  shouldn't you remove the copy from UNUSED?
17:37:48 <gammafunk> oh yeah guess so
17:38:06 <gammafunk> Oh I think I copied rather than movied the file, hence I forgot to do that
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17:38:13 <gammafunk> *moved
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17:38:58 <wheals> std::move<rltile>
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17:41:13 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.16-a0-4056-gee4db93: Remove a tile from rltiles/UNUSED now that it's in the player tileset 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ee4db934f0f6
17:41:37 <gammafunk> my entry for overly long commit title in 0.16
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17:43:27 <comebackshane> what in blazes is a giggastuano
17:43:27 <Sequell> comebackshane: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
17:43:35 <comebackshane> !messages
17:43:36 <Sequell> (1/1) minmay said (1h 11m 2s ago): here is a crawl tiles splash screen depicting the gears of DCSS development http://i.imgur.com/xybkcwu.png
17:43:57 <comebackshane> lol
17:45:55 <Bloax> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DcfXVL0mh0 i don't know
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17:48:48 <comebackshane> new player tiles are always nice
17:50:05 <gammafunk> ??giaggostuono
17:50:05 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled giaggostuono in my learndb.
17:50:14 <gammafunk> ??the_giaggostuono
17:50:15 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[1/2]: http://www.cowmuffins.net/stuff/THEGIAGGOSTUONO.png
17:50:22 <gammafunk> ??the_giaggostuono[2
17:50:22 <Sequell> the giaggostuono[2/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/giaggostuono.png;hb=stone_soup-0.15
17:50:28 <comebackshane> also thanks for the hint bloax
17:50:40 <gammafunk> that's not where it comes from though
17:50:52 <gammafunk> ?/giaggostuono
17:50:53 <Sequell> Matching terms (1): the_giaggostuono; entries (4): dieselteamideas[2] | good_names[13] | the_giaggostuono[1] | the_giaggostuono[2]
17:50:58 <gammafunk> ??good_names[13
17:50:58 <Sequell> good names[13/27]: <instar> _You see here a scroll labeled THE GIAGGOSTUONO.
17:51:19 <gammafunk> ??dieselteamideas[2
17:51:20 <Sequell> dieselteamideas[2/39]: Team Scrolls: MUUTATATOTOTS MOMMYXOMUHU THEGIAGGOSTUONO
17:54:26 <|amethyst> Muutatater-Tots  http://cookinghawaiianstyle.com/images/recipes/1363945952okinawan-sweet-potato-tots.jpg
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17:55:55 <gammafunk> available now, from the Spriggan Bakery
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17:57:26 <comebackshane> Is it made of baked Spriggan?
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18:00:30 <comebackshane> Quote from a friend who started playing like 2 days ago: Not many races are centered around shops and money (after I explained to him what Gozag did)
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18:14:59 <gammafunk> ??gell's_gravitas
18:14:59 <Sequell> gell's gravitas[1/1]: L5 Hex/Tloc in the books of the Warp and Hinderance, new for 0.16. Pulls creatures (excluding the caster) towards a target creature (including the caster!), smashing them into each other, like a one-turn {singularity} without the direct damage.
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18:21:01 <minmay> well I mean, not many races are centered around granite statues either
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18:24:11 <|amethyst> infinitely many times more races are centered around granite statues than shops :P
18:24:16 <|amethyst> 1/0
18:24:52 <_miek> negative infinity
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18:58:55 <gammafunk> |amethyst: that's not a very good use of a ratio; I don't think anyone would argue that 1 is many
19:01:55 <|amethyst> It's almost many!
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19:12:23 <chequers> if your counting sysstem goes 0, 1, many, I guess so
19:12:29 <chequers> |amethyst is a programmer after all
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21:04:56 <Cheibriados> gnoll shaman (16g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 13-26 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 40 | Sp: corona [11!AM], heal other (2d1) [11!AM], haste other [11!AM], minor healing (2d1) [11!AM, 04emergency] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

21:04:56 <chequers> %??gnoll shaman
21:05:02 <chequers> why are all these abilities !AM?
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21:06:03 <|amethyst> because it's a divine caster
21:11:53 <chequers> that makes sense lore-wise, but it's also a caster that appears on d:3
21:12:22 <chequers> isn't it too early to start with that sort of exception?
21:15:48 <|amethyst> orc priest
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21:16:35 <_miek> I'm surprised shaman is considered divine
21:16:45 <|amethyst> yeah, it's arguable
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21:23:02 <Cheibriados> orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 10-20 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 41 | Sp: pain (d8) [11!AM], cantrip [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d1) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

21:23:02 <chequers> %??orc priest
21:23:39 <nicolae-> more like dork priest
21:24:39 <chequers> nerdolae
21:25:20 <nicolae-> there's no way i can deny that
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21:40:06 <minmay> even after all these years I still find I intuitively expect antimagic to work on priests
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21:51:45 <bh> !seen lasty
21:51:45 <Sequell> I last saw Lasty at Fri Feb 20 00:02:09 2015 UTC (3h 49m 36s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Leaving.'.
21:54:17 <Cheibriados> Brimstone Fiend (041) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 78-115 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Dam: 25, 15, 15 | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 12drown, 08holy++ | XP: 3321 | Sp: hellfire (3d20) [06!sil], s.torment [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: high.

21:54:17 <Bloax> %??brimstone fiend
21:54:31 <Bloax> well intuitively it should work on everything that has spells
21:54:41 <Bloax> since it already works on the strongest spellcasters in the game
21:54:53 <Bloax> but select special snowflakes get to ignore it and you'd never know
21:55:03 <|amethyst> It works on everything that says "spells" in xv
21:55:15 <|amethyst> and "demonic abilities" and "angelic abilities"
21:55:34 <|amethyst> and "magical abilities"
21:55:55 <|amethyst> the list of the meanings of ability/spell types is in the manual
21:55:58 <_miek> I think its actually cheibriados thats in the wrong listing abilities as spells
21:56:44 <|amethyst> hey, they're listed as "Sp", not "Spells"
21:56:50 <|amethyst> could be "Special"
21:57:32 <Bloax> who's up for some fun trivia
21:57:45 <|amethyst> in fact, there are a few things that Chei can list there that aren't spells in the Crawl implementation sense or the in-game sense
21:58:06 <|amethyst> also, Gretell is more up-to-date currently
21:58:10 <|amethyst> @??shard shrike
21:58:10 <Gretell> shard shrike (12b) | Spd: 30 | HD: 21 | HP: 87-121 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 2112(cold:21-62) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold++, 08blind | XP: 5345 | Sp: throw icicle (3d30) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
21:58:15 <nicolae-> trivia, huh
21:58:17 <nicolae-> sure, i'll bite
21:58:29 <Bloax> how much of an effect does raising weapon skill 4->9 and fighting 2->9 have on a base 11 weapon at 21 str
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21:58:56 <|amethyst> that's more of a word problem than trivia
21:59:13 <Bloax> well it's silly information that has no real use
21:59:37 <Bloax> the effect is that it moves the 75th percentile up by two
21:59:54 <Bloax> two glorious points of damage
22:00:16 <Bloax> more at 6
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22:03:56 <|amethyst> sounds about right... on average + 7/60 for 7 points of fighting, + 5/50 for 5 points of weapon skill, and 11 * (7/60 + 5/50) = 2.38
22:06:04 <|amethyst> 2.5 if you take into account that they're both multiplicative (but still ignore rounding)
22:06:09 <|amethyst> 11 * 67/60 * 55/50
22:06:11 <|amethyst> - 11
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22:06:28 <|amethyst> I guess I didn't take str into account either
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22:06:52 <|amethyst> and you're looking at 50th percentile rather than mean so the numbers wouldn't be quite the same
22:06:57 <|amethyst> er\
22:06:59 <|amethyst> 75th
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22:07:31 <chequers> <+|amethyst> It works on everything that says "spells" in xv <-- I mean, I get this, I just think the distinction is a really complex corner of the game and should probably be punted further down the dungeon
22:07:52 <|amethyst> antimagic is only an early-game thing for one race
22:08:32 <|amethyst> and in order to punt it further down the dungeon, you have to decide what to do with orc priests
22:08:48 <Bloax> god damn
22:09:04 <Bloax> short blades would be killer if they had twice the normal benefits from weapon skill
22:09:07 <Bloax> (and fighting)
22:09:24 <chequers> what's wrong with making orc priests cast spells?
22:10:02 <|amethyst> chequers:  oh, you mean making priests in general susceptible to antimagic
22:10:26 <|amethyst> chequers:  what about things with nonmagical breath?
22:10:54 <Bloax> http://anydice.com/program/54e3 vs. http://anydice.com/program/54e4 (the latter has doubled skill bonuses)
22:10:56 <|amethyst> steam dragon as an example
22:11:03 <|amethyst> s/example/early example/
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22:31:57 <gammafunk> ??0.16_plan
22:31:57 <Sequell> 0.16 plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.16_plans
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22:38:17 <gammafunk> !tell PleasingFungus The sleeper has awoken! https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15229
22:38:18 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know.
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22:53:57 <chequers> |amethyst: if I was Dictator of Crawl I'd just remove the different categories entirely. Lore could easily accomodate dragon breaths requiring magical energy, and divine intervetion requiring a magical conduit from the caster. They could all be affected by antimagic
22:54:19 <chequers> (I feel similarly about silence -- the demonic exception is weird. Though it's harder to rebalance that)
22:58:19 <elliptic> chequers: there are various non-demons that aren't affected by silence either, and some of them would be even larger balance issues if they were (e.g. orb of fire)
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23:22:13 <minmay> have I suggested removing silence yet
23:23:25 <Bloax> removing the spell that trivializes most of the most dangerous casters in the game?
23:23:27 <Bloax> unthinkable
23:23:51 <minmay> i still dont think silence is really an especially useful spell
23:25:44 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.16-a0-4056-gee4db93 (34)
23:29:36 <Bloax> it's pretty good if you have a lot of excess experience as a melee character (you do) and want to kill tomb/elf with less hassle
23:29:49 <Bloax> the latter of which will be utterly harmless
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23:31:37 <minmay> |amethyst: you know antimagic affected nonmagical breath for a fair amount of time, right?
23:32:16 <|amethyst> some of them, inconsistently
23:34:20 <minmay> huh, I don't remember it only being some of them
23:34:34 <minmay> perhaps I should shut up then
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23:52:58 <simmarine> can mummies actually feel nauseous
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23:55:15 <Bloax> Maybe back when potion petition could give you poison, yes.
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