00:01:38 elliptic: I guess I don't understand, do you mean that it would spit out jellies *when* it was polied? 00:01:55 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:02:10 I assumed the plan was that it would just spit out jellies when hit even after polymorphed 00:04:31 -!- caricature has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:11:05 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3998-g78f890e (34) 00:12:45 gammafunk: either way is fine with me, both were suggested 00:13:20 gammafunk: I have a slight preference for just spitting out jellies when hit even after polymorphed too 00:14:23 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:14:52 elliptic: yeah that makes more sense to me 00:15:09 since, how many J do you spit out upon polymorph? "all of them"? 00:15:22 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:42 all, half, something 00:16:19 yeah, it'd have to be a ton for it to matter very much, and it seems kind of weird that way, so I prefer just having the mechanic work the same after polymorph 00:16:31 I'll make a follow-up commit tomorrow I guess 00:17:14 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:17:38 gammafunk: making the polymorphed TRJ spit out copies of itself rather than jellies was also suggested btw... it is sort of crazy and likely a bad idea for some reason but you could try it out if you wanted :P 00:18:00 e.g. titan-shoped TRJ makes titans 00:18:08 that sounds hilarious 00:18:09 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:10 elliptic: yes, but this does turn trj poly into some kind of eternal mistake... 00:18:16 if you get e.g. shard shrike 00:18:21 yes that's why it is likely a bad idea 00:18:38 though you could scale the number of copies made by HD or some such maybe 00:18:58 the footv potential is strong with that idea, though 00:20:10 precisely! 00:21:16 apology for not keeping up with things, but is poly-trj getting out of control? 00:21:51 they're just trying to nerf my wins 00:21:58 heh 00:22:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:22:10 I've done it a couple times. took like 20-30 zaps at evo 12 or so 00:22:57 making him spit out jellies on failed poly kinda feels harsh 00:23:48 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:07 johnstein: yeah, failed poly doing anything at all is just weird IMO 00:24:32 royal jelly (08J) | Spd: 14 | HD: 21 | HP: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Dam: 5008(acid:7d3), 3008(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(180), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | Vul: 11silver | XP: 14176 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 00:24:32 %??the royal jelly 00:24:43 oh. looks like MR went down 00:24:57 thought it used to be 200. man I'm really out of the loop 00:25:18 royal jelly (08J) | Spd: 14 | HD: 21 | HP: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Dam: 5008(acid:7d3), 3008(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(196), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 14176 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 00:25:18 %0.13?the royal jelly 00:25:26 royal jelly (08J) | Spd: 14 | HD: 21 | HP: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Dam: 5008(acid:7d3), 3008(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(196), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 14176 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 00:25:26 %0.14?the royal jelly 00:25:32 I guess it did, yeah 00:25:37 didn't even realize 00:25:40 probably a chris patch 00:25:43 to standardize mr numbers 00:25:46 yeah 00:26:13 anyway that combined with ?vuln being much safer and long-lasting 00:26:16 couldn't you increase the MR to discourage it more? or is that not really good since it just means you gotta spam 4 wands so doing an immediate beat down on the failed poly will disabuse players from trying it anymore 00:26:18 hmm 00:26:23 -!- Cerpin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:48 it's an interesting situation 00:27:00 johnstein: well, making TRJ magic immune is an option 00:27:16 ??wand power 00:27:16 wand power[1/1]: 15 + 2.5 * Evocations 00:27:24 ancient lich (16L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 27 | HP: 90-129 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Dam: 2013(drain) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 7450 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, sum.greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self [04emergency] / b.corrosive (3d28), slow, invisibility, throw icicle (3d37), crystal spear (3d48) / b.fire (3d37), confuse, haste, b.draining (3d33), sum.greater demon, banishment [04emergency] / mystic blast (3d30), b.cold (3d37), invisibility, animate dead, o.destruction (9d20) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:27:24 %??ancient_lich 00:27:34 is it weird that those are mr-immune 00:27:34 I thought it was kind of a fun way to kill him 00:27:55 I'm not sure what our criterion for mr-immune should be, really 00:28:11 but I'm probably just confusing "fun" with "good game design" again 00:28:22 I get "things that are the major, sole guardian of extended runes" 00:29:02 yea. seems like Magic Immune would be a cleaner way to prevent it. or just jack up the MR 00:29:05 hmmm 00:29:16 johnstein: well, my issue with it is that it bypasses the only special thing about one of the more unique monsters in the game 00:29:20 yes 00:29:42 it's not hexes per se, it's about how poly changes the monster's unique behavior 00:30:28 elliptic: yea. but you can already bypass part of the effect from scroll of summoning and fighting in the corridor, right? 00:30:40 but I guess the key word is 'part' 00:30:44 hmmm 00:30:44 right 00:30:51 johnstein: yeah 00:31:05 elliptic: on a related note, what do you think about trj spawns being actual summons with suitably long but not permanent duration? 00:31:07 is the failed poly a guaranteed jelly? 00:31:37 a lot of people complain how the mopup is more of an annoyance if you managed to escape already 00:31:38 johnstein: nobody here wants failed polys to do anything afaik 00:31:48 elliptic: ah ok. ty 00:32:04 gammafunk: as long as they don't disappear when TRJ dies, that sounds okay 00:32:05 elliptic: well I think that's what PF's commit just did 00:32:16 gammafunk: right but he's not here :P 00:32:53 and |amethyst also seemed surprised that the jellies were happening on failed poly rather than successful poly 00:33:37 just make a failed poly zap have a chance to do a poly miscast on the player. that seems like a different kind of bad idea though 00:33:40 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:54 that doesn't make much sense at all, the miscast idea 00:33:57 like there's no need to penalize failing to poly... you already wasted a turn 00:34:03 I should probably not brainstorm crawl stuff after a 60 hour week 00:34:57 hrm 00:35:01 acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 78-115 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(160), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 2419 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: plant. 00:35:01 %??acid_blob 00:35:07 unknown monster: "shard_shrike" 00:35:07 %??shard_shrike 00:35:16 titan (06C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 91-130 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Dam: 55 | 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(180), 10elec++, 12drown | XP: 2592 | Sp: b.lightning (3d24), minor healing (2d10), airstrike (0-50) | Sz: Giant | Int: high. 00:35:16 %??titan 00:35:17 titan (06C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 91-130 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Dam: 55 | 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(180), 10elec++, 12drown | XP: 2592 | Sp: b.lightning (3d24), minor healing (2d10), airstrike (0-50) | Sz: Giant | Int: high. 00:35:17 %??titan 00:35:34 I guess it would indeed make fewer if you used hd to scale 00:35:46 but still very very problematic 00:35:55 golden dragon (08D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 90-123 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 40, 2009(claw), 2007(trample) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(180), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 4178 | Sp: b.fire (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], b.cold (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], poisonous cloud (3d11) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:35:55 %??golden_dragon 00:36:29 death ooze (06J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 11 | HP: 43-58 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Dam: 3204(rot), 32 | 07undead, 04eats items, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 02cold, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1091 | Sz: little | Int: plant. 00:36:29 %??death ooze 00:36:44 azure jelly (12J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 15 | HP: 65-102 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Dam: 1212(cold:15-44), 1212(cold:15-44), 12, 12 | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | Vul: 04fire | XP: 1889 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 00:36:44 %??azure jelly 00:36:50 those are lower HD 00:37:58 royal jelly (08J) | Spd: 14 | HD: 21 | HP: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Dam: 5008(acid:7d3), 3008(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible | Res: 06magic(180), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 08blind, 12drown | Vul: 11silver | XP: 14176 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 00:37:58 %??the royal jelly 00:39:49 instead of scaling with HD, could be simple and just have half as many shard shrike/titan/golden dragon spawns if TRJ is polyed or something like that 00:40:01 (still not saying this is a great idea) 00:40:29 I was vaguely considering making it choose similar range of hd spawns within genus instead of within-species (probably an even worse idea) 00:40:55 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:11 -!- inspector071 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:06 bennu /caustic shrikes / shard shrikes, titan / fire giant / frost giant, golden dragon / iron dragon / storm dragon / shadow dragon, or something, but there are probably more things it can poly to that I'm not aware of 00:43:02 and that's not even genus, what I said. It's just "glyph", which is terrible 00:49:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:52:29 -!- Kalir is now known as GiantOwl 00:52:48 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:11 -!- rophy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:18 so if a character crashes whenever it would die 00:59:24 would KILLED_BY_WINNING also result in a crash 01:00:42 well, if said character was concerned, it could save before trying to win 01:00:58 &watch agentgt 01:00:59 ^watch agentgt 01:00:59 Watch agentgt at: http://crawl.berotato.org:8080/#watch-agentgt 01:00:59 that way it won't have to redo anything other than < 01:01:03 he's in z:5 now 01:07:30 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:07:47 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:10:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:11 -!- kroki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:12:28 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:17 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 01:16:18 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:02 -!- marsbars has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:22:03 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:42 -!- Umbreoni is now known as FaMott 01:27:25 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:57 -!- rgould has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:29:44 -!- rgould has quit [Changing host] 01:30:08 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 01:31:17 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:47 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 01:31:59 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:28 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:35:13 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:36:15 -!- markgo` has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:56 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:43:10 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 01:43:39 -!- rgould has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:05 -!- rockit has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:47:18 -!- rockit_ is now known as rockit 01:47:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:50:32 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:19 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:57:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:59:49 -!- foophykins has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:40 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:20 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:13:26 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:14:08 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:37 -!- heteroy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:47 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3998-g78f890e (34) 02:26:09 -!- halberd has quit [Changing host] 02:27:51 -!- TR_Muscateer has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:57 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:33:25 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34:35 -!- Monkaria_ has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:10 -!- Monkaria has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:36:21 -!- Monkaria_ has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:22 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:44 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:52 -!- rgould has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:54:11 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 03:02:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12:26 -!- titanjones has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:16:08 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:16:51 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:26:48 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:27:28 -!- Kramin42 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:42 -!- pyre has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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Use !messages to read it. 08:11:40 Lasty_: OK, I'll let gammafunk know. 08:12:07 !tell |amethyst That video is amazing. We should probably direct people to that instead of crawl. 08:12:08 Lasty_: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 08:12:13 !messages 08:12:13 (1/1) ChrisOelmueller said (5h 18m 5s ago): you should try pressing `p` on a beogh altar as non-orc sometime 08:12:33 !learn add lasty_to_do 08:12:34 Syntax is: !learn add TERM TEXT or !learn add TERM[n] TEXT 08:12:40 !learn add lasty_to_do you should try pressing `p` on a beogh altar as non-orc sometime 08:12:40 lasty to do[12/12]: you should try pressing `p` on a beogh altar as non-orc sometime 08:13:09 !tell ChrisOelmueller I'm guessing it displays the sac love message? Oops. Added to my to-do list. Thanks! 08:13:09 Lasty_: OK, I'll let chrisoelmueller know. 08:13:28 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:25:40 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27:31 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:47 -!- debo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:30:49 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:53 -!- debo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:40 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:37:19 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:46:09 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:26 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:29 -!- ldierk has quit [Changing host] 08:48:30 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:55:23 -!- Alarkh has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:55:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58:54 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:40 -!- MDvedh has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:05:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:09:07 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:45 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:13:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:17:19 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:19 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 09:18:51 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:12 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:33 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:50 -!- Evablue has quit [Quit: Evablue] 09:37:53 -!- ystael_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:33 -!- rgould has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:47 -!- siepu has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:31 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:46 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:00 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:51 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:17 -!- radinms has quit [] 10:04:05 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:39 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:21:42 -!- keszocze has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:29:10 -!- debo_ is now known as debo 10:31:05 -!- shane_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:33:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:43:37 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:44:27 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:54:22 -!- Poncheis has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805]] 10:58:44 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:11 -!- rgould has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:04:54 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:05 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:15:36 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:58 Beogh can only feel hate for you! 11:16:11 03wheals02 07* 0.16-a0-3999-gbb9a389: Hopefully fix the remaining butchering issues (elliptic). 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 27+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bb9a3899a804 11:16:11 03wheals02 07* 0.16-a0-4000-gfe6324d: Presumably unbreak Android compilation. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fe6324dfc6af 11:16:54 crap, need to go now 11:16:57 -!- wheals has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:05 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3998-g78f890e (34) 11:41:06 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:23 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:46 elliptic: i guess that probably pinged you but anyway, i think i fixed all the problems you brought up 11:54:16 -!- domiryuu has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:54:37 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:52 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 12:00:04 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:44 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:42 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:16:29 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:11 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:22 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:23 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:31 !tell Pleasingfungus i don't think gozag is ready for 0.16 after the proposed wrath changes, i would still either remove duplication or give it a highish gold cost and not let it work on stacks 12:24:32 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 12:25:05 !tell Pleasingfungus i got the feeling there was opposition to this so i haven't done any work on it really 12:25:05 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 12:26:49 -!- simmarine_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:12 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:38 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:25 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:34 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:33:37 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:46:04 -!- Alarkh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:23 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:33 http://sprunge.us/KPiT any thoughts on these for magic immunity removal? with completely arbitrary new MR numbers 12:53:04 hydra (09D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 58-86 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 976 | Sz: Big | Int: reptile. 12:53:04 %??hydra 12:53:41 angel (16A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 12 | HP: 85-118 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 25, 10 | 08holy, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(120), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 1566 | Sp: minor healing (2d6) [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 12:53:41 %??angel 12:53:42 unborn got immunity so that all Ls have it (not sure that is necessarily good), was also considering having seraphs and mennas lose immunity 12:55:07 didnt know reapers were immune 12:55:28 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: goes further than I was thinking, I would have kept eye magimmune to distinguish it more from J 12:55:29 |amethyst: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:55:32 notable stuff that still has it after that patch is curse skulls/toes, all Ls, all 1s except executioner 12:55:43 because of the context chosen by that diff, I kept saying to myself "why is he making merged slime creatures MR immune?!" over and over again 12:55:46 and then I realized 12:55:48 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:01 -!- heteroy_ is now known as heteroy 12:56:08 slime creature (03J) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 245-365 | AC/EV: 1/4 | Dam: 22 | amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 839 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 12:56:08 %??titanic slime creature 12:56:19 or actually it was "merged slime creatures were MR immune?!" 12:56:35 if you banish a titanic slime creature and find it in abyss will it stay merged when you arrive in abyss, or will it have split 12:56:56 can you even land in abyss with los of banished things 12:57:05 they always seem to be "around the corner" 12:57:20 hmm, i guess the Gs could keep it, should giant eyeballs and orange brains gain immunity in that case? 12:57:25 I believe it will be merged when it's placed in the abyss 12:57:41 <|amethyst> I imagine it will be placed as merged, then will most likely split on its next turn, depending on where it landed 12:57:56 I'm personally ok with them having finite MR 12:58:19 doesn't seem that they should be different than J in that respect 12:58:22 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: I think either way is fine, as long as they are consistent 12:59:13 -!- surrr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:59:14 <|amethyst> I guess eye of draining could keep MR since antimagic is its thing 12:59:14 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 12:59:18 <|amethyst> or not 13:00:10 well we have things like golden eyes not being sinv, ghost moths being invis and can't sinv 13:00:40 eye of draining (15G) | Spd: 5 | HD: 7 | HP: 29-50 | AC/EV: 3/1 | see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx, 12drown | XP: 124 | Sp: draining gaze [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 13:00:40 %??eye_of_draining 13:00:57 great orb of eyes (09G) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 53-81 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Dam: 20 | see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | XP: 1023 | Sp: paralyse [06!sil], disintegrate (d44) [06!sil], drain magic [06!sil], confuse [06!sil], teleport other [06!sil, 04emergency] | Sz: Large | Int: high. 13:00:57 %??great_orb_of_eyes 13:01:08 well he's also removing mana viper immunity which are antimagic themed 13:01:11 sinv is a whole new kettle of fish :P 13:01:16 yes 13:01:28 <|amethyst> hm 13:01:42 it's kind of a gameplay concern in the case of golden eyes, since it's one of the few ways to counter them 13:01:44 <|amethyst> I guess burning bush isn't zotdef anymore 13:01:55 plant (03P) | Spd: 070 | HD: 10 | HP: 43-68 | AC/EV: 10/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 0 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 13:01:55 %??plant 13:02:04 bush (07P) | Spd: 070 | HD: 20 | HP: 88-128 | AC/EV: 15/0 | 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0 | Sz: Big | Int: plant. 13:02:04 %??bush 13:02:06 and yeah, i did consider that for mana vipers, it could go either way i think but i like the glyph consistency where reasonable 13:02:10 but the MR-discrepency! 13:02:20 oklob plant (09P) | Spd: 10 (07stationary) | HD: 10 | HP: 43-67 | AC/EV: 10/0 | 03plant | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison, 08acid+++, 12drown, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 554 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: plant. 13:02:20 %??oklob plant 13:02:25 <|amethyst> it's a little weird for bushes to be magimmune but burning bushes not; but I guess that's no different from plants vs oklobs 13:02:25 heh, wow 13:02:31 I had noidea you could hex oklobs 13:02:32 that was my logic there too yeah 13:02:51 that the non-firewood plants could be mr-vulnerable 13:02:54 man that's probably a lot of loot I missed out on 13:03:09 i don't know what hexes actually work on them 13:03:12 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: so the earliest thing left with MR is liches? 13:03:19 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: err, left with magic-immunity 13:03:25 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: ignoring firewood 13:03:33 insubstantial wisps, maybe 13:03:48 yeah, any nonliving you might run into in a portal 13:03:54 toenail golem (058) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 52-66 | AC/EV: 8/5 | Dam: 13 | 11non-living, 10doors | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 476 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 13:03:54 %??toenail_golem 13:03:54 <|amethyst> oh, right, elementals 13:03:57 but liches are the earliest notable one probably 13:03:57 <|amethyst> and those 13:04:10 <|amethyst> yeah, seems fine then 13:04:32 <|amethyst> I was going to complain about there being nothing early to expose players to the mechanic, but forgot all the constructs 13:05:25 well it's only technically true that the player is not exposed to it 13:05:32 any thoughts on seraphs/mennas? i think maybe could use the same logic as greater nagas/mummies there and just give them both high but finite MR 13:05:39 things become very difficult to hex with finite mr 13:05:54 that does seem reasonable 13:05:57 Mara (13R) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Dam: 30 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140), 05fire++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4614 | Sp: blink [11!AM, 06!sil], b.fire (3d27) [06!sil], mara summon [06!sil], sum.illusion [06!sil], pain (d17) [06!sil], teleport self [06!sil, 04emergency] | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 13:05:57 %??mara 13:06:31 I guess you could argue for MR-immune seraph, since it guards a rune? 13:06:43 I forget if we were going for mr-immune rune guardians in extended 13:07:06 most are (except cerebov (except i gave him it in a separate commit)) 13:07:17 so i guess the seraph could be too, yeah 13:07:34 technically doesn't always guard the rune, I guess 13:07:40 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:07:44 although yeah it's more like a random pan lord i suppose 13:08:01 yeah but I'm fine either way. Maybe Grunt will object though! 13:08:02 <|amethyst> hm 13:08:15 <|amethyst> magic immunity does affect slightly more than resistable hexes 13:08:21 <|amethyst> not seeing anything important so far, though 13:08:28 <|amethyst> crusade card 13:08:32 I removed the confusion-immune part a while back 13:08:41 which was a major concern 13:09:03 <|amethyst> immolation doesn't normally check MR, right? 13:09:16 no, only the player spell 13:09:25 <|amethyst> it does check magic-immune 13:09:29 <|amethyst> which is good, because plants 13:09:33 hrm, oh right 13:09:39 well 13:09:40 <|amethyst> (also crawling corpses, when those actually existed) 13:09:48 honestly plants aren't a problem 13:10:03 wrt immolation 13:10:34 <|amethyst> and it looks like chaos poly cares about magic-immune 13:10:34 startscum for dpeg_entry_water_fire and kite antaeus there to kill him with immolation 13:10:38 the secretest of techs 13:10:43 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:10:44 (does that vault even still exist?) 13:10:47 <|amethyst> what was that commit... 13:10:52 those dang exploitable dpeg entries... 13:11:05 <|amethyst> %git 9b43b2de28 13:11:05 07|amethyst02 * 0.10-a0-3004-g9b43b2d: Do not give TSO piety for seeing no-XP monsters. 10(3 years, 2 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9b43b2de285a 13:11:18 <|amethyst> !vault roderic_crop_circles_entry_large 13:11:18 heh, nice 13:11:19 Can't find roderic_crop_circles_entry_large. 13:11:28 <|amethyst> !vault roderic_crop_circles_arrival_large 13:11:28 1/1. http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/arrival/large.des;hb=HEAD#l838 13:11:30 ah yeah i remember that one 13:12:09 <|amethyst> Mennas salutes the plant. "Carry on, then." 13:13:53 ...vault reminding me that the next one down kept screwing with my head due to LOS changes 13:14:13 <|amethyst> (FR: holypan get a real rune, and a boss unique Gideon) 13:14:21 <|amethyst> s/a real/its own/ 13:14:27 <|amethyst> err 13:14:30 <|amethyst> s/Gideon/Gabriel/ 13:14:51 Azriel 13:14:57 then we have Azrael and Azriel 13:15:08 <|amethyst> Gargamel 13:15:21 holy vault where you have to survive an onslaught that's less dangerous as you kill less monsters 13:15:29 only true pacifists can survive 13:15:48 so the vault has tonberries 13:16:02 <|amethyst> "We've saved the corpse of every monster you killed, and stitched them all together" 13:16:35 st_: ah, was going to ask, but I see that they first occurred in FF5 13:16:43 hence I'd never seen them 13:20:15 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:21 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 13:27:03 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Quit: Excess flood] 13:27:29 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:27:52 Technically, Tonberries didn't have Everyone's Grudge/Karma in FF5; that first appeared in FF7 :p 13:27:57 -!- mp[crawl] is now known as magicpoints 13:33:29 wheals: thanks! will let you know whether I (or qw) notice any more issues 13:34:10 re other misc backlog stuff: scrolls that are depth-gated currently are vuln, acq, summoning, silence, brand weapon, torment, holy word 13:34:23 d:1 acq??? 13:34:47 i feel like that one is actually noticable yeah 13:34:47 imo just allowing all those to spawn on d:1-3 is probably fine? maybe this is getting to be stuff that should wait for 0.17 though 13:34:58 i strongly support D:1 scroll of torment though 13:35:03 also potions of poison and berserk rage are depth-limited 13:35:12 huh really 13:35:29 they don't appear on d:1 and d:2 respectively 13:35:55 heh, yeah, limiting !berserk really doesn't make sense at all 13:35:59 maybe I'm missing something 13:36:06 <|amethyst> it's for monsters 13:36:07 // Too dangerous on monsters early on 13:36:10 ah 13:36:21 they can get amulets of rage nowadays though, so shrug 13:36:24 right 13:36:32 and horrible branded weapons 13:37:01 -!- rgould has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:02 I suppose berserk actually has a pretty high weight though? 13:37:16 wands are also depth-gated 13:37:24 35, same as invis/flight/magic/mutation 13:38:47 d:1 wands of fire/cold really are kinda brutal, so i dunno what to do there 13:38:56 I guess it is true that the player would be unlikely to survive a zerked goblin, even 13:39:06 on d:1 I mean 13:39:26 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: we already prevent low-HD creatures from being generated with them, just not floor spawns 13:39:39 oh 13:39:43 never mind! 13:40:00 <|amethyst> (or do we prevent the floor spawns too?) 13:40:31 we do, if item_level < 2 13:40:36 <|amethyst> ah 13:41:30 i think scrolls are definitely safe to remove the depth limits on but wands and !rage probably require some thought, anyway 13:54:18 -!- rgould has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:20 -!- ghostmoth has quit [Quit: ghostmoth] 13:55:28 I suppose we need to consider what's a "reasonable" threat on D1. Fast monsters can't be escaped by most characters, but we're okay with jackals and giant newts and the occasional OOD adder (right?), so presumably part of the criterion is that we don't want monsters being inescabable and also hitting hard (berserk). We also don't want them hitting hard at full LOS range (wands of bolt, rods?). 13:55:54 But is !haste okay? D1 gnolls could get them, or hogoblins that also have branded weapons. 13:59:03 In general I'm in favor of allowing everything to spawn without depth restriction, but it does seem like berserk or /bolt is a bit much. I suppose to prevent soft-ID tricks, any item class that contains something we don't want on D1 could be restricted -- all wands, amulets, and potions. 13:59:21 Or maybe that's excessive. :p 13:59:23 <|amethyst> err 13:59:24 <|amethyst> yeah 13:59:43 <|amethyst> I don't think denying D:1 players !curing is a good response to "players can tell these items aren't !berserk" 14:00:07 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:00:21 I suppose another approach would be to prevent monsters from picking up items on D:1 14:00:59 <|amethyst> Is soft-ID really that much of a problem? 14:01:16 Since they can only pick up items you haven't seen yet anyway, it wouldn't be particularly noticeable for players, and since the effect works the same whether or not you know about it, not spoilery either. 14:02:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:25 |amethyst: I'm not sure. I don't use it and don't care about it, but I've heard other long-time players (e.g. minmay) complain about it somewhat. I think if players are in fact tracking that info because of its spoiler potential, maybe it is a problem. 14:03:10 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 14:03:30 -!- muravey has quit [Quit: Be back later ...] 14:03:38 I'm not really sure which feels like the worse special case to have lying around in code: items {a,b,c} can't generate on d:1 or monsters can't pick up items on d:1 14:04:08 <|amethyst> the latter makes D:1 easier than the former 14:06:00 true 14:06:11 <|amethyst> means no monster wands at all on D:1, for example 14:06:31 <|amethyst> since only uniques are generated with wands 14:06:31 Do monsters currently have wands on D:1? I'm not sure I've ever seen it happen 14:06:39 <|amethyst> they can pick them up 14:07:02 To be fair, a /confusion on d:1 can be fully as fatal as a /fire, but in a more frustrating way 14:07:09 i wonder whether scrolls/potions/wands distribution should be based on item_level more generally 14:07:53 it's quite weird that some things are affected by the level and some not at all 14:08:02 <|amethyst> item-pick-data.h 14:09:09 <|amethyst> any change like that would probably end up being a significant buff to late-game treasure 14:09:19 <|amethyst> either that or a significant nerf to early-game treasure 14:09:29 Or both! :D 14:09:50 <|amethyst> unless something like overall item spawn rates, or base type distribution, changed to compensate for that 14:10:42 -!- Silas is now known as fazisi 14:11:01 <|amethyst> (not that those are necessarily bad, mind you) 14:11:19 <|amethyst> (those = buffs to late/early game and nerfs to early/late game) 14:12:16 // big & tiny & weird races can't wear helmets (& draconians) 14:12:19 who can wear draconians 14:12:24 Spriggans 14:12:44 <|amethyst> wheals: I raise again my proposal to make cloaks by enchanting draconian hides 14:13:37 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: what about replacing Duplicate Item with Duplicate Life? Too felid? 14:14:05 <|amethyst> "Gozag sells you a new body." 14:15:11 huh 14:15:14 what is a skill point 14:15:43 holdover from ancient crawl 14:16:14 I was surprised to see how much c-r-d seems to like DD as-is 14:19:52 <|amethyst> not sure if I would call them a holdover exactly, since there is still not a 1:1 correspondence from XP to skill XP, because of skill_cost_level 14:21:50 <|amethyst> but I don't think there's any way to batch them up outside of wizmode anymore 14:22:05 <|amethyst> maybe if you worship trog and have all trainable non-magic skills at 27? 14:24:20 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 14:30:48 Lasty_: how about just not letting monsters pick up items? 14:31:57 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:31 Lasty_: I guess I'm not that well-informed about the issue though, I don't actually know what the rationale for monster consumable/jewellery/rod use was in the first place (nor the expansions to it) 14:34:35 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:35:06 "because nethack did it," i assume 14:35:20 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:28 minmay: it can be interesting for a monster to have unexpected capability in the form of using an unexpected item. 14:35:44 though with something that far in the past we never will know for sure! 14:35:53 Though I suppose arguably we could instead give certain monsters the chance to spawn with such items instead 14:36:07 nethack monsters wear rings? other than succubi with adornment 14:36:26 Lasty_: yeah, I don't see how that relates to monsters picking up items...monsters already generate with items 14:36:31 -!- War_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:36:49 minmay: it relates in that monsters can pick up items and use items they can't generate with. 14:36:54 Lasty_: and apparently it's not considered interesting in the only place where it would actually matter (early D) because the game attempts to prevent it from happening there 14:37:40 minmay: there's a difference between a goblin with a wand of fire on D:3 and D:1, in that rarely can the D:1 player survive by any means but luck. 14:37:50 Lasty_: I'm speaking from a design standpoint and assuming that the items monsters can generate with isn't 100% irrevocably fixed forever 14:39:15 minmay: . . . aren't you responding to me discussing just that? 14:39:42 Lasty_: minmay: it relates in that monsters can pick up items and use items they can't generate with. 14:40:03 Lasty_: this is suggesting that the items monsters generate with cannot be changed 14:40:42 <|amethyst> this is suggesting that, even if things do change, the distribution of items a particular monster can generate with are not likely to be the same as floor distribution 14:40:48 Lasty_: of course, this doesn't solve the problem you are discussing in the first place (monsters generating with wands of fire on D:3 but not D:1 is just as bad as the floor generating wands of fire on D:3 but not D:1) 14:40:52 -!- Jonatan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:41:05 read up two lines from there, where I suggest letting such monsters spawn with such items 14:41:26 the point is that monsters picking up items is not necessary for them "have unexpected capability in the form of using an unexpected item" 14:41:35 right, which I already said 14:42:45 What are you suggesting is the problem with having monsters spawn with wands of fire on, say, d:3 and not d:1? It can't be a soft-ID issue, unless you're talking about the case where the monster dies without using the wand. 14:42:56 to clarify, my objection to monster consumable use has nothing to do with them picking them up (unless monsters were changed to not drop their inventory on death) 14:43:16 Lasty_: yes, I'm talking about exactly that case 14:43:39 Lasty_: and the other spoiler issues with it - you wouldn't expect a hobgoblin on D:3 to be fundamentally different from one on D:1 14:46:06 minmay: if you know that monsters can pick up and use items, you would expect any hobgoblin to potentially carry a wand. If the spoiler is that ones on D:1 never carry a wand, it doesn't distort your play to be missing that info. 14:46:35 Lasty_: except it does distort your play, because you will think D:1 hobgoblins are more dangerous than they are 14:46:45 minmay: Overall though, it sounds like what you're advocating for is monsters never pick up items and all items can generate on D:1. Does that include monsters generating on D:1 w/ wands of fire, or monsters never using wands of fire? 14:46:55 Lasty_: either of those options would be fine with me 14:47:32 Huh. I'm not happy with either option. 14:47:41 Lasty_: for solving this specific spoiler problem (my other objection to monster consumable/wand usage - that you are rewarded with items for killing trivial monsters at the edge of LOS - still stands) 14:48:18 Lasty_: well if you mean making wands of fire unusable to monsters, but not other wands, then I would object to that option, but I assumed you meant monsters would never use wands at all 14:49:38 Yeah, I meant no wands at all. I suppose I see your point about the incentives tho 14:51:34 minmay: if monsters never picked up consumables, that problem would be quite easy to solve by not making them drop them 14:51:44 -!- falu has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1] 14:52:21 wheals: yes, that's why I mentioned that it would be solved if monsters didn't drop their inventory on death 14:52:57 That would be sad. There's something great about looting a sweet piece of gear off the monster you killed, particularly if the gear made it a hard fight. 14:53:13 -- oh you meant consumables only 14:53:16 nm 14:53:17 Lasty_: is your problem that monsters with wands would instant-kill players on D:1? if that's the case, why aren't wand of flame/frost high-tier? 14:53:18 yeah 14:53:22 Lasty_: no I meant all items 14:53:27 who wants their used bottles 14:53:44 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.16-a0-4001-g5586aa9: Give Cerebov magic immunity 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5586aa9a6249 14:53:44 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.16-a0-4002-g2d13b8e: Remove magic immunity from some monsters 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 20+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d13b8e932a8 14:54:12 Lasty_: restricting it to wands/potions/scrolls would work to solve this problem but it would also be weird as hell for some, but not all, items to disappear 14:54:20 minmay: The problem I am concerned with is giving monsters unpreventable ways to kill the player on D:1, yes. But as I said earlier, arguably confusion, or as you point out, the other lesser wands, can do the same thing 14:55:15 minmay: except for ashenzarites, they wouldn't be disappearing 14:55:26 that monster just would have not have had an item 14:55:35 wheals: only if it's a scroll or potion 14:55:55 oh yeah 14:56:13 i suppose an alternative solution is to tell non-ashites about monster inv 14:56:22 so you're encouraged to kill only some trivial monsters 14:56:35 clearly "wand of fire (9)" should be changed to "9 wands of fire" and each one is destroyed on use 14:56:49 and "scroll of recharging" is now "scroll of increase size of stack of wands" 14:57:33 rods OP then for sure 14:57:49 "scroll of increase size of stack of wands, or recharge rod" 14:58:01 "or enchant weapon of electrocution" 14:58:56 MarvinPA: do you think spectral things should also get non-immunity? 14:59:09 or do they actually have it, is it overriden by the specific spectre 14:59:20 spectral orc (03Z) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-8 | AC/EV: 2/5 | Dam: 4 | 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1 | Sz: Medium | Int: plant. 14:59:20 <|amethyst> %??spectral orc 15:00:00 Spectral things being magic immune is odd. Is it to protect them from control undead, and, if so, why? 15:00:44 that remark makes me wonder whether using control undead versus greater mummies with ?vuln is now conceivable 15:01:12 Oh, hmm. 15:01:14 Probably. 15:01:31 Is that bad? ?vuln is pretty rare. 15:01:44 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:53 good way to clear some tomb floors 15:01:56 new strat for pacifist tomb, perhaps 15:01:57 <|amethyst> looks like spectral things have always been magic-immune forever 15:02:09 <|amethyst> I didn't look into pre-DCSS history though 15:02:57 i don't think it's bad, no 15:03:09 <|amethyst> oh, they were not magic-immune in 4.1 15:03:19 control undead allowing you to control undead? how horrible 15:03:30 massive dchan nerfs 15:03:42 now my level 9 necro spell is totally useless!!! (just like it was before) 15:04:05 "oh well, back to using my level 5 borg's" 15:04:35 Lasty_: another thing I'd like to point out is that a monster using a consumable almost always has no practical effect other than making you lose the consumable - berserk monster on D:1 could be meaningful except there's code to make it nearly impossible 15:05:14 Lasty_: and can you think of any remotely practical circumstance where a monster using a scroll of blinking/teleport would help the monster 15:05:26 berserk can be pretty noticeable later on 15:05:46 minmay: That's not my experience at all, though the effects are definitely more pronounced pre-Lair. !hw and !berserk and !haste can all meaningfully change fights. 15:06:02 minmay: that's why monsters don't use blinking/teleport 15:06:09 !agi and !resist, sure, nobody's ever noticed their effect 15:06:11 I disagree, monsters are too easy to get away from for those to matter much after early D 15:06:21 Lasty_: oh, when was that removed? 15:06:45 is that why orb guardians haven't killed anyone? 15:06:59 Lasty_: monsters still use scrolls of blinking, I just tested 15:06:59 <|amethyst> Spectral things were MR 5000 when they were added in 2.80 15:07:07 wheals: orb guardians do not drink potions 15:07:37 minmay: seriously? I don't think I have ever seen any monster use a scroll of blinking. What do they do with it? 15:07:51 i guess the difference is that moths berserk multiple ones 15:07:55 yes 15:07:55 Lasty_: they read it, which causes the effect of the blink away spell and destroys the scroll 15:08:18 Lasty_: sounds like you have never played a character with cause fear 15:08:23 minmay: that's 100% new info to me. I swear that's never once come up in my games. 15:08:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:45 minmay: I think I've only once used cause fear. Not for any reason, just happens to be the case. 15:08:48 minmay: haha, spell of cause consumable destruction? 15:08:58 gammafunk: yes 15:09:05 er -- just once had a character who learned cause fear. Used it more than once, of course. 15:09:45 I have lost blinking/tele scrolls to monster usage maybe 5-10 times, and felt threatened by a post-D:2 item-caused berserking monster 0 times 15:10:01 (or item-caused haste, agility, healing, etc) 15:10:25 orc priest (03o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 10-20 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 41 | Sp: pain (d8) [11!AM], cantrip [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM], heal other (2d1) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 15:10:25 %??orc_priest 15:10:30 ah, yeah 15:10:45 I've certainly had e.g. an orc priest heal early game and cause problems 15:10:58 so it is very weird to me that in the one place where I might find monster consumable usage meaningful, D:1, it is not allowed 15:11:02 Ditto. Or a semi-dangerous unique. 15:11:22 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:33 meaningful in a way other than punishing me for not giving trivial item-using monsters as few actions as possible, that is 15:11:59 yeah, that d:1 thing is probably a good point, but I guess the more meaningful point is still that monster consumable usage is just not a great mechanic, all things considered 15:12:27 I guess that also extends to all item usage; the wand thing I'm still not sure about 15:12:37 I have seen plenty of uniques berserk/haste from items but can't recall being scared of it - they're crawl uniques so you don't fight them anyway 15:12:39 er, and wands are consumables 15:13:17 wands are consumables in every meaningful way, I don't know why so many people use the word to mean only scrolls/potions 15:13:22 to be more precise, wand charges are 15:13:29 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:13:47 minmay: it's solely because they continue to exist after charges are gone 15:14:03 as in-game items, even if not usable ones 15:14:03 minmay: you make it sound like you haev unlimited escape options after D:1, but that's rarely true unless you're a Wz. 15:15:38 I suppose an orc hasting/berserking in a bailey could stop you from finishing it 15:15:59 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:49 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19:16 Lasty_: one thing I could imagine is that monsters can only use starting items and never pick up floor loot, and for very few special cases like the Lab Minotaur we just give it some nice chances to get some of the loot in inventory 15:19:40 gammafunk: yeah, absolutely. Same could be done with Elf:3 15:19:48 but dangerous item-using monsters after early early D are basically all dangerous because of spells, so berserk doesn't make them more dangerous and like most of them already have haste 15:20:23 yeah the opposite seems to happen, when they get items they become less dangerous 15:20:29 gammafunk: I'm not against that; it preserves most of the good aspects of monster item use and removes some of the bad. 15:20:32 e.g. mennas zapping wand of flame, if that's still possible 15:20:36 heh, true 15:21:02 Lasty_: yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable; it is spoilery I suppose 15:21:53 as wheals said, you could always indicate when a monster has any item in inventory 15:22:28 I mean, is there a problem with showing that a monster has a wand? You don't have to give the number of charges 15:23:42 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:37 -!- FaMott has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:31:41 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:55 for a less radical solution: how about removing the item depth restrictions but decreasing the intelligence of (hob)goblins, kobolds, maybe gnolls and orcs, so they don't use these items 15:31:58 -!- muravey has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:12 that would allow sane item generation on D:1 without killing anybody 15:32:32 -!- muravey has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:03 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:56 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:37 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:50:40 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:52:27 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:37 -!- caleba has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:49 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:59 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:41 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 15:56:45 -!- TR_Muscateer has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:04:32 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:05 -!- athros has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:51 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 16:21:38 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:25:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:43:13 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:50 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:58 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:19 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:18 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:29 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:05 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:21:28 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:27 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:46 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:54 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-4002-g2d13b8e (34) 17:30:16 -!- WereVolvo1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:57 -!- rockit has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:23 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:42:04 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:52 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:44:04 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:17 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:23 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:56:01 -!- surrr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:02 -!- surr has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:02:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:05:07 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:07:04 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:39 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:16:33 is it new that you have to hit "Y" to confirm learning a spell? 18:21:41 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:29 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:21 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:55 -!- cribozai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:46:01 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 18:50:42 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:27 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Killed by a kitten] 18:56:39 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:27 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:07:42 -!- ibar has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:43 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:43 -!- spacet has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:19 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:57 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:53 -!- caleba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:19:52 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:25:11 -!- Menche has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:28 -!- Patashu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:43 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:55 -!- halberd has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:35:27 -!- Bcadren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:14 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:02 ok 19:51:21 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:53:43 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:44 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:37 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:56:20 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:56:57 -!- hy-on-github has joined ##crawl-dev 19:57:25 Hi! 19:57:38 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:57:56 I'm getting some kind of dump in-game . . . "unlinking item held by dead monster" . . . . what does this mean? 19:58:23 (0.15 Stable version, online, cao server) 19:59:19 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:59:28 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:57 Is that something you guys want to know about or track somewhere? 19:59:58 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:27 <|amethyst> !bug 9251 20:02:27 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9251 20:02:45 <|amethyst> if you can upload a save (or if you're playing online, a save backup link) there that might be helpful 20:03:21 <|amethyst> hm 20:03:31 <|amethyst> there are several reports of that 20:03:34 <|amethyst> the earliest is 20:03:37 <|amethyst> !bug 7983 20:03:37 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7983 20:03:40 <|amethyst> the earliest open one 20:03:43 -!- ClawlessVictory has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:04:08 ok 20:04:25 <|amethyst> I'd say attach it to 7983 20:04:47 I'm on cao 20:04:58 <|amethyst> webtiles or console? 20:05:00 What do I do to get you the "save backup link" ? 20:05:03 webtiles 20:05:25 <|amethyst> it's only in console, but 20:05:37 <|amethyst> save your game and give me your player name 20:05:52 aarujn 20:05:52 saving now 20:06:01 saved and exited 20:06:11 KoVm25 @Vaults1 20:06:38 the message appeared in Elf:3 20:07:31 and also the 1st time I restored from save (repeat of same) 20:07:52 <|amethyst> hm 20:08:01 <|amethyst> #8430 is specifically about Elf:3 20:08:07 <|amethyst> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/Aarujn-0.15-20150213.cs 20:08:15 player name is: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/aarujn.html 20:08:32 -!- orneryostrich has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:33 <|amethyst> you can't download it, but devs can, so just leave a note with that URL 20:08:40 ok 20:09:16 <|amethyst> And mention anything you think might be relevant (location, monsters killed recently, any lost souls, etc etc.) 20:10:09 Elf:3 no visible lost souls (but Elf Death Mages were there so maybe)... In any case: Thanks for being awesome and making a really awesome game !!! 20:10:31 You guys rock! :) :) :) 20:11:04 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:07 -!- Zooty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:11:22 -!- Evablue has quit [Quit: Evablue] 20:22:04 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 20:22:33 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:54 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:55 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:43 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:22 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:34 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:06 it'd probably be a bad idea to make a shop that sells wands with excess charges, right 20:46:41 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:49:51 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:40 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:30 -!- alefury has quit [] 21:08:22 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:50 * ProzacElf shakes his fist at neil and grunt! 21:08:59 you and your dirty shadow traps!! 21:09:22 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:41 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:19 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 21:14:07 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:32 what 21:15:39 I had nothing to do with shadow traps >:( 21:16:04 you sat idly by while they were implemented 21:16:21 you saw the vile machinations and did nothing 21:16:23 nothing! 21:16:32 you're as guilty as if you had thrown the lever yourself! 21:19:01 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:34 lol 21:19:50 i feel vindicated hearing that exchange 21:19:53 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:00 !beer grunt 21:20:01 * Sequell slides a mug of ginger beer down the bar to grunt, courtesy of ProzacElf. 21:20:23 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:13 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 21:29:01 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:39 -!- mamgar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:44 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:52 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:42:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:33 -!- muravey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48:03 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: outta here] 21:48:18 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:32 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:56:13 -!- Insomniak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:45 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:11:59 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:15 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:47 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:23:26 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805]] 22:24:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28:08 huh, interesting. when you buy a thing from a shop it goes into your inventory immediately. if you buy a rune from a shop it does the animation before going back to the shop menu. 22:33:34 wow I'm out of the loop. didn't know you could buy a rune. Gozag? 22:33:44 ?/gozag[rune 22:33:44 Unmatched [ in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/gozag[ <-- HERE rune/ at lib/Henzell/../../src/../lib/LearnDB.pm line 71, <> line 25. 22:34:03 ??gozag[rune 22:34:04 I don't have a page labeled gozag[rune in my learndb. 22:34:04 i'm messing around with Stupid Shop Vault Tricks 22:34:26 ooh 22:34:33 though a gozag altar vault with a shop selling the elven rune for, like, a hundred grand might be interesting, though it'd never make it into the game 22:35:09 ah the elusive Elven Rune 22:35:20 it's an actual item, i think it exists for either zotdef or sprint 22:35:31 ?/elven rune 22:35:31 Matching terms (1): elven_rune 22:35:39 ??elven rune 22:35:40 abyssal rune[1/1]: Can be found in vaults starting at Abyss:3 and deeper. 22:35:49 of course 22:35:52 not sure that's entirely correct 22:36:43 what would be the command to ask sequell who had the most gold on them when they died 22:37:20 sell the abyssal rune and abyss the player to abyss:6 where the chance to find the exit is worse than abyss:1 but the monster set is worse than abyss:5 22:37:32 that also would never make it in the game 22:40:12 hey, vaultfolx, is there any particular design goal of only having three transits generate per pan level not counting runevaults, i was thinking of some decor vaults with transit gates in 'em but wasn't sure if you want to keep the numbers on those down 22:43:42 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 22:48:38 -!- AtomikKrab has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:25 -!- AtomikKrab has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:00 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:50 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:52:44 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:58 -!- ClawlessVictory has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:59:18 Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.16-a0-4002-g2d13b8e (34) 23:00:51 !learn edit gammafunk[5] s/TrHu\^Qaz// 23:00:53 gammafunk[5/12]: non-experimental: SpEn^Ash KoWr^Dith 23:05:32 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:50 -!- WalkerBoh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:08:09 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:08:18 -!- heteroy_ is now known as heteroy 23:22:19 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:29 -!- heteroy_ is now known as heteroy 23:24:30 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25:10 -!- muravey_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:37 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:38 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 23:32:40 -!- caricature has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:32:46 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:39:14 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:09 -!- nicolae- has left ##crawl-dev 23:41:11 -!- scummos| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:31 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:48:31 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:18 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:01 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]