00:00:13 well, I suppose if nothing comes in quicker than n ms, you can require people to click the list, and pop up a "you might want to download crawl" warning anyway 00:00:14 <|amethyst> I was thinking /robots.txt would never be there, but on some servers it might 00:00:40 you can probably do a HEAD request with ajax so existence is not a problem 00:00:45 <|amethyst> and, yeah, if tornado itself is introducing variable lag that wouldn't work 00:00:52 sounds like we are moving to a more formal architecture for official servers. just require the file to be there 00:01:13 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:19 or is that too draconian 00:01:22 (hur) 00:01:35 we can pick an arbitrary URL for each server. |amethyst, do any servers NOT have an apache/nginx/etc daemon too? 00:01:38 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:19 <|amethyst> anyone who's official does, because otherwise there's no way for us to get the logfiles/milestones 00:02:33 <|amethyst> it might be on a different hostname, but "arbitrary URL" would handle that 00:02:43 <|amethyst> could pick dgl-status 00:03:04 <|amethyst> but I guess that depends on your changes 00:03:10 good point. well, good idea, it will get rid of this vipers nest of code 00:03:12 <|amethyst> and not everyone has that 00:03:32 <|amethyst> hm 00:03:34 like you say, it doesn't need an extant file, we just need to measure the 404 time 00:03:47 so I'll request a fake URL on every host and compare 404 time 00:04:01 <|amethyst> hm 00:04:08 <|amethyst> there might still be issues with the idea 00:04:18 <|amethyst> browser max. concurrent connections, for example 00:04:32 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3934-g674a7c2 (34) 00:04:36 oh, duh. security issues too 00:04:37 <|amethyst> I guess we could ping them sequentially 00:04:42 you can't call arbitrary resources with AJAX 00:05:13 we can add cors headers on each crawl server, but that's suddenly complex 00:06:15 well, I suppose you can measure the time until jquery throws an exception, because it can't do that until it checks for cors header existence. hmmmmm..... 00:09:35 <|amethyst> heh 00:11:14 <|amethyst>

00:11:38 <|amethyst> but cache :( 00:13:20 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:13:51 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:23 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:21:06 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:25:21 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:25:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:28:32 -!- Ipsum has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:07 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:31 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:46:00 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.16-a0-3935-gf5411c7: Monstrous Menagerie cap: 4->3 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5411c73e532 00:46:17 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:09 !tell PleasingFungus You can never nerf me!!!! 00:47:09 gammafunk: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 00:48:12 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:50:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:59:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:01:17 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:46 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:04:06 -!- kroki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:04:59 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 01:05:21 -!- rgould has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:40 -!- xnmojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:21:26 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:39 -!- Sonderblade has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:30 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:18 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:42 -!- Lawman0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:47 !messages 01:40:48 No messages for TZer0. 01:40:52 :( 01:41:34 <|amethyst> TZer0: chequers was wondering if you are the "owner" of CLAN now or if that's still Aleksi 01:41:58 <|amethyst> TZer0: though in retrospect he may have meant "admin", and I confirmed that 01:42:39 I'm still the admin 01:42:53 Aleksi has been very inefficient in his transfer of server-control 01:43:32 He has plenty to do + he is great at procrastination ;) 01:43:52 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:59 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 01:44:13 I might shut down the current CLAN server to set up a new one with dockers and stuff + a better CPU 01:44:23 once crawl-docker is slightly more stable 01:44:25 and usable. 01:45:12 How much been done in regards to making dgamelaunch-config generate our required config-files? 01:45:51 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:18 *has been 01:46:19 <|amethyst> TZer0: gammafunk sounded like he thought he would have that quite soon 01:46:24 <|amethyst> TZer0: or at least 01:46:35 <|amethyst> TZer0: the part about adding a new experimental (or stable) branch 01:46:41 interesting 01:46:55 I still kind of want menu generation as well 01:48:31 -!- urthmove1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:03:05 is it possible for the depth zig to be a portal mimic? 02:03:10 and me just not get my zig 02:03:41 because that just happened 02:05:34 -!- FuHanchu has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:07:17 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:10:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:17:20 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:25 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:41 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:21:50 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3935-gf5411c7 (34) 02:26:40 -!- ekix has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:26:54 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27:52 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:28:47 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:32:54 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:21 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:38:51 -!- Guest1264 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:41:02 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48:13 -!- mibeto has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48:49 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 02:50:29 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:57:28 rast: considering it just happened to you.. yes? 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ZZZzzz…] 11:35:26 really? one was according to rast 11:36:02 he's the one who plays 0.15 because he whines about ranged combat, right 11:36:03 -!- PlaysNH has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:36:16 shrug 11:36:37 this is probably a better way to make them not mimics than the previous one, admittedly 11:36:44 (which made them non-mimicable) 11:36:49 something something more elegant way to fix mimics 11:36:56 something removal etc 11:37:03 make them vanish??? 11:37:08 remove mimicbab 11:38:47 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:41:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:51:19 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:59 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:38 Devfolk: Beogh has one invocation that's meaningfully affected by Invo, Smite. It costs 3 piety. How much damage would you guess it does (if you don't know offhand), and how much do you think it should do? 12:06:11 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:11 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:07 I ask because it seems ludicrously low to me 12:09:38 How much damage? 12:09:39 8-13 12:10:58 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:21 -!- Basil is now known as Guest32428 12:12:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:24:22 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:22 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:32:36 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:42 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:01:10 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:39 -!- surr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:10:05 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:11:17 <|amethyst> could make it zero-piety so it's spammable like Lesser Destruction 13:19:30 that would make it too powerful 13:19:36 I think I would be happy if it were 1 piety 13:19:52 can't use it forever, but it is reasonable to use a lot of the time 13:19:53 <|amethyst> could remove it entirely, but that loses a neat connection between orc priests and orc priests 13:25:49 -!- theTower has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:07 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:00 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 13:28:13 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:43 The damage ranges from 9 max (avg 8) at 0 Invo to 37 max (avg 22) at 27 Invo 13:41:21 I suppose at 1 piety it would be conceivably usable in some situations, though finding a way to hit something in melee would be better against almost everything 13:41:23 Get us some numbers for other divine abilities :) 13:41:34 it was pretty okay last time i used it 13:41:45 -!- halberd has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:45 MarvinPA: how much invo? 13:41:50 since it's not like you need to spend xp on anything in particular with beogh 13:41:50 what sorts of targets? 13:41:52 i dunno, a bunch 13:41:56 zot stuff 13:42:07 You smite the orb of fire! 13:42:08 So you'd take down aliches and orbs of fire w/ it? 13:42:35 i remember doing noticeable amounts of damage to them 13:42:52 chequers: https://crawl.project357.org/dgl-status appears to have nothing? 13:42:52 It does ignore defenses . . . 13:42:52 this was years ago probably, although the ability hasn't changed i guess 13:43:09 !log . won beogh 13:43:10 1. MarvinPA, XL25 HOPr, T:122991: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/MarvinPA/morgue-MarvinPA-20100830-135822.txt 13:43:41 maybe beogh orcs don't win the game for you quite as much these days? i dunno 13:43:47 No action count! :( 13:43:47 i expect they probably still do though 13:43:54 They still win the game for you pretty well 13:48:52 i wouldn't be against reducing the piety cost a bit anyway, but probably not all the way down to 1 13:48:55 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:36 imo it should be worse at 0 invo and scale better with invo 13:49:45 sort of weird how it's a fixed piety cost instead of randomised like most others too, not that that matters especially 13:49:45 regardless of what is done with cost 13:49:56 For reference, Qaz's upheaval does 3d(27 + Invo*12/15), so 3d9 at 0 Invo (max 27, avg 15) ranging to 3d48 at Invo 27 (max 144, avg 73.5) 13:49:58 if it's the only invo ability, invo should have more of an impact 13:50:19 Qaz's power can hit multiple enemies and can be resisted by defenses 13:51:05 and that costs 3 base piety (modified by the standard transformation) 13:51:15 as opposed to Smite, which is always exactly 3 piety. 13:51:59 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:52:05 My feeling is that Smite should be pretty strong at 27 Invo, on the grounds that getting that much Invo on Beogh has no other purpose at all, and 27 skill levels should be worth something 13:53:19 bring it up to Beogh smite levels <_< 13:53:25 !lg * ktyp=beogh_smiting max=dam x=dam 13:53:27 55. [dam=117] topbillin the Invulnerable (L27 HOPr of The Shining One), smitten by Beogh in Hell (vestibule_of_hell) on 2012-02-28 16:41:39, with 701870 points after 113989 turns and 9:50:26. 13:53:43 -!- inspector071 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:53:47 Grunt: heh, yeah, Beogh saves the good smites for you 13:54:02 !lg * ktyp=beogh_smiting max=sdam x=sdam 13:54:03 55. [sdam=152] agentgt the Slayer (L26 HOWr of Beogh), smitten by Beogh on D:9 on 2014-02-19 18:50:19, with 561073 points after 86702 turns and 12:05:48. 13:57:15 Saint Roka (12o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 35 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 5021 | Sp: battlecry [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 13:57:15 %??saint roka 13:58:45 So, I'm thinking something like changing smite from one die to three dice (weighting towards average rolls), and aiming for an average damage of at least 35 for 27 Invo, maybe closer to 40. If necessary, increasing piety cost to balance it out. 14:00:39 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:01:21 I mean, arguably Beogh doesn't need a buff, and I get that, but I just feel like this ability is too lame as-is. I'd prefer it if for damage it ignored Invo all together and always did 10-17 like an orc priest, and cost 0-1 piety or something. Maybe with a modest invo cost to use reliably (10-ish?) 14:01:48 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:20 yeah i would lean towards making it unusable at 0 invo and sorta good at 10 14:05:59 it kinda feels right that it uses invo, though it does seem awkward that its his only ability that uses it 14:06:34 I'd be less unhappy w/ it being the only ability that uses it if it got genuinely good after a huge investment 14:06:54 yeah i would say better scaling, worse base 14:07:15 the cost is probably fine, though i guess it could use the standard random piety model 14:07:22 in lieu of always 3 14:11:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:40 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:29 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20:40 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:59 re: smiting, I agree: the cost is okay (should be noticeable) but skill should have a serious impact. 14:22:10 !lm dpge 14:22:10 No milestones for dpge. 14:22:12 !lm dpeg 14:22:12 10026. [2015-02-04 15:15:46] dpeg the Pyromancer (L26 HOFE of Beogh) escaped from the Abyss! (Abyss:1) 14:22:18 !seen dpeg 14:22:18 I last saw dpeg at Thu Feb 5 20:22:11 2015 UTC (7s ago) saying '!lm dpeg' on ##crawl-dev. 14:22:22 ^ did some smiting in Beogh's name! 14:22:38 * Grunt calls down the wrath of Beogh upon dpeg. Something smites dpeg! 14:23:13 Grunt: are you even an orc?? 14:23:20 -!- Earlo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:25 -!- NomadJim_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:16 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:25:40 dpeg: who else would go forth and slaughter the unbelieving players?? 14:26:30 any sane developer? 14:28:41 so sane developers are orcs now? 14:29:47 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:03 The dev Grunts, as devs often do. 14:31:16 !lg Grunt HO-- 14:31:17 26. SGrunt the End of an Era (L27 HOFi of Qazlal), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-11-03 02:54:53, with 1460951 points after 100516 turns and 4:30:06. 14:31:29 !lg Grunt ho|lo 14:31:29 27. SGrunt the End of an Era (L27 HOFi of Qazlal), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-11-03 02:54:53, with 1460951 points after 100516 turns and 4:30:06. 14:31:34 27 !!! 14:33:27 !tell pleasingfungus "Nerf menagerie" struck an entry off my todo list 14:33:27 wheals: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 14:34:55 !nerf wheals 14:34:55 * Sequell nerfs wheals!!! 14:35:19 * wheals gestures. Something nerfs Grunt! 14:36:06 !singularity wheals 14:36:07 Grunt gestures wildly while chanting. Space collapses on itself with a satisfying crunch. The singularity violently warps wheals! 14:39:12 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:35 !shatter Grunt 14:40:35 AtomikKrab casts a spell. The dungeon rumbles around AtomikKrab! Grunt shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:41:03 Wensley: it's not a very popular server :) 14:41:15 Wensley: i see a line now 14:41:18 !tornado AtomikKrab 14:41:18 Grunt mumbles some strange words. A great vortex of air appears and lifts Grunt up! AtomikKrab is engulfed in raging winds. 14:41:30 !cmd !shatter 14:41:30 Command: !shatter => .echo $nick $(=rndspellgesture). The dungeon rumbles around ${nick}! ${*:-$channel} shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:42:09 !cmd !shatter .echo $nick $(=rndspellgesture). $channel rumbles around ${nick}! ${*:-Everyone} shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:42:10 Redefined command: !shatter => .echo $nick $(=rndspellgesture). $channel rumbles around ${nick}! ${*:-Everyone} shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:42:12 !shatter 14:42:13 wheals casts a spell. ##crawl-dev rumbles around wheals! Everyone shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:42:20 !shatter Grunt 14:42:20 wheals gestures wildly while chanting. ##crawl-dev rumbles around wheals! Grunt shudders from the earth-shattering force. 14:46:56 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:05 !scatter wheals 14:49:27 * wheals disperses. 14:53:59 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:46 -!- falu has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1] 14:56:33 Of the assembled devs, do you favor 1) leaving Beogh Smite as is, 2) making it cheaper and weaker, or 3) making it meaningfully scale w/ invo? 14:57:29 -!- kaibacorp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:59:08 as nice as #3 would be it would be stepping over mr. qazzy's toes 14:59:38 Lasty_: I am for 3). 14:59:45 Well, the AOE would still be different, and I assume it would still be irresistable, but have lower damage potential 15:00:53 yeah, given the Beogh is likely to keep smite forever (due to orc priests), can as well make it stronger -- it synergises well with allies, at least 15:01:25 It does indeed 15:02:07 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:05:43 03elliptic02 07* 0.16-a0-3937-g92ef210: Remove some misleading damage_done > 0 checks for monster attack flavours. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=92ef210f0f8b 15:07:07 elliptic: thanks for that 15:10:31 !learn add lasty_to_do scale Beogh smite w/ Invo better 15:10:32 lasty to do[9/9]: scale Beogh smite w/ Invo better 15:13:56 -!- hy-on-github has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:03 http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/files/2014/12/Newpic2.png accursedly wonderful new generation, sigh 15:18:57 Mark is a machine, indeed. 15:19:00 + if (one_chance_in(20) || one_chance_in(3)) 15:20:16 Fle Bne Fre Acd Inf Bld Mss Oin Sut Ban Spl Wou 15:21:02 the old always scars the new, yes >_> 15:21:41 Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf 15:22:36 infinity resistance, granted by ouroboros scale armour 15:22:44 NaN NaN NaN NaN 15:23:38 Hello! 15:23:55 flea ??? ??? acid infinity blind moss onion ??? banishment spellcasting wound 15:24:40 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:35 freedom resistance 15:31:37 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:32:41 Grunt: you want to nerf quasits by changing it to merely 1/3?!?! 15:32:48 if anyone is interested https://github.com/alexjurkiewicz/dcss-website 15:33:03 change it to 11/30 15:33:25 That's the difference between a 33% and a 35% chance of triggering! 15:33:33 <3 15:33:46 You player lover. 15:38:52 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:13 Hello? 15:41:18 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:41:24 -!- Piginabag has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:41:24 hi? 15:41:29 Hi! 15:41:46 hi wheals 15:42:00 I was wondering if someone had Chris Campbell's playername, or fn ID, or . . . 15:42:07 how I could talk with him? 15:42:27 he's MarvinPA in this channel 15:42:33 Cool! 15:42:38 tx! 15:43:01 I could even ask here, then. . . 15:43:17 So, is non-violence dead, as a play-style? 15:43:21 (re: Ely changes) 15:43:57 non-violence never worked with Ely anyway 15:44:01 you had to eat 15:44:06 [listens] 15:44:18 Ok, maybe "Mostly non-violent? ;) 15:44:57 I suppose the ideal would have been SpMoEly, in that sense 15:45:03 But . . . 15:45:27 I found that one of the best things about this game had been that there was a "low slaughter" option 15:45:36 I feel that really set Crawl apart! 15:45:41 I am sad to see it go :( 15:46:01 The world of Crawl feels a lesser place without. 15:46:04 DoomRL had a specific mode where you can't fire weapons or punch things. 15:46:06 (just fyi) 15:46:13 huh 15:46:17 (instead you gain levels as you delve deeper) 15:46:19 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:46:21 -!- kroki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:46:32 03wheals02 07* 0.16-a0-3938-g2f22082f: Make insubstantial monsters immune to collisions. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2f22082f7007 15:46:32 03wheals02 07* 0.16-a0-3939-g9a3e665: Don't replace non-floor with the water card (#9471). 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9a3e6658de8e 15:46:36 hm! did not know that 15:46:36 well a very large majority of players didn't find the way pacifist runs played to be very appearling 15:46:37 [listens] 15:47:05 What was their trouble / issue wi. pac. runs? 15:48:09 interaction with lots of pacified monster, and generally just using a single smite-targetted ability to effectively kill things is not very interesting 15:48:50 (I feel it would be totally fine to make it HARDER, if the issue was: "Smite target spam to win" 15:48:57 . . . 15:49:25 but, I feel the world of Crawl is lessened by removing the (?one?) low-murder-rate option!) 15:49:32 hy-on-github: but harder in what way? If the challenge is that healing works less often, you just have to spam it more. 15:49:34 well it would really depend on what harder would mean; harder in the sense of "it fails more often" definitely wouldn't be the right direction 15:49:41 Lasty_: hi 15:49:50 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:58 Granted I am new. But I really really like this game, and have been putting in the time to improve: 15:49:58 fr: negotiation mode 15:49:59 !gamesby aarujn current trunk 15:50:00 aarujn (current trunk) has played 42 games, between 2014-06-12 14:29:30 and 2015-02-01 19:18:40, won 8 (19.0%), high score 8485664, total score 47741525, total turns 1997604, play-time/day 1:43:09, total time 16d+20:02:53. 15:50:00 Hi yourself. I was in 2 seconds ahead of you. :) 15:50:28 And if was really inspiring to find a low-slaughter playstyle supported in the game. 15:50:30 I thought it first 15:50:41 gammafunk: to the logs! 15:51:17 hy-on-github: I don't think anyone minds you being new, but no one has yet proposed a workable, fun form of Crawl pacifism. If you have an idea for how to do it, I think I can safely say we're all ears! :D 15:51:27 ok 15:51:32 *pacifism as a primary tool, that is 15:51:34 I can code. 15:51:58 I dont know if I have THE ANSWER atm, but, I will play and listen to other players, and . . . 15:52:25 . . . maybe a solution will become evident. 15:52:33 fr: economic destabilization mode 15:52:44 clearly make it about debilitating monsters for experience and running away with penalties for actually killing things 15:52:53 fr: campaign mode, where you convince the dungeon denizens to vote for you 15:53:20 (my playername is "Aarujn" . . . I will ask / spectate, see what I can learn) 15:54:04 To my understanding, the prev. Ely balance was between food, XP, and Piety. 15:54:19 So, to play Pac-style, you needed to manage those trade-offs. 15:54:31 (successfully) 15:55:25 And, from what you guys are saying, players found it tedious? 15:56:03 !lg * om x=race 15:56:06 Or . . . ? 15:56:06 4289. [race=Ogre-Mage] Tenaya the Skirmisher (L2 OMCK of Makhleb), succumbed to poison on D:2 on 2010-03-05 18:54:32, with 123 points after 1499 turns and 0:02:29. 15:56:46 yes, because of the way pacified monsters interact, and because using an ability that either instant-kills (pacifies) a monster or doesn't without any positioning or targetting at all is pretty boring 15:56:50 ah 15:56:51 ok 15:57:10 so it needs to be more "tactical" ... involving more thought and skill 15:57:33 ok 15:57:41 yeah, probably so, and it's a little hard to imagine something that does involve more thought and skill that's not somehow similar to melee 15:57:46 or using spells, etc 15:57:53 -!- Guest32428 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:57 [listens] 15:58:44 Perhaps that may be where being new is actually an advantage . . . it may be easier for newer players to imagine things being different, if only because they don't know as much or have the ingrained history? 15:58:50 I'm not sure what you can do with pacified monsters that would make them interesting to have around so that pacification didn't just feel like using a damaging spell type ability 15:59:10 hm 15:59:41 lol 15:59:45 I got a bug 16:00:36 in the grunt joke translation, if you go for a spell description, the dots are replaced with exclamation marks 16:00:36 http://prntscr.com/61jege 16:00:49 it's a Feature 16:01:00 well, I'm not sure either. Randomly: What if you shared your food with them to make them friendly? (precedent: Fedhas) 16:01:10 Bloax: pls 16:01:59 OR, what if you had to "lead them free" . . . i.e. they would follow you to an exit, then leave? 16:02:24 and if you didn't lead them to an exit in N turns they would re-hostile-ize? 16:02:50 sounds not very fun, since every significant pacificant means a travel back to stairs 16:02:53 That could involve some time-pressure, positioning, and other player-stress 16:03:07 ok 16:03:08 hm 16:03:33 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:43 hy-on-github: it's probably best if you just spend some time thinking of a specific proposal in some detail. You can then post it on the game design discussion forum in tavern for player feedback 16:03:46 ??tavern 16:03:47 forum[1/6]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 16:04:01 -!- Basil is now known as Guest38514 16:04:05 hy-on-github: there are lots of very experienced players who can give feedback about it 16:04:10 no doubt 16:04:14 but they can be brutally honest... 16:04:16 hy-on-github: I came up with pacification years ago, and one of my aims was to provide a new playing style. 16:04:26 yes Ive heard it was a bit of a meatgrinder 16:04:40 (player feedback) 16:04:59 I think that Elyvilon has profited from becoming more active (there was only self-healing before), but unfortunately I have to admit that no-kills sounds cooler than it playerd :( 16:05:17 I'm new, but I'm not TERRIBLE. I'm a "goodplayer" but not (yet) a "greatplayer": http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/aarujn.html 16:05:52 11% win rate 16:05:55 brb crying 16:06:04 -!- thromnambular has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:22 I have gotten 12-13 races out of the dungeon alive. (mostly the "good" ones) 16:06:29 hy-on-github: with the recent change, Elyvilon keeps some of the active part, but without the annoying components. It's a bit sad to see the potential playing style ("pacifism only/mostly") go, but it is for the better. If others have ideas, nurture them and tell us. :) 16:06:38 (actually 19% in recent times) 16:06:43 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 16:07:17 I have the only score that matters 16:07:21 !hs * place=d:1 16:07:23 1086226. gammafunk the Demonologist (L27 HEIE of Sif Muna), quit the game on D:1 on 2014-02-22 20:26:26, with 941018 points after 49424 turns and 12:08:34. 16:07:32 unkillable 16:07:36 q_q 16:07:38 OK I will do my best to think of something fun, talk to other players, spectate and ask them, and report back 16:07:46 Oh, an elf! 16:07:48 Cool! 16:08:08 How / why "unkillable" label? 16:08:22 hy-on-github: great! Forum is a bit better, because it preserves information (it has a different audience but I, for example, read it). 16:08:24 hy-on-github: some of use are just very silly people, and it's hard to explain 16:08:51 i just checked if I have someone on ignore 16:09:19 you guys are nuts 16:09:23 Hey I am silly too -- trying to play a "non-violence" style . . . I am willing to code, if we can come up with something awesome. . . 16:09:47 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:51 I don't know what The Answer is. I will try to find out. 16:10:02 Take Care, Everyone, and thanks for chatting !!! :) 16:10:04 my life philosophy for sure 16:10:20 Tux[Qyou], as far as I can tell there are IRC clients that do not make clear the difference between pm and channel messages 16:10:36 which leads to people conducting their side of a private discussion in the channel 16:10:57 geekosaur: huh? 16:10:57 (yes, sorry -- and, also, others were pitching in as well) 16:11:10 [05 22:08] i just checked if I have someone on ignore 16:11:18 yeah 16:11:18 and I'm not seeing one side of whatever discussion that was 16:11:27 i think i'm missing something 16:11:32 because this is as coherent 16:11:35 as 16:11:37 as it's not 16:11:47 it was mostly coherent until you came along, tbh 16:11:49 there's someone in another channel Im in where I *know* they're responding to someone who /msg-ed them 16:12:06 but they're responding in channel because their client doesn't open a new window for private chats 16:12:14 (or tab, whatever) 16:12:28 hexchat has >< tag near the name to differ PMs from chan msgs 16:12:36 and it's not otherwise obvious that it was /msg, so they respond normally 16:13:34 geekosaur: OH 16:13:39 I get what you mean 16:13:43 jesus i'm such a derp. 16:17:06 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:22:11 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:44 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23:01 gammafunk: I'm running the dgl-statu patch on my server and it seems fine btw 16:24:29 well, I'll probably merge some things in my next round of commits 16:25:12 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:25:28 JOB_ARTIFICER, // Greenberg/Bane 16:25:40 -!- Tamiore has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:27:03 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:32 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:05 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:38:49 <|amethyst> hm 16:39:21 <|amethyst> what is the interesting part of pacifism? 16:39:35 <|amethyst> is it just the flavour? 16:40:03 <|amethyst> would it be less of a different playstyle if instead it were "banish most monsters to the abyss"? 16:40:31 |amethyst: I think the flavour attracts people, yes 16:41:14 yeah, regardless if the game mechanic is the same, playing with a different intention matters 16:41:21 <|amethyst> dpeg: hm, and I suppose "melee things until they realise the error of their ways" wouldn't have the same feel 16:41:34 |amethyst: you can do that with beogh 16:41:39 <|amethyst> wheals: only some things 16:42:13 when you pacify a creature, it runs to the nearest up stair and disappears 16:42:13 but it's cool 16:42:33 I always pray a bit in front of the screen to help that dastardly heathen orc warlord see the light 16:44:03 <|amethyst> what if an unarmed from an Ely worshipper did no damage, but had a chance to pacify 16:44:11 <|amethyst> s/unarmed/& attack/ 16:44:26 <|amethyst> then at least you have to put yourself in harm's way 16:46:45 hm, tbh, the basic premise of providing an entirely new way to deal with almost all monsters is probably not so good: it works when the mechanic is small (slimify, banish), but if it is large (pacify, decks), we run into problems 16:49:15 <|amethyst> If that's the case, the only kind of pacifism we can really support is "run away from everything" 16:49:25 note to self: invent fewer gods with game-disabling concepts 16:49:52 Dith is the best pacifist god 16:50:06 |amethyst: yeah, and we should accept this 16:50:20 |amethyst: players can go for wins with minimal kills, and that's alright, too 16:50:42 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:43 problem is that it's kills which give XP 16:52:25 maybe a god which gives XP apart from kills? and doesn't appreciate killing too much? (small chance to lose small amount of piety when killing maybe, gain for exploration) 16:52:43 Kramin: well, I have this idea for a thief god, where you get xp for just spotting monsters :) [it won't work, though, I've learned that lesson] 16:52:47 <|amethyst> %git halftone 16:52:48 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-2392-g6838c7c: Give XP to Dith worshippers on seeing a monster (dpeg) 10(1 year ago, 2 files, 15+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6838c7c8ceaf 16:52:57 oh 16:53:47 |amethyst: yes, that is the mild form which can work. I don't think you can build a god around not-killing (because the damn monsters will permanently interfere with travel... for which you can invent a travel system etc... it is too much) 16:54:35 Kramin: so as you can see, we've been thinking these things :) 16:54:51 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:52 <|amethyst> I'm not sure I'm comfortable with what feels like a shift towards "melee and conjurations are the only way to progress" 16:55:05 <|amethyst> maybe it's not a shift 16:55:37 dpeg: yeah, and it didn't work guess 16:55:41 -!- Alarkh has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:57 |amethyst: there's always ranged combat! 16:56:17 <|amethyst> wheals: is there? I thought there was talk about how ranged shouldn't be something you can win the game with 16:56:24 <|amethyst> wheals: but more of a supplement like evocations 16:56:27 !lg * recent ce / !ce 16:56:28 0/13739 games for * (recent ce): N=0/13739 (0.00%) 16:56:29 <|amethyst> s/evocations/wands/ 16:56:35 oops 16:57:03 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:57:09 <|amethyst> wheals: since it isn't tactically limited and requires little in the way of positioning 16:57:16 chequers: a centaur is a centaur is a centaur, of course! 16:57:48 <|amethyst> ("tactically limited" in the sense of running out of MP) 16:58:06 hrm 16:58:31 <|amethyst> I guess there are still summons 16:58:48 i don't really like it as a supplement, because the interface isn't too great there 17:00:22 -!- LordSloth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:55 <|amethyst> dpeg: hm, what do you think about enslavement? 17:02:01 |amethyst: enslavement is good, because it takes a monster (a resource) and makes it yours. As usual, the spell could be problematic, but limited versions should always be fine. 17:03:30 <|amethyst> dpeg: as a spell or other unlimited ability... isn't it better-than-pacification? 17:03:49 <|amethyst> I mean, ignoring the issue of monsters with low maxHP but high MR 17:03:51 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:05:34 perhaps, but the player at least doesn't feel forced into dragging around enslaved monsters everywhere 17:05:36 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:08 -!- LordSloth_ is now known as lordsloth 17:08:21 wheals: like I said on the forum, none of these companions should be eternal, they should all disappear or go away after a while. It is okay when gods are exempt (naturally, B & Y). 17:08:26 <|amethyst> oh huh... tangentially related, but I never realised ais523 was an Agora player 17:08:38 <|amethyst> I was trying to find his "overhead" essay 17:08:51 it was headroom 17:08:55 <|amethyst> ahh 17:08:56 <|amethyst> thank you 17:09:50 <|amethyst> !learn add headroom http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html 17:09:50 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.16-a0-3939-g9a3e665 (34) 17:09:50 headroom[1/1]: http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html 17:10:21 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:29 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: early sleep!] 17:17:50 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:09 is it shameful to admit that when I read the monstrous menagerie nerf my first thought was that the spell was already capped at 3 to begin with 17:19:12 <|amethyst> !tell ais523 never realised you were an Agora player... your times probably didn't overlap, but I was once a roommate of harvel/Maud (and played for a few months myself) 17:19:13 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ais523 know. 17:19:22 <|amethyst> Lightli: apparently everyone thought that 17:19:27 <|amethyst> Lightli: see the commit message :) 17:19:28 |amethyst: melee, ranged, spellcasting, evo and invo being the main ways to progress is the cornerstone of crawl. Do you think the pacifism change overly reduces the role of Invo in that formulation? 17:19:35 |amethyst: the nethack maud? 17:19:50 (player, not tennyson maud) 17:20:08 <|amethyst> hm 17:20:14 <|amethyst> I doubt it but am not certain 17:20:17 because every summon spell I knew of was capped at either 1, 3, or 8, so I assumed 3 by default 17:20:38 |amethyst: two concepts I've been toying with for pacifism: 1) passing a turn after an enemy hurts you has a chance to pacify the monster. 2) the ability works as it does now, but the pacified monster, if normal+ intelligence, attempts to convert other normal+ intelligence monsters as well, making it a chain reaction bomb sort of thing. 17:21:09 In 2) the pacified creatures would need to leave the dungeon faster (once out of LOS?) so that you don't just pacify the whole level automatically 17:21:39 once they convert enough, they cash out 17:21:41 <|amethyst> !tell ais523 not same person as the alt.org Maud, afaik... he doesn't seem like the speedrunning type 17:21:42 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ais523 know. 17:21:45 it's a pyramid scheme sort of thing 17:22:24 So a pacifist playstyle would involve luring big groups of monsters together (dangerous) and then dropping a pacifism bomb on them 17:22:38 but it lots of monsters, including lair, would not be susceptible 17:22:52 (fr: raise the cap on butterflies since it can break it in a single casting) 17:22:55 or at least lair wouldn't chain react 17:23:16 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:17 <|amethyst> FR: nam-shub of enki 17:23:24 haha 17:23:27 -!- kroki has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:23:28 snowcrash++ 17:23:56 <|amethyst> Lasty: my /etc/motd on my home machine is: 17:24:00 <|amethyst> νυν ουκ εκλειψει εξ αυτων παντα οσα αν επιθωνται ποιειν 17:24:03 <|amethyst> now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do 17:24:42 haha nice 17:24:52 Hey that's an awesome quote. (Sez the lurking Pacifist Aarujn) ;) 17:24:52 <|amethyst> Lasty: if you like snow crash, I highly recommend playing _Slouching Towards Bedlam_ 17:25:01 <|amethyst> Lasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slouching_Towards_Bedlam 17:25:50 <|amethyst> Lasty: (unless you're allergic to steampunk) 17:26:08 oo, sounds fun 17:26:09 I am not 17:33:37 -!- stanzill has quit [Quit: au rev] 17:34:20 I expected more people to have an opinion about evangelical pacification 17:36:18 (I thought it was interesting! I also liked your "turn the other cheek" method -- "1) passing a turn after an enemy hurts you has a chance to pacify the monster" -- very Gandhi-esque I thought) 17:38:43 (I had been trying to think along Aikido lines -- I think 1) does that more simply than having a "Give Quarter" option to transform what would be a killing blow into a status effect of sleep -- which would necessitate something like "excommunicate-on-stab" being part of the religion) 17:40:30 Lasty: blurry vision and -scroll interact sort of badly 17:40:39 in that you can start reading a scroll and then be told actually, you can't read it 17:41:45 MarvinPA: oh, really? That'd pretty terrible. 17:42:01 <|amethyst> btw, I'm upgrading #9306 (altgr doesn't work in local tiles) to "block" 17:42:05 -Scroll predates delay clurry visiom 17:42:08 *n 17:42:12 er 17:42:15 blurry vision 17:42:17 <|amethyst> I have some ideas but no way to test them 17:42:35 ps, are we getting the random altar for 0.16? 17:42:40 <|amethyst> no 17:42:49 <|amethyst> feature freeze started two days ago 17:42:50 i don't think there's a working patch for it yet 17:42:52 rip 17:43:08 Lasty has Blurry fingers 17:43:15 true 17:43:41 Lasty: also in general ru seems really really really really really really message spammy 17:43:48 but other than that is kinda neat 17:44:06 and gets my "best new god in 0.16 that isn't gozag" seal of approval, imo 17:44:13 MarvinPA: are there messages worth surpressing? 17:44:15 :p 17:44:28 MarvinPA: that praise is *very* extreme! 17:44:39 -!- theTower has left ##crawl-dev 17:44:44 i know! i don't hand out accolades like that willy-nilly 17:44:54 magicalfaerieponies (L23 TeWz) ASSERT(range >= 0) in 'beam.cc' at line 592 failed. (beam 'fireball', source 'tengu reaver', item 'none'; has range -1) (Zot (ZotDef)) 17:45:01 that qualifier makes me so sad, given my feelings about Gozag 17:45:25 i think there are a lot of "redirect 's attack" messages that are kinda superfluous? and often on things that aren't even redirected/redirectable 17:45:50 oh i didn't really need to add the qualifier, i think i've made it fairly clear that i'm not very happy with gozag currently either :P 17:46:15 -!- surr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:46:26 MarvinPA: it probably would make sense to mute some of the redirections (on blinks, for example) 17:46:31 I can tell you that my Ru game was more fun than my beogh game 17:46:33 !lm . 17:46:34 12238. [2015-02-05 23:11:39] gammafunk the Slayer (L24 HOFE of Beogh) killed Boris on turn 101734. (Crypt:3) 17:46:53 it's a bit challenging tho 17:47:12