00:00:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:44 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:03:55 -!- Piginabag has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:00 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:27 -!- bitcoinbastard has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:07:36 -!- Yermak has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:40 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3911-g06eb01e (34) 00:18:25 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:20:38 I always felt that IE was probably the best spellcaster start 00:20:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:34 -!- Wah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:30 throw frost ain't so bad! just for the O and the occasional very problematic green o at distance 00:23:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:25:07 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:52 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:26 -!- Siegurt has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:41:37 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:37 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:24 -!- HaifischSA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:56:34 genericusername42 (L16 GrEE) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 115: ZotDef: monster vampire failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (Zot (ZotDef)) 00:58:37 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:07:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:08:27 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19:39 -!- FIQ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:53 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:23:20 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:27:22 -!- Kintak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:34 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:54 hm, I wonder if Sk and Wr should start with a robe instead of leather now 01:32:11 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:32:18 the difference in casting is noticeable, at least with low strength 01:32:36 (34% vs 24% fail on shroud on TeWr, for instance) 01:32:47 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33:11 or they could get more strength/magic skill I guess 01:34:04 !stats tewr 01:34:05 Starting stats for TeWr: Str 11 Int 13 Dex 13. Stat gain: sid/4 01:34:25 ??starting stats[2 01:34:25 starting stats[2/3]: Ce 10,7,4 | DD 11,8,8 | DE 5,12,10 | Dg 11,12,11 | Dr 10,8,6 | Ds 8,9,8 | Fe 4,9,11 | Fo 12,7,6 | Gh 11,3,4 | Gr 11,8,5 | Ha 8,7,9 | HE 7,11,10 | HO 10,8,6 | Hu 8,8,8 | Ko 6,6,11 | Mf 8,7,9 | Mi 12,5,5 | Mu 11,7,7 | Na 10,8,6 | Og 12,7,5 | Op 7,10,7 | Sp 4,9,11 | Te 8,8,9 | Tr 15,4,5 | Vp 7,10,9 | VS 10,8,9 01:34:42 yeah they're 8 str 01:34:46 so i could see that 01:34:51 Te is human strength even 01:34:58 thought they might be 7 01:34:58 ??starting stats[3] 01:34:59 starting stats[3/3]: AM 3,5,4 | AK 4,4,4 | Ar 3,4,5 | As 3,3,6 | Be 9,-1,4 | CK 4,4,4 | DK 5,3,4 | Fi 8,0,4 | Gl 7,0,5 | He 4,4,4 | Hu 4,3,5 | Mo 3,2,7 | Sk 4,4,4 | Tm 2,5,5 | Wn random | Wr 3,5,4 | Wz -1,10,3 | AE,Cj,EE,En,FE,IE,Ne,Su,VM 0,7,5 01:35:21 Wr and Sk could both be 5,4,3 or some such 01:35:33 if we wanted to give them more strength 01:35:41 not sure how much difference those points actually make 01:35:41 i would like stats to be able to cast shroud at least without having to invest 01:35:45 yeah 01:36:48 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:49 -!- Thanatos_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:37:00 to be fair I guess Te also has pretty bad shroud apts too (-2 for both charms and tloc) 01:37:08 oh that's probably factoring in yeah 01:37:19 probably huwr can cast it at 24%? 01:37:25 but still it's a bit silly that I switched to a robe as soon as I found one 01:39:49 pro tip play DrSk for better spell success 01:39:58 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:44:34 -!- Siegurt has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:26 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:50:01 -!- hallava has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:54:01 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:02 hey devs: 01:59:02 The Serpent of Hell spits crystal at NONEXISTENT FOE. 02:03:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:08:31 -!- mibeto has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:17 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:10:31 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:31 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:12:03 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:06 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:23 -!- Whistling_Bread has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:19:24 -!- Whistling_Beard has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:25 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:44 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-3911-g06eb01e (34) 02:24:07 -!- Guest74165 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:26:25 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:27:28 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:34 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:37:36 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:51:39 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:52:44 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:18 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:56:51 -!- Misder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:58:51 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 03:00:11 -!- Administrator is now known as Guest27595 03:06:07 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: "It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."] 03:06:43 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:07:10 -!- herself has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1] 03:08:10 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:13:45 hmmm, i think that one was reported a bit ago and i was about to fix it and then got distracted and forgot 03:14:33 fixed by NONEXISTENT DEV 03:14:41 :p 03:15:02 anyway, the issue is almost definitely that one of the earlier breath attacks in that round killed the monster it was targeting 03:15:12 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:12 because i don't think i included checks for that 03:15:17 ah, that would make sense 03:15:35 i'm going to bed now though, so maybe tomorrow (unless someone else wants to look into it) 03:16:07 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:19:59 Console exclusion range in viewport looks like bloodied floor tiles 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9465 by chris 03:24:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:32:59 -!- Monkaria has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:39:38 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:49:51 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:54:25 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:57:59 -!- FuHanchu has quit [Quit: Sayonara, Zetsubou Sensei!] 03:58:31 -!- misder has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:25 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:33 -!- spikefolly has quit [Client Quit] 04:21:03 -!- siepu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:27:32 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:41:14 -!- CacoS has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:41:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:42:03 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:42:19 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:18 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48:20 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:01:51 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:06:32 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:36 -!- Pepe has quit [Quit: rebuttal] 05:31:43 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:56 -!- Huene` has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:36:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:47:49 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:51:33 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:38 -!- rophy has quit [Quit: Miranda NG! 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11:42:00 hm, nope 11:42:26 I think it is probably flavor and I can sort of see the flavor but I'm not sure that is worth it 11:43:11 yeah, and that changelog entry is the only place i've ever seen it mentioned 11:43:26 can a follower of Ru lose voice? 11:44:06 anything that lets players permanently lose the ability to read scrolls sounds bad if that is what you are suggesting (identify, remove curse) 11:44:08 no, you can sacrifice scrolls specifically but that only kicks in when you take damage 11:44:47 elliptic: I don't, I was wondering whether something like that is the reason for Ru's exception. 11:45:13 %git 7db326cb 11:45:13 07Lasty02 * 0.16-a0-674-g7db326c: Allow Ru abilities under Silence. 10(5 months ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7db326cb1c9e 11:45:22 that is the flavor justification 11:46:00 but you lose them if you abandon Ru! 11:46:00 except you keep the sacrifices but not the powers when you abandon ru, seems sort of weak justification :P 11:46:27 Lasty_: around? 11:49:09 personally I'd be in favor of being consistent and making both Ru and Nemelex abilities unusable while silenced 11:49:39 (the nemelex flavor makes a little more sense IMO but I've still never been that happy about it being an exception) 11:50:15 (Ru and Nemelex are the only exceptions afaict) 11:52:05 I don't really mind either way, but if the exception stays, it should be mentioned in one of the ^ screens. 11:53:22 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:54:56 i'd be okay with making them both unusable under silence too yeah 12:00:38 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:29 -!- NomadJim_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:05 !tell pleasingfungus i had a shadow trap spawn next to the temple entry with the butterflies 12:09:05 wheals: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know. 12:09:24 shadow traps are also "fun" with jiyva 12:10:38 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:10:45 dpeg: I am now 12:10:46 what's up 12:11:30 Lasty_: discussing whether ru abilities should be usable while silenced 12:11:30 we were talking about silenced ru abilities 12:12:56 Re: losing abilities but not sacrifices when you leave Ru, by leaving Ru you've left the path of enlightenment that enabled you to make use of those powers 12:13:06 You've become distracted once more by creation 12:13:34 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:58 I'd be sad to see Ru abilities unusable while silenced, but it is a purely flavor thing, so it's not gonna break anything to remove it. 12:13:58 is there any non-flavour justification for it though? it's easy to come up with whatever flavour for either direction 12:14:16 gameplaywise it's just a bit of an unclear exception i think 12:15:17 Possibly so. I worry that making them unavailable under silence implies that the god is actively intervening whenever you use one of those abilities, but as the drain cost implies, it's coming from within you rather than from the god 12:16:31 But if it's deemed to be too weird of an exception, I won't kick and scream 12:18:55 Lasty_: if it stays, it got to be mentioned in-game (like ^). 12:19:03 I don't really find it more weird than nemelex abilities ignoring silence (which I don't really like either), and it is probably fine if it is clearly stated on the ^ screen 12:19:03 That's fair 12:19:53 if it stays, perhaps we can later find ways to connect gameplay and flavour better (nothing for now, with feature freeze upon us) 12:19:59 I do think it's a bit unclear what happens if you abandon ru in general though 12:20:23 like, can you rejoin and get your powers back without having to make more sacrifices? 12:20:26 hm 12:20:46 -!- domiryuu has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:20:51 no, and I suppose that isn't fully spelled out 12:20:52 I believe the answer is no but it's a little weird 12:20:59 unless it's spelled out on the wrath page? 12:21:06 !tell Grunt it might make sense to except insubstantial monsters from impact damage 12:21:07 wheals: OK, I'll let grunt know. 12:21:22 and I assume that you can't sacrifice your second hand and stuff :P 12:21:34 Ru does not punish followers who leave Ru's service; however, their piety will 12:21:34 be lost even upon rejoining, and their sacrifices remain forever. 12:21:42 yeah, most of the sacrifices are limited to a certain number of times 12:22:11 like I don't think there are any other gods that punish you so badly for leaving for a while and coming back? 12:22:25 That's probably true 12:22:59 so I could sort of see it being better if you do regain your piety when you rejoin 12:23:02 -!- Earlord has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:12 you've still had to spend some amount of time with the sacrifices and no abilities 12:23:18 but then you could drop Ru, grab gifts from a gifting god, and then go back to Ru 12:23:28 can't you do that with most gods? 12:23:36 sure, if you can get gifts while having all these sacrifices 12:23:38 except lucy, who you can't join if you're in the wrath 12:23:46 wheals: with most gods you endure wrath that could actually kill you 12:23:52 er -- could -directly- kill you 12:24:09 Ru sacrifices w/o Ru powers could certainly lead to death 12:24:09 imo if sacrifices can't kill you there's something wrong :) 12:24:53 I was trying to draw a distinction between the passive death-chance-enhancing quality of Ru sacrifices and Veh dropping a crystal spear on your head, or Trog summoning some berserk stone giants around you 12:25:10 ??sif wrath 12:25:10 sif muna wrath[1/1]: ABANDONMENT: 50 penance. RETRIBUTION: Reduce penance by 1 extra. 20% INT drain, 30% confusion, 20% divination miscast, 20% mana drain (100 points), 10% cancellation of all temporary magic (including flight!) OTHER: While in penance, all spell casts have a 5% chance of terrible failure (guaranteed miscast, increased severity). 12:25:36 seems comparable in some ways to that 12:25:45 I can see the resemblance 12:26:02 and ash wrath has no active component, even 12:26:12 In general, Ru's "wrath" is a constant, low-level threat instead of a periodic spike-y threat 12:26:15 (sac stealth + sac skill? :P) 12:26:45 Ash's minus skill is more like sac skill * 4 or so 12:27:12 yes, the idea with Ash was that you're crippled in skills for a while 12:27:15 yeah 12:27:16 it is not harsh enough? 12:27:23 no, it is very harsh 12:27:24 It's pretty harsh 12:27:31 so is ru :P 12:27:42 good! so no active wrath can work 12:27:43 unless you abandon immediately after joining without making sacrifices of course 12:28:09 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:12 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:28:15 Ru is definitely not one of the best gods to abandon after reaching max piety 12:28:27 challenge games! 12:28:29 s/not one of the best/the worst/ 12:28:33 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:53 -!- Datul has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:29:01 elliptic: yeah, probably. At least among the very worst. 12:29:01 -!- Wensley is now known as Guest94833 12:29:02 anyway I don't actually care about abandoning ru and rejoining, it was just an example of how the flavor is sort of murky 12:29:14 and it could go either way IMO 12:29:23 oh gosh, lab gives exploration piety :| 12:29:27 "Pick Ru as the first god, get to ****** piety as quickly as possible, abandon, and win." 12:29:40 * wheals hopes you can't scum it forever for piety because of the maprot... 12:30:02 wheals: I don't think you can 12:30:09 i don't think you can, abyss is a similar case iirc 12:30:15 good 12:30:21 well, abyss has monster generation 12:30:22 at least 12:30:32 I won't be upset if you get some piety back after rejoining Ru, but IMO it should be less than full piety. You've forgotten some of your lessons while you're becoming invested in creation. 12:30:33 Medar (L16 SpAr) ASSERT(in_diamond_int(r->start)) in 'ray.cc' at line 166 failed. (Elf:3) 12:30:43 dpeg: yeah, I want that to be a tourney challenge option :D 12:31:01 too hard to track 12:31:21 yes, problem is with "as fast as possible" :( 12:31:32 perhaps "full piety before entering Lair" or so 12:31:57 I guess you could require full piety+abandonment before something 12:31:57 IMO, getting the piety fast isn't the issue, it's when you abandon Ru. . . . 12:32:01 maybe before first rune 12:32:17 dpeg: It isn't guaranteed that you can get max piety by the time yuo enter Lair. First rune is much more likely. 12:32:19 better, yes 12:32:30 Lasty_: the problem is tracking to make sure people aren't delaying ****** forever to make sure they don't have to abandon yet 12:33:22 elliptic: right, so I'm saying, don't worry about how fast they get the piety, just set a deadline by which they have to have reached 6* and then abandoned. They can then get piety at whatever rate they want up until then. 12:33:35 anyway I guess I could see this as a one-off challenge (not a banner; banners require multiple tiers and shouldn't require specific god choices) for the first tourney with Ru 12:33:46 Lasty_: that is what I said earlier, yes :) 12:33:46 Cripple Crawl 12:33:51 elliptic: oh, I misunderstood 12:36:03 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:36:36 elliptic: agreed that the abandon-Ru challenge seems like a one-off or else something for a smaller tourney like CSDC 12:37:26 yeah i don't think it would be out of place if you got some piety back rejoining ru 12:37:29 like you do for good god swaps 12:37:45 Thematically, any banner relating to giving something up would work for Ru -- giving up branches, giving up a type of consumable, etc, 12:38:13 it could be a limit on consumables or something 12:38:15 -!- bullock has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:38:23 like win with less than x consumables used 12:38:36 Arguably, it could even be used to enforce some kind of atheistic conduct. 12:38:41 actually that's uninteresting cause of EW/EA etc 12:38:48 maybe for just potions it could be 12:38:50 DrKe: yeah, potions are more interesting that way 12:38:55 Lasty_: could give Ru the Veh banner from last tourney 12:39:14 (which was about not using potions/scrolls for part of the game) 12:39:19 ru gives you a healing and magic potion ability anyway 12:39:42 Is there an atheistic conduct banner at present? 12:39:44 so it could be something like get to l:8 without using more than e.g. 10 potions, get a rune, win 12:39:48 for t1, t2, t3 12:39:54 Lasty_: yes, trog banner 12:40:08 giving ru that would make sense too 12:40:55 i think we had agreed that the potion/scroll one was going to go to ru once it hit stable :) 12:40:58 ru is an easy god for banner flavor :) 12:41:21 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:27 we just need a veh one 12:42:22 oh on the topic of gods hitting stable 12:42:29 dpeg: did you see my thoughts on duplication from the other day? 12:42:42 "Let it all end in hellfire" -- use Dispater's staff to kill XYZ? 12:42:55 That doesn't really scale well 12:43:00 wheals: sounds like a good temple entrance to avoid for a while :) 12:43:14 unfortunately you ruined shadow traps :( 12:43:43 what a sham 12:44:18 MarvinPA: yes, and I would really like to keep it! Because I think the underlying issue is wrath, I sent a c-r-d email with Gozag wrath ideas. 12:44:38 i think it's still a pretty problematic ability regardless of the wrath issues 12:44:38 Fannar blocks the acid. 12:44:38 _The acid corrodes Fannar's equipment! 12:44:47 heh 12:44:47 and i thought this would never actually happen in a real game :P 12:44:55 cshield? 12:44:56 MarvinPA: I honestly don't see the problem :O 12:45:15 the fact that it's available immediately means it really really strongly multiplies early lucky finds 12:45:20 i guess 12:45:29 i didn't actually know he had that 12:45:30 which just makes things boring 12:45:38 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:45:41 MarvinPA: give an example, please 12:45:52 +6 ring of foo 12:46:06 like, it's obviously much more useful to use it as soon as possible 12:46:23 even if you could get better stuff by waiting, later on you don't need the help as much 12:46:49 I know, but I think it is in general not clear at all on what to use it early. Two scrolls of blinking? 12:47:19 And people who want to duplicate one really good item (like +6 slayer) and then leave can be caught with appropriate wrath... 12:47:26 i think it's often pretty obvious in any individual game 12:47:40 I think that's where our mismatch comes from. It's never for me. 12:48:05 MarvinPA: what are some of the most abusive duplication uses you've seen? 12:48:23 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:30 well the abuse currently comes from the nonexistent wrath 12:48:34 i just think it's boring# 12:48:47 wow, lair:5 fire crab 12:48:48 <3 12:49:03 which is why I sent that c-r-d mail ... we're running in circles, heck, we are duplicating the discussiom :) 12:49:14 See, I'm with you there -- I found it boring too. I didn't even use it in my Gozag games. I can see the potential for abuse, tho. 12:49:44 MarvinPA: I agreed it might be boring for me if I always knew what to use it on. Since I don't, it's an interesting decision for me. 12:49:50 (and I didn't use it because it never seemed like a good idea to use it) 12:50:08 my problem with it that i'm trying to bring up here is nothing to do with the wrath, that's an entirely separate thing 12:50:10 Lasty_: tbh I just forgot that it existed (as did many other people that i talked to about it) 12:50:31 i just think that once the wrath issue is fixed it will still be an uninteresting ability 12:50:33 PleasingFungus: also true. I think the main problem is that you just don't need two of most items in the game, including almost all of the best ones. 12:50:37 MarvinPA: don't agree about "entirely" but I think I understand what you mean 12:50:47 solution: dual-wielding! 12:50:50 Lasty_: you know it currently duplicates stacks? 12:50:54 wheals: you already did your damage there 12:50:58 PleasingFungus: oh, that got put back in? 12:51:01 ya 12:51:10 PleasingFungus: when I played it, there was no stack dupe 12:51:21 MarvinPA: one of the commonly referenced problems with gozag is that he doesn't help enough early on 12:51:29 I think it's pretty cool to have an immediate effect from your god (especially for a slow builder like the gold god). 12:51:35 PleasingFungus: agreed 12:51:41 Lugonu does the same, if you're banished. 12:52:08 PleasingFungus: the new potion effect is really good on that front, it can solve early troublesome fights. 12:52:23 generally you won't have enough cash to use it for a few levels 12:52:26 in my experience 12:52:35 also I just reallzed that I never used duplication in my current gozag game 12:52:36 ditto, though it may have changed recently 12:52:38 should probably do that 12:53:03 I have a UI question/complaint/advice 12:53:12 UbAh: what is it? 12:53:34 something that has been bugging me all week. when a monster is seen but steps out of view same turn. Why cant I know where he was? 12:53:42 or is there a command I am missing 12:53:58 if I saw him I should know where I saw him 12:54:04 Hmm, that's come up before. Wasn't there a patch for that at some point? 12:54:15 I thought elliptic did something about that at some point 12:54:19 possibly that was invisible monsters 12:54:41 similar case 12:55:17 or if its not supposed to be that you saw him but barely are aware of it you could change it to you hear something 12:55:25 sry bad wording 12:55:53 I mean if it is a game mechanic to not know the wording should be changed, you hear a * would fit more 12:56:53 also its been a while since I more than lurked so i hope everyone is doing great 12:56:56 -!- fiq is now known as FIQ 12:57:11 I don't think it's an intentional game mechanic; rather, it's a product of a limitation on how the game displays monsters. Ideally we'd leave a symbol where the monster was spotted to indicate where it went. That's not really possible in console, tho, unless I'm failing to think of an adequate symbol . . . 12:57:22 how does console handle invisible monsters 12:57:27 the 'seen invisible monster' thing 12:57:36 displays them as { -- or is it {? 12:57:37 you get an outline-ish thing 12:57:38 er } 12:57:42 oh console 12:57:45 sry 12:57:58 but invis monsters are easy -- you know the correct position 12:58:18 this case requires us to display something where the monster isn't, ideally pointing to where the monster is 12:58:20 does console show remembered monsters? 12:58:52 webtiles map shows where I saw a monster if i run away faster than it 12:59:09 I figure this could be handled the same way 12:59:22 I think that console does not do that, but I could be misremembering 13:00:24 of course it does 13:00:38 a darkgrey letter 13:00:43 thanks 13:01:01 I couldn't picture it for some reason 13:01:04 I don't know about pointing to where the monster is 13:01:16 that seems like an unnecessary complication 13:01:33 I suppose we could instead display a darkgrey symbol in the tile the monster moved to 13:01:54 huh 13:02:54 Lasty_: we don't show that if the monster was in sight and then moves out of sight 13:03:24 IMO the best solution to this would be if you just didn't get a message if a monster moves in and out of los on the same turn 13:03:30 yeah if its same turn map doesnt know 13:03:41 but if you move out of range map remembers 13:03:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:51 which is odd feeling 13:03:51 getting the timing right for this is hard though (which is why we haven't done this) 13:04:39 whats the trigger for the map showing the dark grey? 13:04:50 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:27 if the monster was there when you last saw it, so to the best of your knowledge it is still there 13:05:48 -!- MgDark has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:17 I'm not sure exactly how we know how to remove the dark grey monster in situations where a monster is chasing you at edge of LoS 13:06:35 it doesnt remove 13:06:37 elliptic: I agree the message always causes confusion, maybe best to hide it. 13:07:10 hmm hiding it seems like a bit of a difficulty change though 13:07:40 if early game you see an orc priest and they step away you behave differently than if it was a rat 13:07:53 or a centaur 13:08:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:08:55 well this is a fairly rare occurrence on most chars 13:09:22 dpeg: the problem is that you don't know whether the monster is going to step out of sight again without doing anything before the next player turn until other monsters have acted too 13:09:31 -!- Tux[Qyou] has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:43 elliptic: I see. Isn't there sometimes a visual glitch, too? 13:10:17 dpeg: if you get a -more- due to messages while the monster is on-screen then you can see it even if it then steps offscreen, if that's what you mean 13:10:29 that's pretty rare obviously 13:12:58 I guess if we are just talking about the situation in which you step in sight of a monster and then the monster steps out of sight then it might be possible to make things work right 13:13:19 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:13:19 could there be an option flag to force more prompt before monster move? 13:13:24 there's also the situation in which the monster steps in and out of sight before the player gets a turn, I forget how we handle that 13:13:26 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:27 nah noone would use that 13:14:41 anyway getting these things right is difficult and I don't know that much about what the code currently looks like 13:15:24 elliptic: yeah, I know we don't show it if the monster steps out of sight, but I'm saying we could and maybe should 13:17:07 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 13:17:08 Lasty_: so you always know which direction a monster stepped out of sight? hm 13:17:14 elliptic: yeah 13:17:32 I mean, it makes sense, it's useful, and it doesn't seem particularly game-breaking 13:17:48 so the main objection I have to that is that it means that the monster might be offscreen in 80x24 13:18:13 so 80x24 players might not be able to see the indicator without using X 13:18:29 right, though that applies to current behaviors where we show remembered monsters right now 13:18:39 -!- SomeStupidGuy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:47 sure, but those monsters were onscreen at some point 13:18:56 and the message would prompt you to use X 13:19:01 yeah 13:19:10 because you saw a monster so you know ok lets look at map 13:19:13 it's probably fine given that this is a fairly rare situation 13:19:31 elliptic: the monsters were onscreen in every case, just the game didn't do you the courtesy of letting you know in one of the cases 13:19:51 thats how it feels to me lastly 13:19:52 Lasty_: I mean physically in your terminal window :P 13:19:55 lasty* 13:19:56 sry 13:21:00 Lasty_: as in, this would place a remember monster indicator offscreen sometimes for a monster that you've never seen aside from the message 13:21:24 but your char did see it 13:21:28 I do think it is rare enough that it is fine, but it _is_ different from when you have an orc onscreen and then move away 13:21:32 even if you didnt 13:21:38 UbAh: yes we understand 13:21:39 elliptic: yeah, it's true, but that's sort of the point: your character saw it, but the game decided not to show it. This allows for the possibility of the player knowing what the character knows. 13:22:33 Lasty_: yeah, I just worry about things that require pressing X to know about 13:22:33 sry elliptic just weighing in 13:22:43 Lasty_: but in this case I think it is fine 13:22:46 elliptic: yeah, I get that. 13:24:43 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:09 Lasty_: hm, how would this interact with not knowing what the feature is on the out-of-sight square? 13:25:09 elliptic: when we switch to squarelos an extra square should fit in 80x24 :) 13:26:13 I guess it would work given that detected monsters work 13:26:24 on squares of unknown features 13:26:28 wheals: good point :) 13:26:48 yeah 13:26:55 Lasty_: okay this is good since it will make me want to code squarelos :P 13:26:59 hahaha 13:27:05 everyone wins! 13:27:43 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:27:46 time for another try? 13:28:03 square los? hows that gonna be? 13:28:05 perhaps nobody is actually opposed to squarelos these days? 13:28:30 dpeg: I think people are fine with at least trying it out again 13:28:35 UbAh: changes LOS metric from Euclid to Chebyshev 13:28:48 I had a shot of implementing squarelos the other day 13:28:50 didn't get very far 13:29:13 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:29:14 managed to get a square LOS for terrain with the old circular LOS for monsters. extremely confusing. then it crashed 13:29:17 elliptic: I definitely am. I forgot what was problematic about square LOS (kilobyte had a point) but the current inconsistencies are really annoying. Also: the drama potential! :) 13:29:49 over my head dpeg 13:30:02 iirc the main objections are (1) aesthetics and (2) it makes it slightly more advantageous to move diagonally if you want to maximize # of squares explored per turn (this is already the case, but it's moreso with squarelos?) 13:30:03 it's a fair amount of work to implement but certainly doable unless the code has gotten a lot worse since the last time I implemented it 13:30:17 UbAh: your light area in the game will be a square, not an approximated cirle 13:30:33 PleasingFungus: ah, many thanks! (Scrap (1) of course. :) 13:30:34 oh haha thanks for the dumbed down version 13:30:43 google was just confusing me more 13:31:02 elliptic: I was going off the old squarelos branch (the one from 4 years ago), but unsurprisingly it's rotted quite badly. I don't know that the code is worse, but it's *different* and I'm not familiar with most of the relevant sections 13:31:08 UbAh: circle los is problematic for example when it comes to spell ranges. 13:31:34 you guys still have a couple of hours to get squarelos into 0.16!!! 13:31:42 hours? 13:31:52 PleasingFungus: yeah 13:31:53 lemme jam alwaysmulch in there too :p 13:31:54 dpeg: hm? 13:32:07 feature freeze day 13:32:08 dpeg: I didn't realize that we had an official feature freeze time 13:32:10 though yeah 13:32:15 IMO this should be announced somewhere? since yeah 13:32:25 haha 13:32:26 (or was it and I just missed it) 13:32:28 c-r-d? 13:32:33 it was announced on irc!!! 13:32:36 It hasn't been announced outside this channel that I saw 13:32:37 I didn't notice it on c-r-d if it was 13:32:42 it wasn't on c-r-d, no 13:32:54 That was a suggestion for where it should be announced :p 13:33:03 PleasingFungus: didn't *you* Feature Freeze Tuesday? :) 13:33:11 it was wheals' idea but I agreed 13:33:35 probably should have mentioned it on c-r-d but tbh I forgot it existed 13:33:47 anyway we usually aren't 100% strict about the edges of the freezes so I imagine it will be fine... but someone should send a c-r-d mail about such things yes 13:33:49 -!- __miek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:34:04 * dpeg now wonders if anybody ever read the Gozag mail. HIS wrath will be horrific! 13:34:22 * geekosaur looks for a picture of the vw beetle with license plate "FEATURE" with snow on it, for an appropriate macro... :p 13:34:27 -!- Marbit has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:33 dpeg: I read it. IIRC it looked pretty good. 13:34:42 aha, thank you 13:35:33 I didn't speak up because I don't think I'm the Gozag target audience so I figured I'd let others chime in. 13:36:13 I have been liking him in trunk 13:36:29 got my 1st guy with 3 runes 13:36:39 he likes to starve me though 13:36:43 OK, sent 13:36:45 dpeg: I wonder how much gold you get from Orc with this wrath idea 13:36:57 Should be 0, right? 13:37:14 Oh, except a lot of random crap could turn into piles of 1 gold 13:37:18 Lasty_: 1 gold per orc weapon/armour, yeah 13:37:23 hmm 13:37:41 If it scales on item value well, it should mostly take the plate armour and branded weapons 13:38:01 oh, it doesn't apply to every item 13:38:11 that's better I guess 13:38:15 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:23 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:39:04 dpeg: it looks good, though using monetary value of items for this sort of thing can be a little problematic sometimes (see: jiyva piety in orc being ridiculous) 13:39:21 Hey devs, could you check a couple vaults I sent to mantis? : ) 13:39:24 Its been four months since I sent them and it would be nice to know if they are ok or if there is something that needs to be changed about them. 13:39:35 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9084&nbn=3#bugnotes 13:39:43 I don't know how bad implementation is likely to be too, probably it isn't bad though 13:39:49 I remember those vaults 13:40:39 +PleasingFungus: is there a big objection? are they ok? 13:40:47 I'm not a vaultsmith, sorry 13:40:54 grunt, wheals, gammafunk are all vaultsmen 13:41:04 Marbit: I'm not a vaultmaker, so I don't really know what good looks like, but fwiw, the ogre should probably be patrolling. 13:41:06 what? 13:41:09 likewise hangedman (but he's not really around), evilmike (doubly so), and I don't know who else vaults 13:41:10 oh 13:41:17 actually I don't know why I included you in that list 13:41:42 maybe I was thinking of the other developer whose name starts with 'w' 13:41:49 so he's not at vault? 13:42:05 also not a vault person but I know what we've thrown around the idea of removing/modifying stair vaults like the second one in the past 13:42:10 I forget exactly why though 13:42:34 Lasty_: why having it patrol? 13:42:35 (vaults that you can only access via stairs) 13:42:54 Marbit: or else it will usually leave the bridge and ruin the theme 13:43:32