00:00:54 Stable (0.15) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-b1-46-gf5624f1 00:03:01 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:24 ever had days where you spent five hours deciphering what the hell someone is singing because the currently available lyrics sheets are wrong and bad 00:03:40 ...no 00:03:47 you are a fortunate son 00:04:22 -!- Brannock__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:05:18 "skill focus = false" doesn't disable focus on the exp pot menu, I assume that's intentional? 00:05:40 -!- joy199 is now known as joy1999 00:06:05 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:08 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.16-a0-77-g708f960 (34) 00:09:32 -!- Sgeo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:00 -!- Sovek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:11:26 -!- markgo` has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:13:18 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:13:55 so someone thought that they'd given porcupine form -3 str, and tree form +10 strength 00:14:30 when in actuality they gave porcupine form +3 str and tree form +0 str 00:14:44 sadly, just 0 for both 00:15:50 %git d2c2aaab 00:15:51 07kilobyte02 * 0.12-a0-1542-gd2c2aaa: Bad transformations: enums, messages, gear restrictions. 10(2 years, 6 months ago, 10 files, 214+ 13-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d2c2aaaba38c 00:16:07 this bug has been here literally since they were added 00:16:07 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:15 *nice!* 00:17:54 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:42 ............ 00:19:48 correction: the stats were in three places 00:19:52 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:20:26 -!- crate__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:21:00 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21:03 -!- TS__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:31 -!- ProzacElf_ is now known as ProzacElf 00:23:19 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:47 -!- TS__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:04 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37:44 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38:57 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:02 -!- Sky__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:40:43 I'm still laughing at the treeform +10 str thing 00:42:30 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:43:48 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:58 -!- niteshade is now known as grit 00:44:00 -!- EugeneJudo has quit [Client Quit] 00:44:53 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:43 -!- rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:54 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:56 -!- rast-- is now known as rast 00:49:00 -!- rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:55:57 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:59:14 -!- VitaminB5 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:59:39 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:51 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 34.0a1/20140802030201]] 01:05:56 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Using leafChat 2] 01:07:04 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:29:22 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:45:54 -!- Letchik has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:45:54 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:54:52 -!- st_ has quit [] 02:03:35 -!- Davens has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:07:29 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:32 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 02:14:50 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:18:03 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:07 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:18:48 Stable (0.15) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-b1-46-gf5624f1 02:19:06 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:27:14 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.16-a0-77-g708f960 (34) 02:28:22 -!- rossi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:32:42 -!- kait_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:32 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-ng.org/] 05:38:42 -!- archaeo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:41:12 -!- eb has quit [] 05:45:40 Some slimes spawned in one of the Slime:6 Vaults 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8855 by nago 05:55:49 Slimes found inside Slime:6 Vault 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8856 by archaeo 05:57:43 -!- archaeo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:58:04 -!- rossi_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 06:00:12 -!- pentax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:01:05 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:01:05 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:15 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:02:22 -!- rast- is now known as rast 06:04:33 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:33 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:09:16 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:15:02 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:14 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 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[Quit: Leaving] 07:47:47 -!- ackack has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:47:50 -!- warrigal2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:59:55 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:12:00 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:13:46 -!- AGinsberg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:10 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:14:52 !messages 08:14:53 No messages for Lasty_. 08:18:04 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:07 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:27:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:12 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:28:28 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:36:53 -!- grit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:18 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:42:45 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:57 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:45 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:18 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:19 -!- warrigal2 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:48:06 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:50:59 -!- TS__ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:22 -!- stanzill has quit [Changing host] 08:53:39 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:59:03 -!- TS__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:06 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:01:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:36 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:34 -!- mamgar_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:40 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:44 -!- TS__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:32 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:58 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:35 -!- dougsko_ is now known as dougsko 09:26:10 -!- dougsko has quit [Changing host] 09:29:21 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 09:36:49 -!- ZRN has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:37:23 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:57 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:17 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:48 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:09:56 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:14:53 -!- rohan_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:17:21 ontoclasm: in the wanderer minor book patch, should we attempt to make the wanderer memorize a level 1 spell during character setup if one is available? It looks like we didn't do that previously when giving books, and now it's possible for there to be multiple level 1 spells memorizable. 10:17:41 Put another way, should we avoid forcing the player to memorize 2 level 1 spells, just in case they don't want to? 10:17:55 well, if it were up to me 10:18:01 i think i would say memorize only one 10:18:01 Necromancers don't start w/ animate skeleton memorized . . . 10:18:22 and prioritize the one from the major book, if there is a major book 10:18:55 In that case, I think each time we add a book, we'll check if a spell is memorized, and if not, memorize a L1 spell from that book. 10:18:56 i mean, it's possible to have only 1 spell slot 10:19:00 ahh 10:19:05 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:19:12 if you have <0.5 spellcasting 10:19:22 Which on a wanderer is extra-possible. 10:19:26 yeah 10:19:31 good call 10:19:54 i think all actual book backgrounds have some spellcasting and thus some slots to spare, but wn likely won't 10:20:32 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:29 yeah 10:21:46 And you'd need -5 in spellcasting for 1 level of spellcasting to result in <0.5 actual slots 10:21:49 er 10:21:53 0.5 actual skill 10:23:11 Do you know of a place in code where we loop through spells in a book? 10:23:51 hm, maybe the code that lists them when you read the book? 10:23:56 ah, good call 10:26:13 -!- rossi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:49 <|amethyst> If there are multiple spells available and the player has only one slot, starting with one memorised is close to strictly worse than starting with neither 10:27:13 <|amethyst> (I say close because it saves turns) 10:27:25 yeah but those precious turns 10:27:29 what if the d:1 gnoll comes around the corner when you're memorizing...! 10:27:36 <|amethyst> more precious than amnesia scrolls? 10:27:40 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 10:28:05 <|amethyst> I guess it doesn't take long to get a second spell level though 10:28:09 <|amethyst> s/level/slot/ 10:28:39 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:30:04 !send |amethyst spells 10:30:04 Sending spells to |amethyst. 10:32:29 -!- siepu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:17 -!- Tenda has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:20 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 10:42:29 -!- stanzill is now known as stanzwecha 10:49:28 |amethyst: what would you recommend? starting with no spells memorized? 10:49:50 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 10:51:01 -!- Kolbur has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:54:10 Lasty_: you could just do whatever the main book's normal class does 10:54:22 and never start with anything fromthe minibook memorized 10:55:13 then I have to a book to job lookup, since the jobs have hardcoded job->spell lookups. 10:55:43 and, as |amethyst points out, that might still be strictly inferoir 10:55:52 *inferior 10:58:18 -!- radinms has quit [] 11:01:10 mm 11:02:54 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:27 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 34.0a1/20140802030201]] 11:07:27 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:15:36 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:18 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:25:21 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:10 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 11:29:20 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:15 is it *bad* for it to be strictly inferior? we start our caster backgrounds with spells memorized, after all - do we want the wanderers to be stronger? 11:31:32 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:37:13 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:38:35 -!- Blakmane has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:41:46 -!- doubtofbuddha_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:45:29 -!- SpectralFremen has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:46:26 Fair point, and even aside from that, I wonder if the gain in convenience is worth the slight inferiority 11:50:14 -!- TS__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50:41 -!- Kadarus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:51:23 -!- TS__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:34 -!- None is now known as Guest14693 11:55:36 -!- Philonous has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:43 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:45 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:48 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:58:33 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59:51 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:01:37 -!- tswett has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:02:24 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:02:33 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:07:19 -!- Dorvarich has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:07:30 -!- wat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:53 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:06 Stable (0.15) branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-b1-46-gf5624f1 12:09:02 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:47 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:10 -!- dienosore has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:19:44 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.16-a0-77-g708f960 (34) 12:34:58 -!- Valarioth has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:36:20 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:37:38 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:50 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/sordz.png 12:38:24 are these distinct enough? 12:38:43 -!- Guest14693 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:39:21 sord...... 12:40:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:40:16 mmm. not sure, tbh. maybe? 12:40:23 -!- rast- is now known as rast 12:40:29 of course, it'll all be moot when we bring back triple swords......................... 12:40:40 haha 12:40:50 well, that's a great sword, not a claymore 12:41:04 claymores have that double-crossguard thing going 12:41:24 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:31 what's the sword with the hole in it? 12:41:42 bastard? 12:41:42 bastard 12:41:45 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:48 double swords! 12:42:10 you can see all the stuff roc made: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8847 12:42:40 oh, yeah, I see the double-crossguard now 12:43:06 that artefact greatsword looks really silly 12:43:27 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:16 -!- rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:40 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:47 -!- rast-- is now known as rast 12:45:04 hah 12:46:07 unfortunately it's hard for me to edit roc's tiles since it's painfully obvious which parts i touched xD 12:46:15 rip 12:46:19 same with bloax 12:46:22 imo make some hand crossbow sprites 12:46:31 oh yeah 12:46:41 i was thinking about those earlier, i think i know how to draw them 12:46:54 (also i watched a dude play deus ex) 12:47:16 hand crossbows are good for a silent takedown. 12:47:24 fr: gep gun unrand 12:47:28 (I guess that's Hellfire?) 12:47:33 -!- rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:48:18 hah 12:48:35 lock on rocket launcher 12:49:06 doomrl is that way ---> 12:49:17 -!- rockygargoyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:21 unless you want to port revenants into crawl 12:49:45 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 67-96 | AC/EV: 8/12 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1926 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d23), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), 04esc:blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 12:49:45 %??revenant 12:49:56 no missiles, sadly 12:50:16 eye beams are nearly as good 12:50:18 well I guess crawl already has homing missiles in the form of IOODs 12:50:20 or wait no that's uh 12:50:22 eidolons 12:50:31 Kvaak: they even explode! 12:50:34 (when hitting other oods) 12:50:37 only if they collide :( 12:50:52 You blow up the cyberdemon!!! 12:51:04 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:34 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:12 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:45 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:13 -!- rockygargoyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:37 -!- rockygargoyle_ has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:54 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:01:41 I'm having trouble compiling crawl 13:01:52 it says makefile is missing 13:02:19 rockygargoyle: what command are you typing, and in which folder? 13:02:44 and when using git submodule update it says "fatal: needed a single revision" 13:03:23 git submodule update and make TILES=y 13:04:12 what should I do? 13:04:22 -!- rockygargoyle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:05:16 What directory are you in? 13:05:31 ok, in the folder 'crawl' do git submodule update --init 13:05:38 iashol 13:05:50 you have to make from the source folder 13:05:54 crawl-ref/source 13:06:41 ok 13:07:21 okay, thanks! 13:09:04 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:18:41 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:25:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:28:21 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:29:07 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:19 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:37:53 -!- rockygargoyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:03 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:51 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:08 -!- eki has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:48:57 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:51:34 -!- Vizer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:40 -!- happychan has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:55:24 -!- Lumpydoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:00:57 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:59 -!- hurdos has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:06:34 "regen should work like powered by death, giving you a healing bonus based on the number of nearby fresh corpses." 14:07:22 the problem is extended 14:10:11 -!- DaneiTHREE has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:11:23 oh no 14:11:58 why is everyone trying to outdo me in terms of bad ideas 14:12:15 i at least try to make them fun 14:13:11 I'm not convinced it's a bad idea 14:13:26 it would make regen combat-relevant & combat-focused, which is Good 14:13:32 could also fix the "ring of regen" problem 14:15:27 also completely useless in places where there are no corpses 14:16:01 those 24 hell floors are gonna be fun 14:16:27 a legitimate response is "get fucked, players" 14:16:34 alternately, you could make Crawl Opinions-Haver Nrook extremely happy 14:16:41 12:16 Bloax | those 24 hell floors are gonna be fun 14:16:41 and make non-summoned demonds drop corpses 14:16:45 that's a much broader change, of course 14:16:49 condense the hells into 3 floor branche 14:16:51 tia 14:16:56 read: nah 14:17:03 you're right 14:17:07 they need 27 floors 14:17:09 each 14:17:17 20/24 hell branches have 0 relevance to my games 14:17:28 abyss + vestibule + pan + 24 hell floors = 27 14:17:29 done 14:17:50 except there are 24 hell floors if you don't count the bottom floors 14:17:53 where is your god now 14:18:23 also I wonder if zin's hell-effect blocking should be weakened 14:18:30 zin is already a very very strong god in hells 14:18:39 and hells are really shit without hell effects 14:18:41 well, the point of hell is that you explicitly are not supposed to clear floors 14:18:49 oh woops i meant 14:18:51 24/28 14:18:53 w/e 14:18:55 because without hell effects, there's no reason not to clear floors 14:18:57 right doy 14:19:01 so the floors should not exist 14:19:20 that is an interesting opinion, but an extremely wrong one 14:19:29 the floors are there to be desperately sprinted through 14:19:30 no, i mean that hell needs more floors because otherwise the branches will be way way too short 14:19:41 oh 14:19:43 and to make there a real cost to bailing from a hell:$ 14:19:43 they are not remotely dangerous enough 14:19:46 for me to sprint through 14:19:52 there's no reason to give the branches three floors instead of just one, for instance 14:19:54 the hell effects are there to make you sprint 14:20:03 [21:19:37] the floors are there to be desperately sprinted through 14:20:11 if you have to sprint through you probably can't do the rune floor? 14:20:12 you can't desperately sprint through them 14:20:18 read: well, yeah, hell effects do need work 14:20:21 yeag 14:20:22 but that's a separate issue 14:20:35 I like the idea, at least. 14:20:36 because on the majority of them the stairs are hidden in some godforsaken part of the labyrinthine map 14:20:42 there seems to be a trend lately of "this mechanic doesn't work well, so the obvious answer is to just remove it" 14:20:50 and this is a great theme to have for 24 floors in the game 14:20:57 every game you want to do the hell branches 14:21:06 yes, that is correct. it is great 14:21:06 remove too many and the game just gets boring 14:21:15 doy: the correct response should be to fix, not to remove! 14:21:20 this is what I have been arguing in general 14:21:21 PleasingFungus: exactly 14:21:43 I mean there is a limited space for mechanics and some are not worth saving - weight was never a thing that needed to exist 14:21:47 for example 14:21:58 sure, although even that has repercussions 14:22:04 -!- tswett has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:22:07 because of stackable items 14:22:22 i think the current state is not particularly great either in that sense 14:22:38 well, it does mean that the steel brand is meaningless and bad 14:22:40 design-wise 14:22:58 and large rocks need reform (but they probably needed that anyway, tbh) 14:23:02 what about the steel brand? 14:23:28 right now it's just "Better Ammo" 14:23:39 it used to be "Better Ammo that you could carry much less of" 14:23:53 well, it's also "rarer ammo" 14:23:55 but yeah, that's true 14:24:01 large rocks are a bigger issue though 14:24:04 -!- Cerpin has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:11 scrolls and potions are also a bigger issue now that item destruction is gone 14:24:38 both things that made you not want to carry around like 30 healing potions have been removed 14:24:39 item destruction destruction is something that I still have mixed feelings about 14:24:45 and i don't know that that's a good thing 14:24:55 wrt 30 healing potions, I'm not convinced that's a big deal 14:24:56 like 14:25:00 since you could generally carry Enough before 14:25:05 there's no real benefit to wands of healing anymore 14:25:10 and it just means less traveling back and forth to stashes 14:25:11 or wands of teleport 14:25:25 wands of healing are rechargable, which is a big deal, since there is generally a pretty limited supply of !hw 14:25:27 (also mummies!!!) 14:25:27 the huge benefit before was that they weren't affected by item destruction 14:25:37 yeah, mummies are an edge case though 14:25:51 though I was talking about adding a "no drinking potions" effect to ice cave &/or cocytus 14:25:57 just as a global thing 14:26:06 that could be interesting 14:26:18 perhaps also a similar scroll thing for volcano &/ geh 14:26:21 I had to go move a piano but, on the topic of "remove is worse than fix" I agree. I just didn't understand that hell effects were intended to be a pressure to Keep Moving. 14:26:27 hmmm 14:26:30 I thought they were just "make bad situations and resting worse" 14:26:33 read: don't drop the piano! 14:26:41 i wonder if limiting stacks to some size based on their previous weight would help 14:26:45 like 14:26:53 you can only carry stacks of 10 potions of a type 14:26:57 why? 14:27:00 and if you have more, it's another stack 14:27:01 Also: Rework steel ammo into more fragile, more damaging ammo 14:27:14 like, what does that help? 14:27:33 well, it keeps people from carrying around like 50 large rocks 14:27:58 imho the solution to "people are carrying around too many large rocks" is "decrease large rocks / mulch rate" 14:28:02 probably by setting mulch rate to 1 14:28:18 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:26 i think that would be a lot less interesting 14:28:32 large rock throwing hunters are fun 14:28:32 would it be? 14:28:37 and that would make them pretty much impossible 14:29:00 yes, of course. this would turn large rocks into a limited superweapon, and let them still use javelins/tomahawks/etc, just like other races, but with huge strength damage bonuses 14:29:15 i guess 14:29:23 relatedly, returning): 14:29:25 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:27 increasing mulch rate to 1 globally would break returning; I think that is enough of a shame that it is one of the reasons I am not sure whether to press for the idea. large rocks don't get returning normally, though 14:31:52 -!- Sharkman1231 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:00 oh, you mean globally, not just for large rocks? 14:32:17 well 14:32:22 for this discussion, I'm just talking about large rocks 14:32:38 making all ammo automulch would make hunters really annoying to play, i think 14:32:43 well 14:32:58 the idea is that you'd multiply stack generation size by the inverse of the current mulch rate 14:33:04 and then tweak that as you see fit 14:33:33 it'll still require a lot more inventory management 14:33:37 why? 14:33:56 you'll be constantly switching ammo types and such as you use up old ammo and find new ammo 14:34:19 would you? you don't do that now 14:34:23 autopickup_thrown works pretty well now though 14:34:39 and you'd have the same number of "shots" of each type of ammo in the new system as the old (at least until drop rates are adjusted) 14:35:16 weird side effects would be (1) kobolds with curare would basically not run out (2) you wouldn't care about shooting at stuff over water (3) it breaks returning (4) might cause "analysis paralysis" since each shot has a guaranteed cost (5) large numbers look funny (c.f. 1k stone inventory) 14:35:34 also probably some other stuff 14:36:09 yeah, being able to preserve ammo that you like with enchant weapon is a nice feature 14:36:15 uhhhhhhhh 14:36:21 that isn't a feature? 14:36:25 -!- rockygargoyle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:36:25 that was a feature, several years ago 14:36:28 it was awful 14:36:29 or did that go away too 14:36:31 yeah 14:36:31 sigh 14:36:32 like, the worst 14:36:36 lmao doy 14:36:41 I am kind of shocked that anyone liked it 14:36:51 but I do understand why you're arguing about inventory management, now 14:37:04 it made it a lot easier to not have to care about the 20 different ammo types that you find 14:37:15 back when your inventory was filled with shit like "J: 5 +1 orcish arrows of frost" 14:37:48 ammo enchantments are gone, racial weapons/armour/ammo is gone. it's only brands, now 14:37:53 it is true that i haven't gotten around to playing a hunter recently 14:37:55 which makes it pretty feasible to manage 14:38:02 doy: it's actually fun now!!!!! 14:38:07 heh 14:38:11 I played a cehu in 0.8 and nearly got carpal tunnel syndrome 14:38:15 it was fucking awful 14:38:22 It's definitely more fun than it used to be 14:38:22 i played a sehu back in like 0.3 14:38:30 I still hate picking up ammo, tho 14:38:35 it was... definitely scummy 14:38:35 (: 14:38:47 not that bad once you get in a groove with it though 14:38:51 also, for my earlier list, (6) no distinction between tactical and strategic ammo shortage (relevant for ammo which is currently in short supply - curare, penetration maybe?) 14:39:00 Using autoexplore to do it seems good until you run into the many situations where you want to pick up your ammo before exploring carefully 14:39:25 yeah that's annoying 14:39:57 yeah, seems like an "autoexplore to pickup" thing would be a useful feature to have in general 14:40:18 not just for ammo, but for other stuff too 14:40:23 I know I've seen it discussed before 14:40:29 PleasingFungus: whatever happened to the idea of stack size limits 14:40:35 ontoclasm: it was tried 14:40:37 they were bad 14:40:40 hm 14:40:43 and accomplished nothing 14:40:45 bad why? 14:40:58 and i added 'o' on the map view to show the next tile that autoexplore wants to go to 14:40:59 I'd have to grep through the logs. iirc it caused interface pain 14:41:04 which is about 30% of a solution 14:41:12 but an actual different functionality would be nice too 14:41:14 lots of "you can't pick this up. continue y/n"? when autoexploring around large rocks 14:41:33 e.g. in depths (stone giants) 14:41:33 PleasingFungus: well, clearly it should split into multiple stacks 14:41:39 rather than not be able to be picked up 14:41:49 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 14:42:23 that still causes pain with full inventories, but that's an existing problem 14:42:34 I need to add a mechanic to make it bad to have a full inventory 14:42:46 burdening? 14:42:48 (: 14:42:53 that's what i meant, if you want a billion arrows you can but they take up multiple slots 14:42:56 to align the player's interests (having a "swap slot", getting prompted less) with the game mechanics 14:43:10 ontoclasm: what would that accomplish? 14:43:17 i guess i'm just being concerned that inventory management is just getting simplified into basically nothingness 14:43:38 i mean - what's the argument against removing inventory slot caps at this point, other than interface issues? 14:43:52 idk, now that i think about it it's not really better 14:44:01 there is a view in the dev team that it is interface issues and only that 14:44:03 that is not my view 14:44:06 really item drops just need to taper off heavily in the mid-late game 14:44:45 ....instead of exploding massively as they do now 14:44:49 PleasingFungus: yeah, that's what worries me 14:44:55 my view is that the inventory should be a tool for limiting the player's tactical options - a set of different choices ("throw tomahawk", "evoke lamp of flame", "quaff resistance") that the player can make 14:45:05 that vision *does not work* as long as the inventory holds both tactical and non-tactical items 14:45:22 the latter including e.g. enchant scrolls, mutate potions, spellbooks 14:45:35 I have a medium-term plan to fix at least the consumables - that may or may not be a 0.16 thing 14:45:45 (by making them not take up inventory slots) 14:45:57 (them = non-tactical consumables) 14:46:14 non-tactical being equipment, for instance? 14:46:15 strategic items -> runes that you can carry arbitrary numbers of in a bag 14:46:31 weapons are tactical, since you swap. likewise jewellery 14:46:40 i guess runes is a bad name since we have runes already 14:46:45 removing runes from the inventory was definitely a positive move 14:47:02 ontoclasm: my current name ideas are 'tablets' and 'incense'. it's bikeshedding tho 14:47:15 seals 14:47:21 a seal of enchant weapon 14:47:31 ontoclasm: would they bark? 14:47:50 damn you i was trying to figure out a joke for that :C 14:47:56 doy: armour is not tactical but is fairly restricted in quantity, so is a smaller problem than non-tactical consumables & spellbooks. also I am not sure how to solve the ui issues with armour 14:48:02 ontoclasm: yeah I just half-assed it 14:48:07 :) 14:48:45 when you pick up a spellbook from the floor it could get copied into Your Spellbook which just has all the spells in it 14:48:53 spellbooks could be made tactical possibly; that might be more interesting than giving up and goldifying them in the way ontoclasm mentioned 14:48:53 anyway, my solution to this currently is that i just don't carry non-tactical stuff around with me 14:48:56 I'm undecided 14:49:01 doy: yeah that's old-style play 14:49:05 it's pretty trivial to just leave them on the floor until you want to use them 14:49:15 yeah but there's no good reason to do that, from a mechanical perspective 14:49:17 it's not just old-style; it saves slots 14:49:41 it wastes turns, but shrug 14:50:09 forcing you to manage tactical and non-tactical in the same inventory is one thing that makes speed runs more difficult 14:50:12 Removing wielded/worn things from the inventory proper and just displaying them as options on the relevant remove screens could work, in that you wouldn't need inventory letters for them 14:50:50 I'm fine with weapons taking inventory slots 14:50:53 not sure about armour 14:51:15 you *could* runify/goldify armour but it feels odd. also it'd be incredibly fucking cluttered very fast 14:51:41 I'd think you'd only want to do that with worn armour, not unworn armour 14:51:43 the issue is that weapons and armour are occasionally tactical 14:51:44 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:52:10 armour shouldn't be tactical - if it is, that's a failure, I think 14:52:17 Armour takes too long to swap to be tactical 14:52:18 hence the armour swap times 14:52:20 yes 14:52:34 eh, things like cloaks and gloves and boots don't take all that long 14:52:40 I ruined that 14:52:43 %git :/wap 14:52:44 07doy02 {|amethyst} * 0.15-b1-14-gea03cb7: prompt for stasis in between swapping amulets too (8708) 10(5 days ago, 3 files, 27+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ea03cb7143be 14:53:00 %git fd3010e7d3e9b 14:53:00 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-2152-gfd3010e: Make armour swapping take a fixed turn count 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 7+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd3010e7d3e9 14:53:13 oh 14:53:15 well then 14:53:53 that's probably a reasonable change overall 14:54:16 if the inventory was purely tactical, you could do stuff like make some races have different numbers of inventory slots (make spriggans/deep elves have fewer than 52 - or make everyone but trolls/ogres...?) 14:54:18 it was never really clear how it worked previously other than "heavy stuff is slow, usually" 14:54:27 yeah it was a weird and slightly buggy formula 14:54:37 it was slightly faster to switch between armour directly than to take one piece off and put another on 14:54:46 well, previously this was handled by weight(: 14:54:46 (by one turn) 14:54:51 welllll 14:54:52 no 14:54:55 it was handled by ac 14:55:02 not even by evp/er, by ac 14:55:09 no, i mean the numbers of inventory slots thing 14:55:13 oh 14:55:24 yes, but it was handled poorly and inconsistently 14:55:36 and the handling created interface frustrations 14:56:32 if the inventory is a proxy for tactical limitations, weight achieved that very very poorly - since an item's weight had no correlation to the tactical utility it provided 14:56:45 it was a verisimilitude feature 14:56:57 the number of slots an item uses won't either 14:57:04 since it'll always be one 14:57:10 except for the useful things, which will be stackable 14:57:13 It wouldn't have to be . . . 14:57:25 fr inventory tetris 14:57:27 tactical... flexibility? sorry, that was phrased poorly 14:57:27 so effectively less than one 14:57:33 tactical options 14:57:46 part of the problem that crawl has is that it gives you far too many options later on 14:57:51 too many items, too many spells 14:58:04 this is mainly an extended problem but it's visible by late-game 14:58:42 it both makes it hard for the designer to challenge the player, and makes it hard for the player to keep track of the options they have available - consider ?fog, curare, etc 14:59:00 I'd kind of like to see evokables / rods become a bit rarer again 14:59:08 rods are already quite rare 14:59:10 i use ?fog quite a bit 14:59:21 i effectively never use evokables or curare 14:59:30 evokables are hilariously good now and you should try them out 14:59:31 since they require training a new skill 14:59:34 Evokables are so good 14:59:35 seriously, they're preposterously strong 14:59:36 yeah, maybe i should 14:59:38 and curare requires no skill 14:59:39 curare takes no skill 14:59:41 which is a problem 14:59:45 well then 14:59:49 the blowgun desperately needs to scale with skill 15:00:05 you can clear most everything up to lair with a blowgun & 0 throwing skill (with poison needles) 15:00:12 also, spider 15:00:32 why do blowguns not use throwing skill again? 15:00:32 making curare scale a bit more with throwing is a good idea, but making it useless without massive skill (how other special needles feel) would be bad 15:00:44 well spiders are much faster than you and hit pretty hard 15:00:46