00:00:31 -!- CSDCMS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:03 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:01 hmm 00:03:47 So wait, ugly things have been buffed to very ugly things 00:03:57 and very ugly things have been buffed to faster dire elephants 00:03:59 ? 00:04:57 nah they're weaker than dire elephants 00:05:00 but faster 00:05:05 so probably more threatening in practice 00:05:16 Yes, MINIATRUE elemental dire elephants 00:05:26 tbf "miniature" is unclear in context; could refer to size or threat 00:05:57 If new ugly things turn out to be to powerful they can be nerfed. 00:06:14 PleasingFungus: Crawl monster size doesn't really exist <_< >_> 00:06:14 also unlike dire elephants, very ugly things tend to exist 00:06:19 ??dire elephant 00:06:19 dire elephant[1/2]: A much stronger {elephant}, this pachyderm hits harder than a death yak, but not as hard as a {hellephant}. 00:06:21 except when it does... 00:06:22 and usually in packs 00:06:28 dire elephant (02Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 95-133 | AC/EV: 13/2 | Dam: 4007(trample), 15 | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 1244 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:06:28 %??dire elephant 00:06:31 hmm 00:06:40 why not make v. uglies like hellephants 00:06:47 hellephant (04Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 141-197 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Dam: 4507(trample), 20, 15 | 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3124 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:06:47 %??hellephant 00:06:51 ...somewhat excessive 00:06:54 Dire elephants are basically harmless 00:06:58 by U 00:07:04 by the time you regularly meet them, yes. 00:07:25 do dire elephants spawn in packs? 00:07:25 although very uglies being hellephant-tier 00:07:29 would underclass 00:07:33 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Spd: 10 | HD: 23 | HP: 104-154 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 22, 17, 13, 903(constrict) | 05demonic, 10doors, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(153), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2969 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 00:07:33 %??tentacled monstrosity 00:07:37 outclass? 00:07:39 oh 00:07:40 poor tmons 00:07:42 buff them too? 00:07:44 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2366-g9e66d4c (34) 00:07:47 not gettin any lovin ;-; 00:07:49 tmons are also harmless 00:07:57 their defense is so bad 00:08:02 i too remember the days they were horrifying creatures 00:08:32 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Spd: 9 | HD: 25 | HP: 109-164 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 22, 17, 13, 3003(constrict) | 05demonic, 10doors, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2138 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 00:08:32 %0.10?Tentacled monstrosity 00:08:38 or at least very hard hitting ones 00:10:13 they were also speed 9 back then and thus irrelevant 00:10:20 %git :/utation 00:10:20 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-2332-g08613ce: Remove fast/slow metabolism mutations from random generation (wheals) 10(3 weeks ago, 3 files, 12+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=08613ce6a090 00:10:29 "30(constrict) 00:10:31 Dang 00:10:53 %0.10??naga warrior 00:10:54 well clearly 00:10:58 red ugly thing (05u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 29-57 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 1104(fire:8-15) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:10:58 %??Ugly thing 00:11:03 they should be like this :^) 00:11:08 naga warrior (02N) | Spd: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | HP: 91-107 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 28, 3003(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(80), 03poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 749 | Sp: poison splash (d16) | Sz: Large | Int: normal. 00:11:08 %0.10?naga warrior 00:11:17 wow this constrict:30 00:11:18 quite powerful 00:11:20 I don't really believe the average player thinks speed 10 or lower monsters are "irrelevant" 00:11:35 you'd be quite right 00:11:40 It's like saying all of snake is irrelevant basically 00:11:43 because you can run from it 00:11:43 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:48 yes 00:11:54 except why would you do that 00:11:54 well you can but you may find it quite annoying to actually extract the rune 00:11:57 I saw a dude die to some beetle as a cefi 00:11:57 but that would be what minqmay would say 00:12:06 despite taking staircases twice 00:12:12 (he managed to get followed) 00:12:25 <|amethyst> the average player has probably never seen a tmons 00:12:25 I died to a goliath beetle zombie 00:12:44 that is sad 00:12:47 the average player is a very nice person. 00:12:54 I took a hatch upstairs and it oneshot me 00:12:57 meanwhile we're hearing things like all speed 10 melee monsters being basically meatbags 00:12:58 oh 00:13:01 lol 00:13:02 less sad then 00:13:19 !lg Bloax killer=goliath_beetle 00:13:20 2. Bloax the Skirmisher (L8 GrBe of Trog), slain by a goliath beetle on D:7 on 2013-10-18 01:24:20, with 1697 points after 2049 turns and 0:15:10. 00:13:27 badzerk there? 00:13:31 must be 00:13:34 !lg Bloax killer=goliath_beetle -log 00:13:34 2. Bloax, XL8 GrBe, T:2049: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20131018-012420.txt 00:13:49 there's this habit of treating each enemy as an isolated feature that is encountered by itself without external interference 00:14:04 when discussing monsters 00:14:15 you can't realy avoid 00:14:16 <|amethyst> ebarrett_: I thought that with proper tactics that was in fact the case 00:14:16 all the monsters 00:14:20 without being a spriggan 00:14:31 because there is some amount of monster density 00:14:32 |amethyst: if you like taking 20 hours per game then yes 00:14:36 <|amethyst> or at least that's the impression I get from listening to good players 00:14:43 imho never listen to good players 00:14:45 <|amethyst> s/good/some good/ 00:14:46 |amethyst: that's what the statler and waldorf gallery will tell you yes 00:14:49 More like when you listen to minqmay 00:14:54 or crate 00:14:57 or dck 00:15:04 and by statler and waldorf I meant minmay and crate yes 00:15:06 <|amethyst> who are the most vocal players when it comes to balance 00:15:12 <|amethyst> particularly here 00:15:17 I find this an amusing description btw 00:15:21 <|amethyst> and in GDD 00:15:34 meanwhile 00:15:37 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:15:40 [07:12:28] <|amethyst> the average player has probably never seen a tmons 00:15:42 ebarrett_: but which one is which? 00:15:56 i find crawl pretty easy at this point 00:16:06 except you probably won't see me playing anywhere near optimally 00:16:15 because i'm actually trying to squeeze fun out of this game 00:16:32 big mistake! 00:16:40 and using extremely scummy tactics would bore me to death 00:16:49 -!- hurdos has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16:57 <|amethyst> Well, that is a problem 00:17:08 Well, I feel like this game is basically like "Once you learn to not make major mistakes, you won't die" 00:17:13 <|amethyst> when you get a benefit from using tactics that bore you to death 00:17:17 So once you learn to not make them, the game isn't too hard 00:17:40 |amethyst: and said players are apparently big abusers of said tactics 00:17:46 also despite people complaining about scummy tactics, imo their benefit is often -extremely- marginal 00:17:55 yes 00:17:58 but as we all know 00:18:03 crawl is all about stacking marginal benefits 00:18:04 so it's basicaly irrelevant 00:18:17 because you have to win every fight 00:18:21 idk i dont think ive thought about stacking a marginal benefit 00:18:36 it makes a slight difference for one fight 00:18:41 now stack that slight difference 00:18:44 over a thousand fights 00:19:16 the benefit is marginal but for a good player the difference between winning every game on automatic and having a brain fart here and there that costs him a few games is also marginal 00:20:08 I feel like past D:8 you need to make largish brain farts 00:20:18 or get really bad luck with consumable spawns 00:20:26 i almost splatted this xbow CeHu^Trog i'm rolling 00:20:33 because i accidentally got surrounded by rats and sheep 00:20:40 that was rather embarassing 00:20:44 Centaur defenses at work 00:20:59 but what do you expect from such a horrifyingly boring scrublord combo 00:21:03 !lg . killer=sheep 00:21:04 1. PleasingFungus the Bludgeoner (L12 OgAK of Lugonu), slain by a sheep on Lair:6 on 2014-07-09 19:42:58, with 19847 points after 17106 turns and 0:51:50. 00:21:11 Ogre defenses at work 00:21:12 white ugly thing (15u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 48-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1712(cold:8-23) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 02cold | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 255 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:21:12 <|amethyst> %??ugly thing 00:21:14 purple very ugly thing (13u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 73-116 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 36 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 910 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 00:21:14 <|amethyst> %??very ugly thing 00:21:18 !lg * killer=sheep 00:21:18 522. styxcanada the Skirmisher (L4 MiFi), slain by a sheep on D:2 (dk_xom_monty_hall) on 2014-07-30 06:57:06, with 119 points after 840 turns and 0:05:33. 00:21:20 I was playing before lunch 00:21:28 no my finest moment 00:21:29 |amethyst: is chei even updated to newuglies 00:21:30 also, hahaha 00:21:35 <|amethyst> just updated 00:21:38 red ugly thing (05u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 29-56 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 1104(fire:8-15) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:21:38 %?ugly thing 00:21:40 holy god 00:21:50 red very ugly thing (04u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 50-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1804(napalm) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 05fire++, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 803 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 00:21:50 %?very ugly thing 00:22:00 purple ugly thing (06u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 47-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 22 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 255 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:22:00 %??purple ugly thing 00:22:06 uh 00:22:07 dire elephant (02Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 95-133 | AC/EV: 13/2 | Dam: 4007(trample), 15 | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 1244 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:22:07 %??dire elephant 00:22:09 hm. I wonder if xp should be adjusted 00:22:12 unknown monster: "Red ugly thing" 00:22:12 %?Red ugly thing 00:22:13 yes 00:22:16 for what 00:22:19 ugly things 00:22:22 Bloaxzorro: your first problem was going with xbows instead of bows as a centuar 00:22:23 Oh 00:22:24 *centaur 00:22:30 Maybe 00:22:38 why go for the ranged weapon with a minimum delay of 10 00:22:38 Lightli: clearly you're underestimating the power of the crossbow 00:22:44 lightli: because i can just run from everything 00:22:47 I probably am 00:22:52 seems incorrect for them to be basically old very ugly things, but with a third the xp 00:22:52 and so the 1.0 delay doesn't matter 00:22:57 but with bows you can kite everything even better 00:23:13 except bows do much less damage 00:23:30 mm. then again, there are enough ugly things that significantly bumping their xp might legit affect xp curves 00:24:01 if anything the extreme xp tightening going on is really punishing newer players 00:24:12 <|amethyst> XP tightening? 00:24:15 haha what 00:24:17 what on earth 00:24:30 bloax, what xp tightening? 00:24:33 oh right depths exists 00:24:34 sorry 00:24:51 i'm just high again 00:24:55 it happens 00:24:57 hm 00:25:04 I'm getting appeals from all sides to bring back triple swords 00:25:06 XP is probably less tight pre depths 00:25:14 since forest dudes got bumped 00:25:19 it seems that triple crossbows have only whetted the people's appetities... 00:25:28 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: as for the XP, if it wouldn't be bad to increase, changing the HD instead of die size could help 00:25:40 white ugly thing (15u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 48-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1712(cold:8-23) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 02cold | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 255 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:25:40 %??Ugly thing 00:25:43 red ugly thing (05u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 29-56 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 1104(fire:8-15) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 00:25:43 %?Ugly thing 00:25:46 we need the pentagonal axe 00:25:47 hm 00:25:50 yeah, that's probably the simplest way to do it 00:25:55 would also bump mr a bit, which might be reasonable 00:26:00 also what exactly are triple crossbows 00:26:01 <|amethyst> *simplest* would be to change the XP mod :) 00:26:06 is it something that fires three bolts in a turn 00:26:11 ??triple crossbow 00:26:11 triple crossbow[1/1]: Like a crossbow, but three times as good! Base damage 23, base/mindelay 23/10. Historically known as a Chuangzi Nu. Not suitable for shaving. 00:26:14 it fires one bolt triple hard!!!! 00:26:16 it's a railgun 00:26:23 without the piercing 00:26:34 ??arbalest 00:26:34 arbalest[1/1]: Crossbow. 18 base damage, 19/10 base/mindelay. Used to just be called 'crossbow'. 00:26:35 3 strings 00:26:40 these things are also good for cracking turtle shells 00:26:42 ok 00:26:50 I was going to suggest having it check AC three times or something 00:26:50 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:26:52 http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/siegeweapons-chuangzinu.html 00:27:08 mostly nerfing it for the hell of it 00:27:19 I literally just nerfed it 00:27:22 %git :/uber 00:27:22 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-2348-gf45ab22: Don't spawn triple crossbows (& greatslings) with uber-egos 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f45ab2234627 00:27:22 good 00:27:28 also tell me 00:27:36 it turns out that spawning a fuckton of speed triple crossbows was 00:27:38 a bad idea 00:27:43 why does trog give out so many crossbows of flaming 00:27:45 So I can stopping typing and erasing things: I think its bad 0.14 had claymores now that the change might be reverted, but its still bikeshedding either way. 00:27:49 Bloaxzorro: look at the link! 00:27:52 does trog still gift uber randart triple crossbows 00:27:58 no ;-; 00:28:05 reaverb: it's bikeshedding for fanservice :) 00:28:16 ebarrett_: randarts shouldn't be affected by the change 00:28:19 since artefacts use a different codepath 00:28:21 I think 00:28:24 not sure 00:28:31 ...imho someone should rewrite brand code 00:28:34 <_< 00:28:39 Would 3xbow of speed be better than velocity? 00:28:42 imho someone should fix randarts 00:28:43 i imagine so 00:28:48 much better 00:28:51 yes please bring back triple swords 00:28:53 I mean sure ok I'm complaining about triple crossbows being op but I'll totally play a xbow trogdude first game in t0.15 00:29:04 -!- wya has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:29:07 in fact add a quadruple sword 00:29:13 right now I think they're verrry slightly too strong 00:29:19 but I need to actually play a game with the 00:29:21 m 00:29:22 infinity sword 00:29:23 !lm . kohu 00:29:24 <|amethyst> btw, I still think "speed" versus "velocity" is :( 00:29:24 74. [2014-02-21 21:02:28] PleasingFungus the Kobold Arbalest (L27 KoHu of Fedhas) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5) 00:29:26 hm 00:29:34 !lg Bloax MiHu 00:29:35 7. Bloax the Minotaur Arbalest (L27 MiHu of Cheibriados), blasted by a balrug (fireball) (summoned by Cerebov) in Pandemonium (cerebov_st) on 2014-07-27 23:53:14, with 967488 points after 84093 turns and 6:22:46. 00:29:38 i stopped caring 00:29:40 really hard 00:29:41 |amethyst: ranged brands are sort of a mess 00:29:48 ammo & launcher both 00:29:56 clearly 00:30:02 vorpal for launchers should be speed 00:30:06 though to be fair, in principle, speed & velocity are different........ 00:30:17 (since ammo is """"""limited""""") 00:30:21 oh 00:30:25 because the weird interaction between velocity and ammo brands is weird as hell 00:30:28 I was talking with nrook 00:30:34 and he suggested that maybe gifting gods shouldn't gift ammo 00:30:40 which is... not necessarily a terrible idea 00:30:41 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: because velocity brand depends on direction and speed brand does not? 00:30:51 * PleasingFungus boos |amethyst 00:30:52 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:31:03 they should still give you funny ammo 00:31:09 but not as often as they do now 00:31:09 heh 00:31:14 (which is ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME) 00:31:19 What do you think would be a reasonable base dam for 3xbow? 00:31:22 if its OP now 00:31:24 like 20? 00:31:34 20 seems a bit on the weaker side with arbalests at 18 00:31:39 21-22 tbh. I think it is verrry slightly too strong 00:31:42 mm 00:31:49 but I still need to play a game with it!!! 00:31:53 dang 00:31:59 ??longbow 00:32:00 longbow[1/1]: Like a {shortbow}, but longer. 1.2 base delay, 0.6 mindelay. Fires arrows. Small species (e.g. halflings) can't wield these. In 0.15, 15 base damage, 1.7 base delay, 0.7 mindelay. Try taking one from harmless monsters like centaur warriors, deep elf master archers, or Nessos! 00:32:16 even though I didn't play newranged yet the idea of a portable cannon is ok I guess 00:32:19 wow, lots higher damage for xbows 00:32:25 compared to bows/slings 00:32:26 speaking from theory only I'd just increase delay 00:32:27 well, longbows have mindelay 0.7 00:32:37 and xxxbows have mindelay 1... 00:32:49 their min delay is in the teens (bows) right? 00:32:49 ebarrett_: have you seen xxxbows 00:32:54 dleay 00:32:59 no 00:33:04 It's "quite high" 00:33:07 ??triple crossbow 00:33:07 triple crossbow[1/1]: Like a crossbow, but three times as good! Base damage 23, base/mindelay 23/10. Historically known as a Chuangzi Nu. Not suitable for shaving. 00:33:17 you need 26 to fire at 1.0 00:33:21 yea? 00:33:23 yep 00:33:29 bardiche/exec axe 00:33:44 very briefly it was 22 base delay, 25 base damage 00:33:46 hmm 00:33:48 that version was... too strong 00:33:56 I wonder if its better per aut than a longbow 00:33:58 the AvEffDam on triple crossbows is just about the same as for longbows 00:33:59 probably 00:34:03 well 00:34:05 a bardiche that hits from the other side of the room 00:34:06 -!- quinso has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:11 except an itty bit higher with brands on the triple crossbow 00:34:12 with stacking brands sometimes 00:34:14 bardiche does more dps iirc 00:34:17 excepting the brand issue 00:34:19 ??bardiche 00:34:19 bardiche[1/1]: This polearm is an enormous combination of pike and battle axe. Damage 18, accuracy -6, delay 20, damage type: chopping. Was called lochaber axe prior to 0.4. Will always be called lochaber axe in cbus's heart. 00:34:25 <|amethyst> doesn't that depend on AC? 00:34:30 bardiches are bad though 00:34:32 yes 00:34:32 it does not do more damage per aut if you start shooting instead of walking up to it 00:34:36 triple crossbows effectively shit on AC 00:34:41 yeah, bardiches are 25/26 00:34:41 i speak from experience here 00:34:49 how many monsters actually have ac tho 00:34:54 not many 00:34:57 Hell Sentinel (071) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 121-168 | AC/EV: 25/3 08(spiny 5) | Dam: 40, 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3263 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, iron shot (3d33) | Sz: Large | Int: high. 00:34:57 %??hell sentinel 00:35:00 the only good example 00:35:03 oof 00:35:07 emperor scorp 00:35:13 iron troll/iron dragon 00:35:15 triple crossbows shit on all of those 00:35:19 golden dragon (08D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 90-127 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 40, 20, 2007(trample) | see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(192), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 4175 | Sp: b.fire (3d27), b.cold (3d27), poisonous cloud (3d11) | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:35:19 %??golden dragon 00:35:20 pew, pew 00:35:20 the things that make everything look shit basically 00:35:21 crossbow power 00:35:22 now quite 00:35:54 does newranged go through ac differently from melee 00:35:57 well, archery is basically going to be OP because it's ranged 00:36:03 unless the bows are like pea shooters 00:36:04 it's just melee afaik 00:36:07 and no ones gonna want to do that 00:36:19 ranged has a big disadvantage over melee though 00:36:22 it lags webtiles up 00:36:23 really fast 00:36:24 hahaha 00:36:25 :( 00:36:26 ugh 00:36:28 that it does 00:36:40 because if it's the same I don't see how a base 23 thing is worse vs ac than a base less-than-23 thing 00:36:48 then again I don't know how anything works so 00:37:03 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:37:23 doesn't tiles have an option to not draw the projectiles 00:37:27 yes 00:37:34 does it work 00:37:37 to slow down things less 00:37:38 afaik, yes 00:37:39 it works somewhat 00:37:45 the problem is just that, uh 00:37:54 you're playing without knowing what the fuck is going on 00:38:14 is it possible to uh say 00:38:23 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:27 have an option that lights up the projectile route or whatever the word is 00:38:32 without drawing the projectile itself 00:38:37 and would that be efficient 00:38:50 also the big ranged nerf here could be not scaling the damage by skill 00:39:05 ebarrett_: imho !tell ontoclasm; he's the one who set up the existing option, I think.... 00:39:06 and perhaps making skills actually improve your accuracy 00:39:07 but that'd make it not like melee again 00:39:10 ^ 00:39:21 even the 1.0 delay thing is goofier than I'd prefer 00:39:30 it's an... experiment 00:39:45 you can ungoof the 1.0 delay thing btw 00:39:49 I think 00:39:53 mm? 00:39:57 well technically the damage-is-not-affected-by-skill is logically sound 00:40:03 who cares 00:40:04 but just pushing base delay a bit higher 00:40:17 so it can only hit 1.0 at 27 00:40:19 ebarrett_: mindelay is 1 for all xbows 00:40:22 ah 00:40:25 ??hand crossbow 00:40:25 hand crossbow[1/2]: It's a crossbow that you can hold in your hand. 11 base damage, 15/10 base/mindelay. Starting weapon for crossbow hunters. 00:40:28 it's their gimmick 00:40:32 an experiment, like I said 00:40:34 ??arbalest 00:40:34 arbalest[1/1]: Crossbow. 18 base damage, 19/10 base/mindelay. Used to just be called 'crossbow'. 00:40:36 imo remove ranged weapons 00:40:38 ya 00:40:38 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:40:40 same 00:40:47 :I 00:41:06 ranged weapons 00:41:11 when you feel like trading fun for power 00:41:14 at least you dont have to play them! 00:41:42 How does shadowclone work with new range? 00:41:52 absolutely no idea. 00:42:06 maybe I'll take dith on my ko, I bet that'd work well. 00:42:32 well considering that ranged accuracy is atrocious 00:42:35 sure thing 00:42:43 yeah 00:42:52 (good thing you have that umbra to help you out on that) 00:42:53 that's the thing I feel like everyone is forgetting 00:43:02 ranged acc is melee acc, it's just more noticeable at range 00:43:06 oh 00:43:11 because you see the things miss 00:43:14 vs just tab 00:43:14 -!- Sky_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:43:19 that makes sense 00:43:24 confirmation bias 00:43:26 right 00:43:31 we thought there might be a bug but it turned out to just be confusing code + confirmation bias 00:43:34 although yeah don't use ranged weapons against the enchantress 00:43:39 hahaha 00:43:50 lol the enchantress is just gg archery user 00:43:53 have you tried shooting at sojobo 00:44:22 with 50 str/dex, 27 fighting/crossbows and a +100 triple crossbow 00:44:27 you have a 40% chance to hit him 00:44:44 REASONABLE HIT CHANCES RIGHT THERE 00:45:06 very 00:45:26 with less unreal stats and by the time you meet him 00:45:30 it's probably more like 7% 00:46:20 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:41 it's like you're a firestorming deep elf that put on a plate 00:46:42 <|amethyst> sojobo is going to be harder to hit with ranged than melee 00:46:52 <|amethyst> as would pointed out earlier, dmsl 00:46:52 and you're trying to firestorm things but it just isn't working 00:46:56 <|amethyst> s/would/was/ 00:46:57 except your mp is your hp 00:47:08 well one thing is harder 00:47:13 another is "literally impossible" 00:48:03 <|amethyst> we could remove evasion 00:48:11 <|amethyst> (on players too) 00:48:32 <|amethyst> every attack hits, hope you have AC 00:48:43 just because player accuracy and monster EV are both broken then i wouldn't say that's reason enough to remove EV 00:49:34 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:36 I am not convinced that either player accuracy nor monster EV are broken 00:49:49 well alright 00:49:54 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49:55 what kind of progression does monster EV have 00:50:33 what kind of progression does monster AC have? 00:50:35 what about monster SH? 00:50:37 <|amethyst> what kind of progression does monster damage have? 00:50:52 |amethyst: progressively higher 00:51:16 worm (04w) | Spd: 6 | HD: 5 | HP: 17-38 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Dam: 12 | Res: 06magic(13) | XP: 9 | Sz: small | Int: insect. 00:51:16 <|amethyst> %??worm 00:51:19 deep elf fighter (04e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 20-36 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 9 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 182 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d6), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d6), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d6), magic dart (3d4), 04esc:invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:51:19 <|amethyst> %??deep elf fighter 00:51:27 imho nerf defi 00:51:35 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Spd: 15 | HD: 16 | HP: 87-118 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Dam: 25, 25 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, two-weapon, fighter | Res: 06magic(128) | XP: 2584 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 00:51:35 %??deep elf blademaster 00:51:39 titan (06C) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 87-130 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Dam: 55 | 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(186), 10elec++, 12drown | XP: 2589 | Sp: b.lightning (3d24), minor healing (2d10), airstrike (0-50) | Sz: Giant | Int: high. 00:51:39 %??titan 00:51:52 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:52:10 I am not really sure what you're trying to illustrate there... 00:52:31 <|amethyst> I think we're supposed to make elephants super-dodgy because they show up later than newts? 00:53:12 what ev do elephants even have 00:53:14 elephant (03Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 52-80 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 2007(trample), 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 482 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 00:53:14 %??elephant 00:53:54 <|amethyst> Three defensive stats per monster is a lot to balance, though 00:54:04 quite 00:54:06 four 00:54:10 hp is a defensive stat :) 00:54:14 <|amethyst> I was counting HP 00:54:15 <|amethyst> not SH 00:54:16 although SH is nonexistent for most enemies 00:54:16 also, mr, resists... 00:54:18 oh 00:54:21 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 00:54:23 clearly add more sh 00:54:31 the precedent is there in player muts 00:54:33 bone plates! 00:54:39 unknown monster: "bone golem" 00:54:39 <|amethyst> %??bone golem 00:54:45 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:54:55 well i'm not saying holy shit guys it's all your fault 00:55:06 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:55:09 but the progression is rather bizarre 00:55:16 <|amethyst> it's not a progression... 00:55:21 <|amethyst> HP maybe 00:55:28 vault warden (04p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 64-110 | AC/EV: 1/13 | Dam: 36 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(64) | XP: 1692 | Sp: seal doors | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 00:55:28 %??Vault warden 00:55:46 you're right it's pretty much the same values across the game 00:56:37 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:56:54 not really sure whether that's a good thing though 00:57:05 monster defenses are what they look like they should be, or at least what they looked like they should be at some point based on what real/mythological thing the monster is based 00:57:19 trying to shove things into a "progression" would be as awkward as glyph reform 00:57:41 which dislodged things from the perfectly fine H glyph because people believed it was "overcrowded" 00:57:47 despite H making perfect sence 00:57:56 this glyph complaint reform brought to you by eb 00:57:57 smooth transition 00:58:02 flawless 00:58:04 10/10 00:58:05 *glyph reform complaint, dang it 00:58:14 rip 00:58:16 <|amethyst> FR: glyph complaint reform 00:58:21 ! 00:58:22 not as bad as the bad edit in the vp bug report 00:58:24 hm 00:58:26 I was thinking about shields 00:58:42 <|amethyst> "Q looks stupid because it has that curly bit coming out of the corner. Real tengu don't have curly bits!" 00:58:54 Qengu. 00:58:55 also *sense 00:59:00 <|amethyst> Orb guardians are the only good glyph 00:59:21 are orb guardians X things or sleeping babies in tiles now 00:59:26 <|amethyst> X things 00:59:31 rip babies 00:59:37 if we made shields block bolts, the only real distinction between ev and sh would be the source, the interaction with melee attacks, and... oods? 00:59:52 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: interactions with multiple attacks 01:00:03 that's what I meant with melee attacks; it works on all attacks? 01:00:06 I'd thought it was a melee thing 01:00:21 by "it" I mean "penalties to shielding against multiple things in a turn" (or however it works? I'm fuzzy) 01:00:54 shields could just block half damage from bolts if the check succeeds 01:00:55 maybe 01:01:19 -!- deptstoremook has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:01:58 <|amethyst> there's also shield_bypass_ability 01:02:17 -!- Svendre has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:24 <|amethyst> trying to find the shield multiple attack code again 01:02:52 <|amethyst> player::shield_block_penalty 01:03:30 !source shield_block_penalty 01:03:31 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/monster.cc;hb=HEAD#l3327 01:03:32 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:03:36 hm 01:03:48 <|amethyst> which is called from attack::attack_shield_blocked so should apply to ranged as well as melee 01:04:14 ahh 01:04:15 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:21 5 * blocks^2 01:04:24 <|amethyst> (and is also called from beam.cc) 01:04:27 in the mathematical sense of ^ 01:04:29 <|amethyst> (and mon-project.cc) 01:04:35 mm 01:04:37 mon-project.cc 01:04:42 <|amethyst> that would be IOOD 01:04:44 yep 01:04:58 I'm gonna have some nasty merge conflicts to clean up the next time I rebase boulder, I think 01:05:01 rip 01:05:47 rip boulder 01:06:02 no!! 01:06:04 rip me 01:06:43 basically my reasoning is (a) there's a general feeling that sh fall off later on (particularly in extended), which isn't a thing that I think is necessary from a design perspective 01:06:48 s/fall/falls 01:07:03 and (b) it seems profoundly morally incorrect that if a dragon breathes fire on you, you can't block it with your shield 01:07:07 because I mean. come on. 01:07:13 i liked the idea of blocking SH% of the incoming explosion damage 01:07:53 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:08:15 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:46 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 01:11:03 <|amethyst> IIRC, common wisdow was "always go shields" until 2H weapons were buffed in ... what was it, 0.10 or 0.11? 01:11:10 <|amethyst> s/wisdow/wisdom/ 01:11:51 <|amethyst> %git ed8128f 01:11:53 07kilobyte02 * 0.10-a0-690-ged8128f: Reduce delays on inferior 2-handed weapons. 10(2 years, 11 months ago, 1 file, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ed8128f571d0 01:12:00 <|amethyst> "Nearly no one uses two-handers." 01:12:05 neat 01:12:09 now its 01:12:11 use a 2h 01:12:14 fuck shields 01:12:21 where's the justice...!? 01:12:31 you cant spell shit without SH PF 01:12:31 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:12:44 iirc i saw someone inscribe an item with that 01:12:45 i was pleased 01:12:50 good inscription 01:13:18 sounds like a very cursednobleman thing to do 01:13:35 Shields are alright on races that need reduced investment though 01:13:47 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:13:53 well mostly trolls 01:13:55 shields are secretly really good if you have tons of stats 01:14:03 (i wonder when that happens) 01:14:42 when you cant walk 01:15:31 imho dg 01:15:52 <|amethyst> Chimigod 01:16:07 <|amethyst> I think they sell those at Applebee's 01:29:06 fun fact: pandemonium lords can have vorpal-branded attacks 01:29:22 also, speed 01:29:43 -!- Raycaster has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2367-gd30bd84: Add acid to AF_KLOWN 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d30bd84d52ff 01:31:02 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2368-geb356de: Refactor _random_special_pan_lord_brand() 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eb356de990b0 01:32:13 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 01:32:25 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 34.0a1/20140725030202]] 01:33:25 -!- ebarrett_ has quit [] 01:39:55 -!- giantbat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:04 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:45:06 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:51:57 -!- Wahaha has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:53:47 -!- Mifuyne has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:45 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:00:58 <|amethyst> this is a strange check in debug_check_ghosts 02:01:03 <|amethyst> if (get_resist(ghost.resists, MR_RES_ELEC) < 0) 02:01:03 <|amethyst> return false; 02:03:12 <|amethyst> ah 02:03:37 <|amethyst> there used to be in-bounds checks for rF and rC too 02:06:10 -!- MgDark_HuIE has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446]] 02:08:19 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2369-g3e256a8: Unbrace 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3e256a8c4fb1 02:08:19 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2370-ga66baa6: Rename a now-incorrectly-named constant. 10(11 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a66baa62ca34 02:14:18 -!- Vizer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:40 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2370-ga66baa6 (34) 02:25:03 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:27:32 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:52 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:53 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:42:25 -!- adrel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:43:40 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:50:21 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:53:31 -!- markgo` has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:54:16 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:32 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:57:33 -!- rast- is now known as rast 02:59:22 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:05:41 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:10:32 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:10:52 -!- Sovek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:11:44 -!- p_a_n_d_y has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:20 -!- schistosomatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:35 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:20:41 -!- mibe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:24:07 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:24:16 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:03 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:38 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:42:54 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:26 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:42 PleasingFungus: No acid brand for pan lords? 03:46:37 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:02:52 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:00 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:26 -!- p_a_n_d_y has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 04:07:04 -!- Lumpydoo has 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-!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:20:22 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:26:32 -!- Zermako2 is now known as zermako 08:28:10 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:33:52 -!- wya has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:24 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:40:33 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:39 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:53:26 -!- otis has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:56:13 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:56:29 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:59 -!- lrvs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:58:01 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:39 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:57 -!- serious has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:10:36 -!- debo has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:10:51 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:03 -!- rockygargoyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:56 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 09:24:18 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 09:25:20 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:26:46 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:11 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:33:18 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:19 -!- zermako is now known as Zermako 09:34:48 -!- Beast has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:49 <|amethyst> re #8842, should mana vipers maybe lose the CE_MUTAGEN? 09:37:19 <|amethyst> it's kind of flavourful, but as a good god Zin dislikes quite a few summoning spells already 09:38:44 <|amethyst> And I don't think it's obvious to players why Zin would dislike them, since you're likely to get the spell before you actually encounter ones in Snake or Abyss that leave corpses 09:44:49 -!- GoblinBomb has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:54:28 I never understood why mana vipers had mutagenic corpses 09:55:38 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:43 -!- Sovek has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:56:37 -!- tyrantul has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:09 For explosive bolt from rod of ignition, beam.damage = dice_def(3, 9 + parent->ench_power / 6); since ench_power is 5 + 3*Evo, this is effectively 3d3 + 1 side per 6 evo, up to 3d9.5 at 27 Evo. That seems like incredibly low damage, considering that each blast is reduced by rF and AC. 09:57:14 they could just not leave corpses 09:57:24 since they're weird magic things 09:57:54 -!- ontoclasm1 is now known as ontoclasm 10:02:56 Speaking of magical snakes, why do guardian serpents have mutagenic corpses? 10:03:03 <|amethyst> Lasty2: how do you get 3d3 ? 10:03:11 <|amethyst> Lasty2: wouldn't that be 3d9 even with zero power? 10:03:29 <|amethyst> this is dice_def, not calc_dice 10:03:31 Lasty2: that's dice_def, not-- 10:03:34 Grunt: realism 10:03:42 !banish |amethyst 10:03:42 Grunt casts a spell. |amethyst is devoured by a tear in reality! 10:04:21 Oh, oops. I did confuse calc_dice vs dice_def. 10:04:29 thanks 10:04:53 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:05:45 * Grunt hits ontoclasm with a halberd but does no damage. 10:07:08 * ontoclasm is destroyed! 10:07:18 oops 10:07:23 I guess it was only a paper ontoclasm after all. 10:08:37 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:08:40 -!- Kolbur has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:08:57 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:13:54 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:22 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:20:21 removing mana viper corpses seems reasonable to me, yes 10:20:25 -!- CKyle has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:32 (they have mutagenic corpses because magic is mutagenic in crawl; see also "glow") 10:22:19 there's already other purple chunks in snake (guardian serpents), so it's not too huge a loss for funhavers 10:23:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:45 !seen Grunt 10:26:45 I last saw Grunt at Thu Jul 31 15:07:23 2014 UTC (19m 20s ago) saying 'I guess it was only a paper ontoclasm after all.' on ##crawl-dev. 10:29:34 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:42 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:32:21 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:32:57 -!- rockygargoyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:51 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:00 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:36:07 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:37:00 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2371-g894106e: Make a few vaults a bit uglier 10(6 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=894106e0913d 10:40:27 !seen PleasingFungus 10:40:27 I last saw PleasingFungus at Thu Jul 31 15:34:16 2014 UTC (6m 11s ago) saying 'spriggan riders are not to be fucked with' on ##crawl. 10:40:36 PleasingFungus: shame on you for making those 10:40:38 !glasses 10:40:38 ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■) 10:40:39 ugly 10:40:41 vault edits 10:40:44 should lamp of fire give a warning to oka followers if you evoke it in the general direction of your allies? 10:40:47 (currently it doesn't) 10:40:55 it could use a targetter 10:42:10 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:42:27 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 45-85 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1812(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 803 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 10:42:27 %?white very ugly thing 10:42:28 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 75-117 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 912 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 10:42:28 %??white very ugly thing 10:42:46 IMO need an HD boost for better af_cold action 10:43:32 yeah |amethyst and I were talking about setting their dice size back down to the old value & increasing hd 10:44:36 also if it amuses you I am about to splat due to said lack of warning 10:45:05 that does amuse me. 10:45:12 Okawaru roars with laughter! 10:45:48 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:48 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:48:31 !lm . 10:48:31 3201. [2014-07-31 15:47:41] perunasaurus the Martial Artist (L17 HaTm of Okawaru) mollified Okawaru on turn 39919. (D:12) 10:48:37 sorry to disappoint you 10:48:41 ah well 10:48:45 !lg 10:48:46 266. PleasingFungus the Corrupter of Planes (L27 OgAK of Lugonu), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2014-07-17 21:19:06, with 2321938 points after 72852 turns and 6:33:15. 10:48:49 !lg * 10:48:50 3440766. Suckerboh the Twirler (L5 GrGl), slain by a gnoll (a +0 halberd) on D:2 on 2014-07-31 15:48:22, with 178 points after 2213 turns and 0:04:55. 10:48:52 mm 10:48:58 always more deaths 10:49:18 !lg * hell 10:49:18 351. tempest the Pyromancer (L21 DrCj of Vehumet), slain by Geryon in Hell (vestibule_of_hell_subvaulted; vestibule_geryon_mu) on 2014-07-30 23:28:38, with 382813 points after 84277 turns and 10:29:17. 10:49:20 well there's still a titan and a bunch of giants and whatnot occupying a level of snake 10:50:11 anyway should I make a ticket about this 10:52:08 interesting, i have a darkgrey panlord 10:52:12 Kvaak: sounds like a 10:52:18 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2372-gf1ab215: Adjust (very) ugly thing HD 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f1ab2151e92b 10:52:21 !glasses 10:52:21 ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■) 10:52:21 giant problem 10:55:14 -!- Rarn has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 10:55:32 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55:50 -!- rockygargoyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:48 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:15 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 34.0a1/20140725030202]] 10:58:06 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 10:59:50 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:00:04 -!- moq_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:05 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:02:34 -!- Blakmane has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:03:03 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:41 -!- mamgar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:07:11 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:09:07 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:13:14 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:46 -!- puissantveil has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:14:23 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:13 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:22:17 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:22:39 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:22:48 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:26:36 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:28:17 %git :/ticky 11:28:17 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-1954-g16e9270: Fix sticky flame duration depending on the HD of the target (Patashu) 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=16e9270f5618 11:29:56 -!- dat0ctopode has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:36:17 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:22 -!- Ankalagon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:50:28 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:43 -!- seriosu has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:01:54 -!- giantbat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:10 -!- Sovek has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:05:37 -!- Kyle873 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:08:08 -!- Kyle873_ is now known as Kyle873 12:09:18 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:12 -!- blakmane has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:12:20 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:34 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2372-gf1ab215 (34) 12:17:08 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:12 -!- tolly has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:29:52 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:30:48 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:39 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:05 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 12:39:06 unknown monster: "0.14 ugly thing" 12:39:06 %?0.14 ugly thing 12:39:31 red ugly thing (05u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 29-56 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 1104(fire:8-15) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 12:39:31 %0.14? ugly thing 12:40:23 oh 12:40:26 white ugly thing (15u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 48-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1712(cold:8-23) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 02cold | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 255 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 12:40:26 %??ugly thing 12:40:42 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 45-85 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1812(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 803 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 12:40:42 %0.14? white very ugly thing 12:40:44 welp 12:40:57 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 75-117 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 912 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 12:40:57 %??white very ugly thing 12:40:59 WELP 12:41:30 That's not 100% up to date. 12:41:31 %git 12:41:31 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-2372-gf1ab215: Adjust (very) ugly thing HD 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f1ab2151e92b 12:41:36 ^ doesn't have that in it 12:41:45 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:42:58 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 75-118 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 910 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 12:42:58 %??white very ugly thing hd:12 12:43:09 huh 12:43:11 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:16 I was expecting more damage 12:44:19 -!- gareppa has quit [Quit: gareppa] 12:44:51 white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 75-116 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 911 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 12:44:51 %??white very ugly thing hd:18 12:45:03 huh 12:52:09 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 12:54:18 imo give white very uglies AF_FLASH_FREEZE 12:54:47 also when do we get blue uglies with AF_ANTIMAGIC and AF_SAP_MAGIC 12:54:48 <3 12:56:51 -!- FlowRiser has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:18 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01:11 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:51 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:52 grunt: clearly that should be the new purple flavor 13:04:53 i m h o 13:05:08 purple is magic, so it makes sense! 13:07:33 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:37 fr ETC_RANDOM ugly things 13:07:47 with AF_CHAOS 13:08:12 party-colored ugly things with AF_KLOWN 13:08:44 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:01 Lasty2: why not just make tentacled monstrosities klown uglies 13:09:14 that also hug you because <3 13:09:38 The ugly klown constricts you! 13:10:06 It lovingly caresses you. 13:10:30 Killer Klown (04p) | Spd: 13 | HD: 20 | HP: 126-178 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 3012(klown) | 10doors, see invisible, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(160) | Vul: 11silver | XP: 4743 | Sp: blink | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 13:10:30 %??Killer Klown 13:10:34 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Spd: 10 | HD: 23 | HP: 104-154 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 22, 17, 13, 903(constrict) | 05demonic, 10doors, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(153), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2969 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 13:10:34 %??Tentacled monstrosity 13:10:55 Dam: 22(klown), 17(klown), 13(klown), 9(constrict) 13:10:56 :^))) 13:11:07 just klowning around 13:11:40 That would still leave them fairly harmless, since AF_KLOWN wouldn't proc unless the damage overcomes AC, and in Zot, it rarely would. 13:13:05 Well nothing is preventing anyone from making them beefier and making them hit harder. 13:13:28 although all that at once would probably be a bit too much at once 13:14:31 I think it's a bit weird that AFs don't proc unless the initial attack gets past AC. It makes damage for those creatures really swingy: 0 damage, 0 damage, 0 damage, 30 damage, 35 damage. 13:17:27 also it's weird that af_cold secretly pierces ac 13:17:43 these two things are related 13:19:42 af_cold pierces AC more than the other AFs? 13:19:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:11 ??af_cold 13:22:11 af cold[1/3]: Attacks deal (1 to 3) * monster HD additional COLD damage (bypasses AC) 13:22:23 red ugly thing (05u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 47-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1704(fire:8-15) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 255 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 13:22:23 %??red ugly thing 13:22:25 unknown monster: "af_fire" 13:22:25 %??af_fire 13:22:29 ??af_fire 13:22:29 I don't have a page labeled af_fire in my learndb. 13:22:32 mm 13:22:58 i i r c most afs do not bypass ac, but af_cold does (elec bypasses half ac but that doesn't count?) 13:23:06 My understanding was that they all bypassed AC because they're all applied only after AC has been rolled and still some damage is being done 13:23:31 Or is it only AF_COLD that works like that, and other AFs are applied along with initial damage? 13:23:45 they are applied after in all cases 13:23:46 ::iiam: 13:23:55 it is a very limited mystery 13:24:01 !source melee_attack.cc 13:24:01 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc;hb=HEAD 13:24:09 !source attack.cc 13:24:09 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/attack.cc;hb=HEAD 13:24:19 !source fight.cc 13:24:20 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/fight.cc;hb=HEAD 13:24:39 well, fine, but i can't remember how to do the "mystery solved" ghost 13:24:47 we haven't solved it yet 13:24:50 one thing at a time! 13:25:01 haha 13:26:13 af_cold isn't some unique special case 13:26:34 ah, okay 13:26:47 maybe it's just the way that it interacts with simulac that I was thinking of 13:27:07 Is the current extremely swingy damage associated with AFs the intended outcome? 13:28:46 that is generally not a useful question to ask about ancient crawl mechanics 13:29:29 Okay, let me rephrase: is it a good design to have creatures with elemental attack have exceptionally high damage variance? 13:29:40 no 13:30:02 (and i'd argue having extremely high damage variance everywhere isn't helping either) 13:30:35 -!- tcjsavannah_ is now known as tcjsavannah 13:30:47 (if you want examples then try having a stone giant hit you for 50 damage with large rocks twice in a row) 13:31:03 (not a frequent occurence, but it happens!) 13:33:42 seems fine to me, high variance isn't a problem necessarily 13:33:45 -!- Crehl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:36 it's not a problem if you hate people who know how to make very solid builds 13:35:01 because even with 40 AC/EV a stone giant can still do that if your EV and AC rolls get catastrophically low rolls while the stone giant gets high damage rolls 13:35:16 Different topic: does it make sense to refactor a line like { div_rand_round(30 + pow / 6, arc + 2) } into something like { div_rand_round(30 + pow, arc + 2 * 6) } so that all the division happens through div_rand_round? 13:37:33 -!- hurdos has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:37:48 uh 13:37:54 that's not how multiplication works 13:38:14 div_rand_round(180 + pow, (arc + 2) * 6) is what you wanted, I think 13:38:15 right, bad parens, was sloppy 13:38:42 I should take more effort when mocking up code. But I think you got the idea I was trying to convey, right? 13:39:03 wouldn't (arc + 2 * 6) be (arc + 12) 13:39:21 yes, yes, I applied the operators badly in my hypothetical 13:40:47 Let me try asking the question again without the distractingly bad example: in cases where there's plain division in the first argument for div_rand_round, does it make sense to (say) put in a patch to move that to the second param so that div_rand_round takes care of all the division? 13:42:18 if readability isn't affected, and if the integer-division-truncation doesn't seem to have been intentional 13:43:15 Cool, thanks. 13:43:55 it would be nice if there was a fsim for spells 13:44:08 -!- Moonsilence has quit [] 13:47:47 -!- Philonous has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:27 -!- johnny0 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:38 -!- rophy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:08:00 -!- Lightli_ is now known as Lightli 14:08:07 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:34 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:51 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:16:31 -!- daek_ is now known as Daekdroom 14:17:46 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140529030207]] 14:21:45 -!- lrvs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:29:04 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:40 -!- MiCKdonalds has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:34:46 -!- markgo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:38:23 -!- giantbat has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:32 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:46:26 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:07 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2373-g7cdf127: Ritually cleanse mana vipers (#8842) 10(63 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7cdf127c8817 14:47:49 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:50:28 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:29 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:07 -!- Vorhito has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:51:18 -!- category has quit [Client Quit] 14:55:10 -!- Lumpydoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:55:57 |amethyst: how do you feel about removing mana viper corpses entirely? 14:56:06 given they are weird magical beasts. 14:56:27 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: hm 14:56:27 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:57:01 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: re your message 14:57:12 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: I don't think there have been any mails to the list since you joined 14:57:20 ha 14:57:29 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: is it pleasingfung@gmail.com ? 14:57:39 yes 14:57:55 <|amethyst> then you're on the list anyway 14:58:02 aight 14:58:08 how do I use the list, anyway? send to...? 14:58:34 aight, thanks! 14:59:08 <|amethyst> for the most part it only gets used when discussing inviting a new member 14:59:25 <|amethyst> maybe when retiring, but that's just as often sent to the public list 15:00:03 -!- Stelpa has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:00:12 Weird -- lightning rod can't autotarget kraken tentacles. 15:01:23 <|amethyst> might have something to do with them being stationary no-XP? 15:01:27 OK, I sent out an email - let me know if it bounces. 15:01:47 if it bounces in some way that only the domain admin would know about, I guess. 15:03:03 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: received by the server, and I got a copy 15:03:09 aight 15:03:11 thanks! 15:03:23 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: several people's ISPs have greylists so it might take a while for everyone to get it 15:03:32 huh 15:03:54 interesting 15:04:27 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: I can't send to live.com addresses at all (maybe hotmail too) 15:04:42 my first email address was hotmail. 15:04:55 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: and trying to get in contact with their postmaster didn't help 15:05:05 didn't manage to get a hold of them, or...? 15:05:07 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: essentially it was "we got spam from that IP block once" 15:05:22 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: and I said "is there anything I can do" and they said "talk to your ISP" 15:05:32 <|amethyst> and my ISP said "talk to postmaster" 15:05:37 <|amethyst> hm 15:05:45 I solved that problem once pretending to be an ISP but I forget how 15:05:45 <|amethyst> actually, *they* didn't say "talk to your ISP" 15:05:51 <|amethyst> the website did 15:05:58 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:06:03 <|amethyst> I don't think I actually heard back from a human at Microsoft 15:06:03 I think I had to send email to someone else saying "hi we're real please let akrasiac.org send email to you thanks" 15:06:15 I don't think a human responded to me either it just worked the next time 15:06:28 (this was to like... email someone from my neighborhood association, or something, because I am old) 15:06:40 I might still have the email chain though I'll check 15:06:42 fr 15:06:54 <|amethyst> rax is so civic-minded! 15:07:00 acquirement actually proceeds to a "are you sure you wish to acquire [category]?" prompt 15:07:20 so as to avoid acquiring food instead of armour due to extreme boredom 15:07:51 clearly instead buff food acq 15:07:52 hrm it looks like I didn't save those emails, sorry :( 15:08:10 I honestly don't remember the last time I deleted an email 15:08:13 "but we're totally building a little labyrinth in the park!" 15:08:19 <|amethyst> 2014-07-14.log: 21:59 <+|amethyst> "I get three questions? Really? Hm, what to ask?" *poof* The genie disappears. 15:08:48 I delete pretty aggressively because when I didn't I ended up with way, way too much email sorted poorly, but I use old tools poorly and I'm sure there are better solutions 15:09:32 <|amethyst> rax: I pretty much never delete, though I'm sure I'll learn my lesson there if I am ever sued and subject to discovery 15:10:24 <|amethyst> I should switch muas though, because vm-mode just doesn't cut it, particularly with me being mostly a vim user these days 15:10:58 <|amethyst> !lg pinemutt s=char 15:10:58 No games for pinemutt. 15:11:47 <|amethyst> was really hoping for 2x MuAs 15:11:57 I keep most things although not filed in many cases. if I can get to it elsewhere (e.g. it's from a bug tracker) or it's clearly time dependent / loses all usefulness after a certain date I will gnerally delete it 15:12:37 wow that would be a great joke 15:14:23 !lg pinemutt s=char 15:14:23 One game for pinemutt: MuAs 15:14:35 the other one should show up shortly 15:14:42 * rax helps 15:17:46 <|amethyst> !lg pinemutt s=char 15:17:46 2 games for pinemutt: 2x MuAs 15:17:48 <|amethyst> excellent 15:20:34 -!- gareppa has quit [Quit: gareppa] 15:25:45 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:32 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:56 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 15:34:47 -!- Twiggytwiggytwig has quit [Quit: See ya guys later ;)] 15:35:46 pinemutt 15:35:47 muas 15:35:52 you people are crazier than I am :) 15:36:59 <|amethyst> Quid gruntiet ipso gruntes? 15:37:19 * Grunt grunts, as is expected of Grunt. 15:37:47 <|amethyst> !leard add annoyed_grunt see {doh} 15:37:51 <3 15:38:05 <|amethyst> !leard abd sbellping 15:38:11 <|amethyst> !learn add annoyed_grunt see {doh} 15:38:12 annoyed grunt[1/1]: see {doh} 15:39:32 ??doh 15:39:32 |amethyst[1/12]: <|amethyst> doh 15:40:24 Looks like Grunt...just got out-crazed 15:40:28 !glasses 15:40:28 ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■) 15:41:02 rip galoshes 15:41:28 <|amethyst> ??sputterflies[$] 15:41:29 summon butterflies[4/4]: 12Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 9Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 4Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 8Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 11Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ7 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 6Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ6 10Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 15:41:39 good 15:41:56 <|amethyst> Oh, not sure if you saw the new command I added 15:41:56 <|amethyst> ?. 15:41:57 |amethyst[1/12]: <|amethyst> doh 15:42:10 ?.[todo 15:42:13 <|amethyst> ?. $ 15:42:14 |amethyst[12/12]: <|amethyst> I guess I should write more bad code 15:42:17 ah 15:42:19 ?. 3 15:42:19 pleasingfungus[3/8]: short-term: reduce chunks to an undifferentiated, meaty slurry, fix ranged combat, bring lethal infusion back from the dead. later: moss removal, ORB ghosts, strategic items, new uniques? return of diamond obelisk? more slugs??? no-backtracking god, update todo... and remove fun. 15:42:20 <|amethyst> sadly it doesn't work with searches :( 15:42:24 rip 15:42:36 <|amethyst> I couldn't figure out how to get a command with ?? to expand $user correctly 15:42:38 update todo remains on the todo 15:42:43 <|amethyst> and !learn q doesn't do searches 15:42:58 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:35 -!- dat0ctopode has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:48:00 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 15:48:08 ??moss 15:48:08 I don't have a page labeled moss in my learndb. 15:48:21 no learn db entry so clearly it doesn't exist :v 15:50:12 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:19 ??mold 15:50:19 ballistomycete[1/3]: they make a buttload of spores 15:50:36 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 15:50:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 15:50:37 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:50:40 <|amethyst> %git b400b11c 15:50:41 07|amethyst02 * 0.11-a0-1969-gb400b11: Giant spores are fungi. 10(2 years, 2 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b400b11c33a4 15:51:19 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:01 -!- shaletown has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:52:04 hm 15:52:17 something in learndb should probably mention the interaction between mold and evolution 15:52:27 since that is a weird mega secret 15:54:12 <|amethyst> I don't even know what that interaction is 15:54:18 <|amethyst> but I don't play much Fedhas so 15:55:48 |amethyst: imo play more Fedhas :) 15:55:50 !learn s mold Giant spores trail this behind them. Fedhasites can use {evolution[2]} to turn it into wandering mushrooms. When active ballistomycetes die, the mold trails flash to indicate where other ballistomycetes are. Otherwise, decorative. 15:55:50 mold[1/1]: Giant spores trail this behind them. Fedhasites can use {evolution[2]} to turn it into wandering mushrooms. When active ballistomycetes die, the mold trails flash to indicate where other ballistomycetes are. Otherwise, decorative. 15:56:10 -!- MgDark_HuIE has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:57:50 Grunt: tbh it's really hidden even for fedhasites 15:58:21 use sunlight more then 15:58:22 <_< 15:58:56 the evo targeter only defaults to targeting mold if there's no other valid targets onscreen, and there's no real reason that you'd think of using evo when there wasn't an actual fungus/plant/w/e onscreen, since mold is strictly decorative for every other character 15:58:58 you walk on it! 15:59:25 <|amethyst> FR: god that does something with blood 15:59:30 seems like we'd better 15:59:31 !glasses 15:59:31 ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■) 15:59:32 mould it 15:59:34 to our liking 15:59:35 !!! 15:59:35 <|amethyst> spawns mandrakes or something 15:59:39 |amethyst: BLOOD AND SOULS!? 15:59:40 ..............that doesn't even mean anything, grunt. 15:59:50 PleasingFungus: dang, I've been found out :( 15:59:54 rip 16:00:17 (fwiw it made me laugh anyway) 16:00:17 <|amethyst> Ąlearn add Grunt full of puns and fury, and signifying nothing 16:00:18 Okay, not adding Grunt => full of puns and fury, and signifying nothing 16:00:23 <3 16:00:26 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:00:32 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:48 it is a joke, told by a Grunt, full of puns and fury, signifying nothing 16:01:02 1learn add pun 16:01:05 Grunt flies into a rage! 16:01:12 !discord PleasingFungus 16:01:12 PleasingFungus flies into a frenzy! 16:01:16 close enough 16:01:27 * Grunt goads PleasingFungus on! PleasingFungus goes berserk! 16:01:58 * PleasingFungus punishes Grunt brutally!!!! 16:02:01 or something 16:03:36 <|amethyst> !punished grunt 16:03:36 grunt pun-ishes |amethyst, causing immense pain!!! 16:04:26 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: Killed by a kitten.] 16:06:25 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:07:27 -!- allbefore has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:44 -!- CipHuK has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:46 -!- puissantveil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:11:17 -!- brainwrinkle has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:36 a mince pane 16:14:00 ontoclasm: any happenings? 16:14:09 i'm making faces 16:14:13 wow 16:14:20 !discord fruit 16:14:20 fruit flies into a frenzy! 16:14:43 fr: chance for !glasses to backfire like !banish 16:14:52 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:15:31 <|amethyst> ÂĄlearn add discord_fruit ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ 16:15:32 Okay, not adding discord_fruit => ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ 16:15:33 -!- Lumpydoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:16:37 <|amethyst> I had a :beh: that would make Grunt (only Grunt) collapse into a black hole occasionally 16:16:42 <|amethyst> then it was removed :( 16:16:45 what 16:16:47 who removed it 16:16:48 :( 16:17:06 <|amethyst> Don't remember, maybe it was me 16:17:33 <|amethyst> it was probably when several of Kramin's ill-advised :beh:s were removed 16:17:52 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:18:10 <|amethyst> !learn add :beh: {{nick:Grunt}} !glasses ::: $(if (not (rand 20)) "Grunt collapsed into a black hole today. Authorities cite the accretion disk of billions and billions of pairs of sunglasses as a contributing factor.") ::: continue 16:18:11 :beh:[18/18]: {{nick:Grunt}} !glasses ::: $(if (not (rand 20)) "Grunt collapsed into a black hole today. Authorities cite the accretion disk of billions and billions of pairs of sunglasses as a contributing factor.") ::: continue 16:18:21 <3 16:18:37 <|amethyst> (decreased the chance, it had been 1/10 the first time) 16:20:24 ??:beh: 16:20:24 :beh:[1/18]: /me >>> ::: ::: continue 16:20:27 ??:beh: [2] 16:20:29 :beh:[2/18]: r\?\? ::: book_of_the_warp[1/1]: Recall, Control Teleport, Phase Shift, Warp Weapon, Dispersal, Controlled Blink, Disjunction ::: last 16:20:41 <|amethyst> note that ?? doesn't show the whole thing 16:20:56 <|amethyst> because of $() stuff 16:21:00 <|amethyst> !learn q :beh:[1] 16:21:01 :beh:[1/18]: /me >>> ::: $(if (not (rand 100)) (if (match Sequell $after) "/me $(replace Sequell $user $after)" "/me also $after")) ::: continue 16:21:14 <|amethyst> !learn q :beh:[2] 16:21:15 :beh:[2/18]: r\?\? ::: $(randnth $(ldb-search-entries .)) ::: last 16:21:20 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:21:32 <|amethyst> \??:beh:[1] 16:22:09 <|amethyst> oh, I guess that doesn't work (and probably wouldn't work anyway even if it did work) 16:22:19 rip 16:24:43 <|amethyst> hm, need a simple bug to fix 16:25:09 <|amethyst> FR: "ease of fix" field in Mantis, because I'm sure submitters would get that right 16:25:26 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:26:42 Difficulty: "wtf devs ugh" 16:26:57 i just made the best tile ever 16:27:01 and nobody will see it :C 16:27:10 <|amethyst> why's that? 16:27:25 it's for berserker rage 16:27:30 |amethyst: clearly it should not be settable at submission time ;-P 16:27:31 (and evoke berserk) 16:27:46 or, well, by non-devs 16:27:59 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: do evocable abilities not have icons in local tiles? 16:28:04 (From mantis' PoV, which is obviously a bit more inclusive than gitorious' PoV) 16:28:11 they do, but still 16:28:20 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:28:31 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: actually, the evocable one would be in the abilities tab the whole time 16:28:35 you have to have a +Rage item and hit a? 16:28:41 <|amethyst> in local tiles 16:28:56 oh, i forgot local had an abilities tab 16:28:56 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:09 <|amethyst> whether you see it probably depends on resolution 16:30:43 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:32:47 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:15 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:28 ??triple crossbow 16:33:28 triple crossbow[1/1]: Like a crossbow, but three times as good! Base damage 23, base/mindelay 23/10. Historically known as a Chuangzi Nu. Not suitable for shaving. 16:33:30 ...also i just realized i accidentally made a fifth element reference 16:33:35 how come that was nerfed down to 23 damage 16:34:22 devs hate fun 16:36:37 (it's still Quite Powerful) 16:36:41 hm 16:36:45 I wonder if anyone's found newsniper yet 16:37:38 I'm pretty sure I saw someone find it. 16:37:41 they didn't use it though 16:37:44 ;-; 16:37:53 purple very ugly thing (13u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 73-116 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 36 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 910 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 16:37:53 %??Very ugly thing 16:37:59 hm 16:38:02 I stumbled into it in zigsprint, but didn't use it because qazlal was too busy letting me disaster area the zig to death 16:38:49 fr: put Sniper into the starting room of zigsprint alongside the dark maul 16:39:00 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-2374-gaadabb3: Mask-based (and a few other) spell tiles 10(8 minutes ago, 10 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aadabb3ee9cf 16:40:01 also I found Brilliance 16:40:17 maybe the enchantment could go up on it a little, +1 is pathetic by artifact standards 16:40:57 Brilliance? 16:41:43 mace of Brilliance 16:41:53 it got upgraded to an eveningstar but only has a +1 enchantment now 16:41:54 oh 16:41:57 ??Mace of Brilliance 16:41:57 mace of brilliance[1/1]: the +5,+5 mace of Brilliance {holy, rN+ AC+5 Int+5 SInv Stlth-}. Free {halo} on equip! 16:42:08 as an eveningstar it's often still going to be better than your other 1h maces 16:42:08 oops 16:42:18 !learn e Sequell s/$/ In 0.15, a +1 eveningstar. 16:42:19 Use: !learn edit Sequell[NUM] s/// 16:42:27 !learn e mace_of_brilliance[1 s/$/ In 0.15, a +1 eveningstar. 16:42:28 mace of brilliance[1/1]: the +5,+5 mace of Brilliance {holy, rN+ AC+5 Int+5 SInv Stlth-}. Free {halo} on equip! In 0.15, a +1 eveningstar. 16:42:30 rip 16:42:44 +1 is rather silly enchantment for an unrandart, yes. 16:42:50 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:54 fine, make it +0 then 16:43:00 +1 is magic 16:43:18 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:14 it's +1 so you can beat DR 5/Magic 16:44:20 h 16:44:21 ha 16:45:08 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:59 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:16 so when do we add DR to crawl :v 16:47:41 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:51 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:48:06 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:23 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:17 it might encourage people to play better (using enchant scrolls earlier) -- or just punsh them for never finding any 16:49:25 -!- Behavioral has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:49:43 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:11 rchandra, I am almost certain that was a joke 16:50:15 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:27 anyway lightli 16:50:31 %git :/illiance 16:50:31 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-2263-g64debdd: Make the Mace of Brilliance into a(n) (evening)star 10(5 days ago, 2 files, 10+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=64debdd04e12 16:50:42 as usual, the reasoning for +1 is in there 16:51:12 k 16:54:12 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:58 so when will lethal infusion come back 16:55:15 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Spd: 10 | HD: 23 | HP: 156-231 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 33, 25, 19, 1303(constrict) | 05demonic, 10doors, amphibious, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(153), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2969 | Sp: berserker rage | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 16:55:15 %??Tentacled monstrosity perm_ench:berserk perm_ench:slow 16:55:34 monstrous monstrosity 16:56:31 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:37 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:00 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:36 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Spd: 10 | HD: 23 | HP: 104-154 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Dam: 22, 17, 13, 903(constrict) | 05demonic, 10doors, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(153), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2969 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 16:57:36 %??tentacled monstrosity 16:57:46 wow tentacled monstrosities are weaker than I thought 16:58:04 yes 16:58:11 they're surprisingly tame for HD 23 monsters 16:58:23 double that AC and EV, give them a 50% damage boost, and give them speed 11 16:58:32 Cerebov (05&) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Dam: 60 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm (8d16), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon / fire storm (8d17), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 16:58:32 %??Cerebov 16:58:37 he he he 16:58:57 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:59:22 -!- namad7 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:59:41 Cerebov (05&) | Spd: 10 | HD: 30 | HP: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Dam: 60 | 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(240), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm (8d23), iron shot (3d48), haste, sum.greater demon / fire storm (8d24), iron shot (3d48), haste, sum.greater demon | Sz: Giant | Int: normal. 16:59:41 %??cerebov hd:30 17:00:00 Frederick (03@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 159 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 27 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | XP: 3749 | Sp: mystic blast (3d25), b.cold (3d30), invisibility, iron shot (3d36) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:00:00 %??frederick 17:00:45 Unknown spell name: 'fire storm,iron shot,haste,summon greater demon' in 'fire_storm,iron_shot,haste,summon_greater_demon' 17:00:45 %??frederick name:Cerebov spells:fire_storm,iron_shot,haste,summon_greater_demon 17:00:54 Cerebov (03@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 159 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 27 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | XP: 5022 | Sp: fire storm (8d16), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon / fire storm (8d17), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:00:54 %??frederick name:Cerebov spells:fire_storm;iron_shot;haste;summon_greater_demon 17:01:03 unknown monster: "frederick HP:650" 17:01:03 %??frederick name:Cerebov spells:fire_storm;iron_shot;haste;summon_greater_demon HP:650 17:01:15 Cerebov (03@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 21 | HP: 650 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 27 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm (8d16), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon / fire storm (8d17), iron shot (3d36), haste, sum.greater demon | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:01:15 %??frederick name:Cerebov spells:fire_storm;iron_shot;haste;summon_greater_demon hp:650 17:01:18 taday 17:01:22 *tada 17:01:49 wow man 17:01:53 -30 AC 17:01:55 that's rough 17:02:12 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:34 -!- namad8 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:05:45 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:08:10 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:29 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:10 -!- namad7 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:54 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:05 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:17 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-2374-gaadabb3 (34) 17:20:22 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2375-gba7f006: Forbid butchering/eating Xtahua and Gastronok under Zin (#7726) 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ba7f0067d3dc 17:21:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:21:32 yeah idk if we really want to encourage the "yay I get to eat elf twins" crowd 17:21:36 because wtf 17:22:55 any chance of them getting different titles, like 'the sword' and 'the robe' or 'the runes' ? 17:23:22 <|amethyst> The Cross and The Switchblade 17:23:58 probably titles should get a second pass sometime before release 17:24:04 given they are literally a first draft 17:24:25 <|amethyst> by more sober folks, if we have those :P 17:24:44 <|amethyst> ("sober" in the sense of "boring", not "not drunk") 17:24:59 oh speaking of titles, khufu's is weird 17:25:06 ha, was about to recommend mpa 17:25:13 !source dat/database/montitle.txt 17:25:13 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/database/montitle.txt;hb=HEAD 17:25:18 in that it's the only one that is <name> as opposed to <name> <title> 17:25:35 <MarvinPA> oh dissolution too 17:26:10 <|amethyst> What about "Khufu, Pharaoh of Dust" to parallel Menkaure ? 17:26:35 <PleasingFungus> the undying pharaoh is fine tbh 17:26:53 <PleasingFungus> menkaure is prince of dust for a very specific reason; khufu is... more meglomaniacal 17:27:06 <PleasingFungus> also, more explicitly egyptian-themed 17:27:08 <PleasingFungus> somehow 17:27:48 <|amethyst> Isn't Menkaure Khufu's grandson? 17:27:55 <PleasingFungus> what 17:28:06 <PleasingFungus> !source dat/descript/monsters.txt 17:28:06 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt;hb=HEAD 17:28:10 <|amethyst> Khufu -> Khafra -> Menkaure 17:28:13 <|amethyst> I mean IRL, not in Crawl 17:28:19 <PleasingFungus> oh 17:28:37 <PleasingFungus> tbh I didn't know menkaure was a real pharaoh name 17:29:57 <MarvinPA> arachne could do with a new title i guess, also the removal of a speech line or two 17:30:22 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: The three great pyramids of Giza? Menkaure's is the smallest, Khufu's the largest 17:30:24 <MarvinPA> sorely missed though they would be 17:30:34 <PleasingFungus> the current name is a joke about that one terrible speech line, iirc. which is funny, but probably doesn't need to be in 0.15 17:30:43 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: iirc I just changed the awful line to be very low weight? 17:30:46 <PleasingFungus> which fits with other joke lines 17:30:51 <PleasingFungus> I might be misremembering 17:30:54 <MarvinPA> nope, it's full weight 17:30:57 <PleasingFungus> hm 17:31:02 <PleasingFungus> imho fix that 17:31:09 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: I knew the latter but not the former! 17:32:45 <PleasingFungus> hm 17:32:47 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "eric" 17:32:47 <PleasingFungus> %??eric 17:32:49 <Cheibriados> Erica (06@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 64 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 929 | Sp: b.venom (3d14), mystic blast (3d14), invisibility, confuse, slow, 04esc:teleport self | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:32:49 <PleasingFungus> %??erica 17:32:59 <PleasingFungus> I wonder if erica would be more interesting if she was revamped to be some kind of fannar counterpart 17:33:16 <PleasingFungus> as opposed to being A Flaming Scimitar + Unique 17:33:45 <|amethyst> not even the only one! 17:34:30 <Cheibriados> white ugly thing (15u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 48-84 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1712(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 557 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 17:34:30 <|amethyst> %??white ugly thing 17:34:33 <Cheibriados> white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 76-121 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:18-53) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 17:34:33 <|amethyst> %??white very ugly thing 17:35:12 <ontoclasm> replace her b.venom with parrow 17:37:00 <Cheibriados> white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 45-85 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1812(cold:12-35) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 803 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 17:37:00 <PleasingFungus> %?white very ugly thing 17:42:25 <Cheibriados> salamander firebrand (16N) | Spd: 10 (move: 80%; swim: 70%) | HD: 15 | HP: 75-118 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Dam: 2805(firebrand:15-29) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(80), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1341 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 17:42:25 <PleasingFungus> %??salamander firebrand 17:42:40 <Cheibriados> salamander firebrand (16N) | Spd: 10 (move: 80%; swim: 70%) | HD: 9 | HP: 44-75 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Dam: 2805(firebrand:9-17) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(48), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 613 | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 17:42:40 <PleasingFungus> %??salamander firebrand hd:9 17:43:40 <Cheibriados> Unknown spell name: 'confuse,slow,mystic blast' in 'confuse,slow,mystic_blast' 17:43:40 <PleasingFungus> %??salamander firebrand hd:9 name:erica n_rpl spells:confuse,slow,mystic_blast 17:43:54 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "salamander firebrand spell:confuse spell:slow spell:mystic_blast" 17:43:54 <PleasingFungus> %??salamander firebrand hd:9 name:erica n_rpl spell:confuse spell:slow spell:mystic_blast 17:44:04 <geekosaur> doesn't spells use ; 17:44:18 <Cheibriados> Unknown spell name: 'mystic blast' in 'confuse;slow;mystic_blast' 17:44:18 <PleasingFungus> %??salamander firebrand hd:9 name:erica n_rpl spells:confuse;slow;mystic_blast 17:44:30 <PleasingFungus> I give up 17:44:57 <geekosaur> fr sensible parsing and fuzzy matching 17:45:06 <Cheibriados> Tiamat (16d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 22 | HP: 380 | AC/EV: 39/20 | Dam: 60, 45 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(58), 02cold, 03poison | Vul: 11silver | XP: 9228 | Sp: b.lightning (3d25) / b.quicksilver (3d20) / cold breath (3d28) / fire breath (3d28) / poisonous cloud (3d13) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 17:45:06 <Bloax> %??Tiamat 17:45:16 <Bloax> damn 17:45:22 <Bloax> those are some weak spells 17:46:27 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:38 <PleasingFungus> !killratio erica 17:46:40 <Sequell> erica wins 2.022% of battles. 17:46:50 <PleasingFungus> holy shit, for that early-game a unique? 17:46:53 <Bloax> !killratio Tiamat 17:46:54 <Sequell> Tiamat wins 3.831% of battles. 17:46:55 <PleasingFungus> !killratio harold 17:46:57 <Sequell> harold wins 2.429% of battles. 17:47:02 <Bloax> tiamat stronk 17:47:03 <PleasingFungus> !killratio fannar 17:47:05 <Sequell> fannar wins 2.035% of battles. 17:47:08 <PleasingFungus> huh 17:47:21 <PleasingFungus> !killratio psyche 17:47:23 <Sequell> psyche wins 1.542% of battles. 17:47:29 <PleasingFungus> doesn't count if she banishes you, I suppose 17:47:32 <Cheibriados> orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 17-40 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 132 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:47:32 <Bloax> %??Orc warrior 17:47:45 <rchandra> or chaos paralysis and somebody else gets the kill 17:48:03 <PleasingFungus> true 17:48:17 <Bloax> Erica is rather unthreatening by the time I usually meet her. 17:48:26 <Bloax> which is strange 17:48:56 <rchandra> the most dangerous thing about erica is explore into invis if you don't have enough lag to actually see it 17:50:13 <Bloax> ??drain brand 17:50:14 <Sequell> drain brand ~ draining brand[1/2]: 2/3 chance of doing on average 25% extra damage to susceptible monsters, doing 1+1d3 extra damage and removing that much from max HP. If the 2/3 chance is hit, it has a further 20% chance to drop HD by 1. Only affects monsters of normal {holiness} with no rN. Players with rN+/rN++ are still affected (but get drained less and take less damage). 17:50:17 <Bloax> ??drain brand[2] 17:50:18 <Sequell> drain brand ~ draining brand[2/2]: Monsters that lose HD will naturally give less XP, but this is barely noticeable. Reduces the strength of shapeshifter forms. Disliked by good gods. 17:50:25 <Bloax> is this even relevant for 0.15 17:50:51 <PleasingFungus> the former is explicitly false for 0.15 17:50:57 <PleasingFungus> don't recall re: the second lin 17:50:58 <PleasingFungus> e 17:52:34 <PleasingFungus> ??27[jory 17:52:35 <Sequell> 27[8/27]: number of months it took for jory to kill someone 17:52:48 <Bloax> haha 17:53:06 <Bloax> that was back when he only spawned in his castle of never spawning 17:53:19 <Cheibriados> Jory (04V) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 180 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 40, 1505(vampiric) | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3954 | Sp: crystal spear (3d37), mesmerise, blink close, 04esc:vampiric draining | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 17:53:19 <Bloax> %??Jory 17:53:29 <Bloax> nowadays he's a bit more potent 17:53:43 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:44 <PleasingFungus> oh man I remember his castle 17:53:47 <PleasingFungus> is it still around? 17:53:50 <PleasingFungus> I haven't seen it in a while 17:53:57 -!- surprisetrex has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:10 <PleasingFungus> !killratio jory 17:54:12 <Sequell> jory wins 2.079% of battles. 17:56:37 <Cheibriados> Norris (07@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 214 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Dam: 36 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(133) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 5062 | Sp: brain feed, smiting (7-17), invisibility, confuse, paralyse, 04esc:minor healing (2d10) | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:56:37 <PleasingFungus> %??norris 17:57:01 <PleasingFungus> imho replace brain feed with torment 17:58:57 -!- Davens has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:08 <Grunt> !killratio jory * cv=0.15-a 18:01:10 <Sequell> jory wins 1.311% of battles against * (cv=0.15-a). 18:01:12 <Grunt> !killratio norris * cv=0.15-a 18:01:14 <Sequell> norris wins 1.696% of battles against * (cv=0.15-a). 18:01:20 <Grunt> deadlier than Jory!!!!!! 18:03:57 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:43 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:29 <Bloaxor> well norris is hd 20 18:05:35 <Bloaxor> and he can spawn in shoals 18:05:48 <Bloaxor> which means that he'll likely crush your pitiful pip or two of MR 18:05:56 <Bloaxor> and paralyse the shit out of you 18:06:55 <PleasingFungus> think how much cooler it'd be if he had torment, though 18:06:58 <PleasingFungus> remember: death cultist!!! 18:07:15 <PleasingFungus> not actually convinced it'd make him more effective but that's really beside the point 18:07:45 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:07:56 <Lasty> Torment would definitely make him more effective, unless it hurts him too . . . 18:08:10 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08:32 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:03 <PleasingFungus> of course it does 18:11:18 <Bloaxor> clearly give him a lot of resistances and AC/EV to make him effective at low hp 18:11:24 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:11:36 <PleasingFungus> esc: minor healing (2d10) seems like it might interact in funny ways with torment 18:13:11 <Bloaxor> well torment, paralysis and selfheal seems like a good way to nuke your hp from a distance while keeping a bunch of hp on the monster that does it 18:13:52 <Lasty> That would be pretty hilarious . . . 18:13:54 <Lasty> and nasty too 18:14:14 -!- pikaro has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:14:41 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:17:30 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:18:08 <Lasty> !tell reaverb thanks for merging master into iashol branch! 18:18:08 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let reaverb know. 18:18:36 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:04 <rchandra> %git :/[Aa]rcana 18:20:04 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-1835-g2c6efd2: Forget correct spells with Sacrifice Arcana. 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c6efd2dad07 18:20:12 -!- predator217 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:21:35 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:49 -!- ketsa has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446]] 18:25:50 -!- neunon has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:24 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:23 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:32 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:30:10 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:32:05 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:25 -!- Mandragora has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:41:01 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2376-gaec5098: Don't remove extra horns when appendage ends (#8311) 10(36 minutes ago, 1 file, 27+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aec5098ce35c 18:41:01 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2377-g759c9e4: Improve innate mutation override messaging (#7324) 10(25 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=759c9e49c03e 18:42:30 <PleasingFungus> oh man, nice! 18:42:37 <PleasingFungus> bugfixin' machine 18:47:13 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:47:16 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:12 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:22 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus bugs 18:50:22 <Sequell> Sending bugs to PleasingFungus. 18:50:30 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:36 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:52:38 <PleasingFungus> gross, dude 18:52:44 -!- rast- is now known as rast 18:52:47 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus more bugs 18:52:47 <Sequell> Sending more bugs to PleasingFungus. 18:53:03 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus a buggy ugly thing 18:53:03 <Sequell> Sending a buggy ugly thing to PleasingFungus. 18:53:08 <PleasingFungus> nooooooo 18:53:18 <PleasingFungus> ...ugly buggy thing? 18:53:43 -!- ProzacElf_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:27 -!- neunon has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:46 -!- lrvs has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:55:13 <Grunt> no no no 18:55:18 <Cheibriados> buggy ugly thing (02u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 48-84 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 17 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 557 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal. 18:55:18 <Grunt> %??ugly thing col:blue 18:55:20 <Grunt> buggy ugly thing 18:55:20 <Grunt> !!! 18:56:00 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:14 <Cheibriados> buggy very ugly thing (12u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 76-121 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 27 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 18:56:14 <Grunt> %??very ugly thing col:lightblue 18:56:31 <Lasty> Bugly thing 18:56:31 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:37 <Grunt> imo buggly thing 18:56:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:57:19 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:25 <TS__> snuggly thing 18:57:27 <TS__> ! 18:57:37 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:48 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:57:48 -!- rast- is now known as rast 18:57:56 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:14 -!- ProzacElf_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58:38 <Grunt> ugly thing attack:17,constrict 18:58:46 <PleasingFungus> <3 18:59:17 <ontoclasm> pink very fuzzy thing 18:59:25 <PleasingFungus> very snuggly thing would be an excellent monster 18:59:42 <TS__> are there any monsters you can't attack 18:59:44 <Grunt> !send PleasingFungus tmons 18:59:44 <Sequell> Sending tmons to PleasingFungus. 18:59:51 <TS__> or things that aren't you 19:00:03 <TS__> just make snuggly things unattackable random cute scenery 19:00:06 <Lasty> It follows you around but doesn't attack you. If you attack it, it turns incredibly nasty. 19:00:24 <TS__> or 19:00:31 <TS__> protection from everything 19:00:37 <TS__> no harming the snuggly things 19:00:48 <Lasty> Harming it makes all gods angry 19:00:56 <TS__> even xom 19:00:57 <Lasty> Even Makhleb 19:01:00 <Lasty> Especially Makhleb 19:01:11 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:12 <TS__> "Even I have standards" 19:01:19 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:25 <Bloaxor> the snuggly thing itself is unkillable 19:01:30 <Bloaxor> but attacking it increases penance by 1 for all gods 19:01:31 <ontoclasm> you didn't know? makh is a 7 year old girl 19:01:33 <Bloaxor> except makhleb 19:01:39 <Bloaxor> for whom it increases by 3 19:01:48 <ontoclasm> the "servants" are her stuffed animals 19:02:22 <wheals> balrug von hugsford 19:02:28 <TS__> just imagine a monster you can't attack 19:02:30 <TS__> imagine the rage 19:02:34 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:02:39 <TS__> "You can't bring yourself to hurt the snuggly thing" 19:02:41 -!- rast- is now known as rast 19:02:51 <Lasty> ontoclasm: I'll start working on the patch now. 19:02:57 <ontoclasm> tavern crashes after crate posts a 25,000 essay on it 19:03:11 <TS__> many laughs are had 19:04:59 -!- mamgar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:05:43 <Lasty> rchandra: did you say that Sack of Spiders didn't get marked useless under Ru? 19:06:04 <Lasty> Oh, right, under sac love, not sac artifice 19:06:14 <wheals> oh for erica, i think my suggestion for what to give her is an axe 19:06:30 <Bloaxor> BATTLEAXE 19:06:32 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:06:39 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:45 <Bloaxor> maybe raise her hp to 96 too 19:06:46 <Bloaxor> iunno 19:06:56 <Lasty> Lasty1: get out of here, you impostor! 19:07:00 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:07:13 <Lasty> How do I have so many accounts in here? :p 19:07:18 <rchandra> Lasty 123: I think it was the rods being unusable with conjurations gone 19:07:27 <rchandra> like rod of inacc or ignition 19:07:28 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:07:49 <Lasty> Oh, yeah -- that's intentional. You should still be able to use wands that relate to a given spell school under sac arcana 19:07:52 -!- Lasty2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:08:18 <rchandra> but not rods? 19:08:26 <wheals> also imo the iron giant's title should be the iron giant the iron giant 19:08:35 <Lasty> and rods 19:08:38 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:08:41 <Lasty> wait, did you say the rods -didn't- work? 19:08:44 <rchandra> right 19:08:47 <Lasty> whoa 19:08:54 <Grunt> wheals: imo "the iron giant" is enough of a title 19:08:55 <Lasty> that's crazy 19:09:31 <ontoclasm> have erica start with a rod 19:09:45 <rchandra> You cannot cast that spell in your current form! 19:09:56 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:09:58 -!- rast- is now known as rast 19:10:14 <rchandra> using a lightning rod with charms/conj/fire/hex/ice/necr blocked 19:10:19 <Lasty> rchandra: I'm going to recompile and check it out 19:10:52 <ontoclasm> rod "spells" have schools because ??? 19:11:21 <rchandra> it's particularly bad since it's not visible ingame, and the rods are presumable also blocked by Sac Artifice 19:11:54 <Lasty> ontoclasm: yeah, that surprises me 19:12:14 <Lasty> rchandra: Yeah, that's definitely not intended 19:12:52 <rchandra> destruction also blocked but not shadows, with that set 19:13:13 <Lasty> Hopefully I can do some kind of spell.source == ROD or something 19:13:27 -!- allbefore has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:13:35 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:37 <Lasty> Shadows would be Summoning, I'd guess, so no surprise 19:14:29 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:03 <Lasty> did it block wands? 19:15:58 <rchandra> lightning wand is working 19:16:44 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-2378-g330192d: Adjust some unique titles 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=330192dc2e79 19:16:44 <Cheibriados> 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-2379-g4495d8f: Remove some unique speech lines 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4495d8fc2959 19:17:13 -!- DarkEternal has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:17:19 <Lasty> Ok, I can reproduce the issue. Now to figure out a solution. 19:17:38 <Grunt> montitle.txt, the new bikeshedding cage 19:17:39 <Grunt> <_< 19:17:44 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:17:47 <Lasty> Any devs know offhand if there's a way to tell if there source of a spell is a wan? 19:17:47 -!- rast- is now known as rast 19:17:49 <Lasty> er a rod 19:18:24 <Bloaxor> well for one they wouldn't be in any book 19:18:41 <Bloaxor> and i'm almost halfway sure no rods use actual spells now 19:19:24 <Bloaxor> (which is why the first thing makes sense) 19:19:41 <Lasty> They use actual spells, but not ones you can learn 19:20:22 <MarvinPA> there is a way yes, check what battlesphere and antimagic and so on look for i imagine 19:20:29 <Bloaxor> well that's why i said "actual" spells 19:20:42 <Lasty> MarvinPA: Thanks! 19:20:43 <Bloaxor> since while they technically are spells, they aren't spells in the sense that you can cast them 19:20:46 <Lasty> FR: Box of beats. 19:22:15 <Grunt> Lasty: evoke for sonic damage? 19:22:23 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:38 <Lasty> And also inflict dance status (functionally confuse) 19:24:19 <PleasingFungus> rip the spider queen :( 19:24:24 <PleasingFungus> oh well 19:24:31 <PleasingFungus> (the speech line, not the title) 19:24:51 <PleasingFungus> Is anyone working on the trunkification of Gozag? I guess this is mainly a question for Grunt, since I don't know who else would be 19:24:55 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:25:13 <Grunt> I'm not, right now. 19:25:28 <PleasingFungus> Hm. 19:25:33 <Lasty> Gozag isn't trunk? 19:25:41 <PleasingFungus> Trunk-only-ification. 19:27:09 <PleasingFungus> well, if no one else has started on it by the time I finish my ACID BOLT work, I suppose I should. 19:29:32 <PleasingFungus> ??ee 19:29:32 <Sequell> earth elementalist[1/1]: A spellcaster that starts out with some earth magic skill, a {book of Geomancy}, and some rocks to use with {Sandblast}. 19:30:30 <PleasingFungus> ??book of hinderance 19:30:31 <Sequell> book of hinderance[1/1]: Confusing Touch, Slow, Confuse, Petrify, Leda's Liquefaction, Metabolic Englaciation 19:35:10 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:37:34 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:41:48 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:06 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:42:12 -!- Zermako has quit [] 19:43:21 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:30 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:41 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45:18 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: you mind if I make mana vipers corpseless? 19:45:46 -!- rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:18 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:36 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:16 -!- rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:47:35 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: no real objection, but I'm not sure it really matters either 19:47:44 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:47:51 <PleasingFungus> no, it doesn't really matter 19:47:54 <PleasingFungus> but it makes me happier 19:47:56 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: they are MH_NATURAL, but then again so are ice beasts :) 19:48:20 <|amethyst> go for it 19:48:31 <PleasingFungus> :) 19:48:42 <PleasingFungus> man, what *are* ice beasts, anyway? 19:49:16 <|amethyst> Beasts made of ice 19:49:24 <|amethyst> with both paws and fists 19:49:32 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:36 -!- ldierk has quit [Changing host] 19:49:36 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:52 <PleasingFungus> hm 19:49:54 <PleasingFungus> yes. 19:50:14 -!- rast-- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:50:25 <Grunt> 1learn add guru_wisdom <PleasingFungus> man, what *are* ice beasts, anyway? <|amethyst> Beasts made of ice 19:51:51 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:22 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:41 -!- rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:54:17 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:18 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:34 -!- puissantveil has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:00 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:55:07 <PleasingFungus> hm. I wonder if firestarter would be a good fit for zigsprint? 19:55:12 <PleasingFungus> devastator is there. 19:55:19 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:39 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: it's a good song and therefore gets my approval 19:55:58 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:56:58 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:07 <Bloaxor> Firestarter would be a great fit for zigsprint. 19:57:14 <Lasty> Blerg. It looks like I'll need to pass allow_fail through a bunch of functions in order to figure out if the spell is from a rod or not in cannot_use_spell_school :p 19:57:29 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:43 <ontoclasm> Lasty: add a "Rod" spell school 19:57:54 <ontoclasm> give it to everything on rods, and check for that 19:57:59 <ontoclasm> imo 19:58:05 <Lasty> If you're cool with that, I would love to do that 19:58:20 <ontoclasm> (i have no idea if this is a good idea actually) 19:58:28 -!- rast-- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:58:32 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:34 <Lasty> Well . . . anyone against that idea? 19:58:38 <ais523_> make sure it doesn't show in the skills menu, or as a manual, or allow experience to be placed into it 19:58:45 <Lasty> It wouldn't be a skill 19:58:57 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:57 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 19:59:01 <ais523_> right, but it's probably an easy mistake to make, because most schools are 19:59:21 <PleasingFungus> it might be tricky, since spell schools are displayed on ?/S 20:00:22 <ais523_> implementing rod spells as monster spells might be easiest, because monster spells already have most of the desired properties 20:00:30 <ais523_> spells that exist in the game, but aren't accessible to the player 20:00:48 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:01:00 <PleasingFungus> would that help make the desired distinction? 20:01:05 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:01:20 <ais523_> well, monster spells don't have schools at all, do they? 20:01:24 <PleasingFungus> yes they do 20:01:28 <ais523_> hmm 20:01:37 <Lasty> I'm not sure. Can you determine if a spell is a "monster" spell from the spell object? My guess is no 20:01:43 <PleasingFungus> not afaik 20:01:58 <PleasingFungus> !source spl-data.h 20:01:58 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h;hb=HEAD 20:02:00 -!- rast-- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:04 <ontoclasm> in ?/S monster spells get shown in grey i think 20:02:08 <Bloaxor> dith shadows casting the monster versions of the spells you casted was the best thing ever 20:02:12 <PleasingFungus> because they don't appear in any books 20:02:12 <Lasty> I suppose another option would be to add a "from_rod" property to the spell object 20:02:14 <Bloaxor> especially if you used freezing cloud 20:02:21 <PleasingFungus> likewise I believe rod spells appear in grey 20:02:34 <Bloaxor> rip in pepperoni dith shadow guy 20:02:37 <ontoclasm> oh, it checks books for them? 20:02:40 <ontoclasm> hm 20:02:41 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:48 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:02:51 <PleasingFungus> I'm not certain but I think that's the logic 20:02:57 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:59 -!- rast- is now known as rast 20:04:20 <Lasty> So, in brief, I'm not sure how to approach this in a way that is likely to be accepted. 20:04:44 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:45 <PleasingFungus> I wonder if maijin-bo would be a fun zigsprint artefact 20:05:56 <PleasingFungus> feh. I'll toss it in too 20:06:11 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06:27 <Bloaxor> maybe you should toss in more potions of experience while you're at it 20:06:42 -!- rast-- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:06:45 <Bloaxor> so as to kill some stupid instadeath at the first floor 20:06:56 <PleasingFungus> bloax, I literally ignore every suggestion that you make that equates to "make the game easier". 20:07:07 <PleasingFungus> you are a broken record. 20:07:14 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:36 <Bloaxor> PleasingFungus: okay don't listen to me then 20:07:36 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:43 <Bloaxor> you go kill a fucking panlord at XL2 20:07:51 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:53 <PleasingFungus> ? 20:08:17 <Bloaxor> there are no restrictions as for what spawns on the first chamber of zigsprint 20:08:43 <Bloaxor> and quite a lot of things can oneshot you due to you not having any hp at all 20:09:24 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:10:16 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2380-g2de37e3: Make colour-swapping work in webtiles (#8271) 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2de37e36d23f 20:10:21 <Grunt> Bloaxor: there are restrictions, actually. 20:10:29 <Bloaxor> well yes 20:10:35 <Bloaxor> i haven't met an oof 20:10:40 <Grunt> Bloaxor: the first ... seven or eight ... levels have a different set from the rest of the zig. 20:10:48 <Grunt> There are four sets altogether that are set throughout the zig. 20:11:46 <PleasingFungus> looks like it can, in fact, spawn a pan lord in the first room 20:11:54 <PleasingFungus> that's pretty funny 20:12:10 <Bloaxor> it's funny the first couple of times 20:12:12 <PleasingFungus> !source dat/des/sprints/zigsprint.des:172 20:12:12 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprints/zigsprint.des;hb=HEAD#l172 20:12:13 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: is it Plog the pandemonium lord and can it cast Fire Storm? 20:12:41 <PleasingFungus> !source dat/des/sprint/zigsprint.des:172 20:12:42 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/zigsprint.des;hb=HEAD#l172 20:12:55 <Grunt> (fr bring back Plog the pandemonium lord somehow) 20:12:56 <PleasingFungus> Grunt: hopefully!!! 20:13:15 <PleasingFungus> it can also spawn... "human"? 20:13:27 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:29 <rchandra> "human" can be tough at xl2 20:13:34 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:40 <PleasingFungus> I think that might be what it does if it runs out of uniques to place somehow 20:14:02 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:14 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:14:16 <PleasingFungus> Bloaxor: how many times have you encountered the first room pan lord? 20:14:21 <PleasingFungus> I am extremely curious 20:14:38 <Bloaxor> pretty sure it's over three times now 20:14:55 <Bloaxor> although at least one of them wasn't the first room (more like the third or something) 20:15:02 <PleasingFungus> that's a different thing! 20:15:09 <PleasingFungus> still pretty brutal ofc 20:15:12 <rchandra> !lg * zigsprint ckiller=pandemonium_lord xl<5 20:15:12 <Sequell> 74. Apol the Slasher (L2 FoFi of Makhleb), slain by Skofomif the pandemonium lord in Sprint (Sprint V: "Ziggurat Sprint") on 2014-07-29 00:42:58, with 6 points after 72 turns and 0:01:30. 20:15:24 <PleasingFungus> !lg * zigsprint lx<5 20:15:24 <Sequell> Unknown field: lx 20:15:28 <PleasingFungus> !lg * zigsprint xl<5 20:15:29 <Sequell> 11038. SomeFlowers the Digger (L2 DEEE of Vehumet), mangled by a profane servitor (a +3 whip) in Sprint (Sprint V: "Ziggurat Sprint") on 2014-08-01 00:56:42, with 23 points after 121 turns and 0:01:52. 20:15:30 <Bloaxor> !lg Bloax zigsprint xl<5 s=ckiller 20:15:31 <Sequell> 57 games for Bloax (zigsprint xl<5): 16x quitting, 4x a deep elf conjurer, 3x a draconian, 3x a deep dwarf, 3x a jumping spider, 2x a starcursed mass, 2x an orc wizard, a soul eater, a pandemonium lord, a deep elf annihilator, a two-headed ogre, a vault warden, an air elemental, an ogre, a water moccasin, a shapeshifter, an orc priest, a guardian mummy, an iguana, a merfolk, a sheep, a polar bear,... 20:15:39 <PleasingFungus> hi pan lord 20:16:01 <Bloaxor> !lg Bloax zigsprint ckiller=pandemonium_lord 20:16:01 <Sequell> 12. Bloax the Covered (L1 DDFi of Dithmengos), slain by Obutuble the pandemonium lord in Sprint (Sprint V: "Ziggurat Sprint") on 2014-01-27 00:43:07, with 6 points after 106 turns and 0:01:42. 20:16:10 <Bloaxor> rip in rip brave DD 20:16:12 <Bloaxor> almost got him 20:16:15 <PleasingFungus> anyway there is a 0.23% chance of any given enemy in the first 5 rooms being a pan lord 20:17:12 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: hm, does "Remove Davy Jones' Locker" fix #8075 ? 20:17:19 <PleasingFungus> !bug 8075 20:17:19 <Sequell> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8075 20:17:28 <PleasingFungus> oh 20:17:30 <PleasingFungus> it should 20:17:38 <PleasingFungus> I'd need to test but iirc that bug report was the original inspiration 20:18:04 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:18:05 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:18:25 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:18:31 <PleasingFungus> that's a 4% chance of seeing at least one pan lord in the first 5 rooms (0.56% of seeing one in the first room) 20:18:37 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 20:18:48 <PleasingFungus> possibly that chance is overly high 20:19:05 <Bloaxor> considering that panlords are extended game material 20:19:25 <Bloaxor> and that in the first rooms you are probably around xl9 or so 20:19:35 <Bloaxor> ?maybe it should be more like 0%? 20:19:43 <PleasingFungus> %git 6933cff4 20:19:43 <Cheibriados> 07evilmike02 * 0.11-a0-562-g6933cff: Changes to zigsprint. (st) 10(2 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 114+ 100-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6933cff4f19b 20:20:22 <PleasingFungus> hahaha it used to be a 15% chance 20:20:29 <PleasingFungus> (in the first 5 rooms) 20:20:33 -!- eb_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:21:48 <|amethyst> Hm 20:22:11 <Lasty> Would anyone mind if I change the spell_desc struct to include a "rod" field? 20:22:23 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: tested; 8075 does seem to be fixed 20:22:34 <|amethyst> Lasty: with what meaning? 20:22:35 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:16 <Lasty> |amethyst: it would allow you to determine whether a spell is a rod spell or not 20:23:40 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:53 <Lasty> Since the spells on rods are unique to rods 20:24:19 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:37 <|amethyst> I don't know that I'd want to force that to be the case 20:24:46 <Lasty> hmm 20:24:49 <|amethyst> even if we want to avoid duplication between books and rods, there are still monsters 20:25:09 <Lasty> So, can I run the issue by you and get your opinion about the best solution? 20:25:22 <|amethyst> !source _append_books 20:25:23 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/command.cc;hb=HEAD#l1050 20:25:26 <|amethyst> oh 20:25:27 <|amethyst> actually 20:25:36 <|amethyst> !source _is_rod_spell 20:25:36 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/command.cc;hb=HEAD#l1022 20:25:42 <Lasty> aha! 20:25:50 <|amethyst> externalise that :) 20:25:52 -!- allbefore1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:57 <Lasty> niiice. 20:25:57 <Lasty> Thanks 20:26:05 <Lasty> It looks like it calls anything not in a book a rod spell 20:26:20 <Lasty> I guess that'll work, since this function is never called on mosnter spells 20:26:23 <|amethyst> ? 20:26:25 <rchandra> fr rod of major healing 20:26:30 <|amethyst> It checks the rods 20:26:35 <|amethyst> which_spell_in_book(i + NUM_FIXED_BOOKS, j) 20:27:11 <Lasty> oh, I'm reading the wrong function -- I was reading _is_book_spell :p 20:27:20 <Lasty> right below it 20:27:22 <|amethyst> what is this function? 20:27:34 <Lasty> nm, I'm just not paying enough attention 20:27:47 <|amethyst> the one you're writing I mean 20:28:12 <|amethyst> because we already pass around a 'rod' flag to several functions when casting spells 20:28:16 <|amethyst> to determine which skills to use 20:28:58 <rchandra> |amethyst: Ru doesn't let you evoke rods if the rod spell is of a (hidden) school you've sacrificed 20:29:17 <|amethyst> where is this check? 20:31:16 <|amethyst> ah, I see 20:31:23 <|amethyst> it's buried more deeply than we pass that flag 20:32:41 <Lasty> |amethyst: I'm not writing a new function, I'm fixing a bug in cannot_use_spell_school 20:33:02 <Lasty> Yeah, my first attempt was to pass in params, but it was silly 20:33:18 <|amethyst> there's also a problem with tome of destruction I think 20:33:37 <|amethyst> which is harder because it passes real book spell enums in to your_spells 20:33:56 <Lasty> Oh, true 20:34:03 <Lasty> I didn't think about that when I was looking at the tome 20:34:29 <|amethyst> I would say to give your_spells a flag for "evoked" and pass that in to _spellcasting_aborted and spell_is_uncastable 20:34:48 <Lasty> Dang, so I will need to pass params 20:35:07 <|amethyst> Or abstract this stuff into a class :) 20:35:20 <|amethyst> no idea what a good design for that would look like though 20:35:25 <|amethyst> haven't given it much thought 20:36:40 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 20:36:52 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:37:03 <Lasty> your_spells -> _spellcasting_aborted -> spell_is_uncastable -> you_cannot_memorise 20:37:09 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:11 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:37:22 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:25 <Cryp71c> Evening 20:37:28 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:38:00 <Grunt> Cryp71c_: who are you again? 20:38:01 <Grunt> <_< 20:38:02 <Lasty> allow_fail is used more or less the same as "evoked" 20:38:07 <Cryp71c> Grunt, :P 20:38:17 <Cryp71c> ??Cryp71c 20:38:17 <Sequell> cryp71c[1/3]: according to {BirdoPrey}, is an obsessive DS player. (note, it doesn't mean he's actually GOOD at DS) :D 20:38:28 <Grunt> 1learn edit Cryp71c[1] s/DS/Ds/ 20:38:32 <Cryp71c> Grunt, my learndb entries havn't been deleted...so I must be SOMEONE! 20:38:35 <rchandra> nintendo DS ? 20:38:37 <eb_> RIP DS 20:38:40 <Lasty> |amethyst: should I just assume "allow_fail" means "evoked" in your_spells, or should I make it explicit by having a second "evoked" param? 20:38:40 <Cryp71c> eb_, ? 20:39:03 <Cryp71c> !learn edit Cryp71c[1] s/DS/Ds/ 20:39:03 <Sequell> cryp71c[1/3]: according to {BirdoPrey}, is an obsessive Ds player. (note, it doesn't mean he's actually GOOD at DS) :D 20:39:08 <eb_> DS -> Ds 20:39:14 <Grunt> !learn edit Cryp71c[1] s/DS/Ds/ 20:39:14 <Sequell> No change! 20:39:18 <Cryp71c> Grunt, muwahahaha 20:39:24 <Grunt> gasp 20:39:46 <PleasingFungus> it's case-insensitive by default 20:39:59 <Cryp71c> There's a fungusamongus 20:40:05 <Grunt> does that 20:40:06 <Grunt> please you 20:40:07 <Grunt> ??? 20:40:50 <Cryp71c> Sigh, this technical interview (in a few weeks) has me stressing. 20:40:50 <Cryp71c> Gah! 20:42:01 <|amethyst> Lasty: no, because it's also used for things like smiting and wizmode casting 20:42:14 <Lasty> k 20:42:29 <|amethyst> Lasty: (fortunately smiting is SPTYP_NONE so you don't have to worry about that one) 20:42:44 <|amethyst> also xom 20:42:57 <Grunt> SPTYP_XOM 20:42:58 <Grunt> imo 20:43:55 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45:04 -!- eb_ has quit [] 20:45:09 -!- Ankalagon has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:45:24 -!- eb_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:33 <Cryp71c> Professionally speaking, you guys have any advice on how you identified which area of programming you wanted to focus on? 20:54:58 -!- johnny0_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:25 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:48 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 20:56:37 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:56:41 <ais523_> Cryp71c: I still haven't settled down into any particular area 20:57:00 <ais523_> although I find that it helps to look at what sort of thing your hobby projects are 20:57:22 <ais523_> like, I'm more heavily into algorithm design than many programmers are, and looking at my hobby projects indicates that 20:58:07 <geekosaur> sometimes 20:58:26 <Cryp71c> hrm, i guess a major issue is that - for example - I've never done any algorithm design, so I'm not sure I can identify for or against it. It seems interesting, though, so I don't think I can write it off as unimportant or uninteresting. 20:58:28 -!- rast has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517]] 20:58:36 <geekosaur> that would backfire kinda badly for me; I took up Haskell programming in part to fix my weakness in algorithms 20:59:02 <geekosaur> (xmonad is one of my hobby projects, if you will) 20:59:05 <ais523_> I guess what you can do is just try and see how it goes, although it works better if you have a project that would need it 20:59:18 -!- johnny0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:19 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:20 -!- ]th_r[ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:31 -!- Surr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:02 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2381-g28278e7: Revert "Don't autopickup arrows for transmuters (SamB)" (minmay) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 6+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=28278e768f73 21:01:57 -!- Kalir has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:59 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:00 -!- ruwin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:42 <Cryp71c> ais523_, when you say algorithm design; how much work is there really in that? I hadn't ever thought there were *that* many common problems for which asymptotically optimal algorithms had not yet already been identified and implemented. 21:02:47 <rchandra> good revert, neil :) 21:02:59 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:38 -!- Surr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:43 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: nobody's actual problems are common, really :) 21:03:53 <geekosaur> ^ 21:04:03 <Grunt> common problems... aren't? 21:04:04 <Grunt> <_< 21:04:14 <rchandra> it's the devil in the details 21:04:15 <SamB> |amethyst: what prompted this? did those autopickups get less dumb? 21:04:18 <geekosaur> sure you can find implementations of various algorithms in libraries, but when you get into the real world you often find that none of the canned solutions quite does what you need 21:04:22 <|amethyst> SamB: no weight limit 21:04:31 <SamB> ah 21:04:43 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, no weight limit? 21:04:50 <rchandra> also spider form losing swiftness makes S2S more important 21:04:56 <rchandra> good to have the player reminded a bit 21:05:21 <|amethyst> and minmay pointed out... essentially what rchandra said 21:05:34 <Lasty> If sac stealth is worth 20 piety and sac hand is worth 70, where would you put sacrifice evocations? I'm thinking around 45-55? 21:05:40 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, am I turning a blind eye or do some fields of programming not use algorithms that much (I've been in web-application development since I've gotten out of college) 21:05:44 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:06:09 <geekosaur> web apps are somewhat infamous for solving the problem by throwing more hardware at it 21:06:18 <geekosaur> (often virtual hardware i.e. the cloud) 21:06:40 <rchandra> Lasty: how is Arcana? losing evo is probably like losing good schools 21:06:43 <|amethyst> let Oracle or the postgres folks do your optimisation for you :) 21:06:44 -!- johnny0_ is now known as johnny0 21:06:49 <geekosaur> there's precious little actual thought about how to best solve problems. case in point: mongodb 21:06:55 <Lasty> rchandra: 25 per arcana sacrifice 21:07:09 <Lasty> (it can be taken up to twice) 21:07:14 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, mssql, we've just got them started on hardcore database optimizations, which is where our biggest resource drain is at anyways :P 21:07:19 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 21:07:22 <rchandra> 50 seems reasonable, maybe 40 ? 21:07:36 <Lasty> Split the difference and go 45? 21:07:57 <geekosaur> so far, the web folks can get away with that kind of thing. lots of other areas where throwing more hardware at it runs quickly into brick walls; only a good knowledge of how to best use what resources you can afford will help you 21:08:35 <|amethyst> I have a colleague who regularly runs out of RAM on a 256 GiB machine 21:08:50 <|amethyst> genome assembly is hard :) 21:08:58 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:09:02 <Grunt> wow 21:09:04 <geekosaur> yep 21:09:09 <|amethyst> and these are just fungal genomes, maybe 30 megabases 21:09:23 <|amethyst> 100 Mbase at the top end of what we work on 21:09:39 <nrook> I can't help but think there are very few problems that actually require 256 GiB and can't be parallelized 21:10:08 <|amethyst> nrook: parts can be parallelised but you essentially want an all-versus-all match 21:10:14 <SamB> nrook: doesn't parallelization make you need MORE memory? 21:10:19 <geekosaur> there are plenty, actually. we are not as good as parallelization as some would like to believe 21:10:20 <|amethyst> so it's nowhere near embarassingly parallel 21:10:26 <|amethyst> SamB: but less per machine 21:10:35 <Cryp71c> SamB, afaik, its less efficient in total memory usage, but you can distribute the load across...yea, many machines. 21:10:42 <SamB> Cryp71c: sure 21:10:43 <nrook> it's easier to get many cheap machines than one super duper machine 21:10:46 <geekosaur> and lots of problems where parallelization doesn't help much, as |amethyst noted 21:11:04 <Cryp71c> case in point the cluster of PS2's from a couple years ago.... 21:11:22 <geekosaur> nrook: sometimes the merging problem after parallelizing amounts to the original problem only worse 21:11:24 <SamB> Cryp71c: not PS3s? 21:11:36 <geekosaur> parallelization is not a cure all, or appropriate for every problem 21:11:49 <Cryp71c> SamB, hehe, pre-PS3 :P but they were still dirt cheap. Maybe a year or less before the PS3 was released. 21:11:52 <Grunt> !send geekosaur a panacea 21:11:52 <Sequell> Sending a panacea to geekosaur. 21:11:53 <Grunt> <_< 21:12:00 <Lasty> three new patches pushed to lastys-crawl/iashol 21:12:01 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 21:12:07 * Grunt pushes Lasty. 21:12:15 <SamB> I think it might have been xboxes once 21:12:25 <nrook> once you get to a certain demand for resources, though, it's your only option 21:12:52 <geekosaur> there have been lots of clusters of those kinds of things, yes. and apple's funded megaclusters of mac minis 21:12:59 <nrook> so you better hope your problem is parallelizable, because if you give up on that it's intractable instead 21:12:59 * Lasty pushes Grunt back by virtue of Newton's third law of motion 21:13:02 <Grunt> megamini! 21:13:38 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, any hope for quantum computing theoretically providing some intrinsic solution? 21:13:41 <|amethyst> geekosaur: we had an xgrid on campus several years ago, maybe it's still around 21:13:49 <geekosaur> not always intractable, no. this is where knowing your tools can help you instead of just hoping you can mapreduce your way out of a paper bag 21:14:12 <geekosaur> and algorithms are a rather big chunk of your toolbox 21:14:31 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: maybe for some problems but we're nowhere near having usable quantum computers (D-Wave isn't a quantum computer in that sense, if it even works) 21:14:48 <|amethyst> and it doesn't solve everything by any means 21:15:58 <|amethyst> In the case of sequence assembly, it's a tradeoff between the cost of the sequencing itself and the cost of computing 21:16:19 <|amethyst> the longer your reads, the less work it is to assemble them 21:16:46 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:21 <|amethyst> but the cheap sequencing technologies produce short reads... within each technology family they get longer and longer as it improves, but each new technology has been giving shorter reads 21:17:35 <|amethyst> compared to the previous, more mature, platform 21:18:12 <nrook> genomics isn't my wheelhouse, so I'll bow out here ("well my crud apps are easily parallelizable, so clearly") 21:18:28 <|amethyst> Plenty of the stuff I do is highly parallelisable 21:18:30 <|amethyst> most of it in fact 21:18:30 <nrook> but I do think we're going to see more and more use of parallelism in computing as time goes on 21:18:38 <|amethyst> it's just that assembly isn't one of them 21:18:55 <nrook> if only because things will move to ~the cloud~ and it's harder to get a big honkin machine on ~the cloud~ 21:19:02 <|amethyst> gene prediction, for example, embarassingly parallel 21:19:12 <geekosaur> oh, we do and we are, als improvements in what can be parallelized and how we do it. but there's always going to be stuff that you can't really parallelize 21:19:15 <|amethyst> you divide up the genome into chunks and run your HMM or whatever on each chunk 21:19:57 <|amethyst> Even for parallelisable stuff 21:20:09 <|amethyst> if you can improve the algorithm to require half as many CPUs 21:20:15 <|amethyst> then of course you want to do that 21:20:31 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:38 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, do you know the rough order of efficiency for the algorithms that do the genome work you're referring to? 21:21:08 <nrook> yep, and if you can figure out a way to parallelize a problem that you didn't know how to solve that way before, that's also good 21:21:46 -!- Lasty has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:47 -!- rockygargoyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:10 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:22:11 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:23:24 -!- MrPeeps has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:24:02 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 21:25:46 -!- Lumpydoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:27:02 <Cryp71c> Its like my connection died..... 21:27:10 <Grunt> !send Cryp71c silence 21:27:10 <Sequell> Sending silence to Cryp71c. 21:27:11 <Cryp71c> Got suddenly quiet. 21:27:12 <nrook> tragically, your connection is a mapreduce 21:27:18 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: very-short-read assembly with de Bruijn graphs is something like O(N log N) on the size of the graph, but I'm not sure about the size of the graph in terms of the genome size 21:27:22 <nrook> and its bandwidth has been.... reduced to zero!!! 21:27:43 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: the number of vertices is more or less constant, but it's a multigraph so there could be a lot of edges 21:27:52 <PleasingFungus> _The floor slides away as you move onto it!!! 21:27:54 <PleasingFungus> bug report 21:28:04 <nrook> I think crawl could use a mapreduce monster 21:28:06 <PleasingFungus> I blame wheals 21:28:11 <nrook> actually I guess slime creatures are kind of like a mapreduce 21:28:15 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, lol floor mimic? 21:28:30 <Cryp71c> erm...no, not a mimic. 21:28:32 <PleasingFungus> nope 21:28:34 <PleasingFungus> xom 21:28:38 <PleasingFungus> (praise Xom) 21:28:39 <Cryp71c> AH, yeah xom. 21:28:46 <Cryp71c> I've had that happen with stairs, crazy rare. 21:28:57 <Cryp71c> Requires high tension and stair use... 21:29:06 <Cryp71c> Is tension still in existence? 21:29:46 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, not sure about the context of "very-short-read assembly" but...does it have to do with genome size or the type of genome assembly being done? 21:29:57 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: how it was sequenced 21:30:13 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, different types of assembly provide different levels of....detail? 21:30:24 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: they provide different lengths of contiguous sequence 21:30:41 <Cryp71c> ...apparently I'm retarded when it comes to genetic sequencing. 21:30:45 <Cryp71c> Who knew?! 21:31:00 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: a typical read with some of the newer sequencing methods might be 100 bases (a base is 2 bits) 21:31:35 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but your chromosomes are millions (even tens or hundreds of millions) of bases long 21:31:49 <|amethyst> you have to match up the end of one read with the beginning of the next 21:31:50 <|amethyst> etc 21:32:03 <|amethyst> until you get as much of a contiguous sequence as possible 21:32:39 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, is the sequencing precise enough to match them up end to end, or do the algorithms need to overlap a certain amount to ensure that a sub-sequence hasn't been accidentally missed? 21:32:41 <|amethyst> (which usually doesn't work out to a whole chromosome because assembly algorithms can't really handle repeats very well) 21:32:50 <PleasingFungus> the bug was not the shifting :) 21:33:02 <nrook> !!! seems a bit strong 21:33:07 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you have to have overlap 21:33:08 <PleasingFungus> lang=sgrunt 21:33:20 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: because you have no idea whether this read and that read were "adjacent" 21:33:20 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, so what's the bug? 21:33:23 <Grunt> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 21:33:26 <Grunt> s/1// 21:33:27 <Grunt> :( 21:33:30 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: unless they happen to come from two ends of the same DNA fragment 21:33:40 <nrook> fr: in honor of recent comment, add 1s to lang=sgrunt 21:33:41 <PleasingFungus> the floor is not the thing that is sliding away 21:33:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: the problem is that you can't (cheaply) sequence a whole fragment from one end to another 21:33:52 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but only the ends 21:34:14 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but it's so cheap to do that, that you can get 20x or 30x coverage without too much of a problem 21:34:18 <PleasingFungus> ...I have no idea how to test this fix 21:34:25 <Grunt> nrook: rip :( 21:34:27 <PleasingFungus> wait nvm 21:34:37 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:18 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, 20x or 30x coverage? 21:35:57 <PleasingFungus> The stone staircase leading down slides away as you move onto it! 21:36:01 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: meaning you have, on average, sequenced each base of the genome that many times 21:36:01 <PleasingFungus> kind of awkward but I'll take it 21:36:17 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: so with a 30 Mbase genome at 20x coverage, you have 600 Mbase of reads 21:36:17 <nrook> is "leading down" really necessary 21:36:28 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, why sequence the same base more than once? 21:36:32 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: maybe six million reads of 100 bases each 21:36:41 <PleasingFungus> nrook: probably not 21:37:24 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: the increase the chances of having overlaps in the positions you want, and to lessen the impact of incorrect sequence 21:37:31 <rchandra> speaking of staircases, is there a way to change the glyph for the < on d:1 but not other stairs? 21:37:41 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: s/the increase/to increase/ 21:38:05 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, oh so when you sequence a series of bases and then do another sequencing, you're not necessarily sure where the 2nd sequencing is in relation to the 1st sequencing? 21:38:11 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: right 21:38:36 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you can get individual pairs of sequences lined up with a gap between 21:38:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: if you sequence both ends of a fragment and you know the fragment's size 21:38:52 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, this whole process seems to be a lot simpler if you could have some stronger certainty in that regard? 21:39:05 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but that doesn't tell you where they are in relation to other fragments 21:39:19 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: Yeah, it would be nice 21:39:45 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, "nice" or "a solution to this specific problem" ? 21:39:50 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: nice in general 21:40:04 <nrook> woot woot, finished with my design doc: https://docs.google.com/a/nrook.com/document/d/1AsDqRLSFBbY-SOlHV9AEYPHrHL06dDa0AHmIDsFulnA/edit# 21:40:07 <Cryp71c> So if that were the case, what other sequencing issues would remain? 21:40:12 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: if you could sequence an entire chromosome straight through, assembly would barely be necessary 21:40:16 <nrook> I want to have each server have a list of games from other servers 21:40:22 <nrook> *webserver 21:40:25 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, ahhhhhh...assembly 21:40:39 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but people don't know how to do that, or at least don't know how to do that for cheap 21:40:42 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, you're sequencing fragments and then ASSEMBLING them into the complete chromosome 21:40:46 <|amethyst> yes 21:40:50 <nrook> it's probably not a very interesting design doc but it's good to write things down 21:41:02 <|amethyst> it's like you took a book and threw it into a cross-cut shredder 21:41:13 <|amethyst> if you have enough copies of the book, you can maybe reconstruct it 21:41:21 <nrook> I'm surprised that problem isn't amenable to parallelization honestly 21:41:25 <nrook> although I believe you that it isn't 21:41:50 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2382-g90d7c0d: Clarify spellbook theming 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=90d7c0d7490b 21:41:50 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2383-ge3e4896: Decorpsify mana vipers 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e3e48960dc4a 21:41:50 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2384-gc940287: Add a few unrands to zigsprint 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c940287ee371 21:41:50 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2385-g6a83109: Improve stair-sliding messages 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6a83109defc1 21:42:11 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: you monster, how dare you defile corpses like that 21:42:12 <Grunt> <_< 21:42:20 <|amethyst> nrook: it is parallelisable, but there's a lot of overhead to doing so 21:42:26 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, are you able to sequence (and assemble) a fragment of a chromosome or do you have to work on the scope of an entire chromosome? 21:42:29 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: ooh, firestarter 21:42:34 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:43:04 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: yeah, you can do specific regions if you know some of the flanking sequence and make restriction enzymes to cut out just that part 21:43:15 <|amethyst> nrook: the problem is that you really want all the data on each processor 21:43:21 <|amethyst> nrook: and "all the data" is huge 21:43:51 <|amethyst> nrook: otherwise, you could miss the case where the reads you want to overlap are in both chunks 21:44:03 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, also, I'm crazy surprised that even with 100x reads of the same bases, unless the chromosomal fragment is rather small, that you would have enough confidence in your overlaps to be certain that your sequencing is correct. 21:44:34 <|amethyst> nrook: so if you have a supercomputer with 256 GiB per node, you could speed up work on the genomes we're dealing with 21:44:34 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, it seems akin to me to having a jigsaw puzzle with - say - a million pieces...there are so many combinations that you're bound to get more than just a few pieces in the wrong place, even though they "fit" 21:45:11 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: Yes, which is one of the reasons you don't end up assembling things into entire chromosomes 21:45:22 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: repeated sequences are particularly problematic 21:45:48 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: so you are conservative and say "if it could be glued together multiple ways, don't do it" 21:45:49 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, ahhh...right, repeated sequences. I just didn't know how small a fragment was typical when doing sequencing. 21:46:14 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: say you have two 100 base reads that you line up according to 20 bases on the end of each 21:46:32 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:41 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:46:57 <|amethyst> one base is two bits, so the chances of that happening by accident are 1/2**40 21:47:04 <|amethyst> or one in a trillion 21:47:09 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 21:47:09 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 21:47:15 <nrook> a large number of small objects that have to be pieced together... just feels parallelizable to me, haha 21:47:19 <|amethyst> *unless* the sequence actually does repeat 21:47:29 <nrook> but I assume if there was an obvious algo you would have thought of it by now =p 21:48:16 <|amethyst> nrook: I was perhaps overstating it when I said it's hard to parallelise... but given that you only have, say 20x coverage 21:48:38 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, in that circumstance, you're certain that the fragment is 200 bases in total length? If you don't know that to be the length (or pretty close) how can you know there isn't a gap in the middle ? 21:49:11 <Cryp71c> Or does that play back to statistical unlikliness? 21:49:15 <|amethyst> nrook: if you divide the input into more than 20 pieces, some alignments will be missed because the same machine didn't get both overlapping reads 21:50:13 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you know the approximate size of the fragments from things like molecular weight 21:50:25 <nrook> |amethyst: are you actually attempting to connect every segment with every other segment? 21:50:42 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: and you know the length of your reads because that's what the sequencer told you 21:51:11 <Cryp71c> nrook, I believe so. I can't imagine a "yeah we got this 100,000 base sequence done...but there's this 2,000 base gap here between this segment of 20,000 and this other segment of 80,000" is probably pretty useless. 21:51:21 <Cryp71c> I can't imagine a .... is very useful 21:51:22 <Cryp71c> whoops. 21:51:25 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: actually, it's not useless 21:51:30 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: that's how things end up 21:51:45 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you have contigs, where you know the entire sequence from one end to another 21:52:20 <|amethyst> the stuff I work on, the best contigs are a few hundred kilobases, and they go all the way down to 2k or 500 bases before you start throwing them out 21:52:46 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, so what do you do at that point? re-run that same fragment and hope you can reduce the gap size...or perhaps reduce the fragment size so that you're more likely to get sequences from the gap in a future sequencing? 21:52:50 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: and because of the paired-end stuff, you often know "these two contigs are adjacent" without knowing the sequence between 21:54:04 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: yeah, you might try to extract just that fragment with some flanking sequence (since you now know the flanking sequence you can cut it out pretty precisely) 21:54:17 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, how can you be certain of that? perhaps one contig butts-up against one edge of the fragment and the other butts-up against the other edge (leaving no other possibility than for them to be adjacent, save for the gap in between)? 21:54:52 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: it's because you had biggish fragments to start with, and sequenced those from both ends 21:55:01 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: and you keep track of which ends came from the same fragment 21:55:04 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, so each successive sequence (providing you can get a pretty good contig) sets you up for reducing duplicate work (accidentailly re-sequencing the contig you've already got) in the future? 21:55:29 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: so if this end assembles into contig 1 and the other end assembles into contig 2, you can be pretty sure that the gap between them is no bigger than the size of the fragment 21:55:50 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, the size of the fragment minus the size of contig 1 minus the size of contig 2? 21:55:53 <Cryp71c> you mean? 21:56:11 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: not the size of the whole contig (which is likely to be much bigger than one fragment) 21:56:21 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but how far into that contig your read was 21:56:37 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, gotcha, because contig 1 and contig 2 probably didn't come from this sequencing.... 21:56:58 <Cryp71c> ? 21:57:15 -!- Akitten_Homura has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:22 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, also, that 20-pair overlap, is that kind of the "standard" overlap you require when doing assembly or does it vary? 21:57:43 <|amethyst> it's like you have two jigsaw pieces connected with a stick 21:57:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:17 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:29 <|amethyst> you can build the puzzle around both pieces, and you might not fill in the gap between them completely, but the fact that the stick is there tells you where they were in relation to each other before you cut up the board 21:58:41 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: 20 was an example, it depends on the assembler 21:59:05 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, when you say "the assembler" you're referring to different programs which use different algorithms, or? 21:59:10 <|amethyst> yes 21:59:32 <|amethyst> with names like Newbler, Velvet, MaSuRCA, ... 21:59:41 <Cryp71c> And when you were referring to "very short read" earlier, that is the number of bases that is read on each pass of the sequencer? 21:59:49 <|amethyst> not on each pass 22:00:20 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:00:20 -!- Moredread has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:00:23 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:25 <|amethyst> it's how far into each fragment you can read 22:00:31 <|amethyst> you're dealing with many millions of fragments at once 22:00:51 <|amethyst> sequencers themselves are highly parallel, because chemistry is easy to parallelise :) 22:01:24 <Cryp71c> right right right...so, lots of fragments. Are all the fragments roughly the same size? exactly the same size? 22:01:36 <|amethyst> no, quite different 22:01:43 <|amethyst> but the reads are roughly the same size 22:01:54 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:02 <|amethyst> fragmentation is really just a way to "expose" more of the DNA to sequencing 22:02:19 <|amethyst> because the current technologies only let you sequence the end of a strand of DNA 22:02:34 <|amethyst> so you chop up your chromosome so there's more "end" 22:02:59 <|amethyst> chop it up into overlapping parts 22:03:01 <Cryp71c> So if you're not able to do "very long reads" due to the cost of that, then the best approach is to do as many reads that are long enough that you're not thrashing (because of uncertainty in two sequences overlapping) but not so long that you don't get as many separate reads as you want. 22:03:06 <|amethyst> because you have millions of copies of the chromosome 22:04:02 <Cryp71c> Am I somewhat on target with that conclusion, or off-base? 22:04:09 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: in general, longer reads are better 22:04:37 <Cryp71c> Well...right, but possibly prohibitively expensive. And that is the sequencer which determines the length of the read? 22:04:59 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: yes, the sequencer and more generally the technology it uses 22:05:23 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, is the bulk of the cost of sequencing in the equipment or the cost per-sequencing (or split fairly evenly)? 22:06:27 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:35 <|amethyst> That also depends quite a bit. A machine might run around $100,000 22:07:03 <|amethyst> sequencing cost, depending on platform, could run anywhere from 50 cents per megabase to dozens of dollars 22:08:08 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:08:15 <|amethyst> or, for Sanger sequencing (all we had from the 70s to the 90s: gives really long reads, 400-900 bases), a few thousand dollars per megabase 22:08:44 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, when you say megabase, I understand that that's probably a "business unit" but what does it equate to, practically speaking? length_of_read * number_of_fragments_read ? 22:09:06 <|amethyst> yeah, length of read * number of reads == genome size * coverage 22:09:33 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, so a very short read is 100bases and a very long read is 400-900 bases? 22:09:47 <Cryp71c> Or is a "very long read" using some other modern sequencing technique much longer? 22:09:58 <|amethyst> I think "very short" goes down to 50ish 22:10:15 <|amethyst> below that it's probably not very useful 22:10:33 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, you said earlier you're sequencing fungus? 22:10:38 <|amethyst> Yeah 22:10:39 <|amethyst> well 22:10:44 <|amethyst> I don't do the sequencing 22:10:53 <|amethyst> that's for the biologists and lab techs 22:11:12 <|amethyst> I work with bits and bytes only :) 22:11:15 <Cryp71c> right...you just get the sequenced fragment results and must assemble them. 22:11:21 <|amethyst> I don't even do that 22:11:29 <|amethyst> the colleague I mentioned handles the assembly 22:11:34 <Cryp71c> well, not even sequenced fragments. the edges of sequenced fragments 22:11:39 <|amethyst> I do things like gene finding on the assembled contigs 22:12:00 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, gene finding == finding the overlap? 22:12:24 <|amethyst> no, by the time I get it all that stuff has been worked out as well as it's going to be for now 22:12:45 <|amethyst> I'm looking (or using software to look) through the sequence for things that look like genes 22:12:51 <|amethyst> since most of a genome is not genes 22:13:18 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, just to clarify, its been a long time since I took biology. A gene is a series of bases which result in some specific expression? 22:13:33 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13:41 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: that's a good enough definition for me :) 22:14:06 <|amethyst> I'm sure the biologists would find some fault in that 22:14:09 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, I don't like having a fundamental misunderstanding, what would you clarify in my definition to be completely accurate, to the best of your knowledge? 22:14:23 <Cryp71c> ah, gotcha. 22:15:29 <geekosaur> technically a gene encodes a protein. practically, I expect that to change a bit because there's a lot of stuff that isn't actually genes by that rule, but instead codes for RNA that controls the expression of other genes or the resulting proteins, etc. 22:15:59 <geekosaur> (also technically the genes also code for RNA, of a kind which is transcribed into proteins) 22:16:36 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, so the series of bases which encode a protein have a particular "appearance"? 22:16:43 <geekosaur> also things like promoter regions, which are sort of "start here" marks for transcriptions of particular interest) 22:16:54 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: there are certain statistical properties 22:17:06 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: hidden markov models are popular for ab initio gene finding 22:17:33 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: but you also use known genes, proteins, and RNA sequences from the same or related organisms 22:17:42 <|amethyst> so that you have some evidence for it 22:19:05 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, sounds like an enormous amount of uncertainty / variability in even the most simple of organisms 22:19:12 <geekosaur> and then there's fun like the discovery that some genes overlap: start your transcription in one place and you get one RNA encoding a protein, start 1 or 2 bases away and you get a different protein or special RNA sequence 22:19:27 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: yes, gene prediction is very dirty 22:19:29 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, you work in this field too? 22:19:39 <geekosaur> no, but I follow it pretty closely for my own reasons 22:19:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: so you end up with gene annotations in GenBank that say "putative this" or "hypothetical that" 22:19:57 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, what is the state of microbiology? Is there anyway to verify the predictions through test or ? 22:20:18 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, GenBank = collaborative tool for genetics research? 22:21:32 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: sure, you could for example knock out (disable or excise) the gene and see what happens... but that's outside my expertise 22:22:19 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: genbank is the open access sequence database run by the US government (NCBI, part of NIH) 22:23:04 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: generally, as a condition for obtaining a federal grant to do sequencing, gene finding, etc, you agree to deposit your sequences and annotations into genbank 22:23:06 <geekosaur> knockout works for some things, but some genes are so important that knocking them out results in non-viable embryos. there's newer stuff like editing in a thing that responds to an external influence of some kind so you can activate or inactivate on the fly in living creatures 22:23:44 <geekosaur> but even so, determining exactly what something does can prove difficult, because some of them have many different knock-on effects and much of it happens faster than current tech can follow 22:24:15 -!- Cryp71c__ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:15 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:24:42 <Cryp71c__> Gah! my work computers' script ghosted my nick and re-authed. Must've left my IRC client running there. 22:25:02 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:25:04 -!- Cryp71c__ is now known as Cryp71c 22:25:13 <Cryp71c> there we go 22:26:27 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, regarding sequencing a species for which no sequencing has ever been done; how do you fragment the chromosome without flanking or knowing its contents? Is it just random or do you have to work from the outside-edges inwards? 22:26:55 <geekosaur> (so, for example, there is a cancer-fighting gene called p53 that was thought to be pretty well understood... and someone discovered a new interaction published earlier this week) 22:27:23 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you break it up into chunks more or less randomly 22:27:38 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, human gene or ? 22:27:39 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: either by shearing (mechanically) or with restriction enzymes 22:27:45 <geekosaur> it's in most mammals, including humans 22:28:17 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, knockout / knock-on? 22:28:26 <geekosaur> it's one of the first genes that gets knocked out by 90%+ of cancers, because it's one of the most active and important cancer fighters 22:28:55 <geekosaur> those are two different things. knockout = you delete the gene or prevent it from being transcribed 22:29:00 <|amethyst> "knockout" is a technical term 22:29:08 <geekosaur> knock-on is a cascade of effects from a single action 22:29:10 <Cryp71c> right...I was able to get that from context 22:29:21 <Cryp71c> yeah the knock-on is where I'm lost atm. 22:29:32 <|amethyst> "knock-on" is just the usual English slang 22:29:43 <geekosaur> so, a protein may control 3 other proteins but those three then control a couple hundred more... or it may prevent transcription of a dozen more genes 22:29:46 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:55 <|amethyst> (Chiefly BrE) 22:29:58 <geekosaur> cells are horribly complicated 22:30:46 <|amethyst> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/knock-on_effect 22:30:52 <geekosaur> it's not unusual for a gene involved with embryogenesis to control a couple hundred other genes 22:31:12 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, is there a typical length of genes, in bases? 22:31:17 <Cryp71c> Or at least, in the work you're doing? 22:32:18 <geekosaur> (embryogensis = growing a single egg cell into an embryo with well defined parts e.g. brain, legs, heart, etc.) 22:32:51 <geekosaur> (you may not see the actual parts yet but the cells that will make them are all in the places they should be and ready to go) 22:33:16 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:33:23 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 22:33:24 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 22:34:42 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: a few hundred to several thousand bases usually 22:37:04 <|amethyst> in vertebrates more like tens of thousands 22:37:15 <|amethyst> and a few genes are megabases long 22:37:57 <|amethyst> in bacteria probably closer to a thousand (and genes work very differently in bacteria) 22:38:08 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, re: bacteria, how so? 22:38:28 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:39:44 <|amethyst> In both prokaryotes (bacteria and archaea) and eukaryotes (everything else, including fungi and us) the cellular machinery transcribes DNA into RNA, then translates (some) RNA into proteins 22:40:16 <|amethyst> But in eukaryotes, there is an intermediate step ("splicing") where chunks of the RNA ("introns") are excises 22:40:21 <|amethyst> excised 22:42:00 <|amethyst> and variations in how the splicing happens can mean you get different RNA sequences for the same DNA 22:42:04 <|amethyst> "splice variants" 22:42:32 <|amethyst> so mapping RNA sequences onto a genomic DNA sequence is a lot easier with prokaryotes 22:44:07 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:15 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:38 -!- Dingus has quit [*.net *.split] 22:47:42 -!- Surr has quit [*.net *.split] 22:47:44 -!- quinso has quit [*.net *.split] 22:47:46 -!- yernab has quit [*.net *.split] 22:47:46 -!- rockygargoyle has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:55 <|amethyst> other neat things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposable_element http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus 22:50:07 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:35 <|amethyst> A substantial chunk of our genome consists of dead viruses from millions of years ago 22:50:51 <|amethyst> sometimes not so dead 22:50:55 <geekosaur> ...at least some percentage of which have been recycled into useful stuff 22:51:40 <geekosaur> last I saw there was some evidence that a fair amount of our brain development over chimpanzees comes largely from a genetic sequence recycled from one of those viruses and repurposed 22:51:43 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, but others could be knocked out with no significant effect? 22:51:48 <|amethyst> It's funny, we do gene predictions on these fungi (working with ~30 species now) and then look for orthologous genes ("the same gene" in different organisms) 22:51:49 <geekosaur> not clear 22:52:03 <geekosaur> scientists are still arguing over how much of the human genome has no function 22:52:14 <geekosaur> we know what maybe 8-10% of it does 22:52:15 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:27 <geekosaur> but they're finding new surprises all the time 22:52:36 <Lightli> !killratio unique=polyphemus * cv=0.15-a 22:52:38 <Sequell> No battles for unique=polyphemus and * (cv=0.15-a). 22:52:47 <Lightli> !killratio polyphemus . cv=0.15-a 22:52:48 <Sequell> polyphemus wins 33.33% of battles against Lightli (cv=0.15-a). 22:52:49 <|amethyst> if you look at the single largest orthologue group (largest number of copies) and compare against known sequences, you find that part of it codes for reverse transcriptase 22:52:49 <Cryp71c> geekosaur, I thought I had read at some point that its all been sequenced? that seems highly unlikely given the process amethyst has been describing. 22:52:53 <geekosaur> so how much is dead and how much have we just not figured out the purpose of yet? nobody knows 22:52:57 <Lightli> !killratio polyphemus * cv=0.15-a 22:53:04 <Sequell> polyphemus wins 4.792% of battles against * (cv=0.15-a). 22:53:04 <geekosaur> that's ... difficult 22:53:20 <geekosaur> what has been sequenced is the stuff known to be genes (that is, give rise to proteins) 22:53:36 <geekosaur> that's like 7-8% of all the DNA 22:54:03 <geekosaur> we know maybe 1% of the rest has functions other than encoding proteins 22:54:20 <geekosaur> we have not the slightest clue what, if anything, almost 90% of our genetic mater is doing 22:54:23 <|amethyst> we have sequenced the rest... we just don't know what most it does 22:54:49 <Cryp71c> But it doesn't follow the patterns of genes...so we're pretty certain they don't give rise to proteins? 22:54:55 <|amethyst> we've thrown billions of dollars at it 22:54:57 <geekosaur> sequencing it is one thing. figuring out what follows from that is much, much harder 22:55:41 <geekosaur> genes are "easy", you read off codons and they mostly map directly to proteins (but see |amethyst's comments about splicing earlier, also it turns out that what we thught were stop codons sometimes aren't) 22:56:00 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:01 <|amethyst> a codon is like a DNA byte 22:56:07 <|amethyst> three bases (6 bits) 22:56:19 <geekosaur> ("stop codon" marks the end of the RNA definition of a protein; codons I mentioned earlier) 22:56:26 <bh> what did I just stumble upon? 22:56:28 <|amethyst> those 64 different codons each codes for a specific amino acid 22:56:31 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:56:46 <geekosaur> bh: discussion of the limits of mapreduce that turned into a discussion of genetics 22:56:53 <|amethyst> bh: I was telling Cryp71c about my job :) 22:56:58 <geekosaur> (originally as an example of something mapreduce is only of limited use for) 22:56:58 <Kramin> ##crawl-dev is now ##crawl-genetics 22:56:58 <bh> |amethyst: can you suggest any reading on information theory and codon bias? 22:57:19 <|amethyst> bh: probably not 22:57:33 <bh> I've never crunched the numbers myself, but I assume that bacteria and viruses have similar codon bias to their hosts 22:57:37 <geekosaur> or maybe we're plotting out the next self-aware sequell :p 22:57:39 <bh> !seen gammafunk 22:57:39 <Sequell> I last saw gammafunk at Sun Jul 27 20:27:32 2014 UTC (4d 7h 30m 7s ago) parting ##crawl, saying 'chanpart'. 22:57:56 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 22:57:58 <|amethyst> bh: by which I mean, not off the top of my head, and you can search wikipedia and google scholar/pubmed as well as I can :) 22:58:12 <|amethyst> bh: Hm 22:58:29 <|amethyst> bh: I suspect it's different between bacteria and eukaryotes 22:58:44 -!- Laraso has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:59:00 <|amethyst> bh: and with viruses it may be based on the ancestral host, not the current one 22:59:08 <|amethyst> bh: but that's just guessing 22:59:15 <bh> depends on genome length 22:59:41 <bh> more lab work than I'm willing to do, but I'd be curious to take a phage, recreate it's genome altering the codon bias and then assessing its fitness 22:59:41 <|amethyst> also depends on speed of reproduction 22:59:58 <bh> complicating things, in really optimized organisms you have overlapping genes 23:00:06 <PleasingFungus> hey, sorry to break into gene-dev, but I have a small question 23:00:11 <geekosaur> heh 23:00:29 <PleasingFungus> what's the relationship between the beam.damage & beam.hit numbers (as set in mon-cast.cc), and the zap values in zap-data.h? 23:00:56 <geekosaur> (and now I'm imagining genomics: the roguelike) 23:01:52 -!- demiskeleton_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:00 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: zaps are only used for players I believe 23:02:35 <PleasingFungus> hm 23:02:37 <PleasingFungus> ok 23:03:36 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:04:01 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: so no relationship whatsoever, which produces complaints sometimes 23:04:21 <bh> crawl went wrong with having a player in the first place 23:04:26 <bh> The player is just a monster. 23:04:47 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:51 <PleasingFungus> just wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to fuck over, idk, targeting code 23:04:52 <|amethyst> at least now they share some interface 23:04:57 <|amethyst> that was not always the case 23:05:16 <bh> well, it's late o'clock here 23:05:22 <bh> did we end up naming 0.15? 23:05:25 <PleasingFungus> hm 23:05:36 <PleasingFungus> "storm of destruction" because qaz & item destruction was destroyed 23:05:38 <PleasingFungus> clearly 23:05:47 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleepytime] 23:05:49 <PleasingFungus> *because qaz & because 23:05:58 <PleasingFungus> bh was also destroyed 23:08:18 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:08:56 <PleasingFungus> it might make sense to shift item gifting from ***** to **** 23:08:58 <PleasingFungus> beogh 23:09:20 <PleasingFungus> I'm not sure it really needs to be as late as *****? and it really confuses people 23:10:35 <|amethyst> Lasty1: err, I see what is almost certainly a typo 23:10:43 <|amethyst> else if (your_spells(spell, power, false) 23:10:43 <|amethyst> - == SPRET_ABORT) 23:10:43 <|amethyst> + == SPRET_ABORT, true) 23:10:56 <|amethyst> I imagine that ", true" should have come after ", false" ? 23:12:36 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:13:03 <PleasingFungus> !tell wheals Any opinions on moving beogh equipment gifting from ***** to ****? 23:13:03 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let wheals know. 23:18:55 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-2329-g8b14510: Ru: Mark additional useless items 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 12+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8b145107201a 23:18:55 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-2330-gf782cfc: Ru: Allow using evoked spells under sac arcana 10(2 hours ago, 5 files, 22+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f782cfc95f1d 23:18:55 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-2331-gd3156c9: Ru: Increase Sac Artifice piety by 28% 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d3156c93cd66 23:18:55 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-2332-g5935cb8: Don't make rod spells free. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5935cb8d02b7 23:20:23 <Cheibriados> Unknown spell name: '"lightning' in '"lightning' 23:20:23 <PleasingFungus> %??deep elf sorcerer spells:"lightning bolt" 23:20:30 <Cheibriados> deep elf sorcerer (13e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 52-77 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(112) | XP: 1432 | Sp: b.lightning (3d19) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 23:20:30 <PleasingFungus> %??deep elf sorcerer spells:lightning_bolt 23:20:38 <Cheibriados> deep elf sorcerer (13e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 52-77 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(112) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 1730 | Sp: b.draining (3d21), banishment, haste, sum.demon, hellfire (3d20) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 23:20:38 <PleasingFungus> %??deep elf sorcerer 23:20:42 <PleasingFungus> aight 23:21:22 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:55 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: I'm confused by "Improve stair-sliding messages"... what changed? 23:23:09 <PleasingFungus> %git :/liding 23:23:09 <Cheibriados> 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-2385-g6a83109: Improve stair-sliding messages 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6a83109defc1 23:23:17 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:23:19 <PleasingFungus> instead of being told "the floor slides out from under you!" 23:23:26 <PleasingFungus> you're told "the stairs slide out from under you!" 23:23:37 <|amethyst> oh, I see 23:23:50 <PleasingFungus> possibly I should have left a comment in the code 23:23:53 <|amethyst> the code didn't change, just the order 23:24:07 <PleasingFungus> that's a change.... 23:24:18 <|amethyst> Yeah, I missed that the condition of that if had side effects 23:24:29 <|amethyst> even though the function name makes it quite obvious that it does 23:24:31 <|amethyst> so my bad 23:25:05 <PleasingFungus> well 23:25:10 <PleasingFungus> so did the person who originally wrote this 23:25:15 <|amethyst> heh 23:25:46 <PleasingFungus> !rng bolt_of_acid corrosive_bolt 23:25:46 <Sequell> The RNG chooses: corrosive_bolt. 23:25:49 <PleasingFungus> goodrng 23:26:15 <|amethyst> b.corrosive 23:26:29 <Sizzell> Experimental (iashol) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2332-g5935cb8 23:27:01 -!- phalm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:50 -!- SamB__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:52 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:28:04 -!- BrainTurd has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:29:12 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:31:14 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:32:18 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34:15 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2386-g838f727: Add the new monster spell 'Corrosive Bolt' 10(6 minutes ago, 7 files, 49+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=838f727e50f8 23:34:26 <PleasingFungus> ok. hm. 23:34:26 <PleasingFungus> if I wanted to compile crawl in "0.15 release mode", how would I indicate that? 23:38:31 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:45 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: create a tag for 0.15.0, and be very careful not to push that :) 23:39:11 <PleasingFungus> I'm trying to figure out how I'd go about trunkifying gozag 23:39:14 <|amethyst> the build script (util/gen_ver.pl) use git describe to decide whether it is alpha, beta, or release 23:39:19 <PleasingFungus> I guess I should try to find the old race-only trunk code 23:39:21 <|amethyst> s/pt/pts/ 23:39:40 <|amethyst> what do you mean by 'trunkifying'? Disabling it in trunk? 23:40:44 <PleasingFungus> yes 23:40:46 <PleasingFungus> wait 23:40:48 <PleasingFungus> no 23:40:49 <PleasingFungus> the opposite 23:40:51 <PleasingFungus> making it trunk-only 23:40:54 <|amethyst> err 23:40:55 <|amethyst> yeah 23:41:00 <|amethyst> that's what I meant 23:41:03 <PleasingFungus> rip 23:41:05 <|amethyst> disabling it in release :) 23:41:11 <PleasingFungus> yes. 23:41:20 <|amethyst> if (Version::ReleaseType == VER_ALPHA) 23:41:25 <|amethyst> the question is where to put that :) 23:41:46 <PleasingFungus> several places, I expect 23:42:32 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: is_unavailable_god might be one place to start 23:42:37 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: that might even be enough 23:43:05 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: oh, temple vaults 23:43:24 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: might have to shrink the largest of those 23:45:59 <PleasingFungus> might need to do something about descriptions 23:46:00 <PleasingFungus> and the manual 23:46:35 <|amethyst> hm, not sure how to best handle the manual 23:47:07 <|amethyst> extra descriptions don't hurt, though I guess you'd want to make ?/g not list Gozag 23:47:48 <|amethyst> I guess keep the wiki manual up to date wrt trunk, since that's where syncs happen 23:48:08 <|amethyst> hm 23:48:19 <|amethyst> hold on, I think we have some docs about that 23:49:18 <Cheibriados> ancient lich (16L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 27 | HP: 85-130 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Dam: 2013(drain) | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 7513 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, sum.greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), 04esc:teleport self / b.draining (3d33), slow, invisibility, throw icicle (3d37), crystal spear (3d48) / b.fire (3d37), confuse, haste, b.draining (3d33), sum.greater demon, 04esc:banishment / mystic blast (3d30), b.cold (3d37), invisibility, animate dead, o.destruction (9d20) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 23:49:18 <Lightli> %??ancient lich 23:49:40 <|amethyst> hm, they don't seem to indicate much about what to do when something is disabled for release 23:50:16 <|amethyst> I think I would, to avoid having to revert on the wiki, keep the wiki manual on trunk 23:50:48 <|amethyst> then when 0.15-b1 is tagged, start maintaining the 0.15 manual in the repo (including removing disabled stuff) 23:50:59 <|amethyst> but other people may have better ideas 23:51:30 <|amethyst> because that would make manual updates between -b1 and release a pain 23:51:43 <Lightli> so if gozag isn't going into stable, is there anything left until 0.15 goes into b1? 23:52:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: You should read docs/develop/release.txt if you haven't already 23:52:26 <|amethyst> Lightli: at least an email to C-R-D declaring last call :) 23:53:26 -!- Nerem has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:53:52 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:54:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: Grunt managed the release last time, and before that it was mostly kilobyte 23:54:16 <|amethyst> s/time/time or two/ 23:54:33 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0/20140605174243]] 23:54:58 <PleasingFungus> I want to tweak ranged weapons slightly more (need to do slightly more testing) 23:55:14 <PleasingFungus> that's going to be touching a couple of numbers at most, thuogh 23:55:37 <|amethyst> (also, FR: update those docs) 23:56:02 <|amethyst> tweaking numbers can happen in beta; adding/removing item types should probably not 23:56:25 -!- elmdor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:30 <PleasingFungus> yes 23:56:56 <PleasingFungus> that is the extent of my planned potential changes 23:57:27 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: imo write to crd asking if there's anything else that needs doing (including what you're doing) 23:57:30 <|amethyst> I'm kind of wondering whether to make restart_after_game the default for offline play 23:57:51 <|amethyst> because that's probably not the kind of change to make in feature freeze 23:57:54 <rchandra> I think that was among the first options I changed in my rcfile offline 23:58:06 <PleasingFungus> Grunt: why me!??!? 23:58:17 <PleasingFungus> hm. first I have to moderate this wordpress comment 23:58:22 <|amethyst> (also, it would be nice if you could save and go back to the menu, but maybe that shouldn't be the default even if r_a_g is) 23:58:23 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: because you're actively wondering about the topic? :) 23:58:31 <PleasingFungus> " felid stone form rulez " author: " gay dads raped me, now i'm a fag " 23:58:39 <rchandra> also fr lastminute merge Ru 23:58:45 <PleasingFungus> a valuable sentiment but probably trash. 23:58:54 <PleasingFungus> much though I despise impinging on free speech. 23:59:15 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev