00:01:39 -!- CSDCMS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:49 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:56 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:24 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1939-gf284a85 (34) 00:10:57 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:15:11 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:16:13 Grunt: update 00:16:18 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:18 hellfire doesn't trigger qaz's rf 00:16:32 It doesn't? 00:16:38 Must have gone away with all the refactoring. 00:16:45 I was looking through the code and trying and trying to find where it'd happen 00:17:00 then I decided to test 00:17:04 and, well 00:17:15 I hope you're using lemuel_hellion_island to test 00:17:15 <3 00:17:18 the relevant code explicitly enumerates beam types, none of which are BEAM_HELLFIRE 00:17:21 nah just &M :( 00:17:27 rip 00:17:41 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:18:26 did you see patashu's "make hellfire green" thread? 00:18:52 o_O? 00:18:59 Almost everyone upon first encountering hellfire will think that it shares properties with fire damage, e.g. that it is AC resistable and rF resistable. In fact, I believe it is a spoiler that this is not true! It's awesome when people die, but it should be due to their own mistakes, not due to a false impression the game gave them. Making hellfire green instead of looking identical to fire... 00:19:01 ...will prompt the user that 'hey, this isn't regular fire anymore, it follows its own rules'. 00:19:03 that's it, that's the thread 00:20:30 imo make it white or lightblue instead 00:20:39 (fire so hot it ignores the normal resistances) 00:20:42 green feels like a traditional evil fire thing 00:20:57 unless these are some kind of technologically superadvanced demons 00:21:00 (please tell me the physics behind this premise isn't lost on people <_<) 00:21:00 you could call them 00:21:02 ... 00:21:08 cyberdemons 00:21:12 dang 00:21:25 no I get the physics 00:21:35 !send PleasingFungus realistic physics 00:21:36 Sending realistic physics to PleasingFungus. 00:21:36 I just think that a physical analogy for supernatural fire hurled by demons 00:21:41 is sort of the wrong direction to go 00:21:46 I guess I don't feel strongly about it. 00:21:47 butbutbutbutbut 00:21:51 realism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 00:21:53 <3 00:22:24 !send Grunt realistic demons 00:22:24 Sending realistic demons to Grunt. 00:22:29 they'll visit you at night.... 00:23:34 !send Grunt daemons 00:23:34 Sending daemons to Grunt. 00:23:53 !send SamB dæmons 00:23:54 Sending dæmons to SamB. 00:23:57 !sendmail 00:24:07 !send PleasingFungus a mail dæmon 00:24:07 Sending a mail dæmon to PleasingFungus. 00:24:36 no, not sendmail! 00:24:44 exim or postfix maybe, but not sendmail! 00:26:50 <|amethyst> Exchange!!! 00:27:58 ugh. this image editor is really not up to a simple recoloring, as far as I can tell 00:28:10 noooo! I wouldn't wish exchange upon Microsoft themselves!!!! 00:28:23 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:29 except the Exchange/Outlook teams, maybe 00:32:16 Hey, PleasingFungus, are you still around? 00:32:19 probably 00:32:21 why 00:32:26 ;-P 00:32:33 I was looking at the SH changes and I had a question. 00:32:50 It looks to me like SH is now 1/3 as effective as EV. 00:32:57 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:16 Was that the intent? 00:33:39 what? 00:33:46 SH gets thirded in player::shield_bonus() before attacks check it. 00:33:55 (Versus EV which does not) 00:34:25 %git 0c40c516c2a8f9b7e4864639efbdf274490b77fd 00:34:26 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-1254-g0c40c51: Halve displayed SH values (crate) 10(5 weeks ago, 6 files, 29+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0c40c516c2a8 00:34:36 -!- Aryth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:46 %git fd0dc405fee0f2d307e8b134f5d0acbc8ccff674 00:34:46 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-1156-gfd0dc40: Double the SH bonus from shield enchantments 10(6 weeks ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd0dc405fee0 00:34:46 That's the value returned by player_shield_class() correct? 00:34:58 Keanan: that was already done before 00:35:18 it wasn't a change that I made 00:35:23 Yeah, It looks like it used to be doubled then thirded. 00:35:32 Then it got un-doubled. 00:35:37 so now it's just thirded 00:35:56 okay 00:36:24 Grunt: one problem with recoloring hellfire is that it makes hellions weird 00:36:27 if their flame is a different colour 00:36:28 (So now for example, 12 SH value gives you a 4 vs d(monster'sHD+15) 00:36:33 I guess you could recolour them too... 00:36:51 oh 00:37:11 keanan, are you sure you aren't getting this backwards 00:37:20 Well, that's why I'm asking. 00:37:35 Shield class returns the SH value that appears on screen afaict 00:37:39 no 00:37:41 (The math bears this out) 00:37:49 !source player_displayed_shield_class 00:37:50 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/player.cc;hb=HEAD#l2781 00:38:12 Oh 00:38:13 Hm, 00:38:15 IC 00:38:34 literally the only change I made to the internal math was to increase the value of shield plusses, and tweak bone plates a little 00:38:53 Ah. 00:42:17 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:42:21 sorry, it wasn't a very elegant implementation 00:42:30 reaverb wants to refactor the code to use the halved number throughout 00:42:34 which would probably be simpler 00:42:36 Nah, it's not you're fault, it's just a little confusing. 00:42:43 (Since it's in multiple places. 00:42:48 yep 00:43:23 The current apparrent number *is* 2/3 as effective as EV though. 00:43:30 (not 1/3 as I thought) 00:43:55 that's in line with what crate's experiments suggested 00:44:38 *nodnod* 00:45:19 Probably I would personally prefer it if the display number was actually comparable to EV in terms of effectiveness. 00:45:39 (So rather than display == 1/2 raw, display == 1/3 raw) 00:45:55 Or of course refactoring it so it's not a giant ugly mess :) 00:46:38 what would you do with shield plusses? 00:46:43 Is there any reason player_display_shield_class doesn't just call player::shield_bonus() to get it's display? 00:46:43 Right now they correspond to the displayed number 1:1. 00:47:01 why would it? 00:47:14 <|amethyst> Keanan: shield_bonus is random 00:47:18 Well, because that's the number used in the roll in the place where the EV number is rolled. 00:47:23 Oh, good point, duh. 00:47:32 I knew that. I am just brain dead. 00:49:39 PleasingFungus: I would probably leave the plusses as-is presently and just make them each worth 2/3 of a display number, it sounds like shields might be up for some refactoring at some point in the near future, so I don't expect that awkwardness to be permanant. 00:50:04 I'm honestly reasonably happy with how shields are, in terms of their effectiveness as equipment choices. 00:50:06 -!- purge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:50:13 I don't think there's much need to change them further right now. 00:51:31 <|amethyst> monster shield bonus formula could probably use tweaking 00:51:48 <|amethyst> shields seem to be much more effective for monsters than for players 00:51:57 Ok, if "2/3 as effective as EV for half of your hands and a bunch of XP" seems right then it seems right, I'm not too worried about that. I just would (personally) like to be able to look at the numbers and say "hey, my shield is about as effective as my EV because the numbers are the same" 00:53:19 It's not a 1:1 in any case because shields don't affect some things that ev does: e.g., beams. 00:53:42 Sure sure, and I get that they "arent' the same thing" in the same way that AC and EV aren't the same thing. 00:53:49 obviously just multiply the displayed EV value by 1.5 00:53:58 that'd work too :) 00:54:17 <|amethyst> I'm still not sure about this 2/3 number 00:55:10 <|amethyst> shields and dodging get compared to different things 00:56:57 oh god, I just realized that 'dimme' could be taken as the world's worst blond joke 00:56:57 ugh 00:56:57 <|amethyst> as you pointed out, shields get compared to (random2 of) 15 + hd * 2/3 00:56:57 <|amethyst> but to hit is based on 18 + hd * 3/2 00:57:00 <|amethyst> more for MF_FIGHTER 00:57:59 <|amethyst> (it's different when the player's the attacker: their shield bypass ability *is* based on to-hit) 00:58:47 To me it looks like monster to-hit is 18+(HD*(25|15)/10 so HD*2.5 or HD*1.5 for a non-fighter. 00:59:03 <|amethyst> that's what I said 00:59:12 <|amethyst> 3/2 == 1.5 00:59:17 *nodnod* 00:59:21 Ok 00:59:44 So they are vaguely comparable. 00:59:58 <|amethyst> also, test_hit is not trivial 01:00:55 <|amethyst> there's always at least a 2.5% chance of hitting and 2.5% chance of missing 01:01:05 <|amethyst> which shields don't have 01:01:09 Yes, I noticed that. 01:03:38 %git :/egen 01:03:39 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-1584-g9b7421e: Remove the dragon slaying brand 10(3 weeks ago, 15 files, 13+ 54-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9b7421e1bc34 01:03:41 hm 01:07:40 lotta work these last two weeks, but mostly internal stuff 01:07:48 though I'm sure I'll discover half a dozen things I missed as soon as I push... 01:08:03 I can see why reaverb might want to refactor the code, getting all the math in one place and eliminating corresponding divisors that cancel each-other out might be nice. 01:08:37 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1940-g2d7905a: Changelog through 0.15-a0-1939-gf284a85 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d7905a8d14a 01:13:15 huh. running fsim with an octopode causes a crash sometimes 01:13:16 neat 01:16:48 !source actor.cc:589 01:16:48 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/actor.cc;hb=HEAD#l589 01:16:48 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:16:48 also, using fsim on a jelly can cause stuff like "corr: -61704)" 01:16:48 Yeah, Ghost moths and liches can be fun too. 01:18:27 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:19:19 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: so it's starting to constrict a monster it was already constricting 01:20:07 <|amethyst> not sure how we want constriction to show up in fsim anyway 01:25:16 not a big deal for what I was doing anyway 01:27:14 ??objstat 01:27:14 objstat[1/2]: Run with "crawl -objstat" in a full debug build of crawl ("make debug") to generate item/monster statistics by level/branch; see crawl -help for details 01:27:15 ??objstat[2 01:27:15 objstat[2/2]: Latest statistics: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10fNR1JApV-AyF6vdv-g3S3FUUzSSIrUu3OTMWMEoaaA/edit#gid=681767829 01:27:33 -!- MrPeeps has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:03 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 01:29:21 it's reaverb! I was talking about you earlier and I forget why 01:29:31 PleasingFungus: sharks haven't been removed yet :D 01:29:37 o 01:29:41 rip 01:29:58 I figure they'll be removed at least as soon as sublimation of blood subliming chunks 01:30:05 so it's all good 01:30:05 PleasingFungus: Ha. 01:30:14 Earlier you were talking about shield code. 01:30:37 and how I brought up it should probably be refactored. 01:30:46 I should probably handle brand code first though <_< >_> 01:32:00 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-1941-g6b67a30: Don't crash fsim when the player constricts (PleasingFungus) 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6b67a3050070 01:32:21 oh, that was it 01:32:23 ty 01:32:40 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:32:47 hm. objstat claims that 460 sling bullets are generated in a typical 3-rune game 01:32:59 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33:07 but, where? 01:33:21 <|amethyst> snake, shoals ? 01:33:34 snake generates, on average, 5 bullets 01:33:39 <|amethyst> oh, hm 01:33:42 oh 01:33:44 that might be one level 01:33:52 yeah I was misreading it 01:33:54 <|amethyst> does this count monster loot or just floor? 01:34:16 both, I think 01:34:29 ok, d generates with about 110 bullets 01:34:31 <|amethyst> I guess sharpshooters don't have slings all that often 01:34:43 snake has 30 01:34:51 also I'm not sure they ever have slings? 01:35:04 yeah they don't 01:35:10 <|amethyst> oh 01:35:12 <|amethyst> that was removed 01:35:13 <|amethyst> okay 01:35:38 hm. I'm starting to think I should just implement the 'weapon skill doesn't affect projectile damage' thing 01:36:00 since it's hard to balance slings when they're sometimes flails and sometimes demon whips 01:36:23 <|amethyst> goblins, joseph, fauns, cherubim get slings 01:36:35 sounds right 01:36:44 ah, goblins would explain the d numbers 01:37:04 <|amethyst> hm 01:38:09 <|amethyst> goblins only have a 1/15 chance of getting sling bullets though 01:38:09 PleasingFungus: If you want to further the cause of shark removal you could look at these vault edits: http://bpaste.net/show/ImnOOiaHJn2aVeMqFacR/ 01:38:09 fixing slings and then going to bed, I think 01:38:09 sorry 01:38:09 <|amethyst> there's still code for satyrs to always get the stone -> bullet upgrade, but... 01:38:24 PleasingFungus: ah, Ok. 01:41:13 !tell nicolae I'm trying to remove sharks before 0.15 goes out, but I'm not sure what to do about nicolae_underground_beach. I was thinking of pushing it deeper and replacing the sharks with a kraken. Do you have any ideas? 01:41:13 reaverb: OK, I'll let nicolae know. 01:43:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:43:27 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:20 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54:55 -!- magicpoints has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:22 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:24 -!- Amy|Sonata has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:31 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:13:07 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:20 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:20:02 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 02:20:54 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1941-g6b67a30 (34) 02:22:02 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:12 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 33.0a1/20140702030201]] 02:25:18 -!- zxc232 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:03 -!- Xen has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:45:32 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 02:46:31 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:47:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:19 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:01:33 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:01:34 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:11 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:25:11 -!- Wolfechu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:28:51 Cannot cancel out of ally swap prompt for zot trap 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8768 by johnnyzero 03:30:38 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:59 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:19 -!- giantbat has quit [Quit: ???] 03:37:13 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:13 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:38:15 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:29 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:42 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:42 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:41:55 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:41 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:00:13 -!- Basil has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:03:22 -!- aelor has quit [Client Quit] 04:05:27 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:38 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:03 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:05 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:26:16 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:11 -!- tw__ is now known as tw_ 04:40:00 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:13 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:46:21 -!- PsiRedEye23 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:56:05 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:00:12 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:20:33 -!- read has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:29:34 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:31:02 -!- Stelpa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:06 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 05:45:18 -!- rophy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:47:22 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:56 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:08 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:10 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:35 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:58 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:03 -!- Wahaha has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:11:42 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:32:03 -!- Adder_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:53 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:45:08 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:51:22 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53:32 -!- TS__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:54:29 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07:52 -!- syndicus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:02 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:24 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:19:35 !messages 07:19:36 No messages for Lasty. 07:20:22 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:52 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:28 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:28:18 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:55 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:40 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:12 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:40 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:43:53 huh, 30,000 is equal to infinity 07:43:57 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:29 is there any good reason to make dropping stuff take multiple turns now that item destruction is gone? 07:47:07 Well, you want to prevent people from being able to drop items in a pattern that spells out "Elbereth" quickly . . . 07:47:23 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:47:27 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:36 More serious response: now that throwing can be faster than 1.0 aut, dropping things should at least be made as fast or faster than the fastest throwing speed so that you don't incentivize players to train Throwing in order to drop things faster. 07:49:02 are people really that urgent to drop their tomahawk 07:49:03 s 07:49:13 do... people actually do that? 07:49:26 s/are people/is it/ 07:51:19 the "real" problem would be that technically throwing stuff to the ground is better in terms of piety saving than dropping it 07:51:38 but since it only applies to throwables it's a small enough effect 07:53:02 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:56:26 <|amethyst> and only if it's a single item 07:56:58 kvaak: I don't think anyone does it, but we still shouldn't incentivize it 07:57:15 the disincentive is the xp cost 07:57:43 Also technically hunger is an issue 07:57:51 I mean, there's infinity food righ tnow 07:58:04 but some players seem to struggle with it, and they could theoretically save food by dropping things faster :p 07:58:23 how often does a character who struggles from food need to drop stones 07:58:32 <|amethyst> they save turncount by dropping slowly 07:58:39 <|amethyst> not just stones, *one* stone 07:58:53 <|amethyst> dropping takes the same amount of time whatever the size of the stack 07:58:55 <|amethyst> throwing does not 07:59:11 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:49 and even if it is a problem, it doesn't seem to be a reason to make dropping stacks take multiple turns 08:00:39 Currently the only reason to ever drop anything is that you want to pick something else up and your inventory is full, so the only way this has tactical implecations is if you're in danger with a full inventory and also want to grab something off the ground before escaping. 08:01:05 . . . except mummies, I guess. You could drop things to avoid having a mummy curse them, but I doubt anyone does that 08:01:18 i drop stuff now so i don't have to drop stuff later 08:01:47 so i don't even run into that implication 08:02:48 not that i can code this without descending into DELAY CODE 08:03:31 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:08 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:28 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:44 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:15 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 08:21:48 -!- Evablue has quit [Quit: Evablue] 08:30:22 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 08:32:14 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:34:48 -!- puissantveil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:35:00 -!- Piginabag has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:35:22 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:43 -!- Evablue has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:49 -!- Kazimuth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:08 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:52 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:13 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:58:31 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:01:41 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:04:45 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: negatendo] 09:08:03 -!- predator117 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08:21 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:13 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 09:13:40 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1942-ge5d7017: Reduce the startup time of Malign Gateway 10(33 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e5d7017d8cb7 09:13:40 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1943-g379beb6: Remove Haunt from the Grand Grimoire 10(33 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=379beb6308ac 09:13:40 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1944-g3d46826: Let Felids be fully bound under Ashenzari when all their slots are cursed 10(33 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3d4682682ae7 09:13:40 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1945-ge7b52e1: Don't consider the finger necklace's ring slot for Ash boundedness 10(31 hours ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e7b52e16aab9 09:13:40 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1946-g34a3de9: Fix hellfire burst being a different colour to hellfire zap 10(17 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=34a3de93f540 09:16:42 -!- Euph0riaX has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17:14 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 09:20:11 -!- absolutego has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:01 -!- GrFi has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:31:06 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:42 -!- Wehk has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:31:49 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:01 Fedhas gives a misleading/redundant message when firing through bushes. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8769 by Kvaak 09:44:37 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:52:37 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:57:30 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 09:59:53 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:59:53 -!- Evablue_ is now known as Evablue 10:00:15 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:09 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:33 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:14 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:52 !lm johnny0 x=src 10:13:53 26642. [2014-07-08 07:58:50] [src=cszo] johnnyzero the Unseen (L17 TeAs of Kikubaaqudgha) killed Jorgrun on turn 33478. (Swamp:2) 10:13:57 !lm johnny0 x=tiles 10:13:58 26642. [2014-07-08 07:58:50] [tiles=false] johnnyzero the Unseen (L17 TeAs of Kikubaaqudgha) killed Jorgrun on turn 33478. (Swamp:2) 10:14:03 hm 10:15:31 How can I run the online version of console? (Is there a meaningful difference between that and offline console?) 10:15:39 Trying to replicate 8768 10:16:03 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 10:16:05 ssh 10:17:47 What do I need to have running locally? 10:17:59 linux or windows 10:18:04 ? 10:18:06 no I mean 10:18:10 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:18:14 the executable that I am sshing to connect to 10:18:20 -!- TS__ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:04 * geekosaur parse fail 10:19:05 !bug 8786 10:19:05 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8786 10:19:52 !bug 8768 10:19:53 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8768 10:19:56 nothing? 10:19:59 dyslexia 10:20:09 So long as you can ssh, just connect to a server like s-z 10:20:20 Will I have wizmode there? 10:20:25 if you're on windows, install putty. on most unixlikes you already have a terminal and ssh 10:20:33 I suppose I can just check 10:20:36 that's all you need 10:20:39 admins can activate wizmode on T1 10:21:03 -!- Zermako has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:25 And console and tiles don't have different accounts, you can start a game in tiles and continue in console or whatever 10:21:30 Yes, I know all of that. 10:21:38 I've ssh'd to the e.g. CSZO before. 10:22:15 I was trying to replicate 8768 with the save that johnny0 provided, so my plan was to host a local server, put his save in the appropriate directory, load it up, and test. 10:22:31 Since I've already tested in offline tiles, offline console, & webtiles, and was unable to replicate in any of those. 10:23:21 okay devs I've done it 10:23:34 I've found the single most insane complaint about weight removal: 10:23:37 "If I am a weak mage, and can carry 20+ rations, then starvation will never "await me" on the Labyrinth. That was a price for being weak. Now everything goes into INT and/or DEX." 10:23:37 you can activate wizmode whenever, not just turn 1 10:23:49 Oh huh 10:23:59 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:02 minmay: the hunger cost.....! 10:24:33 turn 1 wizmode was just a suggested way of allowing non-devs to use it 10:24:56 huh, lab deaths are way up recently 10:24:58 Mm, got that mixed up 10:25:03 !lg * labyrinth s=ktyp recent 10:25:04 1223 games for * (labyrinth recent): 1008x mon, 148x beam, 20x quitting, 14x headbutt, 10x starvation, 9x pois, 3x disintegration, 2x cloud, 2x water, divine wrath, targetting, lava, burning, trap, beogh smiting, wild magic 10:25:37 i don't think any server admins have enabled that though, since there is potential for bad things (like high server load with lots of fsimming) 10:26:05 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:26:12 !lg * lab ktyp=divine_wrath 10:26:13 1. rayonic the Grappler (L12 TrMo of Nemelex Xobeh), killed by the wrath of Vehumet in a Labyrinth (labyrinth_hidden_loot) on 2013-12-20 16:55:41, with 18631 points after 14997 turns and 2:24:09. 10:26:36 !lg * lab ktyp=targetting 10:26:37 1. sdynet the Fetichist (L11 DsAr of Nemelex Xobeh), killed themself with a badly aimed orb of electricity in a Labyrinth (labyrinth_watery) on 2013-12-16 13:18:14, with 8596 points after 14409 turns and 1:43:27. 10:26:43 yessss 10:26:44 MarvinPA: Can't you already do that with sputterflies and such 10:26:54 or has the summon cap nerfed that strategy 10:27:52 or unthrottled bots, if you just want to hammer a server deliberately 10:28:21 not that anyone would ever do that........ 10:28:32 How easily is it to fuck with the servers undeliberately with fsim 10:28:33 I'm pretty sure fsim is much, much worse than that 10:28:35 but i guess fsim has higher risk of causing issues accidentally rather than deliberately. no idea really 10:28:50 I mean just try running it with an axe, it takes several minutes to finish on my computer 10:29:18 with a what 10:30:31 er, I meant a *quick* fsim takes several minutes 10:30:36 I don't want to know how long a proper one takes 10:30:44 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:01 oh, you mean fsimming axe combat. I thought you were running crawl on a guitar 10:33:07 presumably an electric guitar 10:34:39 * Grunt shreds the broad axe of distortion!!!!! 10:40:47 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:41:47 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:42:14 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:19 -!- lessens has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:44:29 -!- shackes2 has quit [Client Quit] 10:45:00 -!- shackes has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:45:37 -!- lessens_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:43 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 33.0a1/20140702030201]] 10:52:10 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: "It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."] 10:53:18 -!- Evablue has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:38 -!- magicpoints has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:21 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:01:12 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 11:03:28 -!- read has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:40 -!- radinms has quit [] 11:08:09 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:09:01 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:03 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18:34 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 11:19:19 So I was playing 0.14 console yesterday, skipping through Abyss 3, when I came across a beehive. I assumed it was a rune vault cause, you know, one doesn't see many beehives in the Abyss. 11:19:20 So after clearing out some of the inhabitants, I did a ctrl-F "rune"--there it is, top of the list! I press 'a' to guide me to it, and the game immediately crashes. 11:20:26 (grunt_abyss_rune_wretched_hive) 11:24:06 yes 11:24:11 that was a cyc quote btw 11:24:18 would I use allcaps??? 11:24:23 would I play 0.14 console???? 11:26:46 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:13 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:35 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:37:36 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: poop] 11:38:54 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:39:16 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:50 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:07 -!- holtwood has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:58 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:59:30 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:19 <|amethyst> hrm 12:03:29 <|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12996: 12:03:34 <|amethyst> It drives me nuts that when you reflexively cast a spell with no valid targets, it uses a turn. The biggest case of this is while attacking an enemy that just turned invisible- if you are reflexively using the main attack spell, it just gives them free hits. Tabbing with no targets in view doesn't use turns, why should attempting to cast a spell with no targets do so? 12:03:42 -!- read has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:50 <|amethyst> I'm not sure what this person is doing that takes a turn 12:03:50 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:42 yeah I was wondering about that too 12:05:47 <|amethyst> maybe their main attack spell is ignite poison or something? 12:05:53 <|amethyst> refrig 12:06:20 refrig hits invisible targets 12:06:29 if ignite posion doesn't, it probably should 12:06:59 -!- Cerpin has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:01 <|amethyst> I was just trying to think of "main attack" spells that don't use a targetter 12:08:18 maybe it's a spell that does have one and somehow he's aiming at blank space and confirming through 12:09:04 |amethyst: define "main attack spell" 12:09:11 (Shatter and Tornado don't use targetters) 12:09:25 ??melee 12:09:25 melee[1/2]: a very good spell 12:09:25 they *also* don't fail against invisible enemies! 12:09:32 !send Basil SPELL_MELEE 12:09:33 Sending SPELL_MELEE to Basil. 12:10:26 <|amethyst> SwissStopwatch: I guess if he has a macro to Za that would do it 12:11:25 <|amethyst> though he'd be zapping himself then 12:11:27 good 12:11:34 zapzapzap 12:12:55 ??melee[$ 12:12:55 melee[2/2]: means that if the monster decides to cast a spell, it can pick melee as its spell. If it picks melee as its spell, it walks towards you or melees. Basically it's a way of giving a monster high HD (casts more often and with higher spell power) without making it cast TOO often. 12:13:25 Not a monster spell: 'melee' 12:13:25 %??test spawner spells:melee 12:13:28 what 12:13:34 ha, ha, ha 12:13:43 statue punch 12:13:46 !learn add melee Not a monster spell: 'melee' 12:13:47 melee[3/3]: Not a monster spell: 'melee' 12:13:54 -!- Arkaniad|Laptop has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:56 -!- Tenda has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:00 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1946-g34a3de9 (34) 12:14:02 ??hell sentinel 12:14:03 hell sentinel[1/1]: A rank 1 demon. Lots of AC, omniresistant, speed 10, spiny, casts hellfire and iron shot (but not torment). 12:14:04 Hell Sentinel (071) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 121-168 | AC/EV: 25/3 08(spiny 5) | Dam: 40, 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3263 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, iron shot (3d33) | Sz: Large | Int: high. 12:14:04 %??hell sentinel 12:14:38 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:07 !send Basil 27 Hell Sentinels 12:15:08 Sending 27 Hell Sentinels to Basil. 12:17:33 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:25 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-1947-g071ec8e: Remove a name-colliding randart name. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=071ec8e79a4d 12:20:33 heh 12:22:35 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-1948-g25feac7: Allow specifying spells:melee in monster specs. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=25feac74e372 12:22:42 dang, fast! 12:22:47 oh, while people are around. 12:22:55 I was doing some work on ranged combat reform last night. 12:23:16 PleasingFungus: do tell 12:23:43 |amethyst: hm 12:23:50 |amethyst: I feel as though there may be a cleaner way to do that 12:24:53 <|amethyst> Grunt: maybe :) 12:25:00 slings were basically easy - I made projectile damage act as +dam slaying instead of base damage, pushed base damage up to 7 (from 2), and sling bullet damage up to 5. testing, it seemed to be roughly as good as a flail when using stones, and slightly worse than a demon whip when using sling bullets, which seemed not completely unreasonable. 12:25:32 <|amethyst> Grunt: I figured setup_mons_cast didn't really need to handle it, but maybe that would be better 12:25:47 the basic design goal there being that they're low-investment 1-handed ranged weapons - demon whips being the precise analogy. 12:27:29 I want shortbows to be similarly low-investment 2-handers (ranged slightly-worse quarterstaffs - maybe 13 delay?), and longbows to be high-investment - maybe 17 delay. 12:28:49 the idea being that there would actually be a case where people use shortbows - though perhaps that's too strong, given that they allow you to later 'promote' to using longbows? not sure. 12:31:52 crossbows are the interesting question, though. the suggestion of making them scale poorly with skill by giving them high projectile damage/low base damage was suggested, but the problem is that most weapon damage scaling comes from the delay change, not the actual damage multiplication - even at a meagre 7 base damage, sling damage scales very very well with skill - up to mindelay. I'm also... 12:31:54 ...not convinced that we need a *third* low-investment ranged weapon... 12:32:40 perhaps crossbows should be good against evasive enemies? 12:32:51 the game doesn't expose ev at all, though. 12:33:02 and who's going to train up a weapon skill just to attack a particular enemy type? 12:33:03 -!- Kenran has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:33:27 I was thinking more from a "covering holes in your build" type thing 12:33:40 I am not convinced that is actually a thing in crawl 12:33:45 e.g. many characters want a rod of inaccuracy because it works well against enemies they otherwise couldn't hit 12:33:49 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:50 but yeah, it might not be 12:34:03 err, otherwise couldn't hurt 12:34:16 obviously they could hit them, seeing as they're vulnerable to inaccuracy :-) 12:34:25 rod of inacc is neat, but it does kind of suffer from hidden ev 12:34:33 I end up %?? everything I want to attack with it to check if it actually has ev 12:34:40 does a lich have good ev? who knows? 12:35:19 wheals suggested making their delay scale half as fast with skill as normal, but that's kind of obtuse. much better, I think, would be to make mindelay=delay for xbows. 1.5 delay, 1.5 mindelay. (and 2.0/2.0 for Sniper.) Give it huge base damage, so it's good early on and scales with skill, but is risky to use, since it takes so long to fire. the chei of ranged weapons. 12:35:59 I'd personally just argue for monster EV being visible, but I've made that argument before and lost it 12:36:07 so I don't really want to get into the argument again 12:37:42 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:09 I'm not really convinced that high acc is meaningfully interesting in the first place as a distinguishing feature for a weapon - see the discussion that led to the merging of slaying... 12:39:38 -!- Lighti has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:48 i'd still give it some delay scaling, zero skill shouldn't be overwhelmingly good probably? 12:40:22 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:23 but hitting min delay early could work maybe 12:40:45 PleasingFungus: any idea how player acc vs monster evasion works? 12:40:47 * wheals snipes PleasingFungus!!!! 12:41:02 Something like 1dAcc - 1dEv ? 12:41:16 although also basing stuff on min delay is sort of not great for the purpose of getting rid of min delay 12:41:16 setting aside sure blade and such 12:41:54 didn't know that anyone was still working on getting rid of mindelay 12:41:54 i guess in a min-delay-less world having its delay scale more slowly would be fine though 12:42:34 i don't think they are but that doesn't mean it's not something worth bearing in mind for the future 12:44:57 well, now that grunt made ranged weapons work analogously to melee weapons, my basic goal was to get ranged weapons to have reasonable stats again. in a new system, they'd have to be re-re-designed, yes 12:45:03 but so would everything else 12:46:09 that reminds me, if projectiles get turned into slaying-like they should get their base dam showed 12:46:11 or something 12:46:13 oh 12:46:15 they don't? 12:46:26 no 12:46:31 hm 12:46:40 of course, only with slings are you actually making a choice between types 12:46:40 that seems non-ideal 12:46:55 (projectile damage not being shown) 12:46:57 well, it made sense before the rewrite since the numbers were basically meaningless 12:48:56 well right now, ammo hiding its base damage means that launcher base damage might as well be hidden too 12:49:18 because knowing launcher base damage is useless if you don't know your ammo's base damage 12:49:54 also shortbows are already better than demon whips, you know that right 12:50:19 that is not a fact that is set in stone 12:50:25 it is a fact that is extremely to change 12:50:29 which, in fact, is why I'm changing it 12:50:32 that would be why there is a rebalance going in now 12:50:37 on, not in 12:51:03 well you said "the idea being that there would actually be a case where people use shortbows" and there are already an awful lot of those since they are better than demon whips! 12:51:08 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:51:46 using shortbows instead of longbows was specifically what I was saying 12:52:15 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:32 yeah and there are already plenty of times that you do that... 12:52:52 that is a good thing to preserve for the new numbers, then 12:53:08 not necessarily 12:53:11 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:18 anyway doesn't reforming ranged weapons to work completely differently than melee weapons kind of defeat the point of the previous reform? 12:53:26 no 12:53:56 the point was more to be comprehensible, and working the same as melee weapons works well for that 12:54:06 they still work almost exactly the same. you have a base damage which scales off weapon skill, a delay which is reduced by 1 aut for every 2 weapon skill, etc 12:54:17 if the new system is comprehensible (which remains to be seen) then it still fulfils the goals 12:54:18 it's just they also have bonus slaying-style damage from projectiles 12:54:25 you were just talking about changing the way the delay works... 12:54:38 I was talking about making crossbows, specifically, have a fixed delay 12:55:02 not a delay that scales differently, because that would violate the point of the design, exactly as you're saying 12:55:23 but looking at the crossbow, you would see: "base delay: 1.5. minimum delay: 1.5." 12:55:53 which is very straightforward 12:56:02 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:43 i suppose in the specific case of changing the scaling to 0 it's fairly easy to understand, but I'm not sure a launcher that doesn't improve with skill is good gameplay 12:56:53 my concern is that to get the math to work out, you'd need to make base damage scale more strongly with weapon skill (for crossbows), which would in fact impair the clarity of the design 12:57:00 yes 12:57:10 I need to run the numbers 12:57:24 hm 12:57:41 having it still scale but with a higher min delay than 7 would maybe work there and be comparable to eg sabres 12:57:50 Sounds like you'd be one-shotting orc priests or something if crossbows were to be worth anything later on 12:58:18 also, I don't get the point of attaching slaying to ammo. isn't it just like generating the launcher with higher enchantment (and enchantment cap)? 12:58:21 unless crossbow damage scales heavily to skill I guess 12:58:39 same as how the current situation (attaching base damage to ammo) is just like giving launchers extra base damage 12:58:43 sabres are already a special case that I don't like very much 12:59:01 yeah, I think I'm probably going to set projectile damage to 0 for arrows & bolts 12:59:06 yes I'm not sure why anyone would point to cutlass mindelay as an example of something where crawl is clear and makes sense 12:59:18 -!- renftw has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:30 the projectile damage thing is just so that stones and sling bullets are differentiated in a way that's not impossible to balance 12:59:33 I mean it's different if you make it so there are a bunch of different ammo types for the same launcher but that doesn't seem worthwhile, sling+stones is already godawful 12:59:53 probably it can be removed entirely when base ammo is made unlimited, but that's not going to be in 0.15 12:59:54 I can't imagine how you could possibly distinguish stones and sling bullets in a way that isn't "sling bullets are better" 13:00:09