00:01:09 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:52 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:59 -!- ssrat has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:14 -!- Kramin has left ##crawl-dev 00:08:16 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1547-ga75cd29 (34) 00:10:09 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:12:08 -!- jaumoose has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:07 -!- jaumoose has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:39 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1547-ga75cd29 (34) 00:20:12 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:17 -!- Bazzie has quit [Quit: "[x] Genuflect"] 00:22:32 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1548-ge962be8: Some more spell icons (roctavian) 10(86 seconds ago, 10 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e962be8d23cd 00:26:58 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 00:28:57 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:27 huh, didn't notice wheals had changed death curses to always hit the player. 00:31:34 interesting. 00:31:43 -!- eb_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:02 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:13 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:46 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:43 fr kali as a god 00:36:35 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:57:01 KALI-MA! 01:00:28 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:30 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:15:58 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:20 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:20:20 -!- asema has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:18 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:23:17 Disguised Mimic reported as "found one item" 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8695 by XuaXua 01:23:28 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140606030206]] 01:35:44 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:31 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:33 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:44 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39:44 -!- Werehuman has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:39:45 -!- conted has quit [Changing host] 01:39:45 -!- Werehuman has quit [Changing host] 01:40:19 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:44:16 -!- Kvaak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:44 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:48:43 -!- Kvaak has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:48 -!- Nomi has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:49:04 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:06 -!- Kvaak has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:53:37 Zot Teleport causes crash, with message "monster burning bush failed to pathfind to (39,26) (the Orb)" 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8696 by szymon 02:08:11 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:58 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:31 -!- coshxx has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 02:18:28 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:18:40 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1548-ge962be8 (34) 02:20:23 -!- joy1999 has quit [Quit: Http://www.ZeroIRC.NET ¢Æ Zero IRC ¢Æ Ver 2.9G] 02:26:10 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:35:02 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:36:19 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:28 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:46:18 -!- rophy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49:12 dang 02:49:21 no more box of beasts tech in tomb 02:50:24 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:56 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:28 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:58:55 -!- FlowRiser has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04:07 -!- ChangeAj has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:05:38 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:10:39 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:11:54 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:17 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 03:29:52 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:30:27 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:16 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:41:31 -!- HDA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:50:12 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51:57 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:51:59 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:56:48 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:27 -!- Nexos has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:03:30 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:08:41 -!- eb_ has quit [] 04:10:04 -!- RZX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:27 -!- bencryption has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:11:33 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:49 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:18 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:33 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:18:33 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:27 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:27:34 -!- mopl has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:32:46 -!- liquidsnake has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:44:56 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:56 -!- xordid has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:05:37 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:07:33 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:07 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:04 -!- FlowRiser has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:03 -!- Voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37:37 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:38 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:41:19 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 05:41:31 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:45:18 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:45:57 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:06:27 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:50 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:12:09 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:01 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:10 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:15:16 -!- Lasty1 is now known as Lasty_ 06:19:40 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:12 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:21:19 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:33 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:49 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:29:11 -!- Zifmia has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 06:35:05 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:09 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:39:18 -!- Lasty_ has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:42:14 -!- dirk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:18 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:22 hey so 06:43:31 I have a question 06:45:03 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:09 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:46:44 -!- rophy has quit [Quit: Miranda NG! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-ng.org/] 06:47:05 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:47:22 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:40 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:51:56 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:57:31 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:49 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:02:55 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:25 -!- Euph0riaX is now known as Euph0ria 07:09:22 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:49 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:12:22 -!- Sonata has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:40 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:46 -!- renl has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:02 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37:15 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:47 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:44:14 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:46:44 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:46 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:57:34 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:38 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:56 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:42 -!- Mattias has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:08:02 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:20 -!- Mattias has joined ##crawl-dev 08:10:28 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:28 -!- Patashu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:19:40 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:19:51 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:01 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:44 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:03 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:31:49 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:09 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:36:52 -!- dirk_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:44:55 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:46:32 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:27 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:00:41 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:04:48 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 09:09:47 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:15:03 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:43 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:54 -!- ckyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:56 -!- netkitten has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:30:36 -!- tali713 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:30:51 why do monsters deliberately waste charges from wands of teleportation, but not other wands? 09:30:58 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 09:33:44 well, I guess they waste dig charges too 09:34:22 but this seems like something that should happen for either all wands, or none of them 09:35:20 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:03 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:38:08 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:41:14 -!- tali713 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:54 -!- Amnesiac has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:57 -!- Amnesiac has left ##crawl-dev 09:54:16 <|amethyst> Lasty: it keeps offering me sacrifices even though I'm at max 'piety'. Also, spells from forbidden schools look like they can still be memorised; and it would also be convenient for cannot use devices to actually mark them as useless 09:55:34 -!- herself has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 09:55:46 |amethyst: I uploaded a patch for the second issue yesterday 09:55:47 Lasty: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:56:03 |amethyst: did you use wiz mode to check piety? 09:56:12 <|amethyst> oh, no 09:56:27 <|amethyst> do I get any benefit once I already have Cataclysm? 09:56:36 Yeah, all the abilities scale linearly off piety 09:57:00 so the remaining up-to-40 piety you're missing will buff those abilities by up to 25% over their current power 09:57:07 <|amethyst> aha 09:57:09 <|amethyst> also 09:57:13 <|amethyst> d - No ability None 0% 09:57:23 re: marking useless, that's on my list 09:57:24 <|amethyst> I only have two sacrifices available to me 09:57:34 d - No Ability is the top item on my list 09:57:40 <|amethyst> ah, good :) 09:57:45 I looked at it a while back but wasn't able to figure it out 09:57:53 I know more now, so hopefully I'll get it this time around 09:58:51 I'm fairly sure it's happening in the function in godabil.cc that pushes sacrifices onto available_sacrifices, but it could also be in ability.cc where it reads out ability.cc 09:59:02 <|amethyst> also, what counts as blood for Sanity? 09:59:04 The issue survived the transition from vectors to properties somehow 09:59:13 currently just tiles flagged "bloody" 09:59:24 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:53 <|amethyst> ah 10:00:22 I think I need to suppress that offered mutation for vampires 10:00:26 since they'd starve to death :p 10:00:38 (at least, they would if I implemented it for potions of blood" 10:00:39 ) 10:02:00 <|amethyst> Vampires don't starve to death 10:02:12 <|amethyst> but it would have a vastly different effect for them 10:02:16 True 10:02:40 But anyway, it probably shouldn't be offered to vampires for thematic reasons at least 10:03:32 <|amethyst> make it apply to water for vampires :) 10:03:43 <|amethyst> I guess shoals would suck :) 10:03:51 |amethyst: I think the last remaining serious "bug" is the no ability issue. After that most of the rest is playability tweaks and bikeshedding and balance, I think. 10:03:54 lol 10:04:04 constantly 20+ Horror 10:04:05 GL! 10:06:01 Should Horror have a specific number next to it, like Song of Slaying? 10:06:13 People have mentioned that the melee aspects aren't easy to notice 10:06:25 Though it could become easy to notice if we double the impact :p 10:06:53 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:11 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:11:22 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:11:24 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:11:28 |amethyst: did the spell memorization and monk fixes get updated into the experimental branch, btw? 10:12:19 <|amethyst> %git iashol 10:12:29 07Lasty02 {|amethyst} * 0.15-a0-1531-g85e6ef1: Iashol: Block skill training from sacrificed skill 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 29+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=85e6ef137cac 10:12:53 <|amethyst> that's the last thing I pushed (and I don't think I rebuilt for it but can't remember) 10:13:18 <|amethyst> anyway, I must go now.... I'll look over the further patches tonight 10:13:31 Thanks! I'll try to fix No Ability tonifhr 10:13:33 *tonight 10:13:38 <|amethyst> btw, you should get a gitorious or github account 10:13:41 Will do 10:13:47 Heck, I'll do it now 10:14:02 <|amethyst> (and set up a clone of crawl and push your version of the branch to that) 10:14:26 I'll try to get that all working by tonight 10:14:39 <|amethyst> easier in some ways than dealing with and losing track of patch files :) 10:14:47 <|amethyst> take care 10:14:52 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:07 <|amethyst> (err, I meant that in the "have a good day" sense, not the "be careful" sense :) 10:15:11 <|amethyst> later 10:15:14 haha 10:15:15 later 10:15:19 and be careful 10:15:20 :D 10:24:10 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:24 !messages 10:24:25 (1/1) PleasingFungus said (12h 9m 17s ago): btw, "I Asshole"'s name might need tweaking 10:24:40 yeah, probably so 10:24:47 I put up a tavern thread for it 10:24:48 Lasty: power leap is pretty gud 10:25:03 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:13 Bloax: Yeah, I think maybe a bit too good. I'm thinking the damage level should be reduced and/or tied to player XL 10:25:15 ditto Cataclysm 10:25:34 since otherwise they just own the early game 10:25:39 well it's a once-per-fight 10:25:41 yeah 10:25:55 and if you mess up you can't cataclysm your way out of a fight 10:26:04 I mean, when I got cocky with Cataclysm/Power Leap I started finding myself in really scary situations while exhausted 10:26:04 so it's not like it's a complete nobrainer 10:26:07 yeah 10:26:16 And the drain on Cataclysm is pretty serious right now 10:26:42 And exhausted & -Potions/Scrolls can be very, very bad 10:27:37 -scrolls seems to trigger rather infrequently 10:28:00 or well it sure didn't trigger at 27 hp/mp with Jory adjacent to me and a whole lotta stuff in sight. 10:28:47 Bloax: I tihnk the frequency needs to be improved -- right now it's one chance in max hp - 2xdamage 10:29:02 which is really infrequent when you think about it 10:30:16 A suggestion for a better formula would be appreciated 10:31:06 -!- umrain has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:31:40 maxhp in hp*3 ? 10:32:53 maybe *4 10:33:31 so if you're at 50/100 hp, you'd have a 100 in 150 or 100 in 200 chance (2 in 3 or 1 in 2)? That sounds a lot better . . . 10:34:57 !tell Lasty if (one_chance_in(div_rand_round(you.max_hp, you.hp*4))) 10:34:58 Lasty: OK, I'll let lasty know. 10:35:21 now to figure out a name 10:35:25 yeah 10:35:25 Lasty: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:35:41 Someone said something like Iaskol, which is better, but a little like "rascal" 10:36:13 well, if there's anything tavern is good for, it's providing an endless stream of name suggestions. 10:36:18 I'm sure there'll be something good, somewhere in there. 10:36:25 That's what I'm hoping 10:36:32 !tell Lasty Actually, that code doesn't work. Think about it more. 10:36:33 Lasty: OK, I'll let lasty know. 10:36:48 are full names okay 10:37:02 Full names as in first + last? Sure. 10:37:03 Lasty: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:37:13 Aw crap, it's gonna do that all day, isn't it 10:37:14 :p 10:37:30 Ishin Idago :v 10:38:00 afk for an hour -- lunch 10:45:08 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:51 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:17 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:56:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:02:00 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:05:36 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140606030206]] 11:07:04 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:09:23 dang 11:09:37 who made the xom-inner+stickyflamed-sheep vault 11:11:21 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5290 11:11:36 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:03 amazing vault 11:12:28 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:43 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-1549-gb42009b: Recolour weapons on the HUD while corroded (Patashu) 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b42009bcbeb1 11:19:45 -!- Cheibriados has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:21:00 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 11:21:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 11:22:40 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:25:44 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:39 -!- ckyle_ has quit [Quit: ckyle_] 11:29:59 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:29:59 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:31:45 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:32:05 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 11:32:45 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:41 -!- randart has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:34:41 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:36:24 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:33 -!- TR_Muscateer is now known as Cerpin 11:38:02 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:49 -!- eb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:33 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 11:45:19 -!- jeffro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:09 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:41 -!- st_ has quit [] 11:59:30 !tell ontoclasm You hear an incessant flurry of bony clicks and clacks! 11:59:30 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 11:59:35 !tell ontoclasm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/apocalypse_crab.png 11:59:35 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 11:59:48 !tell ontoclasm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/ghost_crab2.png 11:59:48 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 12:00:00 !tell ontoclasm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/fire_crab.png 12:00:01 Bloax: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 12:01:02 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:50 crab flurries sound delicious 12:02:53 or disgusting 12:02:56 not sure which 12:04:56 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:08:17 depends on how boiled they are 12:08:44 -!- Moredrea1 has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:09:03 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:39 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1549-gb42009b (34) 12:19:33 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:12 -!- negatendo has quit [Quit: negatendo] 12:29:49 -!- zxc232 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:31:21 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:34 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:39 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:40:17 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:45:31 -!- djetty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46:08 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:19 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:02 hi 12:53:01 -!- chewymouse has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:22 !messages 12:53:22 (1/4) Bloax said (53m 52s ago): You hear an incessant flurry of bony clicks and clacks! 12:53:27 !messges 12:53:32 !messages 12:53:32 (1/3) Bloax said (53m 57s ago): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/apocalypse_crab.png 12:53:36 !messages 12:53:37 (1/2) Bloax said (53m 49s ago): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/ghost_crab2.png 12:53:40 !messages 12:53:40 (1/1) Bloax said (53m 40s ago): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/fire_crab.png 12:53:49 why you gotta give me crabs 12:54:31 those look good aside from the mouthparts 12:54:49 crabs have mandibles and these look like they've got big cartoon lips 12:56:15 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:58 -!- wya has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:59:18 -!- crate has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:32 gimme a big smooch! 13:00:20 well the important part is that we now have crabs 13:00:25 crablips 13:00:49 http://sercblog.si.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Common_shore_crab_Arthro.jpg "dude, why you lookin at me like that" 13:01:25 also fire crabs need jewels on them! 13:01:43 you can't do jewels in such a small area 13:01:47 just let it go man 13:02:11 what 13:02:15 the existing one has them 13:02:20 they're just blue dots 13:02:23 it looks like water drops 13:03:05 also why would you want a jewelled shell over a REALLY DAMN SHINY shell 13:03:44 their description specifically says they have jewelled shells 13:03:57 it's a reference 13:04:10 in principle, descriptions can be changed, if the sprite is cool enough. 13:04:20 well yeah but it's a cool reference 13:05:01 oh, what's it a reference to? it does sound vaguely familiar 13:05:22 -!- SaintWacko has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 13:05:51 Oh hey, new crosstraining is proportional to the gap between the two skills? I thought it was just that training skill A also gives 20% skill points to skills B and C 13:05:54 I liked that better . . . 13:06:15 it would be funny if it raised skills above 27 13:06:28 As it is, cross training just means you get the first few cheap levels a little faster 13:06:31 "yeah now you can train weapon skills beyond 27!" 13:06:33 which is pretty worthless 13:06:45 (though not completely worthless) 13:06:46 "by training the skills it crosstrains with!!!" 13:06:57 "training skill A also gives 20% skill points to skills B and C" is the thing it does, yes 13:08:50 Oh, really? The thread on the tavern suggests that it only gives 20% of the skill point difference between A and B to B and 20% of the skill point difference between A and C to C 13:09:20 Such that the more you train B, the less benefit you receive from having trained A, until B passes A, at which point the benefit is eliminated. 13:09:51 If that's wrong, I'll set the record straight 13:10:03 the thread on tavern is pretty full of people who don't understand how skills work iirc 13:10:09 ah 13:10:29 you can eg try it in wizmode and see that if you put two skills that crosstrain at the same level, they will both be enhanced 13:13:06 Lasty: the practical bonus decreases because higher skill levels take more skill points though 13:13:31 Right, but the absolute number of skill points granted doesn't change 13:14:00 it would be silly if it did 13:15:50 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:58 agreed 13:16:05 although 20% is kind of low 13:18:52 yeah, I can imagine that number might be increased 13:18:57 but I think the overall scheme is a good one 13:19:15 certainly makes picking weapons up less useless until you get some experience into the skills 13:19:17 starting at not-zero skill is unquestionably a better experience than starting at 0 skill 13:19:45 And the silliness of being able to train short blades in order to get long blades cheaper than long blades alone would be is very odd. 13:20:25 well long/short blades are silly as it is 13:20:54 because you are at the bad disadvantage of both rarity and lack of crosstraining 13:21:16 (because the only thing that crosstrains with long blades are butter knives) 13:22:22 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:42 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: quit] 13:30:14 Great swords aren't rare 13:30:37 and it's easy to cross over into demon blades even w/o cross training, since both short blades and demon blades don't take much investment 13:35:19 -!- djetty has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:45 -!- Kvaak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:05 by the time you find demon blades you'll be wandering around depths/vaults 13:36:31 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:38:34 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:08 great swords are probably more common than great maces now and get significantly better brands 13:41:16 Great swords are very effective, too 13:41:30 -!- DKR has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:42:06 I'd probably rather save the XP required for skill levels 19 and 20 than have +1 base damage 13:43:27 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 13:48:46 -!- bmfx has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:50:19 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:46 PleasingFungus: hitchhiker's guide 13:55:58 i think it might be their in-game quote 13:59:53 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:00:32 -!- Kenran has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:05:19 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:46 ah, so they are 14:15:30 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:44 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Using leafChat 2] 14:18:10 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:02 !tell |amethyst https://gitorious.org/crawl/lastys-crawl -- I haven't had a chance to sync it up with my latest changes, but I'll do that tonight. 14:21:03 Lasty: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 14:23:05 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:11 -!- Psyknux has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:16 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:33 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:09 -!- Kintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:42 -!- lessens has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:57 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:03 -!- tollymain has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:29:51 -!- umrain has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:04 Lasty: oh yeah and don't forget acquirement 14:36:03 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:38:07 -!- Werehuman has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:33 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:02 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:25 Bloaxor: Yeah, that and useless items seem to be the two things people most want fixed 14:43:47 I'm going to try to do the No Ability and useless items things tonight, and if I have enough time maybe I can do acquirement too 14:43:54 I'm not sure how complex that is 14:48:18 -!- CryptoCactus_ has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:59 -!- Tenda has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:02:40 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:54 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:01 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Quit: Excess flood] 15:03:28 Lasty: acquirement code is awful. The only good thing I can say about it is that it's all in one place. 15:03:35 !source acquire.cc 15:03:36 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc;hb=HEAD 15:03:46 You invoke No Ability, calling down the terrible wrath of NO GOD against NONEXISTENT FOE. 15:04:10 haha 15:04:19 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:25 I think someone was right that No Ability is being used instead of SAC_LOVE for some reason 15:05:19 <|amethyst> aha, it's not listed in god_abilities 15:05:19 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:05:23 aha 15:05:31 oops 15:05:35 no no no 15:05:36 ??doh 15:05:37 |amethyst[1/10]: <|amethyst> doh 15:05:38 ^ 15:05:38 that'd do it 15:05:50 <|amethyst> nor in the relevant switch in _do_ability 15:06:04 <|amethyst> oh, no, Love is there 15:06:49 Just not in god_abilities? 15:07:36 -!- CKyle has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:51 -!- surprisetrex has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:03 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:35 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:00 -!- umrain has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:41 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:43 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:59 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:50 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:12 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:00 -!- CryptoCactus has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:39 * greensnark is amused by sac love 15:21:56 Sounds vaguely rude 15:22:50 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:41 -!- Bcadlich has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:54 -!- AtomikKrab has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:34 -!- Morik_ has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:29:52 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:31:43 -!- WereVolvo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:12 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:41 -!- Farcaster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52:23 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:55:06 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:50 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:31 -!- Hindered has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:34 -!- netkitten has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:52 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:38 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:40 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 15:59:52 -!- Bazzie has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:02 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:20 -!- y2s82_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:47 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:01:20 -!- Morik_ has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:01:21 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:45 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:03:45 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:26 -!- brainwrinkle has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:17 -!- Watball has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:26 -!- CKyle has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:06 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:34 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:11:27 -!- Notipsum_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:34 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:08 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:48 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 16:16:50 -!- AtomikKrab has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:55 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 16:17:53 Grunt: DEAD_MONSTER 16:18:47 this new simulacrum monster spell is silly in a very unfun way 16:18:48 ontoclasm: it would be DEAD FOE for the purposes of that message :) 16:19:01 ah 16:19:33 -!- valtern has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:15 i think we're almost done with spell icons for starting books 16:21:25 i just finished the rest of warper ones 16:22:01 The fungus is paralyzed by your wave of power! 16:22:10 God of power 16:22:37 mushrooms bow down before your might 16:22:53 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:10 * PleasingFungus bows 16:24:54 * ontoclasm is extremely pleased with you. 16:25:21 * Grunt is exalted by your worship. 16:26:44 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:29:11 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:29:15 -!- nooodl has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 16:29:20 I was thinking about implementing some variant of the 'death scarabs' people were talking about the other day. 16:29:49 could be a nice swap for some of tomb's excess guardian mummy population. 16:29:50 hey, that was my idea 16:30:20 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:36 ...with a few suggestions from me, too! 16:30:39 yes 16:30:51 !send gammafunk suggestions 16:30:51 Sending suggestions to gammafunk. 16:30:54 I had the idea a while back, starting from "fast, melee, ???" 16:31:03 my notes credit you two and also wheals 16:31:10 but I didn't feel it was good without something interesting 16:31:13 they also contain the line "AF_VAMPIRIC AF_DRAIN_XP AF_DRAIN_STATS AF_DRAIN_SPEED AF_ROT" 16:31:19 ug 16:31:21 haha 16:31:25 I'm probably most curious about the batty + miasma combination, but that has the potential to be awful if done badly. 16:31:32 yeah I'll mess around 16:31:33 How about an AF_SCARAB which cycles between those <_< 16:31:41 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:31:45 yeah see this is the problem, hard to find an interesting 3rd thing 16:31:50 that's not "yep. it does that" 16:32:03 ? 16:32:22 <|amethyst> Lasty: btw, with the min->max, sacrifice potions/scrolls do almost nothing 16:32:22 as in it's just not very good at anythign other than being fast and hitting hard in melee 16:32:38 like all those attacks you listed, just wear rn 16:32:49 rot is pretty terrible 16:32:54 gammafunk: why would you be doing Tomb without rN <_< 16:32:58 exactly 16:33:19 (also dang, you have me curious about an enemy with all of those specs now) 16:33:21 <|amethyst> Lasty: well, maybe not almost nothing, but they don't trigger often 16:33:27 and for drain speed, it's already a fast enemy, and slow is kind of covered by death curses anyhow 16:33:36 <|amethyst> Lasty: Part of that may be that this is an AC character 16:33:36 Grunt: A unique, maybe. 16:33:40 fast melee vamp enemies are already around (jiangshi) 16:33:47 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:33:53 right, again this is the problem with a new tomb enemies, the summons cover so much 16:33:57 I kind of feel that the better problem to solve is death curses 16:34:10 Solution to death curses: less guardian mummy spam 16:34:11 make those not so awful, and then adding new enemies seems more logical 16:34:12 which I think is why someone (grunt?) was replacing some of the summons with these guys 16:34:20 Yes, that was my suggestion. 16:34:26 *was suggesting 16:34:41 Grunt: there'd be fewer gmummies if some of them were scarabswarms instead. :) 16:35:11 I'm kind of enamored with the idea of having various other high level undead enemies besides gmummy spam. 16:35:16 right, I feel like the key thing with tomb is that it's annoying mostly because of death curses, and probably secondarily because of layout issues, stair dancing 16:35:21 Then again, you do get your fill of aliches on Zot:5 and so forth... 16:35:24 (presumably) 16:35:25 I wonder how tomb plays, now that you can't dodge death curses with summoned pals 16:35:50 not much different, since most don't use summons extensively really 16:35:51 probably about the way that it played when I first went through it and didn't know how to use summons: "very annoyingly" 16:36:02 TSO angels are a thing, but makign them do all the kills is pretty tedious 16:37:03 Let's see... I'm trying to remember who all I've cleared Tomb with by now. 16:37:19 There was the MfGl who was really more of a MfPa, and I mostly bardiched things to death. 16:37:21 I've done summoner, conjurer, melee, never a stabber 16:37:24 !lm Grunt tomb:3 s=char 16:37:24 11 milestones for Grunt (tomb:3): 4x MiGl, 3x DECj, 2x MfGl, 2x VpNe 16:37:40 !lm . tomb:3 s=char 16:37:40 !lm . br.end=tomb s=char 16:37:41 10 milestones for PleasingFungus (tomb:3): 2x HuAM, 2x HEWn, 2x HuWn, 2x CeHu, 2x NaSk 16:37:41 5 milestones for Grunt (br.end=tomb): 2x MiGl, MfGl, VpNe, DECj 16:37:45 (that's a better one to check) 16:37:52 The GhWz splatted on Tomb:2 of sheer boredom. 16:37:52 close enough 16:37:53 summoner was definitely the easiest, but that was pre-summons-death-curse nerf 16:38:02 The MiGls are ... obvious, I hope :) 16:38:11 blasters, I expect! 16:38:13 The DECj I remember... but the VpNe I didn't realise did Tomb. 16:38:22 It makes sense now that I remember it, but still. 16:38:35 !lm . vpne won rune s=rune 16:38:35 3 milestones for Grunt (vpne won rune): golden, gossamer, barnacled 16:38:45 (three-runing with Tomb is pretty stylish imo) 16:38:48 -!- valtern has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:48 !lm . br.enter=tomb won s=char 16:39:48 10 milestones for gammafunk (br.enter=tomb won): DsNe, FeCK, OpDK, OpTm, HEIE, VpIE, GhEE, GrDK, HEFi, DrMo 16:39:58 ah, DrMo, that was fun 16:40:06 ooh DrMo 16:40:08 That does sound fun <3 16:40:12 shatter ghoul funny 16:40:15 FeCK sounds better though!!! 16:40:24 was just a firestormer 16:40:24 !lm * feck rune=golden s=name 16:40:25 4 milestones for * (feck rune=golden): 2x gammafunk, Yermak, Ankalagon 16:40:27 oh 16:40:27 nothign to write home about 16:40:28 boring 16:40:29 :( 16:40:46 DsNe though, that was one of CursedNobleman's "unique runs" 16:40:50 It was "Ereshkigal" 16:40:59 so I was using her spells + malign 16:41:02 mm 16:41:04 that was actually a summoner I guess 16:41:09 That sounds pretty ... horrible. 16:41:16 funny thing, no XXX involved 16:41:19 (wait, that's not the right spell ;_;) 16:41:19 just SGD + malign 16:41:28 and it was tedius 16:41:31 *tedious 16:42:12 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:46 03reaverb02 07[smithgod_rebased] * 0.15-a0-1565-gc515916: Merge branch 'master' into smithgod_rebased 10(23 minutes ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c51591655f28 16:43:46 03reaverb02 07[smithgod_rebased] * 0.15-a0-1566-gfa7c0b1: Remove references to Igni making enchant scrolls not fail 10(8 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fa7c0b1901d6 16:44:00 !lm * feck rune=golden s=name xom 16:44:00 2 milestones for * (feck rune=golden xom): Ankalagon, Yermak 16:45:09 !tell dpeg I've merged master into smithgod_rebased. Igni is just being further left behind by Trunk. (See the change to enchant weapon scrolls). Do you have any immediate plans to move the god forward? Otherwise I think it might be best to talk about taking bits and pieces of the god rather than the whole thing. (Example: moving Igni's abilities to new misc evocables for Trunk) 16:45:09 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 16:45:13 Yeah I'm not really feeling any "death scarab" until a not-bad idea comes along; really though if we can make death curses better we'll have probably solved the biggest problem 16:45:20 !tell dpeg I've merged master into smithgod_rebased. Igni is just being further left behind by Trunk. (See the change to enchant weapon scrolls). 16:45:20 reaverb: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 16:45:23 !tell dpeg Do you have any immediate plans to move the god forward? Otherwise I think it might be best to talk about taking bits and pieces of the god rather than the whole thing. (Example: moving Igni's abilities to new misc evocables for Trunk) 16:45:24 reaverb: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 16:46:01 todo work out the conflict in the I god slot 16:46:03 <_< 16:46:25 Grunt: Iashol is being re-named anyway, I suggested on the thread a non-I name might be best. 16:46:39 I-arsehol 16:46:51 Uashol 16:46:57 But Iashol is being actively worked on and should get priority on the I slot if they need it. 16:50:29 imho crawl needs some kind of twin/bipartite god. then you wouldn't need to worry about the letter it uses; it could just take the slot right after TSO, "2" 16:50:57 butbutbutbut 16:51:03 We already want to do A-Z + 1 16:51:03 :( 16:51:13 PleasingFungus: There was a proposal for that on the dev wiki for a dual doors god. 16:52:29 rip Dooroklohe 16:52:38 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:46 Grunt: oh, right 16:52:49 because 26 letters 16:53:37 reaverb: doors god, eh? 16:53:46 (doors for the door god) 16:53:50 doors godS 16:54:04 cang 16:54:05 cang 16:54:12 cang (04Ω) | Spd: c | HD: i | HP: 666 | AC/EV: e/Ï€ | Dam: 999 | Res: sanity | XP: ∞ | Int: god | Sz: !!! 16:54:12 %??cang 16:54:12 cang 16:54:27 !!! 16:54:32 haha oh god it literally is titled "doorokhle" 16:54:34 fantastic 16:54:51 i hope doorokhle has a unique spellbook 16:54:54 PleasingFungus: There are several door god proposals by the way. 16:54:56 Doorokhle's Tome 16:55:01 -!- Lasty1 is now known as Lasty_ 16:55:07 For some reason. Not sure if doorokhle is the dual door god one. 16:55:09 Dooroklohe's Tome * 16:55:16 Zannick: dang 16:55:29 I wonder if I prefer Tome of Dooroklohe to that 16:55:36 (fr: that as an unrand??) 16:55:47 is it called tomb of doroklohe? 16:55:57 i forget 16:56:01 Well, there's a spell (Tomb of) and a wizlab ('s Tomb). 16:56:02 i mean to make it the same 16:56:05 aha 16:56:39 doorokhle is apparently the predecessor to the dual god, yes 16:57:21 theme is very good, pity there don't seem to be any good mechanics 16:58:06 vault wardens' spells? 16:58:21 Doorokhle & Igni: Gods of door and smithing 17:05:01 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:42 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:05:46 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 17:05:46 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 17:10:22 giant newt (03l) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 1 | HP: 1-3 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Dam: 3 | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(4), 12drown | XP: 1 | Sz: tiny | Int: reptile. 17:10:22 %??giant_newt 17:11:36 how do people feel, what are their emotions 17:11:39 when I say 17:11:42 "deep kraken" 17:11:50 let it roll around on the tongue a bit 17:13:08 Hmm, that's a kind of confusing phrase. It sounds like a kraken with blue skills (deep trolls tiles). Might be like that kraken unique proposed from the Heart of Zot forum proposal. I really have no idea what it is though. 17:13:15 s/skills/skin./ 17:13:27 gammafunk^ 17:13:28 ...heart of zot? 17:13:48 Oh yes, and I was thinking you were going to propose removing giant newts. 17:14:06 wait now I'm confused 17:14:25 is putatively removing giant newts at all connected to either deep krakens or heart of zot, whatever that is? 17:14:54 gammafunk: No, I just assumed you were going to propose that when you started with "how do people feel, what are their emotions" 17:15:09 The Heart of Zot is this old thing: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1091 17:15:11 ic 17:15:21 So what is this deep kraken? 17:16:14 Grunt: Jormungandr the World Hydra 17:16:38 reaverb: it's just a phrase at this point, and I'd like to know how it makes you *feel* in a short sentence 17:16:56 Ok then, just "Some sort of kraken with blue skin" 17:17:09 that's my sentance. 17:17:22 I was hoping for somethign more visceral, but fair enough 17:17:36 gammafunk: we already have a unique hydra <_ 17:17:40 Try "World Serpent" 17:17:52 Grunt: that was in KoboldLords "heart of zot" proposal reaverb just linked 17:18:08 along with "The Magma Crab" 17:18:16 <3 KoboldLord 17:18:22 -!- Hailley has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:50 We already have a unique hydra? 17:18:57 Oh, yes, Leny 17:18:59 oops. 17:19:11 !send Lerny reaverb 17:19:11 Sending reaverb to Lerny. 17:19:12 Never actually see him for some reason. 17:19:39 dang your taking things so literally/seriously reaverb, dang it to heck 17:19:39 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-1549-gb42009b (34) 17:19:50 dang your taking things so literally/seriously reaverb, dang it to heck 17:19:51 gammafunk: ??? 17:20:00 sorry, internet hiccup 17:20:00 dang 17:20:04 rip 17:24:05 gammafunk is consumed by the deep hydra! The Deep Hydra burps. 17:24:13 "Burrrp!" 17:24:26 PleasingFungus: I want that deep kraken reaction from you, dangit 17:24:46 I'm used to Grunt giving me only a newline, but not you 17:25:38 17:26:14 not sure. a kraken is already a cool mythical beast; I kind of feel like I'd want to make the existing kraken some kind of 'lesser kraken', rather than try to stick intensifiers onto a new, better kraken. 17:26:26 krakens should be scary! 17:26:29 it's The Kraken! 17:26:49 ("lesser kraken" is obviously a bad name, please don't pay too much attention to that bit) 17:26:50 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:59 hrm 17:27:01 greater (05X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 27 | HP: 320-382 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Dam: 50 | cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(108), 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 8943 | Sp: spawn tentacles, 04esc:ink cloud | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 17:27:01 %??kraken name:greater n_rpl hd:27 17:27:05 er 17:27:08 greater kraken (05X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 27 | HP: 320-382 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Dam: 50 | cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(108), 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 8943 | Sp: spawn tentacles, 04esc:ink cloud | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 17:27:08 %??kraken name:greater n_adj hd:27 17:27:10 close enough 17:27:12 I like the name "Kraken Hatchling" 17:27:18 krakenling 17:27:19 We have those. 17:27:20 yeah I'm thinking of a good "actual water" enemy to replace crushers and then give the throw thing to something better 17:27:22 kraklet 17:27:22 <|amethyst> Giant Squid 17:27:26 krakenling (11x) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 41-72 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Dam: 24, 503(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(10), 12drown | XP: 474 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:27:26 %??octopode name:krakenling n_rpl 17:27:33 nooooooooj 17:27:45 destroy all generic op enemies. The Worst 17:27:49 well it'd be odd to do a downgrade in depths what with full grown krakens in shoals 17:27:54 op enemies are just no 17:27:59 gammafunk: no you got me backwards 17:28:04 * Grunt throws gammafunk into the rock wall! 17:28:10 what do you mean? 17:28:11 water enemeis are just no. <_< >_> 17:28:20 reaverb: well they aren't easy to make, that's for sure 17:28:28 I was saying you'd make the shoals krakens into "krakenlings" and make the new, more powerful depths ones "krakens" 17:28:36 ah 17:28:39 possible 17:28:57 not sure I'd really change the existing ones in anythign but name though,yet that sounds kind of silly to do 17:29:01 shoals krakens are good 17:29:02 gammafunk: Hmm. 17:29:16 yeah I kind of like shoals krakens 17:29:17 hopefully no elite player comes in to smack me and tell me I'm wrong 17:29:42 Yestruday in theLogs minmay heavily implied he did not like krakens. 17:29:49 ....figures 17:30:04 I'm guess it's that you can just retreat inland 17:30:10 kraken lord (05X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 27 | HP: 320-382 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Dam: 50 | cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(108), 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 10349 | Sp: glaciate (42d1) | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 17:30:10 %??kraken name:kraken_lord hd:27 spells:glaciate 17:30:11 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 17:30:13 s/guess/guessing/ 17:30:16 brb 17:30:32 well they'd work less well in depths, regardless of what you thought of them 17:30:46 there's just generally less water 17:30:56 Hmm, didn't even realized they spawned in the depths. 17:31:20 what, krakens? don't think they do 17:31:31 Unknown spell name: 'summon kraken' in 'summon_kraken' 17:31:31 <|amethyst> %??kraken name:kraken_lord spells:summon_kraken 17:31:32 <|amethyst> FR 17:31:35 yeah they're not in the depths water population 17:31:43 Oh, water enemies as the "they" in "they'd" 17:31:52 summon kraken summons other kraken lords 17:31:57 who summon other kraken lords 17:33:48 hrm, tbh probably an amphibious monster that's faster in water, like hydra, but not pure melee 17:33:55 i wonder whose idea it was to make a cocytus end vault that requires flight 17:34:23 you won't believe how many blinks it takes to cross that without it 17:35:31 Bloaxor: I think there are layouts in Coc which require flight. 17:35:42 Since you're in Hell. 17:35:45 -!- Hailley has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:18 Speaking of layouts, does anybody have any comments on that infiniplex patch? 17:36:37 -!- Zooty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:51 reaverb: which one, he mae another? 17:36:57 or is it the second part of the old one 17:37:02 the weight change patch. 17:37:07 ah, right 17:37:54 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:11 reaverb: I'll take a look in a few hours and comment on it if no one else does 17:38:35 gammafunk: Would you want to apply it? the version on mantis doesn't apply to Trunk IIRC 17:38:44 but I have a local version which does. 17:39:06 reaverb: well, if you'd like to make that commit, I'm fine with that, or I can make it myself, whichever you prefer 17:39:44 gammafunk: What I was concerned about is if you wanted to play around with a version compiled with the changes, which would be much harder if it doesn't apply cleanly. 17:39:57 If you just want to look at the patch that's fine too. 17:40:07 oh, well I can certainly resolve any conflicts; if you'd like you could upload your resolved patch 17:41:01 but I think at most I'd be doing is just running some level generation with &R 17:43:56 gammafunk: Applies to Trunk version: http://bpaste.net/show/yQEkG5LnSGsFwDDv59bJ/ 17:44:00 reaverb: thanks 17:44:14 Sure. 17:45:03 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:28 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:46:42 oh weird, scroll of enchant weapon 17:47:09 Yes, now that slaying is one number. 17:47:46 How much work/how good an idea would a general "Scroll of Enchantment" like brogue be? (Weapon or Armour or Recharging) 17:47:57 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:48:25 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:41 not sure of the rest of the idea, but I think ?recharg should be separate from ?E* 17:48:49 I think it would make characters more similar and overly encourage "builds" 17:49:29 armour choices in particular depend a lot on number of enchant armour found 17:49:52 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:52 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 17:49:52 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:53 Hmm. 17:50:18 I could vaguely see a merge of recharge with brand weapon, but unsure what the point would be 17:51:19 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 17:52:29 rchandra: That's a very good point against this. Brogue encourages character variance in other ways. 17:53:07 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:53:16 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:01:20 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:00 !tell |amethyst the patches to fix amnesia and address the monk bonus piety are both on my git project now 18:03:00 Lasty_: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 18:05:17 Lasty_: I got those mystery sacrifices twice 18:05:25 you can't choose them either 18:12:18 -!- scummos^ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:04 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14:27 You offer to sacrifice No Ability to No God. 18:14:42 The terrible wrath of NO GOD summons DEAD FOE to fight you! 18:14:49 -!- Krakhan|2 is now known as Krakhan 18:14:50 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 18:14:53 A sheep catches fire! The sheep is struck with panic! 18:14:58 Gruuuuuuuunt! 18:15:01 !!!!!!!!! 18:15:19 great 18:15:22 that woke up harold 18:15:53 (also that isn't my vault; I just fixed it up <_<) 18:16:40 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:16:43 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:59 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:19 Grunt: the layout is broken? 18:18:27 ah 18:18:31 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:34 It's not broken, per se; just... not a very good layout when it's ruined like tihs. 18:18:37 *this 18:18:48 -!- wya has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:19:03 The idea: put a second filled-in cross in the centre --> less open space 18:19:12 (maybe have the very centre be open) 18:20:10 Grunt: do you know the lua wizardry to make hangedman_little_slice_of_home use no-jelly-eat doors insteda of runed ones 18:20:27 mm, just a second 18:20:29 !gammafunk: they aren't mystery sacrifice. I'm pretty sure it's ABIL_IASHOL_SACRIFICE_LOVE being mishandled and defaulting to ABIL_NO_ABILITY 18:20:31 i think zigs have them 18:20:38 I'm on it next 18:20:50 !send Grunt a Book of Minor Lua magic 18:20:50 Sending a Book of Minor Lua magic to Grunt. 18:21:18 * Grunt consults the Book of Lua Wizardry... 18:21:28 Ah, here we go. 18:21:51 Grunt casts a lua spell. The lua code seems to speed up. 18:22:05 You want a MARKER: + = lua:pros_marker({ door_restrict="veto" }) 18:22:11 (assuming the door glyph is +) 18:22:17 (obviously Lua Wizardry book has Lua Haste) 18:22:30 * Grunt casts a spell. The Lua flickers and vanishes! 18:22:46 cool, thanks 18:22:54 er 18:22:56 s/pros/props/ 18:23:09 * Grunt gestures. The typo is devoured by a tear in reality. 18:23:10 it always feels weird to say "oh no, a runed door" and then remember it's just that food vault 18:24:58 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:55 (fr un-rune door vault somehow) 18:26:02 PleasingFungus: great, a fire crab 18:26:03 s/rune/ruin/ 18:26:04 !!!! 18:26:08 gammafunk: oh wow 18:26:27 An ice dragon from the ice cave, and now a fire crab 18:26:38 FR: fire crab armour 18:26:45 maybe it could be a helmet 18:26:50 Would need shadow dragon armour fist. 18:26:52 oh 18:26:53 first. 18:26:53 or an unrand... 18:26:56 rf leather 18:26:57 nice 18:30:08 gammafunk: yessss 18:30:25 PleasingFungus: I'm going to kill your fire crab 18:30:28 with X e 18:30:58 riwp 18:31:01 rip 18:31:09 !send reaverb quicksilver dragon armour 18:31:09 Sending quicksilver dragon armour to reaverb. 18:31:12 !send reaverb iron dragon armour 18:31:12 Sending iron dragon armour to reaverb. 18:31:19 !send reaverb bone dragon armour 18:31:20 Sending bone dragon armour to reaverb. 18:31:28 (clearly you get the latter from a bone dragon skeleton) 18:32:11 swamp drake dragon armour 18:32:18 gives rMeph 18:32:32 Only if we get other drake armours too. 18:32:35 fire drake armour (rF+) 18:32:40 wind drake armour (rWind) 18:32:45 death drake armour (rMiasma) 18:33:03 -!- odiv has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:33:05 Make a random subset of the monsters which could possibly drop hides drop them in an arbitary game. 18:33:13 I'm kind of amused at the thought of rWind armour, actually. 18:33:23 The air twists around and strikes you! You resist. 18:33:24 Wind resistance is already a monster thing. 18:34:39 yeah 18:34:58 reaverb: unnethack randomization of dragon appearance vs breath weapons 18:35:16 crawl has been suffering for its lack of identification minigames, let's add dragon identification 18:35:40 Patashu: Won't be as fun. Crawl Dragons can't instakill you without the right resist <_< 18:35:49 darn 18:36:41 !send Patashu chromatic dragon scale mail 18:36:42 Sending chromatic dragon scale mail to Patashu. 18:37:00 (clearly we need the chromatic dragon as a Zot unique) 18:37:16 So a Tiamat dragon? 18:37:46 Obviously it doesn't *cycle*; it just resists everything and uses random breath weapons. 18:37:49 >_> 18:38:09 (actually I'm kind of reminded of the "crystal dragon" unique I had floating around a while ago - it reflects things that can be reflected) 18:38:32 "has reflection" 18:38:45 I'm not known for being concise :) 18:40:31 Donald the crystal dragon comes into view. 18:40:40 -!- netkitten_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:40:47 You zap the want of disintegration. The crystal dargon shatters! 18:40:51 s/want/wand/ 18:40:58 fr: crystal dagon 18:41:03 er s/dargon/dragon/ 18:41:15 gammafunk: that doesn't happen any more!!! 18:41:20 maybe Dagon is the sunken god... 18:41:27 The Broken God 18:41:46 he was broken, and then nerfed to oblivion/shoals 18:42:23 What do most people consider the "point" of traps? They have several good effects (combined with several negative effects) but there doesn't seem to be a consistant idea of what they are suppose to do. 18:43:10 they can be a wildcard that puts the player into more interesting situations (potentially) (teleport, shaft), and/or they can be interesting tactical terrain (zot traps, tele, etc) 18:43:31 zot traps in particular change how fights play out, because you want to control monsters' positioning and/or your own sight of the trap 18:44:17 -!- Ququman_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:49 PleasingFungus: What about the strategic effects, like Zot traps draining wands? 18:45:00 or just draining 18:45:11 well, the actual effects of the zot trap don't matter so much, in a sense 18:45:19 the key thing is 18:45:30 it is something you Do Not Want Monsters To Step On (or to step on yourself!) 18:45:55 Blerg. I think this make is hanging. 18:45:56 exactly *why* you don't want that is almost irrelevant; the key thing is that it's undesirable, and so you suddenly have a new priority to juggle 18:46:19 !send Lasty_ the terrible calamity of No Ability 18:46:20 Sending the terrible calamity of No Ability to Lasty_. 18:46:22 does crawl-ref/source/contrib/sqlite usually take a long time? 18:46:34 -!- Ququman has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:35 Crap, my abilities! 18:46:36 PleasingFungus Hmm, for that goal #2 does it make sense for traps to be hidden? 18:46:46 for goal #1 it does. 18:47:01 no, #2 only really works if traps are visible 18:47:28 since you have to react to them (trick monsters into walking into tele/shaft/net traps, and aforementioned zot positioning tricks) 18:48:04 it's still possible for traps to serve both roles; I'm very fond of shafts, for example. serving one role while hidden, and the other, potentially, once discovered 18:48:06 (Not sure if tricking monsters is really desirable since you want to run accross the level to do it.) 18:48:28 well, you generally can't trick monsters for long after you discover traps, I think; "monster knowledge" 18:48:39 idk exactly how the mechanic works so I can't say 18:48:58 I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. I've learned gnolls all the way across levles to a tele trap before. 18:49:03 but, as with so many things (like monsters picking up weapons!), it can be interesting within the space of a trap 18:49:09 reaverb: did you manage to get more than one to go in? 18:49:17 Yes IIRC 18:49:20 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:22 *within the space of a fight 18:49:23 -!- Ququman_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:49:24 huh 18:49:26 I really have no idea how that works, then 18:49:36 PleasingFungus: My point with this is that maybe traps should be maybe split so they do not serve two purposes, since they conflict. 18:49:45 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:47 err, s/maybe split/split/ 18:50:15 And technically you are encourage to note every square you come across so that you're less likely to be trapped. 18:50:49 PleasingFungus: Also, what do you think of the chance of detecting traps rising with char level. 18:50:56 isn't that already the case 18:51:15 PleasingFungus: What already the case. 18:51:35 doesn't the chance of trap detection already rise with character level? that's how I remember reading it when traps skill was removed. 18:51:54 yes, that's how trap detection works 18:52:01 it replaced the Traps skill 18:52:01 PleasingFungus: What do you think of the mechanic? Would there be any negative reprecussions if it was removed? 18:52:43 I don't see how the char level changes fit either of the good things about traps you mentioned. (I came up with pretty much the same list when thinking about this earlier) 18:53:20 well, one thing is that the types of traps you encounter vary with character level; in particular, zot traps aren't present early on, and become common in zot 18:53:25 Except I also think random startegic hits (randomly getting mutated by a zot trap you did not see, for example) can be good. 18:53:31 so they'd need to have a high detection chance 18:53:40 Yeah I think the function of it is to basically mitigate a high frequency of trap situations 18:54:10 gammafunk: That function could be done by spawning less traps as you go on. 18:54:28 reaverb: now we have to a have a per-branch trap value 18:54:45 I think XL is basically a nice, simple across-the-board thing 18:54:59 and also because "later on" is subjective 18:55:26 gammafunk: well we could also, for example, removing trap detection all together. (and just have "visible" or "invisible" traps) 18:55:33 s/removing/remove/ 18:55:47 that's a different suggestion! 18:56:27 reaverb: well actually that creates the same problem; we'd have to control trap creation by branch 18:56:48 I think XL actually functions as the most effective definition of later on, is the thing 18:56:53 -!- predator217 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:55 better than saying "this branch is later on" 18:57:48 reaverb: What do you hope to gain from either of your suggestions? (Making all or some traps perma-visible) 18:57:59 gammafunk: Removing trap detection was suppose to be an additional + to controlling trap creation by branch. 18:58:05 It'd be easier to have this conversation if you explained what you wanted to gain by these changes 18:58:21 yeah, all I see is added complexity at this point 18:58:41 PleasingFungus: I just don't think traps work well right now, since they have several differant goals tied up into one game object. 18:58:52 suggested reading material re: traps having multiple effects: -The Pit (Sword of the Stars) -Brogue 18:59:00 Patashu: The Pit is the worst roguelike I have ever played 18:59:05 it is god-awful and soul numbing 18:59:08 PleasingFungus: why's that 18:59:12 (I haven't actually played it, just watched it) 18:59:15 it doesn't have the decency to kill you 18:59:20 it just slowly, slowly, slowly grinds you down 18:59:32 with attrition and equipment breakage and ammunition losses 18:59:41 right, it has a lot of that 18:59:41 until finally, ten levels after you've lost the game, it puts you out of your misery 18:59:48 also the fucking crafting system 18:59:56 reaverb: yeah, but saying "traps don't work well generically" by no means suggests a perturbation on how we limit traps by branch 18:59:57 I'm seriously getting mad just remembering the hour & $5 I wasted on it! 19:00:10 I think it'd be the trap effects you'd want to examine 19:00:16 but I'm really not sure I agree 19:00:19 reaverb: I'd actually disagree with that 19:00:25 that traps work poorly 19:00:29 I think traps work pretty well 19:00:41 agh gotta go 19:00:41 fr: if an enemy triggers an alarm trap all the other enemies gang up on it like in ADOM 19:00:46 PleasingFungus: Well we also disagree on mimics which are basically also traps. :D 19:00:47 -!- Hindered has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:00:50 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:51 I'll write up a rant on this later, if you want! 19:00:53 but gotta go now 19:00:59 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140529030207]] 19:01:04 !send PleasingFungus verbosity 19:01:05 Sending verbosity to PleasingFungus. 19:01:11 yeah, mimics are terrible traps (currently) 19:01:17 FR: mimic convokers 'The fountain was a mimic!' 'The fountain begins to recite a word of recall!' 19:01:30 Lmao 19:01:42 mimic sentinels 19:01:52 (a one time-convoke on a delay could actually work well, BTW) 19:01:56 (it's like a summon trap except not awful) 19:01:59 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 19:02:04 or just alarm trap mimics that can be triggered in addition to attacking you 19:02:18 there is already a convoking zot effect iirc 19:02:21 combining alarm traps with something that attacked you would also be interesting 19:02:23 -!- Lasty_ has left ##crawl-dev 19:02:36 gammafunk: idk, saying 'so and so is a zot effect' doesn't mean it's being put to good use 19:02:41 because zot effects are so rare and diluted 19:02:41 Patashu: Zot traps have a convocation effect. 19:02:47 Patashu: You mean a vault sentinel? 19:02:48 gammafunk: dang 19:02:51 most of the time you'll just get blasted with whatever 19:02:54 gammafunk: you beat me to it :( 19:03:05 High Elf speed 19:03:11 !send gammafunk Tengu speed 19:03:11 Sending Tengu speed to gammafunk. 19:03:12 -!- Lasty_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:16 !send gammafunk Spriggan speed 19:03:16 Sending Spriggan speed to gammafunk. 19:03:38 reaverb: if vault sentinels were also trapdoor spiders, sure 19:03:39 Yes another thing which is odd is raw damage traps were removed but not Zot trap damage effects. 19:03:42 Patashu: I think occassionally convoking terrible, late-game monsters is enough 19:03:55 -!- e1999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:58 trapdoor sentinels 19:04:03 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:04:03 reaverb: ok, maybe that's what needs to be looked at, then? 19:04:14 if zot trap effects were always 'interesting' there'd be a lot less to ask for 19:04:26 those were truly raw damage; the zot ones are elemental damage iirc 19:04:39 well, elemental damage doesn't even have interesting effects anymore (no item destruction) 19:04:39 and again zot traps don't only do that 19:04:40 -!- Lasty_ has left ##crawl-dev 19:04:47 gammafunk: Well nothing is a "normal damage type" 19:05:04 nothing? 19:05:22 reaverb: smiting! 19:05:41 * Grunt smites you! Ouch! That really hurt! You die... 19:05:46 well what nothing are we talking about; I guess you could remove the damage, but aren't they actually miscast effects? 19:05:56 yes 19:05:58 throwing in some ordinary damage isn't relaly a problem 19:06:00 -!- Galewind has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:06:01 Yes but Zot traps are special cased somehow? 19:06:08 it is because it dilutes zot trap interestingness 19:06:09 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:13 if most of the time they just do something you don't care about at all 19:06:22 Yes it's like if !mutation occasionaly hist you with dmg. 19:06:29 imagine if half the time a zot trap was really a blade trap 19:06:36 that would have been removed in trap refrorm 19:06:38 this is basically that 19:06:51 I probably works well with monsters walking over zot traps. 19:07:35 imo remove plain miscasts from Zot traps? 19:07:52 plain miscasts from zot traps are long gone 19:08:15 again, the mechanical traps only ever did ordinary damage, that's why they were removed 19:08:50 yes - now finish the job and remove ordinary damage zot trap effects 19:09:01 when zot traps were given their own list of effects the damage effects were cut down especially to mostly just be damage types that had additional effects (item destruction, corrosion) 19:09:11 but as patashu said, those are no longer a thing 19:09:26 so removing the damage effects from zot traps does indeed seem fine 19:09:40 !source spl-miscast.cc:2884 19:09:40 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-miscast.cc;hb=HEAD#l2884 19:09:43 obviously what we need is new!itemDestruction so they can be put back! 19:09:45 Yeah it doesn't matter much 19:09:49 ...that's what I was thinking of when I said "plain miscasts", yeah. 19:09:58 * Grunt gestures. Patashu freezes and shatters! 19:10:05 Occassional damage or not, same difference to me really 19:10:15 grunt: there's a roguelike where that can happen 19:10:38 o_O 19:10:43 well, maybe not 19:10:53 but in the pit (sword of the stars) there's an enemy that can instakill disintegrate you 19:11:00 (how it works is if it hits you, it picks an item in your inventory or it picks you) 19:11:06 -!- Change has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:17 -!- Change is now known as ChangeAj 19:11:21 sounds just like the game we need to be drawing inspiration from 19:11:36 I'm pretty sure nethack has several insta disintegrate enemeies. (Although they are foiled by reflection or magic resistance) 19:11:47 from what i played you play ranged combat but theres no ammo anywhere and your melee is always at 0 uc 19:11:58 Don't forget "A wide-angle disintegration beam hits you!" 19:12:03 "You fry to a crisp." 19:12:06 Patashu: Also I thought you were going to say Spelunky. 19:12:20 everyone knows everyone knows spelunky isn't a roguelike 19:12:24 (it's a roguelite!) 19:12:36 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:47 Not going to get into the endless roguelike definition debate. 19:12:58 me neither 19:14:20 It's... 19:14:22 *glasses* 19:14:24 ...indefinite. 19:14:27 yeah, in any case one difference between zot damage and mechanical damage is that monsters stepping on it triggers the effect, but it's debatable whether that's a desirable thing 19:15:36 As PleasingFungus mentioned, what discourages you from letting a monster step on a Zot Trap is less important than the feact the discouragement exists at all. 19:16:11 you can say that about any effect, so it's not really justification for removing a particular one 19:16:47 gammafunk: That's just a responce to "one difference between zot damage and mechanical damage is that monsters stepping on it triggers the effect," 19:17:29 sure, but it just doesn't seem very relevant; it's more a question of do we like monsters stepping on traps doing damage to the player 19:18:38 if we do remove it, I suppose it's a buff to zot traps, although I'd have to look at the full list of effects 19:18:57 huh, wonder if I've ever even gotten a twister 19:20:10 traps should be auto seen and be a tactical obstruction in combat. even to the point of traps always effecting the player unless x condition is met 19:20:13 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:30 !lg * ikiller=~twister 19:20:30 No games for * (ikiller=~twister). 19:20:44 twister (15v) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 10000 | AC/EV: 0/5 | 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 12wind, 04napalm | XP: 0 | Sz: Large | Int: plant. 19:20:44 %??twister 19:20:48 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:55 !lg * killer=~twister 19:20:56 48. KaramVyathaa the Gusty (L3 VSAE of Qazlal), blasted by a twister (tornado) (summoned by miscasting Flight) on D:2 on 2014-05-25 15:59:32, with 55 points after 3774 turns and 0:21:35. 19:21:05 ChangAj: We already described in the logs why traps being hidden has good effects in some cases. 19:21:06 flight miscast <3 19:21:14 !lg * ckaux=tornado 19:21:15 52. CORNFED the Stinger (L1 FoVM), blasted by a diamond obelisk (tornado) on D:2 (nicolae_qazlal_eye_of_the_storm) on 2014-06-10 04:36:26, with 4 points after 174 turns and 0:02:17. 19:21:19 oh right 19:21:28 !lg * killer=~twister s=br 19:21:29 48 games for * (killer=~twister): 23x D, 20x Abyss, Ossuary, IceCv, Shoals, Lair, Temple 19:21:39 hidden traps are never good please don't joke with yourself. you can't plan for them they are just oh here your fucked. 19:22:10 also hidden monsters 19:22:14 -!- PsyMar has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:23 all monsters located at all times I say 19:22:40 hidden monsters are different because you have tools to deal with them 19:22:44 A sentinel's mark forms on the unseen horror. 19:22:55 name a tool needed to deal with unseen traps 19:23:02 theres 1 19:23:03 its time 19:23:18 traps don't instakill you, you deal with them by your reaction after the trap effect 19:23:26 ^ 19:23:40 thats what you say 19:23:46 but they can kill you 19:24:03 they abyss, damage etc without any tools 19:24:08 its the same thing with unknown brand 19:24:10 occassionally yes, sometimes monsters instakillyou 19:24:15 both are bad mechanics 19:24:22 that take no skill 19:24:23 The only trap effects left that can directly kill you are Zot trap damage effects, and we've basically just concluded that we're not happy with those. 19:24:31 and are very non clear 19:24:45 and a design goal of crawl is to be clear 19:24:45 Is anybody in particular planning to remove those? 19:24:54 as per the crawl philosophy, it's OK to have effects that could theoretically cause you to have an unavoidable death, because if there were no such things the game would be trivial to solve, it would be a 'soft' problem 19:25:11 the thing that makes me strongly dislike traps is that they encourage 1. stepping on as few unique squares as possible, 2. keeping track of which squares have been stepped on 19:25:20 its also crawl philosophy to have clarity in the game 19:25:30 !lg . hells ktyp=trap 19:25:30 both of these are complete opposite of that 19:25:31 1. ShyGuy the Pyromancer (L27 KoCK of Xom), killed by triggering a bolt trap on Geh:2 on 2012-08-02 19:43:39, with 628580 points after 161531 turns and 1d+4:36:30. 19:25:34 my favorite death 19:25:37 -!- rbrrk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:25:52 thats a game quitting death btw 19:26:11 he put in 10 hours of game and unless the trap was visible its bullshit 19:26:12 a game quitting death 19:26:24 I was going to suggest something like only stairs being trapped to address what minmay just said, and moving the Zot Trap avoidance thing to a new feature which is always visible. 19:26:29 I guess no more bolt traps so welcome back ShyGuy 19:26:33 ie a death that will make someone stop playing crawl for days or years 19:26:39 I've died in games where I've put in a lot of time, at least twice to obvious bugs in the game. 19:26:42 the only way I can think of to solve this (which I do think is a very, very big and bad problem) and keep traps at all is to have all traps be revealed from the start 19:26:44 I'm still playing. 19:26:46 yeah, remove instadeath 19:26:51 s/insta// 19:26:55 (problem solved!!!!) 19:26:55 thats my proposed solution minmay 19:27:10 then they are a tactical element 19:27:11 then zot "traps" still make you prevent monsters from stepping on them 19:27:13 instead of bullshit 19:27:18 yes 19:27:20 you understand 19:27:30 its the same with my proposed brand change 19:27:35 and the other trap types don't really do anything to be honest except occasionally shafts (but you can put that effect on a monster spell or something) 19:27:48 well other trap types can effect you too 19:27:56 ie monster steps on them you get shot by dart 19:28:02 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:04 Grunt: One intresting idea: Crawl already doesn't have death. You just lose some progress. This progress just happens to be everything back to D:1. 19:28:16 simple easy but dart trap is weird because that is unclear 19:28:22 I have heard other proposals to get rid of terrain-based traps while keeping "traps" but I have yet to hear one that doesn't either have the same problems, make them completely random penalties, or make them redundant with monster spells 19:28:23 magic traps are more clear 19:28:43 The monster steps on the dart trap. The monster mans the dart trap! A dart hits you! 19:28:51 there you go 19:29:03 and if you made it so that the monster actively used them 19:29:05 crane game trap 19:29:11 they would be even more tactical 19:29:23 but thats a bigger change 19:29:32 and unnecessary to make traps fair 19:29:35 yeah, the not exploring is a fair point, but I think in practice some random shafts or teleports aren't really that problematic 19:29:44 minmay: Do you have a particular problem with traps being completely random penalties? If what's really intresting about traps is how players respond to them I don't. 19:29:59 theres some traps that don't kill you and sure those aren't terrible 19:30:11 but a teleport can get you killed sometimes but its very rare 19:30:21 its still pretty bullshit 19:30:56 honestly crawl has enough rng you don't need bullshit rng 19:31:19 traps are bullshit rng unknown weapon brands are bullshit rng 19:31:31 Can we keep the random opinionating to ##crawl please 19:31:33 reaverb: well it strikes me as wildly inelegant and unnecessary but I suppose it doesn't do anything necessarily bad beyond that 19:31:38 nope 19:31:39 we can't 19:31:48 minmay: Hmm. 19:31:49 well, actually we can 19:31:59 because it should be addressed by developers 19:32:01 not players 19:32:03 thought: make teleport traps cause tele status 19:32:15 I wasn't even mad at that death, and there were things I could maybe have done to avoid id (use regen more). At least when I play roguelikes I've kind of developed the mindset where I'm not surprised when things like that happen. 19:32:20 or maybe because players are developers its both 19:32:26 s/ id/ it/ 19:32:39 reaverb: I mean, there are surely better ways to make crawl harder than randomly draining wand charges every now and then 19:32:49 If you want to talk about game design in this channel, try to do so in a more productive way 19:34:23 reaverb: it's also worth noting that *extremely* few penalties in crawl are unavoidable; the trap redesigns that make them into unavoidable penalties are going to elicit a negative response from the people who consider that valuable 19:34:37 minmay: Hmm. 19:34:44 minmay: Do you actually do anything to deal with minimzing square exploration in practice though? Autoexplore doesn't make it very possible 19:35:02 gammafunk: Not everybody uses autoexplore. 19:35:14 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:28 reaverb: I don't use autoexplore, but autoexplore is the way most people play 19:35:32 gammafunk: autoexplore is not the only way to move in the game 19:35:53 gammafunk: your argument is basically the same as "well you don't HAVE to scum, so we don't need the OOD timer or food" 19:35:53 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:58 ok, I don't think I'm unaware of what autoexplore is 19:36:02 or isn't 19:36:11 you can minimize unique squares and it is quite obviously optimal to do so 19:36:17 at least as far as avoiding traps 19:36:30 minmay: Well things like bad monster placement are unavoidable, although it can be autoplayed later on (same as traps.) I can see why random traps would cause additional negative reaction though. 19:36:34 (and I can think of no disadvantages to doing it, assuming you accomodate other things) 19:36:48 reaverb: there is no monster that drains wand charges when it enters LOS 19:37:03 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:21 No I think the difference is that allowing scumming would have a much more significant effect on the game vs. unseen traps or not 19:37:27 but it is the same principle 19:37:36 It's sort of perfect being the enemy of the good 19:37:45 they both make a low-risk, long real-time behaviour optimal for survival 19:37:53 I see very little difference at the fundamental level 19:38:09 s/low-risk/low-thought 19:38:18 devs already removed 90% of the traps from the game (early game ones) earlier I don't know why it wasn't either taken to its logical conclusion or another different change to traps was implemented 19:38:45 if anything it is a lot more egregious than allowing grinding monsters, because the game itself explicitly calls exploration "tedious" 19:40:18 I still think there's a vast difference in the severity of a scumming problem versus the existance of some optimal movement strats for traps that people probably won't bother to utilize; I suppose pre-identified zot traps only could work, but I'm having a hard time seeing them be effective 19:40:47 it would require a slight change to monser ai 19:40:57 I don't think anybody disagress that unseen traps are bad theoretically, but right now the advantage for scumming with unseen traps is so low it never happens. I don't think this a reason not to address it (somebody could make a lua auto square tracker any day for example). 19:41:01 and zot trap effecting player more often when it sight of trap 19:41:19 there is a large difference in how much they help crawl characters survive, but I see no significant difference in how badly against crawl's design goals they are 19:41:28 gammafunk: What do you mean by "effective"? 19:41:42 reaverb: "would kill players" presumably 19:41:53 meaning they don't do anything 90% of the time 19:41:56 but current and old traps couldn't really do that either 19:42:15 so its either bullshit or inneffective 19:42:49 but you just have to make monsters use traps on players when they can see the player 19:42:50 it was just "you cannot autoexplore at low HP" and later "autoexplore will make you randomly lose some AC/potions/scrolls/wand charges every now and then" 19:43:21 oh and that brief period in 0.12 or whatever where a zot trap could instantly kill you with tree form, I guess, but I consider that an outlier that isn't very relevant 19:43:31 with being able to see traps you can actually make them threatening too 19:43:37 like do major damage 19:43:41 Instant kill with tree form? 19:43:50 (and I don't think "either instantly kills you or has no practical effect" is very interesting) 19:43:54 -!- mong has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:01 become tree, die because you can't move 19:44:04 reaverb: that is what tree form is if there are monsters on the screen 19:44:15 Ah. 19:44:18 and you are at zot trap depth 19:44:22 I use tree form in sprints its cool as heck 19:44:35 also traps in red sonja are dumb and bad 19:44:43 but thats neither here nor there 19:44:55 reaverb: see !tv ptoannng zot 19:45:26 !tv ptoannng zot 19:45:27 1. PTOANNNG, XL27 DgTm, T:140023 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 19:45:47 I don't think "manned traps" would be interesting at all, by the way...it's just some squares on a level that you avoid, there are plenty of those already 19:45:50 ouch 19:45:56 I could forsee always-identified traps becoming a thing if someone took the effect to make these traps function well in practice, but barring that we'll probably keep our imperfect system 19:46:04 s/effect/effort/ 19:46:05 crawl's level generators make bad positions just fine 19:46:24 gammafunk: I think removing traps would be a dramatic improvement over the "imperfect system" 19:46:27 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:29 -!- tabstorm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:59 minmay's solution works fine until someone makes the effort to change traps 19:47:14 gammafunk: So make all traps work like zot trap for example? 19:47:16 really they wouldn't be called traps anymore 19:47:29 "The goblin steps in the shaft trap. You are shafted!" 19:47:29 since current traps do not do anything interesting except for vanishingly rare D:1 shafts, and encourage a very tedious method of exploration 19:47:31 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:33 they'd be more of stationary devices devices 19:47:34 -!- debo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:53 the goblin presses a button. a hole opens up beneath you 19:48:02 crawl is now a saturday morning cartoon 19:48:03 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:07 -!- Zermako has quit [] 19:48:14 and you laugh 19:48:25 and go that was cool 19:48:47 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:58 reaverb: I think it's any significant effort at trap reform will have to involve reworking traps; this wouldn't be a trivial project; as logical as minmay's view is, others find the random fun worth the problems 19:49:13 I mean you could propose to CRD, maybe I'm wrong 19:49:22 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:59 -!- AtomikKrab is now known as krobisdead 19:50:07 Ball Lightnings and Twisters are fine effects correct? 19:50:26 in terms of removing the damage effects? yeah 19:50:29 you get turns to react 19:50:44 delayed traps work too 19:50:45 sure 19:50:52 thats a good solution actually 19:51:09 a trap door opens up beneath you: you can now move away 19:51:29 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 19:53:53 -!- Morik_ has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:54:26 I don't think having traps that do nothing is an improvement over removing traps 19:54:59 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:00 delayed traps is p cool because say a shaft trap you could need blinking or flight to avoid it 19:55:18 instead of just movement 19:55:26 minmay: What is "doing nothing" ? 19:55:30 I don't think having traps that do nothing if you have a certain spell is an improvement over removing traps, either 19:55:38 reaverb: what ChangeAj seems to be proposing 19:55:48 [17:25] minmay the thing that makes me strongly dislike traps is that they encourage 1. stepping on as few unique squares as possible, 2. keeping track of which squares have been stepped on 19:55:52 does anyone in the world actually do this 19:56:07 sincere question 19:56:28 it seems like a theoretical design problem that in practice isn't a big deal 19:56:34 PleasingFungus: I think you'll find an awful lot of people do it on zot:5 19:56:43 interesting 19:56:53 in fact if I found someone who doesn't do it on zot:5 I'd be damn surprised 19:56:57 i dont do it 19:57:01 I'm damn surprised 19:57:02 no but its optimal play and making the tedius play the optimal one isn't good 19:57:12 ChangeAj: I agree with you 19:57:20 that is what I mean by a theoretical design problem: in theory, encouraging that in bad 19:57:21 i dont think i ever think about traps 19:57:21 ever 19:57:30 in practice, I feel like it doesn't encourage people enough for it to be an actual problem in practise 19:57:35 minmay: I'm also bad player enough not to serach Zot:5. 19:57:36 in practice 19:57:47 traps don't do anything most the time 19:57:47 PleasingFungus: but you can personally observe people doing it in practice 19:57:47 The two times I've been to Zot:5. 19:58:03 minmay: I'm not sure I feel strongly about people doing that on zot:5 19:58:14 I think in one area, it's okay for people to be very cautious 19:58:21 a trap has done something to me on zot 5 once: thats when I walked into a zot trap on purpose because i didnt know they triggered once you discovered them 19:58:22 goalposts ----------------------------------------------------------------------> goalposts 19:58:28 especially if it's not tedious to keep trap of where you are 19:58:34 minmay: well, traps exist across the game 19:58:38 If people really are doing this on Zot:5 than that makes it significantly more of an issue. 19:58:40 so if we're talking about "problems with traps" 19:58:45 that implies we're talking about a game-wide problem 19:58:51 see saying something is irrelevant means it should be removed right 19:58:55 because its irrelevant 19:58:56 whereas, at most, we seem to be here discussing a phenomenon about zot:5 traps 19:59:04 it is a game-wide problem 19:59:07 ChangeAj: I'd disagree with tabstorm that traps are irrelevant! 19:59:19 otherwise, I'd support removing them :) 19:59:22 see I disagree too but thats what he said 19:59:23 I only gave zot:5 as an example where it is particularly important 19:59:29 if you get zot trapped something bad can happen sometimes 19:59:39 traps are unimportant until you're facing a brimstone fiend in swamp:5 19:59:41 minmay: do people actually keep track of where they step in non-zot-5 reas? 19:59:45 i cant recall a time when a trap has majorly influenced my game play 19:59:48 Yeah I don't think the issue is "do they ever have an effect", they certainly do 19:59:50 tabstorm: have you ever been shafted 20:00:02 like one or 2 times 20:00:05 huh 20:00:06 for 1 floor 20:00:12 weird 20:00:17 -!- negatendo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:00:18 shafts don't do anything unless you get dropped into sigmund and 2 orc priests before you have blink id'd 20:00:24 it only matters in super early game 20:00:29 which is fucking rare as shit 20:00:55 you shoudlnt take my word for it thouguh 20:00:59 but they also just slightly vary the gameplay which is good 20:01:02 i learn about all kinds of optimal things that people apparently do 20:01:05 PleasingFungus: ...how many places do they need to do it before you consider it a problem? 20:01:18 i learned yesterday that people pickup crossbows and throw them into lava 20:01:20 gammafunk: I cannot recall any occasion where traps have had an effect on my games since the T&D removal 20:01:23 i never knew that was a think 20:01:26 minmay: not very many. zot:5 alone is a little worrying. 20:01:42 k heres an interesting thing if 90% of the floor was covered in traps how would that effect your gameplay 20:01:57 then you'd be forced to play optimally 20:02:09 and are traps bullshit then 20:02:17 minmay: Well, I got shafted 2-3 floors in recent games in D, landed next to not very good things. It certainly created nasty situations I had to deal with 20:02:17 -!- gnum has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:31 so, you're saying that we shouldn't design areas that are 90% covered in traps, because the game breaks down then. I'd agree: that would be a very bad design! 20:02:47 but I'm not convinced that requires us to change the design of the game in areas that aren't 90% covered in traps 20:02:48 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:49 gammafunk: I don't find shafting to be dangerous unless it happens on d:1 or possibly d:2 and they are incredibly rare there 20:03:31 perhaps if shafts sent you down 6 or 10 levels I would consider them significantly dangerous in D 20:03:37 well I wouldn't claim that even 80% of shafts are a big deal, maybe 5% 20:03:39 minmay: I wonder if people play in the way you described in tomb, particularly tomb:2? (which tends to be the trappiest.) possibly changes could be made there - that seems like a place that it'd be much more annoying to be cautious in.... 20:03:45 no I'm implying that if you were extremely unlucky traps are p bad 20:03:49 PleasingFungus: yes, I certainly do that in tomb 20:03:52 traps are useful i tomb 2 though 20:03:59 to skip tomb:1 20:04:01 ChangeAj: so's missing 10 times in a row in a fight, for example 20:04:07 er wouldn't claim that even 20%, inverted math there 20:04:07 or taking a few max-damage hits in a row 20:04:16 yup but thats something you actively choose to partake in 20:04:19 uh 20:04:29 what 20:04:32 you don't choose to be hit by a trap 20:04:37 uhhh 20:04:38 it just happens in regular gameplay 20:04:43 you have to move in crawl to win 20:04:46 PleasingFungus: who are you talking to? 20:04:49 its impossible otherwise 20:04:51 gammafunk: ChangeAj 20:04:57 oh, I didn't see it 20:05:01 since... 20:05:02 you don't have to kill every monster 20:05:04 ha 20:05:10 you can technically not hit things 20:05:12 its possible 20:05:15 but very hard 20:05:17 ChangeAj: can you technically not be hit 20:05:25 or be attacked, even 20:05:30 probably, technically 20:05:32 I've played games with sub 50 melee attacks 20:05:42 this is like, i'm a cop arresting a guy for beating a puppy with a crowbar, but there's a clown that keeps jumping in front of me and honking his clown horn at the guy, and distracting both of us 20:05:44 yeah this isn't going anywhere 20:05:54 minmay: who's the puppy in this analogy? 20:05:57 yes 20:06:00 PleasingFungus: crawl 20:06:02 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:03 rip 20:06:05 sorry 20:06:08 I got off track 20:06:26 gammafunk: you can't guarantee that any given element in a game like crawl will be interesting; most fights aren't that dangerous, for example. it's one of the pitfalls of random generation across a long game 20:06:30 similarly, traps 20:06:38 all you can ask for is that they have a decent chance of being interesting some of the time 20:06:53 yes but you can try to make sure those fights and traps aren't bullshit 20:07:00 which, I think, is a goal they've reached (and I recognize that some (minmay) disagree!) 20:07:17 ChangeAj: that's really not a useful phrase to throw around. what is "bullshit". what does it mean 20:07:18 which is why early game traps were removed etc 20:07:19 yeah, I can live with that as the current situation, altough I do recognize that some form of pre-ided traps would be better 20:07:36 if you have traps wh not have them be useful as tactical tools to the player like brogue for instance 20:07:43 I generally mean you can't plan for them and you can't change what they've done to you afterwards 20:07:44 or is that anathema to the design doc 20:07:46 tabstorm: they are 20:07:58 tele & shafts & nets and I forget what other traps are around 20:07:58 how? 20:08:03 tabstorm: sorry if you don't zot-trap summon twisters to get the sweet tornado damage 20:08:08 because you can't plan to step on an unseen trap and you just have to deal with it after 20:08:16 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:18 (and zot traps are tactically interesting as being terrain you want to keep monsters away from, of course) 20:08:19 well, ok 20:08:24 (which is different from normal traps) 20:08:28 tabstorm: Traps both can already be used as tools to break up monsters/escape and I believe this is a bad thing. 20:08:39 Since you can run across the level to get to the trap. 20:08:39 because... 20:08:49 you can energy scum it faster probably 20:08:56 plus 20:09:03 if you got an enemy that you need to trap 20:09:06 you already made an error 20:09:07 probably 20:09:16 if its actually feasible to get it across the map 20:09:20 giving the player more options isn't bad 20:09:30 giving the player optimal but tedious options is bad 20:09:32 brogue traps are a good example of the exact worst possible direction for dcss traps to go, imo 20:09:46 what does brogue do 20:09:50 what's the short summary of how they operate? 20:09:55 there is stuff like gas, fire, etc 20:10:01 and you can use them to kill enemies 20:10:02 for instance 20:10:05 -!- ckyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:07 they also make paralysis clouds 20:10:09 like cloud generators? 20:10:16 (in crawl) 20:10:25 they strongly promote searching everywhere 20:10:36 and you lure monsters across levels to them, yes 20:11:09 i sort of like the idea of using them to deal with a bad monster but the searching makes the game not playable for me 20:11:32 Hmm, how does the famous Brogue food clock interact with its traps. 20:12:00 not very much, you probably won't drag something back to a trap on level 1 but that's about it 20:12:01 you spend food searching for traps 20:12:07 because you do 20:12:09 walk s walk s walk s 20:12:27 that much is true yes 20:12:31 that sounds unpleasant 20:12:38 it is why i dont play it 20:12:41 obviously the right way to fix minmay's problem is to make traps spawn over time 20:12:43 I remember doing that in angband 20:12:52 i'm not sure whether i'm kidding 20:12:54 s s s s s 20:12:54 webs, the best feature 20:12:56 wheals: OOD trap spawns 20:12:57 wheals: neither am I! 20:13:06 (you do know that webs already do that right) 20:13:06 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13:08 they do? 20:13:09 did 20:13:11 o 20:13:16 wait what 20:13:20 thats what traps are right now in crawl too but they just aren't a big enough threat to deal with that way 20:13:22 %git :/web 20:13:24 07PleasingFungus02 * 0.15-a0-1493-g64ebc59: Tidy up some web/net behaviour 10(3 days ago, 5 files, 35+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=64ebc5910fab 20:13:37 ie optimal play with traps is moving back and forth on two squares right? 20:13:39 ugh, search gives all webtiles 20:13:49 or does it just try to see that trap once 20:13:49 PleasingFungus: That change was a while back, probably not going to find it easily. 20:13:57 %git b0ee51420f310e463707fb 20:13:57 07MarvinPA02 * 0.14-a0-331-gb0ee514: Don't place additional webs over time in Spider 10(8 months ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0ee51420f31 20:14:06 you underestimate me 20:14:06 haha, that was a thing? 20:14:12 truly terrible 20:14:16 *more* webs in spider 20:14:27 I remember that holy shit that was a lot of webs 20:14:32 well, I don't know about spiderwebs, but traps appearing over time would be... hm. what are the downsides 20:14:41 more traps 20:14:44 that's a downside 20:14:45 ...have you played spider 20:14:51 it'd be interesting to have extra shaft traps on the orb run 20:14:56 be really mean too 20:15:01 This is kind of like that spam sketch from Monty Python 20:15:04 ascension kit: rf, flight 20:15:05 PleasingFungus, what happened in #8613 20:15:11 id be interested in avoiding interest on the orb run 20:15:12 gammafunk: does the word "trap" no longer look like a word to you 20:15:19 wheals: is that lightning scales 20:15:22 yes 20:15:26 ??devteam[6 20:15:26 devteam[6/15]: sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up 20:15:30 zot traps spawning randomly around you with the orb please 20:15:31 mmm 20:15:37 golthoon is super passive aggressive 20:15:41 and weird 20:15:41 you can see this in everything he posts 20:15:43 yes 20:15:45 imho ban him 20:15:53 he's like xuaxua but --verbose mode 20:15:55 whats a golthoon 20:16:00 is that a new tavern poster 20:16:00 tabstorm: mantis reporter 20:16:02 o 20:16:13 !bug 8613 20:16:13 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8613 20:16:22 dead creatures revived as spectrals have hidden attributes (eg, spellsets) 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8697 by petzl 20:16:22 -!- Farcaster has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:16:25 I deleted his comment & re-closed the ticket 20:16:28 Hmm, maybe statuses like Conf should be removed from Zot traps too, since they can also be "5"d off. 20:16:48 simmarine, make shafts have whomps so they push you down even with flight 20:16:50 duh 20:16:51 reaverb: zot traps have both tactical and strategic effects 20:16:54 they also do damage, iirc 20:17:05 I don't think it's a problem that they do this, since it can come up during combat 20:17:08 when enemies step on the trap 20:17:10 reaverb just wants to buff mummies 20:17:14 and confusion is certainly relevant then! 20:17:15 also 20:17:18 !lg . zot 20:17:19 5. wheals the Petrodigitator (L24 DEVM of Sif Muna), mangled by a moth of wrath on Zot:1 on 2014-05-21 13:50:48, with 546647 points after 109705 turns and 4:15:49. 20:17:20 PleasingFungus: Well I'm removing dmg because everybody agreed zot traps doing dmg was bad. 20:17:23 o 20:17:25 really 20:17:28 err, not everybody obviously. 20:17:29 that was a good zot trap death 20:17:32 !lg . zot x=status 20:17:33 5. [status=lethally poisoned,petrified] wheals the Petrodigitator (L24 DEVM of Sif Muna), mangled by a moth of wrath on Zot:1 on 2014-05-21 13:50:48, with 546647 points after 109705 turns and 4:15:49. 20:17:37 But everybody in the channel like a hour ago. 20:17:41 wheals: ....5 zot deaths 20:17:42 Err, nobody object. 20:17:44 -!- krobisdead has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:47 objected. 20:17:50 let me look through the logs 20:18:06 Should add a prompt if I try to mention "everybody" to my IRC rc file. 20:18:13 all of my zot deaths are pretty hilarious IMO 20:18:16 (file does not actually exist) 20:18:38 well, the thing is, people (patashu) compared them to blade traps 20:18:43 reaverb: a prompt? 20:18:46 but blade traps don't hit you when monsters step on them 20:18:48 berserk orb guardian, oof with no rf, petrified deep elf, etc. 20:18:54 but i'll be quiet 20:19:12 gammafunk: It was a joke, like crawl players add prompts before they do potentially stupid things. 20:19:19 oh, haha 20:19:20 the problem with the old damage traps was that they weren't relevant, because you'd so rarely step on them in combat; it's much more likely that you *or someone else* will step on a zot trap in combat, since there are more actors involved, and some of them aren't avoiding the trap if seen! 20:19:31 so tbh I don't think there's a problem with zot traps having damage effects 20:19:34 or other tactical effects 20:20:29 also, reaverb, it looks like gammafunk was disagreeing with you 20:20:33 right before I got into the channel 20:20:36 I really want to see what these mantis notes said 20:20:42 -!- Moanerette has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:20:42 yeah, me too 20:20:42 minmay: the one I deleted? 20:20:53 gammafunk: Oh, sorry. 20:20:55 yes 20:21:07 minmay, they just said ??devteam[6 20:21:09 i think 20:21:11 the note was literally "http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#devteam[6] ?" 20:21:16 Well, I made the same point that you just made about them being different, yes, but I'm not sure it's very important that they do or don't do damage; I'm fine either way 20:21:34 ??devteam[6 20:21:34 devteam[6/15]: sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up 20:21:50 well that's kind of a let-down 20:21:53 !learn e devteam[6] s/ // 20:21:53 devteam[6/15]: sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up 20:21:55 er 20:21:57 yeah it's just lame passive-aggressiveness 20:22:00 boring 20:22:02 !learn e devteam[6] s/x devteam[6/15]: sadly that bug is literally impossible to fix by which i mean i tried like once and then gave up 20:22:06 ??devteam[15] 20:22:07 devteam[15/15]: They rather get their substitute for intellectual satisfaction from not quite understanding what they are doing in their daring irresponsibility and from the subsequent excitement of chasing the bugs they should not have introduced in the first place. –E. Dijkstra 20:22:13 PleasingFungus: Do you see a particular advantage to Zot traps having dmg? 20:22:21 ??zermako 20:22:21 zermako[1/27]: FUCK WORMS 20:22:25 ??zermako[27 20:22:25 zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than gammafunk 20:22:27 increased relevance within the space of a fight 20:22:30 !learn del zermako[27] 20:22:30 Deleted zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than $nick 20:22:34 whaaaa 20:22:34 oh 20:22:35 um 20:22:35 ahahah 20:22:36 you monster 20:22:37 sorry 20:22:51 ?/$nick 20:22:52 No matches. 20:22:56 !learn add zermako[27] Still a better player than $nick 20:22:56 zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than $nick 20:22:57 ?/\$nick 20:22:57 Matching entries (7): :beh:[15] | harold[2] | joke[21] | listgame_examples[4] | test[44] | who_am_i[1] | zermako[27] 20:23:07 do you have to escape nick for that to work 20:23:11 ??listgame_examples[4] 20:23:11 listgame examples[4/5]: Whose ghosts did I kill? "!lm . s=ghost". Whose ghosts killed me? "!lg . ckiller=player_ghost s=killer". Who killed my ghosts? "!lm * ghost=wheals s=name". Who did my ghosts kill? "!gkills" or "!lg * killer=~wheals'*ghost s=name". 20:23:12 the $nick I mean 20:23:15 gammafunk: yes that creeped me out a bit the first time I saw it too. 20:23:16 oh man, joke[21 wa smine 20:23:19 ??zermako[27 20:23:19 zermako[27/27]: Still a better player than reaverb 20:23:22 ??joke[21 20:23:22 joke[21/27]: wheals 20:23:25 nice 20:23:27 ty 20:23:29 reaverb: I literally thought to myself, "notcluie added that" 20:23:37 Ha. 20:23:39 literally 20:23:39 rip notcluie 20:24:03 btw heres a commit about zot traps with some relevant stuff re the damage effects 20:24:03 ripip 20:24:06 %git 149ef16daee6 20:24:06 07elliptic02 * 0.13-a0-636-g149ef16: Hand-pick Zot trap effects. 10(1 year, 1 month ago, 2 files, 244+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=149ef16daee6 20:24:28 oh, I didn't even know they were separated out in that way. neat 20:24:35 hrm, explosions is a good point 20:24:52 Basil would approve 20:25:21 I remember that commit, and god it was a year ago wasn't it 20:25:49 one zot trap/hell effect that I would fine with being removed is the malign gateway one 20:25:51 since that is never relevant 20:25:58 What am I doing with my life, losing arguments in irc over "Zot traps" 20:26:01 you just........ walk away 20:26:04 gammafunk: rip 20:26:19 Should summon multiple malgin gateways. 20:26:29 not the tentacle?! 20:26:29 reaverb: then you walk away from all of them 20:26:35 also: the dungeon can't support more than one!!!! 20:26:36 more seriously, malgin gateway tenactles aren't fast? 20:26:39 chained malign gateway 20:26:43 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:26:47 ??malgin gateway 20:26:48 malgin gateway ~ malign gateway[1/3]: Summons a portal through which an eldritch tentacle emerges. Depending on spell power, it will be friendly for a number of turns, before turning hostile, or the portal closes and it is severed, whichever happens first (either way, it will turn hostile). Level 7 Summ/Tloc found in the Grand Grimoire. 1/3 chance of draining a point of int. 20:26:48 they have finite move range 20:26:49 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 20:26:50 eldritch chomp 20:26:53 but they are fast 20:27:01 eldritch tentacle (04w) | Spd: 12 (07stationary) | HD: 16 | HP: 99-140 | AC/EV: 13/0 | Dam: 3009(chaos), 4009(chaos) | 11non-living, amphibious, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 11silver | XP: 2288 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 20:27:01 %??eldritch_tentacle 20:27:01 also take a turn or two to come out 20:27:08 spd 12 isn't fast 20:27:10 let's be real 20:27:16 that's like... quokka 20:27:17 Hmm, does it work as a monster spell either? 20:27:23 wolf spider (16s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 11 | HP: 41-69 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 25, 1508(poison:22-44) | web sense | Res: 06magic(29) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 567 | Sz: Medium | Int: insect. 20:27:23 %??wolf_spider 20:27:28 monster spell maybe. not sure 20:27:31 haven't seen it cast by a monster 20:27:33 that I recall 20:27:33 well, I guess you could increase their speed 20:27:36 mnoleg sure is dangerous 20:27:39 gammafunk: player spell buff!!! 20:27:45 that spell is still not good 20:27:48 o 20:27:50 and speed 15 wouldn't change it 20:27:50 :( 20:27:51 it's cool though 20:27:56 yeah making them faster might work 20:27:58 yes, cool, but just very impractical 20:28:08 I don't think I've ever cast it 20:28:09 monster malign gateway is like a cantrip that makes them vulnerable to silver 20:28:17 heh 20:28:29 (i'm not even sure it does that) 20:28:40 minmay: opinion on tentacle buff? (prediction: your opinion is "just remove it") 20:28:44 i think mnoleg is vulnerable to silver because of AF_MUTATE, maybe 20:28:44 bonus points if you have mnoleg abyss himself 20:28:52 goblin (15g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 4 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1 | Sp: malign gateway | Sz: small | Int: normal. 20:28:52 %??goblin spells:malign_gateway 20:28:56 oh guess it works 20:29:15 maybe gateway could just be level 7? 20:29:29 it is level 7 20:29:35 haha 20:29:36 oh right, two-school 20:29:43 So should I push a commit to remove just damage effects from zot traps? (Including explosions) 20:29:44 I wonder if malign gateway would be a fun spell to put on a pre-extended unique? maybe if it was good 20:29:48 reaverb: no 20:29:51 PleasingFungus: the tentacle could be HD 100 with fire storm and still be harmless because it takes 5 years to appear 20:29:53 PleasingFungus: like mnoleg? 20:29:58 gammafunk, pre 20:30:02 oh pre-extended 20:30:03 no not really 20:30:09 minmay: yeah pretty much 20:30:10 well mnoleg is kind of pre-extended i guess 20:30:14 in that he's shit 20:30:20 in terms of difficulty 20:30:31 move Mnoleg to depths 20:30:33 problem solved 20:30:44 move pan gates to elf and make mnoleg guard them 20:30:50 like geryon 20:30:52 but outside the gate 20:30:58 btw devwiki has discussion re traps and problems of allowing tracking of squares you've stepped on etc from 4 years ago or something 20:31:05 including a proposal by minmay! 20:31:08 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:11 oh, what was the proposal? 20:31:13 MarvinPA: I'm surprised xuaxua didn't delete all of it 20:31:15 that's not "remove traps"? 20:31:19 (I am totally unsurprised that this is an old discussion) 20:31:24 PleasingFungus: make all traps known 20:31:27 (crawl dev chat seems to always go in circles...) 20:31:33 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps#minmay_s_radical_proposal 20:31:39 epic title 20:31:40 (and also make shaft a monster spell, I think I proposed possibly replacing banishment with it too) 20:31:48 PleasingFungus: Sometimes we make progress (like removing item destruction) 20:32:12 also still relevant from that: giving tele traps limited charges 20:32:14 or removing the traps & doors skill 20:32:17 monster shaft spell sounds fun 20:32:25 yeah it's funny that like 90% of your first point is done 20:32:52 minmay: are you still volunteering to revise vaults? :) 20:32:53 Does trap disarming still exist? 20:33:02 I won't think so. 20:33:08 MarvinPA: I think dpeg has mistakenly told people that already happened like 5 or 6 times by now 20:33:26 technically it is a thing that exists! 20:33:30 just only in zotdef 20:33:32 haha 20:33:36 zotdef...... 20:33:43 but that'd ruin the sword in the stone :( 20:33:55 you can disarm webs still 20:33:58 afaik 20:34:00 huh 20:34:01 Make the last charge banish you. 20:34:02 what key? 20:34:02 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11641 20:34:15 minmay: imo that vault should just be removed 20:34:23 I saw someone run into it the other day and it's like 20:34:24 why 20:34:26 it's so bad in every way 20:34:28 I agree 20:34:32 glass that fucks with autoexplore 20:34:37 inviting terrible traps 20:34:39 etc 20:34:39 well, all glass does that 20:34:46 that one's especially obnoxious, though 20:35:04 anyway i'm sure it's possible to eg make randomly placed teleporters have limited charges and vault-placed ones not (also vaults that place teleporters and rely on them having infinite charges are maybe not great anyway in a lot of cases) 20:35:24 -!- Zifmia has quit [] 20:35:37 ...minmay, that's your vault 20:35:41 yes 20:35:42 I know 20:35:47 the sins of a misspent youth? 20:35:47 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:35:53 yes 20:35:56 rip 20:36:05 -!- Frank2368 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:36:09 (I'd remove just about all of those if it were up to me) 20:36:17 MarvinPA: is there a good reason to have limited teleporter charges? 20:36:21 I didn't see that explained 20:36:27 ug, finally, someone to blame for that terrible ecu. temple vault 20:36:55 If nobody likes it why not just remove it. 20:36:59 it involved a spiral so I just assumed grunt made it, I think 20:37:07 well gammafunk != everyone 20:37:09 reaverb: writing the commit message now 20:37:21 or are we talking sword in the stone 20:37:28 * reaverb wants to say PleasingFungus: no 20:37:38 !send reaverb no 20:37:38 Sending no to reaverb. 20:38:08 gammafunk: talking about the spiral temple entrance 20:38:26 oh, to prevent luring abuse. I see 20:38:32 PleasingFungus: yes, making it impossible to kite monsters to them endlessly 20:38:33 (re tele charges) 20:38:47 I guess that'd be liveable 20:38:54 sword in the stone would still be in a stone 20:39:00 Yes I like sword in the stone, although I'd remove it if it was better for other systems. 20:39:20 How many charges would tele traps have? 1? 3? 20:39:34 is there a reason to have more than one charge? 20:39:34 spectrina lured a deep troll earth mage to break sword in the stone, so there's no further pinnacle to be reached there 20:40:03 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1550-g3fe8390: Absolve minmay of his temple-vault-making sins 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3fe8390d1aa8 20:40:13 some arbitrary small number 20:40:18 -!- jeffro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:31 yeah, maybe random2(4)? 20:40:36 but why more than one? 20:40:41 er 1+ random2(3) I guess 20:40:42 it seems to me that it just encourages, again, luring behaviour 20:40:43 probably not random2(4) 20:40:46 Yes Just 1 would seem fine. 20:41:00 without adding anything interesting - the fun of them comes when they teleport (you or one unfortunate enemy) 20:41:03 they don't really need to stick around after that 20:41:04 gammafunk: I don't see why to randomize. Stick the number in the descript if it's a spoiler. 20:41:31 I'm not sure, is it good that the player knows how many uses the trap has? 20:41:33 should alarm traps have random charges? or shafts? 20:41:37 PleasingFungus: Could have mentioned which vault it is in the commit message. :( 20:41:39 just give them one use 20:41:44 reaverb: oops 20:41:47 PleasingFungus shafts are already 1 use. 20:41:50 I forgot vaults had name 20:41:53 well tele traps aren't teh same as shaft traps, etc 20:42:00 they really are very similar to shaft traps 20:42:08 and alarm traps can't be used on monsters. 20:42:16 well I consider changing levels and changing position within level to be rather different 20:42:17 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:28 I guess maybe mechanical traps. (Still in vaults I think?) 20:42:37 but yeah I'm not seriously griping here 20:43:00 if we're going to do this, make them one charge. there's no good reason to give them more than one. 20:43:07 or at least no one has yet suggested... any reason at all! 20:44:05 possibly 1 charge tele traps would end up getting triggered by some random monster out of los and never doing anything 20:44:16 so, spawn more tele traps 20:44:24 Oh, KoboldLord brought up bone dragons as boring removable monsters on the Tavern. Hmm. 20:44:27 unknown monster: "bone dragon." 20:44:27 %??bone dragon. 20:44:31 bone dragon (15D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 153-205 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Dam: 30, 20, 2007(trample) | 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3694 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal. 20:44:31 %??bone dragon 20:44:36 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:41 well, that's not a trivial removal 20:44:53 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45:01 Oh yes Yred. 20:45:08 or I guess you could do a thing where tele traps only become dischargeable once the player sees them (though not necessarily while in their LOS?) 20:45:14 PleasingFungus: yeah, but then you read ?fog 20:45:23 er 20:45:29 dischargaeable once seen 20:45:41 yes, specifically to avoid weird things like that 20:46:17 -!- MiracleKinacle has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:25 since there's no "zot" noise, it probably wouldn't be too abusable... I guess maybe in cases where you could see the smoke from a monster disappearing (do tele traps do that?) 20:46:25 dischargeable only when seen could work I suppose 20:46:55 -!- MiracleKinacle has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:13 I guess also make them revealed if you see tele smoke above them, to avoid that abuse 20:47:18 not sure how the code for that would work 20:47:48 -!- MiracleKinacle has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:25 -!- HamsterSaurusMex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:49:03 pleasingfungus: you'd need a new flag on every cloud (or every trap) (or some equivalent) 20:49:51 or you could just make them always discharge and make them a little more common, which avoids weird edge cases like that & other things I haven't yet thought of. 20:50:21 PleasingFungus: Suprsied you necro'd a Tavern thread just for thanks. :D 20:50:22 didn't teleport traps used to have limited charges? not sure why that got removed since they seem pretty scummable atm (I can lure as many enemies onto a tele trap as I feel like) 20:50:35 Patashu: That was never a thing. 20:50:36 reaverb: I forgot thanks were a thing 20:50:47 Although it's been suggested forever. 20:50:48 I'm used to other, thankless forums 20:50:51 reaverb: wait what 20:50:54 Patashu: it's a thing in zotdef 20:50:57 but not in crawl 20:50:57 what game's tele traps am I thinking of then 20:50:59 HMMM 20:51:25 I'm going to go ahead and implement this 20:51:39 the 'infinite charges until you see it' variant? 20:51:40 the vault changes will be a bitch... 20:51:44 Patashu: no, the one-shot version 20:51:49 I mean, the simpler one 20:51:50 PleasingFungus: Thanks. 20:52:13 oh, I don't like 1 charge teleport traps as much... 20:52:15 since I don't want weird "you know it's there but haven't seen it & can abuse it in questionable ways" effect 20:52:15 feels like the fun would be over too soon 20:52:24 uh 20:52:28 how do you interact with tele traps 20:52:38 or how were you planning to, in the proposed other version 20:52:41 lure a monster onto it 20:52:48 and sometimes jump onto it deliberately 20:52:51 those are the main ways I know of 20:52:52 in real crawl? 20:52:54 you can still do both of those 20:52:57 just, only once 20:53:01 yes, in real crawl 20:53:04 only in tomb 2 do i interact with them 20:53:11 voluntarily 20:53:13 tabstorm: nemelex/warpwright is fun 20:53:22 I have really lured monsters onto real teleport traps in real crawl (for real) (Really) 20:53:23 I guess this is a nerf? or are those temporary 20:53:25 nemelex is too much work for me :( 20:53:27 haha 20:53:37 i just want my god to make me better and get out of my way 20:53:42 nems too fiddly 20:53:42 PleasingFungus: I don't think warpwright is temporary, not sure. 20:53:49 it's still good 20:54:02 okay, only about two dozen teleport trap vaults. not that bad 20:54:04 maybe three dozen 20:54:08 half a screen 20:54:12 zot:5 tele traps are v. useful for both purposes, probably not very useful for jumping into with only 1 charge 20:54:21 since they are pretty likely to be triggered by a monster 20:54:29 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:41 hm. I wonder if this will break meatsprint 20:54:58 pleasingfungus: meatsprint uses teleport traps? 20:54:58 what does meatspring do with tele traps? 20:55:03 well like i said there should probably be some way to still place infinite charge tele traps 20:55:07 yeah 20:55:10 there clearly needs to be 20:55:15 maybe as a separate type 20:55:18 i've never used one but i can see how you would use it 20:55:31 just make perma-tele-traps not spawn normally (or in most vaults) 20:55:32 usually they just end up placing mons on my return route 20:56:11 also, making teleport traps non-permanent in zot:5 would make the feel of zot:5 a lot different 20:56:17 (at least whenever I do it shit is porting all over the level constantly) 20:57:19 yeah I can also make an exception there, maybe 20:57:22 like for mechanical traps 20:57:37 exceptions.......... 20:57:38 Mummy dragons.. Hehe. 20:57:52 wot 20:58:18 The mummy dragon breathes ghostly flames! 20:58:26 (I have become bcadren) 20:58:28 it means you never get zot:5 with both lungs blocked by tele traps 20:58:48 thats very annoying 20:58:56 when you sit and cast blink 20 times 20:59:02 to get over the trap 20:59:35 its more interesting when leaving a lung than entering 20:59:52 too much interest for me man 21:00:00 well technically you could just enter the lung that way 21:00:05 except you wouldn't 21:00:14 im only interested in getting the orb out at that point, its enough interest for me 21:00:15 because teleporting into a filled lung is suicide for most characters 21:00:21 i cant handle the extra interest of blinking 21:00:34 i mean more like 21:00:38 you enter a lung and see an oof 21:00:45 now you want to back out, do you risk the tele 21:01:04 first you'd probably want to kill said oof 21:01:56 probably id just go back to the entryway and fog 21:02:08 then use heals if its needed 21:02:40 killing the oof might involve moving forward, or making noise in a somewhat full lung 21:02:46 so maybe i want to fight it somewhere else 21:02:53 Bloaxor: I walked onto a tele trap to get into a lung once. landed literally on the orb 21:02:55 i dont actually feel strongly here, but its a change for sure 21:03:02 PleasingFungus: Oh, did you catch the begining of the Miscast class for crawlcode 21:03:03 ? 21:03:21 PleasingFungus: was being surrounded by orb guardians fun 21:03:32 -!- tksquared has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:33 reaverb: nope 21:03:39 Bloaxor: it was the best 21:03:39 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:03:42 I should dig up that tv 21:03:48 if only I knew the syntax 21:04:35 ??hilarious quits[3] 21:04:35 hilarious quits[3/8]: !tv nht zot:5 ktyp=quitting 1 21:04:46 !source spl-miscast.cc 21:04:47 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-miscast.cc;hb=HEAD 21:05:38 !source spl-miscast.cc:57 21:05:38 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/spl-miscast.cc;hb=HEAD#l57 21:05:41 See there. 21:05:57 aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaa AAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 21:06:20 -!- GiantOwl is now known as Kalir 21:06:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 21:06:33 -!- yuastnav has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:06:45 reaverb: needs more arguments, imo 21:06:52 let's start at two dozen and go from there 21:07:11 Vasek (L24 CeWr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 212: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Depths:3) 21:07:17 sneak in a no_raw_dmg argument. 21:07:32 Which triggers if you step on a zot trap. 21:07:34 the best part of looking at this is knowing: it is probably better than whatever it replaced 21:07:38 or, actually 21:07:42 But not when monsters use it against you. 21:07:43 it probably *was* better 21:07:45 and then got bloated with args 21:08:13 we need a rule like if something has 5 args you can't add any more. 21:08:39 reaverb: have you seen "ghosts" 21:08:41 the variable 21:09:15 No. 21:09:24 !file tags.cc 21:09:27 !source tags.cc 21:09:27 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/tags.cc;hb=HEAD 21:09:39 !cmd !file !source 21:09:41 Defined command: !file => !source 21:09:45 ty :) 21:09:51 anyway, search around in there, you can find it used 21:09:53 ("ghosts") 21:09:57 but where does it come from? 21:10:00 it's a mystery! 21:10:02 a spooky mystery. 21:10:04 oooooo.... 21:10:05 global. 21:10:17 spoilers! 21:10:20 ghost_demon !! 21:10:26 i am spooked 21:10:35 anyway that's probably on the list of "things I need to fix so I can do something else" 21:10:38 just like the ghost files thing 21:11:03 If you let doing the things you're suppose to do hold you back you won't get anything done :D 21:11:32 ...or something like that. 21:11:36 you're right 21:11:39 Yeah ghosts is a global declared in ghost.cc 21:11:41 vector ghosts; 21:11:44 who needs neat, future-proof code 21:11:53 That was a joke. 21:11:55 life is today 21:12:14 Mostly because I have a dozen branches of things I should finish but haven't. 21:13:19 same....... 21:13:24 http://dungeoncrawl.org/?c.h best page 21:13:29 !send reaverb boulders 21:13:29 Sending boulders to reaverb. 21:13:41 Bloaxor: good & correct 21:13:43 !send PleasingFungus mutation_def 21:13:43 Sending mutation_def to PleasingFungus. 21:13:49 ? 21:14:00 was this the thing about separating out innate muts 21:14:07 You are missing the most important part: "Instructions on how to fix the codebase to come... " 21:14:15 Bloaxor: I didn't miss it :) 21:14:21 Remember that mutation-data.h comment you removed and everybody objected to the removal. 21:14:24 the joke is that THEY NEVER CAME :^)))) 21:14:42 and I said I would move the definition but I would need to change two cases it's used outside mutation.cc .. 21:15:13 (btw can I claim the right to change Zot traps since I'm fixing your mistake there <_< >_> ) 21:15:56 but I didn't make a mistake! 21:15:58 :) 21:16:19 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1551-g914a5a5: Re-add a failure chance for enchanting weapons (Nomi) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=914a5a54c880 21:16:20 Well you didn't bring it up in ##crawl-dev. 21:16:41 What no that was a purposeful change. 21:17:19 %git 62a6f3cdfa5ad 21:17:20 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-1539-g62a6f3c: Make enchant weapon scrolls always succeed, reduce generation 10(35 hours ago, 3 files, 11+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=62a6f3cdfa5a 21:17:40 PleasingFungus: ^ 21:18:07 oh 21:18:13 I missed that 21:18:14 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:18:39 I really did fix you mistake this time :D 21:19:02 I'd actually disagree with him, though 21:19:10 I don't think consistency is a good reason for this 21:19:15 or a good enough reason 21:19:37 Also the breakpoint. 21:19:43 I don't feel strongly about the breakpoint, yes 21:19:50 mmm. Let me do a better job of the change 21:20:00 Please don't, I object. 21:20:14 Why? 21:20:16 Consistency? 21:20:42 A) Random failure isn't fun on a raw level B) I don't see any reason for it to exist. 21:21:02 I agree with (a) 21:21:05 but (b) is false 21:21:11 or, misguided, at least 21:21:27 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1552-g002409d: Revert "Re-add a failure chance for enchanting weapons (Nomi)" 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=002409de613f 21:21:28 Ok, why is B false. 21:22:43 let me think how to phrase it. 21:22:53 also, ha, he missed a place where scroll weight is specified 21:23:02 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:23:37 it is... interesting to have a reason to encourage splitting your ?ew between multiple weapons 21:23:45 it is normally optimal to dump them all in one 21:23:54 since it's better to have one very good weapon than two merely good weapons 21:24:10 Does Slaying already have decreasing returns? 21:24:14 no 21:24:39 except in that you might overkill monsters? but if that's happening, who cares, you have mikeeslaying 21:24:52 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:56 -!- Morik_ has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:10 Either way I'm not really convinced that's the case since from my understanding you should use ?ew before you have an endgame weapon. 21:25:16 -!- PleasingFungus has left ##crawl-dev 21:25:17 Feel free to bring it up on crd. 21:25:19 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:26 Feel free to bring it up on crd. 21:25:39 Either way I'm not really convinced that's the case since from my understanding you should use ?ew before you have an endgame weapon. 21:25:44 I don't understand what you mean by that 21:26:01 The last message to hit here was "except in that you might overkil.." 21:26:09 [19:25] reaverb Either way I'm not really convinced that's the case since from my understanding you should use ?ew before you have an endgame weapon. 21:26:17 I don't understand this statement 21:26:41 You should use ?ew before you have an endgame weapon. 21:26:46 why 21:26:52 And should therfore divide the scrolls up. 21:27:02 are you assuming that endgame weapons are going to be artefacts? 21:27:17 to live in lair. but that still doesn't mean you can't split them 21:27:19 |amethyst: I just uploaded five more patches, taking a serious bite out of the remaining reported issues. When you get a chance, could you compile them in and load on CSZO? Gitorious is https://gitorious.org/crawl/lastys-crawl/source/060682be3379b7c57293607b66dc9ae2c7e3b48a: 21:27:28 oops 21:27:29 !tell |amethyst: I just uploaded five more patches, taking a serious bite out of the remaining reported issues. When you get a chance, could you compile them in and load on CSZO? Gitorious is https://gitorious.org/crawl/lastys-crawl/source/060682be3379b7c57293607b66dc9ae2c7e3b48a: 21:27:30 Lasty1: OK, I'll let |amethyst: know. 21:27:36 rchandra: what? I feel like everyone's speaking esperanto 21:27:42 oops again 21:27:49 !tell |amethyst I just uploaded five more patches, taking a serious bite out of the remaining reported issues. When you get a chance, could you compile them in and load on CSZO? Gitorious is https://gitorious.org/crawl/lastys-crawl/source/060682be3379b7c57293607b66dc9ae2c7e3b48a: 21:27:50 Lasty1: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 21:28:20 the marginal value of 1 slaying on lair:1 is larger than that of 1 slaying in vaults or something 21:28:20 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:28:20 ??iashol_to_do 21:28:20 iashol to do[1/1]: faith&monks; power leap damage -60% or so; cataclysm make big noise; acquirement needs to respect sacrifices; summoning&sac love should reduce each others value; NO_ABILITY offered as sacrifice; Skill descs in ^ menu are too long; mark useless items 21:28:21 reaverb: okay, I think I see what you're saying. yes, that sort of thing was what the old behaviour encouraged 21:28:21 Lasty1: also A sheep catches fire! The sheep is struck with panic! 21:28:23 is the argument as I know it 21:28:24 er 21:28:25 ahaha 21:28:27 PleasingFungus: normally (as of a few days ago) you would enchant a currently useful weapon to +4 or so long before you had an endgame weapon 21:28:30 yes 21:28:38 Lasty1: also https://gitorious.org/crawl/lastys-crawl is a shorter url fwiw 21:28:49 gammafunk: Your opinon on the ?ew change? 21:28:52 you weren't "wasting" as many scrolls that way, since you'd have to spend a lot more to get your 'endgame' weapon to +7/8/9 anyway 21:28:56 now you are wasting that many 21:29:14 so it just encourages the player to save their ?ew for later, just like with ?ea 21:29:18 which is a bad and boring behaviour to encourage 21:29:22 yes, I suspect blowguns are really going to feel this change 21:29:35 !seen MarvinPA 21:29:35 I last saw MarvinPA at Tue Jun 17 01:55:03 2014 UTC (34m 32s ago) saying 'well like i said there should probably be some way to still place infinite charge tele traps' on ##crawl-dev. 21:29:41 I'm pretty sure you shouldn't save ?ea for later either. 21:29:43 hi, saving your ?ea for later is bad play 21:29:46 hi 21:29:51 probably 21:29:52 this is probably also true for ?ew 21:29:59 so there's that 21:30:01 !learn edit iashol_to_do s/.*/more clarity around sacrifice piety; acquirement; readjust skillpoint scaling; skill descs on ^ menu don't fit; mutual piety decrease on summoning / no love sacrifices; arcane sacrifice piety is inflated/ 21:30:01 but if you're still having a useful weapon you want it to be better 21:30:01 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/REGEX/REPLACE/opts 21:30:18 !learn edit iashol_to_do[1 s/.*/more clarity around sacrifice piety; acquirement; readjust skillpoint scaling; skill descs on ^ menu don't fit; mutual piety decrease on summoning / no love sacrifices; arcane sacrifice piety is inflated/ 21:30:18 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/REGEX/REPLACE/opts 21:30:26 mmm. I guess I'll see how it plays 21:30:35 !learn edit iashol_to_do[1 s/.*/more clarity around sacrifice piety; acquirement; readjust skillpoint scaling; skill descs on ^ menu don't fit; mutual piety decrease on summoning & no love sacrifices; arcane sacrifice piety is inflated/ 21:30:35 iashol to do[1/1]: more clarity around sacrifice piety; acquirement; readjust skillpoint scaling; skill descs on ^ menu don't fit; mutual piety decrease on summoning & no love sacrifices; arcane sacrifice piety is inflated 21:30:35 I'd rather have my flail of protection +3 and antimagic gmace +7 than flail +1 and gmace +9 21:31:36 MarvinPA: sorry for accidentally reverting your change! I still think I disagree with it but I didn't mean to revert it without talking with you (I honestly thought it was an oversight on my/chris's part) 21:31:55 sure, np 21:32:03 -!- Nomi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:05 right. back to teleport traps 21:33:07 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35:44 for some arcane reason i am now playing crawl 4.0.0 beta26 21:36:15 dang 21:36:18 more indie than 4.1 21:36:42 dang 21:36:55 the monsters-pick-up-teleport-scrolls goes back to this 21:37:36 -!- mineral has quit [Quit: bye.] 21:38:23 huh. apparently teleport traps do have charges in crawl 21:38:26 and by "teleport traps" 21:38:31 I mean "teleport traps placed by the warpwright card" 21:39:32 a HA 21:39:35 I knew I wasn't crazy 21:39:36 i thought someone mentioned that already 21:39:38 wow a wand of draining 21:39:39 oh ok yeah 21:39:48 I mentioned warpwright but only in context of it being nerfed by this change 21:39:51 *big shit eating grin* 21:40:00 but I guess I don't need to? 21:40:01 idk 21:40:03 thinking about ui 21:40:20 it'd be nice if there were "1-charge tele traps" and "infinite-charge tele traps" 21:40:25 and they were clearly distinguished visually 21:40:49 I'd like all non-vault teleport traps to be 2-4 charges 21:40:54 Make infini-charge trags green. 21:42:41 green is taken 21:43:14 I guess I'll leave warpwright as is, and distinguish between "tele traps with 1 charge left" and "tele traps with > 1 or infinite charges left" 21:43:16 visually 21:43:22 since that's the main distinction that matters 21:44:00 I have no opinion on console colours, obviously 21:44:54 PleasingFungus: Once a trap runs out of charges it should probably just disappear. 21:44:56 well showing when a trap with initial random charges has one charge left seems to miss the point of having random charges 21:45:16 reaverb: yes, obviously 21:45:34 instead of limited charges, wouldn't it be better for it to have a 50% chance of disappearing on each use, or whatever 21:45:40 MarvinPA: ....not entirely, but yeah, that's a poiint 21:45:47 that way players wouldn't get an advantage by counting the number of times it's been used 21:46:13 i would distinguish between "infinite" and "non-infinite", also minmay's thing sounds reasonable 21:46:32 I guess we could change that in zotdef too. not that it matters, given zotdef 21:46:35 Yes not tracking state sounds good. 21:46:54 PleasingFungus: chris also had a patch to remove zotdef lying around somewhere. 21:46:58 haha 21:47:13 I will give my usual reasoning for not removing a thing: 21:47:15 someone actually plays zotdef, right? 21:47:16 I do not understand why it exists 21:47:24 or why it was added in the first place 21:47:30 !lg * zotdef 21:47:30 minmay: good idea 21:47:31 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:31 29739. 2p0 the Chopper (L2 DsCK of Xom), rotted away in Zot (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault) on 2014-06-16 08:03:05, with 15 points after 246 turns and 0:02:22. 21:47:44 !lg * zotdef recent 21:47:44 3726. 2p0 the Chopper (L2 DsCK of Xom), rotted away in Zot (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault) on 2014-06-16 08:03:05, with 15 points after 246 turns and 0:02:22. 21:47:48 !lg * sprint recent 21:47:49 85148. arglypuff the Insei (L4 VSTm), mangled by a mermaid (a +0 spear) in Sprint (Sprint II: "The Violet Keep of Menkaure") on 2014-06-17 02:42:44, with 64 points after 26 turns and 0:00:18. 21:47:50 !lg * recent 21:47:51 751625. Akett the Changer (L8 GrTm), mangled by Joseph (a +0 quarterstaff) on D:7 on 2014-06-17 02:47:33, with 1418 points after 8057 turns and 0:35:46. 21:47:53 hm 21:47:58 gammafunk: "no" 21:48:11 -!- ckyle_ has quit [Quit: ckyle_] 21:48:11 !lm . zotdef 21:48:11 95. [2012-02-04 00:33:14] minmay the Hellbinder (L27 DESu of Sif Muna) killed Boris on turn 25843. (D:1) 21:48:17 Well the best way to find out why it exists is to remove it and see what happens. (or in this case just disable it). 21:48:19 I gotta finish that game sometime 21:48:20 !lg patashu zotdef won 21:48:21 2. Patashu the Archmage (L27 OpNe of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-05-25 10:23:33, with 14430302 points after 10711 turns and 10:33:08. 21:48:24 It's not really a sufficient answer 21:48:24 I have TWO zotdef wins 21:48:31 I am the zotdef champion !!!!!! 21:48:31 reaverb: that is really a very reaverish thing to say! 21:48:38 But I guess no one is maintaining it? 21:48:54 I have no idea how broken it is 21:49:27 hey, what if some other random country plays zotdef religiously 21:49:40 and we hear about a critical nerf to skilled zotdef users 21:49:44 of e.g. syria 21:49:48 -!- ckyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:49:55 We can just refer people who like it to an ealier version of the game (Like 0.11) 21:49:57 gammafunk: that would be a bonus 21:50:08 I have no idea which version is best. 21:50:14 But I do not think it is 0.14 21:50:24 "no one plays it, it complicates the code, and it's really bad" is a good reason to remove it, I think 21:50:26 turns out they're all Assad supporters 21:51:09 Well maybe it at least warrants a CRD email? I mean it's a big thing to just remove 21:51:16 admittedly 21:51:22 I mean I don't play it, but... 21:51:23 probably actually looking at it and seeing how broken it is would be a thing worth doing 21:51:24 why would you remove zot def? 21:51:36 tabstorm: "no one plays it, it complicates the code, and it's really bad" 21:51:39 Well it's not like we can just apply the patch. (and yes seeing how broken is would be good) 21:51:42 tabstorm: if zotdef was self contained there wouldn't be much point in removing it 21:51:43 buuuut, it's not 21:51:49 perhaps it's easily fixable! i suspect not but these are things worth knowing 21:51:54 there are tons of places in the codebase that are like 'if this is zotdef XXX else YYY' 21:51:55 tons and tons 21:51:58 o 21:52:00 DDHe is powerful lat time I checked. 21:52:01 wow, a rod 21:52:07 *last 21:52:19 there's only like... probably sixty places 21:52:21 that's not that bad 21:52:34 'only sixty' 21:52:47 grep exists 21:52:54 gammafunk: I used it but I'm bad at counting 21:52:55 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:58 no I mean 21:53:10 in response to 60 somehow being some insurmountable obstacle 21:53:22 oh, you mean for removing it 21:53:24 no, of course not 21:53:24 yeah 21:53:30 I was talking about the cost of maintaining it 21:53:39 no yeah, if no one cares, I totally agree 21:53:41 PleasingFungus: If you carefully consider that Sprint gives and order of magnitude more fun to the Crawl community with a similar amount of code complexity as zotdef, I think you can achieve true removal zen. 21:53:52 I am not the one arguing against you here tbh 21:53:56 the !lg stats convinced me 21:53:58 however 21:54:01 c-r-d awaits 21:54:10 speaking of things that no-one uses...... 21:54:10 [03:51:27] <+MarvinPA> probably actually looking at it and seeing how broken it is would be a thing worth doing 21:54:14 oh 21:54:15 also that yes 21:54:17 sorry! 21:55:16 if you need to know how to play zotdef well to test it properly, I can help guide you through 21:55:19 Hmm, this zotdef might totally break my rc file. 21:57:50 Patashu: Why not just list anything you think is broken about zd 21:57:51 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0/20140414143035]] 21:58:05 you mean in trunk specifically? I'd have to play it again 21:58:07 or do you mean 'what's overpowered' 21:58:25 Just things which don't make sense as game mechanics. 21:58:32 Like curse skulls moving before that was fixed. 21:58:59 oh, hmm 21:59:09 well, one thing I'd like in zotdef is a steady stream of ?acq scrolls or something equivalent to that 22:00:04 when you get to a high enough level you can grab the items hidden behind glass using the zotdef teleport power, summon bazaars, scrolls of acquirement, etc. but that's way aways off, it feels really lopsided 22:00:20 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:58 i was mostly thinking about simpler things like it crashing all the time 22:01:10 you would have to ask someone who actually plays zotdef in trunk then (not me) 22:01:45 that monster failed to pathfind crash seems to show up in here a bunch at least, and has done intermittently for the entire time zotdef has existed i think? 22:02:03 I haven't heard anybody called zotdef unstable except for the pathfind crash. 22:02:27 mmm. I think I'm going to change random generation & display of tele traps for now, and leave all vault traps untouched for now - it looks like I'd need to make nontrivial changes to vault syntax to allow placing non-permanent teleport traps (in either the "charges" or "% failchance" variants) 22:03:07 well sure, "it's not unstable except for when it crashes" is a true statement 22:03:15 well. idk. maybe I'll poke at it in a second pass. I guess I'd just need to add a field to trap_spec, which probably isn't too bad... 22:03:27 MarvinPA: Ha. 22:06:06 Basically what I meant is I played zotdef some way back when I only played local, and I never had a crash IIRC. I only heard about the pathfind crash here. 22:07:08 -!- FiftyNine has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:35 huh. apparently you really can still disarm traps. 22:07:46 I wonder if I should remove that. 22:08:31 I wonder if it's documented anywhere? 22:08:35 I would support removing that. 22:08:56 I think I've only used it these days for webs 22:09:01 and it doesn't work very well 22:09:07 since you just end up stepping on the silly thing 22:09:22 rip 22:09:25 it is documented on ?? and in the manual 22:09:26 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:09:45 yeah, I grepped around right after asking 22:10:06 Where is it in ?? 22:10:24 disarming traps killed me at least twice in meatsprint 22:10:25 of all things 22:10:32 how 22:10:32 (if you cleave at a web you try to disarm it instead LOL) 22:10:40 excellent 22:11:03 oh, there it is, it's listed as 'untrap' 22:11:15 hrm, as in you attack in a direction not in that of the trap, but it still attempts disarm? 22:11:29 gammafunk: no, he was attacking in a direction that didn't have enemies to optimize cleaving 22:11:35 no, I specifically attacked at the web 22:11:36 and it disarmed instead 22:11:40 but I did it expecting a big ass cleave 22:11:44 then, it's not specific to cleave 22:11:46 yeah 22:11:50 that's technically normal disarming 22:11:54 but I see what you mean 22:11:59 -!- Kramin is now known as Kramin42 22:12:04 yeah I am not convinced that it adds interesting choices to the game 22:12:04 FR 22:12:05 if you have an axe 22:12:09 you can cleave and untrap at the same time 22:12:13 Patashu: bad news 22:12:37 -!- Kramin42 is now known as Kramin 22:13:03 You slash the web apart! 22:13:12 ...also aren't webs the only thing you can disarm now 22:13:47 mechanical traps still exist in zot:5 and tomb 22:13:53 and ossuaries maybe 22:14:00 (and zotdef) 22:14:11 but why would you disarm those 22:14:22 don't you need to do it to clean the space? 22:14:24 it's been a while 22:14:38 yeah, maybe can't place over existing trap 22:15:39 o 22:15:57 .........another reason to remove zotdef? 22:16:26 Has anybody tried playing it? I keep killing off DDHe 22:17:15 reaverb: OpNe of Sif Muna is probably still the easiest way to win zotdef 22:17:44 1) make undead 2) make more undead 3) put oklob plants along the walls of the orb chamber (as in when an enemy walks in there should be plants lining the walls on both sides one deep, and maybe some on the orb too) 22:17:53 4) channel so you can make more undead 22:17:59 teawhy sif? 22:18:01 Patashu: Hmm. 22:18:02 *why sif 22:18:07 channeling and book gifts 22:18:08 Channel. 22:18:15 because you won't get books from exploring because there's no exploring 22:18:34 Heh, I bet New Nemelex is awful. 22:18:39 Ash is already disabled. 22:19:01 old nemelex might have been pretty good, never tried it 22:19:42 Ely lets you reset the rot from orb desecration, so that's nice. 22:20:16 but you can't be necromancer of ely 22:20:18 so ely unreasons 22:20:40 Oh yes, why Op? 22:20:57 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:42 well, you're not going to find gloves, boots, cloak or an interesting robe, like, ever 22:21:56 I think I took it for 1) constriction 2) later I could make water and swim around in it (that's one of the zotdef powers) 22:22:09 but I guess op isn't as strong a choice as ne or su is for class 22:22:09 -!- tksquared_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:41 I'll try Gh for UC and rot curing. 22:23:01 what book background? 22:23:06 Ne 22:24:18 Oh yes I should probably actually use my bonus potions.. 22:24:30 yeah, the beginning of the game is the hardest part 22:24:32 i vaguely recall ability to heal from rot being not especially useful 22:24:43 once you have the walls lined, a crapload of summons and/or zombies and sif is your bro you're good 22:24:47 marvinpa: yeah, I think so too 22:24:53 since if you get to the point where you're rotting a bunch then you probably just lose 22:24:54 either you completely get destroyed or you can hang on 22:25:12 so maybe fesu or fene is "optimal" 22:25:48 Hmm, good to know. 22:27:34 hmm 22:27:46 !lm Patashu zotdef -6 -tv 22:27:46 245/250. Patashu, XL26 OpNe, T:8810 (milestone) requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 22:27:47 I just realized 22:27:55 the ocs nerf probably makes them awful to worthless in zotdef :p 22:27:57 not sure if this is bad/good/neutral 22:28:45 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 22:29:36 -!- Morik_ has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:57 huh. I wonder if chunkless would break zot defense 22:29:58 probably 22:30:11 break it how 22:30:18 well, where would you get nutrition 22:30:29 zotdef has no hunger IIRC 22:30:37 including from spells? 22:30:41 I don't know what you'd do with extra meat rations. 22:30:44 Pleasingfungus: Yes. 22:30:46 huh 22:30:48 ok 22:30:54 !lg * zotdef won min=turns 22:30:54 45. Daggerfall the Intangible (L27 HaAs of Makhleb), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-05-12 13:23:45, with 14540796 points after 10582 turns and 2:34:23. 22:31:02 Berserking doesn't make me hungry for exmaple. 22:31:04 zotdef is pretty 'turncount fast' anyway 22:31:06 10-20k will be your win 22:31:20 (turns take longer than in crawl, of course, since you're not spending them resting/autoexploring/autotravelling) 22:31:44 Still resting. 22:32:29 Hmm, zotdef is probably the only place corpse sarcrafices work as a mechanic. 22:33:34 by the way 22:33:35 how do you mean 22:33:44 are naga sharpshooters supposed to be the most threatening nagas 22:34:01 Patashu: You have to move to sac. 22:34:06 Which is bad in zotdef. 22:34:06 after greater nagas, probably 22:34:14 reaverb: fedhas? 22:34:20 PleasingFungus: no, they're far more threatening than greaters 22:34:32 Greaters at least respect LOF. 22:34:41 PleasingFungus: fedhas doesn't exist in zotdef. I'm talking about Trog, for example. 22:34:50 oh, I didn't realize that 22:35:05 it's kind of silly there's a unique sharpshooter with portal projectile 22:35:08 but yet the normal ones also have it 22:35:14 You get plant powers anyway. 22:35:22 -!- netkitten has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:35:32 Which is better: arrow trap or oklob sappling? 22:36:14 the latter 22:37:10 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:17 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:42:31 -!- Kramin has left ##crawl-dev 22:43:53 oklob saplings are amazing 22:44:16 Patashu: I've got a TrBe actually running. 22:44:45 reaverb: I will be impressed if it is actually sustainable 22:46:25 I guess there ARE 5 zotdef berserker wins, but I don't personally understand how you would pull it off 22:46:55 Oh, zotdef gets hard again later? 22:47:24 (Is ZP exponential like levels?) 22:47:52 zotdef gets harder and harder 22:48:13 for example 22:48:13 !lg Patashu zotdef max=xl -5 22:48:14 51/55. Patashu the Polluter (L15 NaVM of Sif Muna), slain by a mottled draconian (a +0,+0 glaive) (led by Tiamat) on D:1 (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault) on 2012-04-09 05:34:16, with 83346 points after 3303 turns and 1:48:09. 22:48:16 tiamat at xl15 'cool' 22:48:18 it's a bit random though 22:49:30 Patashu: Didn't you say the early game was the hardest part :D? 22:49:39 the early game is the hardest part 22:49:42 then the midgame is the hardester part 22:49:44 then after that you're good 22:49:50 -!- ckyle_ has quit [Quit: ckyle_] 22:49:59 it's different kinds of hard really 22:50:06 early game you're struggling with your zero resources ass tier poverty setup 22:50:25 midgame you feel like you're starting to figure it all out then the game absolutely FLOODS you with some prime tier bullshit before your defense is perfect 22:51:13 and after that you should be literally invulnerable if you're playing right 22:51:13 only reliable zotdef strategy I found was cheese with old summons 22:52:04 minmay: my two wins are fesu and opne so basically the same 22:52:22 but apparently there are 9 fire elementalist wins 22:52:33 but I'm not sure if that means 'firestorm dudes' or 'started with fire ball but got gifted summons by sif' 22:52:45 I could go through their logs I guess 22:53:54 !lg * --FE zotdef 22:53:56 1326. AvylaaBelgium the Firebug (L2 DEFE), rotted away (a kobold) in Zot (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault) on 2014-06-10 21:53:10, with 19 points after 240 turns and 0:03:12. 22:53:59 !lg * --FE zotdef won -log 22:53:59 9. atrodo, XL27 DjFE, T:12071: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/atrodo/morgue-atrodo-20130619-032827.txt 22:54:03 Monsters runing past you is really weird. 22:54:15 DjFE, hah 22:54:18 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:22 that one is a conjurer 22:54:29 he has animate dead 22:54:31 possible summoner detected !_! 22:54:47 !lg * --FE zotdef won -2 -log 22:54:48 8/9. Mandor, XL27 DEFE, T:10657: Can't find morgue. 22:54:54 !lg * --FE zotdef won -3 -log 22:54:54 cast animate dead only in the late-ish game 22:54:54 7/9. Fungee, XL27 DEFE, T:21145: Can't find morgue. 22:54:56 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:56 looks like 22:54:58 !lg * --FE zotdef won -4 -log 22:54:59 6/9. atrodo, XL26 FeFE, T:10798: Can't find morgue. 22:55:03 !lg * --FE zotdef won -5 -log 22:55:04 5/9. Daggerfall, XL27 DsFE, T:13049: Can't find morgue. 22:55:07 !lg * --FE zotdef won -6 -log 22:55:08 4/9. soul, XL27 DEFE, T:10620: Can't find morgue. 22:55:11 looks like a lot of conjurations looking at the action table 22:55:12 ok you get the idea 22:55:17 and arrow traps 22:56:29 !lg * DEFE zotdef won 22:56:30 6. Mandor the Archmage (L27 DEFE of Vehumet), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-12-04 10:52:35, with 14525096 points after 10657 turns and 3:59:17. 22:56:34 !lg * DEFE zotdef won -log 22:56:34 6. Mandor, XL27 DEFE, T:10657: Can't find morgue. 22:56:37 hrm 22:56:50 -!- ruwin has quit [] 22:57:07 !lg Patashu zotdef won -log 22:57:08 2. Patashu, XL27 OpNe, T:10711: Can't find morgue. 22:57:09 !lg Patashu zotdef won -2 -log 22:57:10 1/2. Patashu, XL27 FeSu, T:26104: Can't find morgue. 22:57:12 !lg * DEFE zotdef won s=src 22:57:12 huh, that's weird 22:57:12 6 games for * (DEFE zotdef won): 5x cdo, cao 22:57:17 I can tv them 22:57:19 but I can't get their logs 22:57:24 something about cdo maybe 22:57:29 !lg * DEFE zotdef won src=cao 22:57:30 1. Perryman the Annihilator (L27 DEFE of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-01-25 07:17:08, with 14562401 points after 10605 turns and 5:30:24. 22:57:30 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 22:57:35 no, guess not 22:57:38 !lg * DEFE zotdef won src=cao -log 22:57:39 1. Perryman, XL27 DEFE, T:10605: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Perryman/morgue-Perryman-20120125-071708.txt 22:57:39 I dunno why you'd purge zotdef logs anyway, it's not like they'd take up that much room since it gets played 2+ orders of magnitude less 22:57:41 oh 22:57:42 -!- User_ is now known as Xenobreeder 22:59:06 -!- bencryption has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:00 I'm trying to figure out if anyone actually uses ~ without redefining it 23:00:04 (in des syntax) 23:00:52 I want to test if my change works (making ~-generated tele traps temporary), but I can't find anyone who actually uses ~ for traps 23:00:57 I might have to write my own vault... 23:01:11 -!- bencryption has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:10 Patashu: Yes I died. 23:02:59 reaverb: thought so 23:03:20 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:03:40 'suppose that's one mark against it: The difficulty curve doesn't really work. 23:05:12 Trying VSNe 23:11:02 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:25 -!- Kramin has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:57 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:24 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:17:51 -!- eb_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:33 haha 23:20:37 reaverb, wanna see a good one 23:20:44 Yes. 23:20:57 !source describe.cc:546 23:20:58 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/describe.cc;hb=HEAD#l546 23:21:13 I was trying to change trap_name() 23:21:15 and having no effect 23:21:17 guess why???? 23:21:18 !tell Lasty Amulets of faith increasing piety gain kind of already work because you still have to make the decision of whether or not you want to sacrifice more things after taking it off. 23:21:18 Bloaxor: OK, I'll let lasty know. 23:21:19 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:44 !source directn:2948 23:21:44 Couldn't understand :2948 23:21:48 !source directn.cc:2948 23:21:48 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/directn.cc;hb=HEAD#l2948 23:21:50 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:22:27 Ha, apprently the trap_name is usedIn vaults. 23:22:29 ? 23:22:30 yep 23:22:37 and also for how traps describe themselves 23:22:46 ("the needle from the %s whizzes past you!") 23:22:56 describe is all fucked up I was changing the description of spells but the monster_info passed into it just gives vague information about the type of monster in general you have to pull the monster data again 23:23:06 Anyway refactoring that to not be stupid would be good. 23:23:14 I am doing so now 23:23:20 Good. 23:23:37 ChangeAj: I think the basic idea is to isolate concerns. just pass in the data about the monster that you really need! 23:23:39 feature code is really messed up. 23:23:43 how well that works in practice.... 23:24:10 the thing is its used for the search about monsters and specific monsters 23:24:20 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:26 reaverb: bonus 23:24:26 but you can't get anything for specific monsters in general 23:24:33 like their props aren't set 23:24:40 it's defined, again, a few lines later 23:24:43 ("teleport trap") 23:24:58 Pleasingfungus: Why???? 23:25:13 DNGN_TRAP_TELEPORT, obv 23:25:20 not to be confused with a trap that happens to be a teleporter 23:28:48 should probably have a describe_general_monster and describe_specific_monster at some point 23:29:03 that might simplify things 23:29:21 I guess it would be monster type not general monster 23:30:31 -!- Orph is now known as Orphic 23:40:18 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:36 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 23:43:37 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:44:36 I am going nuts trying to figure out how to rename these teleport traps 23:44:48 you just can't pass enough info into the right places 23:45:54 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:47:00 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:47:34 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:21 fr summoners start with summon butterflies instead of spammals 23:48:46 that would make summoner the best background by a lot 23:49:09 uh 23:49:10 would it 23:49:15 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:49:22 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 23:49:24 well, it would be hard before you can kill stuff I guess 23:49:29 don't forget that I nerfed butterflies...... 23:49:40 butterflies nerf...... 23:49:53 butterfly (08b) | Spd: 25 | HD: 1 | HP: 3-8 | AC/EV: 0/25 | fly | Res: 06magic(4) | Vul: 09poison | XP: 0 | Sz: tiny | Int: insect. 23:49:53 %0.14?butterfly 23:50:02 goblin (15g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 4 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1 | Sz: small | Int: normal. 23:50:02 %??goblin 23:50:03 butterfly (13b) | Spd: 25 | HD: 1 | HP: 1 | AC/EV: 0/25 | fly | Res: 06magic(4) | Vul: 09poison | XP: 0 | Sz: tiny | Int: insect. 23:50:03 %??butterfly 23:50:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:51:21 who nerfs butterflies 23:51:25 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:34 jerks 23:51:35 imo 23:51:44 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:45 -!- Lumpydoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:51:50 can someone make innocuous clouds spawn into summoned butterflies with qazlol 23:52:04 -!- valrus has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:52:12 haha 23:52:51 -!- valrus has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:59 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:38 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:57:47 haha. // very intelligent monsters can be assumed to have a high T&D skill 23:58:26 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1553-g16a3d74: Tloc spell icons 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=16a3d7487b73 23:58:27 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1554-g44dca77: A few summoning spell icons 10(2 minutes ago, 4 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=44dca7743ad4 23:58:29 if they're intelligent why would they be skilling t&d HEYO