00:00:40 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:01:58 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:54 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:19 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:21 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 00:03:46 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:49 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:08:11 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1239-g4e31f84 (34) 00:08:16 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0/20140414143035]] 00:12:48 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:10 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:34 -!- Sizzell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:13 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:03 -!- ActinalWhomp has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:19:40 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:42 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:20:25 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:47 -!- bones__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:55 -!- zxc232 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:18 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:38 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:03 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34:42 -!- Blomdor has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:45:16 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:52 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:49:46 -!- bones__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:50:05 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:19 -!- sd1989 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:28 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:29 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55:55 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:27 %git chunkless 00:57:27 07gammafunk02 * 0.15-a0-1253-g828117c: Merge branch master into chunkless 10(4 hours ago, files, + -) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=828117c92049 00:57:31 &version cszo 00:57:31 %version 00:57:31 trunk: 0.15-a0-1239-g4e31f84; 0.14: 0.14.1-18-g0856e53; 0.13: 0.13.2; 0.12: 0.12.3; 0.11: 0.11.3; 0.10: 0.10.3-19-g6f05415 00:57:51 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1240-g51bfb8d: Replace some you.mutaiton[] calls with player_mutation_level() 10(29 minutes ago, 7 files, 21+ 17-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=51bfb8de72b7 00:58:09 reaverb: oops, typo 00:58:20 Oh, oops indeed. 00:58:40 I'm guess regeneration draining cost should occur when you cast it? 01:00:15 hrm, I'm not sure tying drain to regen is a good idea 01:00:19 -!- Red_Bucket has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:01:52 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:15 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:03:07 gammafunk: I have no idea what you that means :D 01:03:35 Do you mean "Tying it to the duration status" "Tying it to the spell" "Tying it to regeneration hp" etc.? 01:04:05 you're talking about the spell it seems 01:04:11 since you said "cast it" 01:04:21 but yeah I may not know what you're proposing 01:04:26 The suggestion is that casting regeneration also drains you some. 01:04:31 right 01:04:38 And he regen is buffed so it's still good. 01:04:48 yeah, it's kind of hard to tie a cost to regen 01:04:51 The logic being "Regen is good to cast every fight right now" 01:05:21 I find swapping ring of regeneration to be a bigger annoyance than the spell 01:06:06 yeah non-armour/mutaion sources of regen in general have that annoyance factor 01:06:10 Hmm, draining cost on equiping ring of regen? 01:06:25 (That obviously means no sticking it to the spell too of course) 01:06:36 no he means the swapping itself is annoying 01:06:41 or unequiping it, it doesn't really matter much. 01:07:00 -!- Mad_Wack is now known as Mad_Wack_Away 01:07:00 -!- Mad_Wack_Away has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 01:07:05 gammafunk: Yes, which why I'm suggesting "What if equipping ring of regen had a draining cost so that is not a good idea." 01:07:18 (that being the swapping) 01:07:38 right now there is a cost to regen 01:07:40 it's kind of just an incongruous tradeoff 01:07:43 the hunger cost.......... 01:07:46 -!- bones__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:07:49 yeah that is true 01:07:59 you get regen, but now you're less good at everything 01:08:03 in chunkless maybe that's relevant? 01:08:06 well 01:08:12 PleasingFungus: Yes but that's utterly meaningless even in chunkless. 01:08:14 once I get around to fixing food spawnrates 01:08:17 maybe 01:08:20 with drain you'd have to make it a significant amount of drain to affect decision making 01:08:26 reaverb: maybe it should be boosted, then! 01:08:57 probably nutrition is the better cost, yes 01:08:57 I would far prefer to add the draining cost. 01:09:27 gammafunk: I can see draining ~0.5 skill levels per cast being sort of interesting - enough that repeatedly casting it would weaken you slightly, but not beyond recovery... I guess that'd be pretty crippling at low levels, though. hm. 01:09:29 reaverb: why? 01:09:49 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:04 well, repeatedly casting though, that really only is necessary at low power 01:10:10 PleasingFungus: A) Nutrition is changing so much right now it would be impossible to balance. 01:10:12 draining regen would make it really annoying and awful, I think. consider the effect on min delay. 01:10:14 correctly. 01:10:34 rchandra: I think you're not understanding the proposal. 01:10:43 this is quite possible 01:11:00 so balance it in trunk? chunkless is supposed to approximate the old nutrition levels... 01:11:12 so if we do that right, regen hunger costs should work as well in one as the other 01:11:38 PleasingFungus: B) In general I think balancing something with hunger is bad. 01:11:40 regen gives nausea obv 01:11:47 :v 01:11:53 :v 01:12:09 What is the :v for? 01:12:09 -!- morik has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:12:12 eb 01:12:18 eb's silly suggestion 01:12:23 Ah. 01:12:32 -!- morik has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:45 reaverb: why do you think balancing with hunger costs is a bad idea? 01:12:49 rchandra: The draining cost would only be when swapping the ring or casting the spell, once you had the regen status it would work as now. 01:13:17 rchandra is saying that casting regen would do all sorts of things like raise min delay 01:13:22 because it's lowering skill 01:13:33 well, it'd raise delay, not mindelay <- pedantry 01:13:38 casting a spell that reduces my melee attack efficacy by a lot is awful 01:13:38 yes 01:13:57 right, with the spell you want it to truly be a net positive to cast 01:14:02 otherwise no one will cast it 01:14:13 and drain it tough as a cost 01:14:25 I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but it'd be hard to make the "right" amount of regen 01:14:28 there's a reasonable space for spells that are a net positive *in some circumstances*... but yeah draining is a tough cost 01:14:29 gammafunk: I don't think nutrition alone will work as a ring of regen cost unless it's vamp-style because it will still be optimal to swap it out for combat 01:14:39 yeah 01:14:40 it's literally already a cost 01:14:47 it's based on: when you heal 01:14:53 drain or vamp on the ring swap does seem possible 01:15:02 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:14 it'd have to be a major hunger cost 01:15:47 PleasingFungus: A) It's a hard cap. When you get to the end you just die. B) The nature of hunger leads to "checkmate situations" where you know you will die C) The swap issue D) Constantly babysitting a strategic number over time is tedious - hp works OK because you know you're full when after "5" 01:15:51 PleasingFungus: there already are circumstances it's not a net positive: you're undead, you're with a good god 01:16:04 for the spell, the turn cost is sufficient - the spell can have altered duration / power / level / etc. if needed 01:16:04 reaverb: this sounds like you want to get rid of hunger, not hunger costs 01:16:16 also, (c) isn't a thing 01:16:35 PleasingFungus: I do want to get rid of hunger, and worse way to do that is would be to add more stuff dependant on hunger. 01:16:51 oh god 01:17:08 PleasingFungus: long term goal though. 01:17:11 it is very hard to try to do things when every dial you try to touch 01:17:14 and every knob you try to touch 01:17:26 is marked "DEPRECATED - TO BE REMOVED - PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH -- reaverb" 01:17:43 no food. no charms. no hunger. no nothing 01:17:57 yeah as long as hunger is a thing, it's fair game to use, it just has to be a good usage 01:18:06 on further thought maybe ring of regen should just go away since "ring of less piety decay" (which is what it is, 99% of the time) isn't very interesting 01:18:14 but of course reaverb is free not to pursue a patch based on a hunger cost :) 01:18:17 minmay: ring of lower turn count :) 01:18:35 PleasingFungus: I think food and charms are the only thing on that list, and it's not like I tried to stop you from pushing the confusing touch patch after that discussion. 01:18:43 but if it stays it should at least just be "ring of less piety decay" and not "ring of less piety decay that you swap for a ring that's actually useful in combat, every time you're in combat" 01:19:11 ring of spawn fewer monsters 01:19:13 minmay: ring of faith preservation 01:19:23 yeah, that's the silly part of ring of regen, swapping it in a fight 01:19:26 yeah rings that are best swapped for combat aren't ideal... 01:19:29 there's probably a fix for that 01:19:31 I'll sleep on it 01:19:34 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140524030204]] 01:19:36 for regen the spell, it's a lost turn in a fight 01:19:41 of course those remaining 1% of cases (you are in a place where you cannot reach stairs) is relevant 01:19:55 or before the fight, but it's not a big deal 01:20:05 gammafunk: it's not if you cast it before the fight (just like you do with ring of regen swapping) 01:20:17 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:20:20 yeah see above 01:21:18 gammafunk: So how exactly do you feel about =regen getting a drain cost? 01:21:58 -!- sgiratch has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:08 well, entertaining this for a moment 01:22:17 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:22:46 I'd imagine it'd have to go down like: you get red drain (i.e. a pretty significant amount) every time your swap 01:22:58 I think if you give a small amount it'd just be ignored by the player 01:23:04 Hmm. 01:23:30 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:23:41 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:23:51 I may need to remind myself how drain works; does it detract from incoming xp, or is it just an independent pool 01:24:06 as in, you don't have a lower XL eventually from a lot of drain over time 01:24:07 gammafunk: Drain drains your skills. 01:24:10 I does not touch XP at all. 01:24:18 yes, I'm asking about what it takes to restore 01:24:18 s/I/It/ 01:24:23 yeah so 01:24:30 Oh, yes, XP, you just need to gain it. 01:24:31 you'd have to add a lot for it to be meaningful 01:24:36 There is no permanant damage. 01:24:53 it'd be like contam; just adding "gray" levels of contam would be useless 01:25:01 so it adds enough contam to get a possible mutations 01:25:06 The point is just to stop swapping after a fight, I don't think anybody can cure red drain after just one fight. 01:25:10 this would need higher levels of drain for the player to care about that swap 01:25:29 if you get one additional miscast in a fight from lower skills, or one miss, or one turn wasted swinging slowly, that could make up for the entire beneft of regen in that fight 01:25:53 (or of the other ring, whichever way you're swapping) 01:26:03 rchandra: well with what he's proposing, you'd get the drain after taking it off 01:26:07 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 01:26:26 gammafunk: Yes, after taking it off sounds best. 01:26:41 so even small amounts of drain mean you don't swap willy-nilly, it doesn't need to be red 01:26:42 basically it'd be like Contam 01:26:50 rchandra: That was my though. 01:27:01 I think if it's a small amount you could indeed swap easilly 01:27:26 gammafunk: I'm not sure why you keep comparing it to Contam Drain does stuff no matter how much you have. 01:27:48 oh it does "stuff" just not very much stuff 01:28:06 when you're early D perhaps you might care about yellow drain 01:28:16 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1241-g1fa2302: Rewrap a comment to 80 char 10(24 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1fa230282dea 01:28:18 also this probably goes without saying but ring of regen *is* pretty useless in combat so after making people keep it on in combat, you should probably also make it useful in combat so that it gets used ever 01:28:50 -!- bones__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:53 (well, it's useful in combat if you find it early, but with the extra rarity on it that doesn't happen too often) 01:28:55 wild: add contam... and move to amulet? 01:28:58 minmay: I was thinking of giving it 50 instead for 40 regen points for a start. 01:29:14 eb_mobile: I really think drain would be better than contam. 01:29:22 errr yeah 01:29:24 Adding to an amulet would make some sense. 01:29:33 brain failure 01:29:36 but would conflict with the spell a bit. 01:29:40 reaverb: I hope you adjust tla and regen mutation appropriately if you move away from 20/40/60/100 01:30:10 minmay: I was about to say breaking that would be the problem. 01:30:30 yeah, I mean if you're setting small levels of drain, I think people will just keep swapping like always 01:30:48 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:30:54 it could work with a higher drain cost I guess, you might need to increase its regen rate then I suppose 01:30:58 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:03 gammafunk: I really doubt anybody would keep swapping even if the drain cleared after one fight. 01:31:20 why would you doubt that 01:31:25 gammafunk: And if it's more than that (which is should be) than the chance drops to nothing. 01:31:33 do people really swap regen that much 01:31:37 there's essentially no real cost 01:31:47 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:31:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:01 gammafunk: Drain is a pretty big cost. rchandra mentioned the mindelay thing. 01:32:11 that's *if* you add significant amounts 01:32:22 you do realize how little small amounts of drain affects your skill 01:32:43 just barely becomes not anymore yes 01:34:09 if you use draining you also have to think about what to do to undead players 01:34:21 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:21 since draining undead players doesn't seem very good 01:34:38 and letting them regen swap just like everyone in the current bad system doesn't seem very good 01:34:46 so you'd probably need to prevent ring of regen from working on them at all or something 01:34:59 gammafunk: Yellow drain is half a skill level on all skills. That's significant enough to not be worth swapping every fight. 01:34:59 (p.s. mummies should really be able to cast regen spell) 01:35:35 half a skill level means very little to most characters by the time they're able to do a lot of swapping 01:35:39 minmay: Not sure why draining undead player would not be good, particularly since they can already be drained. 01:36:32 gammafunk: Can I just try it? =regen has been as is for years and we can just test this and revert if it doesn't work. 01:36:53 Oh I'm not going to stop you from trying of course :) 01:37:13 I foresee a revert, but that's not the end of the world 01:37:19 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37:23 the one thing we do currently with a drain cost is shadow form 01:37:31 and that provides (ostensibly) all these benefits 01:37:35 and gives a big drain cost 01:37:35 ....this makes me wonder if other things I thought were rejected I should have pushed. 01:37:46 gammafunk: Shadow Form gives yellow drain too. 01:37:53 At least initially. 01:38:08 it gets you to high drain pretty fast as I recall 01:38:16 not to mention it lowers your effective skill 01:38:25 so that drain can have more of an effect 01:38:31 shadow form also gives half damage and negative enhancers so 01:38:31 gammafunk: What do you mean "effective skill" 01:38:46 negative enhances 01:38:49 ??shadow_form 01:38:49 shadow form[1/2]: Dithmenos' 5* ability - for some skill drain, MP, and piety, you turn invisible for the duration (without glow), gain rTorment, rRot, rN+++, rPois+++, immunity to hostile enchantments, and 50% damage reduction, but you also deal only 50% melee damage and get two spell anti-enhancer levels. 01:39:04 two spell anti-ehancer levels, etc 01:39:32 anyhow drain wasn't much designed to be used as a "cost"; maybe it will work out in the end I guess 01:40:42 I think almost anything can be used as an effective cost. 01:41:27 especially hunger 01:41:33 Except hunger. 01:42:05 hunger is is a better cost that drain I think 01:42:22 Hmm, could you explain why you think that? 01:43:59 It's based on a resource you find through killing monsters and finding food; drain as a cost is "I'll make you as bad as you were a while ago, just find some monsters and go kill them (less effectively than you just were)" 01:44:14 hm 01:44:49 gammafunk: Could you maybe explain that a differant way? Something about draing making you less effective being bad? 01:45:14 removing regen putting you at low nutrition (like vamp) would maybe be more meaningful to prevent tactical swap 01:45:44 eb_mobile: tactical swaps aren't bad, just swaping every fight. 01:45:50 or after every fight. 01:45:58 hm 01:46:17 well you certainly can't do it every fight if you have a vamp-like cost 01:46:20 since you'll starve 01:47:01 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:50:32 gammafunk: Would pushing the drain cost thing now be reasonable or should I discuss it with more people due ot PleasingFungus not likel it. 01:52:53 yeah maybe put it on crd with the ideas you like (for the ring, for the spell) 01:54:14 I don't think having two source of regen with drain costs is best (because it makes the two source more like each other). Not sure if crd is worth it, I was just going to wait for differant people to be around. 01:54:24 that works too 01:54:34 MarvinPA is a good one to ask 01:54:41 What I should probably tell crd about is remvoing the Hall of Blades. 01:54:47 elliptic, but he's been away, and dpeg 01:54:53 "tell" == "ask" 01:55:39 well sure, but others have commit access as well 01:55:45 dpeg supported it for the spell, I just thought of the ring when minmay mentioned it has worse problems with being nontactical. 01:56:01 gammafunk: Er, what does the commit access comment mean? 01:56:22 it means others have commit access (sad but true) 01:56:42 gammafunk: But what else was is suppose to mean? 01:57:05 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:17 -!- Elsi has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:57:38 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:50 I'm not really following you 01:58:16 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:58:23 Bye gammafunk? 01:59:19 it just occurred to me as I tried to fall asleep 01:59:55 whyyyy not just make regen ring with on a delay like gourmand 02:00:13 s/with/work 02:00:38 because it's too obvious so devs must have had reasons for not doing it before. well done eb, sounds good to me :) 02:00:54 eb_mobile: That could work, but I think even hhe vamp hard hunger cost would be better. 02:02:48 not sure if rchandra sarcasm, will maybe check when I wake up. good night 02:03:15 eb_mobile: I think a timer would still be problematic. Good night! 02:03:31 the gradual taking effect is much less clunky than vamp or drain. if it only "charges" while at full hp there's no gain in swapping it in after combat, you'd have to leave it on before and during as well to have any effect 02:03:44 wasn't sarcasm 02:04:17 er maybe that is, I'm confusing myself. I do like the idea. 02:04:30 rchandra: Hmm, I would argue the opposite - slowly gaining the effect is more complicated than just getting a one off penalty. 02:04:42 Since you have to track an "invisible" varaible. 02:05:12 -!- Mateji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:27 chargining at full hp sounds weird to me - sit in a corner for a few hundered turns to activate your ring? 02:05:59 -!- moq has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:04 if it charges slowly at all times, it still becomes useful to put onn after each fight 02:06:30 just maybe instead of going from 50 to 25 turns to rest, you go from 50 to 40 02:06:37 Yes, but I think vamp hunger cost would be more elegant than making you sit in the corner for a while. 02:07:05 oh, I'd just press o and let it turn on when it's ready 02:07:47 rchandra: Yes, I imagine some players would wait for it to trigger. 02:09:34 -!- bones__ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:26 actually, it doesn't need to charge. just have it only "regen" until your hp >= the hp you had when you put it on. 02:11:14 Oh, hmm, so you can only put the ring on at full hp? 02:11:33 That seems reasonable. 02:11:56 you can put it on at half hp, but that will only give you accelerated regeneration until you reach half again (you might get injured down to 25%, say) 02:12:27 or you can only put it on at full, as long as that doesn't cause problems with dd/vp/mutations. 02:12:32 rchandra: That sounds a little overcomplicated. 02:12:38 Oh, yes, the mutations stuff. 02:12:43 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:12:55 DD don't benefit from = regen anyway, nor do bloodless vampries. 02:13:04 So I guess that's fine with them. 02:13:28 (I looked here for errors to see why my game kept hanging; is there a rebuild or something going?) 02:14:41 Nivim: if it's cszo I and some others were having that too, the operator doesn't seem to be in though. 02:15:03 -!- |amethys1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:18 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:32 If ring of regen is a problem because it gets swapped in for fights, would replacing it with potions of regeneration work? 02:15:40 rchandra: Which queries pull on that server's resources? Could someone have asked it for something really intensive? 02:16:01 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:08 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:12 maybe somebodyunnamed is running an unthrottled bot 02:17:32 potions aren't really a replacement for rings, as in they fill completely different roles 02:17:47 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1241-g1fa2302 (34) 02:17:58 also those would probably just be worse heal wounds 02:18:38 or just yet another buff i would drink before fighting some unique or entering v:5 02:19:11 -!- Mateji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:51 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:10 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:48 -!- Orphic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:17 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:30 -!- category has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:26:30 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:26:31 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 02:27:07 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:15 SwissStopwatch, you should mention the door thing and bribe somebody to fix it. 02:30:20 -!- rchandra has left ##crawl-dev 02:30:32 What door thing? 02:30:57 Can you drink a potion of paralysis to bust out of DDoor early ? :D 02:31:52 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:08 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:45 reaverb: Door thing: Take a look at ##crawl; people have complained and commiserated! 02:42:07 -!- Kaput has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:48 -!- bones___ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:05 -!- bones__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:54:21 -!- bones___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:54:54 -!- bhaak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:51 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1242-g2d44f70: Remove Goliath Beetles from the Spider's Nest and the Lair 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d44f70a2ed8 03:07:07 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:58 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:25:30 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:49 -!- Patashu has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:27:49 -!- Patashu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:28 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:34:02 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:01 -!- Notipsum has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:35:24 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 03:35:29 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:37:34 -!- Deathawk_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:20 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:46 how often is the debian repo of trunk updated? 03:42:37 these seem quite old http://crawl.develz.org/debian/pool/trunk/c/crawl/ 03:43:05 -!- Notipsum has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:31 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:57 myrmidette: Not very often, IIRC. 03:56:36 -!- schistosomatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:56:45 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10:40 Some draconians in evilmike_zot_entry_castle spawn without cloaks by Sar 04:19:10 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:36 -!- Elsi has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:04 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:18 -!- ZombieChicken has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:30:58 -!- Quashie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:06 -!- moq has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:33:37 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:33:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:44:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:20 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:50:18 does treeform prevent banishment? 04:50:29 no 04:50:36 thanks 04:50:36 -!- myrmidette has left ##crawl-dev 04:56:22 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1243-g3bc8b16: Simplify Xom's amusement at mutations 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 55-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bc8b168a1d0 04:57:04 -!- kait has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:18 -!- sanka has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:08 -!- myrmidette has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:32 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 05:09:15 -!- sgiratch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13:32 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:17:09 where can I search through commits by content? 05:17:18 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:29 you have to use %git but I don't remember the syntax 05:20:32 %git mephitic 05:20:32 Could not find commit mephitic (git returned 128) 05:20:36 %git :mephitic 05:20:36 Could not find commit :mephitic (git returned 128) 05:20:38 %git :/mephitic 05:20:42 07DracoOmega02 * 0.13-a0-2477-geaae114: Adjust the list of spells which trigger battlesphere 10(11 months ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=eaae11492e9e 05:20:47 ok, I think that is it 05:21:42 any place outside the channel? 05:23:12 query cheibriados 05:23:25 all bot commands work in queries too (except for editing learndb) 05:30:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:51 !seen PleasingFungus 05:34:52 I last saw PleasingFungus at Tue Jun 3 06:19:34 2014 UTC (4h 15m 18s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140524030204]'. 05:38:58 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:44:58 -!- SpongeJr has quit [Quit: *squish*] 05:47:26 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:47 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:03:38 -!- Kramin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:42 weird costs on equipping ring of regen sound not great to me, since all the other problems that minmay pointed out would still exist 06:10:05 and the whole thing that you do with rings is swap them depending on the situation, having one complicated exception to that sounds pretty awkward 06:10:25 -!- Kramin42 is now known as Kramin 06:11:18 -!- Deshter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:11:36 some cost or other on the spell sounds fine conceptually, no clue if drain would actually work for that 06:11:45 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:35 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:09 !lg . -log 06:16:10 1423. gammafunk, XL4 HEIE, T:1395: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20140602-121216.txt 06:16:38 !lg . -log 06:16:39 1423. gammafunk, XL4 HEIE, T:1395: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/gammafunk/morgue-gammafunk-20140602-121216.txt 06:19:35 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:20:19 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:37 -!- Kramin has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:32:11 -!- NeremWorld has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:45:44 Also, the precedent of an anti-swapping mechanic just got removed (gourmand). 06:47:58 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:26 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:08 A drawback for the spell sounds still alright to me. 06:52:08 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:17 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:53:37 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:13 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:29 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:59:27 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:33 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:04:57 -!- ckyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:22 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:41 -!- eb_mobile has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:44 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:11:18 -!- Deshter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:12:38 -!- eb_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:13:11 -!- Euph0ria has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:35 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:18:35 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:35 !tell reaverb 51bfb8de72b7 uses player_mutation_level in places where it shouldn't. eg tags.cc, if you're transformed on load mutations won't be removed properly. possibly it's wrong in other places too? 07:21:35 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let reaverb know. 07:22:27 -!- Mateji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:11 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:25:55 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:27:59 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:36 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:32:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:35:04 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:03 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:03 mpr("This blood tastes really weird!"); 07:48:04 mutate(RANDOM_MUTATION, "mutagenic blood"); 07:48:09 was that ever a thing I wonder 07:50:27 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:20 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 07:58:05 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:01 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:59:52 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:51 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:28 maybe if you bottle the blood of a mutating corpse? 08:02:43 I dunno 08:03:26 well yes, but that's not allowed currently 08:03:31 I'm wondering if it ever was 08:03:43 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:03:48 how about an hp cost for regen spell? so it'd be like a loan 08:04:00 I think if you did that 08:04:02 no one would ever use regen again 08:04:25 that depends on the cost 08:04:43 Well on the light drain thing, my feeling is that it won't really prevent anyone from using the spell after a given fight, although it will prevent stringing regen casts 08:05:29 plenty of people use sublimation, after all 08:05:37 and borg's for that matter 08:05:37 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:05:42 I foresee it just being an annoying semi-limitation 08:05:56 how would the hp cost work? 08:06:51 you cast it and lose hp, and then regain that hp (and more) afterwards 08:07:00 but in a short fight it wouldn't be worth it 08:07:02 -!- CSDCS has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:18 -!- HDA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:18 well, regen is most useful when you've received significant damage, so taking on even more seems like unecessary risk 08:08:25 I'm not sure the spell would be usefull then 08:08:53 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:53 it is a more meaningful cost than a bit of drain 08:09:37 otoh if the regen you did recieve was quite high 08:09:42 I suppose it could be worth it then 08:09:58 "cast this for VS-like regen, just hope something nasty doesn't wander into view" 08:10:01 -!- us17 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:10:01 -!- us17_ is now known as us17 08:10:02 -!- us17 has quit [Changing host] 08:10:20 seems kind of workable 08:10:31 just rename it vine stalker form 08:10:44 Basil will give it instant thumbs up 08:10:45 it can be tmut instead of charms then too, so we won't have to remove it!! 08:10:55 because charms are verbotten 08:11:04 *verboten 08:11:07 -!- debo has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:56 !learn set ohloh see {gitstats[1]} 08:11:56 ohloh[1/1]: see {gitstats[1]} 08:12:09 ??gitstats 08:12:09 gitstats[1/3]: http://www.ohloh.net/p/stonesoup 08:12:41 wow, almost 500k 08:12:47 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:13:11 good thing we have a new source of dogmatic opposition to a random spell school just when the previous one disappeared 08:13:50 haha 08:14:13 i guess the thing with draining as opposed to hp cost is that possibly it'd work better at discouraging casting regen repeatedly after combat? 08:14:13 -!- allbefore has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:14:31 yes, it does discourage repeated casting (drain) 08:14:42 but not a single cast after most fights 08:15:02 "one fight" can easilly turn out ot be multiple 08:15:18 in which case I guess the drain cost is doing its job 08:15:18 true, that is a problem with hp cost 08:15:41 tuning it to be shorter duration/stronger effect/noticeable draining per cast could work there maybe 08:16:00 right, yeah it could be workable with the right drain/duration combination 08:16:16 heavy drain is probably just too annoying 08:17:21 -!- Patashu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:38 also since necro spell downsides are being discussed, maybe now is a good time to double the hp loss from borg again or something 08:18:40 wheals: is kudo rank just how many commits over a short period of time 08:18:53 seems like it's a pretty bad metric, but the stats are still nice 08:19:31 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:35 no idea, i was just making a redirect 08:20:23 .. 08:20:23 has a well established, mature codebase 08:20:23 maintained by a very large development team 08:20:32 well tyvm ohloh 08:20:45 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:20:48 and it took an estimated "100 years of effort" 08:20:48 oh yeah also i did start working on self-only sublimation, i saw that in the backlog and forgot to mention it 08:20:59 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:18 yeah, that's nice. I'm moving along with removing chunks in chunkless 08:21:51 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:54 i like how n7 is the third person on the first page in terms of first commit date 08:21:55 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:05 had no idea bh had been around for quite so long either 08:22:19 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:49 oh there's a code browser 08:24:54 too bad it doesn't seem to work in chrome for me 08:26:33 MarvinPA: sounds great, thanks! 08:30:29 oh, i was thinking about ghouls in chunkless 08:31:09 i'd suggest letting permafood restore rotting (but maybe not hp?) in the same way that new chunks do now 08:32:15 then corpses could restore the equivalent of three (or so) rotten chunks, and change "you like flesh, especially rotten" to "you like meat, especially raw" 08:33:05 I wondered if we could Ghouls allow to pick up corpses, which would then result in "a body part", a new item which can rot. That way we could keep the current gameplay without changes. (At the cost of a new item.) 08:36:17 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:21 strangely enough, I was thinking about the opposite food change for NetHack: keep corpses, remove permafodo 08:36:24 *permafood 08:36:48 because my problem with permafood is that it's basically a global timer compared to the start of the game 08:37:02 like, you must clear X levels in (X*Y) turns 08:37:30 which means that if you're "ahead" on the food clock, optimal play is to go farm for a while 08:40:26 ais523_: no, because there are many things that cost food besides time. 08:40:50 right 08:40:57 I guess you're basically using "time in the dungeon" as a cost 08:41:08 so if those effects are powerful enough, that should serve to discourage farming 08:41:13 because they're more cost-effective 08:43:34 yeah, that is the plan 08:44:26 Since Nethack uses corspes for much more than just a clock (it's a source of intrinsics), I can understand the desire to do it the other way around. 08:45:08 it's also because in NetHack, you have a stack of enough food rations for the rest of the game by like D:15, and enough C- and K-rations for pretty much anything imaginable once you hit the Castle 08:46:26 yes, problematic design 08:47:30 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:49:19 problematic item generation probabilities, at least 08:49:36 half the problem with maintaining NetHack is that like half the problems are really superficial and easily fixed, and the other half are fundamental 08:49:41 and it's not always clear which is which 08:50:38 -!- CKyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:46 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:40 are missile plus and plu2 (the item props) used any more to anyone's knowledge? 08:52:51 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:21 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:01 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:54:23 -!- sgiratch has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:56:43 -!- zxc232 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:56:57 -!- gnuvince has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57:25 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:58:31 -!- CKyle_ has quit [Quit: CKyle_] 09:00:20 -!- KKirk has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:00:44 <|amethys1> gammafunk: other than stationary nets? 09:00:54 oh, huh 09:01:02 not sure if that case would matter 09:01:09 but yeah, aside from that? 09:01:49 -!- CKyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:29 <|amethys1> I don't *think* so 09:03:42 <|amethys1> there is some monster.cc code that still refers to missile plus 09:04:43 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:45 <|amethys1> (for deciding when to switch missiles) 09:05:11 <|amethys1> actuall, I guess only for deciding when to switch tomahawks 09:05:30 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:44 probably copied from deciding when to switch spears/hand axes/clubs? 09:06:26 there's a small item equivalence comparison that is special cased for missiles; it also checks item.special, which is relevant for brand 09:06:31 but maybe it doesn't need the plus checks 09:06:51 (I only found it because it's currently also special-cased for chunks) 09:07:07 <|amethys1> wheals: darts I think, because it refers to get_ammo_brand too 09:07:29 <|amethys1> gammafunk: where? 09:09:07 !function items_similar 09:09:08 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/quiver.cc;hb=HEAD#l608 09:09:10 |amethys1: ^^ 09:09:25 er 09:09:26 no 09:09:34 that's odd 09:09:49 |amethys1: it's items_similar in items.cc 09:10:03 I'd give you line numbers by mine are modified 09:10:09 <|amethys1> I've got it 09:10:22 -!- ckyle has quit [Quit: ckyle] 09:11:24 <|amethys1> gammafunk: yeah, in the missiles case that is probably safe to remove 09:11:38 I assume the special check is still relevant? 09:11:43 for e.g. brand? 09:11:59 <|amethys1> gammafunk: yeah 09:12:00 -!- radinms has quit [] 09:12:03 ok 09:12:11 <|amethys1> gammafunk: and with chunks going away I think that would be all that's left 09:12:25 <|amethys1> if (item1.base_type == OBJ_MISSILES && item1.special != item2.special) return false 09:12:41 <|amethys1> hm 09:12:46 <|amethys1> plus2 might be relevant 09:13:03 <|amethys1> if this is used for merging stacks on the ground and not just in inventory 09:13:15 <|amethys1> because of the stationary net thing 09:13:47 hrm, I guess non-stationary nets could merge with the stationary ones 09:14:04 <|amethys1> then you wouldn't be able to pick up any nets if you are netted 09:14:11 <|amethys1> even one you just dropped 09:14:19 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 09:14:20 which really prevents furious net retaliation! 09:14:30 I'll show you how to throw nets Mr. Gnoll! 09:14:55 <|amethyst> gammafunk: my worry would be the order in which they merge 09:15:24 -!- NotKintak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:15:28 <|amethyst> gammafunk: which would require special-case code elsewhere to ensure the merged stack keeps the plus2 of the stationary net 09:15:49 <|amethyst> gammafunk: Also 3 nets (holding you) looks kind of funny 09:15:50 yeah, I guess it's fine to have obj_missile special cased to check special and plus2, perhaps indicate why with a comment 09:16:06 <|amethyst> I might be even more specific and do the plus2 check only on nets 09:16:10 <|amethyst> or even 09:16:11 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:18 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:16:20 <|amethyst> is_stationary_net(item1) != is_stationary_net(item2) 09:16:30 yeah ok 09:16:31 <|amethyst> then it's self-documenting :) 09:17:37 perhaps I can turn this into some kind of if (a < b < c) conditional for added fun... 09:20:05 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:20:40