00:01:26 elliptic: Sorry ^ 00:02:02 Grunt: elliptic said he was rewriting Gozag's code and ideally we shouldn't push changes.. 00:02:08 cbro ran out of diskspace 00:02:14 uh-oh 00:02:14 -!- KurzedMetal1 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:02:15 will be ready to go in a couple minutes 00:02:24 it's ok. I'll magically get 20% back 00:02:25 (I hope my save is intact :( ) 00:02:28 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:50 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:03:56 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:03 PleasingFungus: I think you'd want to close the returned file descriptor from mkstemp before we open the file for writing ourselves. 00:04:04 well, 7& 00:04:06 7% 00:04:08 sorry :C 00:04:31 qoala: oddly, that doesn't seem to cause any problems 00:05:38 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:44 Yeah, I think it might be "safe" most of the time as long as we never write to g_fd, but it's safer to close it. And I think also prevents us from accumulating open files 00:06:00 hm. what if we close the descriptor after we do 00:06:07 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:12 safe_file_writer sw(string(g_filname), "wb", true); 00:06:32 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:43 in the vague hope of keeping other processes from poking at the file between when we close the fd & open it for writing 00:06:53 -!- Kaidessa has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:07:14 So opening the file for writing already creates an empty file, so I think we're guaranteed that no other crawl process will try to take it (except possibly for one trying to load a bones file) 00:07:32 true 00:07:56 would having the descriptor open prevent other processes from being able to read it? 00:08:13 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-650-g1538c87 (34) 00:08:15 I know that reading an empty bones file causes crawl to crash, so I'd prefer to avoid that possibility 00:08:31 *attempting to load a ghost from an empty bones file 00:08:32 I have 4 crawl processes pegging the CPU at 98% 00:08:37 (possibly we should fix that too?) 00:08:47 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:09:07 http://pastebin.com/GxrtcvFw 00:09:24 I think I know which 3 users they are, but is there any way to easily tell? 00:09:31 I'm not sure, actually. 00:09:56 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:05 Yeah, I guess I never thought what prevents other crawl processes from crashing on trying to read the bones file that's still being written 00:10:22 there's a window now, it's just very brief 00:10:44 How would people take letting Ds worship TSO and Ely? 00:10:44 Well, it's probably better not to leave a window that allows random crashes if we can help it :P 00:10:51 true 00:11:39 cbrotest (L1 FeBe) (D:1) 00:11:42 cbrotest (L1 VSMo) (D:1) 00:11:42 probably the best approach would be to change the ghost-loading code to recognize empty files (and so not crash) 00:11:43 kaibutsu (L16 VSMo) (Spider:3) 00:11:46 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:04 not sure the window is avoidable, unless the 'keeping the fd open while opening the file writer' trick actually works 00:12:19 reaverb: Ely is the only one most poeple wouldn't immediately reject. TSO is only slightly less racist than Zin 00:12:21 those crashes were "intentional" 00:12:29 Red_Bucket: Says who? 00:12:33 But Ely offers "salvation" even to demons and undead. 00:12:51 Though if Ds is allowed, what would justify not letting undead too. 00:12:51 yeah wiki suggests it really doesn't 00:13:36 Red_Bucket: Nothing, which is why I would also allow undead ASAP 00:13:53 muhe sounds Quite Strong 00:13:56 Undead definitely cannot be allowed to have ely because of the food situation 00:14:01 Probably add some silly justification of why MuHe cann exist. 00:14:16 and ghhe. and vphe, really. 00:14:29 This is why I only said Ds. 00:14:42 [22:13] reaverb Red_Bucket: Nothing, which is why I would also allow undead ASAP 00:14:45 ? 00:14:59 "as soon as possible" != "any time soon" 00:15:12 ... 00:15:16 um 00:15:26 PleasingFungus: it looks like the locking mechanism is triggered by us on loading the file. 00:15:27 Ok, can we just drop that point? 00:15:36 sure 00:15:36 Ds only, ignoring undead for now. 00:15:43 So mkstemp isn't actually locking the file against our readers 00:16:00 Because every single time I bring this up somebody goes ds -> undead -> muhe -> etc. 00:16:03 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:16:13 qoala: yeah, I see 00:16:23 There's the small issue of Ds cannot wield holy wrath 00:16:24 Grunt: let me know if your game got borked... I hope it didn't 00:16:33 So we probably just need to make the file reader safely handle empty files 00:16:34 So, would anybody object to letting Ds and only Ds worship TSO and Ely? 00:16:39 qoala: yeah, pretty much 00:16:40 I need to set up an alert to warn me when I'm getting low on space 00:16:57 still not zin, since they have the mutations? 00:17:01 Red_Bucket: Oh yes, forgot that's a thing. 00:17:07 it'd be weird given that tso gives piety for ds kills 00:17:21 wheals: Trog gives hu piety for hu kills. 00:17:27 though I guess even with that, if (1) mkstemp creates the file (2) another process opens the file for reading (3) first process locks and starts writing (4) second process reads partial... 00:17:29 ugh 00:17:33 reaverb: did you decide to do any work on unifying +umbra an +halo into a single +/-light value 00:17:34 and demonic guardian 00:17:35 wheals: Not zin since random conducts that don't make any sense are his thing. 00:17:46 johnstein: needed to restart the level I was on, but okay other than that! 00:17:52 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:17:59 Red_Bucket: I do not care enough to do anything, maybe if I get in the mood someday. Patches welcome! 00:18:02 Hm. Would Ds get an advantage in pacifying demons? Or did that same-race special case get killed at some point? 00:18:21 qoala: I love race conditions 00:18:37 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:42 Oh man, DsHe to pacify hell would be pretty funny 00:18:44 whew 00:18:49 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:50 -!- rast- is now known as rast 00:18:58 wait, I can't tell if this might only be specific to certain builds of mkstemp, but it looks like at least some can take fcntl flags 00:18:59 Ds would presumably only get the bonus against actual demonspawn enemies 00:19:21 |amethyst: greensnark: did you guys come up with an off-server ttyrec hosting solution? 00:19:30 we're probably restricted by the homebrew windows mkstemp 00:19:34 in syscalls.cc 00:19:35 oh right 00:19:37 Does dithmenos increase the bonuses of umbra? 00:19:40 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:19:46 unless we want to implement that functionality ourselves... 00:19:49 i dont see why he would 00:19:54 Red_Bucket: Unlikely. 00:19:54 reaverb: Trog grants extra piety for spellcaster kills and he basically doesn't allow spellcasters 00:19:54 since again this can already occur in current code, I think I can live with leaving a comment about it, but not fixing this for now 00:19:56 reaverb: Ds of TSO feels weird to me given that TSO likes to throw cleansing flame explosions around, and these do extra damage to demonspawn players 00:19:58 Is multi-process crawl supported on windows? :P 00:20:06 haha 00:20:33 clearly you've forgotten about cwin, the new crawl server hosted on microsoft azure 00:20:41 o.o 00:20:46 I made it up 00:20:48 sorry 00:20:50 it's not real 00:20:57 Ds of ely doesn't feel especially problematic to me, but it isn't that interesting either 00:21:03 elliptic: Maybe we can disable Holy weakness a not wielding holy wrath as part of worshipping a good god? 00:21:17 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:28 that is weird too 00:21:47 elliptic: Banning combos seems even less interesting to me. 00:21:51 idk. I think it's interesting that demonspawn are restricted, and can't go zin/tso for the late game, like most other races. 00:21:53 -!- Kittykai has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:55 it makes their late game different. 00:22:04 yeah, that's a good point actually 00:22:11 Do Ds still get racial bonuses for demon weapons? 00:22:14 no 00:22:23 being unable to use a holy weapon actually makes Ds more interesting in extended 00:22:29 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:22:39 elliptic: I consider that a problem w/holy wrath, btw. 00:22:44 PleasingFungus: it uses a VM to run Debian, right? 00:23:01 possibly, but I don't think this is the right way to address it 00:23:06 SamB: yes, but the debian box is actually just running crawl in WINE 00:23:16 *the debian vm 00:23:30 I was thinking halo and umbra power could scale with size, but the things that create them currently aren't balanced for that 00:23:32 that supports DGL now? 00:23:44 probably not 00:23:46 but it'd be funny 00:23:49 yeah 00:23:59 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:11 Also non-good gods not being good in Extended is a problem with extended. 00:24:21 reaverb: that isn't a problem because it isn't true 00:24:22 so 00:24:48 elliptic: I suspected as such, but then Ds restriction being a distinction doesn't seem to be true either :D 00:25:28 specific non-good gods are relatively weak in extended. 00:25:35 oka, trog, arguably fedhas. 00:25:52 PleasingFungus: Yes, defintely. Yred is really bad. 00:25:57 and beogh 00:26:15 But beogh is bad in not extended 00:26:15 yred is the only god i can think of who gets much worse in extended 00:26:16 You've never seen Beogh ckr players, have you. 00:26:17 trog is plenty good in extended (and everywhere else) 00:26:20 I have not 00:26:28 !hs * -5 00:26:31 (I guess I murdered the Beogh Tomb secret tech) 00:26:34 3216261/3216265. 4tharraofdagon the Archmage (L27 DEFE of Vehumet), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-05-02 01:35:50, with 50940363 points after 28416 turns and 9:19:50. 00:26:36 !hs * -6 00:26:38 3216260/3216265. Yermak the Ninja (L22 SpAs of Dithmenos), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-01-18 01:19:16, with 48050858 points after 29929 turns and 8:16:23. 00:26:42 hmm 00:26:43 Grunt: how much of that was because of bugs with monsters not knowing how to use spells against your allies, though... 00:26:48 !hs * beogh 00:26:49 !hs * god=beogh 00:26:50 34222. hanon12 the Slayer (L23 LOFi of Beogh), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-01-19 13:42:12, with 47803653 points after 30139 turns and 6:03:03. 00:26:50 34222. hanon12 the Slayer (L23 LOFi of Beogh), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-01-19 13:42:12, with 47803653 points after 30139 turns and 6:03:03. 00:26:53 elliptic: yes 00:26:54 Trog is fine in Extended, even good for soemthing like Vp or DD 00:27:01 !hs * -7 00:27:02 or mu 00:27:03 3216259/3216265. hanon12 the Slayer (L23 LOFi of Beogh), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-01-19 13:42:12, with 47803653 points after 30139 turns and 6:03:03. 00:27:23 anyway nobody is really arguing that TSO is the best god in extended in general... but that's fine, some god has to be the best 00:27:28 That doesn't count because lava orcs don't exist. 00:27:32 haha 00:27:34 however non-TSO non-Ds can still find and use holy weapons 00:27:47 the highest TSO score is !hs * -8 00:28:10 I probably wouldn't gauge the power of a god by their high scores 00:28:13 speedruns are not really a good measure for this, yes 00:28:20 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:06 it's more about not being useless, then 00:29:43 reaverb: anyway, many characters that start out worshipping e.g. oka will transition into other gods for extended; generally they'll transition into tso/zin, since they're strongest for extended. other gods are still strong, and can be stronger for certain chars (veh conjurers, etc), but the transition into good gods is pretty typical; so it's interesting that ds can't do that standard thing 00:30:06 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:11 PleasingFungus: I consider that a problem with so many going to tso/zin, though. 00:30:45 I guess that doesn't change the fact it might make letting Ds worship tso be less intereseting. 00:30:54 yeah. 00:30:56 tso's weird. 00:31:10 holiness is weird. 00:31:14 being good in extended is sort of TSO's design currently 00:31:17 yeah 00:31:25 If I was designing a Roguelike from scrach it would not feature holiness. 00:31:29 PleasingFungus: oh right. a good locking mechanism isn't susceptible to the race condition I described above. fcntl should be an exclusive-write shared-read lock 00:31:41 So the writer would fail to acquire the lock if a reader has already grabbed it 00:31:45 fr: condition race 00:31:46 Still not ideal 00:31:46 you can certainly argue that this isn't good, but it would be difficult to address this without completely reworking TSO 00:32:14 it's weird that extended is 95% demons 00:32:30 as opposed to 2% demons (or w/e) for the rest of the game 00:32:41 but we should be able to design things such that we don't crash. (Possible failure mode of fail to save an otherwise valid bones, as long as we can find a way to delete the file) 00:34:18 can we use fcntl, though? it'd be good for the game to be compileable on windows 00:34:26 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:30 I guess we could use a flag to determine whether we use fcntl or not 00:34:32 file_lock is already built on fcntl on non-windows 00:34:58 s/file_lock/lock_file/ 00:35:35 And it looks like we're using some manner of windows specific file locking that appears to also be exclusive-write in windows 00:36:12 So closing the mkstemp file descriptor and opening the file with our safe writer will have the same possibility of failure as our existing code 00:36:12 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:41 -!- Kaidessa has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:36:54 I think the only thing you need to add is to actually close the mkstemp-returned file descriptor 00:37:04 yeah I have that in a revised patch 00:37:08 I'd also suggest randomizing which bonesfile we pick 00:37:15 it's already essentially random 00:37:20 since in the second commit you're already loading all applicable bonesfiles 00:37:35 Not quite 00:37:43 mm? 00:37:44 if the bones for a level are never fully cleared 00:37:54 the one that generated as zzzzz will never get loaded 00:37:55 oh I see, some bones could get buried 00:37:58 true 00:37:58 yeah 00:38:34 Other than that, I don't see any glaring issues. 00:38:35 ok, that's a simple fix. 00:38:39 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:47 -!- MiraclePrism has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:39:57 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:18 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:30 (While I think the verdict was "no" I'm glad I got some more discussion on the Ds - good god thing) 00:41:08 it was a good discussion, mostly 00:41:52 I'm not having a meta-discussion on such a first discussion. 00:42:17 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:42:19 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 00:42:20 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:45 well, I'm enjoying this meta-metadiscussion, then. 00:43:54 -!- Cheibrodos has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:16 Is anyone else working on something that bumps the minor version? Because I should probably just submit my current patch before I have to update it any more times. 00:45:10 It only simplifies the world_reacts unrand hook, since I hadn't settled on how to do the on_kill hook 00:45:23 !tell |amethyst Here's a patch for the ghost issue I was talking about last night: http://sprunge.us/VJAc Tested and seems to be working. 00:45:24 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 00:45:25 I'll save that for when something goes horribly wrong and another dev leaves or something. 00:45:42 successfully didn't use !send, this time. very proud of myself. 00:46:31 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:47:41 I'm uncertain if the "close(g_fd) // not needed" comment is clear enough that the file wasn't needed, but idk :P 00:48:27 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:32 Does anyone have any thoughts on unrands having special code hooks on_kill? 00:49:36 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:39 Or maybe just stop trying to shoehorn wyrmbane into the melee_effect hook and just have custom code in melee_attack::handle_phase_died, even though that'd be fairly ugly 00:49:46 oh 00:50:57 03elliptic02 07* 0.15-a0-651-g203b253: Gozag ability tweaks and interface improvements. 10(44 minutes ago, 5 files, 91+ 57-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=203b2536c6f5 00:50:59 yeah that's a confusing comment if you don't know what it means 00:50:59 ok, fixing that and one other comment. 00:51:38 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:59 -!- Kittykai has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:52:29 Naming request: Turn Flaming/Flame Freezing/Frost and other similarly named brands into...one name. bows of frost vs sword of freezing just seems silly to keep track of. 00:52:34 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:52:59 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:53:11 They are actually two separate brands. 00:53:14 Are the launcher/ammo brands still 100% elemental damage? 00:53:17 Yeah 00:54:34 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:44 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-651-g203b253 (34) 00:54:48 !tell |amethyst Slightly improved patch (removed two confusing comments): http://sprunge.us/DNDa 00:54:48 -!- File200 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:48 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 00:54:55 very exciting improvements 00:57:57 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:56 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:59:07 Any idea why I don't get messages for creatures spawning in LOS? Complete lack of "comes into view" and I've checked all instance of "mute" in my .rc. 01:00:20 spawning in LOS? on the orb run? 01:00:26 or in the abyss? 01:00:47 Curently in the abyss. 01:00:54 s/ren/rren/ 01:01:08 -!- Zephryn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:01:36 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:11 mysterious! 01:02:15 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140505030202]] 01:03:24 -!- partyhat has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:04:20 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:37 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:31 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:07:01 -!- Kaidessa has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:07:30 -!- ChongLi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:51 abyss is weird wrt things coming into view now for some reason 01:07:59 it doesnt even always alert you when exits come into view 01:08:51 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:44 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:22 Recalculate cache of equipped unrands and bitset improvements by qoala 01:11:22 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:08 ^ patches 01:13:08 -!- ahahaha has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:13 -!- Cheibrodos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:15:20 qoala: they aren't 100% elemental anymore, no 01:15:42 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:15:52 and yeah, i reported not mentioning exits coming into view 01:16:50 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:19 -!- absolutego has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:35 -!- Kittykai has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:23:29 -!- twig has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:25:44 -!- Deckard_Pain has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:39 -!- P_R_Deltoid has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:42 -!- Kaidessa has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:33:25 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 01:37:26 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:44:41 -!- Kittykai has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52:42 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:55 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:54:03 -!- Muse has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:54:45 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:00 -!- Kaidessa has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:59:14 -!- notcluie is now known as notlucy 01:59:56 -!- notlucy is now known as notcluie 02:00:56 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Quit: Connection reset by pier.] 02:01:04 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01:08 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Client Quit] 02:06:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07:07 -!- qoala has quit [Quit: Abscond!] 02:08:01 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:09:33 -!- Red_Bucket has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:13:53 why is SpCj marked as a good combo? It uses one of their -3 Apts. 02:14:31 !apt sp 02:14:32 Sp: Fighting: -2*, Short: 1, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -3*, Polearms: -3*, Staves: -3*, Slings: 2, Bows: 2, Xbows: 0, Throw: 1, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 4!, Stealth: 5!, Shields: -3*, UC: -2*, Splcast: 2, Conj: -3*, Hexes: 2, Charms: 4!, Summ: -2, Nec: -1, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -1, Earth: -1, Poison: 0, Inv: 0, Evo: 4!, Exp: -1, HP: -3, MP: 3! 02:16:48 Bcadren: apts are not everything 02:16:53 Experimental (gods) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-435-gcc1328a 02:17:08 ??conjurer challenge 02:17:08 conjuration challenge[1/2]: Win a pure conjurer: magic dart, searing ray, IMB, force lance, IOOD, no other spells, and no damaging or affecting any monsters with anything else. 02:17:16 ??conjuration challenge[2] 02:17:17 conjuration challenge[2/2]: Won by: jle (3 runes, SpWz, 0.9) 02:17:48 Because of the ability to kite, i guess 02:18:37 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:00 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:55 -!- Mateji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:15 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:25:19 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:26:30 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:59 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28:41 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 02:38:05 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:39:37 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 02:40:25 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:54 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:56 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:44:03 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 02:46:18 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:17 -!- Laraso has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:36 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:18 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:19 Berserkitis now triggers on ranged attacks by crate 03:02:09 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:03:23 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:03 03elliptic02 07* 0.15-a0-652-g23cdfa8: Make Gozag shop placement saner. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=23cdfa81884d 03:07:05 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 03:08:44 -!- Mateji has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:09:33 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:11:09 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:14:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:14:29 "Ghouls and necrophages can no longer equip weapons or armour." not player Gh, I assume? 03:14:40 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:19 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:17:28 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:29 -!- rast- is now known as rast 03:17:32 you assume wrong 03:17:48 -!- Keanan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:03 Seriously though, it's making Yred less fiddly 10:01:47 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:47 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 10:01:47 oh, chei died 10:01:47 <|amethyst> %git c7c7e55 10:01:47 Could not find commit c7c7e55 (git returned 128) 10:01:47 <|amethyst> and chei is probably updating now 10:01:47 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 10:01:48 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:48 <|amethyst> slow server, hence my desire to move it to CSZO 10:01:51 <|amethyst> and chei is probably updating now 10:01:53 <|amethyst> doh 10:01:54 <|amethyst> %git c7c7e55 10:01:54 Could not find commit c7c7e55 (git returned 128) 10:01:57 <|amethyst> %git 10:01:58 07PleasingFungus02 {reaverb} * 0.15-a0-656-g66f2601: Factor out _place_player() from load_level() 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 40+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=66f2601e51ef 10:02:02 |amethsyt: Probably doesn't exist 10:02:07 I was testing if it existed. 10:02:30 Because I'm looking at a local branch and can't tell if I pushed it. Might of squashed it, though. 10:02:49 I did. 10:02:51 %git a840274186 10:02:51 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-454-ga840274: Refactor _altar_prayer() a bit 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 19+ 27-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a840274186e1 10:03:28 would be nice if the other servers were updated too 10:04:05 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:06:08 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: I don't think it's an issue currently because D:1 doesn't have bones and no other branch has 10 levels, but wouldn't that be a problem with the substring comparison? 10:06:18 -!- Grunt_ is now known as Grunt 10:06:37 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: might be better to look for "basefile" and "basefile_*" instead of just "basefile*" 10:07:05 mmm. is it possible for player saves to contain a ".", but not a "_"? 10:09:16 <|amethyst> player names can't contain "." so that's not an issue 10:09:25 <|amethyst> it's when one level's name is a prefix of another's 10:09:34 <|amethyst> bones.D-1 vs bones.D-11 10:09:36 oh, you're right 10:09:37 <|amethyst> level names won't have _ 10:09:42 true 10:09:44 hm 10:10:09 <|amethyst> (well, they might have it in the branch theoretically, but not after the hyphen 10:10:11 -!- nooodl has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:38 <|amethyst> hm, I guess Temple versus TempleOfDoom could be a problem if those were things 10:10:50 fr 10:11:31 <|amethyst> as long as you don't make bones.cs it's fine 10:11:46 <|amethyst> so nobody make uncapitalised "cs" a branch abbreviation :) 10:12:01 World's Most Fragile Code 10:12:03 <|amethyst> "it" = player-bones collisions 10:12:30 <|amethyst> we could move bones to saves/bones on the server if we cared 10:12:32 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:12:34 <|amethyst> servers 10:13:40 |amethyst: Zig:1? 10:13:49 if we were going to do that (which I like), that'd also be a good place to put the divider between old bones files and new ones 10:13:51 in terms of names 10:14:19 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:58 <|amethyst> oh 10:15:11 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: Grunt has a good point, I guess it is possible now 10:15:21 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: so you'd load zig:15 ghosts on Zig:1 10:15:45 also, zig 10-19 10:16:06 not the World's Hugest Bug but I was already sold on fixing it 10:16:58 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:18:43 oh yeah - qoala and I were talking about this last night - there's a possible race condition in the ghost code (the old code & the new code). 10:18:55 !send PleasingFungus epic bugs 10:18:55 Sending epic bugs to PleasingFungus. 10:19:04 probably not, just an extremely rare crash bug 10:19:39 the save code opens the file, then closes it, then re-opens it, locks it, and writes to it. 10:20:15 if another crawl process tries to read that bones file between when it's created and when it's locked, it'll read an empty bones file & crash. 10:20:38 probably the solution to this is to make crawl not crash when it tries to read an empty bones file. 10:21:19 -!- radinms has quit [] 10:21:56 since fixing the actual race condition is very difficult - mkstemp has a fcntl flag that would be useful, but we'd need to re-implement it for windows. 10:22:24 <|amethyst> and we'd need to add an interface for safe_file_writer to take an FD 10:23:38 yeah 10:23:39 Who made the "haha you'll never get enough gold to buy this" Gozag altar vault again? 10:24:11 nicolae, of course 10:24:15 !vault gozag_zags_fifth_avenue 10:24:16 Couldn't find gozag_zags_fifth_avenue in the Crawl source tree 10:24:22 !vault nicolae_gozag_zags_fifth_avenue 10:24:22 Couldn't find nicolae_gozag_zags_fifth_avenue in the Crawl source tree 10:24:24 hm 10:24:30 !tell nicolae c - 5400 gold the amulet "Toemysku" {rMut rElec} ;^) 10:24:31 Bloax: OK, I'll let nicolae know. 10:24:46 a bargain at half the price! 10:25:28 Is it really that hard to get 5400 gold with Gozag? 10:25:32 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: btw, maybe you can use starts_with instead of that three-argument compare 10:25:36 Now I wouldn't spend it on that amulet.. 10:26:16 ah, I didn't know that function existed! 10:26:23 that'd be much more readable, yes 10:27:24 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: also, const string &filename = *it; 10:27:30 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: that way it doesn't have to copy 10:27:56 <|amethyst> (or without the const, but you don't write to it so might as well make it a const ref) 10:29:25 OK, done. 10:29:39 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:29:44 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: Also, not sure if you should maybe have _find_ghost_file return a random match instead of the first 10:30:09 it does, in some version of the patch 10:30:31 return bonefiles[random2(bonefiles.size())]; 10:30:36 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 10:30:44 <|amethyst> hmm 10:30:48 since otherwise you could in principle have the problem of some poor d-3_zzzzzz ghost getting buried 10:31:04 <|amethyst> Just in case, I would use ui_random there 10:31:06 while everyone else's ghosts have fun 10:31:17 <|amethyst> so the presence of ghosts doesn't affect the RNG when you give it a seed 10:31:23 <|amethyst> for reproducibility of bot testing 10:31:32 oh, I didn't think of that 10:32:35 <|amethyst> (I mean, if you're loading the ghost I guess you're being influenced anyway, so probably you'd have ghosts turned off and it wouldn't actually matter) 10:39:15 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:55 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:11 what's the Correct Way to check if a file exists? 10:40:27 given a filename 10:40:29 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:41:50 %git 10:41:50 07PleasingFungus02 {reaverb} * 0.15-a0-656-g66f2601: Factor out _place_player() from load_level() 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 40+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=66f2601e51ef 10:41:53 %git HEAD^ 10:41:53 07PleasingFungus02 {reaverb} * 0.15-a0-655-gd5aa2ac: Factor out _make_level() from load_level() 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 62+ 47-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d5aa2acc24e6 10:42:05 not sure what happened there but it seems to have broken compilation? 10:42:13 that's not so good 10:42:20 MarvinPA: Hmm, I compile tested. 10:42:25 Debug compilation? 10:42:32 yeah 10:42:39 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:59 drat, let me see the damage. 10:43:10 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0a1/20140505030202]] 10:43:21 Heh, PleasingFungus flet. 10:43:25 s/flet/fled/ 10:43:42 oh i also thought those two commits had the same title which confused me more 10:43:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:45 Walking fungi can't flee. 10:43:46 but i guess they don't 10:43:56 MarvinPA: Yes, just same format. 10:44:04 Arguably they should have been squashed. 10:44:12 But that would of made this harder to fix! 10:44:51 yes that's probably just me not reading properly 10:45:50 MarvinPA: Hmm, found a suspicious bit change. 10:46:04 Moving some code from withing #ifdef DEBUG_LEVEL_LOAD to outside of it. 10:47:41 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:47:49 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:09 -!- Thundamoo has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:16 Oh, actually the error is completely differant. 10:49:30 Just a drpf() calling a non-local variable. 10:49:48 Okay we working here? 10:49:49 Thundamoo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:49:59 Awesome 10:50:04 !messages 10:50:05 (1/1) |amethyst said (1d 17h 14m 16s ago): also, learn gdb, it's magic 10:50:28 !send Thundamoo work 10:50:29 Sending work to Thundamoo. 10:50:31 hmm, i see removing plain octopodes from vaults didn't last very long 10:50:33 Hey so I've been told a few times to look at the gold god code for tips on how to get a move working 10:50:46 But I don't see the gods branch when I use branch -a 10:50:48 Thundamoo: It's in Trunk now. 10:50:59 for one, you have to pull remote branches also. 10:51:07 How do 10:51:16 git pull origin/gods IIRC 10:51:25 Cool thanks 10:51:25 err, git checkout origin/gods 10:51:46 Thundamoo: gold god is in trunk right now, so use trunk :) 10:51:56 And that's not what you want to do anyway. 10:52:02 Try "git checkout master; git pull" 10:52:12 ...and then if you want to grab a branch from origin, "git checkout " 10:52:51 <|amethyst> git fetch -a origin should make them all show up in git branch -r or git branch -a 10:52:59 MarvinPA: Pushed a fix, sorry! 10:53:36 Oh sweet the git fetch command is actually doing something 10:53:47 YEAH there it is! 10:53:49 Thanks 10:53:52 reaverb: cool, thanks 10:55:02 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:06 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:55:24 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:32 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:08 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-657-g48a369f: Fix debug compilation 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48a369fa9ec0 10:57:29 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:58 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 10:59:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:21 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:30 gammafunk: Should I resolve the Chei vaults mantis issue? 11:02:02 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:11 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:39 -!- File200 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:51 Hmm, on second though, I'll probably remove the current diet mutations (hebavore and canivore) on load too, just not to confused people. 11:20:58 s/though/thought/ 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-658-g4848dab: Change "hitpoints" to "health" in a few places 10(2 hours ago, 11 files, 46+ 48-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4848dab14f3f 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-659-g1e5fbc4: Change "haven't" to "don't have" in a few places (|amethyst) 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 6+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1e5fbc4d43e7 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-660-g6ea9407: Don't make rain clouds act as negative fire enhancers 10(59 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6ea9407c582e 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-661-g3e2eb95: Allow casting Ring of Flames while in a rain cloud 10(58 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3e2eb95d2ba0 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-662-g18e5b6b: Give Dithmenos piety loss when creating fire with the rod of clouds (#8510) 10(46 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=18e5b6b8b519 11:21:34 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-663-g708210f: Remove plain octopodes from a vault 10(23 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=708210f002b9 11:21:34 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-664-g8f6a687: Orc tile edits 10(10 hours ago, 2 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8f6a687fee50 11:21:34 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-665-gc9c7238: Extend bribes to all previously-unseen monsters. 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 10+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c9c7238cd961 11:27:01 commitstorm 11:30:41 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:32:16 Hmm, now the compliation break is on the other foot! 11:32:27 By which I mean one of thos commits also broke debug compilation. 11:32:31 s/thos/those/ 11:32:32 b - 16810 gold the ring "Xoas" {rElec rC- Dam+9} a - 5350 gold the ring "Woum" {rElec rPois rF- AC+4 Dex+3} 11:32:43 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-666-g5fed7dd: Staticify several functions. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fed7dde5ee0 11:32:43 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-667-gf86312e: Don't trigger berserkitis on ranged attacks (#8516). 10(3 minutes ago, 6 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f86312ef1488 11:32:45 interesting pair of rings 11:32:53 Bloax: Wrong channel. 11:34:10 Grunt: Commit c9c7238cd9 breaks debug compilation. 11:34:44 what 11:34:49 If I'm reading this correctly. 11:35:07 Grunt: Did you test debug compilation? It isn't compiling on my machine. 11:35:17 Maybe it's some apple_gcc thing. 11:35:29 I haven't touched anything at all in that commit related to debug or not debug. 11:36:15 http://sprunge.us/KSMf 11:36:28 oh 11:36:30 -!- notcluie_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:31 rip 11:36:39 Grunt: Yes, you can't just add a new daction apparently. 11:37:51 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-668-gfbb1a45: Fix debug compilation (again). 10(58 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fbb1a450bcb9 11:37:52 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:19 Grunt: breaking debug commit buddies? 11:38:22 :( 11:38:26 :) 11:38:30 Grunt: When can you duplicate an item with Gozag? 11:38:44 when you are on the altar 11:38:52 Bloax: any time you're at an altar and haven't done so already. 11:38:52 (and worshipping gozag) 11:38:57 (altar of Gozag) 11:38:58 oh right 11:39:01 (that part is important!) 11:39:13 I've been meaning to fix the 6* ability listings on the ^ screen 11:39:24 All he's doing is chitchat me. 11:39:30 Drop the item on the altar. 11:40:27 that part wasn't expected 11:40:37 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:33 it's important to prevent players from duplicating cursed rods that they are wielding 11:42:59 so why can't artefacts be duplicated, huh 11:43:03 i just want my double shaolin 11:44:16 So I just noticed: 11:44:21 TSO's ^ screen overflows at full piety. 11:44:55 Your screen overfloweth. 11:45:09 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-668-gfbb1a45 (34) 11:45:25 oh I left that rebuild open 11:45:26 doh 11:45:48 grunt: easy solution would be removing holy weapon 11:45:51 extended buff!!!! 11:46:37 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-669-g7905f2f: Move one-time god ability descriptions up from the bottom of the screen. 10(60 seconds ago, 1 file, 11+ 16-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7905f2f0c790 11:47:00 never mind 11:47:23 PleasingFungus: maybe you can trim the TSO god description! :) 11:48:42 maybe I will! 11:48:45 I was thinking that, actually 11:49:39 !learn add pleasingfungus ghost reform, god descriptions, hell descriptions, unique dialogue, orb ghosts, remove steam damage 11:49:40 pleasingfungus[1/1]: ghost reform, god descriptions, hell descriptions, unique dialogue, orb ghosts, remove steam damage 11:50:26 plenty to keep me busy 11:50:44 but but steam damage 11:50:45 !send PleasingFungus stuff 11:50:45 Sending stuff to PleasingFungus. 11:50:56 !send Grunt more stuff 11:50:56 Sending more stuff to Grunt. 11:51:00 also what will you do with ghosts :( 11:51:06 !send do_stuff PleasingFungus 11:51:07 Sending PleasingFungus to do_stuff. 11:51:28 * PleasingFungus can't do stuff: PleasingFungus is already doing stuff! 11:51:45 notcluie_: 'ghost reform' is just fixing a behavior that means a bunch of players don't make ghosts when they die 11:52:08 is that basically just all undead races 11:52:15 haha 11:52:48 no, non-undead players don't leave ghosts if they die on a level which already has a .bones file 11:52:57 that was a bad sentence 11:53:33 "If you didn't get a ghost on a level that has ghosts and you die, you can't leave a ghost". 11:53:39 ^ 11:53:39 (more or less) 11:53:43 more or less. 11:53:57 oh, that's bad yeah 11:54:09 so I'm fixing that 11:54:14 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:54:18 both for general purposes and to further my evil 'orb ghost' plans 11:55:05 -!- jeffro_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:55:13 and what is this "orb ghost" thing 11:55:37 What does it signify if a varibale is called a "key?" Like GOZAG_SHOP_KEY? 11:56:06 Thundamoo: in that case, it's a key in you.props() 11:56:11 s/()/[]/ 11:56:15 And what is a key? 11:56:26 -!- Mad_Wack is now known as Mad_Wack_Away 11:56:26 -!- Mad_Wack_Away has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:56:33 Key, a data element which allows one to find associated data using a database index or a hash table 11:56:38 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:49 basically it's just an arbitrary string that's used consistently 11:57:21 GOZAG_SHOP_KEY = "GSHOP"; you.props[GOZAG_SHOP_KEY] = whatever; if (you.props[GOZAG_SHOP_KEY]) .... 11:57:48 -!- UncertainKitten has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:09 So if you have "if (you.props[GOZAG_SHOP_KEY])" when does that return true? 11:58:19 What you just wrote is invalid. 11:58:26 sorry, that's my fault 11:58:29 You're probably thinking of "you.props.exists(GOZAG_SHOP_KEY)" 11:58:35 Oh 11:58:37 notcluie_: will explain when I get back 11:58:40 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0a1/20140325030201]] 11:58:48 When do props exist? 11:59:00 After you set them. 11:59:06 Gotcha. 11:59:24 So the GOZAG_SHOP_KEY pops into being when you use the call shop ability 11:59:40 so that the function that actually creates that shop 11:59:43 knows to do so? 11:59:59 Am I on the right track here? 12:00:34 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:01:06 Well, in this specific case, what happens is: 12:01:19 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:01:38 If an off-level shop is getting created, you get an entry in you.props with a key corresponding to the level and value corresponding to the shop spec. 12:01:52 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-670-g2599154: Add a comment so new dactions don't break the debug build 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=25991549f4fe 12:01:54 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:54 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 12:01:54 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:04 When you visit that level, the dungeon builder looks for that key and grabs the value for it to get the shop spec. 12:02:43 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:21 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:05:17 I see. Where is you.props() defined? I'd like to see how it works. 12:05:44 It's part of actor, actually. 12:05:49 !source actor.h:401 12:05:49 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/actor.h;hb=HEAD#l401 12:06:50 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:57 Sleeping creatures should be affected by lava or water by shane 12:06:57 store.h has more on CrawlHashTable 12:07:15 I like how it's called CrawlHashTable, as though there is any other kind. 12:07:39 goodmantis, I'm just going to resolve that as won't do. 12:07:51 Awesome. Thanks again. 12:08:37 could also make petrify not drown things and remove the levitation/flight distinction (again) 12:09:29 MarvinPA: pertrify drowns things? 12:09:38 yes 12:09:49 Wow. 12:09:56 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:11 I guess we can just pretend that petrified creatures are made of a very porous rock. 12:10:11 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:01 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:09 paralysis too 12:12:11 I'll just add a vague "The monster keeps enough movement to remain in the air!" or something. 12:12:18 -!- Thundamoo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:24 but yes, petrify/paralyse can just be so magic that they keep you where you were even in the air 12:12:24 -!- johlstei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:28 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:28 i don't think an extra message is necessary 12:12:45 MarvinPA: Eh, that works too. 12:12:53 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:50 throwing nets also drown flying but not levitating things iirc 12:15:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-670-g2599154 (34) 12:18:54 -!- minmay has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:55 -!- minqmay has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:55 I like how the mons_check_pool() to handle perification and paralysis are in differant files. 12:20:52 Hmm, once you remove those 3 cases, only apply_location_effects() calls mons_check_pool() 12:20:56 I wonder if that can be removed. 12:21:30 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:57 notcluie_: hi! 12:22:02 ! 12:22:09 !send PleasingFungus !!!!!! 12:22:09 Sending !!!!!! to PleasingFungus. 12:22:17 dang. 12:22:32 Grunt: do shops only appear on unexplored floors 12:22:52 Bloaxor: That's changed like every day now for the past week or so. 12:22:59 orb ghosts: basically I want players that die during the orb run to show up, not on d:7 or w/e, but as orb run spawns 12:23:06 Normally yes, but if you've exhausted all the floors that would qualify you can place one on your current floor if could previously generate there. 12:23:16 PleasingFungus: Yes that wounds nice. 12:23:30 also sounds nice, but it wounds the player nice too. 12:23:42 well, hopefully 12:23:43 pleasingfungus: that would be great yeah 12:23:51 also fr orb run spawns all appear near you 12:24:00 (actually, is this the behaviour now?) 12:24:09 iirc they appear in LOS 12:24:13 which is basically 'near you' 12:24:16 oh 12:24:31 Grunt: seems like it automaps the shops 12:24:36 Bloaxor: yes 12:24:42 pretty cool 12:24:44 Hmm, do I need to give players a mesage if I wipe their non-innate MUT_CARNIVORE/MUT_HERBIVORE on load? 12:24:54 you can't just mpr() from tags.cc unfortuantly. 12:25:31 It'll show up but I'll get wiped by the Welcome! messages. 12:28:24 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:31:20 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:03 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:32:27 you'll definitely get players confused if their muts just vanish unexpectedly. on the one hand, they're playing trunk; on the other hand, presumably some people will eventually go from 0.14 to 0.15 (when it comes out), and then be confused when their muts vanish. 12:33:36 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:54 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:34:42 out of curiosity, why are you removing them? 12:34:42 wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:34:56 well bigger things have disappeared on save upgrades 12:34:59 eg entire spellbooks 12:35:27 seems not worth messaging about to me 12:35:42 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:48 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36:56 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:56 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:53 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:19 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:28 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:39 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:06 wheals: They have almost no effect. 12:40:21 Also it's part of the food minigame which is evil. 12:40:47 is chunk removal planned for 0.15 12:40:50 yes, right 12:40:58 carnivore i noticeably lets you swap to vamp without using permafood 12:41:12 notcluie_: I think a well-balanced patch would be accepted. 12:41:28 i guess still not noticeable in most cases 12:41:37 wheals: Yes, carnivore has minor effects but it's not worth keeping, particularly when it's still an intrinisic mutation. 12:41:54 reaverb: also why was mutroulette nerfed 12:42:07 notcluie_: How as it nerfed? 12:42:18 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:42:18 no device heal???? 12:42:28 if it's interesting enough to be an intrinsic mutation why isn't it interesting enough to be one that you can get? 12:42:30 notcluie_: It's better than Berserkitis. 12:42:31 since an actually dangerous bad mut exists 12:42:37 (i don't think it's a very interesting intrinsic) 12:42:42 wheals: It isn't. 12:43:15 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:43:21 there's a million ways around berserkitis (and it isn't even very threatening anyway) 12:43:34 there's no real way around "your !hw do half as much/nothing" 12:43:47 don't get hurt 12:43:52 ^ 12:44:05 It's not like mutroulette was viable in the first place anyway. 12:44:09 um yes it is 12:44:41 bad muts do nothing after all so there's a very good chance of coming out better 12:45:29 except not anymore 12:46:21 that sounds like a good change 12:46:31 mutroulette should be a gamble 12:46:52 the other worse thing about it is neqs are actually kind of scary now :( 12:47:02 well that's kind of a good change 12:47:03 dd with no device heal sounds like fuck 12:47:05 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:47:17 hahaha oh god I hadn't even thought of that 12:47:35 Yes I was thinking of making them mutually exclusive. 12:47:43 so now i have to deliberately get slowheal 12:47:44 But I couldn't find the code and didn't care that much. 12:47:46 so i don't get no device heal 12:47:48 right 12:48:06 notcluie_: Thinking of. Haven't done it ye, maybe ever. 12:48:22 probably just slowheal3/no device heal 2 should be mutually exclusive if it happens 12:48:32 notcluie_: Doesn't work like that IIRC 12:48:36 ah 12:48:54 notcluie_: how are you planning to deliberately get a specific mut 12:48:57 is fast/slow met being removed with herbi/carni 12:49:04 pleasingfungus: glowscumming with jiyva!!!! duh 12:49:07 duh 12:51:31 -!- P_R_Deltoid has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:07 " Alternatively, it would be a neat corner application if the [reflection] ego could block and reflect gaze attacks. " 12:52:28 but but that would make reflect useful 12:52:49 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-671-g13ffe13: Remove a spriggan defender from a swamp vault. 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=13ffe13d32ae 12:52:49 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-672-g38fd0bf: Add some more shallow water to grunt_lady_of_the_lake. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=38fd0bf7d9ef 12:52:51 -!- TangoBravo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:52:51 terrifying 12:53:01 -!- home has quit [Changing host] 12:53:43 reflection is pretty good on large shields 12:53:47 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:53:53 but how often do you see branded large shields and how often are they reflection 12:53:57 not very 12:54:01 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 12:54:03 and how often are you going big shields in the same game 12:54:18 -!- Xenobreeder has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:28 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:56:47 Grunt: zin mutation curing doesn't require that you're at an altar, the description implied that it does not 12:56:49 does now* 12:57:31 oh 12:58:42 i guess there's just barely enough room for that message to take up two lines for zin, anyway 12:59:22 That's why I condensed it :/ 12:59:28 todo get someone to rewrite the Zin description 12:59:28 heh 12:59:34 well i mean there is still room! 13:00:01 or somehow make information display things scrollable 13:00:09 although it's nice freeing up space and having the empty line before the toggle bit 13:00:17 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:00:41 i think "make a bunch of things scrollable" is a longstanding implementable yeah 13:01:13 Grunt: PleasingFungus said he may or may not work on that next. 13:01:23 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6421 13:01:50 -!- Piginabag has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:02:58 -!- fufumann has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:22 -!- nooodl_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:25 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:23 -!- nooodl has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:09:37 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:09:59 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:10:09 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:10:52 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:11:13 http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Infinimo/morgue-Infinimo-20140508-000538.txt 13:11:14 TZer0: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:11:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:21 could someone add this to autoexplore deaths? 13:11:24 !messages 13:11:24 (1/1) johnny0 said (3h 9m 45s ago): ${watch} commands give https links -- it looks like ssl is disabled for lantea.net? 13:11:28 like.. the replay? 13:11:41 !tell johnny0 Darn, fixing. 13:11:41 TZer0: OK, I'll let johnny0 know. 13:12:09 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:09 -!- Furril has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:15 !learn add autoexplore_deaths !lg Infinimo 1643 -tv 13:12:16 autoexplore deaths[17/17]: !lg Infinimo 1643 -tv 13:12:22 -!- Lantell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:23 -!- Thundamoo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:34 Grunt: nice! :) 13:12:35 -!- Lantell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:35 !learn del autoexplore_deaths[17] 13:12:36 Deleted autoexplore deaths[17/17]: !lg Infinimo 1643 -tv 13:12:36 oh 13:12:36 By the way that vault should probably be fixed. 13:12:37 rip 13:12:40 ??autoexplore_deaths[16] 13:12:41 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:41 autoexplore deaths[16/16]: !lg infinimo 1643 -tv:<0.2 13:12:43 That vault was removed. 13:12:48 Grunt: Hmm. 13:12:53 MarvinPA: too slow on the draw apparently! 13:13:10 When, that patch is from the past couple weeks. 13:13:16 err, dump. 13:13:23 oh.... 13:13:24 A couple of days ago. 13:13:26 %git HEAD^{/Xom} 13:13:26 07elliptic02 * 0.15-a0-483-gd7d6c26: Remove a deadly Xom overflow vault (Infinite_Monkeys). 10(18 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d7d6c261e2e4 13:13:39 Grunt: Hmm, missed that. 13:14:14 Alright, another coding question. What's up with the * sign? Outside of multiplication, obviously. It designates a pointer variable, apparently? How does that differ from a normal variable and why would we one to use a pointer rather than not use one? 13:14:18 uhh, question, has the learndb-page been updated recently? 13:14:31 ??learndb 13:14:31 learndb[1/7]: An HTML page of learndb entries is at http://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html. The version on CDO is currently outdated. 13:14:36 Yes it's silly. 13:14:41 -!- Mister_Fox has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:14:42 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:49 We've known for months. 13:15:06 Thundamoo: http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ 13:15:17 -!- Lasty has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:21 I recoomend reading the entire thing, but you can skip to pointers if you want. 13:15:39 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:53 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:41 -!- PleasingFungus has left ##crawl-dev 13:17:04 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-672-g38fd0bf (34) 13:17:19 -!- k2grey has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:17:35 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:18:25 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:20 TZer0: has lantea been updated recently?? 13:19:31 :^) 13:19:32 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:43 -!- randomizr is now known as RZX 13:19:47 Bloaxzorro: last night 13:19:48 how so? 13:19:56 like, it rebuilds every night 13:19:56 Your branch is behind 'origin/master' by 176 commits, and can be fast-forwarded. 13:20:02 uhh... 13:20:13 should I try doing things manually...? 13:20:14 (just started a rebuild <_<) 13:20:30 TZer0: we had some major things land shortly after that rebuild, that's all :) 13:20:30 Dang, this is one of the better-written tutorials I've seen on C. 13:20:42 ah, right 13:20:45 "major things" being "two new gods" 13:20:47 what can I expect? 13:20:49 oooh 13:20:51 daaamn 13:20:59 Weather-god, right? 13:21:02 what is the other one? 13:21:15 Happy Merchandise God 13:21:16 GOLD GOD 13:21:27 Oooooooh 13:21:29 Must try. 13:21:55 Thundamoo: C++ too! 13:21:55 please tell me when it has rebuilt 13:22:02 protip: drop item on altar and pray to duplicate 13:22:03 TZer0: it'll be announced here, remember? :) 13:22:08 ... hurr.... 13:22:15 I see. I've only worked with low-level programming and so to use pointers we'd just straight up point to the memory address. But in high-level that doesn't work because the memory address isn't known until you've compiled. 13:22:34 proertip: save some identify scrolls for mid-lair and identify the single-scroll stacks 13:22:40 and then duplicate acquirement if you find it 13:22:45 Cool beans. Thanks for the reference link, reaverb. 13:22:51 imo duplicate a good slaying ring instead 13:22:55 Thundamoo: .. depends 13:23:03 Bloaxzorro, btw. http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/SGrunt/SGrunt.txt 13:23:11 wait 13:23:12 Thundamoo: Pointer do stright up access the memory address. 13:23:18 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:18 Unless it's like a class pointer. 13:23:19 how low-level are you used to working with? 13:23:21 Grunt: I said this elsewhere but finding a good slaying ring is less common than having found acquirement by mid-lair. 13:23:29 Well yeah, but not by number 13:23:32 TZer0: Assembly, Wii hacks. 13:23:36 Thundamoo: Yes by number. 13:23:37 because that number will change if you recompile 13:23:38 oh... hah 13:23:44 Like... YES by number 13:23:46 Thundamoo: It will, but you can record it. 13:23:59 Like pointer_foo+1=pointer_bar 13:24:06 Grunt: is that an invitation to the slaughter 13:24:07 (NEVER DO THAT by the way) 13:24:15 It is how arrays work, however. 13:24:17 Bloaxzorro: go throw stones at things again 13:24:31 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 28.0/20140319124030]] 13:24:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:41 i have been deeply traumatized by 40 stones not killing four jackals in a straight line 13:24:48 Thundamoo: Also, did I refer you to ##C++-general 13:24:50 ? 13:24:53 and by not killing four jackals i of course mean not one of them 13:25:23 and as much as i'd like to throw stones at things again 13:25:26 No, I don't think so 13:25:32 But I guess maybe you just did? 13:25:36 Yes. 13:25:43 my connection is so flaky right now that even just entering a webtiles game takes about 30 seconds 13:25:45 Thanks again! 13:25:46 I was going to add …yet" but I forgot. 13:25:50 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:26:18 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:29 Cool, I'll direct my code questions over there so this room can stay on-topic. 13:26:53 The rebuild is taking a while.. 13:27:08 clan takes ages to rebuild :( 13:27:27 one core.. 13:27:29 TZer0: Is -jfoo on? 13:27:30 :/ 13:27:36 Oh one core, oh. 13:27:39 reaverb: not sure... 13:27:46 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:03 you really don't need much CPU for crawl 13:28:04 TZer0: -j takes advantage of multiple cores. 13:28:06 it is great. 13:28:11 yeah 13:28:15 If you only have one core then it doesnt' do anything. 13:28:25 two threads can be acceptable on one core though 13:28:37 TZer0: Yes, but that just means thread switching. 13:28:53 Would be better to somehow devote more resources to Crawl's make process. 13:28:57 well, depends... 13:29:23 like, if one thread is waiting for disk and another is ready to compile something 13:29:32 then two threads might be a bit faster. 13:30:31 TZer0: Hmm, you would think that would be done automatically. 13:30:37 But -j isn't on automatically so who knows. 13:31:00 -!- Laraso has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:45 -!- zxc232 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:38 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:41 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:14 still building 13:33:15 damn.. 13:33:26 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:47 what kind of hardware is it running on 13:34:34 Bloaxzorro: virtual machine 13:34:40 can't remember the details 13:34:47 (I only maintain, not run the thing) 13:35:07 well singlecore sounds like agony in this time and age 13:37:21 Bloaxzorro: heh, well, my home server is actually a 2.8 GHz P4 :P 13:37:34 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:14 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-672-g38fd0bf (34) 13:41:23 yaaay! 13:42:02 any other major changes? 13:42:30 %git :device 13:42:30 Could not find commit :device (git returned 128) 13:43:00 TZer0: I made no device heal a normal mutation, that's a major change according to notcluie. 13:44:01 hah 13:47:11 Aw, git push is acting up again.. 13:48:39 -!- fooobarrr has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:04 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 13:51:53 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:15 hey I can consistently crash the game in a wizlab (wizlab_demon) by calling a summoning scroll 13:53:41 fooobarrr: That means the monster list isn't set something something. 13:53:48 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:53 We fixed a bug like that in meatsprint recently. 13:54:23 I think I remember seeing that in the logs 13:54:56 yes thats what it said " 13:54:59 bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 2008 (2008)" 13:55:13 err, i don't think it was in meatsprint. 13:55:15 if I pull and rebuild it should be ok? 13:55:37 pitsprint, and yeah hopefully pulling and rebuilding should fix it 13:56:23 fooobarrr: By the way ideally if you see something which might be a fix in the logs and you're running an old verison you should probably try pull and rebuild before coming here. 13:56:25 the most recent fix I see is jan 31 is this right? 13:56:35 fooobarr: No, there was one two days ago. 13:56:42 %git c329b0c705123b0 13:56:42 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-427-gc329b0c: Don't crash on Shadow Creatures in Zigs. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c329b0c70512 13:56:49 and other places. 13:56:59 %git f5e0bc2 13:57:00 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-360-gf5e0bc2: Really don't crash on "nothing" in random monster list. 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 12+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f5e0bc27c3c8 13:57:26 yep sorry about that 13:58:33 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:09 %git g38fd0bf 13:59:09 Could not find commit g38fd0bf (git returned 128) 13:59:46 -!- drachereborn has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:39 hey reaverb 14:00:49 drachereborn: Hey. 14:01:04 are you still looking for the part of the code that handles conflicting mutations? 14:01:23 It's in mutation.cc _handle_conflicting_mutations 14:01:28 drachereborn: Thank you. 14:01:35 my git push is broken right now, though. 14:01:46 no problem 14:01:47 So I won't be able to add that immediatly. 14:02:21 since you're the refactor expert, I wanted to run this by you 14:02:49 is it worth taking all those species-specific stuff and turning them into mutations? 14:02:56 %git 0.15-a0-672-g38fd0bf 14:02:56 07wheals02 * 0.15-a0-672-g38fd0bf: Add some more shallow water to grunt_lady_of_the_lake. 10(77 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=38fd0bf7d9ef 14:03:14 like Mf's +EV and movespeed in water, Mi's auto retaliate, etc 14:03:25 hey so im the most current version and I'm still receiving this error 14:03:35 bascially the idea is just to have cleaner code 14:06:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:11 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:12 -!- hyperbolic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:13 -!- parabolic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:28 -!- hyperbolic has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:32 ok - so the debug version seems to work but non-debug did not? 14:07:41 -!- parabolic has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:50 ah - it depends on the monster it creates I see 14:07:56 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:08:39 -!- thrall has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:49 Saint Roka by Thrall 14:09:51 Graphics Upload potential 14:10:03 Wondering 14:11:45 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:15:48 He looks like a green blob. 14:16:06 drachereborn: I'm not sure how much getting every little thing would be - some species change descriptions. 14:16:25 Getting Vampire's blood lust on a mutation, for example, would be awesome though. 14:16:34 I would run that by |amethyst. 14:16:47 Also I don't really know how I became the refactor person <_< 14:17:13 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:27 reaverb: heh 14:19:03 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-673-gb529265: Fix slow message not being displayed when hitting monsters with curare 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b529265fd906 14:19:56 reaverb: well that's one potential side effect, that racial muts can become available as general muts (like what you did with no device heal) 14:20:38 but to me it's more about cleaning up the code, make them closer to the ideal that dtsund talked about 14:20:38 drachereborn: That's generally good, but there's not really many muts which would be good randoms left. 14:21:00 Oddly I'm thining ANTIMAGIC_BITE also might be good random. 14:21:07 i.e. species descriptions becomes a list of "muts" of how they differ from human 14:21:37 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:40 Stasis or Vampire Blood drinking would be a good examples of bad random mutations. 14:22:09 sure 14:25:06 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-674-g7948ca6: Mark slow heal and no device healing as mutually exclusive (reaverb). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7948ca6b5fdd 14:25:22 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:30 wheals: Hmm, I was working on that. 14:25:36 ah 14:25:47 but I got distracted by how the format for conflicting mutation is wonky. 14:26:01 possibly i used the wrong number for that, the function doesn't make it very clear what the real difference between -1/0/1 is 14:26:02 wheals: Do you understand the 1, 0, and −1 thing at the end of the mutations? 14:26:13 should be -1 I think 14:26:19 wheals: I think 1 is correct, there is a switch() 14:26:22 1 means they cancel each other out right? 14:26:34 In any case, that's where there REALLY should be a enum 14:27:57 Hmm, I think several of those currently on there are wrong. 14:28:09 i guess i understand the difference in functionality, but not quite sure _why_ there have to be three types 14:28:15 case 1: // If we have one of the pair, delete a level of the // other, and that's it. 14:29:25 wheals: Yes, I'll have to look at that closer at some point. 14:30:02 i suppose '1' is different from the others, but 0 and -1 seem fairly close 14:30:25 0 is override 14:30:39 read the comment at the top of the function 14:30:41 -1 can also override 14:30:52 Yes, don't deal with it now though, I'm working on that bit of code. 14:31:07 i'm not sure why some failures should cause us to stopping, rather than continuing 14:31:12 1 is cancel, 0 is override, -1 is conflict 14:31:15 but yeah, some simplification would be great :D 14:31:36 no, 0 doesn't cause an override on its own 14:31:50 if override = true -1 and 0 are the same 14:32:18 sure 14:32:30 but 0 allows override, if it's true 14:32:45 oh wait 14:32:50 Grr, I hate gitiorious right now. 14:32:54 if override is false 14:33:05 -!- SomeoneAwful has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:10 -!- SomeoneAwful_ is now known as SomeoneAwful 14:33:23 let's agree on 1 and -1 first right? 14:33:32 Weakened 0.15 Beogh 14:33:42 1 is cancel, so if you have robust and get frail mut, both muts go 14:33:43 thrall: Tomb? 14:34:07 -1 is conflict, so if you have talons and rolled hooves, hooves is rejected 14:34:09 dachereborn: It's going to be a million times easier to just test this is wiz mode than to untangle that bit of code. 14:34:15 orc items 14:34:18 -!- bzn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:27 thrall: All items = orc items 0.15 14:34:35 -!- Laraso has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:44 well, no 14:34:48 the bonus is smaller 14:34:57 PleasingFungus: Really? Missed that. 14:35:01 but it does apply to all items, which is probably a buff 14:35:14 since you get a bonus when using artefacts, etc 14:35:29 Does not exist bonus items completely 14:35:41 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:47 yeah, we're trying to think of a replacement mechanic 14:35:52 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:53 thrall: Yes. 14:35:56 -!- rast- is now known as rast 14:36:02 wheals: Crawl Light has orcs sharing potions effects. 14:36:05 reaverb: do you even know what you're saying 'yes' to 14:36:07 which seems cool. 14:36:13 PleasingFungus: Not really... 14:36:18 maybe you shouldn't be, then! 14:36:20 :) 14:36:34 Troubleshooting balance God? 14:37:15 Weakening intended? 14:37:27 no 14:37:46 Accidental? 14:37:51 yes 14:37:59 because orc items were removed 14:38:20 -!- home_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:23 Fatal points 14:38:44 As an added bonus plan is not? 14:39:35 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:39:49 thrall: do you have suggestions? 14:40:01 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:03 -!- indspenceable has quit [Client Quit] 14:40:21 thrall: 다른 방법으로 그런 말을하세요? 나는 "Fatal Points"를 이해하지 14:40:51 Fatal weakening 14:41:02 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 14:41:25 이 계획은 Beogh을 개선하는 것입니다. 14:41:26 Weakened Beogh 14:41:34 slightly weaker 14:41:42 Healing orc 14:41:51 So I want this god to perform a certain series of commands every time a player enters a dungeon floor that they have never traveled to before. Where would be the best place to put that and how would I ask the code to check and see if the player has been to that level yet? 14:41:59 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:10 -!- DrKe has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:13 Players priest 14:42:56 the possibility of healing orc? 14:42:59 For that metter, does Crawl build all of its levels at once or does it only build levels as they are traveled to? 14:42:59 if I understand correctly, you want the player to be able to heal fellow orcs? 14:43:08 -!- lessens_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:43:15 yes 14:43:18 Thundamoo: As traveled to. 14:43:29 Thundamoo: i think xom recently got a chance to do something when you first enter a level 14:43:50 the problem might be that it conflicts with Elyvilon, who's main power is healing 14:43:51 Oh. So as long as the command is in Dungeon.cc it will occur when the player enters a new level and only when the player enters a new level, yes? 14:43:51 %git b999a6f53 14:43:52 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-47-gb999a6f: Let Xom occasionally give stealth or make noise upon entering a new level 10(6 weeks ago, 4 files, 35+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b999a6f53cd2 14:44:05 that would be the change, you could look at that if it's similar 14:44:06 Poison treat at least 14:44:10 drachereborn: 'healing allied orcs' is pretty different from 'healing enemies to pacify them' or 'healing yourself', though. 14:44:22 sure 14:44:34 Thundamoo: I think you're thinking a bit to procedurely. Generally you need to stick stuff in functions which are called when you want them to called. 14:44:34 yeah, orcs dying of poison is annoying, since there's nothing you can do to save them. 14:44:35 but is it different enough? 14:44:47 Excluded player 14:44:51 yes? 14:44:53 what popular idea is for allied orcs to share the player's resists 14:44:59 Ideally we would got further to objects, but that's no really how Crawl works right now. 14:45:06 one popular idea, sorry 14:45:27 drachereborn: Never heard of it and don't like it. 14:45:36 -!- Ipsum_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:45:38 dang, harsh 14:45:38 no offense, I would prefer to import the Light potion thing. 14:45:55 reaverb: I am in the habit of thinking procedurally, yes... 14:45:57 Hmm 14:45:59 I'm not sure if the right replacement for the racial armour bonus is something that relies on making your allies stronger. 14:46:07 Start Priest Resurrection 14:46:19 the racial armour bonus also isn't something that needs to be compensated for anyway 14:46:23 Okay, what is the difference between a .h file and a .cc file? What does each do? 14:46:43 not to say that it wouldn't be fine to add some unrelated new thing necessarily 14:46:48 Impossible? 14:46:51 Thundamoo: For now focus on .cc files, they have the functionality. 14:46:54 but if so it would be unrelated and new 14:47:01 PleasingFungus: since Beogh is a perma ally god, makes sense to me that he enhances allies 14:47:07 Thundamoo: a .h file is a header file; that's the term you'll want to google for 14:47:11 Tundamoo: .h files are mostly for when a .cc file needs to call a function from antoher .cc file. 14:47:32 drachereborn: he already gives you allies and buffs them periodically. I don't know, "having orc allies at all" is already the Core Interesting Thing that beogh gives. 14:48:26 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:49:13 The new unique monster orc 14:49:43 similar saint roka 14:50:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:08 Can be weakening to cover 14:50:15 reaverb: Gotcha. I'm used to dealing with extremely linear code, I guess, so I can't tell where I'm supposed to define something and where I'm supposed to call and run it. The code I'm used to had very different ways of doing that. 14:50:59 When I'm looking at "static void _place_gozag_shop(dungeon_feature_type stair)" I can't tell if all the code in that block is being run or just being defined to run later 14:51:09 When something else calls it 14:51:54 wheals: I'm not going to revert your change, but keep in mind that we do sometimes use 8s an 9s in ordinary vaults 14:52:22 We don't really have a policy on when this is acceptable, however, aside from don't do it very much 14:52:22 I guess I don't know what files are being run when, I suppose. 14:52:35 that's re: the spriggan defender change 14:53:28 -!- home has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:19 my complaint is "it's not an end vault" is not very good justification, although I guess some would still argue against the use of a defender there 14:54:23 thrall: who? 14:54:30 btw Beogh does have a devwiki page, if anyone has ideas please add it there I guess 14:54:36 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:beogh 14:56:10 -!- Bcadren_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:17 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:57:36 yes 14:58:01 Sorry to bother 14:58:45 Now you want to wish good luck 14:59:25 -!- MiraclePrism has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:15 -!- thrall has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:01:22 oh, I forgot to ask him if he liked the new tile! 15:03:57 gammafunk: well, one difference is that 8s and 9s are actually part of the branch (only technically in the case of D ood spawns i guess) 15:05:13 though a defender is a bit like a buffed rider 15:05:16 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 15:07:22 -!- ryansv_ is now known as HDA2 15:07:30 yeah, I'd argue that they're thematically related enough, but again you could improve that vault in various ways 15:08:11 i just don 15:08:29 i just don't like the idea of autoexploring into one if you make enough noise to wake it up and have it start wandering 15:09:34 well, that's more a general argument against any use of ood enemies; it's fast-moving and you have water, so I guess that's a relevant argument in swamp 15:10:09 but noise wouldn't ever make it there due to all the walls of trees 15:10:43 double-walls blocks noise completely, although I do need to check if that's true for trees 15:12:41 ah, trees are 1/4 of a wall noise-wise, so it would take like 8 trees 15:12:50 good to know 15:13:46 this dude was behind one stone wall, but given where it's situated, it's at least technically possible for it to get woken by noise 15:14:42 oh, and patrolling tag is another thing to help with that 15:15:14 i suppose it isn't really worse than the titan in shoals 15:15:21 though that's a more obvious vault imo 15:15:49 yeah, it's no big deal; more wanted to point out that there are considerations like "it's ok to sometimes use ood" and noise and patrolling to consider 15:16:08 but there's often good justification about why a given enemy isn't needed in a specific vault 15:16:18 like it's not that the vault really required it 15:18:22 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:03 Sorry about blinking out. 15:19:31 -!- Zerkmund has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:00 reaverb: So... what does it mean for something to be a .cc file? 15:21:42 it means it's the definition of a c++ function, almost always 15:21:46 it's a file containing c++ 15:22:08 So... are the .cc files called by C++'s main function and run? 15:23:10 well, they're compiled first, but that's vaguely correct 15:23:16 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:19 -!- Stendarr has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:23:21 generally very indirectly, too 15:23:28 It's better to think of those files as a way to break up all the code that makes up crawl 15:23:32 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:33 so that it's not all in one .cc file 15:23:35 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:09 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:51 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 15:29:28 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:04 Thundamoo When you look at the definition, it's just being defined to be called later. 15:31:14 Thundamoo: That's the point of a function. 15:31:34 For example, on static void _place_gozag_shop(dungeon_feature_type stair), the code is just defined. 15:31:49 It runs whether somthing says _place_gozag_shop(foo_stair) 15:32:02 Where is it called? 15:32:07 Is that in Dungeon.cc? 15:32:55 Thundamoo: I'd recommend that you maybe go through an online C++ tutorial so you can get comfortable with the basics of programming 15:32:58 Thundamoo: that bit has static, meaning it is only called in the same file. 15:33:12 wait, do all the gods lecture you on game-load when you're under penance, or is it just zin? 15:33:15 Excellent. 15:33:16 Yes, read the C++ tutorial I showed you as a start. 15:33:19 ontoclams: All 15:33:24 this channel isn't really the best place to learn C++ 15:33:54 thundamoo: Though you would probably be ignored in C++-general for asking too basic questions. 15:34:01 So try googling first. 15:34:10 ontoclasm: All 15:34:12 I always do! 15:34:18 -!- Sonata has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:25 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:34:35 ontoclasm: all the gods that can put you under penance 15:34:38 Thundamoo: Maybe at least skim the tutorial? I'll give you a good base to talk about these things. 15:34:40 all gods give you a greeting on game load. but if you're under penance it's not exactly a greeting 15:35:08 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:42 yeah 15:35:58 %git cd52a7c1f183a 15:35:58 Could not find commit cd52a7c1f183a (git returned 128) 15:36:02 -!- eb has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:06 %git :/comment 15:36:06 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-670-g2599154: Add a comment so new dactions don't break the debug build 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=25991549f4fe 15:36:07 reaverb: I did; these are my follow-up questions. :( I'll try to keep the C++ talk to a minimum in here from now on, though. 15:36:09 zin's is ridiculously varied though 15:36:41 (just like recite? :p ) 15:36:43 Zin is a spiteful god. 15:37:34 -!- Bcadren_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:37:35 -!- wat has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:42:44 Got to go. 15:44:38 -!- Spatzist has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:47:50 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:24 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:26 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:51 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 15:57:44 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517]] 15:58:59 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:02:26 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03:07 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:09:26 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:53 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:12:17 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:44 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:01 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:32 I updated 8301 on mantis. If anyone could take a look, I would appreciate it. 16:26:37 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:28:24 !bug 8301 16:28:25 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8301 16:31:31 Helmet tiles, several miscellaneous other tiles by roctavian 16:35:38 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:52 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:11 -!- Wahaha has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:31 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:48 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:48 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 16:41:48 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:08 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 16:51:18 -!- Akitten_Homura has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:11 -!- UncertainKitten has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:55:01 -!- notcluie is now known as notlucy 16:55:29 -!- notlucy is now known as notcluie 16:56:35 -!- wheals is now known as notlucy 16:56:51 -!- notlucy is now known as wheals 16:59:05 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00:16 -!- MakMorn has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:35 -!- Chris7 has quit [] 17:03:55 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-674-g7948ca6 (34) 17:04:46 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:12 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:53 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:03 -!- Akitten_Homura is now known as UncertainKitten 17:09:50 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 17:10:34 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:24 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:01 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 17:13:29 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:14:20 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:16:17 -!- Moonsilence_de has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:36 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:32 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:30 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 17:20:37 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:05 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:11 -!- fooobarrr has left ##crawl-dev 17:21:13 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:24:09 -!- Moonsilence_de has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:38 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:18 -!- File200 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:29 -!- nooodl_ has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 17:32:32 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-675-g291ab9b: Remove diet mutations from random generation 10(6 hours ago, 3 files, 9+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=291ab9b34b0b 17:32:32 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-676-ge79590d: Properly format conflicting mutations 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 26+ 26-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e79590dfc16b 17:32:32 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-677-g8973858: Make monsters not fall into liquids due to status effects 10(2 hours ago, 3 files, 0+ 16-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8973858003fa 17:32:43 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:33:15 wheals: Due to your change, if you would get slow healing while you have no device heal you lose a level of slow healing instead, and vice versa. 17:33:28 yep, just like robust/frail for example 17:33:41 seems fine unless this overwrites innate ones 17:33:47 wheals: It shouldn't. 17:34:01 Actually I think it's weird a bad mutation can cancel another bad mutation. 17:34:46 oh, truw 17:34:47 true 17:34:49 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:55 -!- indspenc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:56 I think slow heal should block no device heal, and vice versa 17:35:02 instead of cancel or replace 17:35:15 like talons and hooves 17:35:24 well there are good mutations that block other good mutations, it seems fine to me 17:35:38 s/good/non-bad/ i guess 17:36:12 Yes antimagic and acid bites conflict. 17:36:53 Oh I'm going to have to leave again soon, so if anybody suspects there's a problem in those commits I'd say it now. 17:38:53 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:39:26 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:09 -!- Moonsilence has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:52 <|amethyst> what about using 0 instead of 1? 17:44:43 fun fact 0 = 1 17:44:57 | fact n = n * fact (n-1) 17:45:43 <|amethyst> best garden-path sentence ever 17:46:15 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:19 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:48:52 -!- Thundamoo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:49:34 -!- Bcadren_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:37 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:53:32 -!- bzn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:54:01 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 17:55:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:57:08 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:57:38 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:26 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:05 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:48 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:49 -!- tcjsavannah has quit [Quit: tcjsavannah] 17:59:54 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:56 -!- Ragnor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:49 -!- Watball has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:01:44 -!- Sgeo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:22 -!- Mister_Fox has quit [Changing host] 18:02:27 Question: could we make it so that wearing a ring of fire or ice makes the storm god summon more clouds of that kind? 18:03:54 well we could, but I don't think it's a very good idea :p 18:04:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:41 OP? :P 18:04:56 I meant on the expense of other kind of clouds 18:05:36 yeah, even then. I think special casing god behavior to a specific item is bad from a design standpoint 18:05:38 -!- HDA2 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:05:42 I could see using fire/ice magic skill 18:05:43 it sounds a bit hard to communicate to the player, too 18:05:57 fire/ice/earth/air skill I mean 18:06:05 but even then 18:06:20 weighting by skill seems bad when some clouds are much better than others 18:06:25 right 18:06:59 using the ring seems worse, but it really shouldn't happen at all 18:07:00 Hm 18:07:38 maybe for fire/ice alone it might not be that bad and I could see some point to it (so that your spells aren't blocked by clouds of the opposing element) 18:07:55 but I don't think it is necessary 18:08:11 -!- Kellhus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:08:19 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:53 -!- indspenc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:55 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:25 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:33 Silly idea of the day: Make Fedhas use potions of lignificaiton instead of fruit to ease removing food. 18:11:36 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11:50 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:55 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:02 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:10 -!- indspenc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:20 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:44 -!- fooobarrr has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:29 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:17:02 hey there is definitely an issue with the way RANDOM_DEMON_LESSER is being handled in the demon wizlab 18:17:10 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:33 -!- Watball_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:53 that's the one that's causing crashes, right? 18:18:07 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 18:18:44 yes - I'm posting it on mantis now -seems it hasn't been reported yet 18:19:25 (random fr: silver arrows) 18:19:28 I'm not sure what the issue is - I poked around at that section but I really have no clue as to whats going on 18:20:55 Silver arrows? What is this, nethack? 18:21:25 >_> 18:22:18 -!- wheals_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:55 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:23:19 I'd be fine with silver arrows. 18:23:39 Hm, does anyone who has looked at the Zin Recite patch I made have any feedback for me? 18:23:42 !bug 8490 18:23:42 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8490 18:24:00 -!- wheals has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:24:02 -!- wheals_ is now known as wheals 18:24:05 Keanan: You're Siegurt? 18:24:12 yes 18:24:48 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:28 Someone was working on some recite changes of their own and may have had comments (I think it was MarvinPA?) 18:25:48 My first thought when I looked at that was "Wow this should really be Object Oreinted" but other than that I haven't playered enough Zin to comment. 18:26:21 Keanan: Oh yes, MSVC hasn't broken in the last couple of months or so by any chance, correct? 18:26:53 I don't think I could go so long without hearing that but I haven't gotten confirmation either. 18:27:18 I don't usually compile with MSVC, it has a history of going weird after a few tries. 18:27:48 Well I would appreciate it if you tied, since it would let me know completely for sure whether I can add new files. 18:27:53 And yes, it'd be nice if god abilites were, as a whole, object oriented, but that was a bit out of the scope of change i was aiming for :) 18:27:56 Maybe enough to look at that recit patch :D 18:28:14 03elliptic02 07* 0.15-a0-678-g6f51237: Runed doors aren't safe (qw, wheals). 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f512378659c 18:28:27 qw-commits activated 18:28:30 I'll pull and compile now. 18:28:31 qwqwqw 18:28:32 qw-keys deactivated 18:28:36 qwqwqw 18:28:36 qw-keys activated 18:28:45 wheqw 18:30:49 -!- pantaril_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:08 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:18 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:31 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:33:22 03elliptic02 07* 0.15-a0-679-gbad39be: Increase variance in Gozag shop fees. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bad39bebbe5a 18:35:36 * Grunt ponders how many more tweaks that number will get <_< 18:35:43 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:09 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:50 how do the clouds for the storm god work? 18:36:59 Is it a dice roll per visible tile or per tile around me? 18:37:08 Essentially the former. 18:37:16 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:17 that.. is interesting information 18:37:26 time do some extreme killholing 18:37:39 ? 18:37:51 formicid, digging 18:37:56 making "killholes" 18:38:14 clouds don't appear on squares adjacent to too many walls 18:38:20 oh 18:38:30 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-680-gb0bf75c: Don't distract non-hostile monsters with gold under Gozag 10(48 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0bf75c565f3 18:38:30 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-681-gedf5891: Update Gozag descriptions 10(48 minutes ago, 3 files, 12+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=edf58912ab14 18:38:30 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-682-ga10edf2: Remove a randart name 10(45 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a10edf26d6af 18:38:30 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-683-g5691e6d: Update Gozag ability descriptions 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5691e6de537a 18:38:32 Crash in wizlab when creating monster by fooobaar 18:42:08 MarvinPA: oh, you beat me to removing that name 18:42:13 heh 18:43:59 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:02 Keanan: Thanks. (btw on the recite patch a command which puts all the commits in a single file like "git format-patch master --histogram--stdout > foo.patch" makes it so much easier to handle. 18:44:19 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:30 Keanan: Also, I see something weird on the recite patch - a lot of indentation changes on unrelated code which violated the coding conventions. 18:44:34 I tried looking into fixing the problem but I really can't figure out what's going on... 18:45:21 is there a "getting started" type guide for the source? something that documents the way some basic things happen? 18:45:57 foobarrr: No there is not :( 18:46:04 Looks like MSVC doesn't think the hooks for the boots of the spider artefact are declared. 18:46:15 basically you have to grep for stuff. 18:46:34 Keanan: Hmm, can you copy paste the error. 18:46:34 ? 18:46:57 Ah, I see, it's been so long I just forgot that you have to run art-data.pl manually. 18:47:10 well thats fun... the vim omnicomplete and ctags helped a little bit at least 18:47:14 Hang on, that may be the only problem. 18:47:42 -!- predator117 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:47:47 Keanan: you shouldn't have to run that manually... 18:47:49 sounds like art-data.pl should be added to the MSVC project file 18:47:53 oh, I see 18:48:01 yeah, I was going to say "just run make!" 18:48:21 Keanan: What do you normally compile with? 18:48:41 -!- fungee has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:44 wheals: Yes, sounds like that, no idea how to do that though. 18:49:04 Normally I just do everything in Msys/MinGW 18:49:21 (including all my git stuff) 18:49:47 We still have doge if purging randart names is in now 18:50:30 Build results to http://pastebin.com/pVgce2Zm 18:50:39 Hmm, would it be possible to switch to those tools and drop MSVC all together? 18:52:36 And is there a sorta windows guy on the dev team? I can't really understand this <_< 18:52:56 We used to have mumra, but mumra is busy with other things now. 18:53:08 mumra watches over us, always 18:53:57 Hmm, I'm tempted to ask SamB, but I don't really know if that's appropriate. 18:54:18 Does dracoomega build using MSVC? 18:54:18 if you're going to purge internet meme references, might I suggest getting rid of allies occasionally rickrolling you 18:54:25 Well, for me it's not a problem, however a lot of people on Windows prefer to have their familiar set of tools to work with, and this certainly did work the last time I tried it (which was admittedly a while ago) If it worked all the time, I would like to use MSVC as an IDE, since the debugger works nicely from inside the interface, and intellisense makes my life easier. 18:54:28 ask me what? 18:54:59 SamB: Apparenlty you have to to run http://art-data.pl/manually on MSCV builds. 18:55:06 hmm 18:55:06 Err, art-data.pl 18:55:10 I think allies in general encapsulate many internet memes, and their removal could be justified if we allow removing content by that criteria 18:55:10 Which is obviously bad. 18:55:35 -!- motorbit has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:56:01 minmay: What meme referances were removed recently? 18:56:03 reaverb: nice url 18:56:10 %git :/randart 18:56:10 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-682-ga10edf2: Remove a randart name 10(63 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a10edf26d6af 18:56:20 gammafunk: My IRC client is silly. 18:56:34 Mine isn't silly, but I'm kind of bad at using it 18:56:34 Auto turn's two - to — 18:56:43 Lemme see if I can find the instructions I used last time I may have skipped a step. 18:58:20 fr: any of the food vaults you see in lair should place tree if the fruit is e.g. lemon, and bushes if e.g. strawberries 18:58:26 realism people, look it up 18:58:49 -!- zeia has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:53 reaverb: I'm afraid I don't remember the suggested workflow for that, and there doesn't appear to be some big "catch all" script that that runs to do all the generating ... 18:58:59 minmay: What's the exact text? I'll remove it. 18:59:19 SamB: Hmm, so MSVC build scripts can't execute arbitary shell commands? 18:59:22 reaverb: I think you misunderstood him, he was making a joke 18:59:31 reaverb: they can, and seem to 18:59:45 if you look at MSVC/crawl.vcproj 19:00:08 in short, he rickrolled you I guess 19:00:10 and vcxproj 19:00:25 don't ask me why some things are in one and some in the other! 19:00:27 SamB: Then we should probably just add the commad Keanan uses to "maunally" make art-data.pl to the build script. 19:01:02 unfortunately I don't have that version involved, and the commands seem duplicated several times in each project 19:01:14 er, the version of MSVC 19:01:33 if I had space, I could install it, but ... 19:01:42 at least I think I could 19:03:13 I think it may have been something I did to my folder, I'm gonna clone a clean version and try again. 19:03:43 Ha, line 32 of crawl.vcproj is like 300 characters long. 19:04:07 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:38 Keanan: that's very nice of you. 19:05:27 Are there any other autogenerated files in Crawl's codebase which need perl scripts run? 19:06:57 gmmafunk: Thanks for explaining the minmay meme thing btw 19:07:21 haha, minmay meme 19:07:45 many have tried to explain that, I surely didn't succeed 19:07:53 reaverb, I'm just sitting around answering brainless tech support questions while I wait, so no big deal there :) 19:08:13 Keanan: Still, you could have been doing something else. 19:08:13 You feel dopey. The caller feeds on your intellect! 19:08:20 So Thanks! 19:09:18 -!- Zooty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:32 -!- MiraclePrism has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:10:05 Would anybody mind if I pushed Orange Crystal plate mail? Still need to look at it though. 19:10:20 oh, what's the bug report? 19:10:45 * Grunt spies a r a x 19:11:23 !bug 8455 19:11:23 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8455 19:11:26 ty 19:11:43 Grunt: What does that mean? 19:12:03 Grunt: I know it's related to ra x 19:12:28 i was going to maybe push that one, i adjusted a couple of things locally 19:12:29 (look through the list of people here) 19:13:12 MarvinPA: Oh, what did you adjust? 19:13:36 * reaverb hopes it wasn't the archmage 19:13:50 oh no, just renamed to "orange crystal plate armour" for consistency with "moon troll leather armour", "salamander hide armour" 19:14:00 MarvinPA: Oh, yes that's fine. 19:14:10 and i think a minor tweak to the wording of the sustain abilities description when you examine it 19:14:23 huh, sustab wasn't already an artp property 19:14:27 Ok, I'll look a something else. 19:14:32 -!- predator217 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:35 Probably the recite patch. 19:15:11 -!- alefury has quit [] 19:16:42 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:17:21 Keanan: Getting whitespace errors on your patch, btw. Not a big deal. 19:17:40 The bigger problem is the unrelated tab weirdness I mentioned. 19:18:24 -!- ldf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:48 -!- Spatzist has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:14 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:17 Hm, I thought I ran checkwhite on that... 19:23:48 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:41 Keanan: And you caught the tab thing? 19:24:46 that I mentioned. 19:26:16 -!- drachereborn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:26:56 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:26:59 Is it in all three patches, or one specifically? 19:27:08 Keanan: the second two. 19:27:20 notably on the switch statment at the very beginning. 19:27:27 But in other, random places too. 19:27:28 Ok. 19:29:22 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 19:29:50 Well, that's interesting... "Died at util/checkwhite line 65." I killed checkwhite! :) 19:30:01 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 19:30:03 murderer 19:30:04 -!- MiraclePrism has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:05 Keanan: Hmm. 19:30:13 That's me :) 19:30:23 Keanan: I'd fix the tab thing first - less stuff to checkwhite 19:31:48 Can you be more specific as to which tab thing you are talking about? What I thought I saw before has been fixed.. 19:32:22 Under switch (chapter) all the case statements have been moved left. 19:32:26 for example. 19:32:49 Maybe this is fixed on your local copy, but the mantis patches marked (fixed) are not. 19:33:34 Ah, stupid auto-format reformatted the pre-existing indents (I didn't actually change any code in that section) 19:33:50 Keanan: Yes, might want to change that option. 19:33:56 Yeah. *sigh* 19:34:06 Right now the patches are unusuable. 19:34:17 Ok. I'll re-do them. 19:34:25 (I had wondered what was going on there.) 19:34:29 Git rebase and add -p should help get seperate the good code from the bad. 19:34:52 Yup yup, thanks. 19:37:33 Keanan: since MarvinPa supported it, I'll push the top patch with whitespace fixes now. 19:37:48 With a differant commit message since your violates the 78ish char limit. 19:38:08 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:17 Orange Crystal Plate Mail? 19:39:34 -!- Zermako has quit [] 19:40:41 ocpa 19:41:14 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:24 the top patch is just the "use most applicable recite type for everything in los" one, right? 19:41:35 MarvinPA: Yes 19:42:09 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:23 that'd definitely be good yeah, i think the changes to weighting and new effects are probably good to have in some form too but haven't looked at those properly 19:43:27 Keanan: On second thought there's a couple minor issues I want to iron out, I'll push within the next hour or so though. 19:44:06 Again, thanks, I really need to get on setting up things to merge properly and create commits locally without so much weirdness as I have to do now. (I have like 7 different dev environments for different clients all set up and half of them overlap) 19:44:16 Keanan: Oh, ouch. 19:44:38 And I thought using Xcode and vim was bad before I realized vim was always better if you google what you need to do. 19:45:01 (It kinda grew out of working contract work for several different people, and I never quite bothered to silo things properly) 19:46:01 Hmm, do you need to static_cast intergers to enums? 19:46:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:55 !seen gammafunk 19:46:55 I last saw gammafunk at Fri May 9 00:37:23 2014 UTC (9m 32s ago) saying 'ring of the demigod' on ##crawl. 19:47:03 He should be here. 19:47:14 dubious messages on ##crawl 19:47:27 * dpeg scribbles something on a notepad 19:47:49 reaverb: Something like static_cast(your_integer) 19:48:04 dtsund: Yes, not sure if that's neccsary. 19:48:18 -!- inojin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:48 -!- Spatzist_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:27 reaverb: Oh, whoops, misread. 19:49:49 I don't think you need to. 19:49:51 dtsund: No, I'm pretty sure you're thinking what I'm thinking. 19:49:58 dtsund: Yes, I'll try it without. 19:50:10 Hmm, better yet, can you iterate over enums? 19:50:16 Oh absolutely 19:50:25 Some enums are set up to explicitly support that 19:51:12 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:07 For instance, skill_type has SK_FIRST_MAGIC_SCHOOL = SK_CONJURATIONS specifically so you can do things like for(skill_type sk = SK_FIRST_MAGIC_SCHOOL; sk <= SK_LAST_MAGIC; sk++) 19:52:39 dtsund: That's good. 19:53:31 Hmm, I'm getting a compile error if I try that.. 19:55:45 <|amethyst> yeah, you need int to iterate like that 19:55:48 Oh, er, instead of skill_type sk in that, int sk 19:55:54 -!- Yllodra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:01 dtsund: Yes, I think I'll do that. 19:56:13 Although a couple enums override the ++ operator to do that. 19:56:16 in externs.h 19:56:34 <|amethyst> hah 19:56:37 <|amethyst> so they do 19:56:59 <|amethyst> well, *they* don't, since it's a function and not a method 19:57:02 [17:40] ocpa 19:57:04 hello! 19:58:23 i'm trying to solve a graph theory problem with mspaint 19:59:36 |amethyst: and I'm assuming you need static_cast to convert from intergers to enums too? 20:00:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:15 i have a carefully calculated way of doing this thing and i just made a more otimized version by eyeballing it :C 20:00:18 that sounds pretty tricky 20:00:34 why mspaint? 20:01:22 |amethyst: dtsund: Hmm, yes you do. 20:01:22 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/cayley.png 20:01:37 colorful 20:01:51 ontoclasm: What is this graph theory problem? 20:01:54 the graph in question is, kinda sorta, a torus 20:02:38 reaverb: lessee if i remember how to explain it xD 20:02:59 so we have a grid graph, which i'm saying for now is square 20:03:12 NxN 20:03:18 -!- fearitself has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:32 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:07 now, if you have two "steps" you can take, in this case "one space south" and "one space east" 20:04:29 then the furthest number of steps you need to get from anywhere to anywhere else is 2N-2 20:04:46 i.e. up to N-1 steps south and N-1 steps east 20:04:48 -!- ahahaha has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:48 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:14 For the specific, most North West space? 20:05:15 -!- Eonwe10 is now known as Eonwe1 20:05:18 s/For/From/ 20:05:22 well, it turns out it doesn't matter 20:05:32 ontoclasm: If you assume it wraps. 20:05:38 yes, it does 20:05:46 Ok, you didn't say that. 20:05:55 oh, sorry 20:05:58 Although "torus" was a big hint. 20:06:10 Continue, please, this is interesting. 20:06:18 yeah, it's actually C_n x C_n but whatever 20:06:32 so, the question is, if we're going to add a third "step" 20:07:04 what "step" should it be in order to minimize that maximum distance you have to travel 20:07:18 ontoclams: Ooh, cool. 20:07:41 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:07:43 the picture i linked is illustrating (poorly) the case where the third step is (4, 11) 20:07:59 i.e. the space from one colored rectangle to the next 20:09:18 my theory from before would give a max distance of 3(N^(2/3)) = 27 for this graph 20:09:27 Hmm, seems like you could brute force if from the simple problems, but I imagine a theoretical general solution would be useful in proofs and stuff. 20:09:39 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-684-g2d6cb6d: Don't distract sleeping monsters with gold either 10(50 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d6cb6d8e2e6 20:09:39 03PleasingFungus02 {MarvinPA} 07* 0.15-a0-685-g48ad150: Add orange crystal plate armour unrand 10(3 weeks ago, 10 files, 29+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48ad150b2f9d 20:09:41 s/if from /for/ 20:09:41 ...but i just drew that and it has a max distance of 22 20:09:41 :C 20:09:49 :) 20:09:52 Yay! 20:09:59 yeah, brute forcing it for smallish Ns wouldn't be hard 20:10:04 For both math and OCP! 20:10:18 but it'd be neat to have a nice clean theory that works for arbitrary N 20:10:51 xD 20:11:32 PleasingFungus: i might reduce the int bonus a bit, since that sort of falls into the same trap as wizardry would have done (counteracting the heavy ev penalty, rather than encouraging you to overcome it yourself) 20:11:48 -!- HDA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:05 and +6 is quite a lot 20:12:12 true 20:12:12 Yes, that was my only other thought too. 20:12:18 -!- HDA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:53 +3 would be in line with most other +stat items 20:12:56 actually i guess i will just do that now, yeah 20:12:59 +3 sounds good 20:13:00 PleasingFungus: nice one! 20:13:11 I tend to underestimate stat bonuses generally 20:13:16 dpeg: thank you! 20:13:20 MarvinPA: Maybe it should increase MP regen/pool? 20:13:41 i think archmagi/clarity/sustab is plenty really 20:13:52 MarvinPA: Oh yes forgot the clarity. 20:14:59 It's good even w/o any casting attempts, I thought? 20:15:35 yeah 20:16:39 not as highly enchanted as a non-artefact crystal plate could be, but also doesn't require 14 ?ea to get there 20:17:18 tbh I was considering giving it a higher enchant value, but I didn't want to step on maxwell's toes 20:17:20 it's already Quite Strong 20:17:34 yes, and we shouldn't look at it only from endgame-pov -- early one this is a killer! 20:18:08 PleasingFungus: also, i let you get away with a "..." there... 20:18:18 ha ha ha 20:18:23 I'd forgotten that I stuck one in there 20:18:30 i'll take a +8 cpa any day, let alone with clarity 20:18:48 -!- Spatzist has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:50 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-686-g8acb02a: Reduce the intelligence bonus on the orange crystal plate 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8acb02a7b433 20:19:58 hm 20:20:11 currently if you can't afford gozag, you can't even read his description at his altar 20:20:24 god of snobbiness 20:20:25 Good flavour 20:20:40 hmm, is that a tiles thing? in console i'm pretty sure you can, at least 20:20:55 nevermind 20:21:02 doesn't work in console either, yeah 20:21:16 Keanan: Another minor note, there's is a lot of "now's" in the comments. Remember this code will likely got untouched for months, possibly years. A future contributer might be confused if it hasn't worked as it does now since before they started player. If something nees a "now" it goes in the commit message. 20:21:30 s/player/playing/ 20:21:35 s/nees/needs/ 20:22:30 "Those accepting this decree perform noticeably better when they see gold glint around them." 20:22:49 ontoclasm: You can remove that :D 20:22:51 %git edf58912ab14 20:22:51 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-681-gedf5891: Update Gozag descriptions 10(3 hours ago, 3 files, 12+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=edf58912ab14 20:22:59 aha 20:22:59 Ok, re-merged and generated patches without the unintended extra modifications, if someone would delete the bad patches that'd be appreciated: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8490 20:23:05 i'm behind the times 20:23:17 Keanan: I'll delete the top three. 20:23:17 ontoclasm: there is always ?/gg though 20:23:35 The first one was Ok I thought.. 20:23:43 Or do I need to regenerate that one as well? 20:23:59 -!- Fizybubbleh has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 20:24:03 (Oh wait, you were going to merge that one after some fiddling, nvm. :) 20:25:12 new ghost reform patch: http://sprunge.us/fZaI with a bunch of the fixes |amethyst suggested this morning 20:26:08 accidentally squashed both commits into one while trying to fix them up. whoops 20:26:17 -!- MgDark has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0/20131216183647]] 20:26:36 Keanan: Yes, by the way that bit of code should be removed from the new patches. 20:26:44 wafflepants (L1 DEWz) ASSERT(total > 0) in 'random-var.cc' at line 56 failed. (D:1) 20:27:02 I can probably do that somehow, but if you can just make the patch from the later commits that would be better. 20:27:42 Hm, ok, I did a fresh "pull" of master before I merged, did I catch it before you pushed the change out? 20:27:58 Keanan: Yes, still fiddling with the patch. 20:28:02 Ok. 20:28:15 I'll wait until you're done before I do any more merging :) 20:28:24 Keanan: Generally a good idea. 20:28:31 -!- yuastnav_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:07 So what do people think of qoala's unrandart world reacts patch? 20:29:33 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:37 I don't like that it exposes stuff or that mutliple changes seems to be a little mixed, but I think it's worth adding. 20:35:02 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:07 "exposes stuff"? 20:35:18 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:29 wheals: I makes a couple private functions public. 20:35:34 s/I/It/ 20:36:01 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:33 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:36 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:38 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:40 -!- rast- is now known as rast 20:37:02 looking at god descriptions. zin's describes very nearly everything that he does; kiku's only talks about his style & what he demands. 20:37:09 well, if the alternative is awful special cases like wyrmbane had... 20:37:10 is there a preference in style between the two? 20:38:00 PleasingFungus: I think the ability descriptions describe the gods more mechanically, I would go flavorfully for the normal god descriptions. 20:38:02 PleasingFungus: in general "god powers" should describe everything, "god" doesn't need to (assuming you're looking in gods.txt) 20:38:07 keeping in mind that ! exists, it seems silly to have the prose summary of every ability in exhaustive detail, especially where there's so very many... 20:38:09 yeah, gods.txt 20:38:14 specifically looking at 20:38:18 "god powers" is the second page of ^ 20:38:26 though kiku's seems to be the shortest there is 20:38:31 Well, Kiku's overview should mention corpse drops and books 20:38:40 Dith might be now that I removed that awful lifeforce thing. 20:38:45 the shortest. 20:38:47 maybe set aside spell and curse protection for the longer bit 20:38:59 i think vehumet's is an okay example of what the first page should be like 20:39:02 sif, kiku & lucy are all pretty short 20:39:26 the problem with zin is... well... 20:39:37 he's pretty active 20:39:51 Recite imprison sanc 20:40:00 the description is seven lines long and it still doesn't cover everything. 20:40:01 cure mut I guess 20:40:08 With some there's just not a lot to say. I tried to think of a fourth Dith sentance for like 30 minutes. 20:40:14 And recite is its own little ting 20:40:31 PleasingFungus: I would just mention the things he hates for the conducts. 20:40:34 the first page should try and give you a general description of flavour/what you'll get out of the god/conducts, but yeah that is hard to do in a general way for some gods 20:40:44 yeah, I'll try to condense it down a bit more for zin/tso. 20:40:53 and maybe put some more meat on kiku's bones. 20:41:03 since that description is a little bit... 20:41:05 ... 20:41:06 ... 20:41:07 sif's could be extended a bit too, yeah 20:41:13 _skeletal_ 20:45:15 Is there a way to delete saves without openning them? 20:45:21 rm? 20:45:37 From Crawl's start screen 20:45:57 I keep doing silly things in Wiz mode which create saves that crash on load. 20:46:30 And It's bugging me I have to track them down to remove them. 20:46:39 Worse, sometimes I forget which ones crash! 20:47:04 Oh, and double worse are the ones which max out the alarm clock before crashing properly... 20:47:53 I should make a "wipe saves" script 20:55:25 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:43 -!- st_ has quit [] 21:00:24 03Siegurt02 {reaverb} 07* 0.15-a0-687-g01e124b: Remove choosing a book for Recite. 10(7 days ago, 4 files, 16+ 116-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=01e124b8e5cd 21:00:39 Keanan: ^ 21:00:49 feel free to pull now, thanks for the patience. 21:01:21 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-688-g151c267: Don't claim Cheibriados dislikes +rage items (#8295). 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=151c26771ee7 21:01:26 reaver, I have bad news. 21:01:33 -!- lobf has joined ##crawl-dev 21:01:38 Aha, Keanan = Siegurt? Anyway, a good change! 21:01:47 PleasingFungus: Say it. 21:01:57 Is theree an obvious error? 21:02:00 dpeg: Yes. 21:02:01 you made a minor typo in the commit message 21:02:05 the worst error of all 21:02:13 PleasingFungus: Ah, what did I typo. 21:02:26 This commit changes it so each monster is individually affect by that one book. 21:02:30 should be 'affected' 21:02:42 past tense missing :O 21:02:52 PleasingFungus: Heh, I got that right on the first sentence. 21:02:55 yep 21:03:25 I really had to wrangle those sentances to get them to describe what happened. I changed the tense at some point and most have missed it. 21:03:30 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:03:39 just run util/grammarcheck 21:03:51 PleasingFungus: Ha 21:04:01 PleasingFungus: I am not sure it's the worst error of all, though. Think of the missing gerunds!!! 21:04:18 -!- HDA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:25 I have no time for gerunding. 21:04:42 PleasingFungus: I am not sure it's the worst error of all, though. Think of the gerunds!!! 21:07:12 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:33 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:46 reaverb since you are adding new bad mutations how about making Fo's Stasis a 3 level bad mutation? [the lower levels offer stasis at random, blocking (mutation level/3)% of stasis blockable things. Mutually exclusive with Teletitus and cBlink mutations. 21:16:12 dtsund: I don't quite understand :) 21:16:21 Bcadren_: No, for numerous reasons I will not get into right now, that is not a good idea. 21:16:33 Also there is no cBlink mutation. 21:17:05 Yes there is...or is it invoke tele? Level 1 is blink on command; I thought level 3 was cBlink, but I'd never seen it get that high... 21:17:22 No, the sucessrate just goes down. 21:17:29 Er, fail rate. 21:18:43 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:19:00 dpeg: I do you think that we're ready to set those item weights in your proposal to 0? 21:19:07 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 21:19:22 yes, I am just typing up another reply to Victor 21:19:40 yeah, I liked Victors post 21:19:57 "post" = crd post correct? 21:20:01 yes 21:20:03 Could be a fatally bad mutation for a small percentage of characters (Be and Wp, mostly) is that the reason why? ...or perhaps chance to waste consumables? *shrug* I'd already thought about it a lot. Just thought it'd be annoying, but non-fatal. Shoutitus is already pretty fatal for As and En characters and cannot be blocked... 21:22:12 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:33 unmoin 21:24:16 Hey bh! 21:24:24 About to merge xtrain? 21:24:27 reaverb: and if you want to lecture me on terminology usage, think twice! I'll trot out all the evidence I have showing how I use only cool nerd software 21:24:54 reaverb: I don't have a working computer 21:25:01 bh: Oh, Ouch. 21:25:14 see, I did a silly thing and my ssh key is on a mostly dead macbook, so I can't connect to my server... 21:25:18 For setting items weights to 0, we want to do so for anything that's not: large rock, corpse, chunk, or skeleton 21:25:37 and is there anythign that will break if we do this? 21:25:43 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:26:12 gammafunk: I think throwing dmg might depend on item weights? 21:26:15 (I'm going to make this patch now, but I want to know if there are any issues with the idea that may have been missed) 21:26:22 maybe things that divide by item weights 21:26:31 hrm 21:26:35 throwing damage depends on a magical damage table, right? 21:26:35 <|amethyst> autodrop options 21:27:08 didn't know autodrop was a thing, so that's good to know 21:27:21 autodrop will certainly be a less needed thing after this, I'd imagine 21:27:41 <|amethyst> also, why give weight to chunks? corpses I can understand 21:27:53 reaverb: if you want to merge xtrain, you're more than welcome to. There's one bug that needs to be fixed, but it's easy to find 21:27:55 I think the concern there is balance 21:27:58 (I don't understand corpses.) 21:27:59 <|amethyst> I mean, why would chunks have weight but not potions? 21:28:06 bh: What's the bug? 21:28:24 chunks are most relevant for 1) heavy spellcasters and 2) simulacra 21:28:25 I'd probably rebase if I could - any reason that's a no-no 21:28:31 Set longblades to 27, set short blades to any non-zero value. 21:28:54 it crashes the skills menu. I forget get the exact cause. I think it's trying to calculate the skill cost for level 28 and goes out of bounds 21:28:58 chunks are least important of the four 21:29:12 -!- Lasty1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:25 compared to skeletons? surely not 21:29:44 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:29:49 oh there is the issue of moving them to another level, I see 21:30:27 gammafunk: I think Haran will be sad if Nemelex goes away 21:30:28 yeah, I guess you could break the game somewhat with corpses/skels, but I don't think chunks are irrelevant. That said, the player can already carry quite a lot of chunks 21:30:48 dancing weapons, apportation (specifically of the orb) 21:30:51 bh: he can reply just fine -- like he did when I suggested to remove pizza! 21:30:53 not that we're optimizing for making him non-sad 21:31:01 dpeg: You did such a thing!? For shame! 21:31:18 pizza dpeg, how could you 21:31:24 (are things that depend on item_mass) 21:31:30 ah, right 21:31:31 For now, let's remove chunk weight. We can always change it back later. 21:31:39 <|amethyst> armour autotraining is currently based on mass 21:31:45 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-689-g714ec68: Make antimagic bite a normal good mutation 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=714ec68abff0 21:31:47 Awkward throw damage (throwing a book or a corpse at something) and awkward throw range depend on weight, but both of those are...negligible 90% of the time. 21:31:47 If somebody shows it's broken. 21:31:49 <|amethyst> that could be changed to use encumbrance 21:31:49 yeah, we do have plans to mostly render chunks useless (perma-food only) 21:32:03 wha 21:32:11 simmarine: At what? 21:32:18 pizza will be more useful than ever 21:32:42 vs seems quite not special with these new mutations. also giving everyone a random chance to have free antimagic seems really excessively good 21:32:44 "it works well on vs" seems completely unrelated to whether antimagic bite should be a random mutation 21:32:50 since they are sort of designed around it 21:33:04 yes, they eat magic and essence 21:33:05 literally 21:33:15 Hmm, could change it back or reduce the weight to 1. 21:33:17 on the heels of randgods, we should add randraces :) 21:33:20 how about zero :P 21:33:26 <|amethyst> item weight is used to decide whether someone can wield a big weapon 21:33:53 it's their strong innate ability to make up for their various downsides, so that seems like a reason to not make it available randomly 21:34:05 MarvinPA: I think it would also work well on other species, I didn't want to make a massive commit message explaining that. 21:34:13 Hmm, too strong is a possibilitiy.. 21:34:17 -!- Red_Bucket has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:22 yes it would work well on other species. who wouldnt want innate antimagic when they hit things without the downside 21:34:28 also making it less special 21:34:29 bh: "heels of randgods" -- are you talking about 2020? :) 21:34:58 I don't look forward to 2020. People will make all manner of terrible hindsight jokes. 21:35:15 <|amethyst> jelly item eating 21:35:16 Then in 2021, everyone will realize that the jokes were terrible. In hindsight. 21:35:30 wow, even jelly item eating 21:35:31 <|amethyst> mimic size 21:35:34 |amethyst: depends on weight or will be a hot 2020 topic? 21:35:40 <|amethyst> depends on weight 21:35:43 How do shields work that make them worse than a lot of people think? 21:35:46 Ok, I'll revert if the general opinon is a bad change. 21:35:46 Hot Topic won't be around in 2020, I hope. 21:36:16 bh: Hot Topic = wannabe subculture franchise? 21:36:43 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:51 dpeg: Sounds about right 21:36:59 I'm not convinced but there's no reason to fight over such a trivial change. 21:37:07 hmm 21:37:14 Does antimagic bite even do anything without fangs? 21:37:22 Basil: Yes, it works completely. 21:37:27 The dmg might be a bit less. 21:37:36 I'm wondering because I hope shields don't have some kind of "realism" limit that makes no sense when you consider evasion has no such limit 21:37:53 It hits maybe ⅓ the time? I was attacking an Orb of Fire in Wiz mode to test. 21:37:53 reaverb: I wouldn't mind -- to me, the main question is whether the mutation would make people change their approach to the character. Would they? 21:38:17 dpeg: I think it would, just like Trog gifting good anti magic weapons changes Berserker's approach. 21:38:20 Also on spellcasters. 21:38:23 yes 21:38:31 it also scales with experience level in a way that species-innate abilities generally do and mutations generally don't 21:38:31 reaverb: it hits (str+dex)/50 21:38:48 Basically getting Vehumet powers. 21:38:49 well, for anti-magic, the player can't cast magic while wielding the brand 21:38:56 We should have timed commits (just like politicians should only make timed laws). 21:39:00 Basil: % of the time? 21:39:00 or can't cast it very well, at least 21:39:01 they can, they just have a much smaller mp pool 21:39:10 dpeg: Yes. 21:39:10 No, that is out of 1 21:39:30 so if str+dex>=50, you bite every attack 21:39:50 Basil: Hmm, that seems strong. 21:39:58 !send dpeg bribed branches 21:39:59 Sending bribed branches to dpeg. 21:39:59 What exactly is being discussed right now, I wasn't here for the beginning of this 21:40:00 That was the intention 21:40:13 antimagic bite available as an every mutation? 21:40:34 Ok, can we divide this into "to strong an scales oddly" and "antimgic bit period is always bad" ? I can do the no device thing and split it into levels. 21:40:40 Red_Bucket: Yes. 21:40:54 Red_Bucket: recent topics: removal of Nemelex, antimagic bite as normal good mutation commit, removal of item weights 21:40:57 I made the commit and people don't like it (which is going to happen on something eventually) 21:41:00 Why not make vampire fangs a thing while you're at it 21:41:11 Red_Bucket: Fangs are random I think? 21:41:24 why don't we instead stick to the topics at hand (there are plenty already) 21:41:31 gammafunk: Yes. 21:41:54 More mutations in general would be nice. Spreading them out into Good/Neutral/Bad/Very Bad might also be nice 21:41:56 Do fangs inflict bleeding? 21:41:57 So let's start "Is Antimagic good as a random good mutation at all" 21:42:08 Because I have an idea if they do 21:42:13 Since the power level thing can be handled later and is moot if the answer is no. 21:42:19 gammafunk: ubiquitious problem with ##crawl-dev: have to be disciplined yourself and be willing to discipline others in order to have a hope of making progress. 21:42:55 discipline 21:42:55 reaverb: good question; I don't know 21:42:59 irc can be hard that way, yeah 21:43:29 I think anti-magic bite without the anti-magic brand drawback is bad, yeah 21:43:29 Well, I can't think of any random goodmuts that do all that much aside from robust and iridescent/black scales 21:43:33 i don't see free antimagic as making for a particularly interesting random mutation no, especially in comparison to the weapon brand that already exists 21:44:33 gammafunk: I think it is exactly because it doesn't have the drawback. It's interesting not to have that association once in a blue moon. 21:44:39 but that might be a problem with goodmuts? 21:44:41 yes, its essentially free antimagic without the downside. i dont really see how im going to change my approach with it. i either hit things already and get free antimagic or dont hit things a lot and i think those turns will be better spent doing the thing they do instead of biting a lich 21:44:41 is interesting. 21:44:48 what do antimagic weapons do to a the wielder's magic? 21:44:54 cuts your mp 21:44:59 reduces by 2/3 21:45:28 simmarine: So you think the most relevant part of the antimagic brand is the mp cut? 21:45:30 i like it on vs because it helps define them. theyre a magic-eating species and it's really neat on them 21:45:39 Do spellcaster enemies avoid wielding anti magic? 21:45:54 Red_Bucket: of course 21:46:08 ah, sorry: enemies 21:46:24 <|amethyst> they avoid picking it up 21:46:27 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: I should sleep.] 21:46:46 <|amethyst> they can be created with antimagic in vaults 21:47:01 hmm 21:47:03 antimagic is an extremely good brand and just handing it out randomly seems bad 21:47:28 03Grunt02 07* 0.15-a0-690-ga82c57f: Revert "Make antimagic bite a normal good mutation" 10(62 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a82c57f8d186 21:47:30 simmarine: Well you could say the same for Blink mutation or the resistance mutations. 21:47:30 Well, HP and claws are what define Tr, and those are available as goodmuts 21:47:36 problem solved 21:47:41 but Vp's nutrition also defines it, and that is not a goodmut 21:47:42 Next topic? 21:48:11 Grunt: Even though I think I'm going to lose, I want to see why people disagree with me. 21:48:18 <|amethyst> "lose" 21:48:24 livid discussion 21:48:24 <|amethyst> what the hell? 21:48:27 the resist mutations are quite nice, but it helps that they're defensive 21:48:33 Basil: what if anyone could get constriction mutation? 21:48:39 |amethyst: Ok, "lose" is a bad word. 21:48:55 yes claws are universal but im sure some things will be universal just because of how generic they are when you think of "mutation" 21:48:58 I don't think I'm going to convince anybody this is a good change. (even though I think it is) 21:49:05 It's rare that I make a commit without writing a rationale in the description (unless it's an *extremely* obvious rationale). 21:49:29 I mutation that's a large boost to your killdudes without any of the species-specific limitations is more problematic than a level or rF 21:49:47 s/or rF/of rF/ 21:49:53 Grunt: Sorry, will note that for the future. 21:50:15 gammafunk: so should future goodmuts tend toward double-edged sword deals? 21:50:35 I think goodmuts for killdudes need to tread a more careful line 21:51:02 like, rf affects a fraction of your fights; killdudes mutations can affect nearly every fight 21:51:36 <|amethyst> (antimagic affects a fraction of your fights, though maybe a larger fraction than rF) 21:51:45 it would be nice to have more double-edged mutations i think, that's been discussed in the past but obviously there is the difficulty of actually coming up with such mutations 21:51:46 Anti-magic is an amazing thing that many melee characters have to go without. 21:52:15 |amethyst: then again, it affects likely the hardest fights 21:52:18 "Ranged attacks can be blocked only with physical shields" 21:52:36 Is the wiki right here, does condensation shield really not work against ranged attacks? 21:52:44 is ice not physical 21:52:52 Red_Bucket: More of ##crawl question, by the way. 21:53:23 I'm pointing it out as something that might need to change 21:53:27 hmm 21:53:32 Red_Bucket: what 21:53:37 Without even confirming it first? 21:53:39 I wonder what you'd have to pair with a slaying malus to make it double-edged 21:53:45 Basil: acc? 21:53:45 Red_Bucket: almost needless to say, that's false. 21:53:50 simmarine: good joke 21:53:54 i tried 21:54:10 Well, I hear that sure blade is good 21:54:11 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:13 speed 21:54:28 so +7 acc/-1 dam might be worthwhile? 21:54:29 Every point of slaying = 1 point less EV/AC? :) 21:54:34 but I'm not sure that'd be interesting either 21:55:00 Basil: Yes I do not think that would be interesting. 21:55:13 reckless attacks mutation 21:55:13 how about a +slaying -ev one 21:55:19 Early on there are a lot of things that are annoying to hit, but then you just switch to a higher acc weapon... 21:55:25 wheals: ogreform 21:55:27 <|amethyst> I think an antimagic mutation could be interesting if there were some interesting trigger 21:55:33 That might be interesting 21:55:35 hmm 21:55:36 <|amethyst> antimagic on unarmed attacks only for example 21:55:45 <|amethyst> or antimagic when your MP is full (or empty) 21:55:58 Wow antimagic troll possible. 21:56:04 <|amethyst> but not "extra brand on top of your current brand" 21:56:40 |amethyst: I don't like those two because they tend toward particular char types, but that seems like a good avenue to explore. 21:58:04 reaverb: I think if you wanted to explore an offensive goodmutation, it'd be best to avoid anti-magic in particular 21:58:13 we have a god and a species centered around it 21:58:13 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:24 or at least those two have it as a strong component 21:58:25 gammafunk: Hmm, that may be a good idea. 21:59:05 Yes, the mechanic is more used than most. 21:59:16 Although on the other hand it is pretty deep. 21:59:20 of course, Bcardren has advised us to remove Trog, so there's that 22:00:05 oh? 22:00:47 what kind of madman would suggest removing a god??? 22:00:59 johnstein: thanks for decluttering cbro the other day btw :) 22:01:00 that hurts 22:01:14 jeanjacques: went on to win the game I had in progress! 22:01:26 He did later change it to the more reasonable "Remove Be" 22:01:50 on the topic of god removal, i had some nemelex changes that i was working on for 0.15 22:02:04 no sweeping overhaul or anything, just some adjustments to problematic wonders stuff 22:02:13 Which I would support if I was making a perfect game for elite players but am more hesitatant about for a game where new players have to start somewhere. 22:02:34 i guess i can push those anyway while deicide discussion is ongoing though 22:02:39 yeah, I still feel that the card mechanic (duplicating conjurations/summons with randomizing) is not really worth salvaging 22:02:47 yeah, sure 22:02:52 Oh, where's the talk of killing Nemblex? 22:02:57 <|amethyst> reaverb: C-R-D 22:03:39 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:03:42 |amethyst: Hmm, for some reason my subscription hasn't been working properly. 22:03:56 |amethyst: Thanks for telling me. 22:05:21 decluttering? 22:05:26 oh you mean disk space? 22:05:41 <|amethyst> oh, that reminds me 22:05:43 (grunt) 22:05:53 <|amethyst> it's getting close to time to free up some space on CSZO 22:06:04 johnstein: yes :) 22:06:10 morguing the morgues? 22:06:12 <|amethyst> guess I need to talk to greensnark about making ttyrecs to shallott or somewhere 22:06:14 !send |amethyst space 22:06:14 Sending space to |amethyst. 22:06:18 <|amethyst> s/making/moving/ 22:06:26 !send morgues Morg 22:06:26 Sending Morg to morgues. 22:07:14 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:22 looks like my VPS host is going to double my disk space 22:08:30 just coz they like me so much 22:08:38 gammafunk: Very good arguments, Deiciding Nemblex sounds reasonable to me. I would want to save the unique effects too. 22:08:47 so I'll get 40GB more. probably tomorrow so there will be some downtime for maybe an hour 22:09:01 gammafunk: Maybe one of Nemblex's Invocations could become a miscellanous evocable? 22:09:36 reaverb: cool. And is your usage of "Nemblex" some kind of disdainful nickname? 22:09:48 gammafunk: Which ever one is worth keeping - I find Stack Five pretty fun, although maybe that's because I don't use it to it's fullest measure. 22:09:58 gammafunk: Err, that's not how it's spelled? 22:10:02 heh, nope 22:10:07 ??nemelex_xobeh 22:10:07 nemelex xobeh[1/4]: The gambling god. In return for sacrificing anything and everything, you get decks of cards, as well as abilities that let you manipulate the decks in your favor. Nemelex abilities use evocations instead of invocations, and can be used while silenced. 22:10:14 !hs reaver nem 22:10:14 6. reaver the Spear-Bearer (L11 MfSu of Nemelex Xobeh), slain by a yak on Lair:2 on 2013-10-21 00:48:31, with 11193 points after 26014 turns and 2:44:11. 22:10:26 From a 0.13 Nemelex's choice combo. 22:10:34 yup 22:10:46 Nemblex's choice 22:10:50 Oh yes that was also forever ago, I should probably play game or two before he goes away. 22:11:03 SpEn^Nemelex 22:11:04 there's still 0.14! 22:11:06 !lg . won nemelex 1 22:11:07 1. SGrunt the Imperceptible (L26 SpEn of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-06-03 00:11:13, with 1274053 points after 116298 turns and 7:40:31. 22:11:18 alternatively something like FeAr^Nemelex 22:11:27 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark I should move a few hundred gigs of ttyrecs from cszo to one of your servers before long... how to best do that? (and how to arrange for sequell, footv, etc to find the correct location? I guess sort to server by date? 22:11:27 |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 22:11:28 !lg . won nemelex s=char 22:11:29 One game for gammafunk (won nemelex): OpTm 22:11:32 oh 22:11:34 Grunt: ITYM FeGl^Nemelex 22:11:37 elliptic: mm 22:11:43 right my other win was in the jump_attack branch 22:11:45 !lg elliptic won 1 22:11:46 1/534. elliptic the Executioner (L23 MDCK of Makhleb), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2009-08-02 00:08:16, with 2104339 points after 70854 turns and 7:47:03. 22:11:46 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:55 (oh) 22:11:55 no he means 22:11:56 !lg * nemelex x=char 22:11:57 39640. [char=HuAr] TheAlmightyOne the Fetichist (L20 HuAr of Nemelex Xobeh), slain by a water elemental on Shoals:2 (nicolae_shoals_arrival_archipelago) on 2014-05-09 02:46:40, with 230394 points after 37900 turns and 6:58:59. 22:11:58 !hs Fe-- 22:11:59 No games for Fe--. 22:12:00 my first win wasn't online 22:12:01 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:12:02 :/ 22:12:03 !hs * Fe-- 22:12:04 55748. hyperbolic the Ripper (L21 FeGl of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-12-20 09:16:22, with 33162178 points after 43713 turns and 8:56:31. 22:12:08 ah 22:12:14 lame 22:12:35 (my first win was MDFi of N, so I'll be a bit sad if N is removed) 22:12:53 (clearly we will remove Fi after we remove Nem) 22:13:17 You'll make person X sad has been a consistent refrain about removing nem 22:13:39 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13:51 !lg . nem won s=char 22:13:52 3 games for Basil (nem won): MiWz, HaAr, GrMo 22:13:55 gamma: nem is conceptually interesting, but I agree with your analysis 22:13:59 gammafunk: I used to really like nemelex despite the flaws, but I stopped at some point and can't really argue with most of your criticisms 22:14:52 yeah, he is a quixotic god and kind of lures players into trying him because he's so out there 22:14:56 Maybe it would be good to remove the advantages from deck use now, and if that doesn't cause immediate improvement proceed with deicide. 22:14:58 part of this is that I started to dislike most summons 22:15:24 (and maybe continue even if it does) 22:15:34 is a potential hour of downtime something that's worth mentioning on the main blog? or is it better to just announce it in ##crawl an hour before it happens? 22:15:41 remove the advantages from deck use? 22:15:42 and summoning decks are sort of at the heart of how N plays 22:15:48 1-2 hours max. maybe only 15 minutes 22:15:52 <|amethyst> wheals: getting piety from using decks 22:15:54 wheals: The scummy ones. 22:15:57 oh, i see 22:16:03 wheals: yes, piety. 22:16:03 yeah, that deck type is the deck of "make problems go away" more than any other 22:16:07 johnstein: I wouldn't worry about it if it is 2 hours max 22:16:18 <|amethyst> reaverb: you'd have to adjust the sacrifice piety gain a bit I think 22:16:20 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:33 but I don't care for the random conjurations either 22:16:36 |amethyst: Yes. 22:16:44 the random conjurations are less interesting than the random summons, I think 22:16:53 makhleb does it better, since there's a better cost and fewer keystrokes even 22:16:59 Didn't you get more piety for using decks than it took to get a gift in ancient versions? 22:17:04 ok, thanks elliptic. I didn't think so. but wasn't sure what the general expectations were. if people would freak out not getting their crawl fix :P 22:17:06 since different conjurations still tend to be similar and we have other effects that give random conjurations 22:17:50 I would start by stripping out things that are bad about Nemelex, such as Peek at Two and such, and see how the core looks. 22:18:13 <|amethyst> orbstorm needs to be a L9 spell or maybe an evocable if we remove nemelex :) 22:18:15 If that doesn't make him better just keep going. 22:18:31 reaverb: I don't think doing removal in stages like that makes sense 22:18:44 |amethyst: Yes, I think gammafunk's list of unique effects was a little short. 22:18:48 You see here nooodl's Tome of Conjuration. 22:18:51 if someone has a vision for how to make N better, we can discuss that 22:18:56 elliptic: Hmm, the more I think about it the less sense it makes. 22:19:09 to try and remove in stages. 22:19:09 but just removing random pieces we don't like isn't going to do much unless we have a goal in mind 22:19:25 I think I'm building a vision for a Cards god. 22:19:38 It would not involve any physical decks. 22:19:46 Nivim: Tavern would probably the best place to propose it. 22:19:48 especially since I'm pretty sure the sets of things we dislike about N are not all the same 22:19:58 ugh. I /joined a room here by mistake. it's invite only, so every 30 seconds I get this message: "[INFO] This channel is invite-only. You must have an invite from an existing member of the channel to join." 22:19:59 I want crusade to remain in the game in some form because it's such an awesome effect 22:20:02 elliptic: Heh, probably right. 22:20:10 (give Crusade back to Recite <_<) 22:20:14 anyone know how to tell my client to stop trying to join the room? /part isn't working 22:20:19 (chatzilla) 22:20:32 mass-temporary-charm is kind of cool 22:20:36 johnstein: Sure this is the place? 22:21:12 probably not. I'm not used to freenode as much so I don't know where to go to ask. I looked online and haven't found stuff. I will keep looking elsewhere 22:21:13 johnstine: #chatzilla has a redirect for support. 22:21:14 Nivim: he's a server admin, so we cut him some slack :) 22:21:23 ty reaverb 22:21:23 <|amethyst> johnstein: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155831 22:21:46 <|amethyst> oh hm 22:21:56 elliptic: is there a wiki entry or something listing Nem's problems? 22:21:56 <|amethyst> that says fixed 11 years ago so I guess that's not it :) 22:22:11 the biggest thing is the piety, but memorizing decks is also probably bad for newcomers 22:22:23 (I will go barf a wiki page.) 22:22:32 Basil: there is gammafunk's recent e-mail on c-r-d 22:22:36 Oh right 22:22:38 forgot about that, thanks 22:22:59 Hmm, crusade might make sense for my psionic system if that by some miracle goes somewhere 22:24:05 Red_Bucket: One of the major complaints about decks is that they're too much like spells :D 22:24:14 ??mass abjuration 22:24:15 mass abjuration[1/1]: 0.13-: Attempts to abjure everything hostile in LOS (like pre-0.10 Abjuration). Level 6, found in the Grand Grimoire. 22:24:16 "The player wants to get as many decks as possible, hence should use decks as much as possible..." 22:24:45 You can also recycle decks outside of combat, which is sort of sketchy 22:24:49 I don't suppose we could move mass abjuration to a lower book, then give grand grimoire a summoning/hex that tries to enslave things before abjuring them 22:25:09 but, 22:25:11 But then, this new spell would be kind of too close to mass abjure 22:25:16 !lm . hu nem abyss.enter 22:25:16 hu is ambiguous: may be species or class. Use hu-- (Human) or --hu (Hunter) to disambiguate 22:25:20 !lm . hu-- nem abyss.enter 22:25:21 1. [2013-06-22 08:01:20] Basil the Sensei (L16 HuAr of Nemelex Xobeh) is cast into the Abyss! (drawing a card) (D:17) 22:25:53 is jiyva's paralysis thing still flavoured as the jellies joining you in praying 22:26:24 Basil: yeah, lots of minor quibbles about how decks work, but some of those are adressable; I wanted to focus on the core design, which I think is the thing that either needs to be reworked or that is a fundamental reason to remove nem 22:26:26 Damnation is still sort of wonky, which should be rectified if Nem is ket 22:27:01 Oh, that for some reason reminds me. Is there any reason why we don't address charm tedium by making them have a sustain mp cost? 22:27:08 %git :/Jiyva 22:27:08 07MarvinPA02 * 0.15-a0-158-g39028f5: Adjust Jiyva's jelly prayer ability 10(4 weeks ago, 9 files, 11+ 21-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=39028f5fbff9 22:27:15 ontoclasm: adjusted slightly there ^ 22:27:22 but they're still "praying" thematically 22:27:57 Jelly Prayers is the name of the new band ontoclasm, reaverb, and I are starting just to get that out there 22:28:13 ?/n_n 22:28:14 Matching terms (10): citation_needed, clan_names, guardian_naga, ~AreBrandon_next, ~coolrobin_next, ~quitrobin_next, ~rwbarton_next, ~slimerobin_next, ~Thalfon_next, ~tsn_next; entries (1): crawl_confessions[8] 22:29:13 I think crawl confessions is the only one which uses the emoticon 22:29:26 Though making a lot of charms into sustains would encourage using them at low cast success rate, which would lead to a lot more people getting personally acquainted with how nasty charm miscasts are. 22:29:59 ??charms miscast 22:29:59 enchantment miscast[1/1]: 1: corona / random uselessness 2: curse / slowing / berserk 3: 3x curse / paralysis / confusion / 0-18 glow. Charms and Hexes miscasts still use the old Enchantment miscasts. 22:30:07 i ask because: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/charms.png 22:30:13 i'm doing some invo icons 22:30:22 Hmm, maybe it was only transmutation that was bad 22:30:24 Red_Bucket: Been discussed to death on multiple occasions, look up the old discussions first.. 22:30:31 and i drew The Best Icon 22:30:35 ontoclasm: oh? 22:30:46 7th row, #3 22:30:50 ??transmutations miscast 22:30:50 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 {contam}, {petrification}, or {confusion}. 3: 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 {contam}, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 22:30:54 <3 22:31:12 singing jelly 22:31:25 Yes that tile is awesome. 22:31:39 Maybe it should be the actual normal tile. 22:32:28 Oh yes, would anybody object to giving Spider boots running + Jump ? 22:32:46 Somebody suggested it on clinging removal and now that it's actually gone. 22:32:50 I wasn't really that serious when I suggested that :P 22:33:05 elliptic: Oh. Hmm. 22:33:05 I don't think it would be awful but it doesn't seem very interesting either, I'd rather just remove the unrand 22:33:09 Spider gloves that shoot webs 22:33:17 Yes that would also be fine. 22:33:28 to remove it. 22:33:29 since we have regular boots of jumping, we can just pretend those are boots of the spider 22:33:34 heh 22:33:40 MarvinPA: The solution to problematic Wonders stuff would be to have Nemelex give Wonders decks on an experience timer rather than alongside regular deck gifts 22:33:40 but +3 22:33:43 Also known as "gloves of spriggan killing" 22:33:48 -!- zeia has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:54 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:11 give one whenever you gain an xl 22:34:15 or to have nemelex not give problematic wonders stuff 22:34:32 Does mp drain gaze work on monsters and apply antimagic? 22:34:35 That's less fun. 22:34:44 That can actually come up now because of sack of spiders 22:34:50 It's not like we can't move wonders stuff to something else. 22:35:05 I couldn't think of much in wonders that's truly worth salvaging 22:35:12 even trove is debatable 22:35:19 er trowel 22:35:25 I want to be able to use ghost moths from sack of spiders to render an orb of fire inert. 22:35:38 I thought Trowel was Dungeons anyway; was that deck removed at some point? 22:35:45 yes 22:36:04 oh right, I may be confused as to the current deck situation 22:36:17 deck of drowning khufu 22:36:32 gammafunk: yeah, I think just making portal vaults more common in general would be preferable to adding trowel as an effect somewhere else 22:36:32 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:35 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:36:38 right 22:36:50 controlled access to portals isn't very good 22:36:55 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:06 (outside of wiz mode) 22:37:26 ??tmut miscast 22:37:26 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 {contam}, {petrification}, or {confusion}. 3: 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 {contam}, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 22:40:08 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:10 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517]] 22:42:01 !learn edit transmutations_miscast[1] s/3: /3: Badform for random2(200) turns/ 22:42:02 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 {contam}, {petrification}, or {confusion}. 3: Badform for random2(200) turns3-20 dmg AND 0-34 {contam}, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 22:42:16 !learn edit transmutations_miscast[1] s/turns3/turns, 3/ 22:42:17 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 {contam}, {petrification}, or {confusion}. 3: Badform for random2(200) turns, 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 {contam}, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 22:43:08 -!- bh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:44:04 Curious question: Is there a reason that enemy spriggans tend to have shields or quarterstaves, while player spriggans are bad with both of those? [Just seems like a weird incongruency from a flavour standpoint and I don't particularly see the gameplay reason.] 22:44:13 |amethyst: for the weights thing, my plan is too start by simply only adding to player burden for large rocks, corpses, skels, but leave item mass intact 22:44:31 since we kind of want to play test this 22:44:56 and then maybe look into removing most item mass at a later point 22:45:13 but if you have a suggestion for a better general approach, please let me kow 22:45:51 gammafunk: skels? is there some use for carrying around monster skeletons that I don't know? oh, I guess carrying to a new level for animation there? 22:45:57 yeah 22:46:01 same for corpses 22:46:14 also bone shards 22:46:21 Hmm, How would I check I have correctly removed an unrandart? 22:46:22 personally I wouldn't worry about anything other than large rock weight 22:46:24 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:31 hrm 22:46:36 reaverb: try making it in wizmode 22:46:46 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:48 well, if I picked up say 5 skeletons and moved them ot another level 22:46:49 you probably can't really check 22:46:51 what unrand? 22:46:52 Basil: Well it's just marked nogen so. 22:46:52 but if you are concerned about corpse-carrying (useful for corpse rot at least) then you can leave those with weight if you want 22:46:58 PleasingFungus: Spider boots 22:47:01 ahh 22:47:01 reaverb: well than that's pretty simple! 22:47:02 ofc 22:47:13 check whether you added the flag nogen 22:47:18 wheals: Heh. 22:47:20 if you did, mission successful! 22:47:23 mmm 22:47:32 elliptic: I think especially early game there'd be optimal play to move e.g. ogre skeleton to another level 22:47:34 Also 2 TAG_MAJOR_VERSION 's 22:47:35 yes 22:47:42 it is still optimal even with weight though 22:47:46 just a bit more tedious 22:47:57 You awkwardly throw an ogre skeleton. 22:48:03 yeah I suppose so; I'm not sure when it's even possible str-wise currently 22:48:05 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:07 I've never really tried it 22:48:20 well, not all skeletons/corpses weigh that much 22:48:21 todo bring back Bone Shards 22:48:27 <_< 22:48:42 I already often carry around 4-5 corpses at a time on corpse rot chars... of course lighter corpses are preferable for that 22:49:00 Don't bring back bone shards 22:49:01 but even if ogre skeletons weigh too much, iguana skeletons are just as problematic 22:49:02 i thought about making simulacrum use skeleton instead of chunks 22:49:08 |amethyst: I can set up a user on my server that you can use to rsync or scp files in 22:49:19 (hooray!) 22:49:23 |amethyst: ssh public key? 22:49:27 well, I'll just consider large rocks then 22:49:29 If you want to limit the number of corpses people carry, you could just make rot act faster 22:50:02 hrm, given that the player will have lots of carrying capacity, do we need to adjust the large rock mass or introduce a new restriction? 22:50:03 Are there any proposals other than capping rock capacity by strength? 22:50:48 Basil: I was wondering whether there would be a good way of just making large rocks less common 22:50:55 -!- Eldarby has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:15 since I think that if running out of them was actually possible then being able to carry as many as you want wouldn't be an issue 22:51:21 Cyclopes beaning you with illusory large rocks 22:51:34 but making them less common is tricky because they already mainly generate from monsters who use them 22:51:46 I guess they could just mulch more? 22:51:48 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:08 Alternately, give stone giants stacks of darts on a die roll 22:52:11 no real reason why they have to have such a low mulch rate if you can carry lots of them 22:52:34 ??mulching 22:52:35 mulching[1/3]: The chance of breakage is: 1/6 for curare and darts; 1/8 for sling bullets, stones, arrows, and bolts; 1/12 for non-curare needles; 1/20 for javelins; 1/30 for tomahawks; and 1/50 for large rocks. Throwing nets have a chance to be destroyed when struggled against. Thrown non-throwing weapons do not break. 22:52:54 Are large rocks enough more powerful than Javelins to justify the need for a limit? 22:53:02 wow why do tomahawks have such a low mulch rate 22:53:14 not like it matters of course 22:53:33 I guess they were replacing hand axes and such so it sort of makes sense, but javelin rate seems like it would be fine 22:54:11 Basil: anyway I'm not sure whether reducing mulch rate would be better or worse than capping carry capacity based on strength, it is just an idea 22:54:54 Well, they play fairly differently than other ranged types as is, save slings sort of 22:55:40 I'm going to remove the now-unecessary calls to check for burdened changes, but at some point we may need to remove some player-side stuff that will introduce save compat code 22:55:48 in that you have a limited number to throw per battle, whereas for any given battle you can just shoot everything with arrows until they die 22:55:50 it'd be nice to save this for when we're sure we want this removal 22:55:55 that might be a thing worth preserving 22:56:16 (I smell a new experimental branch) 22:56:22 I wonder if making large rocks not stack would solve the problem? 22:56:22 hrm 22:56:29 not really 22:56:29 it would also probably annoy people 22:56:31 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 22:56:34 Grunt: yeah, that may be a good idea 22:56:36 you'd run up against pickup limits 22:56:42 like we already have with encumbrance 22:56:45 not sure if it will garner enough play testing, but probably it would 22:56:55 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:55 isn't that the point? 22:57:06 I'd certainly give another OgHu or throwing type a go on that branch :b 22:57:11 Part of the point is to remove the infinite prompts 22:57:12 maybe another 15 rune DE-- 22:57:14 Is anything worth annoying people this much? 22:57:16 PleasingFungus: isn't what the point? 22:57:21 -!- CKyle has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:48 (The cyclopes glares at you. You are burned by incandecent energy!) 22:57:49 Gerad (L10 MiFi) ERROR in 'cloud.cc' at line 358: cloud sparse dust in iron_grate at (52,30) (D:8) 22:57:59 o_O 22:58:26 03elliptic02 07* 0.15-a0-691-gf89b05e: Simplify Gozag shop placement. 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 15+ 69-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f89b05eaf313 22:58:27 so, experimental branch now that truly removes to the full extent possible, or less invasive change in trunk? 22:58:27 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:58:27 the point of removing stacking for large rocks would be to provide a cost/soft limit on carrying large rocks - that is, inventory space 22:58:27 (A counterpoint to illusionary rocks.) 22:58:27 -!- geedmat has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:58:46 Could not pick up an item here; shall I ignore it? 22:59:09 for every large rock if you're at max inventory space 22:59:20 yeah okay I see now. 22:59:22 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:59:22 agreed. 22:59:39 (Solution: don't autopickup large rocks) 22:59:44 PleasingFungus: inventory space limits are more annoying than weight limits 22:59:45 (just turn off - yes) 22:59:52 elliptic: really? 22:59:57 yes 22:59:57 Yes. 22:59:59 Yes they are. 23:00:18 they mean that you have to drop an item whenever you encounter a scroll of enchant weapon you want to read, for instance 23:00:37 hence nemelex can be so "fun" when you have a lot of decks 23:00:58 that's not quite fair, nemelex has both issues 23:01:01 I was spectating someone the other day who had a full dozen escape decks in their inventory 23:01:10 not to mention other decks 23:01:18 PleasingFungus: fortunately hitting the inventory space limit is also rarer than hitting the weight limit unless you are going overboard with decks or evokables 23:01:19 of course, they were a felid, so they had a little more space to work with 23:01:23 wheals: yeah, but the inventory limits are often the more accute problem 23:01:44 -!- qoala has joined ##crawl-dev 23:01:56 I do still think that elemental evokables using up a ton of slots is an issue, though 23:02:05 s/accute/acute/ 23:02:10 my best idea is making multiple ones of the same type stack, which would help a bit 23:02:24 Perhaps identical unstacked decks could merge as well? 23:02:28 "2 phials of floods (1 charging)" 23:02:32 or some such 23:02:39 how about each evoker is unique 23:02:45 are you discussing removing weight from items? this seems like a good idea 23:02:49 you can only ever have one phial, one fan, etc 23:03:00 bye bye evokerzig 23:03:00 I almost wonder if it would be better if it was a more gradual limit, rather than having more items in your item always being better. some kind of softly accumulating penalty for having a nearly full inventory, to discourage people from always being up against the limit... 23:03:19 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:03:22 PleasingFungus: No that would be awful. 23:03:37 Because inventory managment isn't really fun. 23:03:37 ??scrambling 23:03:38 scrambling ~ scramble[1/2]: Upon falling into deep water, if not in statue form, you will scramble free if you're adjacent to land or shallow water and you're carrying less than a random amount of your capacity between 50% and 100%. The same goes for lava, but you need at least rF+, and you will take massive hp damage (10+(2d50) / rF), not to mention your poor scrolls! 23:03:40 PleasingFungus: burdened status for having 51 slots full 23:03:40 because I mean you have two things - being at limit is basically optimal, because it maximizes your options. and being at limit is awful, since it means you have to fuck around every time you want to pick something up 23:03:42 we had that! 23:03:43 rip 23:03:49 overloaded status for having 52 slots full 23:03:54 I actually sort of like this idea 23:04:18 Yes, the last couple slots might actually be a decent idea. 23:04:25 I'd like something a bit more gradual - slow penalties for > 39 items or something like that. so that you aren't encouraged to fiddle around to be Just Below whatever limit 23:04:27 Not "slowly accumulating" though. 23:04:36 slow penalties sound drastic 23:04:41 but so that it's not optimal to have a full inventory (because it's awful from a player experience) 23:04:57 I mean basically the idea is to make optimal play fun/not tedious, right? that's a crawl goal? 23:05:00 PleasingFungus: that makes picking up items for convenience always bad 23:05:00 PleasingFungus: You would still fiddle around to get the best balance of penaly over items carried. 23:05:03 <|amethyst> except that, if you're slowed at 40, being at 39 is awful 23:05:04 what you suggested 23:05:09 PleasingFungus: What you're suggesting does not fix the problem 23:05:11 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:13 Except it would be worse. 23:05:13 It does the other thing 23:05:13 PleasingFungus: but you would just stay at 1 less than the penalty bar 23:05:27 if the penalty started at 1% of ~whatever it was~ 23:05:30 a penalty for 52 or 51 might be cool though 23:05:32 elliptic: I'd rather just have 52 make you burdened if that were a thing 23:05:33 then it wouldn't be a big deal 23:05:38 Basil: right, maybe just 52 23:05:44 since that would let you pick up E* and use it 23:06:10 What if you autocombined wands. (Two wands of Hasting become one with charges added); reduce the possibility of getting there I mean. You shouldn't need to ever get that close, but it happens on a lot of character types. 23:06:30 ...Not hitting the cap is why reforming fruit is important (make Fedhas a hell of a lot less annoying). 23:06:39 I'm not sure if the benefits of this are worth running up against the 51 soft limit slightly more frequently, but it is actually an idea 23:07:42 and a slow ramp up, so picking up any given item wasn't an awful choice, but you'd want to balance the number of options you have (items in inventory) versus whatever penalties you'd slowly accumulate. basically, a way to gently steer players away from "Could not pick up an item here; shall I ignore it? " 23:08:24 replace all fruit with choko 23:08:25 If it ever made a normal-speed race not normal speed that wold be a very large change 23:08:28 elliptic: just add a 53rd item slot on ^ or something 23:08:34 Crash when Qazlal dust cloud spawned in iron grate by Gerad 23:08:35 yeah I don't know what the penalty would be exactly 23:08:51 don't allow movement with an item in ^ 23:08:51 Wait, does qazlal create calcifying dust? 23:08:52 PleasingFungus: we don't want picking up spellbooks to be always a stupid idea 23:08:59 PleasingFungus: which is what you are suggesting basically 23:09:03 <|amethyst> Red_Bucket: no, "sparse dust" 23:09:04 elliptic: well, it's not, early-game 23:09:08 when your inventory is nearly empty 23:09:12 once you have 39 slots or whatever 23:09:20 <|amethyst> Red_Bucket: no effect except that Elemental Force makes an earth elemental 23:09:39 Replace lightweight fruit with 'berry' and heavy fruit with 'fruit'. keep the flavour at random like pizza slices... 23:09:41 people were talking about making certain items 'strategic' items 23:09:48 items that don't have combat relevance, basically 23:10:03 and having them not take up inventory space 23:10:07 that has issues 23:10:14 <|amethyst> not take up inventory space? 23:10:18 I mean 23:10:19 like how do you interact with those items if they don't have a letter 23:10:25 PleasingFungus: are you talking about consumables 23:10:34 ?E*, !cmut 23:10:41 minmay: nethack's 53rd space is on # 23:10:52 Do away with inventory letters altogether. Drop menu is ADOM-style, accomodating more than 52 slods; use menus assign each item to default letters (drink potion of curing would always be qc, for instance). 23:10:55 I figured it would be like you get an entry on the 'a' screen for enchant armour 23:10:57 Oh, what about just allowing reading scrolls from the ground? 23:11:00 Basil: the discussion was about those, but spellbooks fill a similar role insofar as they're not tactical 23:11:03 COULD make it so spellbooks are non-physical. (remove the option to destroy the spellbook to forget the spell or take them with you in order to throw and burn if of Trog)...instead you just get a permanent list of spells you have access to (added when you pick up the book... 23:11:05 fr: replace large rocks with iron balls 23:11:06 ontoclasm: um hello crawl is supposed to be different from nethack 23:11:09 reaverb: that's a decent bandaid 23:11:12 minmay: oh right 23:11:12 reaverb: that would be nice regardless, yes 23:11:26 <|amethyst> would need some implementable work 23:11:27 r, 23:11:28 reaverb: it wouldn't solve this issue completely because autopickup would be annoying 23:11:28 <|amethyst> err 23:11:30 wheals: throw them to cross water 23:11:33 ...or scratch the first part they can become non-physical by reading them, but while they are unopened they are trog-usable. 23:11:34 <|amethyst> s/ble/tion/ 23:11:46 elliptic: Yes 23:11:48 <|amethyst> currently most of the scroll stuff takes an item slot number 23:11:51 since it would want to pick up the scroll and give a message 23:11:57 I guess that wouldn't be too bad 23:12:10 since the message isn't a prompt 23:12:18 there's two reasons for the inventory to have 52 slots. one is to present the player with interesting choices, by limiting the options that they have available in any given situation. the other is for the interface. an implementation detail, basically. 23:12:18 Bcadren_: a simpler way to do that would be for books to stay physical items and allow you to memorize spells from all books you've seen instead of just books you have 23:12:25 I only really care about the former 23:12:35 PleasingFungus: I don't care about the former at all 23:12:41 The former doesn't really work in practice 23:12:42 huh 23:12:54 i can think of no circumstance under which the former actually occurs 23:13:02 It just means you make repeated trips to stash 23:13:37 that doesn't work if you suddenly want e.g. ?vuln or a specific evocable or similar, but you're in the middle of a fight on shoals:5 23:13:37 That's why I proposed what I just did 23:13:46 PleasingFungus: as in, I find slot limitations uninteresting and undesirable... I would be happy to have arbitrarily many slots if it didn't make the interface awful 23:13:49 also, letting you memorize spells from all books you've seen is a good excuse for removing the weird book destruction amnesia that nobody knows about :P 23:14:04 ...have to make amnesia a little more common though...just a little. 23:14:09 that amnesia is useful! but yes it is bad that nobody knows about it 23:14:10 minmay: but then how will we get sif wrath? 23:14:15 :) 23:14:20 i dont deny that its useful! 23:14:25 PleasingFungus: throw it into lava, duh 23:14:25 <|amethyst> elliptic: just make all item-manipulation commands take a ctrl-f stash search 23:14:30 heh 23:15:01 What does control-f do if there are more than 52 found things 23:15:03 elliptic: I guess there's not much for us to talk about. idk. I think inventory limits can be an interesting restriction but I think I agree with you that they don't work *right now* 23:15:27 I have ideas to fix that (some of which I put up above) but they'd be large changes 23:15:30 I've played games where inventory limits were small enough that they had a noticeable effect 23:15:32 <|amethyst> If it were 10 or 15 slots it would work 23:15:34 I didn't really like them 23:15:46 Red_Bucket: most menus that can have more than 52 things cycle 23:15:47 inventory slots as a gameplay restriction doesn't really make sense with an item system like crawl's 23:15:49 because it means so much more inventory micromanagement 23:15:49 <|amethyst> elliptic: what about doomrl? 23:15:55 based on which part of the list you're looking at 23:15:57 |amethyst: that is one of the games I was thinking about, yes 23:16:02 It works in DoomRL because you can't backtrack 23:16:10 Could make separate inventory menus for each command...you want to wield something? Here are 52 slots of weapons. Want to wear something? 52 slots of armour. You'd never actually fill it up, but...it would remove the annoyance of their being a ca... 23:16:14 doomrl has a lot fewer item types in general 23:16:15 doomrl is a bit better about it but there are still lots of items that make it work very badly 23:16:17 which doesn't work for the inventory since you want to be able to use stuff without scrolling down the menu 23:16:20 |amethyst: so much time spent deciding whether I would rather have a 5th ammo stack or a 12th medpack 23:16:25 yep 23:16:26 The inventory limit forces you to make hard decisions about medpacks vs. ammo 23:16:53 Though the decisions usually become fairly easy when you familiarize yourself with how much ammo your current build needs 23:17:17 (Pistols, usually very little; shotguns, rather more; burst, lots) 23:17:19 obviously the inventory limit in doomrl affects balance a lot, but I still can't say I found it pleasant 23:17:34 * reaverb tried to player doomrl once but the sounds annoyed him. 23:17:35 angel of light travel is like 5 inventory slots now isn't it 23:17:45 i have never played doomrl with the sound on 23:17:48 Yes, and there's also now Archangel of Light Travel 23:17:51 it helps a bit that doomrl is such a short game, btw 23:17:53 so, i have a git question; when i make a local branch, should i set an upstream? 23:17:53 2 slots 23:17:56 minmay: It actually gives you info, though. 23:17:58 elliptic: what about sil? 23:18:01 reaverb: you can turn them off (I've never played with them on either) 23:18:01 or just use merges or whatever 23:18:01 apparently. 23:18:07 elliptic: Hmm. 23:18:16 also, almost all doomrl items are useful to have in your inventory 23:18:18 ontoclasm: You don't need to 23:18:19 this is not true in crawl 23:18:23 ontoclasm: a local branch based on a remote branch, or your own local branch? 23:18:26 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:53 If you're just going to do stuff in your local branch that nobody else needs to see before you merge it into trunk or whatever, you don't need to set any remotes 23:18:55 ontoclasm: Yes, if there is no counterpart already there is no need to create one. 23:19:01 Basil: with sil I feel like the inventory limitations are a bit annoying but not that much because there aren't that many types of useful items 23:19:02 I have like two dozen local branches. 23:19:13 okay 23:19:36 yeah, i'm just putting in these icons and it's too big for me to do all at once 23:19:43 Basil: as in, unless I am smithing and carrying around lots of gear for that, I usually don't run into the limit much because I know which potions I want 23:20:15 I badly need to get work done; though I don't know if I'll pull it off. I'm going to leave though... 23:20:19 Hrm. I think maybe I'll actually try implementing no-slot-limit in CL and see if I can make a tolerable interface out of it. 23:20:21 -!- Bcadren_ has quit [Quit: ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI!] 23:21:01 Bcadren_: Don't put it off. 23:22:06 fwiw i really didn't like ADOM's item use/drop interface 23:22:16 though i liked the equip one 23:22:32 I don't either, which is why I said the use menus should assign default letters 23:22:55 But if you get rid of both weights and slot limits, you'll rarely even want to open the drop menu anyway 23:26:39 -!- tcsc has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 23:28:49 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-692-g791779a: Text tweak. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=791779a4939b 23:30:17 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32:45 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34:08 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:26 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:12 wheals: FWIW, I regard the interface as only the start of ADOM's problems. 23:38:27 i pushed some nemelex stuff and replied to the crd mail (nothing hugely exciting or major though) 23:38:46 yes, but we weren't talking about grinding or spoilery stuff right now :) 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-693-gc6a0166: Adjust the contents of decks of wonders 10(11 days ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c6a01665555d 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-694-gb7accc3: Adjust potion card effects 10(11 days ago, 1 file, 10+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b7accc331c04 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-695-g9e88b47: Add the Helix card to the deck of oddities 10(11 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e88b4757e9e 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-696-g82f6ad1: Remove decks of dungeons and a number of now-unused cards 10(8 days ago, 24 files, 129+ 387-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=82f6ad17de14 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-697-gc4feebf: Adjust wonders deck weighting 10(8 days ago, 2 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c4feebf05630 23:39:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.15-a0-698-g6186554: Remove the Sage effect 10(8 days ago, 13 files, 15+ 163-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=618655495125 23:39:09 incursion has to take the prize for worst inventory interface though 23:39:17 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:39:41 wow 23:39:47 MarvinPA doing this thing 23:40:06 Basil: rip sage 23:40:20 1learn sage see {basil} 23:40:22 welp im never drawing potion card again 23:40:32 ??sage 23:40:32 sage card[1/2]: Gives you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random). 23:40:35 potion card should give you a petition 23:40:36 ??sage[2 23:40:36 sage card[2/2]: The effect lasts until a certain amount of XP has been diverted. Multiple sages can be active at once. 23:40:52 !learn edit sage_card[1] s/$/. Removed in 0.15. 23:40:52 sage card[1/2]: Gives you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random).. Removed in 0.15. 23:40:58 btw im not convinced its worth keeping experience for deck of changes 23:41:04 !learn edit sage_card s/../. 23:41:04 Use: !learn edit sage_card[NUM] s/// 23:41:10 !learn edit sage_card[1] s/../. 23:41:11 sage card[1/2]: .ves you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random).. Removed in 0.15. 23:41:21 !learn edit sage_card[1] s/\.\./. 23:41:21 sage card[1/2]: .ves you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random). Removed in 0.15. 23:41:34 minmay: experience wasn't kept 23:41:43 !learn edit sage_card[1] s/\.ve/give 23:41:44 sage card[1/2]: gives you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random). Removed in 0.15. 23:41:56 ... 23:41:59 What did the glass card do? 23:42:08 Vitrification? 23:42:10 Baisl: I would just !learn set 23:42:14 !learn edit sage_card[1] s/gives/Gives 23:42:14 Made walls transparent. 23:42:14 sage card[1/2]: Gives you the "Sage" status, which causes 50% of all incoming XP to be multiplied a bit (1 + .5*card power) and put towards one skill (same the whole time). The skill is selected randomly, weighted towards those you know better (the weight is based on card power, and at 0 is completely random). Removed in 0.15. 23:42:18 okay 23:42:32 Hmm, some of those were decent effects. 23:42:38 For at least, say, Xom. 23:44:09 -!- nicolae- has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:41 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:44:49 wow, rip wonders 23:45:07 I remember someone was arguing for that for ages 23:45:09 crate? 23:45:12 might've been crate 23:45:44 surprised exp card went kaput 23:45:45 why even keep shuffle 23:46:02 in that it was such a horrible idea I thought no one would realize it 23:46:55 also, rip trowel card 23:48:56 MarvinPA: Was the intention of this at least partially to nerf Nemelex? 23:49:04 (because that is a good thing) 23:49:33 -!- ZRN has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:50:32 Hmm, I don't really think the Genie card is worth keeping either. 23:51:35 ??genie card 23:51:35 genie card[1/1]: 50% of the time, acts like a scroll of acquirement. The other 50% of the time acts like either a potion of decay or degeneration. 23:51:45 what deck has that 23:51:50 -!- allbefore has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:51:53 oddities i think 23:51:57 It's effectively both an acquirement card (bad like experince) and almost another copy of the potion card. 23:52:05 yeah, that is bad 23:52:18 I think if it doesn't directly relate to combat with Nemelex, it should go 23:52:21 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:52:34 give it a special kind of acquirement code so that 50% of the time it gives you a super lousy item of what you asked for, like one of those evil trickster genies 23:52:57 Lightli: tbf, oddities isn't a nemelex gift 23:53:02 good point 23:53:11 or any gift 23:53:16 ??nemelex gift 23:53:17 I don't have a page labeled nemelex_gift in my learndb. 23:53:18 ??nemelex gifts 23:53:19 I don't have a page labeled nemelex_gifts in my learndb. 23:53:32 but if the idea is to make all decks purely tactical, then yeah, it should probably go 23:53:38 It's destruction, summoning, escape, and...what was the last one? 23:53:39 though you can get it by stacking; maybe cards should be turned into Oddities on draw rather than on creation 23:53:44 -!- Quashie_ is now known as Quashie 23:53:48 wonders 23:53:51 k 23:53:54 the only good thing about genie card is that you can get it from nemelex wrath 23:54:02 wheals: That would be a bad thing 23:54:15 suddenly the tomb card you pre-prepared is now a wrath card 23:54:23 yes :) 23:54:27 ...I like it 23:54:35 The more nemelex gets nerfed, the better 23:54:47 hm 23:54:57 elliptic: Is that a sarcastic good thing or ? 23:55:14 well, it is pretty hilarious that you can get acquirement from nemelex wrath 23:55:22 I don't actually think it is good *design* though :P 23:55:30 ??deck of wonders 23:55:30 deck of wonders[1/2]: Cards: {potion card}, {focus card} (rare), {shuffle card} (very rare, not in plain decks), {experience card}, {wild magic card}, {helix card}, {sage card}, {trowel card} (rare, only in legendary decks). 23:55:33 what about acquirement from xom wrath 23:55:36 ??shuffle 23:55:37 shuffle card[1/2]: Permutes your (naked) stats (str, int, dex) randomly. Ignores power level. Found in Changes and Wonders. Can be a blessing, an annoyance, a game-breaker, or a radically game-altering moment. 23:55:40 wheals: that is fine of course 23:55:56 ive pulled a genie card when i needed something in a bad situation, that was fun 23:56:10 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:19 that's when you acquire a partially eaten cockatrice corpse 23:56:35 -!- Quashie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:41 and then pull flight card and instadie! 23:56:46 rotproof cockatrice corpse 23:56:48 <_< 23:57:21 Just don't let the monsters grab the card, or they'll get a corpse to use against you! 23:58:00 i liked the learndb entry that said monsters could use acquirement scrolls 23:58:03 Josephine gestures, and a cockatrice corpse floats close! 23:58:06 not enough to not delete it, though 23:58:19 wheals: What did it say? 23:58:45 xom wrath is better than xom worship imho 23:58:47 Reports of OOD (sometimes in-depth) monsters stealing items at the usual stash locations are rising! The Goblin picks up the scroll of acquirement! Something appears at the Goblin's feet! The Goblin picks up the banana. 23:59:03 goblins, very out of depth 23:59:20 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-699-gbfe212c: Curare needle tile 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bfe212cce2cc 23:59:22 -!- MiraclePrism has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:22 ??abyss[9 23:59:22 abyss[9/9]: This is a scroll of acquirement! What kind of item would you like to acquire? Something appears at your feet! You are suddenly pulled into a different region of the Abyss!