00:00:04 I'm going to trace what's generating those prompts. 00:00:28 |amethyst: yeah, I guess 00:01:07 deng 00:01:15 glaciated 00:01:35 gammafunk: I was playing like a jerk before then because Chrome glitched badly 00:01:43 and I couldn't see the new spawns 00:01:53 <|amethyst> oh 00:01:57 I like how you then got covered in sticky flame 00:02:01 <|amethyst> the second comes straight from remove_ring 00:02:07 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 00:02:19 You see here archaeo (frozen, on fire, raging) 00:02:35 <|amethyst> the first from remove_ring -> prompt_invent_item 00:03:35 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:03 <|amethyst> aha, and when there's only one piece of jewellery, prompt_invent_item isn't used of course 00:04:20 and I guess _puton_item also calls it an extra time, for the case in which you are swapping? 00:05:10 <|amethyst> yeah, once puton_ring -> prompt_invent_item and once puton_ring->_puton_item 00:05:27 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:39 well 00:05:49 now the question is which extra check(s) to remove... 00:05:50 |amethyst: I have a question about setting up the directories for 0.14. the wiki step 9.5 says to copy the crawl-git folder for each version I will support. is that still what I should do when moving over to 0.14? (and does it imply I shouldn't do that till right before the update?) 00:05:53 <|amethyst> I guess prompt_invent_item should indicate to its caller when it prompted 00:05:59 (https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=setting_up_dgamelaunch_and_webtiles) 00:06:12 -!- Cerpin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:21 <|amethyst> then the callers can check that and avoid the extra second prompt 00:06:43 <|amethyst> I'd rather not *remove* either of the places, because I suspect there are other situations that would trigger only one or the other 00:07:11 <|amethyst> but having it not ask if you were already prompted for this same item seems reasonable 00:07:34 <|amethyst> I guess that could be a problem if the two functions prompt you for different reasons 00:07:41 |amethyst: seems like the new versions will probably start out with a blank slate, save wise, right? or do the trunk saves ever get updated to the new version after branching? 00:07:45 <|amethyst> you might want to get two prompts with different messages in that case 00:07:50 <|amethyst> johnstein: they don't typically 00:08:04 <|amethyst> johnstein: s/typically// 00:08:14 -!- reaverb1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:08:20 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:40 |amethyst: what is the simplest way to set up a new crawl-master/crawl-0.14 directory? 00:08:51 with the appropriate stuff in it. 00:09:08 <|amethyst> johnstein: set up your dgamelaunch-config appropriately and publish that (check the commits that added 0.13) 00:09:09 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3588-g3b3a7b6 (34) 00:09:17 <|amethyst> johnstein: then trigger a rebuild of 0.14 00:09:28 ...which will fail because we don't have a 0.14 branch quite yet! 00:09:30 <_< 00:09:32 yea 00:09:37 I'm going to be gone all weekend 00:09:47 and the week really sucks time-wise for me to putz around the server 00:09:55 I'm trying to get a feel on what I can prep beforehand 00:10:45 |amethyst: in particular, I'm looking at this line: $ sudo cp -a /home/crawl/DGL/crawl-master/{crawl-git,crawl-0.13} 00:10:45 <|amethyst> johnstein: the big things you need to make it actually work outside that are the inprogress dir (next to the others, same permissions) and linking the logfiles/milestones into your web directory 00:11:07 <|amethyst> hm 00:11:10 if I do that command now, I'll copy the current crawl-git, which seems like not what I want to do 00:11:15 |amethyst: I think actually the puton_ring -> prompt_invent_item prompt is for the amulet you are putting on, not the amulet you are taking off? 00:11:21 <|amethyst> johnstein: I think that's unnecessary now 00:11:28 <|amethyst> johnstein: actually, probably always was 00:11:34 hah 00:11:46 |amethyst: but _puton_item both calls check_warning_inscriptions itself and calls remove_ring 00:11:47 <|amethyst> johnstein: I say this because I haven't been doing that when deploying experimental branches 00:11:53 <|amethyst> johnstein: and they work just like stable branches 00:11:54 |amethyst: so I don't even need to mkdir DGL/crawl-master/crawl-0.14 ? 00:12:04 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:12:15 <|amethyst> elliptic: oh, yeah, didn't think about that 00:12:19 <|amethyst> let's see 00:12:40 * Grunt prepares to go to sleep. 00:13:09 it looks to me like maybe the check_warning_inscriptions call in _puton_item is just redundant 00:13:13 -!- reaverb1 is now known as reaverb 00:13:26 not sure though 00:16:07 <|amethyst> elliptic: hm.. 00:16:42 it looks like when you drop an equipped item, it just calls remove_ring 00:16:52 with no additional checks 00:17:36 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:00 I just looked over the 0.15 plan, and I have two small questions. 00:18:32 -!- lessens_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:36 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:37 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:18:45 well, idk. one question. do the links to the 11xxx issues ( http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11250 , http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=11276 ) work for other people? 00:18:48 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:50 are they secret dev issues? 00:18:58 -!- lessens_ has left ##crawl-dev 00:19:49 ??0.15 plan 00:19:49 0.15 plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.15_plan 00:20:01 there definitely aren't that many mantis issues, where is that link from? 00:20:15 the "0.15 plan" 00:20:21 <|amethyst> I think those are supposed to be forum links 00:20:22 specifically the 'monsters' section 00:21:23 elliptic: those quotes wound me 00:21:24 also I'm curious about the plans for 'fighting reform' 00:21:40 i'm not sure that "These are features that have been discussed and agreed upon on some level." is a thing 00:22:07 Well I think there's probably some meaningful distinction between things that have more agreement and things that have less 00:22:10 (also not that it is worth worrying about at the moment) 00:22:17 otherwise there should just be one section 00:22:25 MarvinPA: feel free to edit that as you like, though 00:22:26 gammafunk: I don't mean to insult your work cleaning up the page (which is good!) but the list feels at the moment like some random list of things that people have expressed some interest in 00:22:33 which is what past plans have felt like also 00:22:50 yes, I mean that's probably the best we can do given the structure we have 00:23:04 structure meaning "how we operate" 00:23:12 i wouldn't say anything there has been "discussed" really except maybe glyph reform 00:23:29 and that's also been implemented :P 00:24:18 well, stuff has been discussed... a lot of stuff will probably be discussed more though :P 00:24:21 hrm, several have definitely been discussed 00:24:30 Well, I started writing that based on things arising from IRC discussions, but that was only about three points. Other random people started adding thjngs afterwards. 00:24:38 *things 00:24:45 and saying "likely to make it into the next release" for stuff like ranged combat overhaul is frankly optimistic :) 00:24:59 Hasn't it said that for ages now, though? 00:25:29 right 00:25:31 I don't remember that header being there! _> 00:25:33 I believe in ranged combat overhaul 00:25:34 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:25:37 well now people can make changes in one place to remove innacurate things! 00:25:43 yay! 00:26:13 ranged combat was copied from the 0.15 section; I only added the doxygen bit 00:26:24 that probably belongs in "future versions" 00:26:35 which is linked at the top 00:27:09 but some of the other things are fairly likely (like the chunk overhaul); I'm not sure how specific the plans need to be in order to be on this page 00:27:27 <|amethyst> well 00:27:29 maybe just move most things to "Possible changes" 00:27:30 (todo clean up future version page; it mostly seems to be random soapboxing right now) 00:27:36 <|amethyst> chunk overhaul is fairly likely to be tried anyway 00:27:42 wow, chunk overhaul is not one of the things I would categorize as "fairly likely"... I must be out of the loop 00:27:43 I am not sure how likely that chunk overhaul is, frankly >.> 00:27:45 i am not sure that reworking the entire food system is "fairly likely" either 00:27:47 Yeah, I didn't want to just all those future version suggestions, so 00:27:48 since I haven't heard a concrete proposal even 00:27:48 ....haha 00:27:50 <|amethyst> doesn't necessarily make it into the next release 00:28:26 ok, so I'll move anything really ambitous to "Possible changes" with a disclaimer that these are pretty speculative, how's that 00:28:41 <|amethyst> Well 00:28:45 It's probably better to stay on that page in some form, though 00:28:47 <|amethyst> this is a development planning page 00:28:53 since we talked about it for 0.15 specifically 00:29:03 <|amethyst> not a upcoming features teaser for players 00:29:29 <|amethyst> which is what "likely to make it into the next release" sounds like 00:29:53 well, what kind of things do we want on our 0.15 planning page, then 00:30:00 a blank page is always accurate! 00:30:08 <|amethyst> I'm not saying to remove anything 00:30:13 I think the list of things on the page is good (and we should add more stuff if we are interested in it) 00:30:33 I just think the text is misleading/optimistic, and players who find these pages always seem to take them far too seriously :P 00:30:57 !send gammafunk cynicism 00:30:57 Sending cynicism to gammafunk. 00:31:08 <|amethyst> Since this page is for us, better would be something like "Get your lazy ass off the couch and make sure these make it into the next release!" 00:31:08 this can just be a list of "changes that some devs are interested in trying to do in 0.15, or would like someone else to think about doing" 00:31:13 i would just reword the header to "these are features with some dev interest" or similar 00:31:16 yeah 00:31:29 dev interest for 0.15* 00:32:28 I'll use "Under Consideration" as the header and add said disclaimer 00:33:23 glyph reform or anything certain can go in "Tasks for completion" I guess 00:33:31 that should probably have a better name, but w/e 00:33:43 <|amethyst> "already implemented" :) 00:34:22 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:15 Since some people have expressed doubt about chunk overhaul: I 've already made the patch to removed chunk eating. 00:35:31 (and talked about it with dpeg) 00:35:49 so what does said patch do exactly 00:36:00 wait, you weren't here while people were expressing doubt. is there a mole in ##crawl-dev ??? 00:36:13 the channel is logged 00:36:27 elliptic: multiplies permafood nutrition by 5, makes it so only trolls and ghouls can eat chunks. Vampires are unaffected. 00:36:40 uh 00:36:42 (what about kobolds) 00:36:44 ??meat ration 00:36:44 food[1/4]: Goes in mouth/beak. Without carnivore or herbivore: Royal jelly weighs 5.5, is 5000 nutrition. Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition. Honeycomb weighs 4, is 2000 nutrition. A chunk weighs 10, is 1000 nutrition. Takes 4 turns to eat rations, 3 for chunks, 1 for ambrosia, and 2 turns for all other food. 00:36:55 25000 is a lot of nutrition 00:37:05 isn't that more than the cap? 00:37:12 Isn't the cap like 7000? 00:37:13 I'd think so 00:37:15 12000 is the cap. 00:37:20 #define HUNGER_MAXIMUM 11900 00:37:33 elliptic: Yes, I was going to deal with that.. 00:37:35 Oops, 7000 is just 'satiated' isn't it? 00:37:41 Well, it was 12000 before starvation was moved from 100... 00:37:54 It wasn't meant to be an end all be all, just enough to see if the concept is worth persuring. 00:37:55 rip rounder numbers 00:38:18 dpeg suggested turning it to multiplying the number of rations in the game, but I didn't want to, for example, modify the food vault.s 00:39:00 multiplying the number of rations in the game seems better to me, yes 00:39:09 I also considered just raising the hunger Maximum for testing. 00:39:09 <|amethyst> what about spriggans? 00:39:13 and reducing their weight 00:39:14 OR 00:39:17 removing weight limits !!! 00:39:17 I'm more concerned about what the plan is for the other species with food weirdnesses, yes 00:39:26 don't forget mutations 00:39:33 and amulet of the gourmand 00:39:34 felid/kobolds can't eat bread/fruit currently, which means they have far less permafood 00:40:07 would we just remove this and let them eat everything also? 00:40:25 would spriggans have normal metabolism? 00:40:59 there are a lot of questions that I think need to be addressed in one way or another before this is tested out 00:41:07 Yeah 00:41:29 I think it's a lot less straightforward than it has been talked about as in some places 00:41:32 to be clear, I'm in favor of testing out a change in this direction... I just think this sort of thing needs serious consideration and a full proposal 00:41:34 I was thinking (and since dpeg didn't mention any of this when we talked it over so I presume he agrees) that it would go in as is, then corrected according to feedback, which we know will be bad. 00:41:54 Well There's lots of time. Not going in until after the tourny at soonest. 00:42:04 yes 00:42:13 <|amethyst> corrected according to player feedback? 00:42:36 -!- iFurril has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:03 |amethyst: Yes. (I was assuming this would be experimental first.) 00:44:19 <|amethyst> so really corrected according to what the influential players convince the hivemind of 00:44:23 I am a little wary of trying out such a major change in a 'obviously incomplete' state and then just hoping solutions to the various problems will be found that way 00:44:40 Well, I suppose in an experimental branch, maybe 00:45:06 <|amethyst> Yeah, I think it would be reasonable in an experimental branch 00:45:26 player input is better at assessing balance and stuff than at figuring out basic design questions, IMO 00:45:52 I'm not sure how playing this branch will give any insight into what to do about spriggans, for instance 00:46:17 |amethyst: Yes, I never thought this would go directly into trunk. 00:46:42 <|amethyst> One thing I worry about related to tuning numbers... 00:47:04 <|amethyst> we've had plenty of chance to tune numbers to make starvation more of a risk 00:47:08 <|amethyst> and haven't done it yet 00:47:30 I am not personally convinced it would be even good for the game if it WAS a real risk in general 00:47:38 elliptic: Isn't the "major design decision" removing chunks? And the species diets/tuning numbers the "assessing balance" part? 00:47:39 i don't think that has ever been a goal really? 00:48:11 reaverb: figuring out what to do about all the different species isn't a matter of tuning numbers though 00:48:13 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:19 it needs design vision 00:48:28 Yeah, for such a fundamental game mechanic rework, some more serious planning is needed 00:48:29 maybe dpeg has such a vision already, I don't know 00:48:57 <|amethyst> dpeg has mentioned that species food mutations need to be revised 00:49:06 <|amethyst> I don't know if he's gone into detail about how to do that 00:49:26 right, I know he is aware of the issues... I'd like it if any patch we tried out was also aware of the issues :) 00:49:45 There's been a few discussions on the Tavern about ti, and dpeg's given a bit of flesh to his ideas IIRC. 00:50:45 Tavern not a mainstay of dev discussion though; don't worry reaverb, we will be talking about it after 0.14, but we don't want to just push something mostly broken out fast 00:51:15 adding links to existing discussion in the 0.15 page would be a good start 00:51:16 I think 00:51:22 DracoOmega: yeah, whenever tightening the "food clock" has been brought up in the past, there have been concerns that early game starvation due to bad luck would not be much fun 00:51:30 I think it needs its own page, really 00:51:36 or that! 00:51:49 gammafunk: Yes, but in this case dpeg clearly described his vision on what chunk reform would be: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9246 00:52:11 -!- Fusha has quit [] 00:52:35 Specifically, he suggests overgenerating permafood at the start, then tuning it down over time until a proper level is reached. 00:52:37 elliptic: Well, I don't think lategame starvation to slowly using up supplies faster than you can find them would be much fun either, to be honest 00:53:03 reaverb: that's a thread with 63 posts; if there's to be a centralized page with dpeg's ideas, that'd actually be useful 00:53:26 gammafunk: Just grep for dpeg. He has an excellent post on the first page. 00:53:29 reaverb: you can make a page with dpeg's ideas and show it to him for feedback, if you like 00:53:46 reaverb: we can't post comments to dpeg's post in the forum :p 00:53:58 at least, that's not the way we'd want to do that 00:54:01 gammafunk: Maybe, but I should really be sleeping right now so it won't happen immediately. 00:54:02 wiki is better for it 00:54:16 dpeg might want to do it himself, anyhow 00:54:37 best suggestion in that thread is 'remove ely' 00:54:59 DracoOmega: yeah, it is certainly debatable... I have to say that I have sort of enjoyed the games in which I've come close to running out of permafood later on (due to carelessness earlier on and using very hungering abilities/spells), but those are a very occasional thing and I might not like them so much if they were more common 00:55:24 <|amethyst> what if you run out of food because you scummed a little too much? 00:55:33 <|amethyst> what if you run out of food because you scummed a lot too much? 00:55:34 I've played some other roguelikes were food is a very real concern on an ongoing basis, and the RNG involved really does feel unpleasant sometimes 00:55:46 I've heard Brogue can be like that 00:56:04 I have not played Brogue. I hear it did the food clock well, though? 00:56:16 But some of these are a bit of a crapshoot more than rarely, and that kind of sucks 00:56:27 I guess I also might not like running out of permafood if killing monsters never gives any food 00:56:33 brogue did it particularly badly entirely as a result of trying to compensate for the rng involved i think 00:56:40 Oh? 00:56:59 haha that thread. "I haven't read the thread because it's very likely to be really annoying," 00:57:02 because it turned out that you would virtually always find a ration on certain depths, since it tried to guarantee x nutrition per y depth or something 00:57:21 What's wrong with having gaurenteed rations or something? 00:57:21 since part of the interest in the games I've played was that I wanted to kill monsters for the chance at chunks (but didn't want to use up too much nutrition doing so) 00:57:26 there is a good thread on the brogue forums with a mango table 00:57:40 yes 00:57:41 that tells you where you will find your rations, depending on how many mangoes you have found 00:57:47 Oh, wow 00:57:52 nice 00:57:52 well, i think thats changed up now 00:57:55 and its not as predictable? 00:57:55 (ration and mango are the two food types) 00:57:56 I thought you meant more like 'Generate a ration every X floors, gaurenteed' 00:57:58 i know that was for an older version 00:58:04 Which sounded fine to me 00:58:11 but yeah, i think it's now fixed but that was how it worked for quite a long time :P 00:58:21 yeah, very bizarre thing 00:58:46 elliptic: Yes, I have had a game or two like that, and that's not so bad, but the fact that you CAN keep it going perpetually by playing in a particular conservative way is what makes it okay, I think? 00:59:09 DracoOmega: I wouldn't call it conservative 00:59:15 Well, conservative with food use, I mean 00:59:21 This might mean more risk-taking :P 00:59:26 In other areas 00:59:35 right 00:59:58 But you still have some measure of control over it, rather than 'I hope the game generates a ration now', even if you ALSO hope the game generates a ration now 01:00:22 yeah 01:01:02 anyway I don't think the point of removing chunk-eating is to tighten the hunger clock 01:01:35 Yes, I've never seen anybody mention the hunger clock as an incentive for this. 01:02:26 It's always been about not needing to butcher a corpse multiple times every floor. 01:04:04 (I do think there could be some issues with the disparity in nutrition usage between different builds - some chars probably eat 10 times as much as others currently - but that's what testing is for) 01:04:44 <|amethyst> I mean, if we start with a far-too-generous amount of food 01:05:02 <|amethyst> then we should tighten the food clock at that point 01:05:06 -!- krzysz00 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:05:14 <|amethyst> but how will we recognise that it is too generous? 01:05:31 <|amethyst> that people are casting firestorm too mcuh? 01:06:39 <|amethyst> that it becomes possible to do mummy-style scumming with normal races? 01:07:06 I'd say at ^ point. 01:07:38 That seems unlikely even if there was 10 times as much nutrition to go around as now, no? 01:07:39 it already basically is possible for a human to scum lair with an amulet of the gourmand 01:08:00 so I'm not really sure eliminating that should be a concern, since it doesn't seem to be an issue currently 01:08:19 <|amethyst> I mean, presumably we're keeping food for a reason 01:08:32 <|amethyst> rather than just making everyone into mummies 01:08:53 <|amethyst> what is that reason? 01:09:59 well, currently food plays a role even if you imagine always having infinite chunks - because getting from satiated to starving from casting spells is quite plausible within a single fight 01:10:35 so it acts as some sort of check on spamming some spells/abilities 01:10:47 <|amethyst> what about restoring the food meter to full on resting? 01:10:55 remove food so i can achive my goal of evaporating all swamp water 01:10:58 <|amethyst> I guess that's sort of like djinn glow 01:11:05 it also discourages wandering back and forth too much at present. not convinced that's actually interesting, though 01:13:00 |amethyst: the main other thing I can think of that food does currently is that it keeps berserkers from berserking in every single battle 01:13:33 elyvilon 01:13:55 <|amethyst> so I guess those are two things to keep an eye on when evaluating the numbers 01:13:56 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:10 <|amethyst> three 01:14:19 elyvilon hunger usage is similar to high-hunger spells in how it works 01:14:48 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15:04 elliptic: yeah, also rod evocations I guess, which is like spell usage 01:15:06 hunger also comes up if you heavily use high-hunger-cost evocables - e.g. +Inv, rod of clouds 01:15:10 beaten 01:15:12 PleasingFungus: 2slow 01:15:15 rip 01:15:46 +inv is short-medium-term balanced by glow & long-term balanced (?) by hunger cost 01:16:03 actually idk if the second part of that statement is true 01:16:30 I've had hunger "problems" from using +Inv a bunch, but I think the contam problems were a bigger deal 01:16:34 +Inv is sort of like berserk 01:16:44 and really that was probably back when we had nausea 01:17:20 Asterion (05H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 150 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Dam: 40, 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(100) | Vul: 08holy, 11silver | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 3029 | Sp: major destruction (3d20), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d22), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d24), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d25), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d27), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d28), spectral weapon, haste / major destruction (3d6), spectral weapon, haste | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 01:17:20 %??Asterion 01:17:22 yeah, in the case of berserk, it's usage is dominated by early game and a bit less in mid game 01:18:15 I'm not sure about the +Inv thing because you don't hear about super awesome Mummies who got an early +Inv ring. It's not unbalanced without food in that case. 01:18:31 -!- thedefinite has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 01:18:41 Well mummies also have terrible aptitudes 01:18:51 yeah, and it takes very significant evo to use reliably 01:18:54 upwards of 10, maybe? 01:18:54 inv food usage isn't that huge anyway really 01:19:00 yeah 01:19:11 PleasingFungus: +Inv is effective even with 0 evo against single monsters 01:19:23 step out of sight of the monster, try until it succeeds, then go stab it 01:19:27 mm 01:19:31 I suppose there's not much cost on failure 01:19:32 unlike spells 01:19:38 0 cost except a turn 01:19:45 a turn has a food cost 01:19:47 !!! 01:20:10 yes theres no fail cost other than the turn 01:20:11 Oh yes, hunger also stops mummy stabbing. 01:20:32 That could be solved by not making monster fall back asleep if you leave for long enough, though. 01:20:56 it doesn't really stop it currently anyway unless you are using it on every monster 01:21:01 honestly I think there's already a decent reason not to mummystab, re: score 01:21:19 I feel like people actually care about score in crawl, and it depends very heavily on time? I could be wrong though 01:21:21 often if a nasty monster wakes up, I just go to a different branch, clear a little there, run into a nasty awake monster there, and go back 01:21:31 most people don't care about score 01:21:38 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:50 most people also don't try to 'play optimally', though 01:21:53 or indeed, well at all 01:22:00 PleasingFungus: I have never considered score. I won't use it as a justification. 01:22:05 huh 01:22:07 ok 01:22:16 I said I could be wrong, and I am 01:22:28 -!- Voker57 has quit [] 01:22:35 pity. it'd be a good balance mechanism 01:22:50 Yeah, score isn't relevant for most design issues; aiming for higher score is essentially a way of setting a higher difficulty level in crawl 01:23:03 Well, scoring in Crawl demands a very specific playstyle 01:23:07 And not just a 'good' one 01:23:28 DracoOmega: there are bad aspects yes, but in general it's difficult to achieve and requirest very good gameplay 01:23:42 You can improve score somewhat just by playing 'well', but getting REAL scores demands playing almost entirely differently than normal play 01:23:43 The people who get good scores are good at crawl, at least 01:23:50 true 01:24:01 re dracoomega 01:24:06 Well, people with very high scores are very good, yes. But plenty of people without them are also very good. 01:24:10 They're just not doing the same thing 01:24:17 Well how are you definiing real? It's a community definition, not one really encoded in the game 01:24:42 Oh, by 'REAL' there I just meant 'high' 01:25:02 In relative terms here 01:25:17 Yeah, we have the notions of streaks and winrate to track the other ways players can be amazing, and we likewise don't design around those concepts 01:25:43 <|amethyst> New Game + 01:25:47 heh 01:26:22 Yes, certainly don't design around scoring here. I meant that scoring is even LESS central to normal play in Crawl than it is in many games 01:26:33 Where scoring high tends to line up more naturally with normal skilled play 01:28:03 <|amethyst> also, scoring for winning games is very different from nonwinning 01:28:45 <|amethyst> for the latter it's just gold + steppeddown XP 01:29:12 <|amethyst> hm 01:29:20 <|amethyst> actually, that comment looks wrong 01:29:45 <|amethyst> the smaller rune term does get added for nonwinning games 01:29:48 -!- Stout has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:30:51 yeah, at some point scoring was changed to give some extra points for runes in non-wins 01:31:34 Yeah, and to correct my previous statement, I guess we actually are planning around "winrate" and to some extent streaks (since the two are obviously related) 01:33:32 Well, that IS more representative of normal play 01:34:19 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:34:22 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:21 elliptic: how realistic does aut scoring sound for 0.15? 01:35:32 of course it's not the most pressing issue 01:35:51 not at all pressing, in fact 01:36:07 Those poor poor Chei speedruns 01:36:25 nonethousand: well, it needs a plan for spider form / haste 01:36:46 yes, hmm 01:36:56 DracoOmega: I will be sad to see them go 01:37:38 nonethousand: incidentally, did I ever tell you that I discovered that naga/chei doesn't actually let you regenerate "faster" currently 01:37:51 elliptic: oh? you did not 01:37:59 what's the deal? 01:38:13 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:38:32 -!- eb has quit [] 01:38:37 because there is code that I had forgotten about that makes it so that walking at movement delays of > 10 are treated as delay 10 for regeneration and hunger purposes 01:39:13 the reason being so that nagas don't have an annoying time with hunger 01:39:41 really? interesting, Yermak certainly employed chei walking to regen in his recent formicid speedrun 01:40:03 I could have sworn it worked but I haven't tested it 01:40:06 yeah, players have certainly assumed that this worked for a while... sapher did in the !hs * game for instance 01:40:14 hitting the air with an exec axe is the real tech 01:40:24 or a wielded scroll :\ 01:41:25 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:44:23 I think removing fast move from spider form could be justified for mechanical reasons, anyway. I don't want to encourage changing gameplay to make a scoring system work in the case of spider form or haste, of course. Though hopefully we can think of something which will work with an aut-based system and also will be better 01:49:29 elliptic: yeah, I guess he did play Na for that reason, but I think the real help of Na was that a species with good resists, more hp, and decent apts let him survive the trip to vaults in 2.3k and then get his first gift 01:49:36 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:16 not to mention spit poison 01:51:29 still amazes me to think of surviving up to vaults and into some of it with nothing more than the offensive powers of call imp, conjure flame, and meph 01:53:00 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:55:24 gammafunk: sure, Na is not necessarily a bad choice anyway... he also had constriction at XL 1 in that version iirc 01:55:43 (not that he did much melee) 01:59:20 !hs * -4 01:59:22 3072203/3072206. Yermak the Ninja (L22 SpAs of Dithmenos), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-01-18 01:19:16, with 48050858 points after 29929 turns and 8:16:23. 01:59:28 !hs * -3 01:59:29 3072204/3072206. elliptic the Demonologist (L23 MuSu of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-09-13 19:39:50, with 52436210 points after 27371 turns and 8:00:10. 01:59:54 I should watch the DEWz and your MuSu as well 02:00:55 -!- wat has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:01:02 !lg elliptic MuSu 02:01:03 3. elliptic the Demonologist (L23 MuSu of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-09-13 19:39:50, with 52436210 points after 27371 turns and 8:00:10. 02:01:06 oh my god 02:01:08 3 games 02:01:20 bow down to your master 02:01:24 !lg sapher NaWz 02:01:24 79. Sapher the Magician (L3 NaWz of Sif Muna), demolished by an ogre (a +0,+0 giant club) on D:5 on 2012-11-08 08:09:19, with 49 points after 184 turns and 0:08:07. 02:01:42 wow, he even played *another* one after that win 02:01:47 haha 02:01:52 Maybe he could win harder 02:03:20 anyway I'm still not sure whether NaWz or DEWz was actually better than MuSu, since Sapher did take more tries and I'm pretty sure he was also better than me at exploring with dig spell 02:05:34 yeah, and a d:12->d:15 shaft next to vaults and probably other such luck 02:05:43 pan in 3.4k or something ridiculous like that 02:05:56 fr inter-branch shafts 02:06:04 rip dig spell 02:09:26 -!- schistosoma has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:35 !killratio Tiamat 02:09:37 Tiamat wins 4.080% of battles. 02:09:43 haha holy shit 02:09:49 !killratio Boris 02:09:51 -!- Netmonmatt has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:09:51 Boris wins 2.369% of battles. 02:09:55 tiamat is no joke 02:10:01 I have literally never seen tiamat 02:10:16 I guess someday I want to but also now I'm kind of afraid? 02:10:34 She's one of those "you probably don't want to fight it" uniques 02:10:48 i killed her rather fast with a gsc and spectral weapon in my last encounter 02:10:52 !killratio murray 02:10:54 murray wins 0.316% of battles. 02:10:56 rip 02:11:03 murray is great 02:11:04 !killratio jory 02:11:06 jory wins 2.428% of battles. 02:11:07 !killratio tiamat * recent 02:11:07 !killratio ignacio 02:11:09 tiamat wins 2.306% of battles against * (recent). 02:11:11 ignacio wins 1.934% of battles. 02:11:17 !killratio jory * !recent 02:11:17 !killratio ignacio * recent 02:11:19 jory wins 0.155% of battles against * (!recent). 02:11:20 ignacio wins 1.648% of battles against * (recent). 02:11:21 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:22 I think tiamat's killratio dropped a lot when she lost her GDA 02:11:28 someone should probably buff her 02:11:32 haha 02:11:38 sometimes I wonder if timbw just goes around finding new dev features 02:11:40 Tiamat (16d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 22 | HP: 380 | AC/EV: 39/20 | Dam: 60, 45 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(58), 02cold, 03poison | Vul: 11silver | XP: 9228 | Sp: b.lightning (3d25) / b.quicksilver (3d20) / cold breath (3d28) / fire breath (3d28) / poisonous cloud (3d13) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:11:40 %??tiamat 02:11:40 and dies to them 02:11:50 !lg * ikiller=~crusher -tv 02:11:51 though maybe not, that AC is high 02:11:51 5. timbw, XL14 MfGl, T:10336 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 02:11:57 holy shit that ac 02:12:00 so maybe she got AC to compensate 02:12:18 -!- Eonwe1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:21 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:12:22 make her 41/31 02:12:31 you mean 46/31 surely 02:12:36 she has a special cloak! 02:12:45 oh right, is the cloak +4? 02:12:48 yes 02:13:00 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:33 Tiamat (16d) | Spd: 15 | HD: 22 | HP: 570 | AC/EV: 39/20 | Dam: 90, 67 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(58), 02cold, 03poison | Vul: 11silver | XP: 9228 | Sp: b.lightning (3d25) / b.quicksilver (3d20) / cold breath (3d28) / fire breath (3d28) / poisonous cloud (3d13) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:13:33 %??tiamat perm_ench:berserk 02:13:44 -!- MiraclePrism has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:45 -!- simmarine_ is now known as simmarine 02:15:11 thats actually not as much mr as i expect from a unique 02:15:29 yeah that's... huh 02:15:34 that's an achilles heel 02:15:42 I wonder if you could paralyze-stab her 02:15:52 That IS strangely low 02:16:12 Enslave 02:16:22 yesss 02:16:30 take tiamat to clear z:5 02:16:42 red draconian (05d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 81-115 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(37), 05fire | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1234 | Sp: fire breath (3d18) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:16:42 %??red draconian 02:16:48 Okay, still slightly more than them 02:16:59 Though even THAT is lower than I expected 02:17:09 yeah that's 02:17:11 very odd 02:17:29 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:17:32 yes dr dont have much mr 02:17:56 Hmmm... I have this nagging feeling I'm forgetting something (as I tie up loose ends for 0.14 here) 02:18:08 red draconian annihilator (12d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 68-90 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(42), 05fire | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1492 | Sp: fire breath (3d20), b.lightning (3d21), crystal spear (3d35), blink, iron shot (3d29), poison arrow (3d23) | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 02:18:08 %??red draconian annihilator 02:18:11 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 02:18:49 Of course, I also expected to be done hours ago, but I ALWAYS expect to be done hours (days (weeks)) before I am 02:20:05 vault guard (10@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 53-88 | AC/EV: 1/13 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 06magic(52) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1084 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 02:20:05 %??vault guard 02:20:16 storm dragon (12D) | Spd: 12 | HD: 14 | HP: 87-124 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Dam: 25, 15, 1507(trample) | fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 11elec+++, 12drown | XP: 2315 | Sp: b.lightning (3d19) | Sz: Huge | Int: animal. 02:20:16 %??storm dragon 02:27:41 Oh, I remember one tiny little thing I was never quite satisfied with, minor though it is 02:28:53 That is, despite its utility, mana viper is likely to be outshone by menagerie by most people who would consider it given that they only ever occur in the same book, and it might be nice if mana viper was somewhere else instead (so that you might pick it up if you had one and not the other), but I was never sure where else it could be put 02:29:56 ??mana viper 02:29:56 mana viper[1/1]: 0.14 Snake monster. Speed 14, only a little stronger than black mambas, but has an af_antimagic bite. Magic immune. 02:30:05 ??summon mana viper 02:30:05 summon mana viper[1/1]: 0.14+: Level 5 Summ/Hex spell which summons mana vipers. The antimagic effect increases with spellpower, but the vipers' tankiness does not. 02:30:27 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:30:29 a hexes book? 02:30:51 There's the book of hinderance, I guess? 02:30:56 I don't know if it fits there or not 02:32:54 people were talking about how they weren't sure why hinderance existed? so this might give it some love 02:33:32 Hmmm 02:36:10 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0a1/20140324030203]] 02:39:38 Well, if no one objects or offers some other on-topic comment, I may just do that 02:40:52 ??hinderance 02:40:53 I don't have a page labeled hinderance in my learndb. 02:40:56 ??book of hinderance 02:40:56