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ZZZzzz…] 00:06:29 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3120-g6e425e4 (34) 00:11:13 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:18 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:19:35 wheals: doh 00:19:57 Grunt: also, ring of shadows had ac_c_-4 00:31:06 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:07 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:09 -!- rast- is now known as rast 00:31:28 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:08 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Quit: BirdoPrey] 00:42:03 -!- Mushboom has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:44:06 %git :/hadow 00:44:06 07DracoOmega02 {Grunt} * 0.14-a0-3045-gaf7676b: Replace Summon Ugly Thing with Summon Menagerie (pending a better name) 10(12 days ago, 23 files, 78+ 74-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=af7676b698ee 00:47:02 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:47 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:52:23 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:52:58 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:47 -!- magicpoints has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:22 -!- Crehl_ has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 01:00:00 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:22 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:32 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 01:01:35 -!- rast- is now known as rast 01:15:13 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:04 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:21 hmm draco not here 01:16:31 seeing bug reports of people being perma-poisoned while not taking damage 01:16:51 one of a troll with regen, another of a chei worshipping with slow poison 01:17:09 oh its fixed i guess nevermind 01:21:51 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:23:22 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:25:04 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:59 -!- SeianVerian has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:32:10 -!- SeianVerian_ is now known as SeianVerian 01:35:43 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:47 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:32 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:35 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:00 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:18 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:47:59 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:50:05 -!- Yashichi has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:52:45 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- 64MAAHPZ8 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- Elsi has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- crate has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- Lasty2 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:46 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:52 -!- Sequell has quit [Excess Flood] 01:53:35 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 01:53:35 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:09 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:23 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:29 -!- rast- is now known as rast 01:56:34 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:57:13 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:06 fr: dcss-squarelos 01:58:29 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:38 -!- 64MAAHPZ8 is now known as dtsundere 02:02:47 -!- dtsundere has quit [Quit: dtsundere] 02:03:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:03:58 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:43 there's a new bug on webtiles 02:04:57 what's the "monster viewing part" called 02:05:04 %git 02:05:04 07gammafunk02 * 0.14-a0-3120-g6e425e4: Fix the monster list is WebTiles and unbreak Arena. 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 30+ 24-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6e425e4dfe8d 02:05:16 that should probably fix it once things are rebuilt 02:05:28 okay 02:06:21 -!- Kaput has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:07:43 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 02:12:53 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 02:17:11 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3120-g6e425e4 (34) 02:17:50 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:18:43 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:38 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:20:46 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:08 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:08 -!- Sgun has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:18 -!- rast- is now known as rast 02:21:36 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:08 -!- Kasofa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:24:31 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:24:40 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:05 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:26:16 -!- rast- is now known as rast 02:30:46 -!- Basil_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:30:58 -!- simmarine_ is now known as simmarine 02:35:41 -!- scummos__ has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:45 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:36:32 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:55 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:48 -!- wheals has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:41:54 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:23 -!- Staplegun has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:45:30 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:47:06 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3121-g2c4a4c3: Make Pan lords always see invisible 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c4a4c3f1545 02:47:06 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3122-g9b9bc38: Make non-spellcasting random pan lords rarer 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9b9bc38f1eb7 02:47:06 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3123-g96b5090: Reduce the speed bonus from boots of running for player ghosts 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=96b50902ceea 02:48:39 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:56 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:50 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:54:35 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:37 -!- rast- is now known as rast 02:54:51 -!- nubcakes has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:55:53 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:59 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:59:39 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:44 -!- rast- is now known as rast 03:01:05 -!- rorriMnmaD has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:03:21 -!- BobBarker has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:39 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:31 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:38 !seen bh 03:17:38 dpeg: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:17:39 I last saw bh at Fri Mar 7 02:22:20 2014 UTC (6h 55m 18s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Page closed'. 03:18:35 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:59 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:23:04 Linley did reply! 03:23:16 I immediately sacrificed a guinea pig in the chimney, of course. 03:24:31 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:26:03 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:26:07 -!- rast- is now known as rast 03:29:38 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:31 -!- rast has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:34:30 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:34:46 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:35:29 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:11 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:36:18 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:47 -!- ldf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:38:04 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:23 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Client Quit] 03:39:01 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 03:44:25 -!- nubcakes has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:44:55 dpeg: what do you think of this idea: http://pastie.org/pastes/8878404/text 03:45:22 i guess the main problem with it is that you can't just press - to open up the shops 03:45:49 nobody here to celebrate the good news? 03:46:29 wheals: looks good! 03:46:37 Would - still unravel shop contents_ 03:46:57 no, that's the thing 03:47:01 I also wonder if we should print a second line, so that players are forced to realise the existence of ! 03:47:21 could also be done in the shop line itself ("press ! to see the stock") 03:49:17 wheals: sorry for stream of consciousness 03:49:28 could we aggregate the shops at the top? 03:51:07 -!- Surr_ is now known as Surr 03:51:21 but I think already your commit is an improvement... these lists get really annoyingly long 03:53:35 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:56:35 hm, i think i do have a better idea 03:57:11 -!- wat1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:58:14 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:58 -!- eith has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:10 what is it? 04:03:11 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:03:25 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 04:10:05 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 04:10:36 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:10 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:23 -!- rast- is now known as rast 04:12:06 if the search would only return shops, make it combine stacks by default 04:12:28 -!- master_j has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 04:12:29 like what you suggested, but i think i can do it without a special case for any search term 04:13:10 Webtiles monster side-bar displays incorrect monsters by nubinia 04:16:15 03wheals02 07* 0.14-a0-3124-g91bad65: Be friendlier when searching for shops. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=91bad6597039 04:16:33 dpeg: that's my attempt 04:20:20 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:21 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:21:21 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:22:35 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:16 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:23:24 -!- rast- is now known as rast 04:24:50 okay! 04:24:57 many thanks 04:26:20 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:17 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38:35 -!- wafeaf has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:39:00 -!- thug_lessons is now known as lessens 04:39:13 -!- Pepe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:50:13 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:51:00 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:02:03 -!- omnirizon has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:59 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:33 -!- wheals has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:17 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 05:28:47 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 05:31:26 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:31:30 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:40 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:28 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 05:53:49 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:46 -!- duralumin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:12:29 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:12:49 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:13:11 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:11 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 06:13:11 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:03 -!- Naraceaus has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:19:46 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:19:53 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:03 ScarletJ (L1 VpAs) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 200: Stack underflow in string "Lua error: /dgldir/rcfiles/crawl-git/ScarletJ.rc:115: ')' expected near '""'" (D:1) 06:37:09 ScarletJ (L1 VpAs) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 200: Stack underflow in string "Lua error: /dgldir/rcfiles/crawl-git/ScarletJ.rc:115: ')' expected near '""'" (D:1) 06:46:37 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:48:35 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 06:55:12 <|amethyst> hahah 06:55:33 <|amethyst> Lua error: %s has problems when the error itself has unbalanced colour tags :) 06:57:05 <|amethyst> Or, more generally, users can crash the game any time they want with crawl.mpr("") 06:59:12 ScarletJ (L1 VpAs) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 200: Stack underflow in string "Lua error: /dgldir/rcfiles/crawl-git/ScarletJ.rc:92: unfinished string near '" monsters can smite you.'" (D:1) 07:00:37 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:02:00 <|amethyst> hm 07:34:29 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:53 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:28 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:35 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:40 -!- rast- is now known as rast 07:41:10 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3125-g83871be: Display extra closing colour tags rather than crashing. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=83871be09f80 07:41:10 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3126-g9185c9f: Also display mismatched closing colour tags. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9185c9f764d8 07:41:12 <|amethyst> I hope we don't have a lot of places where we close colour tags with the wrong colour 07:41:12 <|amethyst> Because I just pushed something that will display those as a warning 07:42:30 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3126-g9185c9f (34) 07:42:59 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:23 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:29 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 08:11:28 |amethyst: I had a warning for that briefly in WebTiles, but gave up on it. 08:12:22 There is no escaping in various user input places too... 08:13:04 inscriptions and level annotations at least 08:13:50 -!- Staplefun has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:15:18 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:17:21 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 08:19:48 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:55 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:22 -!- vtuzov has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:00 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:26:10 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:30:54 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 27.0.1/20140222044143]] 08:34:42 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3127-g5fcec12: Close colour tags in "Items here:". 10(41 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fcec126f3bc 08:36:14 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:18 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:44:46 -!- Foamed has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:45:51 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3127-g5fcec12 (34) 08:49:49 -!- magicpoints has quit [] 08:57:15 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:00:59 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:01 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:42 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:23 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:59 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:15:21 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:38 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:07 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:31 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:40 -!- rast- is now known as rast 09:42:05 -!- Mateji has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:50 -!- Wah has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:45 -!- Sorbius has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53:58 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:29 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:27 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:44 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:07:05 "The poster is just asking for the game not to unnecessarily reinforce stereotypes about masculine and feminine roles." 10:07:05 aaaaaaaahhahahaha 10:07:06 Because social structures that have existed for millenia are a Really Bad Thing to base something off. 10:07:08 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 10:07:23 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:45 for thousands of years, men and women pooped and pissed in the streets, together 10:07:53 is that so bad a way to run a society? 10:07:53 -!- brainwrinkle has quit [Excess Flood] 10:08:49 -!- Aryth has quit [Excess Flood] 10:09:03 -!- HellTiger has quit [Excess Flood] 10:09:04 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:04 -!- cr0ne has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 10:09:05 -!- phyphor has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 10:09:08 -!- Nethris has quit [Ping timeout: 1304 seconds] 10:09:12 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:09:33 merging mermaids with normal mer is kind of dumb for gameplay reasons, I think, but I'd be fine with renaming them to 'mer entrancers' or something like that. 10:10:27 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:18 i'd rather propose renaming Merfolk to Merman 10:12:38 hahaha 10:12:41 that's really dumb! 10:13:03 <|amethyst> I'd say just remove the connection between mermaids and merfolk 10:13:32 ? 10:14:13 Well mermaids are mostly ineffective versions of sirens, right 10:14:20 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 10:14:51 pretty much 10:15:00 <|amethyst> Right now player merfolk are considered "same genus" as mermaids for various purposes 10:15:11 <|amethyst> Remove that and possibly rename either merfolk or mermaids as well 10:15:11 Mermaids are like sirens except they temporarily turn your god into Cheibriados for the purpose of maneuvering. 10:15:21 Instead of dragging you out to sea. 10:15:37 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:15:55 why not do all of these things: 10:16:02 <|amethyst> I never considered merfolk male though 10:16:14 <|amethyst> Ilsuiw is a merfolk, not a mermaid, and is female 10:16:16 merfolk have big wizard beards 10:16:23 uh 10:17:24 Well, tiles merfolk. 10:17:30 merfolk are pretty clearly non-gendered like most other monsters yeah 10:17:48 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:20 My suggestion basically is just that mermaids don't need to exist and if needed sirens can exist slightly more 10:18:40 I mean sirens even pick up polearms sometimes, clearly the exact same thing 10:19:12 (Just, um, add a damage rating for them or something I guess??) 10:19:20 siren (11m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 72-96 | AC/EV: 4/12 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(121), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1060 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 10:19:20 %??Siren 10:19:22 mermaid (10m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | HP: 26-46 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 17 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(53), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 349 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 10:19:22 %??Mermaid 10:19:24 merfolk (04m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 48-73 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 24 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 321 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 10:19:24 %??Merfolk 10:19:46 wow mermaid have lower HD than merfolk, sexism 10:19:54 It doesn't seem good to make a gameplay choice on the basis of addressing this sort of issue 10:20:02 this game is so sexist 10:20:19 Sure, I think you could legitimately argue that mermaids do not need to exist regardless though 10:20:20 i mean you the adventurer might become the strongest creature in the dungeon of zot 10:20:32 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:32 furthermore, so what if this evil society of merfolk whose territory you invade and whose people you arbitrarily kill, is sexist? 10:22:08 Well when I said sexism it was a throwaway joke because hashing out morality in crawl is kind of silly for the most part 10:23:49 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:21 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:08 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3128-g7eca78f: Make mermaids/sirens unrelated to player merfolk. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7eca78f8824b 10:26:08 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3129-g9730105: Don't imply merfolk are all male. 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9730105c08dd 10:26:10 SwissStopwatch: The newest of new in 'social equality' seems like a rather absurd concept overall. 10:26:26 Now that I've noticed this it bothers me a bit...with the MP calculated as it is and the cap at fifty...everything would hit cap at level 12 / SplCast 12 or level 27 / SplCast 6. without MP benefit for going higher... 10:26:29 Aren't we all lucky that this isn't a very good place to sort that out 10:26:31 and it doesn't mix with game design 10:27:04 |amethyst: oh this is a good chance to get rid of the weird special-case where mermaids try and mesmerise merfolk less often and also merfolk are immune to it anyway 10:27:08 i guess i can do that 10:29:48 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:29:50 Bcadren, you should try comparing the numbers you actually get in crawl with the numbers you are getting from wherever you are getting them that isnt crawl 10:32:01 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: I didn't see if anyone raised this in the the thread, but we do have plenty of female-only monster types but no male-only 10:32:19 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: not counting uniques and pseudo-uniques of course 10:32:31 yeah 10:32:36 there's even a non-male demon lord 10:32:38 what more do you want 10:32:44 Crate...that would take forever. :/ be easier for someone that knows their way around the code to say if the stuff in the wiki is uptodate or not. 10:33:00 well human caps at 49 mp at xl 27 and 27 spc 10:33:02 so 10:33:06 Bcadren: You can use wizmode: & 10:34:18 -!- omnirizon has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:38:06 Aside from the gender-equality-based arguments for mermaid -> merfolk mesmerizer/singer/bard/whatever, shouldn't the gameplay value alone be worth it? It's not at all clear from the name "mermaid" that the monster is a weak siren. 10:38:35 that was basically my reasoning, yeah 10:39:09 <|amethyst> Yes 10:39:32 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 10:39:46 Can you set XP level in Wizmode or just gain them? 10:40:03 Much appreciated, PleasingFungus & |amethyst. 10:40:32 Bcadren: ctrl+L IIRC, should be listed in &? 10:40:36 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm it would be nice for the merfolk/mermaid/siren tiles to emphasise that they're not the same monster type, and to make merfolk less beardy 10:40:37 |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know. 10:40:55 I honestly always assumed that dark blue-green stuff below mer heads was supposed to be their necks 10:40:57 Medar saw a 'x' command to gain a level but not one to set level 10:41:01 zooming in on the tiles, they're beards 10:41:08 but I never realized that before 10:41:15 what a world. 10:41:30 mermaids are pretty much the same as sirens in mythology 10:41:31 <|amethyst> Bcadren: Ctrl-l is five lines up from that 10:41:58 if beards look good they should have beards IMO 10:42:11 mountainfolk 10:42:30 <|amethyst> wheals: well 10:42:35 if you are not cabable of understanding that the tile is just a tile you have bigger problems 10:42:38 they looked like necks to me, so I'm not convinced they actually looked good 10:42:38 <|amethyst> wheals: Sirens were half-bird, not half-fish 10:42:42 the whole race being clones for example 10:42:47 yeah, according to ovid they had wings 10:42:50 even though beards are an example of human sexual dimorphism that certainly isn't the general case for either earth creatures or mythological creatures 10:42:52 in that they lure sailors to the death, i mean 10:43:04 wheals: which folklore? 10:43:12 merfolklore 10:43:21 :rimshot: 10:43:37 <|amethyst> western european mermaids vs ancient greek Sirens 10:43:39 i dunno, sailor folklore and the like 10:43:40 furthermore "drone" is a sex-defining term for formicids! 10:43:41 In early Greek art, Sirens were represented as birds with large women's heads, bird feathers and scaly feet. Later, they were represented as female figures with the legs of birds, with or without wings, playing a variety of musical instruments, especially harps. 10:43:44 The Amazing Singing Harpies 10:43:58 make a harpy unique with a brand 10:44:03 s/br/b/ 10:44:09 yess 10:44:20 wheals: many cultures have merfolklore, and many of them differ from the one you have in mind 10:44:20 Huh. I wasn't exactly right in my offline, but I wasn't far off, because of how slow the stepdown gets past a point (around XL-12/Splcast-12; you basically hit 40 before lair to midlair on any splcaster then any more MP gain is so gradual to be completely negligible) 10:44:36 Madame Sirenia and her band of cyclopes 10:44:37 <|amethyst> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/POL_Warszawa_COA_1.svg 10:44:44 nonethousand: only if we assume a queen-based hive society, though there's no formicid queen yet 10:44:55 coats of arms are great 10:45:18 that shield looks like gong 10:45:25 I was thinking the same thing 10:45:35 Lasty2: hm perhaps 10:45:39 <|amethyst> and that sabre is definitely not a short blade :) 10:46:10 For all who are so incensed by the idea of mermaids not being renamed and remaining expressly gendered, what's the basis of the objection? 10:46:35 "Gender inequality" 10:46:45 "guys this is serious" 10:46:48 fr: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Coat_of_Arms_of_Brandenburg.svg 10:47:00 bloax: you misread 10:47:17 Bloax: it's unhelpful to dismiss the obviously sincere concerns of these players in this way 10:48:10 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:19 it feels kind of silly, in a game made up of this wild mish-mash of historical & modern* mythologies, to defend millenia-old sexist myths by an appeal to 'tradition'. it's not the end of the world one way or the other, it's a small thing, but it's a small negative thing 10:50:24 *d&d 10:51:24 it's not even like keeping mermaids as 'mermaids' helps players intuitively understand what they are; it's *not* intuitively obvious what a mermaid does in the context of crawl, as lasty was saying earlier. 10:51:29 so, I mean... 10:51:43 and god damn it I'm late for work. 10:51:46 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0a1/20140221030202]] 10:51:52 have fun redrawing the graphics then 10:51:53 <|amethyst> me too :) 10:52:51 mermaid certainly helps you figure out what it does, or at very least helps you remember 10:53:26 the little mermaid has a beautiful voice 10:54:27 The Little Mermaid, longing for the prince and an eternal soul, eventually visits the Sea Witch, who sells her a potion that gives her legs in exchange for her tongue (as the Little Mermaid has the most enchanting and beautiful voice in the world). 10:54:30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Mermaid 10:55:02 Bloax: is there any particular reason why you want this to stay as-is? You clearly feel strongly about it, but I don't see an argument in what you're saying. 10:55:09 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:23 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:00 i feel strongly about this because i see no reason for why this needs to be changed 10:57:14 also because i find the notion that fantasy is obligated to abide to very modern movements rather absurd 10:59:07 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:59:31 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:46 strong case of positive racist bullying here in my opinion 11:05:51 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:10:12 -!- raskol_ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:11:31 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:53 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 11:16:56 -!- Basil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:21:51 -!- Foamed has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:24:45 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:31:40 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:13 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:35:16 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:35:19 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:23 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:32 -!- Fuzzwah_ is now known as Fuzzwah 11:37:59 -!- ZRN has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:38:27 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38:37 -!- rast- is now known as rast 11:41:30 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 11:46:03 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:52:59 Any chance of Salamander Hide Armour stepping down from unrand to a base type like Troll Hide...since they come out of lava now? 11:53:20 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:12 -!- Quashie has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:29 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:00:13 -!- maxwin has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:01:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:58 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:06 Bloax: I find the notion that fantasy is obligated to abide to very old male primacy rather absurd 12:14:17 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:25 Well too bad old mythology isn't up to modern standards! 12:15:54 Well too bad only old mythology is acceptable to you! 12:16:14 These aren't arguments, these are just expressions of preference 12:16:38 this goes both ways 12:16:47 except correcting it takes more effort than not doing anything 12:17:11 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:31 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:54 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:31 Not true. I have a clear and not purely preferential gameplay reason for this change. Additionally, the non-gameplay issue isn't purely preferential. It's part of the unequivocally beneficial idea that half of humanity shouldn't be discriminated against purely because it makes some people feel better. 12:19:56 what's the reason for randomly giving merfolk the ability to mesmerize and consequently remove mermaids 12:20:18 Bloax, that was a dumb proposal that was improved by subsequent discussion 12:20:43 The decent proposal version is "merfolk stay as is, mermaids are renamed to a profession of merfolk" 12:21:50 probably something like "merfolk mesmerizer" or "merfolk entrancer" 12:22:20 entrancer is just about as describing as 'mermaid' 12:22:29 except it sounds worse while doing it 12:22:34 that's bad since mermaids are much much weaker than other professional merfolk 12:23:03 Physically weaker, but more dangerous. 12:23:17 but men and women aren't equally strong, what is this bullshit 12:23:18 Is there an unwritten rule that professionals must not be weaker? 12:23:25 how discriminating 12:23:35 I have trouble understanding how them being called mermaids is related to discriminating against half of humanity. 12:23:45 yokelz: Oh man! We'd better assign each monster a gender, and then make sure the female versions are weaker. 12:23:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:23:56 what is flavour 12:24:07 Lasty2: fine by me 12:24:20 what are non-human societies 12:24:43 yokelz: Reducto ad absurdum works badly when people are willing to openly embrace absurd viewpoints. 12:24:55 Medar: It implies that only women can sing/entrance/be desired. 12:25:10 It does? How the hell? 12:25:20 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-3129-g9730105 (34) 12:25:20 here come the weird expressions 12:25:25 -!- xnavy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:28 Medar: you didn't know jory is a girl???? 12:25:38 or is this 'ad hominem' now 12:26:23 It's weird how defensive and troll-like people get when you imply that anything about how male dominance is challenged. 12:26:35 wait 12:26:40 Medar: Which gender of monsters can sing/entrance/force you to desire them? 12:26:43 now you're calling us sexists 12:26:53 Am I? 12:27:04 Lasty2: but I'm a female 12:27:08 The me it implies that in the past most seamen were (heterosexual) men. 12:27:13 The=To 12:27:22 yokelz: No woman has ever held an anti-woman view, so I hereby change all my beliefs. 12:27:27 nothing about mermaid mechanics or flavour mentions anything about being desired, i don't know where you are getting this idea from? 12:27:43 I mean the song is haunting and works on vine stalkers 12:27:44 btw, according to google it's international women's day 12:27:58 fun times 12:28:06 And ghouls and whatnot 12:28:29 Medar: maybe the mermaids are "extra meaty" so it explains the ghouls 12:28:41 MarvinPA: yes, though it's clear from the discussion of it that at least some people interpret it that way, so I added it to my list of possible interpretations. 12:28:54 maybe they stink like rotten fish too 12:29:31 MarvinPA: we can discard it from the list and the point is still there: there's something that only certain explicitly-female monsters can do. 12:29:47 MarvinPA: but there's no actual reason to think that it should be a gendered activity 12:29:51 why don't we have any plus sized female uniques, yet several males are 12:30:04 talk about thin privilege 12:31:52 also how is it discriminating that mermaids get the ability to mesmerize things 12:31:54 Jory (04V) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 180 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 40, 1505(vampiric) | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3954 | Sp: crystal spear (3d37), mesmerise, blink close, 04esc:vampiric draining | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 12:31:54 %??jory 12:31:57 mermen don't get that 12:31:59 so female 12:32:05 that's discriminating 12:32:13 alefury: fair point 12:32:15 and so damn sexy too, that jory 12:32:18 Bloax: Well that's the point he is making exactly. 12:32:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:55 yes i feel discriminated that mermen that have nothing in common with me can't use their amazing merman voice to charm things 12:33:06 unlike those damn sexy mermaids 12:33:40 mermen are also surprisingly unattractive compared to said mermaids 12:33:48 alefury: Why isn't he described as sexy (or beautiful or comely, or whatever)? If he had been made female, odds are good he would have been. 12:34:08 Well, the descriptions were fixed, weren't they? 12:34:14 Medar: yes 12:34:17 Lasty2: sure, whatever 12:34:19 Medar: many of them 12:34:28 Lasty2: what was the problem with being them described good-looking? 12:34:29 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/w.gif 12:34:39 and never mind my grammar 12:35:05 i cant take people seriously who take this gender stuff too seriously. let's all be excellent towards everyone irl and things will be fine. 12:35:28 alefury: Wow. 12:35:47 it doesn't help that a lot of these people who take gender stuff too seriously are batshit insane about it and believe gender is purely determined by socialization 12:35:59 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:36:05 alefury: everything will be fine as long as no one brings up the fact that people aren't actually excellent to each other, particularly about gender. 12:36:11 -!- nixor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:12 have you ever noticed how men and women are physically different 12:36:16 alefury: strawman much? 12:36:21 yeah I know, sorry 12:36:46 -!- Kalir has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:51 I'm just explaining why I cant have a productive discussion about this 12:37:06 Bloax: no I once took a woman home with me from a bar and found out he was actually a guy the "hard" way 12:37:14 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:37:33 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:33 yokelz: I bet that threatened your masculinity badly. Did you have to hurt that person before you could feel good again? 12:37:34 a diminishing minority 12:37:40 if you can't be part of a productive discussion about this then don't be part of the discussion, this applies to multiple people in here, thanks 12:38:05 k :) 12:38:13 thanks 12:38:15 MarvinPA: if I'm being unproductive, let me know and I'll stop. 12:38:17 Any chance of Salamander Hide Armour stepping down from unrand to a base type like Troll Hide...since they come out of lava now? ...specifically thinking Salamander Hide base type is an rF+ animal hide. Salamander Armour base type as rF++ rC- base 6; Encumberance 4. (similar to Fire Dragon armour, but light enough for Ozo's) [current artifact is +3 Leather armour rF++, +Berserk] 12:38:43 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:05 -!- PolkaDot has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:39:19 Lasty2: what masculinity? I'm a lesbian trapped inside a fat mans body 12:39:38 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:36 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Quit: BirdoPrey] 12:42:58 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3130-g974d52d: Let mesmerisation work on player Merfolk 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=974d52dcfbf6 12:42:58 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3131-g8428e3c: Clean up a useless check in mesmerisation code 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8428e3c2da6d 12:42:58 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-3132-gfd0d9f0: Edit faun and yaktaur descriptions 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd0d9f0aef3f 12:43:55 d... did mf really have mesm immunity 12:44:07 yes 12:44:16 merfolk are so ridiculous 12:44:31 I don't think crawl will be anyone's first time hearing about mermaids. So if for some reason they are not cabable enough to figure out that they are not meant to be blueprints for gender roles, then the damage has been already done. 12:45:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:45:53 -!- NekoRex has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:06 hmm did the md tile have a beard by any chance 12:46:40 And I'd be more worried that those people will also learn that killing everything that moves is a good way of life. 12:46:53 simmarine: dwarves ALWAYS have beards 12:46:53 -!- Kellhus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:56 even the females 12:46:58 duh 12:47:03 SamB: yes i realized that when i sent that out 12:47:06 so do merfolk! 12:47:13 though im not sure if thats a "tolkeinism" thing or what 12:47:14 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:47:28 tolkien, i knew tha tlooked wrong 12:47:29 Yeah, if I could make my own roguelike, tbh it wouldn't have the gore/death; that bothers me a lot more, to the extent it bothers me anyhow 12:47:43 "You come into this dungeon, slay every creature you happen across, and you call *me* the monster?" 12:49:06 Zannick: http://i.imgur.com/HtY219c.jpg oddly relevant isn't it 12:49:10 Who do you think you are, War? 12:49:20 Bloax: what 12:49:30 gammafunk: one of my favorite things about nethack 12:49:40 Yes, but War does not preserve its enemies. 12:50:01 He devours them whole and occasionally chokes on their corpses. 12:50:26 because nethack is funny like that 12:50:33 -!- kryft has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:45 -!- ldf has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:14 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:26 -!- gammafunk has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:52:45 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 12:53:07 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:52 simmarine: supposedly there is still code to give hill dwarves beards in tiles 12:55:06 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:17 are beards separated from the character tiles...? 12:56:13 i think they are drawn as a separate layer like wielded weapons, not sure though 12:56:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:09 they are 12:59:03 Bloax: nice addition to my varg-folder 12:59:43 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/burzday.gif everybody cheer up 13:00:50 now I have to listen filosofem again 13:07:23 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:11:35 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:15:01 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 13:15:58 simmarine: I brought the same up earlier. Beards are not generally a distnictly masculine trait in either real-world or fantasy creatures 13:16:15 -!- soundlust|2 is now known as soundlust 13:17:31 oh I'm 20 minutes late 13:18:39 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:06 beards not a masculine trait 13:24:14 I must be living in a different world 13:27:00 "generally" 13:27:12 -!- broilor has joined ##crawl-dev 13:33:00 eastern europe, dwarves 13:35:37 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:17 -!- nonethousand is now known as n1000 13:37:25 -!- n1000 is now known as nonethousand 13:37:47 -!- nonethousand is now known as n1000 13:38:06 -!- n1000 is now known as nonethousand 13:38:23 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:38:25 -!- rast- is now known as rast 13:40:53 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:03 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:04 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:10 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:49:13 -!- ldf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:50:04 gammafunk: You fixed this right? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=8244 13:51:07 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:21 -!- ldf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:32 "Eastern" "Dwarves" http://i.imgur.com/WpjwRCS.jpg ho hum 13:52:25 %git HEAD^{/pane} 13:52:26 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-2745-g309a2e6: Give player shadow M_NO_EXP_GAIN. 10(2 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=309a2e6cd233 13:53:05 Medar: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=6e425e4dfe8df04684e8b2232432d05d52cbd443 13:54:35 Medar: After looking that commit and the bug over, I do not believe 6e425e fixes 8244. 13:54:59 -!- Laraso has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:12 Hmm, ok. 13:55:37 -!- nonethousand has left ##crawl-dev 14:01:41 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:01:57 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:32 -!- kekekela has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:05:51 Medar: yeah, that's fixed 14:06:37 Medar: although the reason why that previous commit is problematic webtiles is still unclear 14:06:49 it doesn't happen in tiles or ascii 14:06:50 Ok. 14:07:17 The monster list is certainly a bit off. Trying to stop it from displaying out of LOS stuff now. 14:07:50 I guess it's a moot point, but I'd like to know why, since after looking over differences between before the invis fix and after,I can't see anything that causes a problem 14:09:01 Medar: monster list is a bit off even before the invis fix related issue? 14:09:07 Yes. 14:09:11 ok 14:09:16 There's also 14:09:19 ??gammafunk[8 14:09:19 gammafunk[8/9]: todo: fix black mark crash if no one else does 14:09:21 nope 14:09:24 ??gammafunk[9 14:09:25 gammafunk[9/9]: todo: bug, targetter rays continue to show in tiles/webtiles when obscured by clouds. 14:09:35 I have reported that IIRC 14:09:46 ah, do you have a bug number? 14:09:52 Let's see. 14:09:57 I can probably track that down pretty easilly 14:10:07 the source of the bug, I mean 14:10:18 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6833 14:10:35 ok, thanks; I'll resolve that one when I fix it 14:10:50 Hooray 14:12:16 -!- nonethousand has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:33 oh, reminds me, there's a truly bizzare issue with the invis indicators 14:12:41 Not sure if I can fix this but 14:14:27 !learn add gammafunk bug: if you equip artefact jewelry that grants sinv and an evocable ability, when you take it off with an invis enemy in los and it's your only sinv source, monster gets no invis indicator 14:14:28 gammafunk[10/10]: bug: if you equip artefact jewelry that grants sinv and an evocable ability, when you take it off with an invis enemy in los and it's your only sinv source, monster gets no invis indicator 14:15:19 oddly enough, if i set a breakpoint in gdb that stops e.g. when the indicator is being properly set (which it is) and continue, the indicator gets properly created 14:15:33 but not if I run the game normally :( 14:15:47 erm, that doesn't sound good 14:16:25 and it's only for arte jewels that have an evocable ability and grant my sinv; arte armour/weapons that have the same setup don't cause a bug 14:16:28 -!- TeshiAlair1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:40 and anything that doesn't grant an evocable ability doesn't cause the bug 14:16:57 I don't think it's somehow tied to the ability, but somehow that is a trigger for it 14:17:17 some weird race condition or something 14:17:40 does it matter whether the sinv is from the base type or not? 14:18:08 I haven't tested arte rings of see invisibility 14:18:31 but I tried hasting myself, thinking the "jewelry only" part was because of how many aut the action takes 14:18:48 and still weapon switches don't trigger the bug (e.g.arte weapons that grant sinv + evocable ability) 14:19:26 actually, if anyone can check that they can reproduce themselves on local tiles, that'd be appreciated 14:19:30 don't even know if it happens in webtiles 14:19:36 (which I should also check) 14:21:00 oh, and I should check again since after that fix to the invis fix 14:21:01 -!- ciphuk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:24:23 That sounds to me like a redraw problem 14:24:40 (Like the indicator is set, but the screen isn't redrawn at that point) 14:25:21 Keanan: yeah, generally speaking, but the draw looks ok otherwise 14:25:40 maybe more that the draw at that cell isn't happening right 14:25:42 Keanan: I'm thinking it's a redraw issue too 14:25:54 Well, I'm thinking that it draws before the status changes. 14:26:32 Keanan: but the relevant monster properties are getting set, and the indicator flags for the cell are getting made 14:26:52 I know this since when I run it with gdb and set a breakpoint,I see the changes 14:27:04 and furthermore when I continue in gdb, the indicator shows up properly :( 14:27:20 Yes, but the breakpoit would force a redraw after you continue. 14:27:34 how would it force a redraw? 14:27:52 -!- CampinSam has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 14:28:15 Generally because when you hit a breakpoint the computer assumes that when you continue the screen needs to redraw. 14:28:25 (Because you paused execution) 14:28:49 (And either changed focus, or removed and replaced the screen) 14:28:58 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:29:03 In the usual case at least. 14:29:05 well you're talking something low-level in the graphics code 14:29:15 In this case it might also be because of tile_update_rate which forces redraw every second by default. 14:29:20 I'm talking redraw here in the sense of tile's higher level cell draw loop 14:29:52 Could try setting that to something really high and try gdb again. 14:30:02 ...Salamanders drop Giant Gecko corpses?...I'm guessing that's just a sign that they don't have unique corpses yet? 14:30:03 Or really low and try non-gdb again, but it can't be set lower than 50. 14:30:04 hrm, and then webtiles shouldn't have an issue, yes? 14:30:11 I'm checking webtiles now 14:30:20 Sure, webtiles is different. 14:34:54 yes, not occurring in webtiles 14:37:03 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)] 14:38:19 Try getting into a situation where the indicator should show, hide the window, then show it again. 14:38:43 (In console) 14:39:55 sorry, what do you mean by in console? 14:40:01 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:40:07 Err, whatever you were working in wherein it wasn't working :) 14:40:09 -!- Aryth1 has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:40:49 Have you tried turning it off and on again? 14:41:05 well, it's a tiles-only problem, so you're saying create said non-working situation and just try switching to a different window or minimizing, and then switch back? 14:41:15 Yes. 14:41:26 -!- jmbto has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:59 yes, it doesn't render the invis indicator post-switch 14:42:50 03Medar02 07* 0.14-a0-3133-gc8dfecf: Fix detected monsters showing up in WebTiles monster list. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c8dfecf3c7ec 14:42:52 Ok, then that's not a low level redraw problem. 14:42:52 It's a high-level redraw problem. 14:42:52 (i.e. that's how crawl thinks it *should* display) 14:42:57 That took way longer than it should have. 14:43:16 right, it was my assumption that the error was at that level, but it's good to realize it might not have been I guess :p 14:43:31 at least it's not a webtiles problems, so few complains will arise 14:43:59 Please, Webtiles users are used to everything being broken. 14:44:23 Are you implying that our player base tends to complain? 14:45:10 No. Maybe they do, but they never file bug reports :P 14:45:38 Any reason you didn't close that monster list bug? 14:45:53 nope, just got sidetracked by the mystery bug 14:45:57 feel free to if you have it open 14:46:01 Sure. 14:46:04 thanks 14:46:53 -!- Xagon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:55 scrolls of acquirement always gift shields if wielding 2-handed melee weapon by syadasti 14:48:21 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:48:40 Wonder if that's an actual bug or just RNG being RNG. 14:49:54 i'm pretty certain it belongs with "poisoned for 8 pages" 14:50:28 -!- roctavian has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:46 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:54 yeah certainly not the case when I test with local tiles 14:51:01 first armour gift: hat of the alchemist 14:51:10 while wielding exec axe 14:51:23 if (wizmode) give_awesome_stuff(); 14:51:29 er not gift, but ?acquire 14:52:06 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 14:52:46 yeah, setting my shields to 15 made me get two shields before I got a hat 14:53:02 but no always shields behavior 14:53:04 acquirement doesn't look at what you have equipped or carried any more, it hasn't done for most things for ages and i think the blowgun thing recently was the last case of it 14:53:30 also armour acq doesn't look at shield skill 14:53:44 does it look at armour skill? 14:53:50 well, it does to determine the size it seems 14:53:54 only for the chance of gifting CPA iirc 14:54:21 I guess the two shield gifts after setting shields 15 were just luck then, but yeah in any case clearly not a bug 14:54:33 two is not a very large sample size 14:54:40 hehe 14:54:44 Clustering illusion, i just tested it to be sure. 14:54:48 elliptic: it does use shield skill to determine shield size after it's decided to give you a shield, it looks like 14:54:49 I did a t-test; it was statistically significant 14:55:14 MarvinPA: okay yeah, armour acq shouldn't be looking at anything to determine which slot to fill though 14:55:19 but yeah not to decide whether or not to give you a shield in the first place 14:55:46 MarvinPA: I like how the comment there talks about giant races... 14:56:15 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:56:17 Maybe actually basing the probability on race rather than skill would make more sense. 14:56:21 Or both. 14:56:58 it does, slightly? i think 14:57:20 wait, this code is all wrong 14:57:25 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:57:33 1learn crawl 14:57:41 !source _pick_wearable_armour 14:57:41 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc;hb=HEAD#l53 14:57:47 the checks are different depending on species at least? except dracs have the same checks as ogres and trolls and nagas? i don't even know 14:57:55 this requires effort to decipher 14:58:03 There is you.species test inside the spriggan case 14:58:20 So I thought that code was for every raace 14:58:21 Medar: look at cases 14:58:25 sp/og/tr 14:58:28 Oh, right. 14:58:48 It's "Not regular" and "Regular" divisions 14:58:50 I'm just dumb. 14:58:59 Move along, nothing to see here. 14:59:26 Case fallthroughs are easy to misread :) 14:59:27 -!- BobBarker has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:28 These aren't the species you're looking for... 14:59:40 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:02:58 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:08:01 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:08 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:38 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:36 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:04 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:06 -!- Piginabag has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:21:16 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:38 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:18 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 15:33:23 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:53 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:14 tile-making question: what should a vinestalker look like? i don't know where to start 15:36:55 It's a humanoid covered in parasitic vines, right? 15:37:14 So, a vaguely-humanoid mass of vines is probably approximately right 15:37:35 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:20 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:20 http://maxcdn.thedesigninspiration.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Human-plant-l.jpg 15:38:24 -!- rast- is now known as rast 15:38:45 oh they don't have a manual entry yet i guess 15:39:16 !tell Basil you should add vine stalkers to the wiki manual! 15:39:16 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let basil know. 15:39:27 or someone else who knows what vine stalkers do 15:39:32 Or perhpas more reasonably: http://www.freewebs.com/raxeswar/plant%20zombie.bmp 15:39:52 also good "even the djinn" in the lava orc manual entry 15:39:57 -!- reaverb has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:11 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:40:33 Do vine stalkers have genders 15:40:42 or beards 15:41:09 uh 15:41:10 Amnesiac2 the Nimble (L9 SpFE), worshipper of Xom, incinerated by you on D:5, with 3335 points after 6632 turns and 0:33:56. 15:41:15 Grunt: !!! 15:41:36 -!- BobBarker has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:42:23 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:42:29 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:16 goodxom? 15:43:43 badxom? 15:44:31 -!- bonghitz_ has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:44:40 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/wtfplant2.png 15:44:57 http://i.imgur.com/Mpdmfpg.png 15:45:20 you know that one big vault with all the joke shops like the "legendary smithy" with -enchanted items? 15:45:25 the slave one had a haste wand 15:45:31 is that intentional 15:50:35 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:53:25 bloax: in wtfplant2, what is the blueness on the neck? 15:53:35 its mouth 15:53:53 except it's a bit too colorful for its own good 15:53:55 okay, so it's got a bulbous head with a glowy neckmouth thing? or a large head? 15:54:07 i don't think so 15:54:29 it just has a big mouth for serious biting action 15:54:37 cool 15:54:54 and the weird head is because i fail at microjaws 15:55:31 there's really quite little you can do with the player tile, isn't there 15:56:42 i wanted to make better player body tiles but was daunted by the amount of work necessary 15:57:07 i imagine doing it someday, but... it's really ambitious 15:57:29 partly it's just the ridiculous number of robes we've got 15:57:33 there are like 20 15:57:44 i'm still sitting on a couple dozen spell tiles, watching the to-do number skyrocket every day 15:57:55 I found myself thinking one day that there could be more variance in the regular armours 15:58:14 I mean the tiles! 15:58:21 ring mails and leather armours 15:58:24 yeah 15:58:47 ontoclasm: generally we need chemotherapy 15:59:04 there are too many UGH things of one kind and only one kind of thing of another 15:59:40 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:00:17 also have you guys seen https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/ringmail_dwarf2.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/ringmail_dwarf.png (_orc/2 too) 16:02:57 thankfully Medar assigned that ray bug to me, since I closed the tag that had it open :p 16:03:55 Potion of beneficial mutation is marked as useless_item for Vampire even when they are Alive by kurzedmetal 16:03:58 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 16:04:21 mark as kinda_useless_item 16:05:25 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:21 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:27 Bloax: yeah, i saw those, i just haven't gotten around to putting them in 16:09:02 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:08 gammafunk: you assigned it yourself :p 16:10:12 -!- Stendhal is now known as Zilis 16:10:50 ... 16:11:04 ...thank goodness I assigned it to myself, then... 16:11:06 :) 16:11:17 (I just fixed it, at least) 16:14:31 -!- exant has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:15:37 Sweet 16:20:52 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-3134-g2c86dbf: Don't draw targeting rays in Tiles if they are out of LOS (#6833). 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c86dbfa7bdb 16:21:30 <|amethyst> Vine stalker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swamp_Thing_and_Len_Wein.jpg 16:21:48 One of those bugs where, it's just a one line fix...but now you get to try to figure out where that one line goes... 16:21:53 hehe 16:21:58 I remember that movie 16:22:39 <|amethyst> Never saw any of the films, but the USA series from the early 90s 16:22:45 <|amethyst> Was never much of a comics fan 16:22:51 The movie was not very good, as I recall 16:22:58 <|amethyst> neither was the TV show :) 16:23:00 there are definitely good swamp thing comics 16:23:01 I'm thinking of the one in the 80s 16:23:02 <|amethyst> (other than Sandman, but that's comple) 16:23:12 <|amethyst> s/comple/completely different/ 16:23:25 <|amethyst> gammafunk: Wes Craven? 16:23:51 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:57 !seen bh 16:23:58 I last saw bh at Fri Mar 7 02:22:20 2014 UTC (20h 1m 37s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Page closed'. 16:24:02 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I think the TV series had the same actor 16:24:03 oh, that bug was nearly a year old 16:25:09 !tell bh I got Linley's street address! This means that the book has to be finished at all costs, even though shipping one copy to Oz will probably make my wife file for divorce. 16:25:09 dpeg: OK, I'll let bh know. 16:25:16 probably much older than that 16:25:28 dpeg: the yasd book? 16:25:32 yes! 16:25:48 I think my deal 4 legendary destruction death was removed :( 16:25:49 gammafunk: I am collecting addresses of ex-devs (some of them), to send them a copy 16:26:16 <|amethyst> FR: new spells Burning Eyes, Eye of Desolation, Worms of Agony, Frozen Teeth, Toxic Sun, ... 16:26:17 (not wanting to turn any active devs into ex-devs, in hope of a free book :) 16:26:27 if i quit do i get a copy? ohhh 16:26:30 It's a great idea though 16:26:33 |amethyst: where do you get these from? 16:26:38 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 16:26:47 Medar: no, you're not old enough :) You get a pdf if you want to! 16:27:00 <|amethyst> dpeg: Linley's shmup Overgod 16:27:09 <|amethyst> dpeg: which I played before I even knew about Crawl 16:27:10 |amethyst: <3 <3 <3 16:27:28 haha, that title, "Overgod" 16:27:31 He wrote to me that Angry Moth may never be finished. 16:27:37 <|amethyst> dpeg: in fact, it wasn't until I had been playing Crawl for months that I noticed Overgod was by the same guy :) 16:27:39 shmups, need more shmups 16:27:46 <|amethyst> https://www.allegro.cc/depot/Overgod/ 16:28:45 "Pretty low system requirements (300MHz is plenty...)" 16:28:49 |amethyst: were you around when we idle-talked about the Hell-Spider as end boss monster? 16:29:14 obvious spell fr: summon angry moth 16:29:47 <|amethyst> dpeg: yeah 16:29:58 <|amethyst> dpeg: Would still like to come back to that :) 16:30:02 an attempt at another nod to Linley 16:30:25 yes, me too... I think a randomly made end, self-adapting end boss has lots of potential 16:30:34 <|amethyst> gammafunk: as you get higher and higher scores, your rank goes Slave -> Doubeter -> Unbeliever -> ... -> Deicide 16:30:51 <|amethyst> gammafunk: but then if it goes even higher, -> DEMIGOD -> GODLING -> ... -> SUPREME BEING 16:30:53 * dpeg loves Linley's style 16:31:00 Sounds like real potential for some titles in crawl 16:31:06 <|amethyst> s/Doubet/Doubt/ 16:31:25 <|amethyst> "Heresiarch" would be good somewhere 16:31:38 -!- edh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:31:39 <|amethyst> maybe a Orcish Heresiarch who worships someone other than Beogh 16:34:25 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:47 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:50 !seen sgrunt 16:34:50 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen sgrunt. 16:34:54 !seen Grunt 16:34:55 I last saw Grunt at Fri Mar 7 20:25:19 2014 UTC (2h 9m 35s ago) saying 'GONNNNG!' on ##crawl. 16:40:44 -!- aaa_ is now known as Guest96899 16:40:59 dpeg: I'm at work; home in 2.5 hours or so. 16:41:05 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 16:42:12 Grunt: it's alright. Just wanted to thank for keeping track of the wrath feedback. Wanted to point you towards it, but then your commit rolled in. 16:42:44 dpeg: I did that because I experienced it first hand! 16:42:46 !lg . 16:42:46 1329. SGrunt the Impregnable (L20 MiGl of The Shining One), mangled by a daeva (a +2,+1 blessed falchion of holy wrath) on Abyss:1 on 2014-03-07 03:14:48, with 328971 points after 66867 turns and 2:58:32. 16:43:15 !lm . god.abandon 16:43:16 3. [2014-03-07 03:03:45] SGrunt the Impregnable (L20 MiGl) abandoned Okawaru on turn 64147. (Temple) 16:43:25 * Grunt goes back to work, 16:45:07 Grunt: a pretty good motivation for any commit :) 16:45:12 !lg tzer0 16:45:13 639. TZer0 the Axe Maniac (L27 LOBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-03-07 22:03:56, with 1769557 points after 68232 turns and 5:50:08. 16:45:43 !lg tzer0 -tv 16:45:44 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:46:49 is it possible to run the replay of an entire game? 16:47:32 :$ should do that i think, but probably you should put it on its own channel if you do that 16:47:40 <|amethyst> -tv:T0:>> 16:47:41 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:47:43 (and you might want to speed it up) 16:47:51 what |amethyst said is probably more correct 16:48:09 it usually is :) 16:48:13 <|amethyst> hm 16:48:18 <|amethyst> actually, not sure 16:48:21 !lg tzer0 -tv:t0:>> 16:48:22 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:48:28 <|amethyst> the docs say "Does nothing when using !lg" 16:48:44 uhhh 16:48:49 <|amethyst> I guess that didn't work :) 16:48:52 ttyrec appears corrupted 16:49:13 <|amethyst> I guess -tv:>$ is probably good 16:49:27 !lg tzer0 -tv:>$ 16:49:28 <|amethyst> or actually, maybe you don't even need that, since !lg ends at end-of-game normally doesn't it? 16:49:28 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:49:45 hmm 16:49:46 <|amethyst> TZer0: with :t0 too I meant, sorry 16:50:05 !lg tzer0 -tv:t0>> 16:50:05 Bad seek argument for seek-back: t0>> (T or number expected) 16:50:11 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:50:13 !lg tzer0 -tv:t0:>> 16:50:14 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:50:23 <|amethyst> !lg tzero -tv:T0:>$:channel=tvzero 16:50:24 uhh 16:50:25 No games for tzero. 16:50:28 okay 16:50:36 <|amethyst> !lg tzer0 -tv:T0:>$:channel=tvzero 16:50:37 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for tvzero (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:50:38 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50:43 Out of curiosity, why do people use FooTV instead of playing back the ttyrec? (I've never understood the appeal) 16:51:02 again.. just the ending 16:51:15 Keanan: that way I can show someone else? 16:51:26 <|amethyst> hm 16:51:28 <|amethyst> oh, doh 16:51:32 <|amethyst> !lg tzer0 -tv:T0:>$:channel=tvzero:cancel 16:51:33 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 cancel requested for tvzero (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:51:39 <|amethyst> !lg tzer0 -tv:$:channel=tvzero 16:51:40 639. TZer0, XL27 LOBe, T:68232 requested for tvzero (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:51:51 <|amethyst> err 16:51:58 <|amethyst> okay, apparently I have no clue 16:52:00 err+ 16:52:02 hmm 16:52:05 Ah, so you like send them a link or something? 16:52:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:12 |amethyst: yes, I couldn't get that feature to work well either 16:52:19 Keanan: yeah. 16:52:24 ??tragedy[/Implojin 16:52:24 I don't have a page labeled tragedy/Implojin in my learndb. 16:52:29 ?/implojin 16:52:30 Matching entries (1): tragedy[5]: !lg implojin mifi place=tomb:2 -tv:$ 16:52:33 (Which I suppse is easier than sending them a link to the ttyrec and telling them to download whatever playback software is required for their platform) 16:52:33 ??tragedy[5 16:52:34 tragedy[5/6]: !lg implojin mifi place=tomb:2 -tv:$ 16:52:42 I had to use a specific turncount 16:53:34 <|amethyst> Keanan: also, if they saved there will be multiple ttyrecs 16:54:01 <|amethyst> Keanan: FooTV (at least in theory; there are some bugs) knows how to concatenate those 16:54:09 Ah, fair enough. 16:54:15 <|amethyst> also, how to look for particular turn numbers etc 16:54:29 -!- Chris7 has quit [] 16:54:44 !lg implojin mifi place=tomb:2 -tv:$ 16:54:44 1. Implojin, XL27 MiFi, T:78118 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:54:47 hrm 16:54:58 weird, still at that turn 16:55:02 "close enough" 16:55:09 Well, those are all pretty decent reasons I guess. 16:55:27 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I think turn number specs interact poorly with multiple ttyrecs 16:55:39 ah, ok 16:55:47 !lg implojin mifi place=tomb:2 -tv:$:cancel 16:55:48 1. Implojin, XL27 MiFi, T:78118 cancel requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:56:07 -!- Guest96899 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:56:28 !hs * 16:56:28 3006833. Sapher the Genius of the Arcane (L26 NaWz of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2012-10-05 09:05:14, with 65369553 points after 21895 turns and 15:06:14. 16:56:48 To watch that, I just downloaded all the ttyrec and concatenated a bunch to get several larger files 16:56:51 and use ipbt 16:57:09 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:57:24 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:46 <|amethyst> if only ipbt supported utf-8 recordings :( 16:57:53 Try jettyplay 16:58:15 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:26 oh, loading ttyrecs in the background? sign me up 16:58:29 It seems to do a pretty damn good job even with UTF-8 recordings. 16:59:06 <|amethyst> Keanan: but it's GUI isn't it? 16:59:36 <|amethyst> Or can it use a terminal? 16:59:53 Well, lightweight gui, it's a java.jar (So will run on anything that has java on it.) It runs in it's own window. 17:00:10 afaik it doesn't run in a terminal. 17:00:26 (It wouldn't make much sense for it to do so) 17:00:49 -!- Stigandr has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:53 <|amethyst> Yeah, cross-platform that wouldn't make sense 17:01:09 It does use the locally installed fonts though. 17:01:18 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:02:36 Keanan: pretty cool 17:02:57 Yeah, it exports video and you can control the playback speed (or even playback in reverse) 17:03:00 Yeah this works nicely, will be using this from now on 17:03:25 hrm, ipbt had that "reduce frames with no change" feature 17:03:44 ah, and so doesthis 17:04:21 well, it skips it outright in jetty; also maybe I'm just thinking of logarithmic playback 17:04:27 in any case this works 17:04:48 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:08 -!- bmfx_ is now known as bmfx 17:14:15 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:16:15 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:20:37 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-3134-g2c86dbf (34) 17:22:01 -!- odiv has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:08 -!- animegrampa has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:23:13 -!- gnum has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:30 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:23:58 -!- johlstei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:33 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:21 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:33 spectating 78291 on cszo webtiles and just got a javascript error, heh 17:28:43 -!- codrus has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:30:48 that's a first... 17:31:05 do you have the error message? 17:31:19 unfortunately no 17:31:29 I think it might be just my browser choking up 17:31:31 never mind 17:32:13 hoping it happens again 17:35:06 -!- link_1081 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:11 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:13 -!- link_108 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:55 -!- link_1081 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:16 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:31 -!- rast- is now known as rast 17:41:42 -!- gnum has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:22 -!- Stigandr has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:50:18 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:54:23 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:57:23 -!- johlstei has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:47 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:01:10 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:02:40 -!- andrewhl has quit [Quit: andrewhl] 18:02:54 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:05:31 !tell Napkin telnet/ssh nach crawl.develz.org scheint immer noch nicht moeglich zu sein. Bin gezwungen, auf CSZO auszuweichen!! :) 18:05:32 dpeg: OK, I'll let napkin know. 18:06:43 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 18:07:19 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Excess Flood] 18:09:19 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:42 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:14:10 Undo (L16 DrCj) ERROR: range check error (27010 / 2000) (Elf:3) 18:14:16 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 18:14:57 !seen Keskitalo 18:14:57 I last saw Keskitalo at Wed Mar 5 20:20:43 2014 UTC (2d 3h 54m 14s ago) parting ##crawl, saying 'chanpart'. 18:15:39 -!- Foamed_ has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 18:15:43 -!- popsofctown has quit [] 18:17:13 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:51 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:24:21 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:02 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:17 -!- gnum has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:37 -!- andrewhl has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:23 -!- link_108 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:36 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:47 -!- cr0ne_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:30:54 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:25 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424]] 18:31:44 -!- link_108 has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:48 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 18:33:58 -!- Kasofa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:29 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:35 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:39 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:36:22 -!- demiskeleton has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:39:25 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:14 -!- debo has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:27 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:52:35 !function _valid_invisible_spot 18:52:36 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/show.cc;hb=HEAD#l327 18:53:41 !tell Grunt I'm thinking of starting a personal rule where, every time I change a function that has no documentation comments at the function declaration, I'll create these comments in the style of _valid_invisible_spot 18:53:42 gammafunk: OK, I'll let grunt know. 18:54:19 !tell Grunt But if you have other ideas for improving the function documentation (which is in a very bad state I'm sure you'll agree), would be happy to hear it 18:54:19 gammafunk: OK, I'll let grunt know. 18:54:43 todays offenders: 18:54:45 string item_prefix(const item_def &item, bool temp = true); 18:55:02 bool is_useless_item(const item_def &item, bool temp = false); 18:55:41 ...and what does temp do? all but one calls to is_useless_item use the default vault of temp...and all but one calls to item_prefix use the default value of temp 18:56:02 (and item_prefix calls is_useless_item) 19:01:40 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:26 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:32 ah, something I wanted to mention some times already: 19:03:24 there seems to be a webtiles player (or at least spectator) who is known for pedophile comments -- how hard will it be to have some kind of ignoring option? 19:03:35 (folks on SA are quite engaged about this) 19:03:59 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:26 you mean he implies or claims that others are pedophiles, or makes comments like a pedophile would make? 19:04:39 the latter 19:04:40 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:05:06 has anyone tried calling the cops? 19:06:02 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3585776&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=117 19:06:30 it starts with a post by Arrhythmia (the player is LoliLover) 19:07:04 just ban him? 19:07:21 given like, a chatlog 19:07:24 sure, but we need some form to suppress certain spectators anyway 19:07:24 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:07:33 yeah, don't have to be mutually exclusive 19:08:02 SamB: why would you call cops 19:08:42 surely impersonating a pedophile is at least a felony, right? 19:08:49 not in my country 19:08:51 SamB: he seems to be more about how pedophiles are misunderstood (or misinterpreted) rather than making actually harassing... but I would be happy not to know during my crawling 19:09:02 I can't see the logs though 19:09:03 also glad you read the SA thread, you get read all my bad posts 19:09:07 screw grammar 19:09:19 johlstei: sometimes I get spit in the face there :) 19:09:21 yes, agree that an an ignoring option of some kind, which Medar has talked about, would be great in general 19:09:25 this is why I think tileschat logging should have been kept on 19:09:28 by default 19:09:31 dpeg I did respond to one of your things on the god proposal. 19:09:40 Bcadren: ah, cool 19:09:42 so that a log could be linked as proof 19:09:44 thanks for keeping my thread alive 19:10:13 oh, yeah, without a log you wouldn't have any evidence anyway 19:10:20 I am not really sure we want proofs for police action... we may want proof for banning, though... need to show the admins something 19:10:24 there are lots of a cool brand ideas there and I hope that, if not accepted or this god doesn't go anywhere, they could end up on randarts 19:10:36 yeah, I doubt he did anything actually criminally liable, just gross and offputting 19:10:51 johlstei: at least! (I hope for the god, although the situation with the smithgod is slightly unfortunate... no idea how to resolve it) 19:11:25 dpeg: by the way, there might be a need for a thread that addresses the issue of crawl going into bad direction generally 19:11:54 yokelz: more context, please 19:11:55 "We're ruining Crawl, you're welcome." 19:12:06 Bcadren: you mean email? (Sorry, I am missing something.) 19:12:22 the wiki entry on the god. 19:12:25 greensnark: and we're doing it for years already! So much left to ruin, hell yeah!! 19:12:27 dpeg: I hear you played a game recently :) 19:12:28 Bcadren: <3 19:12:32 We came here to ruin crawl and chew bubblegum...and we're all out of bubblegum.. 19:12:55 greensnark: I got banished (twice) and died there, but unlike those chumps I took it like a man and didn't blame the devs for my death. 19:13:05 dpeg: I'm referring to dck saying shoals going into bad direction and you asking more about it 19:13:25 dpeg: I'm just saying that there are several people who don't like many of the things in 0.14 19:13:27 dpeg: Well, you being a dev might have biased you somewhat :D 19:13:36 yokelz: ah, yeah. The forum is full of comments like this... and I have read stuff along these lines since 0.2 :) 19:13:37 !lg dpeg 19:13:38 1966. dpeg the Chucker (L1 HuHu), quit the game on D:1 (shiori_shiawase) on 2014-03-08 00:11:45, with 0 points after 0 turns and 0:01:05. 19:13:41 !lg dpeg xl>10 19:13:42 258. dpeg the Phalangite (L21 MfFi of Okawaru), impaled on a Hell Sentinel's spines (summoned by an ancient lich) on Abyss:1 on 2014-03-05 22:01:27, with 312608 points after 57473 turns and 5:00:47. 19:13:46 Nice 19:13:50 dpeg: Have you read Hyperion 19:13:51 !lg greensnark 19:13:52 526. greensnark the Digger (L5 TrEE), slain by a sky beast on D:4 on 2013-12-29 22:47:04, with 239 points after 2260 turns and 0:11:46. 19:13:57 dpeg: okay, I'm not a good person to say much since I only started in 0.12 19:13:59 greensnark: no. Should I? 19:14:00 !abyss gammafunk 19:14:01 greensnark casts a spell. gammafunk is devoured by a tear in reality! 19:14:08 hehe 19:14:19 but if I have to think quickly, only good things in 0.14 are wand-id and summons going away 19:14:20 im new since 0.11 and most of the changes are good 19:14:22 greensnark: in other news, I now have Linley's address. I could visit him! 19:14:29 dpeg: There's a god/creature called the Shrike in it that impales people on a tree of thorns 19:14:35 !apt mi 19:14:36 Mi: Fighting: 2, Short: 1, Long: 2!, Axes: 2, Maces: 2, Polearms: 2, Staves: 2!, Slings: 1, Bows: 1, Xbows: 1, Throw: 0, Armour: 2!, Dodge: 1, Stealth: -1, Shields: 2!, UC: 1!, Splcast: -4, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -4*, Charms: -4*, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -2, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -2, Poison: -3*, Inv: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: -2* 19:14:47 dpeg: Oh, does he live on your continent now? 19:15:09 greensnark: no, no. I would have to convince my wife to pack our stuff and move to Australia. 19:15:28 yokelz: I don't follow. So you are unhappy with recent development? 19:15:40 dpeg: Good idea, meet some nice quokkas, drop in on Linley, get abducted by kangaroos, etc. 19:16:02 greensnark: will do, gotta finish that book before, though 19:16:02 dpeg: some of it, yeah 19:16:24 yokelz: but why a dedicated thread? So the haters have a nice congregation place? 19:16:33 the forum is full of feedback 19:16:49 we could feel more empowered in the thread 19:17:01 -!- Nstar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:57 well, my issue is the subtle difficulty creep though 19:18:42 If I look at the changelog, I see only good stuff: Snake/Swamp/Abyss monsters, rune lock, interface, god wrath (finally!), new god, two new species, new summon spells (with actual thought behind them!), deterministic poison 19:18:47 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 19:19:08 players will get worked up about the removals (racial equipment, whatever) but hey 19:19:20 yokelz: the usual trend in games is power creep 19:19:43 doesn't really motivate me to get better at the game if the game is getting harder at the same time 19:19:46 Crawl is strong enough to feature difficulty creep instead. You should be proud! "Win now, it could be impossible in 0.16!!!" 19:20:06 it does motivate me 19:20:10 me too 19:20:29 also how can you say theres difficulty creep when gargoyles exist 19:20:35 I have noted that I have to rely on easy combinations to make it reliable into the (3-rune) endgame. Good stuff! 19:20:43 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 19:21:23 it's cute to say "feel more empowered" when really it's "feel more entitled" 19:21:28 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:21:58 wow, that was a dedicated statement 19:22:21 Did he just pop in to say that :) 19:22:31 seems like it 19:22:34 okay, guess the thread isn't needed, we'll just keep blowing off steam on another website 19:22:41 -!- Zilis has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:42 should change nick to "tenofwords" 19:22:44 !lg * (( cv=0.13 || cv=0.13-a )) !boring / won 19:22:44 the old tenofswords is back, apparently 19:22:45 2500/336392 games for * ((cv=0.13 || cv=0.13-a) !boring): N=2500/336392 (0.74%) 19:22:49 !lg * (( cv=0.14 || cv=0.14-a )) !boring / won 19:22:51 1814/259587 games for * ((cv=0.14 || cv=0.14-a) !boring): N=1814/259587 (0.70%) 19:22:59 would like to see better death stats tbh 19:23:06 maybe look at where the deaths are occurring 19:23:07 sa thread seems a little histrionic about any changes 19:23:14 sa threads in general, yes 19:23:27 reddit seems a lot more civilized, in comparison 19:23:29 johlstei: not referring to sa 19:23:38 not everyone there, but the lesser involved people 19:23:53 yokelz: What I am saying is: the two statements of "0.14 is a regression, I will play 0.13 and never look back", and "the devs are only thinking of the elite players, they don't care for new or weaker players" are old as fuck 19:23:53 lol sa still my favorite forum 19:23:57 doesn't make them true 19:24:20 I can't bring myself to pay $10 for SA access 19:24:21 dpeg: I'm referreing to almost-elite players here who don't like the direction 19:24:25 even if I am a bit curious 19:24:50 about SA histrionic: it has gotten much better over the years, imo. I still cannot post there, of course. 19:24:50 hehe, almost-elite 19:24:53 its shrunk in recent years, but still really good for some things 19:25:22 gammafunk: well if by elite he/they mean elliptic-caliber people or the top 0,01% 19:25:30 yeah dpeg it is kind of a forum for being jerks to each other in an overstated way 19:25:39 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:43 gammafunk: someone gifted me a SA account!!! I was really surprised (and grateful). Felt obliged to actually comment there... until we had a kind of fall-out <3 19:25:43 yokelz: most would probably just use "greaterplayer" to the extent that it's a meaningful concept 19:26:02 its jarring if you only know the crawl thread but it fits with the rest of the place 19:26:20 dpeg: yes, that was not a great incident, but it ended up ok at least :) 19:26:39 dpeg: I'm not saying it was the runelock but to non-educated player it seems a milestone 19:26:44 yokelz: every player, good or not, is entitled to opinions on the game. Of course, some of them will dislike some changes. Heck, I dislike some changes. Where's the trend? 19:26:53 dpeg: and you're right if you look at changelog there's good stuff 19:27:03 runelock got me a win 19:27:21 gammafunk: oh, the Draco affair was a minor indicent compared to what happened before (0.8 or whatever, I forget) 19:27:32 this is when I'd suggest a thread of "pre-0.14, what are the things that you don't like" and then someone sane says it's a bad idea 19:27:39 johlstei: oh, nice! How? 19:27:58 I dunno my whole strategy of branch order was all wrong 19:28:02 dpeg: oh, didn't realize the SA acrimony went that far back. stands to reason. 19:28:07 I'd try to clear V:1-4 before touching a lair branch 19:28:28 johlstei: that was sort of point of the runelock if I understood the arguments for it at all 19:28:30 actually trying to slurp up all the XP possible and then doing a lair branch made me quickly get a rune 19:28:40 yokelz: it's okay if players get worked up about the rune lock... it's a concept easy to understand, and also to misunderstand. They say it restricts their freedom, I explain the benefits, no big deal. 19:28:40 and then some more runes 19:28:55 If you leave Crawl for MD cut or rune lock, you haven't ever been in it. 19:29:12 dpeg: yes I was around when it came, I was somewhat annoyed by it but in the end it didn't actually matter much 19:29:15 I do like how vaults the branch ended up being locked; thematically appropriate at least 19:29:25 yeah the flavor is a lot better locking vaults 19:29:47 well, my motivation behind the actual execution was to get a lot more flexible with Crawl's rules 19:30:10 the effect on games could be still bigger, imo, but we can afford to walk slowly... to crawl 19:30:16 nerf exp, remove D:17-20 altogether, buff lair branches.. 19:30:20 with all the rebalancing I almost think it is now unnecessary, especially if vaults were in depths 19:30:45 but i liked the idea from the start and I'm happy with where it is now 19:30:48 no need for depths runelock since no one sensible wants to go there anyway 19:30:58 yokelz: people have realised for years that Crawl's midgame is a boring plight 19:31:13 we did something about it, and not all of a sudden, this is a very longterm thing 19:31:24 tenofswords pan changes might also lead to the Great Extended Reform 19:31:29 I've heard talk of changing Tomb 19:31:40 Lair branches at XL20 in 0.13 were really so much easier than they're now at XL14 19:31:40 obviously post 0.14 19:31:57 gammafunk: yes... nothing should be sancrosanct, we can always revert if a change fizzles 19:32:08 well you can get like XL17 by the time you are doing a branch end 19:32:25 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32:26 depending on loot/combo it can be really hard still but that's crawl 19:32:50 yokelz: some players are annoyed because they have a harder time winning, some good players are annoyed because stunts are harder to pull off? Winning and streaking is certainly possible, and I see plenty of YAVPs 19:33:35 A lot of elite players have a very reductionist mindset; they seem to want to distill crawl down to its simplest elements, but taking the game entirely in that direction isn't good, I think 19:33:46 I rather have a boring plight for 5 hours and win than think 5 minutes for every step and still die 19:33:58 yokelz: we don't 19:34:05 I disagree wholeheartedly 19:34:57 !whichgod mifi 19:34:58 195 recent wins: 85x The Shining One, 61x Okawaru, 14x Zin, 9x Trog, 8x Jiyva, 4x Makhleb, 4x Cheibriados, 3x Ashenzari, 2x Nemelex Xobeh, 2x Yredelemnul, , Dithmenos, Kikubaaqudgha 19:35:02 -!- link_108 has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:06 the parts where every move is key and to be thought about are the most fun 19:35:25 gammafunk: yes, we don't have to give in... Thankfully not all of them, but quite a lot (and vocal ones) seem to think exclusively in these terms.... but we also have to think about infrequent players. You often see this about interface or flavour questions. 19:35:39 I think there should be some sort of balance, but yeah you can affect that in character creation 19:35:54 yokelz: sure, play easy combos. They exist for a reasons. 19:36:13 I treat crawl like an abstract game like chess or go though 19:36:17 dpeg: yeah I play them from time to time to keep up an illusion I'm worth something as a player 19:36:28 My first win was HDFi... which made HD the first genocide target, of course. (Second win was GEAE :) 19:36:29 really i treat all games like that 19:36:52 dpeg: Yeah, I've seen a lot of players that get past the greaterplayer milestone begin to complain a lot more, and it seems to be that they can't think as well in terms of how new and said infrequent players perceive the game. 19:37:12 thats no reason not to have a good ui though 19:37:15 personally basically none of my complaints with crawl have much to do with difficulty 19:37:35 and i feel like almost all the complaints i read about difficulty miss the point 19:37:38 johlstei: sure, but my point is that "good ui" is not a universal notion 19:37:38 gammafunk: of course they can't as well, but can the devs either? =P 19:38:00 yokelz: yes in the sense that we actively try to do so (key word is try) 19:38:00 dpeg I didn't mean that as a complaint 19:38:03 yokelz: I do constantly think of new players. 19:38:15 I just don't think good players want to neglect ui for their own concerns 19:38:22 (and some devs have been doing it longer than newer ones) 19:38:27 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:39:04 crate: players are players (i.e. they don't have to be expected to talk in design terms) but some comments are too idiosyncratic for me. Sometimes I feel they hate Crawl :) 19:39:26 I was going to comment something about the game being absolutely brutal for new players now, but 19:39:37 yokelz: it is possible to be in the devteam without being able to win the game 19:39:43 :) 19:39:55 !gamesby SamB 19:39:55 i just find it weird that players complain about the fact that things are difficult, rather than the way in which they create their (lack of) challenge 19:39:55 SamB has played 1398 games, between 2011-08-08 15:21:44 and 2013-12-27 01:32:32, won 0, high score 298746, total score 2047943, total turns 3986873, play-time/day 0:21:54, total time 13d+6:50:58. 19:39:57 well when are you not a new player any more? 19:40:08 since personally i care about the latter much much more 19:40:19 Bcadren: the long list is not a major issue. Just wanted to point out that we cannot print it like that in the god screen. (Although Zin seems to come close.) 19:40:24 even when i play games i'm not good at :) 19:40:32 I don't think the game pre-lair branches has gotten any harder 19:40:52 and yeah, things that make the game easier but more "tedious" should be destroyed 19:40:57 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:00 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 19:41:01 -!- rast- is now known as rast 19:41:09 -!- gnum has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:22 I remember playing some version of crawl in dos, where I started out in a corridor with kobold at the end and I couldn't kill it by any means 19:41:30 crate: this is true, but I got tired of explaining that power is *not* the issue when talking about first designs. It seems very hard to get across. 19:41:53 johlstei: but we should try to avoid making the game too much harder for beginners in the process ... 19:42:07 yeah, definitely, I'm not saying ignore their concerns 19:42:10 i played 0.4 a while back and it felt much harder than .13 to me 19:42:17 but this could be a familiarity thing 19:42:22 but the idea of being reactionary to any change which might make things harder is awful to me 19:42:44 I'd rather have fun and die than be bored and win 19:42:46 I got into Lair twice in about 50 games and then I deleted it 19:42:50 johlstei: so, it's okay to avoidable things harder for sure 19:43:10 +make 19:43:14 you shouldnt make avoidable things too hard though ... no point in them existing if the right choice is always avoidance! 19:43:16 otherwise, you must think 19:43:29 the early game of crawl seems excellently curated to ramp up nicely, has that gotten many complaints? 19:43:33 SamB: we have a good gauge on that because Crawl has so many players... YAVPs are a measure of how hard Crawl really is. 19:43:39 It doesn't even seem to have changed much 19:43:42 crate: well, I meant as far as not making it too hard for new players 19:44:22 well there was a guy who got 15 rune win in 4 weeks of playing, can't say the game is too hard! 19:44:24 johlstei: I actually think that Crawl players are above-average in discussing this. Many of them (also on SA) have embraced the ideas of purging bad stuff (not just adding new stuff)m, nerfing overpowered features etc. 19:44:26 more extensive tutorials might help, not volunteering 19:44:42 johlstei: yes, pain in the ass :( 19:44:55 compare/contrast discussions about crawl changes to discussions about changes in some given random MMO, realize how good Crawl has it 19:45:02 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:04 one thing i've found in friends I've introduced the game to is 19:45:11 new players universally don't decide where to fight 19:45:14 SwissStopwatch: tried to say something like this, I guess 19:45:16 they just fight where the monster is 19:45:23 johlstei: you don't have to do that in nethack 19:45:25 SwissStopwatch: it probably helps that upgrades aren't forced? 19:45:50 Well that could be a difference but a lot of people just upgrade and complain anyway 19:45:51 It's been awhile since I've done the tutorial, but having a centaur there and guiding people towards getting out of LOS might be a quick way to help 19:46:09 that sounds excellent 19:46:11 as far as i know pretty much everyone who plays crawl upgrades to new versions anyway (at least when new stable ones are released) 19:46:12 SwissStopwatch: yes, but the most resistant have an out 19:46:33 or can at least upgrade on their own timeframe 19:46:45 crate: there are a few who cling to a particular version... tiny minority only, imo 19:47:01 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:06 but they might have been a VERY vocal minority if they did not have this choice 19:47:14 does anyone really think mountain dwarves are worth the xp pool 19:47:36 dpeg: and even one dev who does! 19:47:38 SA had a funny moment when players agreed that we're slack because we declare Og to be a challenge species (and Xom a challenge god) instead of doing something about them <3 19:47:49 nonethousand: what? Who? 19:47:55 uh oh! 19:48:01 Names! And address! And no book!!! 19:48:02 !lg gammafunk s=cv 19:48:03 1225 games for gammafunk: 465x 0.12, 233x 0.12-a, 218x 0.13-a, 159x 0.13, 63x 0.11, 58x 0.14-a, 16x 0.10, 13x 0.11-a 19:48:08 dpeg: why would that be something to do something about? 19:48:30 SamB: no idea, cannot post on SA for sanity reasons 19:48:32 The part of that I have a problem understanding is how a race with +3 for the best apt is a challenge species 19:48:38 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:48:40 !lg gammafunk start>20131231 s=cv 19:48:40 149 games for gammafunk (start>20131231): 124x 0.12, 25x 0.14-a 19:48:41 people were sad about large rocks losing penetration 19:48:55 penetrating large rocks never made sense to me to begin with 19:48:56 johlstei: that never made it into any stable 19:49:05 having won most races now I don't think ogres are exactly a challenge race 19:49:07 yeah I think most people on SA play trunk 19:49:08 it was a virtual loss! 19:49:16 so it feels like a loss 19:49:32 people can be sad about losing anything, even about losing things that never quite happened 19:49:33 maybe they've stopped with all the hard stuff in there now, I don't know 19:49:37 The penetrating large rocks did make me do one interesting thing except it turned out that wasn't an intended consequence 19:49:37 -!- cr0ne has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:43 phantom pain... like adding MD for April's fools 19:49:45 Because penetration+shields were bugged 19:50:10 So my plan of charging out in front of my Yred army to tank for them apparently was not something that I should've been able to do 19:50:16 I think for april fools you should add in every old race except mountain dwarves 19:50:26 "yep they're all back enjoy!" 19:50:29 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:50:31 I would like to be able to enchant javelins and large rocks again, but I guess that will never happen. 19:50:48 johlstei: oh, your evil mind trumps mine 19:50:51 you say that now, but wait until you go play a version with ammo enchantment again... 19:51:08 ammo enchantment is a pain 19:51:12 crate: hm, maybe only for rocks: these don't have brands 19:51:14 oka gifting branded rocks would be fun 19:51:19 johlstei: it should add MDs too but when you pick it you get a felid instead 19:51:26 johlstei: isn't that the true spirit of april's fools anyway 19:51:28 mountain felids 19:51:31 Well ammo enchantment isn't a balance issue so much as it is "help why do I have 16 inventory slots of ammo" 19:51:31 yeah 19:51:37 enchanting large rocks was very problematic anyawy 19:51:40 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 19:51:45 you would want to drop every item in your inventory so you can pick up more rocks 19:51:46 to enchant 19:51:50 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:51:57 SwissStopwatch: yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about 19:51:57 I think for large rocks the situation w.r.t. Enchant scrolls was interesting early on. 19:52:02 fr bags of holding 19:52:14 yokelz: that's /kick worthy in there 19:52:17 +here 19:52:21 sorry 19:52:23 fr elbereth 19:52:27 lol 19:52:32 lol I know it will never happen, but bags of holding that take 100 turns to access seems like a fine alternative to stashing to me 19:52:34 it was a joke 19:52:36 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:46 maybe he finds bags of holding really offensive 19:52:48 no bags of holding? Guess we have to remove the floor 19:52:56 yokelz: I know 19:53:05 back in my nethack days I thought bag of holding was mandatory 19:53:16 johlstei: Plainly Crawl needs dwarf mountains 19:53:23 i remember i won a nethack game where i had no sack of any sort until geh or something 19:53:32 yes ive had one of those games before 19:53:33 that game taught me inventory management 19:53:35 maybe multiple 19:53:39 The answer to all stashing woes in non-persistent levels. Angband got it right all the time! 19:53:46 also my cpa nethack game taught me inventory management 19:53:53 dpeg, yes this is one of the things i like about doomrl 19:53:54 dpeg: Yes, it taught you to go to town a lot :) 19:53:55 i actually never wore cpa 19:54:00 because it was too heavy in nethack for me to care 19:54:12 greensnark: I have played Angband, of course 19:54:18 let me start with jiyva so I don't have to stash 19:54:19 * dpeg has some shreds of dignity. 19:54:31 dpeg: Yes, your town fetish is well known! 19:54:44 dpeg: Also we know you secretly hanker for shops that buy items 19:54:46 I am down with the town, it's true. 19:54:55 dpeg: And that is why you so vehemently argue for the opposite! 19:54:59 greensnark: only if they have haggling! 19:55:44 ive only played tome4, where they have no item destruction, no item limits, no corrosion, no food clock! 19:56:03 That sounds suspiciously like the promised land 19:56:07 sounds like a good game until you start a character and realize you start with potentially a half dozen or more skills each requiring a paragraph to explain what each thing does 19:56:08 dpeg Other than moving sanctuary earlier or giving a different earlier (like * ability) I can't think of anything I'd want to do to that god... 19:56:10 I'm gonna keep making bad tavern posts about removing food until y'all do it 19:56:31 the idea of non-persistent level is actually quite good... but being able to revisit levels forever is disastrous, with the town as some desaster candy... we learn from this that Rogue was correct from the outset 19:56:41 remove < 19:57:07 crate: branch alert! 19:57:13 why does item destruction have to be a thing 19:57:20 Some basic lm queries show that, comparing all 0.13/0.13-a to 0.14-a, the proportion of players that go on to win the game after entering a given branch has decreased generally by 20% for lair (9.2% to 7.5%) and water/poison lair branches (generally 25% to 20%) 19:57:25 yokelz: because item weight exists 19:57:30 remove < and food and item destruction all at once please 19:57:33 dpeg, yes, it does not work in crawl, heh 19:57:35 and as you might expect, the proportions for orc and vaults are basically unchanged 19:57:36 Bcadren: alright, give me some days to mull over it, then you should broadcast on the tavern, imo 19:57:56 yokelz: your pain is our joy 19:58:04 it makes us all giddy inside 19:58:06 ask greensnark 19:58:17 can someone make me a counter for items destroyed 19:58:35 What did I do now 19:58:35 zero, you never found them 19:58:37 options += corroded_items options += destroyed_items 19:58:40 I swear I do not destroy items 19:58:45 gammafunk: isn't that a very good thing? 19:58:51 dpeg: seems pretty reasonable to me :) 19:58:56 simmarine: what does that do 19:58:57 gammafunk: I ratted you out 19:59:05 yokelz: nothing actually 19:59:12 Just like to have some basic numbers that show how things are changing 19:59:20 nonethousand: how so? my games played by version 19:59:21 ? 19:59:32 yes 19:59:35 greensnark: you derive joy from hearing hapless players scream in anguish about losing their precious potions and scarce scrolls! 19:59:35 !next 19:59:36 The RNG decrees that gammafunk shall win he-- next. 19:59:50 nonethousand: next is saying I have to win the HE score, so that's what I have to do 20:00:23 dpeg: Not at all, I derive pleasure from having the anguished wailing directed at different people now :) 20:00:35 godspeed, gammafunk 20:00:42 dpeg: I call that a higher-kinded schadenfreude 20:00:43 -!- alefury has quit [] 20:02:00 greensnark: You little rascal. Yet whenever I put myself into the mood of removing item destruction outright, a little voice in my head whispers "but what would LINLEY say?", and I abstain from that sin. 20:02:17 Linley would visit you with a kangaroo 20:02:25 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:53 Ah, I remembered which game actually had kangaroos. It was Slash'EM 20:02:57 dpeg: think of it as an invitation for players to switch into a version filled to the brim with shiny new horrors 20:02:58 -!- Pladdicus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:02 the abduction team with their empty pouches! 20:03:03 dpeg: guaranteed yiuf with cloak of preservation, fair? 20:03:24 guaranteed does never sound fair to a developer 20:03:29 I think he might need a small buff in that case 20:03:33 dpeg: Do you remember Rob Ellwood's post about Slash'EM? 20:03:45 not sure, greensnark 20:03:52 give him a lajatang of chaos 20:03:54 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:13 dpeg: except when it's like guaranteed ilsuiw or vashnia 20:04:27 or profane halls 20:04:52 greensnark: I was smart enough not to try to satisfy my roguelike needs with Slash'EM when Nethack couldn't deliver... I turned straight to Crawl. I hear others needed longer :P 20:05:29 dpeg: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/v-m55ENZx_0/GpGiOch4wZMJ 20:05:44 The post isn't very accurate in the details, but it captures the broad outlines very well 20:06:05 Also ye gods, that is old 20:06:41 You know...Since Tomb of Doroklohe was removed...there are no Earth Magic spells that create new walls, though at least three that destroy it. 20:06:55 * Grunt comes into view. Zin warns you: He is a foul shapeshifter. 20:07:01 dpeg: It always amuses me that bhaak borrowed the Black Market from Slash'EM 20:07:04 yokelz: greensnark he's got so many things right. And then one fundamental blunder. Blammo! 20:07:10 sorry, yokelz -- 20:07:29 Bcadren: yes, with very good reason 20:08:19 I am sad that bhaak seems to be the only active NH forker who understands the concept of nerfing. 20:08:26 Tomb was too powerful for a spell and nothing else would be that helpful at all? That it? 20:08:48 dpeg: There are other NH forkers active, but they're not active on NH :P 20:09:00 I'm rather pleased we stole Grunt for instance 20:09:10 Even if his puns cause brain damage :P 20:09:29 Or is Grunt *secretly* active on NH still 20:09:38 Perhaps he sneaks off in disguise and plays AceHack? 20:09:41 I've already done enough damage to the NetHack community. <_< 20:09:41 Grunt: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 20:10:11 I would like to talk about this more (the last part and only one I added): https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:draconian 20:10:33 I originally started GruntHack because I was displeased with the prevalent mentality of "let's add in things that are cool!!!111". And subsequently fell victim to the same mentality. 20:11:17 s/that are/just because they're/ 20:11:27 Bcadren: ToD was the first spell where the Ancient Ones (greensnark and Erik) realised the brokeness, yes 20:11:35 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:50 s/Ancient/Great Old/ 20:11:52 dpeg: Erik realised the brokenness, I was as irresponsible as ever! 20:11:52 I'm more...let's add things that are mechanically different enough to be interesting... 20:11:52 <_< 20:11:56 greensnark: oh, I told bhaak that he can join here any day 20:12:03 Grunt: Hey, GruntHack was cool 20:12:29 Actually, the other part of GruntHack was "the intelligent pet patch deserves a nicer home, and I have a few other ideas for things to fix". 20:12:33 What were the cool things that you betrayed your principles for? :) 20:12:38 Bcadren: but not if they're broken! With god powers, you have a lot more leeway, because there is a more meaningful cost you can use 20:12:57 Grunt: You also made monsters use equipment like rings, right? 20:13:04 I think the tipping point was sneaking in some of the incomplete monster designs in the NetHack source code. 20:13:04 That was pretty damn cool 20:13:32 Bcadren: please send me a mail on the draconian... it is 3 am and I should play the piano and then sleep 20:13:38 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:42 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:14:58 That's why I like gods so much they change up everything...except win conditions. 20:15:51 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:25 yes... ain't no life without gods 20:16:39 I wish gods were real 20:16:57 Makhleb would be pretty handy for instance 20:17:13 If someone cuts you off on the road you could summon an Executioner and ask it to talk to the other driver 20:17:16 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:38 greensnark: I thought traffic in the US is a little better than over at Asia :) 20:17:47 -!- cr0ne has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:17:48 dpeg: I visited India recently :) 20:17:50 perhaps more in need of Cheibriados now? 20:18:22 * geekosaur considers that if gods had to put up with from worshippers what devs have to put up with from users, it's rather for the best that there's no e.g. Makhleb 20:18:33 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:44 Maybe we should only have Elyv 20:18:49 irl 20:19:03 geekosaur: Did you just compare dpeg to a god by analogy? 20:19:10 pacifying people sounds pretty useful 20:19:29 in a limited way, sort of 20:19:29 ??plog 20:19:30 plog[1/7]: When Crawl's name generator generates a name too short, it returns "Plog" instead of rerolling. That's why this name appears relatively often. 20:19:36 he kind of already is 20:19:58 but only because I was standing on the shoulders of other, lesser gods! 20:20:31 ??plog [2 20:20:32 plog[2/7]: No relation to Trog, apparently. 20:20:34 ??plog [3 20:20:35 plog[3/7]: Misspelling of ploog. 20:21:15 ??plog[5 20:21:16 plog[5/7]: SGrunt the Bewitcher (L16 FeCK) entered The Hall of Plog the Hellbinder on turn 56294. (Vaults:1) 20:21:30 people with lots of time on their hands! Anyway, the piano is calling unflinchingly... later! 20:21:30 ah, so dpeg is a hellbinder 20:21:31 (now where's the hall of Ploog the Hellbinder...) 20:21:43 ??plog[6 20:21:43 plog[6/7]: corvin the Axe Maniac (L23 LOBe) entered The Chambers of Plog the Cloud Mage on turn 66037. (Elf:2) 20:22:05 Hellbinder....pun on Hellbenders and binding to a pact? 20:22:10 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Gegen Elise] 20:23:30 I think the idea is just "take something from hell and bind it to the plane of reality (what demon summoners do)" 20:24:10 -!- ScarletJLL has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:25:23 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:42 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all!] 20:36:22 -!- NotKintak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:11 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3135-g081579c: More roctavian tiles (#8097). 10(14 minutes ago, 6 files, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=081579c7d6d2 20:39:11 03pubby02 {Grunt} 07* 0.14-a0-3136-g21dc400: Give Formicids bands. 10(26 hours ago, 2 files, 9+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=21dc400cc006 20:39:11 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3137-gd4f2dfe: Nudge FoVM enemies again. 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d4f2dfe12d5a 20:40:49 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:54 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:41:28 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:05 (63 commits) 20:42:18 -!- Kasofa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:37 thanks grunt! 20:42:43 Oh, you're here :) 20:42:58 just a bit 20:43:04 (clearly the next commit will land 50 enemies that need tiles) 20:43:14 note that the worldbinder plays hell with the auto-outliner btw 20:43:24 mm 20:43:40 I'll disable it for that, then. 20:43:57 aaand... well, probably the venom mage too, considering its magic effect thing 20:44:48 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:45:45 -!- HellTiger has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:46:05 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:20 rip ontoclasm 20:46:34 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3138-g633f8e0: De-rim a couple of tiles (roctavian). 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=633f8e048e72 20:46:37 you killed him with tile requests 20:47:57 (62 commits remain...) 20:49:11 Fortunately the remaining list of tiles is small. :) 20:49:24 (unless you look at the missing monster spell tiles, but I don't think we care about those particularly) 20:49:41 (considering how long it took me to notice that we had some missing from the *last* release...) 20:49:42 Dawn of the third day. 62 commits remain. 20:50:01 That would be at 24 commits, yes? :b 20:50:12 I expect fast work >_> 20:50:16 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:51:03 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:19 The really major one is the spellforged servitor (which I think roctavian was working on?); slightly less important, gargoyles; everything else has a (bad) tile already and so is less important... 20:53:50 yeah i've got the servitor on deck 20:53:56 Hooray :) 20:54:09 however it'll be a few days due to my sporadic internet access 20:54:31 * Grunt zaps a wand. roctavian's internet seems more stable. 20:54:40 (before, it was because i was traveling. now, i finally have a stable place, and squirrels chewed through the building's cable line?) 20:54:54 Grunt: did crushers get a tile yet? 20:55:02 gammafunk: oh right >_> 20:55:06 this obviously teaches me to sell all my things and go traveling again 20:55:09 bloax can do that one 20:55:15 gammafunk: I think Bloax was working on the crusher. 20:55:19 he did the octopode tile, yes 20:55:23 yeah. so that's covered 20:55:39 Tiles for the Tile God! 20:56:08 Grunt: any thoughts on the function documentation thing? 20:56:12 (glyphs for the glyph throne) 20:56:21 I even recall we may have something about it in the devel docs 20:57:01 I'd just love if we could have a bit less need for constant function chasing to figure out what an argument is supposed to do 20:58:06 Lord knows what someone would discover if they tried to document every function in crawl... 20:58:18 <|amethyst> Heh 20:58:25 <|amethyst> I think it's a good policy 20:58:26 You gaze into the code. You are driven mad! 20:58:37 <|amethyst> What really needs documentation, though, is the Lua API 20:58:45 gammafunk: they would discover that they are very tired 20:58:49 <|amethyst> That would help users too, not just us :) 20:59:01 _maybe_bloodify_square_or_give_grunt_ultimate_power() 20:59:03 the lua API also needs a decent documentation tool, I think 20:59:18 !send gammafunk beems 20:59:19 Sending beems to gammafunk. 20:59:42 Grunt: beems aren't news are they? 20:59:48 SamB: NOPE 21:00:02 |amethyst: is there a docgen format of some kind I should be using? 21:00:16 gammafunk: you mean doxygen for the C++? 21:00:21 I guess? 21:00:33 beem goes back to at least Crawl 2.x! 21:00:35 we have not one but TWO doxygen configurations for you to test it with 21:00:36 Not sure if someone has tried to do this or not 21:00:39 It is a time honoured tradition! 21:00:40 <_< 21:00:45 <|amethyst> http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/manual/docblocks.html 21:00:51 gammafunk: people have doxygened a few things 21:01:08 doxygen is clearly the thing we intend to use here 21:01:22 yeah, I assume that function I mentioned was following the a specific format (which looked kind of familiar) 21:01:22 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:35 <|amethyst> It's quite a bit like javadoc 21:01:43 <|amethyst> http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/manual/commands.html#cmd_intro is the list of \ and @ commands 21:01:50 huh, I've never seen style 4b 21:01:52 the ////////////////////// thing 21:02:02 <|amethyst> FR: use CWeb instead of doxygen 21:02:08 <|amethyst> literate crawl! 21:02:14 does CWeb support C++? 21:02:18 <|amethyst> no clue :) 21:02:19 and perhaps only whatever deranged person came up with lua after reading either the necronomicon or too much Tcl knows what to do about lua 21:02:22 does anyone use CWeb? 21:02:23 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:02:27 -!- link_108 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:39 gammafunk: you mean besides Knuth I assume? 21:02:55 yeah, do any mortals use CWeb, I should be asking 21:03:06 I didn't think Knuth used it either? (TeX was written in Pascal) 21:03:18 <|amethyst> Knuth is one of the authors of cweb anyway 21:03:29 that's the question about any literatea programming system: does anyone besides the author use it voluntarily? 21:03:36 <|amethyst> cweb came much later than TeX 21:03:43 yes, yes it did 21:04:11 <|amethyst> What was the thing about Pascal... 21:04:34 <|amethyst> 1970 - Niklaus Wirth creates Pascal, a procedural language. Critics immediately denounce Pascal because it uses "x := x + y" syntax instead of the more familiar C-like "x = x + y". This criticism happens in spite of the fact that C has not yet been invented. 21:04:38 unfortunately, ctangle is in the "texlive-binaries" package so it's not easy to find out what build-depends on it 21:04:47 <|amethyst> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html 21:04:48 * geekosaur is too tired to remeember anything but the comment about Niklaus Wirth and call by name vs call by value 21:05:00 |amethyst: lol 21:05:12 I was just thinking "but wait I thought C hadn't been ... oh" 21:05:21 <|amethyst> 1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix. 21:05:33 I love that timeline 21:05:33 the only match to grepping grunt in the .cc/.h source: 21:05:35 ./mon-cast.cc: // ugh. --Grunt 21:05:40 which is actually quite recent 21:05:44 ugh. 21:05:51 That reminds me; I was going to fix some of that. 21:05:56 gammafunk: that's with -i right? 21:05:57 (also I remember when people grumped about C's use of = and ==) 21:06:00 SamB: yes 21:06:14 SamB: and using find to get in subdirs 21:06:30 python has the right approach to allowing = in conditionals 21:06:32 (don't) 21:06:58 <|amethyst> I think Java's approach is better 21:07:04 if (you.religion = GOD_XOM) 21:07:17 <|amethyst> assignment is still an expression, but there is no implicit conversion to bool 21:07:27 still dangerous, potentially 21:07:31 but more rarely 21:07:35 <|amethyst> if it's boolean assignment, yes 21:07:48 idk I don't think that assignment in conditionals is a thing that should be encouraged 21:08:05 <|amethyst> if ((err = foo) != 0) 21:08:30 <|amethyst> or, harder to rewrite, while ((err = foo) != 0) 21:08:45 <|amethyst> if (foo = bar) should not be encouraged though 21:09:23 <|amethyst> I just don't like statements in general :) 21:09:36 if (you.religion = GOD_XOM) 21:10:22 1940s - Various "computers" are "programmed" using direct wiring and switches. Engineers do this in order to avoid the tabs vs spaces debate. 21:10:35 -!- nonethousand has left ##crawl-dev 21:10:55 <|amethyst> I understand why = has to be a statement in python, though, because of how variable binding works. 21:11:29 |amethyst: I thought that was just to avoid the bugs ? 21:12:28 <|amethyst> yeah, probably that's the real reason 21:12:57 <|amethyst> but maybe assigning or maybe binding in the middle of an expression, depending, makes my head hurt 21:13:33 -!- roctavian has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:14:00 hmm, don't local variables do time-travel in Python? 21:14:20 I think python3 added some actual notion of scoping? 21:14:52 for (err = foo; err != 0; err = foo) { } but I'll admit that's clunkier 21:15:05 python3 is great and I'm working with python2 now (for EMR) and I hate it :( 21:15:14 I thought python 2.x added *some* kind of notion, and maybe python3 cleaned it up to something sort-of sane? 21:15:14 well I mean it's still python 21:15:15 but 21:15:17 worse 21:15:44 <|amethyst> electronic medical records? 21:15:46 PleasingFungus: see, if you'd started on Python2, you'd think Python3 was Python, only less bad 21:15:46 python2 had some hack that didn't quite behave like real scoping 21:16:32 I remember reading about the "nested scopes" feature in some 2.x feature log ... 21:16:42 I started on python2 but it was long enough that I managed to forget the bad parts 21:16:48 *long ago enough 21:17:13 unrelated: someone posted the mermaid tavern topic on something awful 21:17:15 in 21:17:17 the feminism thread 21:17:20 <|amethyst> "We finally caught up with algol" 21:17:37 I mostly enjoy Python in the context of "it's definitely not Perl." 21:17:37 % python2 -c 'print __import__("__future__").nested_scopes' 21:17:37 _Feature((2, 1, 0, 'beta', 1), (2, 2, 0, 'alpha', 0), 16) 21:18:00 let the sigils die 21:18:57 hmm, what's the python3 syntax to do that? 21:19:44 SamB: print(), for one 21:19:45 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:54 true 21:20:18 and it seems we don't need to go to two? 21:21:10 print(__import__("__future__").nested_scopes) works for me 21:21:17 _Feature((2, 1, 0, 'beta', 1), (2, 2, 0, 'alpha', 0), 16) 21:21:20 me too 21:21:39 it seems that parts of the future are in actuality the distant past ;-) 21:21:55 yeah, seems so 21:22:12 who or what is barry, I wonder 21:22:24 ??barry 21:22:24 I don't have a page labeled barry in my learndb. 21:22:58 as in 'from __future__ import barry_as_FLUFL' 21:24:08 SamB: April Fools joke, it seems 21:24:23 -!- Kraito has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:40 lol at the PEP number 21:26:36 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:51 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 21:28:01 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:14 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:21 -!- rast- is now known as rast 21:30:01 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:05 -!- N78291 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:31:22 I'm still puzzled as to why they actually added it to __future__.py though 21:31:35 -!- NomadJim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:56 -!- debo has quit [Quit: debo] 21:31:59 %git :/monsters twice 21:32:00 07dolorous02 * 0.10-a0-2348-g20cc63c: Fix TSO's rewarding kills of unholy evil monsters twice. 10(2 years, 3 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=20cc63c267e8 21:32:10 looks like that fix is missing from the collateral kills case 21:33:16 anyway, yes, it looks like they finally added the missing piece in 3.0: the nonlocal keyword from PEP 3104 21:33:39 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:10 -!- link_108 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35:57 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:36:29 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:41 -!- rast- is now known as rast 21:37:12 Cannot find trove in Ctrl+o and Ctrl+f by Sandman25 21:37:36 -!- AreBrandon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:11 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:38:18 -!- Stendhal has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:33 -!- Stendhal is now known as Zilis 21:41:12 hm, am I correct that all by the most urgent messages aren't shown for timed portals because they are designed around the old timers? 21:41:18 all but 21:41:56 mrrr? seemed to show up for me 21:42:03 admittedly I missed this morning's update 21:43:58 they have messages but it looks like a volcano's timeout is 600-800 turns, but there is a message for 5000 which seems impossible now. or maybe this is an aut/turns thing 21:44:27 lol: Other well known languages in the ML family include OCaml, F#, and Visual Basic. 21:44:36 that's probably a LINQ joke 21:45:24 -!- Keanan has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:09 "this language has all the memory safety of C combined with all the blazing speed of Smalltalk." 21:46:11 lol 21:46:31 i wrote a patch that removes place_desc and altar_description from dgn-overview.cc, unused since 2007 or so. are they being kept around intentionally, or should i open a ticket with patch? 21:46:42 (it's just 'remove the functions', compiles and plays fine) 21:46:53 -!- Lysalla has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:47:30 gammafunk: I choose you 21:47:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 21:48:50 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:42 -!- Basil has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:37 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:00 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:27 floatingatoll: pretty safe bet it's the latter 21:52:54 that was my hope too :) 21:53:28 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3139-gb8ecda1: Don't double collateral unholy evil kill piety (78291) 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b8ecda177b61 21:53:28 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3140-gdeb40b5: Correct reversed logic for vampire !mut badness (#8246) 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=deb40b50be1e 21:53:30 open a ticket and see what happens 21:55:17 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: quit] 21:56:29 |amethyst: actually, they don't seem to be bad under any conditions for vampires 21:56:36 Why do Earth Elementalists spawn with Transmutations XP and no ability to train it? 21:56:37 as in, you get the mutation if you quaff them 21:56:43 no matter what your satiation 21:56:59 it's just that the mutation will be suppressed 21:57:33 (or that it might be a mutation that will be supressed) 21:57:40 -!- ayutzia has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:57:50 <|amethyst> gammafunk: oh? 21:57:56 <|amethyst> gammafunk: i thought you were supposed to get rot 21:58:20 <|amethyst> Oh, benemut doesn't? 21:58:52 nope, it doesn't 21:58:56 surprised me as well 21:59:01 %git :/benef 21:59:02 07DracoOmega02 {Grunt} * 0.14-a0-3061-gddf16db: Reduce Summon Mana Viper's level to 5 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ddf16dbc89de 21:59:12 oh, well, I recall some commit about it also 21:59:13 <|amethyst> ha 21:59:21 <|amethyst> %git 6191413d 21:59:21 07kilobyte02 * 0.14-a0-1124-g6191413: Don't rot vampires by potions of beneficial mutation. 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6191413d0304 21:59:27 there we go 22:00:07 -!- Pisano has quit [] 22:00:11 and then there's the fun issue of the helix card 22:00:25 I guess just treating that like a !mutation is the reasonable thing 22:00:33 but it also seems annoying e.g. for legendary helix 22:01:28 I guess you could make it always give Vp the mutation if it's a good mutation, and only check the hunger status for rmut if it's a bad one 22:02:10 -!- Keanan has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03:20 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3141-g7794724: Improve messaging / logic of a few monster spells. 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 58+ 39-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=779472412f8c 22:03:28 rip "ugh" 22:03:44 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 22:04:29 -!- Zilis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:51 -!- temujin has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:05:58 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3142-g171a264: Don't mark !benemut as bad for vampires at all. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=171a264c5c74 22:06:58 -!- Stendhal has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:10 58 commits <_< 22:07:45 -!- Stendhal is now known as Zilis 22:07:50 put a git hook for make_release.sh 0.14 if the commit number reaches 3200 22:07:57 nonon, make_branch.sh 22:07:58 :b 22:08:08 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:09 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:36 btw, something that people keep suggesting to me: 22:08:48 allow shops in Swamp and Spider, since there are sentient residents there now. 22:08:56 yeah, agree 22:09:06 it made shoals/snake better in a significant way 22:10:02 The person I should really ask is dpeg, who suggested shops not be in Swamp to begin with. >_> 22:10:10 %git 6d95e83 22:10:10 07by02 * 0.7.0-a0-1583-g6d95e83: Change shop distribution (dpeg). 10(3 years, 10 months ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6d95e830d8b5 22:10:31 "But I was an entirely different human 3 years and 10 months ago!" --dpeg 22:12:04 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 22:12:33 (fr: WITCHES for swamp) 22:12:39 <|amethyst> btw, should we maybe try to avoid marking things as both good_item and {useless,bad}_item? 22:12:41 (nah, too late for that) 22:12:48 I hear dwarf had some you can use 22:13:18 witch (03@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 130 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, 07vault | Res: 06magic(53) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 982 | Sp: mephitic cloud, sum.hydra, invisibility, 04esc:teleport self | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 22:13:18 %??witch 22:13:22 (thanks arenasprint) 22:13:33 summon hydra, hah 22:13:45 Clearly meph -> Monstrous Menagerie 22:14:33 Seems like marking items as both good and useless/bad would be contradictory, but I'm not sure under what contexts it arises 22:17:16 <|amethyst> gammafunk: !exp for mummies 22:17:31 <|amethyst> gammafunk: is_good_item doesn't pay attention to race etc. at all 22:18:10 <|amethyst> or !mut for ghouls (btw, should those be useless rather than bad? since you are prevented from actually drinking them) 22:18:17 <|amethyst> err 22:18:21 <|amethyst> !benemut for ghouls I mean 22:21:29 Yeah, !exp would be useless-only for mummies, and !benemut useless-only for mummies/gh 22:22:42 exp is also useless if all skills are maxed but I doubt that really matters 22:23:01 Also, when I was looking at the usage of this "temp" argument for various mutation/resistance related functions, it seems to be used inconsistantly 22:23:19 But I'm scared to go reforming it without breaking mysterious things 22:24:28 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:24:51 hrm, funny thing is, pre-new-drain, it might have been technically possible to have all-27 skills and be XL 26 22:25:04 or < XL27 in any case 22:25:20 also, doesn't !exp kind of act like "cure drain"? 22:25:39 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:43 I thought that didn't work? or maybe that was ash wrath 22:26:14 oh, and I guess felids 22:26:36 or is that always tied to an XL increase 22:35:16 evidently !exp somehow doesn't work for level drain ... 22:35:22 or so I heard 22:36:05 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:10 -!- CKyle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:39:17 -!- Zephanos has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:41:35 -!- CKyle has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:41:35 -!- CKyle_ is now known as CKyle 22:42:23 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:32 man... 22:45:51 -!- Bcadren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:58 -!- Sizzell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:21 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:22 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:28 -!- icantfindaname has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:46:29 -!- NilsBloodaxe_ has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:59 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:16 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:20 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:43 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:44 -!- TangoBravo has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:49:46 -!- astralTentacle has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:19 -!- cptwinky has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:43 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 22:56:05 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3143-g9512724: Don't mark !exp etc as both good and useless for mummies. 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9512724d1af1 22:56:05 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3144-gc20c046: Mark !mutation as useless, not bad, for non-vampire undead. 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c20c04649c1b 22:56:05 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-3145-gc3ea3b7: Formatting fixes. 10(4 minutes ago, 6 files, 3+ 13-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c3ea3b707afa 22:57:53 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:58:26 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:28 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:42 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:05:11 hm, if octopode crushers throw your summons I think it throws the player 23:05:35 don't see anything in the log about it grabbing me (I'm not sure if it even can constrict a naga) 23:06:56 <|amethyst> it shouldn't use the foe 23:07:02 <|amethyst> but rather the constrictee 23:07:18 <|amethyst> or one of them 23:10:22 lemuel_troll_bridge probably shouldn't have runed doors in depths, if that is possible 23:10:40 octopode crusher (08x) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 83-114 | AC/EV: 1/18 | Dam: 35, 1003(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(56), 12drown | XP: 1613 | Sp: throw icicle (3d23), melee | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 23:10:40 %??octopode crusher 23:13:17 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:21:29 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:33 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:23:08 -!- master_j has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 23:23:43 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:27:55 -!- Leafsnail has quit [Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night] 23:28:33 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:33 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-3146-g9d36bc6: Badtiles for the latest unrands. 10(3 minutes ago, 7 files, 12+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9d36bc65e8b8 23:29:55 fr: a player inner flame effect so felids getting hit with Firestarter can explode and kill their opponents 23:30:19 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 23:31:04 haha 23:31:34 N78291: oh, really? it threw you when you weren't constricted? 23:32:25 yes, it was actually constricting my summoned ugly thing 23:32:41 And yeah, I think it can constrict naga; it's just that whoever starts the constriction first gets to constrict iirc 23:32:48 N78291: ok, will look into that 23:32:56 <|amethyst> it's not big enough to constrict nagas 23:33:11 that would make sense 23:33:12 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I think where it uses mons->get_foe() it needs to instead pick one of the constricted monsters 23:33:45 hrm, yeah, the initial call to monster ability isn't tied to a particular target, is it 23:33:53 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 23:33:55 as in, it's just "use your ability, monster" 23:34:00 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 23:34:06 in which case yeah I'm looking at the wrong target 23:34:09 <|amethyst> gammafunk: and foe is "who is this monster currently targetting" 23:34:20 <|amethyst> which might not be the constrictee, since constriction is passive 23:34:38 <|amethyst> continued constriction is passive I mean 23:34:44 ok, I can fix that after I push this commit 23:35:04 I do like throwing N78291 around though 23:35:43 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:11 personal opinion on octopode crushers: I didn't know they did anything different when I played 23:36:18 I never even got constricted ocne 23:36:25 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:36:28 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:38 -!- rast- is now known as rast 23:36:39 <|amethyst> Were you a big race by any chance? 23:36:51 <|amethyst> they can't constrict nagas, centaurs, ogres, and trolls 23:37:00 Well, they don't need to be very flashy; if you take them out at range or are large, they're just a melee guy with icicle 23:37:43 Not to say we can't add something later; they had a "water harpoon" to yank targets adjacent at one point (with damage) but it felt too similar to "blink close + a conjuration" 23:38:05 <|amethyst> FR: tentacled starspawn appear in packs and toss you back and forth among themselves 23:38:16 haha 23:38:18 oh, on the subject of icicle, they stare at you to cast 23:38:22 not sure if that is intended 23:38:34 oh, meaning they can't gesture? 23:38:42 or speak I guess? 23:38:59 no gesture because not humanoid probably 23:39:10 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:12 probably some weird monster_has_hands() thing 23:39:23 <|amethyst> non-humanoid wizard cast targeted 23:39:36 to be fair, octopodes have pretty spooky eyes 23:39:37 it's fine, have you ever seen the cephelopod eyes? frightening. 23:39:37 -!- Pisano has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:50 and I'm sure I spelled that word wrong 23:40:31 -!- ZebTM has quit [] 23:40:40 Eronarn: you have plans to try some more work on LO after 0.14? 23:41:03 please say yes Eronarn 23:41:13 coding crawl stuff is so far down my priority list, i hate C++ 23:41:35 but i would be happy to pitch in on coming up wiht revamp ideas 23:41:50 hrm, well pubby has his new species in his branch 23:41:58 not sure what kind of state/direction that is in 23:42:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:16 but it seems that LO specifically is on the path to Dj status 23:42:25 'removed'? 23:42:31 maybe we should just remove them at this point 23:42:39 rip xw 23:43:11 !tell wheals are you a bad enough dude to remove the lava orc? 23:43:11 gammafunk: OK, I'll let wheals know. 23:43:18 ;_; 23:43:31 that would be v. sad 23:43:34 rip LO 23:43:34 rip 23:43:38 again, anyone can step in and overrride me here 23:43:50 Eronarn: well I think pubby's plan includes some LO things 23:43:54 hrm 23:43:54 my case for LO: they make a lot of words 23:44:06 that's why they were created 23:44:13 <|amethyst> so would (Sa)lamander :) 23:44:20 Salamander? 23:44:36 salamander would have all the same problems lava orc does though 23:44:39 since it's just lava naga 23:44:45 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=25e739b1873308c36d4e3ff376170305cb7ef717 23:44:51 I think it's actually playable now? 23:45:23 ugh that sounds like exactly the wrong direction 23:45:25 yes, it is 23:45:29 it's in the experimental branch, I've seen players using them 23:45:37 taking a bunch of gimmicks and mashing them up... 23:46:06 -!- Kraito has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:46:41 Eronarn: well, I'm by no means advocating that no one work on LO, I'm just not sure if anyone has any plans to at this point 23:46:58 imo what lorcs need is either some dedicated work on tension, or to use another mechanic 23:47:19 something like differential HD of the strongest enemy 23:47:50 so one 10 HD = some heat for an XL 10 lorc, one 8 HD = very little heat 23:48:09 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:48:35 some of their apts/abilities could use work but most of the complaints have been about the rules for getting their abilities active sucking 23:48:50 because it wasn't designed around people kiting for tension 23:48:59 yeah, tension is not a very good mechanic 23:50:03 they aren't as hopeless as Dj was 23:51:14 Well, I'm seeing a least a few people on the crd discussion advocating leaving them in trunk for further work, so maybe just mark them as alpha instead 23:51:45 -!- votemporik has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:52:10 But someone will have to take them up the implementation issues soon after 0.14 if they're to remain, I think 23:53:16 !tell wheals Maybe just disable LO for 0.14 based on crd discussion, but feel free to ignore me on that if a different consensus is reached 23:53:17 gammafunk: OK, I'll let wheals know. 23:53:17 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: I quit] 23:55:41 I wonder if using ash tiers (tough sensed monster, trivial sensed monster) would work better than tension 23:55:53 -!- moose has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:15 though that doesn't help with divining the black magic formula needed to make a temperature out of it 23:57:36 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 23:57:40 -!- Lysalla has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:57:56 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:24 I thought disable LO was the default option 23:59:40 and to do otherwise required a GR