00:01:19 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 00:01:56 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:33 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:29 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2970-g9e77732 (34) 00:08:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:00 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16:35 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:23 Grunt: bring back floating baby orb guardians for april 1st! 00:35:38 -!- Squiggler has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:36:13 seconded 00:36:16 see how long it takes people to notice 00:46:04 well, if it goes in grunt's experimental branch on april 1st, players may or may not notice given all the other things in that 00:49:10 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 00:50:43 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 00:51:12 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:38 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:55:08 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:56:15 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:21 -!- lessens has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:34 -!- asdftest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:01:45 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:12 -!- scrubnub has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:37 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:59 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:43 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:10:48 -!- rast- is now known as rast 01:14:42 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:16:20 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:29 Bringing back floating baby orb guardians in general sounds good to me actually, I've come to regret suggesting replacement. 01:18:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:18:23 -!- rast- is now known as rast 01:19:03 what is a baby orb 01:19:21 Original orb guardian tiles were little floating babies 01:20:19 !source rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/orb_guardian.png 01:20:20 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/orb_guardian.png;hb=HEAD 01:22:10 I seriously rather like the "baby" tile, bizarre as it is 01:23:22 the god avatar tiles are nice, too 01:23:27 UNUSED/gods 01:26:02 -!- Somefellow has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:28:33 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:22 * SamB wonders where the heck he left Soul Music ... 01:32:25 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:48 -!- Somefellow has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37:13 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:38 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 01:38:48 * SamB findally finds it 01:39:01 * SamB can't type, goes to bed like he was planning to all along ... 01:46:46 -!- Somefellow has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:04 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:01 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:47 -!- Somefellow has 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ZZZzzz…] 03:37:08 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:42 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 03:44:05 -!- Basil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:52:45 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:06 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 03:56:06 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 03:56:06 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:21 -!- browncustard has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:18 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:44 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:04:35 -!- CrazyArbalest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:05:38 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:39 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:16:05 -!- nubcakes has quit [Client Quit] 04:16:30 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:49 -!- browncustard has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:18 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:19:42 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:25:12 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:31 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:58 -!- Adventuro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:29:18 -!- whig has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:18 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:36:18 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:33 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:40:50 -!- minmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:40:51 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:46 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:03 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:07 Is there someone I should PM to propose april fools joke idea stuff? 04:51:10 -!- HellTiger__ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:51:38 -!- Amnesiac has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:26 -!- Somefellow has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:01:24 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:02:37 -!- Somefellow has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:39 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:03:25 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:16:51 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:45 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:19:54 -!- rast- is now known as rast 05:24:11 03ChrisOelmueller02 {Medar} 07* 0.14-a0-2971-gccfdd9c: Fix swapped labels in Ctrl-F (minmay, wheals) 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ccfdd9ccddc2 05:38:27 -!- johnny0_ is now known as johnny0 05:43:58 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 05:49:01 -!- rax_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:23 -!- ayutzia has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:10 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:46 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:54 -!- Lprsti99_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:55:54 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:55:55 -!- Zermako has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:56 -!- Lprsti99__ is now known as Lprsti99_ 05:56:13 -!- TZer0 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:13 -!- Fortescue has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:15 -!- Mateji has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:30 -!- jameyd has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:30 -!- _miek has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:49 -!- Amy|Sonata has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:50 -!- Fortescue has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:50 -!- the_glow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:50 -!- Moredread has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:51 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:52 -!- Fortescue has quit [Changing host] 05:56:52 -!- Fortescue has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:53 -!- pokes has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:55 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:19 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:50 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:11:00 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:11:08 -!- rast- is now known as rast 06:14:09 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:15:38 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:20:23 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:18 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:55 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:33 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:49 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:29 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:04 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:44 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:46:38 -!- Morokiane has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:55:37 -!- xnavy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:03 Is there someone I should PM to propose april fools joke idea stuff? 06:59:08 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:00:47 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:03:44 Bcadren: you could !tell Grunt, as he has some plans for an experimental branch (and I think trunk as well) 07:04:13 I couldn't get your hopes to high for anything you're not willing to implement yourself, though :p 07:04:47 I just don't have the time to right now. !tell leave a message I guess? 07:05:20 Bcadren: hi! 07:05:58 In general you can just talk here, instead of PMing anyone. 07:07:50 Alright. It's a silly April Foolsie idea anyways. Just...for a week or so All player Draconians become 'Pink' draconians. Which (a) have a silly looking tile instead of just a Pink recolor. (b) have summoning increased as primary focus stat and (c) breath butterflies as their breath ability. 07:08:58 nice 07:09:13 di they lay eggs? :) 07:09:40 lolwut? 07:09:49 Or perhaps shoot eggs out of their mouths >_> 07:10:22 heh, is dpeg idea kind of like an "easter draconian"? 07:10:30 s/dpeg/dpeg's/ 07:11:03 yes, but it will work better in 2015 (Easter 2014: April 20, Easter 2015: April 5) 07:11:43 In all honesty, pink draconians would be more fitting in Crawl than a few of the races currently in the game :p 07:13:29 honestly I'd like to see either fewer 'fire' draconians or more non-fire draconians, because Steam/Throw Fire and Sticky Flame Breath all being associated with the fire element makes it a much higher chance of getting something fire-associated than ice/earth/air. 07:14:34 Make Dowan and Duvessa draconians and call them Bob and Bub. 07:18:18 -!- Ianjohn has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:23 I think I'll make that into more of a thing and put it on the draconian page though it'd take me a bit. *disappears* 07:18:38 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:59 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:00 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:20:31 -!- sgiratch_ is now known as sgiratch 07:20:34 -!- sgiratch has quit [Changing host] 07:31:18 Medar: and have them have Engulf Range attacks 07:32:39 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:01 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:08 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:45:24 -!- TZer0 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:58 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 07:53:49 |amethyst: Best I could come up with: http://sprunge.us/iMhR?diff 07:54:45 !tell Grunt I think there is some value in having extremely rare out-of-branch monsters, e.g. shining eyes in vaults. They gently introduce players to the monster set of branches they may not have visited before. 07:54:45 alefury: OK, I'll let grunt know. 07:57:49 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:14 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:04 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 08:02:24 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [] 08:02:37 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:34 -!- IrssiMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:23 <|amethyst> Medar: hmm 08:06:23 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:06:45 <|amethyst> Medar: can't we look at the version? 08:07:38 -!- MaxFrosty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:07:51 How do we get the version? 08:08:16 <|amethyst> Medar: data["version"] thing in the code adjacent to what you added? 08:08:36 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:38 <|amethyst> err 08:08:39 It's a hash. 08:08:55 <|amethyst> oh 08:09:52 <|amethyst> I'm sure edlothiol had a good reason, but why do we use a hash for gamedirs instead of just the git revision or such? 08:10:07 <|amethyst> or something involving the git revision, rather 08:10:28 I don't know. 08:10:46 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:10:54 -!- rast- is now known as rast 08:11:06 %git 08:11:06 07ChrisOelmueller02 {Medar} * 0.14-a0-2971-gccfdd9c: Fix swapped labels in Ctrl-F (minmay, wheals) 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ccfdd9ccddc2 08:12:11 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:18:49 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:29 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:23 %git op-crusher 08:21:23 07gammafunk02 * 0.14-a0-2969-gea57e66: Octopode Crusher: An octopode warrior that throws your weight around. 10(12 hours ago, 19 files, 405+ 155-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ea57e6680142 08:21:33 er 08:21:47 %git :/"Fix various issues" 08:21:51 Could not find commit :/"Fix various issues" (git returned 128) 08:22:10 New stuff not showing up? ??cheipoke 08:22:30 %git op-crusher^{/Fix various} 08:22:30 07gammafunk02 * 0.14-a0-2967-g8eb6e88: Fix various issues with invisible monster indicators. 10(13 hours ago, 7 files, 184+ 72-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8eb6e889154e 08:22:36 no, just my inept querying 08:22:40 :) 08:23:10 |amethyst: If you could look at the changes in g8eb6e88 at some point, would be appreciated 08:23:36 I'd extend that to anyone who doesn't mind thinking about the tile cell update/ map knowledge update code 08:23:52 <|amethyst> !tell |amethyst look at 8eb6e88 (invis stuff) 08:23:53 |amethyst: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 08:24:00 thanks 08:24:10 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:34 I change the loop for that in show_init() some, and everything "just works," but there may be a more simplified way I could achieve some of this 08:25:52 How do I do this? 08:26:22 Bcadren: do what? 08:27:48 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:01 Though I made an initial statement I agree with about a Draconian suggestion/reform idea. I don't know how I'd actually want to do it specifically. The reform idea is in short; change them so there isn't such a strong lean towards fire (3 subspecies) and so they all have the same apt total (+5 on the purples is a bit rediculous)...but after saying that I get all brainfart/writer block on ideas about how to actually do that. 08:30:03 Bcadren: focus on one color at a time, imo 08:30:37 pretend none of the colors existed, now make a cool/interesting/fun green one 08:30:40 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:56 Onto; that's an interesting way of thinking. I was already thinking of replacing grey with silver (Player version of metal splinters and still +AC as primary resist). When it comes to breath weapons I have a lot of ideas. 08:33:12 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:24 chrome draconian 08:33:26 -!- rast- is now known as rast 08:34:08 Chrome like the quicksilver drake, focused on speed instead of a breath weapon? That actually might be a valid trade off (greys don't really seem it right now). 08:36:48 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:20 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:40:24 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:50 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:47:39 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:58 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:51:02 draconians with free speed 08:51:04 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:51:13 balanced, yo 08:53:08 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:39 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 08:55:17 Nothing is ever free. Just saying 'speed' is something worth trading an ability for 'water resistance' really isn't. Especially when blacks gain the flight anyways 08:58:31 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:00:38 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:12 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:09:00 innate evokable swiftness 09:16:41 %git 14b6cc24 09:16:41 07edlothiol02 * 0.12-a0-206-g14b6cc2: Webtiles: Make static file URL also dependent on the exact Crawl version. 10(1 year, 6 months ago, 2 files, 12+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=14b6cc245688 09:17:38 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:08 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:18:11 that doesn't actually do anything, it seems 09:18:16 well, maybe for games started from console 09:19:04 interesting. By ignoring (most) the originals I come up with better than what I would have had if I didn't. 09:20:26 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:42 oh, yes it does, if you don't use client_path in config.py 09:24:01 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:27:18 -!- TeshiAlair1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:29:55 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:53 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:46 -!- angry_point has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:35:52 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:24 -!- Roarke has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:42:55 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:32 -!- SeianVerian has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:48:02 -!- blackcustard has quit [Quit: being stupid, sunstruck, and Dead, flew into the rocketing FIN.] 09:53:49 |amethyst: Another try: http://sprunge.us/AcFd?diff 09:58:14 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:58:35 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:30 Honestly. I don't know if I like it now that I wrote it. 10:04:04 Just cutting some would be simpler. nonetheless; I will accept thoughts now that I did: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:draconian&#draconian_variety_improvement 10:04:18 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:05 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:07:14 That is a lot of colors. 10:07:22 I'm not sure shiny is a real color. 10:08:49 pale 10:08:54 Neither is mottled 10:08:55 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:19 This is all very troublesome. 10:09:25 What's next? "Dark white" draconians? 10:10:04 More seriously: I do like the idea of additional variety. 10:10:20 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:49 Pearl is odd; it'd largely only be useful in extended endgame, but my impression of dragonbreath is that it doesn't scale well even to normal late/endgame? 10:11:21 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 10:11:40 Yellow sounds really bad compared to the others. 10:12:16 Giving a non-Ely source of pacify (Pink) is odd. Not necessarily un-allowable, but odd. 10:12:39 Note that 'temporary pacification' has a very different meaning when near a set of up-stairs than when not. 10:12:54 idk maybe I should be putting this down on the wiki or something 10:13:23 pacification is a bad mechanic, you should really just charm things instead 10:13:38 the funniest deaths are to pacified enemies 10:13:44 it's largely the same effect except with about a billion fewer annoyances 10:14:27 last comment: pretty sure Shiny is hilariously strong, even when considering the others have largely been buffed. 10:14:31 also not a color. 10:14:54 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:15:07 Purple kind of feels odd as it is...instead of 'an element' breath it's...'removes buffs' which is mostly useful...against a few random spellcasters in elf and zot. 10:15:58 -!- Mateji has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:19 PleasingFungus change to... EV+; Repel Missiles evoke (instead of haste, lol) 10:16:47 haha, that's a bit more reasonable. 10:17:36 *editing* 10:17:39 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:19:59 wait, there was a Dr with haste breath? 10:20:38 -!- Fengor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:20:57 gammafunk I don't think so? 10:21:03 dang 10:21:25 Haste breath would only really be useful on a summoner (since you can't breath at yourself) 10:21:35 I guess heal wounds breath is off the table, then 10:22:05 makes sense 10:22:13 i mean, it sounds fine 10:22:44 haste breath actually sounds really cool, tbh 10:22:54 "random buff" breath 10:23:06 chaos buff? 10:23:12 Heal Wounds breath could be discussed I think...but that would have to be an Elyvilon worshipper to be useful. 10:23:20 or a summoner 10:23:22 or johnny0 10:23:31 or a yredite 10:23:34 or a necromancer 10:23:39 Bcadren: I'm not being serious :) 10:23:50 polymorph breath 10:23:54 no, i think a breath that encourages allies sounds interesting 10:24:06 dangit, wheals 10:24:35 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:24:49 Eronarn that would be a bit...too crazy; it's like evaporating potions of mutation back in the day that. 10:25:28 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:25:33 wheals not a necromancer...only Yred gifts and Beogh orcs can be healed. Zombies don't regenerate so healing is no use. 10:25:46 ??twisted ressurection 10:25:46 twisted ressurection ~ twisted resurrection[1/4]: Converts all piles of corpses in LOS into crawling corpses or macabre masses, very weak attackless creatures that can merge to form abominations. Creates 1HD worth of creatures per 60 to 20 aum, depending on spell power (and with half efficiency past 15 HD). Small aboms require 6HD and two corpses, large 11HD and three corpses. 10:25:52 ??haunt 10:25:52 haunt[1/3]: (L7 summ/necr): Summons 2-6 wraiths and undead "ghost" type monsters around the target. Smite-targetted, but only castable on a monster. Considered to be super good. Causes sickness when cast unless you worship Kikubaaqudgha and pass a piety-in-200 check. 10:26:07 ??death channel 10:26:07 death channel[1/1]: Level 6 necromancy spell in the book of Unlife. Gives you the temporary status of "channeling the dead" (check it in @ or %), during which anything killed by you or in your LOS comes back as a temporary friendly spectral thing (and can still leave a corpse, too). 10:26:33 "Considered to be super good." 10:26:38 Hey learndb, that's editorializing 10:26:46 Yea I knew the twisted; but not Haunt or Death Channel. 10:26:50 learndb? editorialize? 10:27:12 I meant that what was summoned by it could be healed, not it existed of course. 10:27:21 * Grunt grunts. 10:27:36 !send Grunt a scroll of silence 10:27:36 Sending a scroll of silence to Grunt. 10:27:47 rude 10:27:51 * Grunt gestures. A profound silence engulfs ##crawl-dev. 10:27:57 oh, maybe a silent spectre would have been smarter 10:28:00 * Grunt signs, "I can do that on my own, thanks! >_>) 10:28:36 * gammafunk writes El5 t3!% in the dust. 10:28:51 oh yeah, while people are around. I was poking at my frog-man species, and now the game crashes whenever they hop - is there anywhere I can look for a stack trace or some other kind of error dump? 10:28:55 * Grunt points at gammafunk and mumbles some strange words. gammafunk looks even more confused. 10:29:03 PleasingFungus: look in your morgue/ directory for crash-* 10:29:05 :) 10:29:36 -!- TeshiAlair1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:29:51 Unable to get stack trace on this platform. 10:29:52 nooooo 10:29:58 rip 10:30:35 hm. on the other hand, this stack trace seems to be from "crawl10" 10:30:42 *this error dump 10:30:50 and was last modified 4/28/2012 10:31:01 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:32 -!- rast- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:34 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:22 03Medar02 07* 0.14-a0-2972-g6333f05: Clean out all document event handlers when changing game version. 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6333f0549cf2 10:32:22 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:22 -!- truemonolith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:33:17 -!- rast- is now known as rast 10:33:46 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:47 It used to at least be that each draconian had a different resistance; now that rSteam doesn't exist; even looking at it that way there are two rF's. 10:37:27 -!- clouded_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:29 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:40 -!- clouded_ is now known as st_ 10:38:38 Well, not all draconian types need to be used. 10:39:17 I think the current number of types is pretty reasonable. It's the *quality* of them that's iffy. 10:41:48 doh 10:41:52 * Grunt finds another minmax error of his :( 10:41:55 * Grunt hides from gammafunk. 10:42:41 -!- lion_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:42:51 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:15 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2973-ga0332e0: Rejig base Dith piety gain again. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a0332e025f0a 10:44:15 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2974-g15aa933: Let fighting skill influence Dith's shadow mimic attacks. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=15aa9332fb21 10:44:28 Does anyone have any objection to 8230 10:44:52 oh, wasn't the last one related to dith shaodow mimics as well? 10:45:03 I think so :( 10:45:06 more beogh nerfs 10:45:07 shameful 10:45:15 wheals: I think MarvinPA was looking through it? You may want to ask him about it. 10:45:33 it's a beogh buff unless you manage to find orcish armour every time 10:45:55 huh, I even recall the last one also had to do with shadow mimic hd 10:46:11 ah, I see the comment now 10:46:12 oh 10:46:15 the last one was 10:46:17 %git 192af81 10:46:17 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-2360-g192af81: Fix a minmax error with Blink Allies Encircling. 10(5 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=192af8142f6b 10:46:26 yeah that's a buff 10:46:38 beogh still needs love but that's beyond the scope of this change obviously. 10:46:43 yeah, but I guess the one before that? 10:46:54 !bug 8230 10:46:55 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8230 10:47:24 %git 7c294fe 10:47:25 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-2099-g7c294fe: Fix shadow mimic spellcasting power (#8026). 10(6 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7c294fe32e8a 10:48:02 ah, ok 10:48:39 I am at very least serious in that I think Draconians shouldn't have such a heavy pull towards 'fire' element and that I think apts. wise they should have the same total (Purple being 5 more than most the others is particularly rediculous); beyond that I'm just unsure. I have cool breath ideas, but don't know what fits where and all that. Got nothing else to say about that now. 10:49:23 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:50:18 gammafunk: 8231 looks grand avatar-related - I think it was you that last touched that code? 10:51:06 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:54:43 !bug 8231 10:54:43 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8231 10:55:25 hrm, windows save and crash log with not even a stack trace, fun 10:55:57 There are other better crash logs of that bug. 10:56:00 !crashlog * pan 10:56:01 196. Pedroff, XL27 GrFi, T:185772 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Pedroff/crash-Pedroff-20140304-134229.txt 10:56:12 ...not that one <_< 10:56:14 !crashlog * !cao pan 10:56:15 157. rubinko, XL27 TeFE, T:89157 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/rubinko/crash-rubinko-20140220-214752.txt 10:56:22 oh, good 10:56:22 I have one more thing to write about...at least before I feel like I've gotten everything out. o_o sorry. 10:56:30 ...also not that one. 10:57:29 although that one was my fault, at least 10:57:39 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2974-g15aa933 (34) 10:58:18 !crashlog * !cao pan -2 10:58:19 156. rubinko, XL27 TeFE, T:89136 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/rubinko/crash-rubinko-20140220-214549.txt 10:58:23 !crashlog * !cao pan -3 10:58:24 155. rubinko, XL27 TeFE, T:90119 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/rubinko/crash-rubinko-20140220-214258.txt 10:58:27 ... 10:58:32 !crashlog * !cao pan name!=rubinko 10:58:32 153. doctordoom, XL27 DsCj, T:93999 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/doctordoom/crash-doctordoom-20140213-173308.txt 10:58:51 That's *related*, but I don't think it's the one you're looking for... 10:59:53 wheals: Does it give the Beogh bonus for all armour, or just things that could previously be racial? 11:00:15 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:01:18 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:14 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:08 rip wheals 11:04:29 Couldn't handle the hard questions. 11:04:51 -!- Ataraxzy|2 has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:06:55 Did there use to be a flaming cloud spell or am I insane? 11:07:18 -!- Quazifuji_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:07:42 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:33 Grunt: for that crash, I believe the problem is that grand_avatar_act is getting called after the avatar dissipates (monster energy); it needs a simple check that mons is alive, probably 11:08:44 not sure if it's the same issue as in the zig, though 11:08:51 gammafunk: go ahead and add it in, then? 11:09:08 yeah, just wish I could know that was the problem for sure... 11:12:28 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 11:14:43 Grunt: I did some thinking about Nemelex deck management after your comments last night and the idea of Stack Five 'splitting' a smaller deck off a larger expanding one at the cost of discarding X cards subsequent to it that you mentioned 11:15:11 Oh? Any further ideas? 11:15:14 I know it's not a new idea, but I find myself increasingly inclined towards the idea of decks which can grow, instead of just more and more decks. Because it's not like you can't already carry more decks than you could possibly use in one encounter 11:15:30 And my most recent Nemelex run at the moment is just drowning in the things, and I'm constantly shuffling inventory 11:15:52 Well, that's the whole point of the concept - avoiding the inventory management mess. 11:15:54 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:02 wheals rejoins the land of the living... 11:16:02 Peek at Two seems like nearly its sole function is just to ID new decks, and this isn't really that interesting 11:16:26 What if, instead, decks were pre-ID'd and you could replace it with something like Shuffle Two, which would merge two equivalent decks together randomly? 11:16:29 my computer was dead for a while... 11:16:48 Nemelex could gift cards into a deck you have, if it matches, or give you a new deck if it doesn't (which you could merge later if you wanted, or had some more of it elsewhere) 11:16:58 Into a non-stacked deck, I mean 11:17:16 The fact that the decks are unID'd really doesn't seem to matter, since you just automatically use Peek at Two every time 11:17:32 I mean in terms of changing the status quo doesn't really change the status quo 11:17:35 Except at very low piety 11:18:12 wheals: Does it give the Beogh bonus for all armour, or just things that could previously be racial? 11:18:30 "For now, give the Beogh bonus to all worshippers but reduce it a bit." 11:18:34 Hi wheals 11:18:53 but it uses the same function call as before 11:19:12 i don't know if that function was called for armour that couldn't even be orcish 11:19:45 I think this is the last thing I have to say right now. I really do. I def know that I shouldn't be spending my time drafting these. https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:cloud_mage_reform 11:20:32 i'm not sure how the new bonuses compare to the old ones, tbh 11:20:36 So if he was going to gift you a ornate deck of destruction and you already HAD an unstacked one, the cards could go directly into it. But if you didn't, you'd get the deck as normal. (Or maybe he could just still gift plain decks and leave it up to the player to Shuffle Two them? Which is slightly more interface burden, but there are other advantages to not automerging) 11:21:02 DracoOmega I do like that honestly; makes you less likely to end up with decks of punishment, etc. too 11:21:15 If the decks are going to behave like that, why have an item in your inventory at all? 11:22:42 Well, how do you handle multiple stacked ones? 11:22:42 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: why an unstacked one only? Wouldn't it be okay to put the new cards at the bottom? 11:22:45 Without them being seperate items 11:22:51 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: or I guess the problem is that you can't re-stack decks 11:22:56 Let me rephrase: 11:23:12 the *base* decks which Nemelex adds to don't have to be inventory items; if you stack from those you still get decks in inventory. 11:23:39 I think that might be somewhat confusing, given that you can find those decks around the dungeon anyway 11:23:42 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: never mind, I didn't scroll up far enough 11:24:01 oh, no, I see the probelm in grand_avatar_act now 11:24:02 So you have a bunch of decks that are 'abstract', yet the same kinds of decks that are items? 11:24:12 Medar: it's done for every armour item, but i think all of them could be orcish anyway 11:24:22 DracoOmega: Un-Id'd decks give you piety if you draw the first card from them, Id'd decks don't, so you have a choice between "Gain piety"and "Use safely" 11:24:38 (Well, I'd favour getting rid of randomly generated decks altogether, but that's beside the point.) 11:24:41 wheals: Huh? 11:24:47 Keanan1: I am fairly sure the piety is never worth blind drawing unknown decks 11:24:50 Also the decks Nemelex gives you generally aren't the same type as decks you find in the dungeon. 11:24:56 wheals: What's "every armour item"? 11:25:01 Interesting I *always* draw blind 11:25:19 (I think the Nemelex decks are 1/5 the weight of random decks compared to the mixed types?) 11:25:19 Because I have a good liklihood of knowing what deck I have generated 11:25:20 Grunt: Not most commonly, but they do exist 11:25:26 shields, body, gloves, cloak, helmet, boots 11:25:37 Keanan1: Well, that's definitely not going to be true for much longer, given deck weighting is going away 11:25:58 Well, yes, and in the context of deck weighting going away, removing 'peek at two' makes sense. 11:26:04 wheals: Ah right. Well I mostly meant stuff like dragon armours. 11:26:15 Grunt: Also how do you draw from these 'abstract' decks outside of abilities? 11:26:23 I just was more trying to provide a 'why this has been there in the past' 11:26:31 Grunt: Considering you can draw without using mp by wielding and this is often sensible to do 11:26:43 Medar: dragon armours are usually the most orcish armours! since you (an orc) made them yourself! 11:26:53 Hah. 11:26:55 but yes, for all armour types 11:27:12 Are decks older than Neme or were they introduced together? 11:27:21 Nem is ancient 11:27:39 (That's basically a yes) 11:28:14 (Nem is pre 2006) 11:28:25 Quite a lot older than that, I think! 11:28:36 That's just as old as I have records for :) 11:28:55 wheals: Might be more flavourful and interesting it if the bonus was only for metal armour for example. 11:28:59 (Like my records go only as far back as git) 11:28:59 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:02 But I'm not even sure how it used to work. 11:29:03 What I had in mind was being able to use Draw One from the virtual decks without an MP cost (if the wield thing is an issue, only have it negate the MP cost if you're empty-handed?). 11:29:16 though if buppy's god goes in that'd step on its toes 11:29:24 also, orcish leather and robes are quite common 11:29:25 True. 11:29:40 Grunt: And how do you select these virtual decks as opposed to a real one? 11:29:51 Yeah, it would be different from status quo. 11:29:54 (What is supposed to be the advantage of these virtual decks aside from saving just a couple inventory slots, anyway?) 11:30:01 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:17 gotta go 11:30:17 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:18 Since I don't think many slots will be taken up by normal decks if they can expand 11:30:32 the main reason i wield decks with nem is it's much less annoying to press 'v' several times than 'aat' or whatever 11:30:38 Yes, also that! 11:31:11 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: isn't it advantageous, if you do have inv space, drop decks so you get multiple decks instead of one big one? 11:31:17 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: since you have more choices of top card 11:31:25 <|amethyst> s/drop/to drop/ 11:31:34 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:50 |amethyst: Well, that's an argument to just not auto-merge decks and let players do that themselves, maybe 11:32:13 Merging decks does seem advantageous in some circumstances at lesat 11:32:29 Well, in most circumstnaces there is no advantage of having multiple decks unless one is stacked or ID'd 11:32:45 Since while their top cards are different, you have no way of knowing which is better at any given moment 11:32:49 So they may as well be the same 11:33:21 <|amethyst> also, merged decks don't necessarily have to be of one of the existing types 11:33:29 What do you mean? 11:33:31 <|amethyst> each deck item has a list of cards 11:33:35 deck of mergers 11:33:40 (deck of hostile takeovers) 11:33:50 Well, I think it would be a lot less confusing if you could only merge decks of the same type 11:34:00 Even if the code supports arbitrary mergers 11:34:00 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: what about destruction and war? 11:34:16 <|amethyst> (for example) 11:34:24 Does War fully include Destruction in its normal set? 11:34:33 If stack five didn't waste the rest of the deck, but splitted it, that would be one reason less to not merge. 11:34:40 no. I need to stop. dpeg convinced me to add one thing to the wiki like 10 hours ago and I haven't left. o_o; 11:34:45 (sorry I didn't read all of the backlog) 11:34:59 -!- ldf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:16 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: yes, it's a completely random mix of six different decks 11:35:21 stack five is kind of problematic for merging decks in general ... you'd want to keep decks separate so you can stack as many as possible 11:35:31 if you merge 2 decks of escape you lose more cards when you stack 11:35:43 crate: Well, the idea was that Stack Five would split cards off into a new deck instead of fully discarding the old deck 11:35:47 oh 11:35:57 And maybe just penalize you X cards (or just cost more piety or something) 11:36:04 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: when initialising, for each card, it picks one of (destruction, enchantments, battle, summoning, transport, emergency), then picks a random card from that "deck" 11:36:07 That does sound fine. 11:36:10 Because yeah, otherwise you'd want to keep them more seperate 11:36:21 And it shouldn't be optimal to voluntarily increase your inventory management burden 11:36:28 By that degree, anyway 11:36:28 I don't like LOSING cards in general as they are rare enough. Piety costs seem better 11:36:29 So the only reason not to auto-merge would be ?id ? 11:36:56 |amethyst: One thing to consider is that even if merging destruction in wouldn't change the possible cards in it, it would affect the distribution a lot 11:37:17 You might end up with a War deck that you shuffled 3 or 4 destructions into and thus was almost completely destruction 11:37:24 And a lot of players don't KNOW that destruction is fully contained in war 11:37:35 03gammafunk02 07* 0.14-a0-2975-g726ad26: Add a monster check to prevent a crash due to grand avatar. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=726ad2605391 11:37:35 <|amethyst> yeah 11:37:50 Grunt: that actually was your code >_> 11:38:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:38:23 <|amethyst> I was thinking to name the merged deck something different, but then either the game or the player has to inscribe them and that gets unwieldy 11:38:36 gammafunk: rip 11:39:03 Hrm, ask the reporter if he can test the save in the new version? 11:39:22 We'll need the new version to be available first :) 11:39:44 Grunt: Well, he has a windows build, so I assume he built it himself 11:39:48 Also he's unlikely to reproduce the exact circumstances that led to the crash; probably the battle will pan out differently. 11:39:49 probably a bad assumption, though 11:40:12 Yeah I guess he's more likely to be using a nightly build 11:40:22 Windows users always compiling everything... 11:40:33 0.14-a0-2542-g51e44bb 11:40:37 ...wow, that's *old*. 11:41:00 all this talk about decks 11:41:06 * dpeg feels out of the loop 11:41:08 |amethyst: Yeah, I think the potential space-savings in some situations are not worth the various complications here 11:41:13 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:41:14 oh yeah, pretty old 11:41:25 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:41:30 * Grunt decks out dpeg. 11:41:38 I'll leave a note that it's probably fixed in trunk 11:41:55 and point him to the nightly page (when that gets updated) 11:42:14 Make Nemelex deny iding decks (no peeking!) and auto merge... 11:42:41 Why deny IDing them? 11:42:54 oh, actually, are saves made in windows tied to windows, or can I load those in my linux build? 11:42:54 Since he's already fine with you peeking in multiple ways via abilities 11:43:00 Because otherwise you might not want to merge them. 11:43:11 gammafunk: I *think* you can load them fine? 11:43:20 I'll try it 11:43:26 I'm such a fool in general. 11:43:40 gf: saves are platform-independant 11:43:41 *makes a holy sign in front of his computer for protection* 11:44:17 Medar: I don't think there's enough ?ID floating around for people to realistically check the top card of more than a tiny portion of the decks they're gifted 11:44:31 wow, ultra slow download of this 2mb file from mantis, here 11:45:00 DO: Depends on how long you play, in a 3-rune game probably not, extended you get extra ones that you don't need for anything else 11:45:04 Am I running a 56k modem or something all of a sudden 11:46:07 Deep inside I feel that decks and the god are a blind alley. :* 11:46:22 Yeah, probably not too many depending on your luck, but it's certainly doable. 11:46:41 (At one time in one game I had about 10 decks in my inventory with top cards ID'd, and maybe about 3 of those were from stacks, and I had a pile of 2-3 ?ID, but that was at the end of a 15-rune game) 11:47:03 Medar: Well, if there was auto-merge, how could a person actively deny it in the hope of gaining this small advantage aside from simply never carrying certain deck types at all? (In which case you can't even use them) 11:48:01 huh,the save loads, but there's a monster nearby that's just a "ghost" 11:48:14 That's a critter that's been removed 11:48:15 That's an AXED_MON, I'm fairly sure? 11:48:24 ah, ok 11:48:26 %git HEAD^{/Ghostify} 11:48:27 07kilobyte02 * 0.12-a0-2230-g8afd272: Ghostify any axed monsters. 10(1 year, 1 month ago, 1 file, 12+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8afd272e8701 11:48:33 (Do we really need this behaviour?) 11:48:35 not sure what that would be 11:48:41 oh 11:48:52 no, I must be tired, I have no idea 11:49:02 something that was in pan, that got removed? 11:49:08 Lemures? 11:49:25 I don't think lemures spawn randomly in Pan any longer? 11:49:26 <|amethyst> Rotting Devil 11:49:32 That would be more likely :) 11:49:33 Ah, those do 11:49:37 DracoOmega: Yeah, not carrying for a while is the way to do it. But it isn't that crazy, you get decks often, you can control which ones you get and you can decide to do it in easier part of the game. 11:49:45 Grunt: I think someone else asked exactly this question. Or maybe you did before? 11:49:56 (well, obviously lemures don't; I mean that the list hasn't had them for a while before they were removed.) 11:50:02 dpeg: I think elliptic asked that question last :) 11:50:11 Medar: You won't be able to control which you get for much longer, with the removal of deck weighting that seems immenant 11:50:22 ah :) then maybe revert it? 11:50:41 well, save not helpful I guess, I'll resolve it saying it should be fixed 11:50:48 (and point him to the nightly page) 11:51:30 Medar: If someone wants to drop all their wonders decks to that they can then ID the top card of new wonders decks... I am not sure that is even advantageous enough to need to an another mechanic to stop? 11:51:53 DracoOmega: Oh, ok. Maybe this is not a practical issue then. Not enough to stop these improvements anyway. 11:51:59 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:01 <|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6645 might be one reason 11:52:17 <|amethyst> for turning them into ghosts 11:52:40 <|amethyst> especially considering that bug was closed as "no change required" one day before that commit 11:53:01 DracoOmega: Well, wonders is not a good candidate. I'm more thinking about dropping all escape decks at some point, to be able to find Tomb cards for example. 11:53:04 <|amethyst> s/might be/might have been/ 11:53:31 Grunt: that was MarvinPA, I don't have much feeling about ghostification myself (is just removing the monster possible? that seems like it would be better probably...) 11:53:32 Medar: Well, dropping all escape decks does seem to deny you any escapes in the meantime ^^; 11:53:44 elliptic: oh, I get the two of you confused a lot <_< 11:53:53 <|amethyst> elliptic: removing the monster is easy to do wrong of course 11:54:04 If we could do it right, that would be the best solution IMO. 11:54:10 DracoOmega: Unless you are Fo and none of the other cards really do anything :P (ok, swiftness) 11:54:26 Also, couldn't you just Stack Five in this system to split stuff off? 11:54:31 <|amethyst> KILL_RESET maybe, but we don't want to destroy its inventory 11:54:36 Which seems better at finding Tomb 11:56:03 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:57 I'm actually tempted to try coding up an experimental version of some of these ideas. But probably I have enough stuff I'm still trying to do >.> 12:01:39 Would be nice. 12:01:41 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:01:53 |amethyst: Did you see my second patch? 12:03:31 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:40 <|amethyst> Medar: and that would use eval for versions before the patch because they don't send the version? 12:04:55 <|amethyst> s/the patch/that commit/ 12:05:48 <|amethyst> oh 12:05:54 |amethyst: No. Everything sends version. 12:05:57 <|amethyst> only if they didn't have WEBDIR I guess 12:06:11 <|amethyst> what's the change in tileweb.cc about then? 12:06:58 It's to send the version nicely. There is hacky code to get version from binaries without that bit. 12:07:01 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:07:06 <|amethyst> aha 12:07:16 And more importantly from old versions where version wasn't send even with WEBDIR set. 12:07:37 Well, wasn't send in that message. 12:08:52 dpeg I thought you said you'd comment on...how this whole thing started (the page you suggested I create in the wiki that got me staying here all day; heh) 12:09:09 <|amethyst> no time to try it out now, sadly... I'd say either commit it, or revert the eval change now and commit that in 0.15-a0 12:09:22 <|amethyst> well, after some testing of course :) 12:09:47 DracoOmega, remember we're trying to get 0.14 ready in the near future <_<; 12:09:48 <|amethyst> s/that/this/ 12:10:00 Grunt: I'm aware. I am working on that! 12:10:20 I did say 'I already have enough stuff to do' :P 12:10:35 Just making sure you don't get too tempted to get sidetracked! >_> 12:10:45 <|amethyst> Official webtiles server stuff doesn't really care much about release schedule though, since it's always trunk; but users with their own webtiles server might use stable 12:11:14 <|amethyst> OTOH the latter folks are much less likely to be supporting old versions 12:11:51 Right. 12:12:05 -!- Bcadren has left ##crawl-dev 12:12:32 I think I'll revert the eval change for now, and push this once I have time to test some more. 12:12:38 -!- Ataraxzy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:42 Grunt: I still have your commit importet from glaciate-testing for what's now reduced to ghost casting of dazzling spray that confuses the player 12:13:56 It's based on XL, do you think that's a better choice than MR? 12:14:10 That's how it works against monster. 12:14:12 *monsters 12:15:42 Yeah, I suppose it's never going to end up in the hands of e.g. a pan lord, so having it almost never trigger confusion at high XL is a non-issue 12:16:25 I'm turning your commit into a Horrible Thing, at least in terms of the commit message 12:17:23 ...okay, I want a couple of trustworthy people to make sure this won't break things horribly (I've gone over the before and after lists with current saves and I'm 99% sure they match, but still): 12:17:27 http://sprunge.us/ZBiO 12:20:52 * gammafunk admires how he wisely handled his monster enum that way when he created it... 12:21:45 -!- Ququman has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:53 Grunt: Run it through cpp? :) 12:21:58 gammafunk feels clever. 12:23:06 03Medar02 07* 0.14-a0-2976-gcf4d6bf: Don't use JSON.parse, because old versions send invalid JSON. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cf4d6bf9d7c6 12:23:07 Medar: That's exactly how I compared them :b 12:23:10 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2974-g15aa933 (34) 12:24:43 -!- Bcadren has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:07 Well, if someone finds a mistake in this between now and rebuild time this evening, so be it... 12:25:58 I guess I should check that both versions of this compile properly before I push it >_> 12:26:22 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26:48 Well, if it doesn't compile then saves won't break. 12:26:56 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 12:27:15 Very true! <_< 12:27:32 If it's not hard to batch create a lot of miniRaces with minor differences, perhaps the answer to the Draconian issue would be to create -WAY TOO MANY- and see which of those players like? 12:28:01 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:54 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 27.0.1/20140222044143]] 12:29:14 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:30:23 ...heh, it's a good thing I'm checking TAG_MAJOR_VERSION 35 before this; issues are happening :) 12:30:29 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:01 Fix them all, then accidentally commit with 35 set. 12:32:13 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:43 -!- TeshiAlair has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:33:00 * Grunt gestures. Grunt conjures a mighty blast of ice! The great icy blast engulfs Medar! 12:36:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:37:25 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:56 my frankenstein grunt commit did not compile, requires more surgery 12:38:08 !send gammafunk lightning bolts 12:38:08 Sending lightning bolts to gammafunk. 12:38:08 * gammafunk takes out his cleaver... 12:40:24 -!- rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:40:39 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:42:50 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:43:09 -!- Yermak has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:43:19 03Medar02 07* 0.14-a0-2977-g5b8a3b7: Don't disable compression on Opera. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5b8a3b7716f7 12:47:32 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:58 -!- Tedronai has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:45 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:49 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:18 Grunt: my favorite thing is that you kept the // replacing the guardian robot -- bwr comment <3 12:54:03 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 12:57:07 hrm, can one make a player ghost in wizard mode/ 12:57:08 ? 12:57:13 Sure! 12:57:48 -!- ivan`` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:49 PleasingFungus (L22 MfIE) ERROR in 'dungeon.cc' at line 5690: unknown shop type (Depths:4) 12:58:07 omnirizon: (self-SoB will always stop if you get below 10% max hps, or if you get to max mp, or if you get to 'hungry') 12:58:08 I mean, without just killing myself? 12:58:45 ...lol 12:59:14 omnirizon: (Err, not 10% max hps, 10% current hps) 12:59:14 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:59:23 !crashlog PleasingFungus 12:59:24 1. PleasingFungus, XL22 MfIE, T:89194 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/PleasingFungus/crash-PleasingFungus-20140305-185748.txt 12:59:36 -!- Eronarn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:38 -!- atrodo has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:52 %git :/shop 13:00:22 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-2873-ge4bcf1a: Merge wand and gadget shops (and allow them to occasionally have rods). 10(11 days ago, 12 files, 43+ 38-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e4bcf1a21e40 13:00:22 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:22 -!- ayutzia has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:00:32 Yes, that's probably my fault <_< 13:05:00 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:10 * Grunt makes a few more adjustments to a couple of things while he's working on this (the last of which is the entire reason he's poking at this anyway)... 13:13:39 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2978-g1a26aba: Rearrange monster enums when TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 34. 10(64 minutes ago, 1 file, 128+ 30-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1a26aba65bcf 13:13:39 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2979-g39441b9: Fix up some TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 34 issues. 10(23 minutes ago, 10 files, 36+ 13-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=39441b969f79 13:13:39 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2980-g3517332: Move Depths branch enum on TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 34. 10(14 minutes ago, 2 files, 25+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3517332a41d1 13:13:39 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2981-g97a2a5a: Add some more room for altar enums on TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 34. 10(11 minutes ago, 2 files, 13+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=97a2a5a1ae52 13:14:22 219 commits to go? <_< 13:16:47 Grunt: probably almost all of those tag_major_version problems were my fault, between djinn and forest 13:16:59 FR: a new unique: Giant Orange Brian, a deluded human who has painted himself orange and hangs out with a pack of giant orange brains 13:17:23 clearly he's a hill giant 13:17:24 altar enums <3 13:17:29 == Grunt 13:17:33 wheals: at least one of them was my fault :) 13:17:37 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:38 dpeg: I'm not Chei! 13:17:45 pity that :) 13:17:50 (if anything I'm probably closer to Dith, secretly controlling everything from the shadows) 13:17:55 Grunt: no, but you are coerceable to Chei 13:17:59 xom 13:18:06 dpeg. :P 13:18:08 this is PHP, right? 13:18:37 Bcadren: will comment tonight, don't worry. These gods are patient... some of them slumbering for years. 13:18:38 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2912-gfc243dd: Mute low hp warnings from poison damage if not lethally poisoned 10(47 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fc243ddf7117 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2913-g1c86078: Increase poison damage inflicted by most sources, reduce rate of damage 10(42 minutes ago, 6 files, 14+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1c86078108ff 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2914-gd2f8cdc: Adjust thresholds for various poison damage messages downward 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d2f8cdcd3625 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2915-g223c1d8: Rescale Ignite Poison versus players to new poison system 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=223c1d80f411 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2916-g223a3a3: Refactor some melee poison checks 10(10 minutes ago, 2 files, 33+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=223a3a3bda80 13:18:48 03DracoOmega02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2917-gddaa17a: Raise default value for runrest_ignore_poison 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ddaa17a85a0e 13:18:49 - MONS_LAST_BASE_DEMONSPAWN = MONS_LAST_BASE_DEMONSPAWN, 13:18:55 Bcadren: btw, you should mention the god (and its wiki page) again once you are happy with it 13:18:59 how did that happen! 13:19:05 wheals: me again! 13:19:23 wheals: I'm guessing a mass find-and-replace! 13:20:19 I think deterministic_poison is pretty playable at the moment, if anyone else wants to have a look. (I have played a few real games myself, or most of them, adjusting some damage values as I encountered them, though obviously not finalized) 13:20:56 I'll probably go through it later. 13:20:58 But first, lunch! 13:21:02 * Grunt wanders off. 13:21:18 DracoOmega: does poison do fixed damage in that branch? 13:21:41 dpeg me being here causes me to constantly think of new ideas and things to edit...which is a major time sink for me...I just have a ton of half-baked ideas that need more work, etc. 13:21:59 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:59 Bcadren: start implementing them!! 13:22:00 Wensley: Well, 'fixed' in the sense after it is applied. The amount that is applied is still random on application. But like, you can see how much of your health bar is poisoned, and resting it off is more trivial (one 5 should do, assuming nothing else is going on) 13:22:11 neat 13:22:47 removes a tiny bit of drama but not a big deal if it ends up being less annoying 13:22:56 fr: deterministic win calculation for every move 13:23:01 Well, it also makes the damage more relevant later in the game than it used to be 13:23:08 -!- asdftest has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:23:12 Since the poison damage inflicted by things scales 13:23:24 Bcadren: I know the pain :) 13:23:24 (And acts faster with more serious poisoning) 13:24:06 Wensley: writing them up solves the issue for me (and coding is replaced by 'begging someone to implement the damn thing') 13:24:27 Wensley: As for drama, it turns out there is still one source of it here. If you are fatally poisoned, you MIGHT regenerate enough hp in the process to not die from it, and you can't actually know this immediately :P 13:24:32 FR: nondeterministic poison: every time that poison procs, require the user to mash the keyboard to generate entropy to determine if they will die 13:24:57 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:00 Which is sort of comparable to waiting out potentially-lethal poison currently 13:25:09 But it should be a lot more seemless in regular affairs 13:25:19 fr: predestinated poison, when you join a god the god chooses how much poison you'll get in the game 13:25:29 Wensley the one I'm currently thinking about would be huge to implement and require much discussion before relevant. It's spell schools. Splitting Alchemy off from transmutations and buffing both so they have enough spells [Alchemy including ignite poison, alistair's etc. and Transmutations keeping Blade Hands, etc.] Similarly I'm loving on the idea of a Demonology spell school [Turn Summon Imp into Demonology/Summoning; add player a 13:26:56 Bcadren: are you eronarn 13:27:23 Why did he do the same thing? 13:27:35 -!- schistosomatic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:35 he was certainly talking about alchemy for a long time 13:27:41 might have made a wiki page about it 13:27:51 this is also the guy who implemented octopodes and lava orcs 13:27:56 so the bottom line is 13:28:06 just implement a thing and the devs will probably be too polite to say no 13:28:16 how else do you think I got suppression moths into the game! 13:28:31 they had to remove them while I wasn't looking, so as to not hurt my feelings 13:28:34 If you mean this: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:propose:alchemy ...VERY different thing. 13:30:06 Alchemy here is changing things in your environment into other things...situationally powerful spells that are useless to weak other times. (like Ignite Poison being very PWN in the swamp when there are a lot of poisonous corpses already around, but useless for more than half the game) 13:33:33 a random idea for hands slot that isn't claws: acid hands 13:33:42 obviously the acid won't let you wear gloves 13:34:46 it could bypass AC or something, if it didn't do claws damage it could be a bit differentiated 13:35:28 If it corrodes away any gloves, how are you holding your weapon? ^^; 13:35:47 very good hilts on them 13:36:29 -!- jmbto has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 13:36:42 wheals: magma fists 13:36:50 sticky flames anything that you hit 13:37:35 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:45 -!- AlphaQ_ is now known as AlphaQ 13:37:49 wait are these spells or mutations 13:38:32 mutations, thinking of more interesting monstrous ideas 13:39:38 nimble fingers: chance to steal an opponent's weapon while attacking unarmed 13:39:59 shadow hands: cannot hold anything at all, but it still sounds really cool 13:40:02 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:09 DracoOmega: an obscure bit of crawl lore is the orign of all the hilts in the dungeon, which are either of divine origin or crafted by the ancient tribe of Movntin Dvrvs 13:40:31 all existing weapons are blades/cudgels affixed to these original hilts 13:40:32 Even the hilts on clubs? :P 13:40:37 giant palm: able to wield 2h weapons with one hand 13:40:53 Wensley: what is this, a mutation for ants? 13:41:15 extra fingers: great for tickling 13:41:23 tickle opponents into submission 13:41:28 -!- edhm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:29 could give you af_klown 13:42:06 tongue palms: able to taste anything that you touch 13:43:22 bony hand plates: free SH 13:43:40 tentacles: constrict enemies 13:43:52 gecko fingers: cling to walls 13:44:18 web shooters: evoke to place webs 13:44:58 (fr: Ensnaring Touch) 13:45:35 rocket fingers: evoke to shoot finger missiles at enemies. ten uses, which replenish gradually once your HP is at max 13:46:07 elasto-arms: reaching unarmed attacks 13:46:31 s/unarmed// 13:46:41 (clearly elasto with a polearm give double reaching10 13:46:43 elasto-fingers 13:48:32 legs for arms: cannot wield weapons, but run faster 13:49:07 (correspondingly there must also be a "arms for legs" mutation that does the opposite) 13:50:15 (can wield extra weapons?????) 13:51:03 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:36 Grunt: not OP, because at that point you become blinkrobin 13:52:13 arms made of snakes: poison bite attack when unarmed fighting 13:52:22 arms made of bees: poison sting attack when unarmed fighting 13:52:39 arms made of ants: increased carrying capacity 13:52:41 bee breath 13:52:54 yellow-and-black draconians 13:52:57 bumbledracs 13:53:54 Bcadren: the alchemy thing was making poison magic into alchemy, and moving some tmut spells into it, to clearer define tmut and to make poison magic more versatile 13:56:34 wings: toggle flying 13:56:43 helicopter rotors: toggle flying and make julienne fries 13:56:55 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 13:57:05 Eronarn interesting; though still different than what I was going for. If Poison was boosted (in my book) Give it some Acid-based spells at higher levels that are basically corroding physical/ignore half of armor. 13:59:03 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:00:57 If you want interesting monsterous that wouldn't be what you'd expect; look to weirder corners of mythology. For example: Yuka-Onna's kiss caused people to freeze to death. An ice elemental non-physical 'bite' slot auxilliary could be interesting. 14:01:23 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:36 yes, it included new acid spells also 14:02:42 acid kraken 14:03:09 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:04:33 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:47 Eronarn PM maybe? I wouldn't want to tie up the channel with this. 14:07:09 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:13 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:14 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:15:58 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 14:17:08 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:08 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:21 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:54 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:43 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 14:28:43 -!- BobBarker has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:20 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: My work is end \(^o^)/] 14:36:44 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:00 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2982-g766350d: Don't masquerade lightning spires as sensed monsters. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=766350d57f34 14:37:21 lightning golems 14:37:42 doh 14:37:52 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:59 Summon Lightning Spires Encircling 14:38:36 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38:45 -!- rast- is now known as rast 14:38:55 (clearly make one or the other ETC_ELECTRICITY) 14:39:11 does anything besides the arc blade use that? 14:39:32 Various other unrands, apparently. 14:39:47 Grunt: Incidentally, I believe there's still a bug where players take reduced damage from static discharge regardless of whether they're the ones CASTING it or not 14:39:55 glaive of the Guard, amulet of the Air, lightning scales 14:39:56 Since I don't recall it being changed since I noticed it 14:40:22 overkill sprint, features nikola with arc blade, amulet of the air, storm bow 14:40:48 Haha 14:41:06 Case BAND_NIKOLA: return MONS_ELECTRIC_GOLEM; 14:41:18 -!- AreBrandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:25 -!- ArentBrandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:26 there's a nikola wizlab somewhere on mantis 14:41:36 (infiniplex wizlab) 14:41:44 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2983-gc1536bb: Don't masquerade lightning spires as electric golems, either. 10(64 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c1536bb78120 14:41:55 that wizlab probably heavily appreciates raiju and shock serpents 14:42:04 ahaha 14:42:13 everyone's favorite wizlab 14:42:44 I didn't say how many there would be! 14:43:15 and surely it's better than having ball lightning hell effects that place ball lightnings on the other side of tornado'd-grates 14:43:24 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:43:29 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:15 -!- maarek has quit [Quit: maarek] 14:44:23 (that band statement made me think more of uniques returning for zot with extreme band members as a combination of a last hurrah of random threats and actually letting zot have more than one unique) 14:44:36 -!- LexAckson_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:44:53 (something about humphrey) 14:45:19 putting gobs in zot vaults did not result in as fun things as I'd liked 14:45:44 need to give them hp:100 14:48:10 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 14:52:58 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2984-gb6a43b4: A couple of Static Discharge fixes related to monster casting. 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 15+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b6a43b45fbb7 14:58:14 Lightning Golems are evil 14:58:28 Clearly make the goblins explode. 14:59:58 -!- TeshiAlair1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:00:44 Lugonu or not Lugonu? Decisions, decisions... 15:01:12 !rng lugonu notlugonu 15:01:12 The RNG chooses: notlugonu. 15:03:16 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:38 oh no, I might die! 15:03:49 Death has come for dpeg... 15:04:09 It's the first time I am in new Abyss. level 3... 15:05:29 phew, I made it, thanks Sequell! 15:05:41 all those wimps who complain about Abyss on the forum 15:11:40 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:14:51 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:38 Grunt: unrandarts? 15:16:48 ??unapropos randarts 15:16:48 unapropos randarts[1/27]: Randarts with contradictory flavour. 15:16:52 ??unapropos randarts[$ 15:16:52 unapropos randarts[27/27]: the +3 fire dragon armour of an ice cave {rF++ rC- SInv Curse} 15:16:55 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:56 (for example) 15:17:03 :) 15:17:41 Btw, I really, really like the new monsters I've seen in Swamp, Snake and Abyss so far! Great stuff! 15:17:53 !send dpeg the elite marksnaga squad 15:17:54 Sending the elite marksnaga squad to dpeg. 15:18:30 I am prepared! 15:18:41 Countless victims have said that!! 15:18:53 I definitely think the new snake monsters both strengthen how the branch plays and also its theme 15:19:08 I like the idea of naga ritualists doing some weird rites until you interrupt the party 15:19:09 * dpeg holds the +7 vampiric bardiche at the ready! 15:19:19 !lm dpeg x=god 15:19:20 7622. [2014-03-05 21:11:22] [god=Okawaru] dpeg the Phalangite (L19 MfFi of Okawaru) killed Aizul on turn 47634. (Snake:1) 15:19:30 speaking of which, would it be good to make them priests or evil or something? 15:19:44 only thing I am not happy with is uncle Oki 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2859-g6dbed81: Reduce Lightning Spire power and spellpower scaling 10(34 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6dbed8153dbf 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2860-g2e12734: Mention the role of creature HD in Forceful Dismissal's description 10(33 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2e1273487fe5 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2861-g77334d6: Fix a typo 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=77334d63dc8b 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2862-gf329965: Don't try to place a second dragon via Dragon's Call if you run out of mp after the first 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f32996510d2b 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2863-g4f851d4: Make wolves and wargs require more spellpower from CCF 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4f851d444391 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2864-g9e83430: Reduce Summon Mana Viper's level to 5 10(14 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9e8343063763 15:28:27 03DracoOmega02 07[summons_adjustments] * 0.14-a0-2865-ge85c075: Let Spellforged Servitors also cast Bolt of Draining 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e85c0752f311 15:29:28 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:28 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:53 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2985-g3a718c0: Dith doesn't hate vorpal hand axes. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3a718c0f03cf 15:39:40 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:39:45 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:41:00 -!- maarek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:12 -!- broilor has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:23 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:13 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:23 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:53:29 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:38 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:03 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:03 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:49 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:39 dpeg: rip 16:01:59 Creative death, though! <_< 16:02:12 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:05:25 creative? 16:05:42 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2986-gd1872aa: De-ACTION_ENERGY ugly things; set their speed properly in ghost.cc. 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d1872aa6dd45 16:05:44 !lg * ktyp=spines ckiller=hell_sentinel 16:05:44 10. dpeg the Phalangite (L21 MfFi of Okawaru), impaled on a Hell Sentinel's spines (summoned by an ancient lich) on Abyss:1 on 2014-03-05 22:01:27, with 312608 points after 57473 turns and 5:00:47. 16:05:49 Grunt: rip 16:05:53 was a lot of fun, I knew I had to die to some imbalanced shit like banishment 16:05:57 rip ugly code i guess 16:05:57 rip 16:06:11 !lg * ktyp=spines s=name 16:06:11 114 games for * (ktyp=spines): 3x firemonkey, 3x nachodelamancha, 2x Psiweapon, 2x qtip, 2x dpeg, 2x CryptoCactus, 2x gregunderscorem, mahrgell, MorganLeah, friendlybee, QuiteATool, icantfindaname, flaco, MaximusCozzius, tychotesla, XLukarX, lessens, pwnmonkey, Malachi, Yllodra, SamB, babaqaq, Armakuni, Antem, Vinland, Apol, Revolution, domi, thfral, phyrexian231, beautifulutena1111, Elbo, zardo, ... 16:06:16 (just joking, I don't mind of course) 16:06:16 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:18 !lg * ktyp=spines ckiller=hell_sentinel s=name 16:06:18 10 games for * (ktyp=spines ckiller=hell_sentinel): jeanjacques, Nordon, phyrexian231, Bodrick, Psiweapon, Roshnak, zardo, Mistral, Zapata, dpeg 16:06:29 !lg dpeg ktyp=spines 1 16:06:30 1/2. dpeg the Covert (L10 OpAs of Trog), impaled on a porcupine's spines on Lair:1 on 2013-10-23 16:57:35, with 6344 points after 11427 turns and 0:37:31. 16:06:45 !lg * ktyp=spines s=ckiller 16:06:46 114 games for * (ktyp=spines): 97x a porcupine, 10x a Hell Sentinel, 2x a glowing shapeshifter, 2x a shapeshifter, a briar patch, Crazy Yiuf, Sigmund 16:07:03 !send wheals the Hell Sentinel shaped Serpent of Hell 16:07:04 Sending the Hell Sentinel shaped Serpent of Hell to wheals. 16:07:21 * wheals turns into the Serpent of Hell! 16:07:27 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:30 * wheals gates himself to Pandemonium! 16:11:05 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:15 -!- rast- is now known as rast 16:11:18 -!- _miek_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:18 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:17:11 btw, does the game explain that chance for Abyss exit increases with depth? 16:17:50 • Descending deeper in the Abyss will increase the chance of finding an exit 16:17:50 out, but also increase the danger you face. 16:17:51 I thought that was removed 16:17:53 in the FAQ 16:18:16 wait no I'm thinking of stairs chance 16:18:19 could also be in the xv for abyssal stair 16:18:58 ok 16:19:08 I think the FAQ really should be shortened, if you want people to read it you don't want a lot of entries 16:19:27 wheals: when jpeg and I started it, it was short :) 16:19:29 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:25 Isn't the FAQ horribly out of date? Or was that fixed? 16:20:40 it probably is horribly out of date 16:20:43 some things have been updated 16:21:14 We need a person in charge for the FAQ. 16:21:17 * dpeg ducks 16:24:37 A hill orc, ogre or troll Fighter is a good bet. Elves are quite fragile, 16:24:37 humans are pretty average at everything, and the weirder species are mostly 16:24:37 too tricky for beginning players. Finally, you may be given a choice of 16:24:37 weapons. I suggest an axe (axes are fun). 16:24:52 not the best advice, maybe, but it's tradition! 16:24:58 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:25:22 Well, axes are amusingly a better beginner weapon choice now than they were when that was written 16:25:28 heh, true 16:25:40 fun with cleaving 16:25:57 Yes 16:26:03 Cleaving is also especially strong if your positioning is bad 16:26:12 (And almost every beginner's positioning is very bad :P) 16:26:16 the entry on tactics is still very true 16:26:25 * Keanan1 cleaves fun into tiny bits! 16:26:28 -!- stickyfingers has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:05 btw, those lines were probably written by Linley 16:27:08 !tell |amethyst A monster patch: http://sprunge.us/eKCR 16:27:08 Grunt: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 16:27:12 that's what the header says 16:27:16 thus, they are sacrosanct and protected 16:27:19 Haha 16:27:23 of course! 16:28:26 s and v-y of the FAQ could be merged, or moved into the manual in some way 16:32:15 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:23 * dpeg nominates wheals to be the person in charge! 16:32:40 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:02 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:13 bah, it's html 16:33:41 i need to change the man page too, it claims the game is fun 16:35:09 wheals: now you sound like ... someone else, on valium 16:36:02 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:34 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:52 ...hm, this shops bug existed before I did any shop type changes. 16:40:34 (And it only ever happens with grated_community_mu, and specifically the armour shop.) 16:40:48 broken shops? smash the windows, call the cops! 16:40:54 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:57 hrm, regarding antannae sensing invisible monsters in los, any thoughts on how that should work? 16:41:17 Would we show the monsters true position every turn via invis indicator? 16:41:50 Or just give them a much higher chance of failing the stealth check (and hence more likely to get an indicator each turn) 16:42:19 If you can sense their exact position when out of los, you should be able to in los as well 16:42:24 -!- popsofctown has quit [] 16:42:25 yeah 16:42:54 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:05 But what if it's trying extra hard to be invisible when it sees the player :p 16:48:28 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:48:49 -!- Mad_Wack has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:49:37 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:49 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:38 -!- tsn has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:52 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:07 ...ha, that's a really obscure bug if I've ever seen one. 16:53:39 -!- tsn has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:01 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:22 What? 16:56:36 The shop bug I've been tracking down. 16:56:47 I'm just readying a couple of commits to address it. 16:56:59 Oh, I wonder if this is related to why place-population crashes sometimes due to that vault 16:57:09 Probably! 16:57:14 I just disabled the vault while running Depths >.> 16:57:38 i remember seeing a crash here when someone had the vault 16:57:41 I thought it was some weird interaction with thes script or something 16:57:43 -!- buki has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:18 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:37 -!- ChongLi_ is now known as ChongLi 17:04:01 -!- sunderland has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:17 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04:38 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2987-g3526174: Handle errors in shop specs with item lists a bit more gracefully. 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=352617427b24 17:04:38 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2988-ge7db1d4: Allow a legendary smithy to space out. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e7db1d4a9bfa 17:04:38 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2989-gae9c01e: Improve an error message. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ae9c01e6bc75 17:04:38 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:05:02 (That middle commit is the direct cause of the bug.) 17:05:08 s/is/fixes/ 17:05:28 I am not sure if the current default of listing stocks for Ctrl-F "shop" is really better than the list of shops. 17:05:29 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 17:08:18 it wasn't quite intended, more a side-effect of showing all entries of all stacks by default 17:08:24 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:43 zzz 17:09:05 -!- Ataraxzy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:46 Speaking of shops, I spacing of the prices really ought to not be so far away from the names of the items if you're on a big screen 17:09:54 And it wasn't until 0.13 or something 17:10:04 Makes it hard to parse quickly 17:10:11 (I think I meant to fix that at one point) 17:12:18 wheals: any chance to get it back? 17:12:36 with few shops it is alright but later on it's a mess 17:12:44 it would be simple to revert it, but then you 17:12:51 'd have all stacks be a bit annoying 17:12:58 I want a special case for "shop 17:13:02 could try that 17:13:09 or for all items in shop 17:13:11 s 17:13:22 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:37 i haven't actually looked at the code, i'll !tell chrisoelmueller about it 17:13:56 I wonder if he's still up to coding stuff. 17:14:55 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:16:48 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19:04 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-2986-gd1872aa (34) 17:19:18 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:44 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:18 _Deactivating autopickup; reactivate with Ctrl-A. 17:21:36 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:40 hrm, you get then when waking up something you already know about in los due to the antennae 17:21:53 I suppose that's fine? 17:21:54 -!- _fred has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:22:16 -!- Laraso has quit [Quit: Laraso falls through a shaft! The shaft crumbles and collapses.] 17:25:14 is there much server prep required for the tournament? 17:25:30 johnstein: you'll need to get a 0.14 branch set up, but other than that no, AFAIK. 17:25:43 ah yea 17:26:52 any estimate on when that will happen? feels like end of march 17:26:53 -!- notcluie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:29:48 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:53 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:17 -!- SurpriseTRex has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:36:34 "When we're ready"? <_< 17:37:18 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:12 -!- Crehl has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:52:52 -!- Bcadren has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53:41 ??is_cdo_down 17:53:42 is cdo down[1/1]: http://i.imgur.com/eKJ3cnw.jpg 17:53:46 johnstein: ^ 17:54:17 i won't do special casing on ctrl-f input containing "shop", no 17:54:18 ChrisOelmueller: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:54:33 DracoOmega: I'm poking at determinic_poison and I have but one objection: 17:54:48 "The poison has left your system" is a terrible message and should be replaced with something else. 17:54:51 >_> 17:55:13 "the poison has departed your system"? 17:55:20 and players that are more likely to not know about - key also happen to be the ones that don't have as many shops in their game i guess 17:55:23 * Grunt gestures. The poison arrow hits wheals! 17:55:23 The poison is always right"? 17:55:42 "the poison has left the building" 17:56:42 Ah, good old bikeshedding :P 17:56:45 Did you have a suggestion? 17:57:00 We could go back to "You feel better", though that overlaps with curing, or "You feel healthier", though that overlaps with a couple of mutations. 17:57:06 Or something as simple as "You are no longer poisoned." 17:57:13 +1 17:57:15 That last one sounds fine 17:57:24 "You feel better" just felt so nonspecific to me 17:58:06 I have a bunch of minor objections, I wonder if I get any replies on c-r-d. 17:58:09 -!- hephaestus_rg has quit [Quit: hephaestus_rg] 17:58:43 A bunch of minor objections? 17:58:54 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:59:39 yes, for example I am not happy about the colour change for un/recommended combinations 17:59:49 the constrast is very low, I compared with 0.12 18:00:04 We've noticed that; we just haven't come up with a better idea yet :) 18:00:05 and I think that's worse because it makes the second a lot more intimidating than it has to be 18:00:21 DracoOmega, one last thing: lethal poison doesn't show up as darkred, and I think it's supposed to. 18:00:27 dpeg: Oh, I thought you meant about the deterministic poison branch :P 18:00:34 as the protector of the unknown newbie, I put it upon myself to complain about this :) 18:00:42 DracoOmega: no, that is alright :) 18:00:52 I said "minor". 18:00:53 Grunt: It is supposed to, yes 18:01:00 -!- Foamed has quit [Quit: Heading to bed.] 18:01:46 I can see at least three different ways to fix it... 18:02:06 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:17 "You feel better" is also the vampirism effect trigger. 18:02:18 Probably the one I'd do is adjust _bad_ench_colour to use >= instead of > (the only thing that uses it in the odd fashion is glow, and that can be adjusted easily). 18:02:30 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 18:03:16 Oh, I guess I just assumed that is what it meant 18:03:18 ...well, I guess we'd need to bump the rot case up too for consistentcy. 18:03:24 s/tcy/cy/ 18:03:40 And the two colors look similar enough to me (at least in tiles) that I didn't obviously notice it wasn't working, I guess >.> 18:04:40 http://sprunge.us/MKKd 18:04:47 Like so. 18:04:49 (brb) 18:05:13 -!- notcluie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05:44 thanks Grunt /gammafunk. I was asking since I'm on vacation for two weeks and wasn't sure if it was likely that I would have to try to make the server updates on CBRO via my phone or if it were more likely that it would happen after I got back home 18:06:19 Well, it's certainly not going to be tourney time in two weeks 18:06:26 I don't have as much time to check irc to stay in the loop 18:06:57 johnstein: forever, or just now? 18:07:12 thanks DracoOmega. that's basically what I was looking for 18:07:12 Grunt: Looks fine enough to me 18:07:29 dpeg: not forever. just during vacation 18:07:32 I expect that, realistically, the tournament won't be for at least a month, but definitely not 2 weeks 18:07:43 johnstein: phew :) 18:07:43 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:11 grunt suggested release (and thus tourney) at beginning of april on CRD 18:08:17 being a server admin is too much fun to quit 18:08:22 why does a Crypt entry vault have a curse skull 18:08:29 all the power and glory! 18:08:41 i don't hate them the way others do but it seems bad for v:3 18:08:48 elliptic: sounds good, like a joke 18:08:55 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:09:00 not sure he meant april 1 release date exactly :P 18:09:20 <|amethyst> We could have a "release" on april 1 and do the real one later 18:09:20 |amethyst: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:09:26 <|amethyst> just repackage crawl 4.1 18:09:31 Hahaha 18:09:32 |amethyst: have you seen my nostalgia branch yet? 18:09:49 (I should rebase that and show you it; I hope to make it an experimental branch on 1 April...) 18:09:53 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:54 <|amethyst> Grunt: saw but didn't play 18:10:11 <|amethyst> and probably an older version 18:10:48 How many patches were in the version you saw >_> 18:11:01 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:17 <|amethyst> don't remember 18:11:25 <|amethyst> It definitely had elves & dwarves 18:11:31 <|amethyst> I don't recall what other stuff 18:11:44 sounds like current trunk IMO 18:11:52 1learn add trunk 18:11:57 <|amethyst> I mean, all the elves and dwarves :P 18:11:57 Stalkers 18:12:02 <|amethyst> yeah 18:12:03 perhaps it has five elves and three dwarves? 18:12:11 Basil: trunk has those too... 18:12:22 Vine stalker stalkers 18:12:25 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:26 mm 18:12:30 How exciting 18:12:33 dpeg: it does! 18:12:40 -!- rast- has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:12:45 * Grunt wanders off to rebase the patch. 18:13:46 Grunt: sounds like some nice necrophiliac fun! 18:14:00 1learn add the past 18:14:07 ??the past 18:14:07 the past[1/1]: Now get off my lawn! 18:15:10 03Grunt02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2918-gcd76fd7: Show lethal poisoning in dark red properly. 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cd76fd7d756c 18:15:10 03Grunt02 07[deterministic_poison] * 0.14-a0-2919-g6b0d928: Change the end of poison message to "You are no longer poisoned." 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6b0d9281c31f 18:16:58 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:28 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:45 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: btw, experimental branches don't rebuild automatically 18:21:09 I wonder if I could use MF_WAS_IN_VIEW instead of adding a new monster property... 18:21:51 ...okay, let's see if this biulds. 18:21:53 *builds 18:21:58 (wow, failure to type tonight) 18:22:00 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: should I (or you) trigger a rebuild of summons_adjustments for your push a few hours ago 18:22:04 <|amethyst> ? 18:22:40 I was considering if there was other stuff I wanted to do first, then got sleepy ^^; 18:23:03 <|amethyst> I ask because I'm about to build smithgod too, and there is just one lock 18:23:29 <|amethyst> I'll do them both 18:23:55 http://sprunge.us/EgeZ 18:24:01 ...the latest rebase of the nostalgia branch <_< 18:24:13 Sure 18:24:24 why isn't wiglaf renamed wayne! 18:25:02 Remove Trowel portal cap 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2793-g478e4d2: Remove a reference to Igni rF+ rC- 10(23 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=478e4d252bb8 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2794-g361f170: Fix rng bugs in artefactize weapon. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 11+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=361f170986f4 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2795-gd82b00c: Fix monsters dropping flaming alt weapons. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 6+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d82b00cc63d2 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2796-g486d0ec: Improve the messages of Igni abilities. 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=486d0ecd52a9 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2797-g01947e5: Increase Bellows power and change costs. 10(31 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=01947e54e97f 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2798-g3bed31f: Igni ability: fire fortress. 10(28 hours ago, 7 files, 96+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bed31f8edfd 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2799-g21988c3: Rearrange Igni ability enums. 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=21988c33db5b 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2800-g76bbdaf: Remove ARTP_ANGRY from igni artefacts. 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=76bbdafd6802 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2801-g0715ef1: New 0* Igni ability: enchant scrolls never fail. 10(28 hours ago, 4 files, 14+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0715ef16162d 18:25:22 03pubby02 {|amethyst} 07[smithgod] * 0.14-a0-2802-g03c458f: Make the swamp layout more open. 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=03c458f75b93 18:25:22 ... and 2 more commits 18:25:23 dancing weapon (16() | Spd: 15 | HD: 15 | HP: 28 | AC/EV: 14/18 | Dam: 26 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 879 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 18:25:23 <|amethyst> %?? dancing weapon ; mace unrand:eos 18:25:32 Old Tomb card 18:25:50 Old Nemelex piety 18:25:56 how has tomb card been changed? 18:26:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:02 Not permanent 18:26:03 It used to be permanent 18:26:03 The walls used to be permanent. 18:26:22 ....wow 18:26:25 Explanations in increasing length 18:26:30 sounds like a prime candidate for randomly drawing cards on the early floors 18:26:32 did khufu's too :p 18:26:33 wheals: hope you had teleport/dig/disint 18:26:41 or did he not exist 18:27:01 I don't think that ever was the case 18:27:16 Old haste 18:27:21 ha 18:27:23 Old greater mummies 18:27:26 +8 robes! 18:27:27 (ancient berserk) 18:27:29 don't tell me haste was permanent, or something 18:27:32 What changed about greater mummies? 18:27:36 Lasted longer, less glow 18:27:37 haste was *2 18:27:43 s??desperate[miscast] 18:27:44 desperate[22/25]: eith: I found a way to survive I miscast enough to accrue mutations and got teleportitis 18:27:45 that's the important change 18:27:55 -!- duckroller has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:27:56 DracoOmega: I think they had speed 15 18:28:03 What? 18:28:09 haha, Fast Mummies 18:28:19 This was when haste was double speed 18:28:20 fr: mummy athletes 18:28:24 and rSlow existed 18:28:25 Are you sure on that? 18:28:36 lemme check 18:29:04 Oh, almost forgot 18:29:06 Extension 18:29:14 %git 64c5cd77 18:29:14 07kilobyte02 * 0.8.0-a0-2274-g64c5cd7: Compensate for the haste nerf by slowing monsters that most people fight hasted. 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 57+ 57-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=64c5cd775d2f 18:29:27 wait, that moves them from 10 to 9 18:29:43 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:45 Yes, that I remember 18:30:00 Experimental (smithgod) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2804-gcf3b495 18:30:16 oh, were you around back then? 18:30:33 i wasn't, ha 18:30:35 Yes 18:30:48 Experimental (summons_adjustments) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2865-ge85c075 18:31:03 The first version I played in a competent manner was 0.7 18:31:32 (Though had played old Crawl since before DCSS existed, off and on again. Poorly :P) 18:31:45 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:24 dpeg: it'd be easier for all of us if you could just accept that item weights matter much more than you want them to or than, arguably, they should 18:33:04 similarly to shop stacking, hiding useful stuff behind a toggle that new players probably don't know of is the opposite of helping them 18:33:35 -!- ChrisOelmueller was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [ChrisOelmueller] 18:33:49 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34:20 DracoOmega: I won 4b26 exactly when DCSS 0.1 came out. Exciting times! :) 18:34:30 Hehe 18:34:31 Well, DCSS had speed 10 greater mummies initially... 18:34:59 (so did 4b26) 18:35:16 yes, the power spiral was at work 18:35:19 <|amethyst> Item weights are also useful on pickup 18:35:23 <|amethyst> not just drop 18:35:35 -!- ChrisOelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:56 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 18:36:15 ChrisOelmueller: I refuse to talk to you. Not because of disagreements on details, but because of your tone. You taint ##crawl-dev and I won't have that. 18:36:40 |amethyst: what is really relevant though are not the numbers but the status change (unencumbered -> burdened etc.) 18:37:00 The numbers cause the status change 18:37:10 |amethyst: I know that it's technically much easier to do this via numbers, but the interface could be designed much better. 18:37:32 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:39 Basil: I can give another example: piety is a number between 0 and 200, for good reasons. What we show and use internally as often as possible is *, **, ... 18:38:23 Well, you can't really (and have no cause to) manipulate your piety to specific thresholds 18:38:37 yes, but this is the same paradigm 18:38:40 But it's definitely relevant that some items weigh much more than others 18:38:48 make information as coarse as possible 18:38:51 dpeg: i want to say it's funny because you do the same stuff you call others, in public, out for but it's actually not funny 18:38:52 And it's helpful to see which, since sometimes there are large differences 18:39:00 The solution to regaining piety is 9/10 killing more dudes 18:39:06 ChrisOelmueller: consider yourself banned. 18:39:07 -!- ChrisOelmueller was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [ChrisOelmueller] 18:39:17 whereas burdened status is a matter of juggling whatever you have 18:39:50 |amethyst: instead of showing item weights, a new player would profit much more from telling them: "Picking this up would make you burdened. Don't!!" 18:39:56 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:40:05 i'd like that for the orb either way 18:40:09 hmm 18:40:29 How often are players separated from their "stash" excepting disconnected portals? 18:40:31 i dont think i agree, since without showing item weights it's really not clear at all how much different things weigh 18:40:43 Yeah, I agree with crate 18:40:44 chunks in particular are much heavier than i would expect 18:40:54 as I've said here before, I think removing item weight altogether would be a good solution to all this :P 18:40:58 dpeg: Also, doesn't autopickup already do this? 18:41:11 elliptic: yes, but I don't think I can get that into 0.14. 18:41:16 DracoOmega: not sure whether it does by default 18:41:16 elliptic: That's also what I was thinking, yes 18:41:22 elliptic: Yes, there's very few items for which weight is a really meaningful limiter 18:41:24 I really think that item weights are useful for experienced players, and harmful for new players. 18:41:25 Large rocks... 18:41:37 Stack size of 3/5 18:41:39 When starting to play Sil, I really loathed at all the numbers it throws at me. 18:41:40 But that stuff can be handled otherwise, if needed 18:41:47 maybe if chunks didnt weigh so much 18:42:01 that sounds like an easy change that doesnt affect much except make life easier 18:42:35 Well, I'm not sure weight in general accomplishes much meaningful at the moment. Like, some 'magey' starts can carry less gear in theory, but I think you end up with more juggling than meaningful limitations of kit 18:42:36 dpeg: was the show_weight default changed from 0.13? 18:42:53 elliptic: I think so. It was just a default reversal. 18:43:14 Napkin: thanks 18:43:18 np 18:43:21 well no, weight doesnt accomplish terribly much, but i was putting forth a suggestion that would eliminate the most problematic part of weight management while not being as far-reaching as eliminating it entirely 18:43:24 :p 18:43:27 Yes, sure 18:43:32 since i really think chunks are the biggest problem 18:43:34 DracoOmega: And ranged 18:43:42 that is sort of annoying 18:43:45 Basil: You can carry far more ammo at once that you'll ever need in a battle 18:43:47 especially since you pick up and drop chunks more often than anything else 18:43:50 So it's not really 'meaningful' 18:43:52 crate: I have a plan to remove most chunk eating for 0.15, so perhaps this will solve itself either way. 18:44:00 Emphasis on 'annoying' 18:44:06 But I do think you underestimate the cognitive load for new folks. 18:44:07 Oh yes, it can be annoying a lot :P 18:44:18 !lm . dshu x=str 18:44:18 72. [2014-02-25 22:21:00] [str=25] Basil the Slayer (L27 DsHu of Okawaru) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5) 18:44:19 making chunks lighter does sound like an improvement to me 18:44:36 But that's the thing, if the limitations aren't producing useful gameplay, then they're not really worth the downsides too 18:44:44 And yeah, that sounds like a simple change that would help a decent bit, anyway 18:44:49 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:50 DracoOmega: they are for wands, and large rocks 18:45:00 Make not-rock ammo weigh nothing??? 18:45:04 dpeg: Large rocks, yes. Wands, I'm not sure if they are in practice, really. 18:45:05 heh 18:45:25 Since you can usually carry what you need with some shuffling around. It's just more interface work. 18:45:27 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:45:28 with wands the far more relevant limit is item slots 18:45:31 imo 18:45:35 That too 18:45:42 Well, if portals were a serious impediment to removing carry weight, 18:46:03 -!- Yosbones has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46:06 maybe have a mystical force rummage through your pack and take everything but 2/3 pieces from every consumable 18:46:12 let's make a deal: no more weights, and inventory size reduced to 40 items! 18:46:16 It doesn't seem like there's some compelling reason to make people unable to take things out of portals 18:46:27 dpeg: That sounds like a nerf to everyone, pretty much 18:46:29 On entry, not exit 18:46:32 was a joke 18:46:33 so my problem with reducing the number of item slots you have is the things i would stop carrying first are things like ?id and ?remove curse 18:46:34 40 item limit sounds awful yes 18:46:41 (Reminds me of the time I got a CPA of cold resistance I could barely carry out of an ice cave...) 18:46:55 (you get the things back after you exit the portal) 18:46:57 * dpeg begins to understand the advantages of non-persistent levels 18:47:13 Yes, a lot of these limits are hard to make meaningful when you have an infinite stash 18:47:22 So they end up being more an interface issue than a gameplay decision one 18:47:35 all items disappear when dropped 18:47:46 problem solved 18:47:56 Only to be replaced by a much bigger problem :P 18:48:00 xD 18:48:07 anyway, I am not fighting those numbers out of spite, I think they're harmful to the player part most helpless (because they don't know about options, and might be lost right away), and making life easier for them is important, imo 18:48:12 -!- Fhqwhgads__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:48:51 For what it's worth, I missed the presence of the numbers when they weren't there, and found it sort of annoying that it didn't display them 18:48:55 When I was new 18:49:17 oh, ok 18:49:37 Since I was trying to juggle inventory weights and felt it would be much easier if I could tell how much stuff weighed 18:49:39 I wish Eino was here... he did those usability tests 18:49:40 dpeg: about showing inventory weights, I understand the point that showing new players numbers that are mostly irrelevant isn't good, but these numbers are at least not in that obtrusive a location 18:49:46 As opposed to dropping this or that and picking it up again to see if my status changed 18:50:07 elliptic: I couldn't see my randart inscription today, because some "(12 aum)" hid it! 18:50:15 since the inventory screen doesn't really have other numbers 18:50:22 dpeg: new players won't know what the inscriptions mean anyway 18:50:38 DracoOmega: what I am saying is that the drop/pickup screen should instead tell you how your status will change 18:50:46 I was so happy when I found out how to show inv weights via rc file 18:50:53 elliptic: but they are a lot more important than weights 18:51:00 alright, I give up 18:51:11 dpeg: They matter rather less 18:51:13 well you could make artefact names shorter :p 18:51:20 less frequently, rather 18:51:23 make every artefact "Plog" 18:51:27 to make more room for stuff 18:51:34 -!- Zilis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:37 but I'm a packrat who always carries too much 18:51:44 -!- the_glow1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:50 In that I don't remember item weight ever obstructing the inscription for me 18:51:57 -!- Zilis has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:06 unless your experience is that it is a common thing 18:52:09 filthy hugetermer 18:52:17 elliptic: the location is alright (the best one available), but every number we display gives away the impression that it is important (the status screen is too number-heavy too, imo) 18:52:18 johnstein: You and me both 18:52:42 I was also raised on MiBe. so I learned a lot of bad habits 18:53:02 not realizing that it's not normal to pick up ALL the things 18:53:26 which is ironic since MiBe doesn't need much 18:53:26 Well, I can't chaulk this up to that for me. But there's always situations I can think about where X or Y could be useful so I would like to have them 'just in case' :P 18:53:35 yea 18:53:44 dpeg: well, I think most of us find the weights pretty important from the viewpoint of "not going totally crazy every time we become burdened and have to figure out what to drop" :P 18:53:53 yes 18:53:56 Hehe. Hear, hear 18:54:01 and just enough times where it was just barely justified to have had it since it actually helped once or twice 18:54:32 * dpeg wonders if there's a book about good interface he could send to the whole devteam :) 18:54:33 dpeg: this isn't a good type of importance, of course... it isn't a key feature of an item that it weighs 5 aum... but it does come up a lot :/ 18:54:40 * wheals goes off to try to get shops to remain stacked by default 18:54:44 removing carry capacity would also help for things like +str gloves for tm (i actively avoid them even though they are "better") 18:54:48 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:55:02 anyway, I'll go about this in different ways ... you haven't seen the last of me!!! :) 18:55:22 I really do think the best solution is probably just to remove weight anyway :P 18:55:23 Brogue hunger would solve all of this clearly 18:55:25 The more I've thought about it 18:55:30 DracoOmega: yes, that is what I mean 18:55:46 Basil: of course, but Brogue is small enough to be get away with this, and Crawl is not. 18:55:48 the only time weight is ever relevant for me is for large rocks specifically, but i solve that by never carrying them 18:55:50 If some DEWz gets to carry a couple more halberds, that is probably fine :P 18:55:50 well having the weight limit forces you to make hard decision a 18:56:15 Yes, large rocks are one of the only obvious cases where weight matters a ton 18:56:16 decisions. seems like it's an issue for evokable a 18:56:21 But that can likely be addressed specifically 18:56:26 evokables 18:56:30 Oh, here's how best to use your weight capacity in the endgame, btw: 18:56:32 for evokables space matters a lot 18:56:33 !lg . decj won -log 18:56:34 1. SGrunt, XL27 DECj, T:172646: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/SGrunt/morgue-SGrunt-20140204-000029.txt 18:56:40 a - A large rock {steel} 18:56:44 180 aum 18:56:44 for evokables i'm always hitting the 52 item limit before the weight limit 18:56:52 <_< >_> 18:56:57 i did mess up with the orb and not have any might when i picked it up 18:57:03 but that's not too usual 18:57:04 {POWER OF SNOZZ, !e} 18:57:05 hmm. good point crate. 18:57:07 if i ever happen to be having non-large-rock weight problems i just take 1 more point of str 18:57:16 I think we could end up with a system where Str tells you how many large rocks you can carry, and that's it. 18:57:17 since i wont ever miss the 1 dex/int it coulve been 18:57:34 -!- rast has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:52 crate: that's another actual problem: our stats are not meaningless, but they are too fine-grained. 18:57:58 Should make them coarser at some point. 18:58:09 1-10 scale 18:58:21 or perhaps dividing by 2 18:58:23 str muts were doubled 18:58:28 or stat muts 18:58:29 yes, that was good 18:58:34 I kinda like that idea dpeg. equating str with # of rocks 18:58:37 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:37 Are they 18:58:41 "meaningful" now 18:58:42 -!- nickajeglin has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:43 I think halving stats was generally agreed to be a good thing, yeah 18:58:52 +2 feels like it does something sometimes 18:58:54 They seem pretty meaningful to me, sure 18:58:54 and doubling stat muts was part of that 18:58:57 if so just halving them might be sufficient yes 18:59:14 Basil: yes, they are. But you should think in terms of "+-5 Str" not "+-1 Str" 18:59:26 * Grunt should scribble this down somewhere on the "to consider for 0.15" list, wherever that will be <_< 19:00:09 Ideally this is after str is disjoined from carry weight 19:00:13 hehe, I also have stuff on my 0.15 list... we should put them all side by side and realise that they'll carry us straight up to 0.19 19:00:24 Basil: probably, yes 19:00:28 Maybe I'll clear out some of the cruft from the wiki planning page... 19:00:35 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 19:00:38 -5 str sounds really bad 19:00:59 (my stuff is completely optional, apart from the chunk rule change I'd like to see tried out) 19:01:18 Well, without the weight limit, it seems like a meaningful but not amazingly annoying kind of penalty 19:01:28 Hurts EV in armour a lot 19:01:37 Maybe doesn't matter in light stuff 19:01:47 stats don't have to matter all the time 19:01:56 Mostly that was an addendum to "Ideally after carry weight" 19:02:02 DracoOmega: hurts accuracy in armour also now that heavy armour actually affects melee accuracy :P 19:02:02 Basil: Fair enough 19:02:06 Ah yes 19:02:18 so i guess the fsim bug i reported wasnt just fsim 19:02:25 Speaking of which, would it hurt if fighter got some modest buff? It was considered not a terribly strong start even before it got nerfed :P 19:02:26 (I wonder how much other stuff is still broken from melee code reform?) 19:02:35 i think fi is good 19:02:36 Enchanted weapon? 19:03:03 DracoOmega: I think Fi was a bit stronger than Gl previously, probably it is weaker again now... what buff did you have in mind? 19:03:10 enchanted starting weapons are strange 19:03:18 I have no clue why some backgrounds get them and others do not 19:03:23 AK 19:03:25 +2 weapon 19:03:29 oh i guess the armour and shield changes probably affect fi start yeah 19:03:30 yes 19:03:31 I hadn't really given it much thought to be honest 19:03:33 (bugfixes) 19:03:36 for the crippling disadvantage of starting with Lucy 19:03:36 isn't AK and en the only one now? 19:03:41 As 19:03:45 (And I'm also half-asleep at the moment, so not that sharp) 19:03:51 and wn 19:03:54 ogas +2 club 19:04:19 ??dk 19:04:20 death knight[1/1]: Replaced priest of Yredelemnul in 0.8, but with a choice of weapons, more melee skill, and less starting piety. 19:04:35 !lm * dk xl=1 19:04:36 1535. [2014-03-06 00:17:30] Giffur the Exhumer (L1 MiDK of Yredelemnul) began the quest for the Orb on turn 0. (D:1) 19:04:37 Basil: huh? Irony? 19:04:39 fix: remove dk 19:04:49 What about irony? 19:04:55 Not sure if DK gets enchanted weapons 19:04:58 Lugony as disadvantage? 19:04:58 !log * dk xl=1 19:04:59 11917. Giffur, XL1 MiDK, T:122: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Giffur/morgue-Giffur-20140306-001814.txt 19:05:04 Oh, that yes 19:05:19 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 19:05:21 dpeg: do you have a better explanation for why AK gets a +2 weapon at start? 19:05:24 I wasn't actually thinking about an enchanted starting weapon in particular, even if that's some 'obvious' way to buff them a little 19:05:27 !log * ak xl=1 19:05:28 26705. Freenator, XL1 VSAK, T:38: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Freenator/morgue-Freenator-20140305-232210.txt 19:05:28 elliptic: I have no clue :) 19:05:56 well, lugonu doesn't do anything on d:1 19:06:20 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:30 You can cheese your way into +5 weapon skill 19:06:35 anyway my main thoughts about Fi is that it should either remain roughly balanced with Gl or Gl should be removed 19:06:37 until you run into a mimic on your 0th turn 19:06:50 bbbut my nets! 19:07:20 just play as and pretend your curare are nets 19:07:23 They do seem reasonably different, even if they're more similar than most starts 19:07:48 DracoOmega: I agree. But it's nicer to offer some variety in the melee department, I think. 19:07:56 s/nicer/nice/ 19:08:10 also to show new players that light armour melee is feasible 19:08:29 Well, every melee background but fighter has light armour 19:09:07 yeah, it's not super important really 19:09:22 dpeg: by the way, javelin hunters get nets :) 19:09:35 Really? In addition to javelins? 19:09:39 (or throwing hunters in general) 19:09:41 oh yeah i forgot about that 19:09:45 I actually didn't know that. (Because why would you pick javelins?) 19:09:53 javelin hunters are cool IMO 19:10:01 Well, the nets do make them cooler! 19:10:11 it is like a melee background with javelins instead of melee stuff 19:10:20 basically a gladiator :p 19:10:20 Should make nets stack better 19:10:31 None of this frayed business 19:10:36 yeah, javelin hunters are part of why I wouldn't miss Gl that much 19:10:44 Stack like needles 19:10:45 elliptic: I didn't know! 19:11:01 -!- bencryption has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:10 even stuff like TrHu gets nets I guess 19:11:33 I don't remember OgHu getting nets. Maybe the last time I played one was too long ago? 19:11:37 (Or maybe I just don't remember) 19:11:51 Blinded by the rocks 19:12:29 just tried, elliptic is right of course (rocks/javelins gets you two nets) 19:13:03 anyway, I think it's cool to give melee types some kind of (fitting!) emergency item 19:13:17 ??classes 19:13:17 background[1/1]: Affects starting skills, equipment, gold, spells, religion, piety, known items and the starting values for HP, MP, Str, Int and Dex and nothing else and nothing afterwards. 19:13:30 ??background list 19:13:31 I don't have a page labeled background_list in my learndb. 19:13:41 ??starting stats[3 19:13:41 starting stats[3/3]: AM 3,5,4 | AK 4,4,4 | Ar 3,4,5 | As 3,3,6 | Be 9,-1,4 | CK 4,4,4 | DK 5,3,4 | Fi 8,0,4 | Gl 7,0,5 | He 5,5,2 | Hu 4,3,5 | Mo 3,2,7 | Sk 4,4,4 | Tm 2,5,5 | Wn random | Wr 3,5,4 | Wz -1,10,3 | AE,Cj,EE,En,FE,IE,Ne,Su,VM 0,7,5 19:13:48 Clearly give fighters a starting !might >.>; 19:14:04 (Only if we give Sk a starting !berserk <_<;) 19:14:12 Hehe 19:14:13 anyway, currently it is Fi/Gl +0 weapon of possibly better base type, Be/Sk/Wr +0 weapon, DK +1 weapon, AK +2 weapon, CK +0 chaos weapon 19:14:21 for backgrounds that get to pick a melee weapon 19:14:53 elliptic: how weak is Lugonu as a starting god? 19:15:02 not weak at all 19:15:16 though as someone observed earlier, lugonu doesn't do much on D:1 19:15:17 !lg . ak -log 19:15:18 8. Basil, XL27 OgAK, T:100549: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Basil/morgue-Basil-20131206-171516.txt 19:15:44 2455 | D:3 | Acquired Lugonu's third power 19:15:45 I fought for keeping AK as a starting background because I think it's really good to give players access to the Abyss when they want to. An anti-spoiler measure, if you like. I don't care about the weapon enchantment much. 19:16:23 Even bend space is fairly underwhelming as a starting advantage 19:16:26 Of course, banish is fantastic 19:16:29 2648 | D:3 | Banished Grinder 19:16:35 See! :P 19:16:50 I guess at the moment the only advantages in weapon selection that Fi/Gl get are trident instead of spear and qstaff as Gl 19:17:07 ??long blades 19:17:07 long blades[1/1]: acc,dam,delay[hands]: falchion 2,8,13; long sword 1,10,14; scimitar -2,12,14; demon blade -1,13,13; double sword -1,15,15; great sword -3,16,16[2]; triple sword -4,19,19[2] 19:17:30 maybe removing the trident thing and giving Fi/Gl +1 weapons could be reasonable 19:17:45 though +1 qstaff is pretty ridiculous on D:1 19:17:50 elliptic: I have full trust in whatever you do there. 19:18:10 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2990-g9259616: A couple of adjustments to Shadow Step targeting. 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 6+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9259616cc7dc 19:18:17 I'd also suggest changing AK to +1 weapon to match DK 19:18:47 I wonder how much people would complain if we removed staff Gl 19:18:58 * Grunt glares at elliptic. 19:19:13 B-but priests are no more! :P 19:19:14 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:19:18 Or qstaff monks >.> 19:19:35 yes this is what I was afraid of :P 19:19:41 I don't even use staffs 19:19:42 funny that it is much harder to come up with interesting backgrounds than with cool species or gods 19:19:50 maybe the staff could still be +0 even if other weapons are +1 19:19:58 I don't really have strong feelings on the topic either way 19:20:33 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bedtime] 19:21:26 -!- Stelpa has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:28 The trident thing IS a bit odd, when you think about it. Only for polearms and not other weapon classes, and pretty much obviously better than most of the other options 19:21:30 (to be clear, I'm not opposed to giving Fi a consumable like !might as well... just the current status of starting weapon enchantment bothers me) 19:21:55 Yes, some reasonable unification there could make sense 19:22:13 DracoOmega: at times in the past there have been discussions of offering improved weapons for the other weapon types too, but there aren't really great options for some of them 19:22:24 ??trident 19:22:24 trident[1/1]: A shafted weapon with three points at one end. (one-handed Polearm; Dam 9 Acc +1 Delay 13) 19:22:27 flail instead of mace! 19:22:27 -!- PleasingFungus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:28 ??maces 19:22:29 maces and flails[1/2]: whip 2,6,11; club 3,5,13; hammer 3,7,13; mace 3,8,14; flail 0,10,14; morningstar -2,13,15; demon whip 1,11,11; holy scourge 0,12,11; eveningstar -1,15,15; dire flail -3,13,13[2]; g. mace -4,17,17[2]; g. club -6,20,17[2.5]; g. s. club -7,22,18[2.5] 19:22:33 Flail, long sword 19:22:38 war axe!! 19:22:43 ??long blades 19:22:43 long blades[1/1]: acc,dam,delay[hands]: falchion 2,8,13; long sword 1,10,14; scimitar -2,12,14; demon blade -1,13,13; double sword -1,15,15; great sword -3,16,16[2]; triple sword -4,19,19[2] 19:22:43 ??war axe 19:22:43 war axe[1/2]: A one-handed axe. Acc: 0, Damage: 11, Delay: 15. 19:23:01 flail and long sword seem pretty comparable to trident 19:23:03 ??hand axe 19:23:03 hand axe[1/1]: A small axe designed for either hand combat or, in past versions (0.13 and older), throwing. (one-handed axe; Dmg 7 Acc +3 Delay 13) 19:23:03 I guess flail and long sword aren't totally ridiculous at the moment, yeah 19:23:05 -!- Kraito has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:06 dunno about war axe 19:23:09 war axe is a bit slow 19:23:15 -!- Argentum is now known as Kraito 19:23:17 (clearly buff war axe) 19:23:32 and sabre for short blades presumably would be fine 19:23:35 11/1.5 vs 10/1.4 19:24:11 HO buff 19:24:12 (yes, I know, it is a cutlass now) 19:24:13 hooray 19:24:21 elliptic: Haha, I hadn't even noticed when you mentioned it :P 19:24:27 Forever sabres 19:24:35 But HO nerf for orcish nerf 19:24:48 pretty sure it will take me at least a year to stop calling them sabres 19:24:56 Heh 19:25:04 I don't think I'll ever stop 19:25:11 ??lochabar axe 19:25:11 lochabar axe ~ lochaber axe ~ bardiche[1/1]: This polearm is an enormous combination of pike and battle axe. Damage 18, accuracy -6, delay 20, damage type: chopping. Was called lochaber axe prior to 0.4. Will always be called lochaber axe in cbus's heart. 19:25:35 But yeah, a lot of these options seem fairly on-par with tridens in terms of upgrades 19:25:42 Or at least reasonably so 19:26:04 ??quarterstaff 19:26:04 quarterstaff[1/1]: A fast and accurate stick that you hit things with. Damage: 10. Accuracy: 3. Delay: 13. Two-handed. 19:26:17 I guess they are still clearly worse than qstaff for Gl, too 19:26:25 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:55 so sure, we could try this instead... I seem to remember that this looked crazier the last time this was discussed 19:27:00 Ha 19:27:06 elliptic: qstaff has the downside of having no common upgrades, though 19:27:07 maybe long sword/flail got tweaked since then 19:27:07 Yeah, it looks reasonable to try to me 19:27:08 Well, qstaff gl has that upgrade thing 19:27:12 ontoclasm: right 19:27:48 (on the other hand, qstaff gl has the "best weapon in the game as its upgrade" thing too :p) 19:27:58 indeed 19:28:02 qstaff destroys d:1-d:4 but then everyone else has shiny stuff and you're still holding a semi-big stick 19:28:15 yeah, unless you get a laj of course 19:28:17 ontoclasm: then you upgrade to yiuf's staff 19:28:18 Weapon acquirement is your friend 19:28:32 ??weapon acquirement 19:28:32 weapon acquirement[1/1]: The type of weapon you get is weighted by your skills and also by which types you've already seen. 19:28:36 i would still choose qstaff gladiator if gl could choose trident/flail/longsword also 19:28:39 (I imagine that's really good for qstaff users, isn't it?) 19:28:41 (this is part of why I have used yiuf's staff a lot) 19:28:48 i think trident is probably better than longsword/flail early on anyway 19:29:01 It probably is, but the others would at least be competitive 19:29:07 yes 19:29:16 crate: yeah, my worry about longsword/flail was always more that they would be slow/inaccurate for chars with less good apts 19:29:26 ??mace 19:29:26 mace[1/1]: A long handle with a heavy lump on the end. (one-handed mace; Dmg 8 Acc +3 Delay 14) 19:29:26 than that they would be too good 19:29:27 ??flail 19:29:27 flail[1/1]: Damage: 10, Acc: 0, Delay: 14. 19:29:35 (and war axe more so) 19:29:36 mm, maybe a bit for fi, but yeah they seem similar to trident 19:29:41 war axe yeah i can see that 19:29:45 ??trident 19:29:45 trident[1/1]: A shafted weapon with three points at one end. (one-handed Polearm; Dam 9 Acc +1 Delay 13) 19:30:09 maybe +1,+0? 19:30:27 hand axe is bad enough that war axe pretty much has to be better though for anyone I think 19:30:33 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 19:30:46 ontoclasm: Nah, I think it's better to keep enchant out of this. Getting better base types is enough distinction on its own 19:31:15 yeah, and giving "simple" backgrounds like Fi plain weapons is good I think 19:32:05 * Grunt pokes at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:planning a bit. 19:32:07 Incidentally, how reasonable do you think giving them a starting !might actually is? (Or does anyone have some kind of consumable-like idea that isn't done by another background and fits?) 19:32:31 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:38 -!- rast- has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:59 I'm not sure... the main problem with giving starting consumables like that is that people won't notice them or remember them, I think 19:34:13 Well, it might be a good lesson in remembering to use such things 19:34:24 well, it is more that you never pick it up or use-ID it 19:34:39 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:34:52 I'm not sure I understand what you're meaning? 19:34:56 so unless you remember your background comes with it, you won't know about it unless you actually check your inventory 19:35:07 Oh 19:35:12 -!- rast has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:13 -!- rast- is now known as rast 19:35:15 Like Hu nets? 19:35:18 (Put it in the quiver.) 19:35:18 I am spoiled by tiles showing your inventory constantly 19:35:22 So this wouldn't occur to me :P 19:35:24 (You awkwardly throw a potion of might.) 19:35:28 Because it's very visibly there 19:35:54 well the hunter nets get quivered if you run out of javs, at least 19:36:06 DracoOmega: well, you still need to look there, no? I just mean that sometimes I'll have games where I *know* that I haven't found a single potion yet, so I won't even think about drinking potions as an option 19:36:36 on a related note i often forget to check if my wn has any spells so i've probably missed some that start with a spell but not the book 19:36:39 elliptic: Well, it's on the screen normally. I mean, I suppose you'd have to glance in that direction at some point maybe 19:36:44 as --He 19:37:00 But is this much worse than any other background that starts with items? 19:37:06 Of which there are more than a couple 19:37:17 are there really? I can just think of --He 19:37:21 and --Wn 19:37:26 wr gets ?blink 19:37:30 oh right 19:37:31 potions of strength start identified >.> 19:37:36 Artificer gets some too :P 19:37:36 see elliptic already forgot 19:37:39 he wouldve died 19:37:42 Hahaha 19:37:54 well with artificer it is your main way of killing things 19:37:59 healer gets something? 19:38:04 healer gets some curing and hw 19:38:08 I guess you're not counting throwing items? 19:38:10 wow 19:38:17 anyway aside from this issue I think giving --Fi !might would be cool 19:38:19 (Because they show up in your quiver or something?) 19:38:33 well it's more that you expect to start with a weapon of some sort 19:38:36 maybe it would be easier to remember these things if more backgrounds did this 19:38:39 (sometimes this is a spell) 19:38:49 but yes, very few backgrounds start with a consumable 19:38:52 so you forget it is a thing 19:39:14 bring back thieves so they can start with !agility 19:39:35 give wz !brilliance 19:39:37 give wizards brilliance in case they need max power magic dart on D:1 19:39:41 yess 19:39:48 Haha 19:39:49 Beat me to it 19:39:52 actually 19:39:56 only trwz and ogwz should get brilliance 19:40:01 could give artificers ?recharging instead of knowledge of it (which is really weird IMO) 19:40:02 !tell dpeg does this look acceptable? http://pastie.org/pastes/8878404/text 19:40:03 wheals: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 19:40:06 adding more consumables like that seems ok to me 19:40:26 Yeah, I often thought a few little things like this could spice up some background potentially 19:40:40 -!- st_ has quit [] 19:40:41 "one useful combat consumable" is a pretty good way to give a weak background a minor buff i would guess 19:40:49 since it pretty much wins you one battle of your choice 19:40:50 And also encourage learning item use! 19:41:11 well personally i would just like it because it's fun to have consumables to use 19:41:15 Crawl now all about performance enhancing drugs 19:41:19 i dont care too much about the power level 19:41:43 Yes, fun is good 19:41:44 a guaranteed useful potion is a fairly significant buff if you know how to pick your spots, mind 19:42:05 potion of "anxiety reducing medication" 19:42:13 possibly it wins you two fights since you may find another one and know about it without needing id scroll 19:42:18 Fi -> might, Gl -> agility, Sk -> speed, Ar -> recharging 19:42:26 Interesting 19:42:57 AM? 19:42:57 (and currently we have Wr -> blinking, He -> curing+heal wounds) 19:43:01 give berserker !berserk (except it does nothing :( ) 19:43:06 what does AM need a consumable for 19:43:12 rename potion of magic potion of recharging 19:43:22 it needs brilliance so you can ledas your first ogre 19:43:22 well, what do any of them, really 19:43:24 yeah, in general I think that backgrounds with books are less in need of this 19:43:36 They already have custom tools to use 19:43:36 but we have skald 19:43:56 AM is either a very powerful background or a background with so many problems a potion won't do much to help 19:44:03 crate: It is useful if Mennas shows up on D:1 and prevents you from invoking berserk 19:44:04 yeah, Sk/Wr don't really need anything 19:44:08 -!- indspenc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:21 neither does Ar really, I just don't like giving knowledge of recharging without giving any actual scrolls :P 19:44:26 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:33 It's an odd quirk, yes 19:44:49 ??class list 19:44:49 class list[1/1]: 0.13 classes: AE AK AM Ar As Be Cj CK DK EE En FE Fi Gl He Hu IE Mo Ne Sk Su Tm VM Wn Wr Wz 19:44:53 But I wouldn't be opposed to giving them an actual scroll either 19:45:12 could reduce number of charges in starting wands a bit to compensate if desired 19:45:26 CK -> random uselessness 19:45:35 mmmm 19:45:40 box of beasts 19:45:40 (not really) 19:45:53 random deck 19:45:55 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 19:46:06 deck of xom 19:46:07 Sack of spiders is probably too strong. 19:46:18 rod of striking 19:46:21 <_< >_> <_< >_> 19:46:23 ar basically already has the consumables thing anyway 19:46:23 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:46:25 since it has its wands 19:46:32 gammafunk: I guess AM is the next background that would make sense to get something, but I'm not sure what 19:46:44 There really is no easily corresponding item 19:46:44 scroll of immolation 19:46:49 yeah, I only mentioned it when I saw Sk, anyhow 19:46:55 would rather give fear than immo 19:46:58 maybe 19:47:01 scroll of immolation should be ck 19:47:07 replicating a spell in the book seems bad to me 19:47:11 Yeah 19:47:30 (Maybe they could just use some more ammo, honestly?) 19:47:41 maybe AM doesn't need a consumable because it already has all the tools it needs for success... right simmarine?? 19:47:43 The ones I've played often seem prone to running out early 19:47:44 ??mulch rate 19:47:44 I don't have a page labeled mulch_rate in my learndb. 19:47:49 ??mulch 19:47:49 mulching[1/3]: The chance of breakage is: 1/6 for curare and darts; 1/8 for sling bullets, stones, arrows, and bolts; 1/12 for non-curare needles; 1/20 for javelins; 1/30 for tomahawks; and 1/50 for large rocks. Throwing nets only take damage when struggled against. Other thrown things such as hand axes aren't technically missiles, and won't break. 19:48:01 am is a weird start if you go with javs/large rocks ime 19:48:04 160 shots on average 19:48:10 DracoOmega: I think they get as much as Hu does? 19:48:15 I thought they got less 19:48:20 -!- Basil has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:48:20 they both get 20 19:48:23 Oh, huh 19:48:25 My mistake then 19:48:30 but am doesnt start with a known uncursed weapon! 19:48:31 I distinctly remember thinking it was a fair bit less 19:48:43 I think they used to a while back maybe 19:48:59 ??scrolls 19:48:59 scrolls[1/1]: acquirement, amnesia, blinking, curse armour, curse jewelry, curse weapon, enchant armour, enchant weapon I, enchant weapon II, enchant weapon III, fear, fog, holy word, identify, immolation, magic mapping, noise, random uselessness, recharging, remove curse, silence, summoning, teleportation, torment, brand weapon, vulnerability. 19:49:13 give them vulnerability 19:49:19 Hmmm 19:49:26 ??potions 19:49:27 potions[1/3]: agility, beneficial mutation, berserk rage, blood, brilliance, coagulated blood, confusion, cure mutation, curing, decay, degeneration, experience, flight, heal wounds, invisibility, magic, might, mutation, paralysis, poison, porridge, resistance, restore abilities, slowing (0.13 and older), lignification (0.14+), speed, strong poison 19:49:29 hey 19:49:34 what if there was a vulnerability spell? 19:49:43 Clearly CK should start with lignification or something :P 19:49:57 i dont like the idea of a vulnerability spell much personally 19:49:57 well, maybe that is too good if you just dont use it on things that actually cast spells 19:50:04 should just make the scroll more common 19:50:15 seeing them more than once a game would be cool 19:50:33 Well, they are a bit more common now, yes? 19:50:38 Or did that not get merged? 19:50:48 %git HEAD^{/vul} 19:50:49 07nonethousand02 {MarvinPA} * 0.14-a0-2926-g20358d8: Increase the weight of vulnerability scroll generation (decrease remove curse) 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=20358d8b6632 19:50:51 i think my huck only found one or two 19:50:52 i want to say i did notice more on my nawn when i was sacrificing things 19:51:13 but i wasnt looking for them and wouldnt have carried them since i had too many evokables anyway 19:52:51 you'll definitely notice it if you keep an eye out 19:53:14 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:18 The one time I used ?vuln recently, it didn't even do what I meant it to do 19:53:28 (By sheer coincidence I was carrying one) 19:53:44 remove mark? 19:53:44 well there are only 2 in my huck's .lst and i think i used ?id on it instead of read-id'ing 19:53:54 i used a ?vuln to remove mark last game 19:54:02 But as it turned out, it didn't remove dimension anchor 19:54:04 amusingly, it was v:5 but not from a sentinel 19:54:27 it should remove dimension anchor 19:55:05 -!- bh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:12 Oh, huh. I honestly thought I changed that afterward, myself 19:55:16 But it seems not? 19:55:25 I guess I only meant to 19:55:28 hai 19:55:48 Since really, you would expect it to work on that 19:56:00 (And then I almost died) 19:57:02 (And then I almost died) is a pretty good synopsis of crawl 19:57:08 Hahaha 20:00:09 !learn add crawl (And then I almost died) is a pretty good synopsis of crawl 20:00:10 crawl[8/8]: (And then I almost died) is a pretty good synopsis of crawl 20:01:11 -!- kait_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01:53 chalk up one more ontoclasm learndb quote 20:01:56 ...losing is fun? 20:02:24 no no no, almost losing is fun 20:02:35 hence crawl != DF 20:04:23 (And then I almost had fun) 20:04:26 Haha 20:04:41 Crawl to me is at its best when I am madly putting out fires 20:04:52 -!- Sky__ is now known as Guest36348 20:05:00 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:25 Sounds like you play Crawl the way The Sims is meant to be played 20:05:27 did Lava Orcs get the big freeze? 20:05:37 SwissStopwatch: Haha 20:05:56 -!- Guest36348 is now known as Sky______ 20:06:00 Some of my characters lately have been remarkably good at almost dying, continually :P 20:06:02 bh: huh? 20:06:29 One of them even somehow managed this with a vampiric demon trident and slaying 20:06:35 not yet, i heard Eronarn wanted to make some last adjustments or something? 20:06:36 Grunt: ok, they're still in trunk 20:06:37 (But it was also an octopode) 20:07:06 -!- Watball has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:34 -!- alefury has quit [] 20:08:33 i can tell one of my characters is on track for winning when i screw up so hard that i give up trying, but then somehow don't die 20:09:09 I'm guessing it's too late for 0.14 to move some scrolls (enchant armour) and potions (cure mutation) to an indestructible item class? 20:10:15 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:30 <|amethyst> yeah, almost certainly 20:10:30 |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:10:33 Don't do that. 20:10:48 <|amethyst> there are interface issues to work out, for example 20:10:53 k. 0.15 20:10:55 <|amethyst> (hot keys in item selection menus) 20:11:21 The only things that really should be going into 0.14 at this point are those things I mentioned in the crd list. 20:11:31 (Speaking of which, more people need to look through deterministic_poison >_>) 20:11:50 (I think that's in a state where we could land it and tinker further with it as issues crop up in wide playtesting. 20:11:53 ) 20:12:04 Grunt: thanks for taking point on this 20:12:33 Yeah, I think it's basically sane now; even if numbers will need tweaking, they're not out of the ballpark 20:13:51 bh: I'd look towards removing item destruction altogether for 0.15 instead :P 20:14:08 elliptic: I'm more than onboard with that. 20:14:13 !messages 20:14:13 (1/1) ChrisOelmueller said (1d 19h 6m 7s ago): hi, Lantell appears to be missing an update to mute Natasha kills? 20:14:17 are improved throwing nets out of the question for 0.14 too? 20:14:25 Nah, I think that would be fine 20:14:34 In terms of making them mulch like normal things 20:14:45 buppy: I might be able to get at my desktop this weekend 20:14:56 -!- [1]utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15:20 Grunt: the invis fix? 20:15:38 gammafunk: you have that on a branch right now, yes? 20:15:42 bh: that would make me happier than harold 20:15:47 it's not ready, have to repush 20:16:00 and I want at least |amethyst to look it over 20:16:01 buppy: If I have the patch on my harddrive, I'll commit it 20:16:03 bh becomes entangled in the nets! 20:16:05 or someone, at least 20:16:27 I think I am going to repush that brunch presently, anyhow 20:16:33 -!- Lantell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:37 rip 20:16:40 ruo 20:16:42 er 20:16:42 rip 20:16:44 -!- Lantell has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:47 (rip my typing skills) 20:16:51 <|amethyst> gammafunk: repushing one's brunch sounds like an effect of food poisoning 20:16:57 !tell ChrisOelmueller fixed. 20:16:58 TZer0: OK, I'll let chrisoelmueller know. 20:17:00 haha 20:17:16 -!- [1]utrick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:14 -!- utrick has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:17 elliptic: what do you think about making potions not work in Ice Cave and Cocytus? And scrolls not work in Gehenna and Volcano? 20:18:18 The primary html learndb page (http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/) is still out of date. Should I file a Mantis report? 20:18:40 bh: I may not be elliptic, but that sounds pretty bad to me 20:18:45 <|amethyst> reaverb: napkin knows about it, but it's a pretty big change to update 20:18:48 DracoOmega: go on? 20:18:49 <|amethyst> ??learndb 20:18:49 learndb[1/8]: The main version of the learndb html page is outdated due to a pipeline problem (see the date at the top of the page.) You can access a current version of the page here: https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html. 20:18:56 -!- floating1toll has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:02 <|amethyst> reaverb: that one's the primary copy now 20:19:21 Well, can you first present a reason why it would be GOOD to block those consumables there? When they aren't blocked anywhere else, and it's not like ice caves and such are lacking in a challenge, as-is 20:19:35 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:44 hello. i submitted my first crawl bug in maybe forever, and i wanted to make sure i provided all the right information for it. it's cosmetic only, no urgency or anything. #8235 if someone more experienced at filing could inspect it. (also, should be marked Fully Reproducible.) 20:19:54 |amethyst: Is there a way to put a link/redirect from the crawl.develz learndb to the loom.shallot one while the change is being made? 20:19:56 -!- floating1toll is now known as floatingatoll 20:19:59 well, I presume the idea is to be compensating for removing item destruction for the places that most heavily feature it 20:20:08 Oh, I thought you meant NOW 20:20:22 For whatever reason :P 20:20:42 ^ what 10os said 20:20:45 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 20:21:32 Oh, well in that sense... one idea I had in another context related to removing item destruction was to have standing in a freezing cloud block potion use for some X turns afterward 20:21:44 (Presumably the same debuff that refrigeration could apply to self) 20:22:05 -!- indspenc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:25 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:26 "vomit blizzard" is a mental image I will never forget now 20:24:47 tenofswords: On your hangedman_abyss_rune_treasure_dump vault: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=search;h=087542d4c1bbdf1dfc2fcb233ca44dfcaa861eb2;s=Eino+Keskitalo;st=author removed Lamps of Fire from it in commit 087542d4c1 because they became useful, but missed the new useful rods of striking, so maybe those should be removed too. Also, it looks like it tries to place rune mimics. 20:24:56 bh: of such effects, the only one that I like the sound of is making self-refrigeration block potion use for x turns 20:25:04 reaverb: tries? 20:25:07 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all] 20:25:23 -!- indspenceable has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:59 bh: basically I feel like "can use X item type" should be something under the player's control... as a cost of choosing to be a certain species or use a certain spell (e.g. lichform) it works fine 20:26:11 tenofsword: Sorry, for some reason I had the impression rune mimics were removed. Doesn't help the learndb doesn't have anything under rune mimic. Just the rod of striking thing then. 20:26:14 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: hm... I'm not sure I can reproduce the problem 20:26:25 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 20:26:40 |amethyst: I can! 20:26:53 apart from item dest, one reason to move things like ench armour to another item class is to have enable someone to make a non-gamebreaking no-scroll conduct race/god 20:27:03 i'm trying to repro in webtiles, but i'll have to play for a bit since i can't figure how to activate wiz_mode 20:27:16 <|amethyst> ohh 20:27:17 floatingatoll: I can do it 20:27:21 <|amethyst> it depends on having zero skill in slings 20:27:27 oh, interesting 20:27:33 i didn't think about that! 20:27:35 I started working on an abyss rune vault edit spree a bit back, which included that vault; I'll try to address it among all the other major wide-spread edits I need to finish before the 0.14 branching 20:27:44 floatingatoll: spec me 20:27:45 so thank you for reminding of this, reaverb 20:27:48 <|amethyst> or, rather, less than 1 20:27:49 bh: what? 20:27:55 you can spectate me on CAO 20:27:58 i see. 20:28:07 tenofswords: No problem. 20:29:34 bh repro'd on webtiles 20:29:39 great 20:29:45 this doesn't look like a bug? throwing is higher than slings so slings gets the green +4 bonus 20:30:06 <|amethyst> nonethousand: the problem is that throwing doesn't get a * 20:30:08 yes, but throwing should show a green crosstraining * 20:30:20 "source of crosstrain" 20:30:25 -!- Lasty1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:35 oh I see 20:30:39 sorry my mistake 20:30:41 no worries 20:30:41 <|amethyst> oh 20:30:50 <|amethyst> crosstrain_other is used only by the menu, nothing else 20:31:05 heh. 20:31:29 <|amethyst> really, it should show the * if the thing with the bonus is shown in the menu 20:31:40 * floatingatoll nods 20:31:50 i provided a patch in the bug for that 20:31:52 did we ever fix that weird thing where Kobolds can train lblades for cheaper by first training shortblades and then cross training? 20:32:03 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: doesn't that make it always show the * ? 20:32:13 |amethyst: i think not, one sec 20:32:29 well. yes. it does something funny. 20:32:33 bh: I think there weren't any real proposals as to what to change 20:32:41 -!- Sky______ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:32:45 * floatingatoll not sure what correct form of patch is. 20:32:55 (like, to not destroy the skill menu. git diff works great.) 20:33:22 bh: like, I agree it is weird behavior and not great, but changing the entire crosstraining formula just because of it doesn't seem that great to me 20:33:31 I guess could just adjust apts in a few cases? 20:33:49 elliptic: Couldn't we just change cross-training so you get a benefit for free? 20:34:03 i'll try to do another patch that doesn't create any *new* bugs in the menu :) thanks for the help, bh et al. 20:34:04 what do you mean? 20:34:27 Wait, is it LEGITIMATELY cheaper to raise sbl first and then crosstrain on them? 20:34:38 Even including the skill cost level increase? 20:34:41 If SBlades > LBlades, receive SBlades * fraction to LBlades 20:34:44 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: trying something 20:34:47 DracoOmega: I believe so 20:34:57 DracoOmega: iirc yes, though the skill cost level stuff is confusing 20:35:00 Since that has a pretty significant, if less surface effect 20:35:04 DracoOmega: I think it doesn't actually hurt you though 20:35:10 Kobolds are +3 sblades, -2 lblades 20:35:35 DracoOmega: because it is effectively based on how much xp you've put into skills, so it doesn't see this 20:35:55 unless the "free" skill points from crosstraining actually affect the skill cost level 20:36:01 I don't think they do 20:36:05 It's based on total xp earned 20:36:12 Not where it's spent 20:37:24 -!- Surr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:37:39 !apt long 20:37:40 Long: Mi: 2!, HE: 2!, HO: 1, Mf: 1, Te: 1, LO: 1, Ha: 0, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, Vp: 0, Fo: 0, DD: 0, Na: 0, Ds: -1, VS: -1, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, DE: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Sp: -2, Ko: -2, Tr: -2, Og: -3*, Fe: N/A 20:37:42 !apt short 20:37:42 Short: Ha: 3!, Ko: 3!, HE: 2, Mf: 2, Mi: 1, Sp: 1, Vp: 1, Te: 1, Fo: 1, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, HO: 0, DE: 0, LO: 0, Na: 0, Ds: -1, VS: -1, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Tr: -2, Og: -4*, Fe: N/A 20:37:59 (why do fo still have 1 short blade apt) 20:38:07 mf and axes have the same thin as ko/long blades 20:38:12 wheals: are you going to argue with a bugman? 20:38:12 crate: yeah 20:38:28 * Grunt squashes the formicid like a bug!!!!!! 20:38:33 (afaict it was due to a tavern post without much of any good reason) 20:38:36 I forget if there are any instances of this besides those two, probably not 20:39:11 |amethyst: okay, so, the second patch i tried doesn't create any new bugs with the skillmenu 20:39:27 Who wants to figure out the difference in cost between training both skills to 27 in the two different orderings? 20:39:29 (that i can find) 20:39:46 -!- utrick has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 20:40:00 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: the one where you just pass true there? 20:40:16 the disabled skills still get a green +1 or green * as they were coded to (and as they do in the show: all mode), and no random green '*' is shown if you're in show: default because it never calculates a display line for that skill 20:40:19 I guess even with differential of 4 rather than 5, the situation is still weird because you should train short blades first because it is free and you might conceivably want to switch 20:40:20 yeah 20:40:21 -!- ebarrett has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:41 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: the issue is when you have throwing of 2.0 and no slings 20:40:47 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: and aren't carrying a sling 20:40:51 hmm 20:41:00 could merge blades 20:41:02 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: I haven't tested but it seems like your version would show a * on throwing 20:41:08 (joke) 20:41:09 because show_all, right 20:41:10 okay 20:41:11 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: even if slings isn't displayed in the menu at all 20:41:15 * floatingatoll tries something else 20:41:30 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: I'm trying a reorg that moves crosstrain_other into skill_menu.cc 20:41:31 really what is wrong with the crosstraining formula is that the order in which you train skills matters... but I don't think there is a good way of fixing this without completely changing the formula, and I'm not sure that is worth it 20:41:58 wheals: also merge axes and polearms into poleaxes for Mf 20:42:08 Could we just make training smarter? 20:42:28 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: so that it can call _show_skill 20:42:33 yeah 20:42:35 idea: make it use a max of (percentage of the other skill based on the xp differential, your actual skill) 20:42:36 case SKM_SHOW_DEFAULT: return you.can_train[sk] || you.skills[sk]; 20:42:42 if it can access .can_train, that woudl work too. 20:42:49 but _show_skill is better. 20:42:58 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:03 bh: so I think you basically want to make training long blades also increase short blades skill in this situation? 20:43:05 so it helps switching still but you don't ever gain any xp really? 20:43:13 elliptic: exactly 20:43:18 bh: one issue is that some chars actually don't want to train short blades, because of gift weighting 20:43:40 like if I wanted to play a long blade kobold of trog, I would already not train short blades 20:43:57 makes sense. That's a drag 20:44:25 Could we make acquirement smarter? :P 20:44:47 if i was more familiar with humor here, this is where i would say "loot 2.0" for amusement purposes. 20:44:51 base it on action count, of course! 20:44:52 Smarter than who? 20:44:58 wheals: time to go hit some plants 20:45:00 :P 20:45:15 Nostalgia for the days of victory dancing 20:45:17 (I have none) 20:45:27 the acquirement gods demand dance 20:46:04 wheals: I want acquirement to work like a shop. You get a set of items and you can pick one for free 20:46:21 acquirement is so often Scroll of Disappointment or Scroll of Spoilers 20:46:28 crosstraining doesn't have to involve skills. it could be done in the melee formulas by considering crosstrain skills in addition to weapon skill 20:46:43 make it "scroll of summon shop" and always acquire gold 20:46:57 buppy: so it would be invisible to the player? 20:47:08 we don't need more complicated things hidden in the melee formulas 20:47:12 elliptic: that's what i was getting at with my idea of an effective skill 20:47:19 |amethyst: i tried this naive change, but it seems the code doesn't flow that way. ~ && (you.skills[crosstrain_skills[i]] > 0 || show_zero || you.skills[crosstrain_skills[i]].can_train)) 20:47:39 (which is obvious on a second readthrough) 20:47:45 elliptic: I don't see how it's any worse than Ash or Heroism 20:47:56 those things are visible to the player 20:47:56 elliptic: that's true 20:48:05 yeah, i was thinking of something like that 20:48:06 sure, why not surface it in the same way? 20:48:24 New boots of flying are annoying as crap for merfolk... 20:48:42 Keanan1: don't wear 'em 20:48:56 well could crosstraining work like heroism then? 20:48:59 wasn't there a fix on mantis for that? 20:49:07 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8052 20:49:21 They're +2 and only 1 other set of boots exist and they're +0 (I'm tempted though) 20:49:23 oh. That *is* bothersome 20:49:57 I'm still not really sure how just making it change the effective skill would work though 20:50:15 because the whole point of crosstraining is that if you raise one skill to 14, raising the other one to 14 costs less xp 20:51:06 (In the shoals it's like "stop flying, move three steps, stop flying, move three steps, F* it, I'll just fly over the level and sacrifice the movement and dodge bonus *sigh*) 20:51:12 and if you make it so that having one skill at 14 and the other at 10 or whatever means that the second skill is effectively at 14, then how is this any better than the current system? 20:51:33 it will still suffer from the same issues with kobolds unless you actually change the formulas involved 20:52:37 if (skillB > skillA) { return skillB + (skillA - skillB) * discount } else { return skillA } 20:52:56 to cast it in the vaguest of terms 20:53:05 <|amethyst> what if that goes over 27 ? 20:53:27 |amethyst: There are no numbers above 27 20:53:33 er. 20:53:39 <|amethyst> oh 20:53:41 skillA + (skillB - skillA) * discount 20:54:20 <|amethyst> the way you originally wrote it wouldn't go over 27 either 20:54:21 I just don't see the advantage of using effective skill stuff if we are changing formulas anyway 20:54:37 <|amethyst> but wouldn't work right :) 20:54:45 Well and in that case why would you ever train the more expensive skill? 20:54:56 elliptic: skill, experience. Whichever. I just want to illustrate how this could be made to work 20:54:59 <|amethyst> Keanan1: because discount < 1.0 20:55:35 You wouldn't get screwed by being a n00b and training Long Blades before Short Blades 20:55:36 |amethyst: this fixes it for me, with long blades 2.1, short blades 0.0, and carrying items for both. 20:55:40 && (you.skills[crosstrain_skills[i]] > 0 || you.can_train[crosstrain_skills[i]] || show_zero)) 20:56:23 So instead of a training bonus, you'd get an effective skill level bonus proportional to the difference. 20:56:24 i wasn't sure if that satisfies your conditions for the Slings test, though. 20:56:33 -!- Zilis is now known as Hugrakkir 20:57:03 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: I think that should work, but I kind of don't like having that login in two places 20:57:17 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: logic 20:57:27 I guess all the formulas that don't care about order of training skills are going to involve something that isn't just effectively increasing an apt by 4 20:57:51 so handling it as a skill boost might be a bit better in that case 20:58:04 -!- Hugrakkir is now known as Zilis 20:58:08 glad we brought you around :) 20:58:10 |amethyst: agreed. so i'll note that it seems to work in the ticket (if i drop the short sword, the green star disappears along with Short Swords, in the default view, and is shown in the * view as before) 20:58:22 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: I think I'm close to having something 20:58:22 |amethyst: and then leave that as a "refactoring may be desirable" concern 20:58:30 -!- indspenc_ has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:58:40 * floatingatoll wants to get out of the way of the refactor train :) 20:58:51 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: well, this isn't that great of a refactoring 20:58:59 -!- caleba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:59 anyway I was never doubting that formulas exist that could be used :P any symmetric function of x and y that is between max(x,y) and x+y will work 20:59:02 <|amethyst> in that it makes two things extern that were static before :) 20:59:04 it's a bit more than I would be comfortable doing, though 20:59:08 my C++ is nonexistent 20:59:13 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:29 floatingatoll: just port crawl to rust 20:59:31 What happens when you have more than one crosstraining skill? 20:59:31 where x and y are the number of skill points needed to raise each skill individually to a given level 20:59:42 bh: i prefer my weapons in excellent condition 20:59:42 oh right, that's an additional complication 20:59:45 Keanan1: it would be like eating at the skill buffet 21:00:04 You get a bit from column a and a bit from column b? 21:00:26 You could discount more heavily or we could just let Draco make more vicious monsters to counteract the decrease in difficulty 21:00:35 (currently it costs x+y/2 or x/2+y depending on which skill you train first) 21:01:39 -!- Zilis is now known as Hugrakkir 21:02:20 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:26 i keep wishing for a graph with X-axis { 0..N } experience points and Y-axis skill level 21:02:38 uh, what's dpeg talking about by removing chunk eating 21:03:16 floatingatoll: such a graph doesn't really exist because raising skills to given levels also requires more xp later on 21:03:21 even for the same level of skill 21:03:21 <|amethyst> Lightli: turning everyone except Kobolds/Trolls/Ghouls/Vampires/etc into Spriggans 21:03:48 elliptic: yeah, i couldn't think of any sane way to show it without diving into 3-d surface charts 21:03:49 oh 21:03:50 (and then removing spriggans for being too indistinct <_< >_> <_< >_>) 21:04:03 03PleasingFungus02 {Grunt} 07* 0.14-a0-2991-ga5274fd: Refactored random_near_space(); fixed bugs 10(3 days ago, 5 files, 45+ 129-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a5274fd6dc55 21:04:03 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2992-ge6c7711: Credit a fungus. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e6c7711a3a75 21:04:03 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:10 give spriggans fast metab 3 to compensate 21:05:30 well, presumably humans would still be able to eat meat :P 21:05:42 just not chunks 21:06:27 !seen gammafunk 21:06:27 I last saw gammafunk at Thu Mar 6 02:17:00 2014 UTC (49m 27s ago) saying 'haha' on ##crawl-dev. 21:06:39 hoho 21:06:52 -!- Hugrakkir is now known as Zilis 21:06:55 hehe 21:06:55 gammafunk: sorry I'm not following the commit logs -- done anything with zombieform? 21:06:58 <|amethyst> Is there much point to keeping around the difference between carnivore and herbivore if it's just permafood for most races? 21:07:07 Don't bother doing anything with zombie form right now ,_< 21:07:08 <_< 21:07:11 heh, Grunt kind of warned me away from it 21:07:20 * Grunt warns you: It is cursed. 21:07:30 Grunt: 'eh? 21:07:54 I just wanted to say something with the "Grunt warns you:" prefix and that's the first thing that came to mind <_< 21:08:10 |amethyst: did you see my monster patch earlier, btw? Not really important, but something that's been bothering me for a while. 21:08:42 dancing weapon (05() | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 56 | AC/EV: 28/15 | Dam: 36 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 913 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 21:08:42 <|amethyst> %?? dancing weapon ; dagger unrand:axe_of_woe 21:08:43 I guess using min(x,y) + max(x,y) / 2 as a crosstraining formula would basically be equivalent to the current situation powerlevel-wise, and not be that hard to implement if we just replaced the +4 by the appropriate factor (which depends on apts) 21:08:56 dancing weapon (04() | Spd: 3 | HD: 15 | HP: 54 | AC/EV: 27/10 | Dam: 88 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 202 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 21:08:56 %?? dancing weapon ; choko unrand:dark_maul 21:08:59 good <3 21:09:00 Thanks! 21:09:00 <|amethyst> @?? dancing weapon ; dagger unrand:axe_of_woe 21:09:06 <|amethyst> oh right 21:09:14 bh: I think the idea might be cute, though; I'm just not sure if it will make it pass objections. 21:09:17 dancing weapon (10() | Spd: 10-20 | HD: 15 | HP: 5-56 | AC/EV: 2/19 | Dam: 8 | 11non-living, fighter, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 733 | Sz: small | Int: plant. 21:09:17 <|amethyst> %0.13? dancing weapon ; dagger unrand:axe_of_woe 21:09:29 (clearly make that display ∞ for Woe) 21:09:34 gammafunk: what's the problem with it? It's just another badform 21:09:49 gosh, what were the warnings I was given? 21:09:58 I think it was only "bh tried..." 21:10:20 oh, one thing 21:10:36 someone pointed out it might be nice if kirke was the only uniq that transformed the player 21:10:42 the maurice argument: one is enough 21:10:50 which is a fair point 21:11:04 ijyb.... 21:11:05 |amethyst: could just have three types of food: honeycomb, royal jelly, $fruit 21:11:22 meat simulacra noooooo 21:11:24 mnoleg lacking badform polymorph breaks my heart 21:11:40 (Mnoleg with polymorph might be amusing...) 21:11:51 buppy: Then make a patch : ) 21:11:53 (It could also go horribly horribly wrong, though.) 21:11:57 badform poly on any serious monster is a terrible idea yes 21:12:06 oh, so *pubby* gets to do it 21:12:06 (fortunately kirke is not a serious monster :)) 21:12:09 I see how it is 21:12:24 elliptic: I don't doubt you, but what's your reasoning behind that? 21:12:26 (also hogform is pretty tame as badforms go) 21:12:37 can pulsating lumps be given polymorph melee and made fast 21:12:38 (hog form aka "flee in terror" form) 21:12:56 "it's a bizarre slime support thing just like eyes" 21:12:58 reaverb: some badforms can be unavoidable death that late, since you can't use any items or spells 21:13:31 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:33 stuff like wispform or treeform is amusing and works okay for when jessica has a polymorph wand 21:13:45 it isn't fun or interesting in Pan or zot 21:13:45 hrm, well my idea was for a mid/early game ghoul, or something 21:13:53 ghoul purgy 21:14:38 we already have menkaure and grinder as necro uniques in early game, though 21:14:45 elliptic: Didn't realize some badforms were that bad. 21:14:53 and nergalle/josephine in mid game 21:14:59 so I'm not sure if there's a good place for it 21:15:06 name it josephine 21:15:08 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:14 yeah I guess that'd be one approach 21:15:19 !killratio josephine 21:15:22 josephine wins 2.496% of battles. 21:15:33 she's doing ok as-is, though 21:15:44 i do like that she has the "branch-based band" thing 21:16:00 I like josephine's band, but replacing her spelllist/species could be good 21:16:00 yeah, and taking away bolt of drain would be a bad idea 21:16:23 I guess it could be added; in any case it would be a fun badform, I think 21:16:29 it even could just show up through /poly 21:17:03 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:14 I mean, zombies are big now, right? We could make money this way 21:17:24 yes 21:17:47 I don't know what you intended for zombieform but it is hard for me to believe it would be worse than some of the current badforms 21:17:55 A non-gameplay quibble: zombieform crosses holiness boundaries which poly explicitly does not 21:17:59 no stairs sounds serious 21:18:04 maybe 21:18:17 i think those boundaries have been well and truly crossed already 21:18:21 not that i am a fan of this 21:18:27 Howso? 21:18:33 wisp form, tree form, etc 21:18:41 Oh, yeah 21:18:51 Haha, somehow I forgot this 21:18:56 (fr vapour form) 21:19:00 statue form's half-non-living-ness, even 21:19:05 !send wheals Air Walk 21:19:06 Sending Air Walk to wheals. 21:19:19 Josephine (16@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 69 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 11 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 989 | Sp: b.cold (3d17), agony, animate dead, simulacrum | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:19:19 %??josephine 21:19:25 ??spells that do not exist 21:19:25 spells that do not exist[1/2]: air walk, portal, maxwell's silver hammer, eringya's surprising bouquet, twist, symbol of torment, all divinations spells, banishment, teleport self, bolt of iron, ice shard, fling icicle, tomb of doroklohe, levitation, extension, bone shards, berserk, resist poison, tame beasts, alter self, orb of electrocution, tukima's vorpal blade, create noise 21:19:26 Can we give Josephine control undead? 21:19:38 (and obviously lich form but that one at least makes more sense as an exception) 21:19:49 bh: it wouldn't do anything in 95% of games 21:19:51 that sounds like not a very good monster spell 21:20:06 elliptic: sure, but when the player knows control undead, Josephine simply splats 21:20:08 of course, neither does simulacrum 21:20:45 give her bone shards 21:20:54 having control undead be good against a monster that comes with a band of undead seems like probably not a problem in any way? 21:20:54 bh: I hardly think she needs a spell as a clunky defense against one specific other spell 21:21:03 bh: that is sort of the point of control undead, though 21:21:08 And yes, that it is good against her seems kind of the point 21:21:25 but she's a necromancer? Shouldn't she be smarter than that? :) 21:21:31 I imagine it is really good, but that's partly because josephine herself is so weak compared with her band 21:21:37 Crawl monsters are not noted for their intelligence in several ways :P 21:21:45 I'd give her dispel undead before control undead at least 21:21:53 Yes 21:21:57 elliptic: now you're talking! :) 21:22:00 I don't know she needs that, but even so 21:22:02 mass dispel undead 21:22:08 (Also, Nergalle has that, no?) 21:22:12 Symbol of Dispelling 21:22:13 Nergalle (16o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 60 | AC/EV: 9/11 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(66) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 804 | Sp: b.draining (3d18), sum.spectral orcs, dispel undead (3d18), haste other, 04esc:death's door | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:22:13 %??nergalle 21:22:14 Nergalle (16o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 60 | AC/EV: 9/11 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(66) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 804 | Sp: b.draining (3d18), sum.spectral orcs, dispel undead (3d18), haste other, 04esc:death's door | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:22:14 %??nergalle 21:22:16 mmm 21:22:25 * bh is better than grunt. nee-ner, nee-ner 21:22:39 unknown monster: "josephine spell:dispell_undead" 21:22:39 %??josephine spell:dispell_undead 21:22:46 ??%?? 21:22:46 I don't have a page labeled %?? in my learndb. 21:22:47 * Grunt gestures. bh is cast into Pandemonium! 21:22:48 yeah, I'm not sure why nergalle has it 21:22:50 Josephine (16@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 69 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 11 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 989 | Sp: b.cold (3d17), agony, animate dead, simulacrum | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:22:50 %??josephine 21:22:55 josephine could easily have it instead 21:22:58 ... 21:23:02 No bolt of draining?? 21:23:03 <_< 21:23:12 Cold still goes through zombies okay 21:23:18 sadly agony does not 21:23:27 (I remembered Josephine having draining for some reason.) 21:23:31 (Maybe it's because...) 21:23:31 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:33 necromancer (16@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 28-53 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(53) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 614 | Sp: b.cold (3d18), agony, animate dead, simulacrum / b.fire (3d18), agony, invisibility, animate dead | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:23:33 %??necromancer 21:23:35 she used to i believe 21:23:40 ...oh, those don't have draining either. 21:23:45 %git HEAD^{/Josephine} 21:23:45 07DracoOmega02 * 0.13-a0-1001-g650cef2: Necromancer / vampire wizard band adjustments 10(10 months ago, 2 files, 17+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=650cef230dbc 21:23:45 she certainly didn't always have agony and simulacrum 21:23:51 because nergalle has it 21:23:52 yeah, those are new 21:23:55 Josephine (16@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 69 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 11 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 989 | Sp: b.cold (3d17), agony, animate dead, simulacrum | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:23:55 <|amethyst> %0.13?josephine 21:23:56 I want a necromancer who likes to cast inner flame. 21:23:57 Josephine (16@) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 69 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Dam: 11 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 1234 | Sp: b.cold (3d17), b.draining (3d14), animate dead, simulacrum | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 21:23:57 <|amethyst> %0.12?josephine 21:23:57 and they're the same colour 21:24:00 Well, 'new' 21:24:02 Josephine (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 69 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 11 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1286 | Sp: b.cold (3d17), b.draining (3d14), animate dead, teleport self. 21:24:02 <|amethyst> %0.9?josephine 21:24:06 hmm 21:24:10 oh, she did have b draining 21:24:10 %git HEAD^{/[Nn]ecromancer.*pell} 21:24:10 07tenofswords02 * 0.14-a0-2377-gf038af6: Condense Dr knight spell sets into ice+necro+misc, buff damage 10(5 weeks ago, 4 files, 41+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f038af694097 21:24:16 Maybe monsters should start reading ?immo 21:24:19 %git HEAD^{/[Nn]ecromancer.*pell}^^{/[Nn]ecromancer.*pell} 21:24:20 07DracoOmega02 * 0.13-a0-2229-g9f123c1: Give Agony to necromancer monsters 10(8 months ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f123c134f7e 21:24:34 ...Josephine has MST_NECROMANCER_I 21:25:37 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-2993-g1142d79: Show * crosstrain marker more often (floatingatoll, #8235) 10(15 minutes ago, 3 files, 43+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1142d7902410 21:25:39 hm 21:26:49 Incidentally, someone mentioned a while ago about giving Josephine ghostly fireball. It WOULD combo with her band 21:26:50 -!- bh has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:27:01 -!- Bamboomancer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:27:05 (That was me) 21:27:11 Ah, yes 21:27:15 <|amethyst> that reminds me, fix ?/sfireb 21:27:27 <|amethyst> err 21:27:37 <|amethyst> not that, &^Mfireb 21:27:54 -!- DrKe has quit [] 21:27:59 <|amethyst> though ?/sfireball showing a menu is questionable too 21:28:32 I think the idea is reasonable, anyway 21:28:33 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:50 clearly give josephine mst_draconian_knight_i >_> 21:28:50 <|amethyst> Hm 21:28:58 <|amethyst> how does ghostly fireball interact with player undead? 21:29:04 <|amethyst> enemies just don't cast it? 21:29:11 Yes 21:29:26 It does actually heal you if caught in the blast 21:29:30 But they won't aim it at you 21:29:33 <|amethyst> do they consider it helpful to their allies? 21:29:39 does it heal your allies? 21:29:47 Tracers take care of that, too 21:29:54 Um, to wheals 21:30:05 I don't think they will use it to heal explicitly if they cannot hurt you with it 21:30:15 <|amethyst> ah 21:30:35 <|amethyst> I hadn't looked at how it uses {friend,foe}_info 21:32:38 <|amethyst> ah, it does consider the spell nice to undead 21:33:08 <|amethyst> so, related to what wheals said, it would count hitting your undead allies against casting the spells 21:33:20 <|amethyst> s/pells/pell/ 21:33:22 Yes 21:33:28 That is what I meant to say 21:33:35 <|amethyst> but it's not utility 21:33:43 <|amethyst> which keeps them from casting it without a target 21:33:50 <|amethyst> without a foe I mean 21:33:51 Well, monsters generally need special code to actually aim at friendlies specifically 21:34:10 On revenants at least, doing so seems actively bad for them in many cases 21:34:15 Since if you're undead, they could dispel you instead 21:34:34 Which is likely to be more effective than healing some allies that are not in melee of you anyway 21:34:44 (Because if they were, they'd also probably heal you) 21:34:56 <|amethyst> ah, now I see the stuff in mon-cast.cc 21:35:22 <|amethyst> it will select those spells (haste other etc) because they're utility spells 21:35:48 <|amethyst> but then it still has to _set_allied_target and that only happens for those specifically-listed spells 21:35:59 -!- indspenceable has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:19 Yeah 21:36:37 <|amethyst> I guess otherwise it would target itself or 0,0 or its current "foe" or such 21:36:41 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:51 <|amethyst> (the last of which could be you if it's an ally) 21:37:15 <|amethyst> I haven't tried what happens there, with a needs-target utility spell when there is no foe 21:37:20 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:21 There's a bunch of things about monster targeting code is 'dumb' 21:37:40 And it doesn't help that tracers contain different information about monsters they affect compared to players they affect 21:37:42 s/targeting/spell/ 21:37:43 <_< 21:38:27 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: 21:38:30 So that a lot of 'can't affect this so don't try' code as applies to monster targets is in tracers, while regarding affecting players is in ms_waste_of_time in a more crude fashion 21:38:33 <|amethyst> %git b78098f 21:38:34 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-2611-gb78098f: Don't prompt for self-hits while targetting \FD. 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b78098f4675f 21:38:36 Since the tracer has no way to access this 21:39:03 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: oh, you meant something else 21:39:23 Yes, I was wondering how that commit was related, except in the general context of targeting code ^^; 21:39:29 |amethyst: i opened a new game with your commit, there was a short sword one step away, and it works perfectly. thank you! 21:39:51 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: that was a case where the stuff to track whether we hit a player is separate from the stuff to track whether we hit some other foe or ally 21:40:15 <|amethyst> DracoOmega: in this case for player- rather than monster-cast spells 21:40:39 <|amethyst> floatingatoll: thanks for spotting and investigating it 21:40:44 sure thing, sorry for the bug noise 21:41:30 (i now have more bugs fixed than wins :) 21:43:45 |amethyst: Ah, fair enough 21:44:05 But yeah, some of that code is a complex mess that is pretty much too deeply engrained to realistically want to 'fix' 21:44:23 <|amethyst> heh 21:44:53 <|amethyst> For the monster stuff, though, I am thinking about a monster spell list (and therefore spell choice) rewrite 21:45:02 That seems a bit more feasable 21:45:04 And would be nice 21:45:19 <|amethyst> the pain will be dealing with existing monsters 21:45:24 Ripping out targeting and tracer stuff feels... a bit awful to contemplate 21:45:45 <|amethyst> because having it give the same frequencies as the current code seems infeasible 21:45:47 And almost certain to break multiple things 21:45:51 |amethyst: thank you for reminding me that I wanted to put that on the 0.15 list :) 21:46:14 Well, current exact frequencies aren't sacrosanct just because they are what we currently have 21:46:35 I imagine you can get fairly close enough anyway 21:46:52 DracoOmega, incidentally, I just tried rebasing summons_adjustments locally and it is still mostly clean (you'll need to --skip a commit which apparently isn't being detected as already being present, but the other changes are trivial to resolve). 21:47:04 <|amethyst> I mean things like first versus second versus third spell 21:47:30 -!- Pisano has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:35 <|amethyst> I guess it would be good to figure out what the current code does first 21:47:59 <|amethyst> I mean, I'm looked over it, but not calculated probabilities or anything like that 21:48:15 "I guess it would be good to figure out what the current code does first" 21:48:24 The legacy of spell slots 21:48:26 1learn add crawl_development 21:48:51 Sometimes figuring out what current code does is actually harder than just replacing it with something sensible :P 21:49:02 I gave up on trying to figure out what 'average' damage for a poison application actually meant 21:49:16 And just tried to make a replacement that was sane on its own 21:49:39 (todo coerce more people into poking at deterministic_poison so that it can get trunked) 21:50:21 does everyone use one repo for all there branch work (and ccache), or several? Do you have a rule that you only push from a specific repo? 21:50:21 * wheals trumpets! wheals trunk-slaps Grunt! 21:50:50 s/there/their/ 21:50:56 hrm, the vault as I've edited it here uses numspells:2 but the randbook only has one spell (ring of flames) 21:50:58 <|amethyst> I have one repo 21:51:04 I think that summons_adjustments can probably be merged too, pretty much. I've seen no strong oppositions to it in general, a bunch of positive feedback, things seem relatively sane in terms of power level (enough for trunk anyway) 21:51:11 <|amethyst> tenofswords: what's the spec? 21:51:17 welllllll 21:51:22 ITEM: randbook numspells:2 title:Dhcmrlchtdj 21:51:32 oh that vault? 21:51:33 (look, that's not my fault) 21:51:34 * Grunt hits wheals with an ankus! 21:52:01 (I'm just making it more accurate to the story and more interesting as a vault) 21:52:02 fr: elephant slaying ego 21:52:10 elephant _taming_ ego 21:52:11 I might have even done it tonight, but I am far too fatigued to trust myself with making decisions (or maybe even fixing merge conflicts :P) 21:52:13 DracoOmega: this is why I was poking at rebasing it <_< 21:52:16 Hehe 21:52:24 * wheals pokes Grunt with an ankus. 21:52:29 Be my guest ^^; 21:52:31 * Grunt seems unharmed. 21:52:52 I guess it'll be compensation enough for having more nonsense books 21:52:54 fr: elephant form. like hog-form, but removes maprot in labs 21:53:03 -!- simmarine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:07 Rebase every branch! Merge, branch! 21:53:07 wheals: does it let the player trample things? 21:53:07 Hahahaha 21:53:38 hey i have 2 branches that i was going to merge in a bit too 21:53:44 really 21:53:53 MarvinPA: do tell? 21:53:53 is removing darts feasible for 0.14 21:53:53 this sounds like a recipe for absolutely nothing going wrong at all 21:53:55 and here I was going to rush in random stabs 21:53:59 MarvinPA: Haha 21:54:06 ...and I have kind of 3 I'm about to push... 21:54:08 Let's see.. deck weighting removal and what else? 21:54:08 (racial armour removal and nemelex deck weighting removal) 21:54:10 i guess i have just two 2 21:54:10 (I thin-- 21:54:11 Yes. 21:54:13 *two too 21:54:16 I was about to say that those what those were :b 21:54:16 *2 too 21:54:18 rip wonderscumming 21:54:18 rip 21:54:23 Poor elven ring mail T.T 21:54:28 |amethyst: Looks like CAO and CBRO need the print-webtiles-options stuff in crawl-git-launcher.sh 21:54:44 hmm server update time is ~1 hour from now, right? 21:54:48 ~2 21:54:50 maybe i'll wait till after that 21:54:51 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:54:52 "just in case" 21:55:07 What did you do with Beogh, incidentally? 21:55:08 MarvinPA: ive been thinking about something that came up earlier 21:55:17 and you wanted invis removal from the en book 21:55:25 Since racial armour modifiers are pretty important there 21:55:26 I can't sense any conflicts between the two pairs of branches, but probably MarvinPA's should go first >_> 21:55:36 You can't BOTH go second :P 21:55:58 in the patch at the moment (it's chrisoelmueller's patch) beogh gives a slightly lower bonus but for all armour 21:55:59 (says DracoOmega as though he's uninvolved in this) 21:56:00 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:16 which reminds me that it needs a better message than "beogh supports the use of orcish armour" 21:56:18 Well, if I am doing the merging myself, I am definitely waiting to be more awake 21:56:35 MarvinPA: "Beogh supports the use of armour worn by orcs." 21:56:47 orcish weapons got no compensation for beogh but that was a pretty small effect even at max piety 21:56:51 I have summons_adjustments rebased here; it'd probably be easier for me to rebase it on top of what MarvinPA is doing than needing to start from scratch. 21:57:16 (And yes, please wait for the server rebuilds <_<) 21:57:19 well, at least there are only four vaults in mini_monsters.des that refer to racial armour 21:57:40 good for reducing me going insane and stabbing at it randomly 21:57:52 MarvinPA: what branch are you about to push 21:57:58 simmarine_: oh i thought you just left mid-saying something but you're still here 21:58:03 haha 21:58:12 well it looks like things are busy here 21:58:14 tenofswords * 0.15-a0: Remove all vaults. [...] 21:58:14 so i might want to wait a bit 21:58:19 Somehow 'Beogh makes you slightly better with armour in general' feels kind of... I don't know... like it could be better, I guess? 21:58:27 grunt: that's not what stabbing means! 21:58:48 (You catch the helpless vaults completely off guard. You carve the vaults like a ham!!!!!!!!!! You kill the vaults!) 21:59:02 welp you just murdered an entire branch 21:59:06 "Beogh aids your use of armour." 21:59:15 If only Crawl were Sil 21:59:22 so you could actually get 15 ! 21:59:23 * Grunt attacks Basil as he passes by. 21:59:27 Grunt: I didn't mean in terms of phrasing, but effect 21:59:31 Oh. 21:59:33 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:42 Not immediately sure anything to suggest, though 22:00:31 <|amethyst> !tell johnstein This should fix spectator options on CBRO (needs a publish): http://dobrazupa.org/patches/0001-Handle-print-webtiles-options-in-launch-scripts.patch 22:00:31 |amethyst: OK, I'll let johnstein know. 22:00:58 <|amethyst> Medar: thanks, I had thought I pulled that to CAO already but apparently not 22:01:44 <|amethyst> !tell johnstein (or that one is in my github repo as 42e513c732 22:01:44 |amethyst: OK, I'll let johnstein know. 22:01:59 yeah i agree it's not the best flavour-wise 22:02:00 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:02:09 fr: beogh gives an Orcish fireball, which hurst opponants but heals Orcs. 22:02:28 -!- simmarine_ is now known as simmarine 22:02:33 Maybe what will ultimately be best is just to replace it wholesale with something else 22:02:40 Not for 0.14 necessarily, but eventually 22:03:10 yeah 22:03:24 -!- []J has quit [] 22:03:52 Bonus for metal armour would be a bit better IMO, but only if smith-god doesn't happen. 22:04:01 It looks like some games are still showing up twice on the akrasiac.org page 22:04:02 where would i file a bug about CAO sorting the 'Place' column D:1,D:10,D:2 instead of D:1,D:2,D:10? 22:04:14 I feel there may be ambiguity about metal and non-metal 22:04:22 -!- asdftest has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:26 Really? 22:04:29 games from ckr, I mean 22:04:29 <|amethyst> nonethousand: which akrasiac.org page? scoring or webtiles lobby? 22:04:33 <|amethyst> oh 22:04:39 what other font families are available on webtiles tile_font_*_family ? 22:04:39 Are gloves non-metal? But gauntlets of war are metal, even in the same slot? 22:04:40 <|amethyst> scoring then 22:04:42 |amethyst: the scoring page, 22:04:43 besides "monospace" 22:04:46 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/blinkherb.html 22:04:48 <|amethyst> hrm 22:05:10 Is the Crown of Diawhatever metal? 22:05:20 DracoOmega: Hmm, right. 22:05:22 <|amethyst> nonethousand: not sure how to fix that 22:05:31 <|amethyst> nonethousand: short of rebuilding the whole database 22:05:36 <|amethyst> nonethousand: which takes about a week 22:05:37 crown of diatoms 22:05:39 <|amethyst> :( 22:05:44 crown of Dyrovepreva 22:05:47 makes giant amoebae friendly 22:05:48 You all make me sad :( 22:05:48 Isn't dyro gone? 22:05:51 ??dyrovepreva 22:05:51 crown of dyrovepreva[1/1]: +3 unrandart hat {Hunger rElec Int+2 SInv}. "jewelled bronze crown". A large crown of dull bronze, set with a dazzling array of gemstones. The hunger effect is 1/4 of a ring of hunger. 22:05:52 It's still around! 22:05:56 no, but amoebae are 22:06:05 and the vault is changed 22:06:06 |amethyst: it's not a terribly pressing issue, of course, but it does mess up some of the ranking pages 22:06:17 |amethyst: best to do it pre-tourney... 22:06:25 since it doubles the total score calc 22:06:27 |amethyst: yeah, probably requires rebuilding database to fix :/ 22:06:28 is this actually a question that nobody has an answer to? 22:06:29 lol 22:06:51 wheals: well, people should look at tourney pages during tourney anyway :) 22:06:55 ??rcfile 22:06:55 rcfile[1/4]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt;hb=HEAD 22:06:58 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 22:07:14 <|amethyst> asdftest: doesn't the name of a font work? 22:07:21 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:07:29 <|amethyst> asdftest: like Consolas 22:07:31 asdftest: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt;hb=HEAD#l1863 22:07:33 <|amethyst> or whatever 22:07:34 read from there 22:07:57 <|amethyst> wheals: err 22:08:00 and for webtiles the answer is what fonts your local browser has available, I believe 22:08:13 not what the server has, since the server isn't rendering them, your browser is 22:08:15 oh, webtiles 22:08:21 i see 22:09:37 * Grunt stares at summons_adjustments for a moment. 22:09:54 hopefully it's not staring back 22:10:05 The only thing there which really needs a tile that someone's not already working on is a spell icon for Forceful Dismissal, I think. 22:10:08 I was wondering whather I should I have mentioned that in options_guide, but couldn't find good wording. 22:10:20 (Well, I hope we get a better mana viper tile for a proper Summon Mana Viper icon...) 22:10:33 Yes, no offense to your art skills :P 22:10:35 <|amethyst> Medar: maybe give an example with Comic Sans :) 22:10:43 I wasn't trying very hard with that particular monster :b 22:10:49 (The shock serpent turned out a lot better!) 22:11:07 |amethyst: That's my April fools idea, default everything to Comic Sans 22:11:07 fr: a rule about using _ or - in branches 22:11:08 Where is Qbert Jeorg....the snake thing 22:11:13 Let me tell you, it isn't pretty, I tried 22:11:16 Jorumngandr is floating in limbo right now. 22:11:20 er 22:11:21 Jormungandr 22:11:24 (I can't type right now <_<) 22:11:27 fr: a rule about using _ or - in file names 22:11:51 As long as we have *a* snake unique (which we do), I'm happy. 22:11:52 or no seperation at all, of course 22:12:07 (Snake, not snake, i.e. the branch, not the genus) 22:12:14 * geekosaur wonders if that includes figuring out an escape that sets font in console (at least some terminal programs support it!) 22:12:15 (poor Aizul) 22:12:28 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:37 %git 22:12:38 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-2993-g1142d79: Show * crosstrain marker more often (floatingatoll, #8235) 10(62 minutes ago, 3 files, 43+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1142d7902410 22:12:42 no love for crypt 22:12:49 (move murray to crypt) 22:12:50 !send wheals Khufu 22:12:50 Sending Khufu to wheals. 22:12:58 he can be in tomb, no? 22:13:00 (I guess Khufu is more of a Tomb unique <_<) 22:13:02 !vault uniq_khufu 22:13:02 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des;hb=HEAD#l358 22:13:07 either 22:13:24 <|amethyst> crypt description needs editing 22:13:42 <|amethyst> (still mentions Forest) 22:13:48 Oh, I'll do that. 22:14:11 <|amethyst> Also, maybe Forest and its staircase could have their descs removed? 22:14:48 <|amethyst> (db_lint complains currently, because gather_branches doesn't see forest, because it's in a version #ifdef) 22:15:21 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-2994-g38a56b4: Remove a now-unused quote. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=38a56b488266 22:15:59 <|amethyst> tiledef_lint shows a lot of unused stuff, most of them related to vine segments 22:20:27 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2995-g5c32a58: Remove some now-unused branch and feature descriptions. 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 19-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5c32a58d9d66 22:21:15 |amethyst: a couple of those are related to some wizlab things; I'll do the change necessary to make those used. 22:22:52 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:54 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: hm, looks like you accidentally removed one spear tile too many? 22:25:15 beogh ability: adjacent friendly orcs may jump in front of attacks that would hit you 22:25:17 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: not the tile itself, but in dc-items.txt 22:26:40 oh hm 22:26:42 yeah, looks like it 22:27:33 <|amethyst> and there were too battle-axe tiles you forgot to move to UNUSED 22:27:42 <|amethyst> I can do it or you can, preference? 22:28:45 hmm i'm mid-rebase so if you could that'd be great 22:29:01 <|amethyst> no problem 22:29:05 (all your rebase are belong to MarvinPA) 22:29:08 * Grunt dies. 22:29:43 thanks, much appreciated :) 22:29:46 wait 22:29:56 <|amethyst> anyone know what's up with short_sword_slant3 ? 22:29:57 has Forest officially been removed in a commit yet? 22:30:04 <|amethyst> I don't know how doll tiles work 22:30:07 |amethyst: huh 22:30:17 lemme look 22:30:19 Because if we're removing all the stuff behind it, we might as well finish the job before .14 hits 22:30:32 (title the commit "Burn down Forest") 22:30:43 %git HEAD^{/Forest} 22:30:44 07wheals02 * 0.14-a0-2950-gbe29d66: Purge some references to Forest. 10(4 days ago, 15 files, 34+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=be29d668379c 22:30:52 |amethyst: unused afaik 22:31:09 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: I don't know how doll tiles work 22:31:17 <|amethyst> ontoclasm: I mean, could we make it used? 22:31:20 oh 22:31:21 yes 22:31:27 It hasn't been removed technically yet; there still might be games in which you can enter it 22:31:43 (old ones clearly) 22:31:44 make a short sword unrand 22:32:06 <|amethyst> Lightli: right, but the only real way to prevent that is to do a major save bump 22:32:07 ratskin sword 22:32:29 ontoclasm: by the way, roctavian mentioned on tavern that he thought some of the racial weapon tiles might be better than the standard tiles and could swap places with them 22:32:36 yeah, i saw that 22:32:40 <|amethyst> Lightli: it won't be the case with 0.14 release on the servers, because there won't be any old games to transfer 22:32:42 you could just have the stairs to the forest lead to the crypt instead :v 22:32:43 i'll look into it when i get a chance 22:32:58 (and i'm pretty sure that's safe to do without breaking things like i did if the tiles are just swapped :P) 22:33:04 hah 22:33:06 oh, so we'll actually have a save compat bump? 22:33:07 yes 22:33:17 <|amethyst> Lightli: not before 0.14, no 22:33:18 doubt it 22:33:21 <|amethyst> Lightli: maybe one day 22:33:45 <|amethyst> personally I think if we break save compat again we should put in place mechanisms to make sure we don't have to as often 22:33:52 <|amethyst> changing the way we marshall enums, etc 22:34:21 That's not an "if"; that's a "when". 22:34:37 <|amethyst> yeah 22:35:32 <|amethyst> then again 22:35:38 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:58 <|amethyst> We've done a pretty good job of avoiding unplanned breaks 22:36:13 <|amethyst> sometimes at the cost of sanity 22:36:15 I think it's good to do it periodically just to tidy up code, frankly 22:36:22 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:25 Even if we could theoretically avoid it forever 22:36:50 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2996-g4c31b69: Allow vault monster tiles to overwrite constructed monster tiles. 10(77 seconds ago, 2 files, 13+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4c31b69bc54d 22:36:51 i wonder what the oldest running game is 22:37:10 i.e. the one started farthest back that can still be kept updated 22:37:19 im sure a lm command could figure that out 22:37:23 yeah 22:37:23 !lm * alpha alive 1 22:37:29 1/39129. [2013-04-01 00:47:57] Dassem the Destroyer (L16 DsWz of Vehumet) entered the Elven Halls on turn 39989. (Orc:3) 22:37:41 !lm * alpha alive 1 x=cv 22:37:44 -!- DrKe has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:37:47 1/39132. [2013-04-01 00:47:57] [cv=0.13-a] Dassem the Destroyer (L16 DsWz of Vehumet) entered the Elven Halls on turn 39989. (Orc:3) 22:37:53 i thought recent doesn't go back far enough for that 22:38:00 of course, alive is new-ish 22:38:02 and alive requires recent? 22:38:06 !kw alive 22:38:06 Keyword: alive => recent ktyp= type!=crash 22:38:10 oh 22:38:20 !lm * ktyp= type!=crashalive 1 x=cv 22:38:25 oops 22:38:29 1/139338. [2007-04-07 05:55:57] [cv=0.2] jarmok the Ducker (L6 ) entered the Ecumenical Temple on turn 3083. (Temple) 22:38:32 -!- bencryption has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 22:38:35 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:42 <|amethyst> wheals: that will get every game that never ended 22:38:49 !lm * ktyp= type!=crash 1 alpha cv>0.11 22:38:53 <|amethyst> even if it can't be transferred to current trunk 22:38:54 -!- utrick has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:56 1/46267. [2012-08-12 10:38:29] tempopwn the Insei (L2 OpWn of Okawaru) became a worshipper of Okawaru on turn 1501. (D:2) 22:38:58 -!- kait has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:32 can you get start dates from lm 22:39:39 probably 22:39:45 !lm * ktyp= type!=crash 1 alpha cv>0.11 x=start 22:39:52 1/46280. [2012-08-12 10:38:29] [start=2012-08-12 10:34:36 [20120712103436S]] tempopwn the Insei (L2 OpWn of Okawaru) became a worshipper of Okawaru on turn 1501. (D:2) 22:40:03 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:47 -!- utrick has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:32 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2997-gbc4d0d0: Move some unused tiles and remove references to them. 10(4 minutes ago, 7 files, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc4d0d0735e6 22:41:33 MarvinPA: it was about possibly turning vulnerability into a spell of some form... reducing your + monster mr portion. the idea is that some hexes already have some sort of downside (inner flame, ledas, silence) 22:41:48 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv~~0.14 s=cv 22:41:52 1097673 milestones for * (lg:cv~~0.14): 1087312x 0.14-a, 9457x 0.13-a, 904x 0.12-a 22:42:13 grunt: you didn't fix the sequell line or the statue's summons or the comment aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 22:42:15 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv~~0.14 s=cv x=cdist(gid) 22:42:21 and the only things that care about mr that come to mind are hexes or wands that check mr... but i dont think people really rely on confusion or paralysis wands after early game or so, so i think the mr thing on vulnerability isnt very explored as a feature 22:42:42 1097690 milestones for * (lg:cv~~0.14): 1087329x 0.14-a [174931], 9457x 0.13-a [419], 904x 0.12-a [20] 22:43:17 yred/haunt phantasmal warriors, because people use hexes with those right 22:43:19 i thought 0.11 could load in 0.14? 22:43:22 <|amethyst> 20 people have transferred 0.12 trunk games into 0.14 trunk and then died 22:43:29 <|amethyst> wheals: 0.11 release but not trunk 22:43:35 simmarine: hmm, i'm not sure if that would work out as a big enough downside for letting you have frequent access to vuln though? 22:43:36 huh 22:43:38 <|amethyst> wheals: in fact, not very early 0.12 trunk either 22:43:44 yeah, i read about that 22:43:56 MarvinPA: yes im not sure so far... its just a couple minutes worth of thought 22:44:02 <|amethyst> wheals: and there won't be release-to-trunk transfers on the server 22:44:09 later on there are many enemies who check mr, not to mention how crowded areas are starting to get 22:44:12 <|amethyst> wheals: so it's possible, but only relevant offline 22:44:13 -!- Kraito has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:17 yeah 22:44:30 clearly should couple summon mana viper with vuln 22:44:31 there are a lot of cool hexes that it would be nice to encourage use of, definitely 22:44:34 which means using it would be much more dangerous (though not actually a bad thing to have it taper off) 22:44:44 -!- turnerjer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:45:11 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv~~0.13-a s=cv 22:45:14 812617 milestones for * (lg:cv~~0.13-a): 805752x 0.13-a, 6863x 0.12-a, 2x 0.12 22:45:18 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv~~0.12-a s=cv 22:45:20 662018 milestones for * (lg:cv~~0.12-a): 660080x 0.12-a, 1938x 0.11-a 22:45:26 <|amethyst> hmm 22:45:42 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv=0.13-a cv=0.12 22:45:45 2. [2013-05-29 23:10:58] Corin the Skirmisher (L5 CeFi) killed Edmund on turn 2073. (D:4) 22:45:50 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv=0.13-a cv=0.12 -log 22:45:52 Corin, XL2 DsAK, T:1161: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Corin/morgue-Corin-20130601-054659.txt 22:46:25 <|amethyst> !lm * lg:cv=0.13-a cv=0.12 1 22:46:27 1/2. [2013-05-29 23:07:51] Corin the Skirmisher (L3 CeFi) killed Jessica on turn 1374. (D:3) 22:47:04 <|amethyst> !lm * cszo 1 22:47:09 1/2057168. [2012-08-13 04:33:12] neil the Chopper (L1 HuBe) abandoned Trog on turn 0. (D:1) 22:47:24 <|amethyst> no idea what's going on with Corin's game 22:47:32 <|amethyst> it was never saved, much less transferred 22:47:55 <|amethyst> oh, no, it was 22:47:56 am imagining dith shadow mimic using strip resistance for hexes instead of not doing anything for hexes in a manner wimilar to shadow bolt/shard 22:48:25 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:32 <|amethyst> but 0.13-a0-1108-gaf454e1 to 0.13-a0-1358-g20c23f8 so still no clue 22:48:34 It would need to realistically act FIRST in that case, wouldn't it? 22:48:45 ...heh, right 22:48:48 Or if would apply -MR after you had just checked their MR 22:49:07 clearly meant for multiple attempts! 22:49:22 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49:46 if you only try once and it works then you clearly don't need further aide 22:50:16 Well sure. But you'll probably try and fail :P 22:52:27 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-2998-gb9fb697: Restore randart spear tile; move extra battleaxes to UNUSED. 10(4 minutes ago, 5 files, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b9fb697d0e18 22:52:35 ...huh, I thought fhe arga vault used the ddbe tile, though I suppose the vault needs revision anyway 22:52:54 I'm going to adjust that vault after MarvinPA's branches land (since it removes the race: tags from there). 22:53:15 <|amethyst> hm 22:53:17 fair enough 22:53:32 <|amethyst> it would be nicer if tileidx_enchant_equ used a different order 22:53:47 <|amethyst> if there are three, it's normal, ego, randart 22:53:57 <|amethyst> but if there are five it's normal shiny runed glowing randart 22:54:16 <|amethyst> much better I think would be normal shiny randart runed glowing or something along those lines 22:54:41 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:52 <|amethyst> hm 22:55:08 <|amethyst> maybe not "much better"; I guess I can see the reason for the current system 22:55:10 in a manner similar to minmay's tengu/elf cuts I wonder about the possibility of not using plain deep dwarves as real enemies, although some vaults would be quite hard to salvage at that point 22:55:15 <|amethyst> since randart is always last 22:55:30 did the tengu/elf cuts get pushed? 22:55:39 bye bye tere 22:55:40 tenofswords: the solution is to do what i did and make them vault monsters 22:55:45 duh 22:55:48 no, I'll do that in a day or two 22:55:53 ah ok 22:55:59 gnome (12g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 16-38 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 130 | Sz: small | Int: normal. 22:55:59 %??gnome 22:56:00 yeah i am in favour of not using deep dwarves in vaults either 22:56:02 wheals: they already are!!! 22:56:12 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:16 tenofswords: didn't I remove plain deep dwarves from vaults in that patch, too? 22:56:26 if not, then I meant to :P 22:56:39 is there any reason to use deep dwarves instead of "dwarf"s ever? 22:57:02 Put a dd in lightli_too_deep 22:57:02 well i don't think "dwarf"s should be used in vaults either :P 22:57:19 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2999-g8b11495: Finish the set of blademaster offhand weapon tiles. 10(2 minutes ago, 7 files, 12+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8b1149591b38 22:57:20 but yeah plain deep dwarves are even worse i guess 22:59:01 -!- Ianjohn has quit [] 23:01:04 -!- Ianjohn has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:01:50 I have no idea how food vaults using player species monsyers arose as a theme but I guess it can just become a spar or koar 23:02:38 The artificer vault can go away, AFAIC. 23:02:47 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:02:50 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 23:02:55 (That specific vault was from Dwarf back when Dwarf was a thing-to-be.) 23:03:14 there's one with rods 23:03:44 right, I remember suggesting its use as a food vault when food vaults were being made a thing 23:03:54 <|amethyst> 0.15 plan: re-add MD as monsters only, and give the dwarf branch to them 23:04:21 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:04:34 <|amethyst> with lots of z-levels 23:04:40 use md as bailey inhabitants 23:04:49 -!- Piginabag has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:05:59 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 23:06:15 Dwarf:729 23:06:28 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: thump] 23:06:29 (portal to hell at the very bottom, surrounded by lava) 23:06:44 making "tengu" an unthing sounds like a good idea 23:06:45 Portal to Abyss:27 23:07:15 free crystal plate armour in vestibule if you enter from there 23:07:27 oh they don't spawn anywhere 23:07:31 good i guess 23:08:08 (If we're going to do the deep dwarf thing, change death knights to just death knights while we're at it.) 23:08:49 @ bikeshedding time whoooo 23:12:52 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:16:00 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:19:09 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:32 yay, removing dd enemies 23:21:50 and I see the changing dddk to just dk idea is being brought up again 23:22:03 wheals: You mean vanilla tengu monsters or the entire species? 23:22:34 the monster, but i now see it doesn't spawn 23:22:50 could make DDDK into HODK!! 23:22:56 MiDK 23:22:57 or, just normal orc i guess 23:23:09 !lg * dk won s=char 23:23:10 374 games for * (dk won): 52x MiDK, 45x DsDK, 32x MfDK, 29x HODK, 22x TrDK, 16x CeDK, 15x NaDK, 14x HuDK, 14x OgDK, 12x DDDK, 12x DrDK, 10x GhDK, 9x MDDK, 9x SpDK, 8x TeDK, 8x MuDK, 7x LODK, 7x KoDK, 6x HaDK, 6x DgDK, 6x VpDK, 5x DEDK, 5x SEDK, 5x OpDK, 5x HEDK, 4x DjDK, 3x FeDK, 3x KeDK, 3x FoDK, 2x GrDK 23:23:14 (see?) 23:23:17 mmm 23:23:24 just replace them all with black sun 23:23:27 er, pink suns 23:23:48 (why are black suns pink) 23:23:51 both dd and te used to spawn in abyss until I cut them from there 23:24:10 remember when there were like 6-7 types of dd enemy? 23:24:30 non-light magenta should be used, yes 23:24:43 lightli: remember trollkronor 23:24:54 no 23:25:03 they aren't really pink, except that i set up my rcfile to make the player glyph into the corresponding enemy 23:25:03 witches 23:25:08 The idea behind the colours was that base demonspawn were nonbright colours and nonbase demonspawn were bright colours. 23:25:13 so, when it's bolded, it looks pinker 23:25:34 ah, logical on both counts 23:26:02 Fortunately we have few enough of each to make that possible (chaos champions notwithstanding). 23:26:08 could make black suns lightred, at least that would be sun colour 23:26:15 (...because really, what other colour are you going to use >_>) 23:26:57 xom's favourite colour is obviously... 23:27:18 ETC_RANDOM 23:27:48 i wonder if any "screw with people" rcfiles use elven brick 23:27:53 that would be great 23:27:55 -!- poopfist42 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:04 etc disco 23:28:08 ...that would be dumb as a brick. 23:28:25 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:04 -!- Kraito has quit [] 23:32:34 -!- Keanan1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:04 -!- Escalator has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:13 -!- Mushboom has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:42 03gammafunk02 07[op-crusher] * 0.14-a0-3000-g8c3ca56: Octopode Crusher: An octopode warrior that throws your weight around. 10(38 minutes ago, 9 files, 165+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8c3ca5644d77 23:38:49 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:41:43 New branch created: invis_fixes (1 commit) 23:41:43 03gammafunk02 07[invis_fixes] * 0.14-a0-3000-g8737f81: Fix various issues with invisible monster indicators. 10(29 hours ago, 8 files, 212+ 74-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8737f81ec465 23:42:14 |amethyst: If you still wanted to look at the invis cleanup, the invis_fixes branch has the latest version now 23:43:11 -!- indspenceable has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:43:55 "to allow monsters that go invisible in LOS to always get some an invisible indicator." 23:43:58 -!- indspenceable has joined ##crawl-dev 23:45:03 spellcheck can't catch that, no fair! 23:45:49 the fact that I had to write novel to describe everything didn't help 23:47:29 this one's for Grunt... 23:47:37 ??? 23:47:37 I don't have a page labeled ? in my learndb. Did you mean: !, #, *, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, ~. 23:48:07 New branch created: dazzling_ghosts (2 commits) 23:48:08 03gammafunk02 07[dazzling_ghosts] * 0.14-a0-3000-g963d06e: Generalize and clean up some beam initialization code. 10(14 hours ago, 3 files, 60+ 56-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=963d06ebe59d 23:48:08 03gammafunk02 07[dazzling_ghosts] * 0.14-a0-3001-g0ab0818: Allow ghost casting of dazzling spray (Grunt). 10(69 minutes ago, 7 files, 74+ 23-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0ab081802af0 23:48:09 nice query 23:48:24 * Grunt is dazzled! 23:48:25 -!- Keanan1 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:47 -!- Pisano has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:52:50 Had to update that commit message, since we can't have incorrect grammar, can we? 23:53:05 03gammafunk02 07[invis_fixes] * 0.14-a0-3000-ga4c65eb: Fix various issues with invisible monster indicators. 10(29 hours ago, 8 files, 212+ 74-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a4c65eba2591 23:53:06 how good is an enslaved soul op crusher 23:53:12 hrm, not sure 23:53:32 It has icicle and it can throw a dude away from you 23:54:05 What I'd like to do is make the landing choosing AI try to throw the victim so as to land near hostile monsters, when possible 23:54:31 That, and make it have an animation 23:54:42 I think just repeating the victiim tile over the path would do 23:55:02 (and add the ! status indicator to this tile) 23:55:56 fun times 23:57:14 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:01 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:59:09 -!- TAS-2012v has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:28 tenofswords: I'm not sure if it'd best to keep ordinary octopodes in depths water or not 23:59:42 I've kept them there in the branch 23:59:55 hmmm, not sure myself