00:01:51 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2618-g5301534 (34) 00:03:29 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:16 draining is purely subtractive, right 00:04:25 What do you mean? 00:04:39 it's just -0.6 to each skill or whatever 00:04:46 instead of some percentage of the skill 00:04:53 There is a flat and a proportional componant 00:05:00 ah, ok 00:05:13 The flat one is stronger overall, but the proportional one is not irrelevant 00:05:59 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-2618-g5301534 (34) 00:07:58 I guess 3000 draining means all your skills are at exactly -30 :P 00:11:44 Haha 00:12:00 Important trivia 00:14:18 wow, shadow form only gives 25 draining? 00:14:36 Shadow form drains you? 00:14:43 Yes, also 25 is basically irrelevant 00:14:44 it's a token drain, yeah 00:14:55 DracoOmega: Shadow form drains you? 00:14:57 exactl 00:15:06 Hey, I'm not that intimately familiar with Dith 00:15:10 I assumed it was more, because it is a rather powerful effect :P 00:15:12 (And have not tried playing him) 00:15:21 no, my point was that it's hilariously small 00:16:56 -!- FRUITROLLUP is now known as gbeene 00:17:02 I don't really understand how anybody is getting drained that much early on 00:17:18 -!- piginabag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:20 melee is 20 + min(35, damage) draining 00:17:21 meleeing sonja 00:17:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2619-g464c487 (34) 00:17:37 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.14-a0-2619-g464c487: Allow felids to use wands 10(13 minutes ago, 7 files, 5+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=464c487c3a5d 00:17:39 sure, you might get 200 drain or some such 00:17:51 but that shouldn't be a big deal 00:17:54 i think people just basically let sonja whack them 00:17:59 elliptic: Yes, I ran a bunch of numbers to see how it was possible 00:18:05 elliptic: And most of them involve taking well over lethal damage 00:18:17 So I can only assume it involves repeatedly retreating and then coming back and still doing nothing, or something 00:18:22 is FeAr enabled now? 00:18:27 Oh, oops 00:18:33 No, I didn't do that 00:18:41 yes that was a...suggestive question :P 00:18:42 mm FeAr 00:18:46 good idea 00:19:22 Restricted though, probably? 00:19:26 !apt fe 00:19:26 Fe: Fighting: 0, Short: N/A, Long: N/A, Axes: N/A, Maces: N/A, Polearms: N/A, Staves: N/A, Slings: N/A, Bows: N/A, Xbows: N/A, Throw: N/A, Armour: N/A, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 4, Shields: N/A, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 4!, Charms: 2, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 1, Fire: -1, Ice: -2, Air: -1, Earth: -2, Poison: -1, Inv: 0, Evo: 2, Exp: -1, HP: -4*, MP: 2 00:19:41 Well, decent evo. But still not sure what I think of it 00:19:58 it is probably iffy power-wise 00:20:19 Restricted is good enough then 00:20:27 Not like the list is airtight elsewhere! :P 00:21:38 FEAR 00:22:13 seems borderline to me between restricted and unrestricted 00:22:47 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.14-a0-2620-g6481c04: Allow felids to start as artificers 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6481c046ce8e 00:22:56 And the general rule of thumb for that seems to be 'whatever' 00:23:17 When in doubt, go with whatever requires changing the fewest lines of code :P 00:23:47 the general rule of thumb is that MarvinPA and I went through them all and decided on some stuff arbitrarily back in 0.8 or so 00:23:56 good SP_SLUDGE_ELF there 00:24:05 but of course races and backgrounds have changed a lot since then 00:24:31 Yeah, I mean that stuff that's borderline can end up one way or the other fairly easily 00:24:34 i think my dj patch removes that SE there tho 00:24:34 Since you only have two options 00:26:43 should i remove dig spell now btw 00:26:55 "yes" 00:26:59 also haste spell 00:27:04 (if only) 00:27:06 <|amethyst> I'm not sure I follow why Su is the way it is 00:27:10 >:( 00:27:26 <|amethyst> (unrestricted vs restricted species for summoner background I mean) 00:27:43 yes it is weird that su is sometimes recommended 00:27:50 !apt summoning 00:27:50 Summ: Te: 2!, DE: 1, Ds: 0, Op: 0, Dj: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, VS: 0, Ko: 0, HO: 0, Vp: 0, Mf: 0, LO: 0, Fo: 0, Na: 0, Fe: 0, Ha: -1, Gh: -1, HE: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Sp: -2, Mi: -3*, Tr: -3*, Og: -3* 00:28:31 <|amethyst> like, why is MfSu restricted? 00:28:43 things currently restricted that make good summoners: HO, LO, Mf, Ha, maybe HE 00:28:45 very strange 00:29:11 HOSu and MfSu are maybe the best summoners i should think 00:29:35 CeSu is probably also great but that's just because Ce** is good 00:29:55 cesu sounds like not what anybody should recommend ever 00:30:17 cesu of tso 00:30:20 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:00 !lg * won su s=race 00:33:01 318 games for * (won su): 76x Mummy, 27x Vampire, 25x Deep Elf, 19x Demonspawn, 12x Kobold, 12x Human, 11x Felid, 11x Merfolk, 9x Spriggan, 9x Troll, 9x Ogre, 9x Minotaur, 9x Demigod, 8x High Elf, 8x Sludge Elf, 7x Naga, 7x Hill Orc, 5x Halfling, 5x Kenku, 5x Octopode, 5x Deep Dwarf, 5x Tengu, 4x Ghoul, 4x Centaur, 3x Mountain Dwarf, 3x Gargoyle, 2x Green Draconian, 2x Purple Draconian, Gnome, Yel... 00:33:03 er 00:33:09 !lg * won su s=race recent 00:33:10 66 games for * (won su recent): 8x Kobold, 7x Mummy, 6x Merfolk, 4x Demigod, 4x Vampire, 4x Troll, 4x Minotaur, 3x Demonspawn, 3x Gargoyle, 3x Human, 3x High Elf, 2x Deep Elf, 2x Naga, 2x Tengu, 2x Spriggan, 2x Sludge Elf, Centaur, Ogre, Lava Orc, Hill Orc, Ghoul, Djinni, Vine Stalker 00:33:17 mm, ko 00:33:26 !lg * won su s=god,race recent 00:33:27 66 games for * (won su recent): 16x Sif Muna (7x Mummy, 3x Vampire, 2x Kobold, Demonspawn, Lava Orc, Deep Elf, Human), 9x Trog (3x Kobold, 3x Merfolk, Gargoyle, Minotaur, Human), 9x Ashenzari (2x Demonspawn, 2x Gargoyle, Minotaur, Naga, Kobold, Ogre, High Elf), 7x The Shining One (2x Tengu, Deep Elf, Minotaur, Troll, Centaur, Human), 5x (4x Demigod, Spriggan), 3x Vehumet (2x High Elf, Sludge Elf),... 00:34:10 was kosu a nem choice or something 00:34:13 yes 00:34:16 !lg . kosu 00:34:17 2. simm the Thaumaturge (L14 KoSu), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an ice devil (summoned by the player character) on Lair:8 (hangedman_lair_in_review) on 2013-05-22 03:35:47, with 39605 points after 25279 turns and 2:14:42. 00:34:19 i see 00:34:24 i miscasted 2 blinks there or something 00:37:27 -!- araganzar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:38:08 |amethyst: polearms didn't all have reaching when MfSu was restricted 00:38:59 <|amethyst> elliptic: even so, why do kobolds have it and merfolk not? 00:39:15 <|amethyst> oh 00:39:22 <|amethyst> kobolds had higher Su didn't they? 00:39:32 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2620-g6481c04 00:39:46 well, also the restricted list is presumably from before all the summoning nerfs 00:39:47 no, they were also +0, but better spellcasting apt and generally worse at other things 00:39:55 well clearly you should fix this by recommending mfsu :p 00:40:01 so e.g. DE were a much better summoning race back then 00:40:02 yeah, you have to understand that back then there was no real reason to fight alongside your summons 00:41:07 really what should happen is that a well-versed player or two should go through and use whatever criteria they want to make a new table from scratch 00:41:40 since so much has changed since 0.8 00:42:07 and write up the new criterea for ... wherever we keep those 00:42:18 Well, it's an inherantly subjective thing 00:42:24 So I think it's hard to really write up 00:42:40 you could give guidelines, though 00:42:43 Or rather, you can't really just do it using some quantitative metric 00:42:47 well, I mean, write up what they're intending it to indicate at least 00:42:56 e.g. "focus on the combo's early-game strength" 00:43:04 Well, isn't it just 'Is strong for this race' and 'Is not that strong for this race'? 00:43:05 DracoOmega: yeah... there's no right or wrong answer for most combos, which is why it should be a couple of people who do the whole thing, so at least it is consistent in that sense 00:43:20 DracoOmega: well, there is also "is strong for this background" 00:43:30 the energy to write up the criteria sounds like not a good use of resources 00:43:31 Compared to other races, yes I guess 00:43:37 get three greatplayers to fill out the chart 00:43:37 hmm 00:43:52 basil volunteers 00:43:53 sometimes people say "I want to play a summoner", sometimes they say "I want to play a merfolk" 00:43:54 ChrisOelmueller: I'm not talking about a detailed writeup 00:43:55 And go with majority in case of ties 00:44:00 yes 00:44:02 Well, trae was one of the better tr solely from swiftness 00:44:14 maybe still? dunno 00:44:17 get three greatplayers to fill out the chart not suggesting anything but !nick eliteplayers 00:44:19 elliptic: well ideally those would be separated but 00:44:22 One thing is that it's sometimes hard to convey to new people WHY some combos that seem bad are good 00:44:25 Anyway, is that sort of criteria acceptable? 00:44:33 minmay: yes 00:44:45 Basil: we also intentionally didn't recommend some very strong combos that most players would have no idea how to play 00:44:48 like TrAE 00:44:51 Like, some troll casters are good, but not because you really want to kill things by firing spells at them 00:44:54 get elynae and whoever the other one is onboard 00:45:04 n7? idk 00:45:08 !nick eliteplayers 00:45:09 Mapping eliteplayers => minmay 78291 elynae simmarine 00:45:14 mmm, put a blurb on the entrance message 00:45:15 DracoOmega: why are they good? 00:45:17 What is the criteria for THAT, I wonder? 00:45:27 step 1 recommend all --ck 00:45:27 Welcome to the Dungeon, Dude the Troll Air Elementalist 00:45:28 ??eliteplayers 00:45:28 I don't have a page labeled eliteplayers in my learndb. 00:45:29 SamB: Because of some support spell or another to help with your clawing things 00:45:30 SamB: because they are trolls and start with books 00:45:34 (ps only cast Swiftness) 00:45:37 reddit popularity (seriously) 00:45:41 to some extent, I feel like the recommendations are supposed to be not so much the objectively strongest combos, as a good selection to suggest that relatively inexperienced players play 00:45:55 DracoOmega: their are air spells that improve your clawing? 00:45:55 yeah 00:45:56 Yeah, I think it's more important they be useful for inexperienced people 00:46:04 it would also be good if the non-recommended ones weren't darkgrey 00:46:07 Since more experienced people know why something might be bad or good themselves 00:46:15 SamB: Well, swiftness helps you get away from things that you can't claw! 00:46:15 elliptic: that sounds good to me ... 00:46:20 yes, unrecommended and banned combos are the same darkgrey 00:46:26 SamB: And troll melee is so good that you can still kill early things fine with no melee skills 00:46:29 non-recommended should be lightgrey, recommended should be green or cyan or something 00:46:33 "white" 00:46:36 or white 00:46:47 Green for go 00:46:49 can we do white? 00:46:49 yellow for wait 00:46:51 red for stop 00:47:01 white/lightgrey/darkgrey would make sense, yes, I didn't realize that unrecommended and banned were the same color 00:47:09 how about just red for banned 00:47:10 I think hints mode combos are also relevant here, by the way 00:47:26 oh yes hints mode should be in every game 00:47:27 (do we care about 8-color terminals? I forget.) 00:47:32 i dont think using white text for only the selection looks very nice since everything else is lightgrey 00:47:41 then you can recommend the three hints mode things even more 00:47:51 ChrisOelmueller: it would need a lot more hints wouldn't it? 00:47:58 oh, I see 00:48:12 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2621-g8340939: Revert "Potion of Restore Abilities cures Draining" 10(20 minutes ago, 3 files, 2+ 20-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8340939a0e0c 00:48:14 no i mean hints mode as own game mode should be removed 00:48:23 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:48:24 you mean hints should be provided on an as-is basis for the other combos? 00:48:25 people don't notice it as is, and it's a nice thing 00:48:38 elliptic: Oh, so just deferred the decision on a cap for the time-being? 00:48:44 and there could be some other way of disabling the hints after a while 00:49:01 so, like, pretty spotty but oh well at least there are SOME hints that MIGHT not be false? 00:49:02 well what I was thinking was expand the hints mode combo list and then get rid of combo recommendations 00:49:10 DracoOmega: yeah... I didn't see much point in putting a cap at 400 or 500 when I can't see any plausible way of getting to it that won't kill an early player 00:49:16 Yeah 00:49:25 That was sort of my own response when the issue was first brought to my attention 00:49:27 right, but stuff like this won't happen if hints mode is as locked away as it is right now 00:49:41 if someone else has a better feeling about where a cap would be good, go ahead and put it there 00:49:43 so nobody ever sees things and complains about it being wrong or wants to add/improve lines 00:49:44 so, you want hints mode by default 00:49:46 yes 00:49:53 -!- KurzedMetal has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:50:09 and you want all the combo assumptions weeded out of the existing hints, and more added ... 00:50:13 no 00:50:14 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:50:30 then you can recommend the three hints mode things even more 00:50:45 well, the assumptions weeded out 00:50:48 do i need to do anything to make dig not a player spell besides removing it from book of earth and putting SPFLAG_MONSTER on it 00:50:55 yes that's the part i don't want right now 00:51:08 where by assumptions I mean that the hint was written in a way that it would be wrong for some combos 00:51:29 not sure Mu-- hints mode would do much yes 00:51:41 but that shouldn't invalidate everything else 00:51:45 press ^q yes 00:51:57 wheals: tiles stuff, also check if any vaults try and put it in books maybe i guess 00:52:08 blargh tiles 00:52:11 did I hear something about special quitrobin hints? 00:52:20 tiles stuff is easy for spell removal 00:52:20 some players DO seem to have trouble with that 00:52:34 anyway, if anyone wants to work on making new combo recommendations, I'd recommend using a spreadsheet like https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsDUl9FTpJmLdFR1UW5LQk43dnFNSzFURjAwNmxGN2c&usp=sharing&authkey=COvkobkN 00:52:43 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:43 (the one we used in 0.8) 00:52:50 MarvinPA: if it's remaining as a monster spell it should keep the tile 00:53:12 since you can look them up and the tile is shown 00:53:12 Yes, somehow 'metal splinters' has a spell tile 00:53:17 oh do those use tiles now? 00:53:17 ah 00:53:17 Oh, is that way? 00:53:19 why* 00:53:20 yes 00:53:25 I accidentally memorized metal splinters today 00:53:29 haha 00:53:34 It had an icon, but wouldn't let me cast it 00:53:43 wizmode? 00:53:46 Yes 00:53:47 i made a couple of half-assed tiles for various monster spells a while back but lots are still ?s 00:53:50 I forget what I MEANT to type 00:53:52 elliptic: is MfGl vs MfFi because of the throwing apt 00:53:55 well there are no vaults as far as i can tell 00:53:55 But it autocorrected it to that 00:54:24 yeah i wouldn't really expect there to be any vaults for it but you never know 00:54:35 minmay: what 00:55:04 i didn't know that viles had dig though! 00:55:13 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:33 anyway since it's a two-liner i'm not writing a patch 01:02:16 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=sharing 01:02:40 i'll put in the existing recommendations 01:02:43 -!- tenofswords has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:08:36 personally I think it would be good to make the recommendations a lot narrower 01:09:00 like don't recommend supposedly "average" stuff like hufi 01:09:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:13:00 I mean, presumably the point of the recommendations is to steer new players, and I've seen a lot of people try to start with hufi 01:13:08 which is really not a great combo to start with IMO 01:14:27 but how many combos are there really that are great to start with? 01:14:48 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:07 wouldn't every hu be greyed out then 01:16:12 (although this brings up something related: I wonder how much stats would change if you swapped the positions of gladiator and fighter on the selection screen) 01:16:13 I mean, I could definitely see recommending fewer combos, and some of the humans are certainly questionable 01:16:17 though yeah i see how the hufi thing can be inelegant 01:16:38 but I don't think you should insist that they are all good combos for your very first game :P 01:16:59 since then you'll end up with like 50 combos recommended or some such 01:17:18 (being very generous) 01:17:55 I was actually thinking of aiming for something like 25, haha 01:18:06 then people will play a lot of the same combo 01:18:28 each background will have like one species that everyone plays 01:18:41 because it is the one that is lit up in the starting screen 01:19:47 you could do something like 01:19:54 separate race/class 01:20:11 when you choose either one, like 5-10 options light up 01:20:22 i mean, currently if you pick CK 01:20:39 the game basically shrugs at you and goes off to get drunk 01:20:53 ontoclasm: yeah, separating it based on order is possible... but that's twice as much work to maintain 01:20:57 instead of noting that trck is probably a lot better than muck 01:21:27 (not that we are doing a good job of maintaining it anyway) 01:21:31 well, that sort of list probably won't change a whole lot i would imagine 01:22:38 i guess i'm making this big chart but really what i'd prefer to ask is 01:22:39 I guess it might be reasonable to do it that way and pick a fairly fixed range of number of options to offer people though 01:22:51 "if i'm going to play a human, what backgrounds are good?" 01:23:21 and you give me, idk, 6 options 01:23:34 maybe 6-8 options in either direction, yeah 01:24:00 is there support for directions now? 01:24:01 it'd be a lot less brain-hurty to contemplate changing that way ... 01:24:08 ChrisOelmueller: no, it would require some code work 01:24:17 definitely worth it though 01:24:25 I'd think that most people, *especially* new, select species first anyway 01:24:27 since it's the default 01:24:27 SamB: I guess that's true 01:24:58 minmay: again, this isn't just for "new" players 01:25:44 but sure, that direction is more important 01:27:16 <|amethyst> if it goes in both directions, what should # do? 01:27:34 is # random recommended combo? 01:27:37 <|amethyst> s/goes in both/works differently in each/ 01:27:38 <|amethyst> yeah 01:28:06 could pick a random direction, then a random recommended combo in that direction 01:28:12 <|amethyst> hm 01:28:15 yeah, that's what I was thinking too 01:28:18 or only pick stuff that goes both directions 01:28:21 <|amethyst> then you might get a good ck 01:28:21 elliptic: wouldn't that make some combos twice as likely as others 01:28:26 <|amethyst> "good" ck 01:28:27 <|amethyst> or wn 01:28:28 minmay: sure 01:28:30 but that might be too restrictive! 01:28:41 minmay: some combos would also be infinitely more likely than others 01:28:41 (whether this is a problem is open to debate, and of course you can hack it away) 01:29:50 -!- scrubnub has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:43 well if anyone wants to fill out that big dumb chart i made feel free 01:34:59 it has all the current recommendations in it if you want to start there 01:40:41 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:46:03 -!- Kasofa has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:22 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:32 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:31 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:55:42 -!- Amy|Sonata has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:56 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:59:03 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:04:24 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:18 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:36 well, I wrote in a very rough list of some candidate backgrounds to suggest for each species 02:09:37 I tried for a little bit of variety in the suggestions when it seemed reasonable, and there are some species that could use a couple more suggestions - I'm sure I'm forgetting or don't know about some good things to recommend 02:10:19 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:11:39 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:35 maybe i'll bother some other guys to look at it 02:12:50 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:22 relatedly, how about merging En and As 02:13:31 -!- turnerjer has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:13:48 there's also the invis removal thing that i probably won't try to get done myself 02:13:57 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:01 ChrisOelmueller: That sounds like sane backwards 02:14:09 mhm 02:14:14 asschanter 02:14:28 yeah, it is best for this if the result is a blend of a few people's opinions about what things are good 02:14:33 ChrisOelmueller: I mean you literally spelled sane backwards :P 02:15:24 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:15:44 greensnark: there's a bit of Grunt in you, right 02:16:11 60% is more than a bit! 02:16:12 wouldn't it be that there's a lot of greensnark in Grunt :b 02:17:06 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2621-g8340939 (34) 02:17:18 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19:46 ChrisOelmueller: honestly I'd prefer to merge Hu and As 02:20:02 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:04 roarke would like that 02:20:06 haha 02:20:09 don't need to stop at merging two, sure 02:20:22 huas only playable combo 02:20:23 -!- mong has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:26 -!- nixor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:34 elegance in simplicity 02:20:37 but when merging things so much you eventually get into the disliked weapon/god/... prompt area i guess 02:20:50 and that's not what merging was supposed to achieve 02:20:53 well, Hu already has a weapon prompt 02:21:01 yes, that is why 02:25:24 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28:02 -!- jeffro_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28:39 -!- jeffro has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:28:43 -!- jeffro_ is now known as jeffro 02:28:43 -!- jeffro has quit [Changing host] 02:28:43 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:44 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:13 i'd really like more reliable shops in v:5 also 02:37:25 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:37:47 imo also remove the increase in shop cost with depth 02:37:49 there has been talk about how later on you get lots of gold but no shops, but even before the worst offenders there it's like i found myself doing elf for possible shops more than for the loot 02:38:00 which probably is not as designed 02:38:03 solution more zigs 02:38:06 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:13 v:$ zigs 02:38:15 not even zigs do their thing these days 02:38:23 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:34 -!- Ragnor has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:38:39 in zig:$ every square is a shop 02:42:28 -!- Keanan 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http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:00:38 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:56 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:01:52 !tell tenofswords https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10943 06:01:52 alefury: OK, I'll let tenofswords know. 06:15:14 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:05 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:26:10 -!- CampinSam has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30:29 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:35:45 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:36 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39:53 !tell dracoomega my opinion on spriggan monsters: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=151703#p151703 ; also crates post is good but I cant link it because of thanks 06:39:54 alefury: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 06:44:32 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:46:53 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:29 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:56:07 -!- sd1989 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:17 !messages 06:56:17 No messages for sd1989. 06:57:16 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 07:03:11 -!- Adumbration has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:06:09 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:05 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:12:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:08 that one guy is certainly right, all monsters should be bags of meat 07:14:20 :D 07:14:33 good thing there's a sprint for that 07:14:55 -!- _D_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:15:44 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 07:17:43 -!- Gmork has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:28:51 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:30 !messages 07:37:31 (1/1) |amethyst said (7h 55m 26s ago): Did you or aleksi get an upgrade? People are commenting that rebuilds are much faster now 07:37:48 !tell |amethyst that's weird. Let me check. 07:37:49 TZer0: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 07:38:12 !tell |amethyst as in, I'll poke Aleksi to see if he has done something, not sure when I'll get an answer. 07:38:12 TZer0: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 07:39:33 !tell |amethyst and he said that he has done nothing... 07:39:34 TZer0: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 07:44:23 -!- Quazifuji_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:45:59 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:31 -!- Azzkikr has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:51:28 -!- Joey___ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:51:38 -!- hurdos1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:56:07 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:57:34 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:45 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:14:06 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:15:22 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:15:32 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:17 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:19:18 -!- blackcustard has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:54 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:32:48 -!- zxc232 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:35:39 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 08:38:02 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:46 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:28 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:52 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:43 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:00 ??dith 08:43:00 dithmenos[1/5]: God of shadows. Grants the player an umbra at * piety ala TSO's halo, {shadow step} at ** piety, bleed smoke at *** piety, a passive shadow mimicking your actions at **** piety, and shadow form at ***** piety. 08:45:11 The online html learned page (http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/) states it hasn't been updated since November. The query "dith" doesn't produce anything on the knowledge bots (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots) either, so it looks like that's out of date too. 08:46:09 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:47:30 !tell DracoOmega Thanks for letting Felids use wands. Awesome change. 08:47:30 reaverb: OK, I'll let dracoomega know. 08:49:00 <|amethyst> Napkin: looks like update-learndb.sh isn't working, or hasn't been updated to the new location https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html 08:49:01 |amethyst: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:49:34 let's see... 08:49:34 Napkin: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:50:01 The new location is up to date, it's http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/ which is out of date. (It's also the first google result for "learned" 08:50:14 <|amethyst> I was going to look into it myself, but then it called a script in /root/bin/ 08:50:25 <|amethyst> reaverb: I mean, it hasn't been updated to sync from the new location 08:50:25 rsync --verbose --stats --recursive --times --delete napkin@loom.shalott.org:/var/lib/henzell/dat/learndb/ . 08:50:34 <|amethyst> reaverb: or something 08:50:43 that would be the new location, right? 08:50:54 so it's syncing from there already 08:50:58 <|amethyst> Napkin: Hm 08:51:17 <|amethyst> you'd have to ask greensnark about that 08:51:36 root@crash:/var/www/crawl.develz.org/learndb/dat/learndb> rsync --verbose --stats --recursive --times --delete napkin@loom.shalott.org:/var/lib/henzell/dat/learndb/ . 08:51:39 receiving incremental file list 08:51:42 Number of files: 15125 08:51:44 Number of files transferred: 0 08:51:45 <|amethyst> I didn't realise you were syncing the whole db, but I guess that makes sense because of /info/ 08:51:46 that looks ok, too 08:51:49 --- 08:52:05 means, I'm not getting newer data 08:52:48 <|amethyst> Napkin: does loom have a /var/www/learndb or such? 08:53:11 <|amethyst> oh weird 08:53:23 ls: cannot access /var/lib/henzell/: No such file or directory 08:53:27 <|amethyst> Napkin: looks like https://loom.shalott.org/learndb/ doesn't contain the db either 08:53:32 mens it got moved 08:53:35 *means 08:53:38 <|amethyst> Napkin: or isn't up-to-date 08:54:15 <|amethyst> greensnark: Where should Napkin be syncing learndb from? /var/lib/henzell/dat/learndb isn't getting updates, and https://loom.shalott.org/learndb/ looks out-of-date as well compared to learndb.html 08:54:30 <|amethyst> greensnark: Did everything move to a database? 08:54:33 i'm ok, the no such file error was a mistake 08:54:58 i'm restricted by rssh 08:55:26 we need to wait for greensnarks reply 08:56:04 greensnark: I was syncing learndb to CDO from napkin@loom.shalott.org:/var/lib/henzell/dat/learndb/ - but only old files there. did it get moved? 08:58:00 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:58:19 Napkin: Oops 08:58:28 I moved to a sqlite db 08:58:32 And forgot to tell you... 08:58:53 I wonder how rsync does with sqlite dbs 08:59:09 Seems like it would be possible to end up with a broken db occasionally 08:59:22 Since I'm pretty sure I turned off fsync 09:01:16 Napkin: DB is at /var/lib/henzell/dat/learn.db 09:01:47 -!- Zermako has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:01:56 Napkin: You may need to adapt your script that reads the db to do sqlite... 09:02:43 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:49 I can also make the file available on https if that helps 09:04:18 hey greensnark :) 09:04:23 good to read you! 09:04:26 Heyy Napking 09:04:34 how's it going? 09:04:41 Good good, vacationing in India :) 09:05:01 awesome :) fled the cold? 09:05:09 Although my bandwidth is in an unhappy place 09:05:17 hehe 09:05:20 Oh yes, left the DC area just in time to avoid the 1' of snow there 09:05:27 phew 09:05:34 good job :D 09:05:43 Yes, I congratulated myself on my prescience :) 09:05:49 so... everything in a sqlite db, huh? 09:05:56 Yes 09:06:06 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:06:13 It's also slightly tricky because you need to do a join of two tables to get definitions for a term 09:06:21 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:29 i think the website is using the plain text files in a few places 09:06:46 do you still create a learndb.html? 09:06:53 Yes, I still generate the html 09:07:01 <|amethyst> greensnark: should https://loom.shalott.org/learndb/ be removed from the web? 09:07:01 https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html 09:07:02 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:23 could you put the script beside the learn.db 09:07:24 ? 09:07:36 i'll figure out the rest then 09:08:18 |amethyst: It should, I tossed it :) 09:08:39 hehe 09:08:42 Napkin: Well, the script is unfortunately not self-contained, it uses bits of Sequell 09:08:57 yikes! 09:09:06 What, it's greensnark, Napkin.. what's the year, 2009? 09:09:11 Hi :) 09:09:16 Keskitalo!! 09:09:18 hey Eino :) 09:09:25 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 09:09:37 what are you doing here? ;> 09:09:40 Keskitalo: How's the kids? :) 09:10:36 greensnark: doesn't matter.. could you tarball the interesting parts? i'll have a look what I can do then 09:10:43 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:51 As an additional note: the knowledge bots (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots) don't have current monster info from Chei either. (Ex, the still have Lamia and do not have salamander firebrands). Will fixing the leandb update script fix this problem too? 09:11:31 partly, reaverb 09:11:34 greensnark: The daughter is fine and truly a worshipper of Trog based on her temper 09:11:40 I'm not sure she hates magic though 09:11:42 hehe 09:12:49 I'm in bed with cold but otherwise it's pretty good. Since I'm sick I'm building crawl for a first time in ages :> 09:13:06 Napkin: How are you! 09:13:08 Gesundheit! 09:13:27 Oh, quite good, TGIF though! 09:13:28 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:01 greensnark puts me to work again 09:14:22 Oh yeah, I had a school paper presentation in a seminar yesterday so now I can afford to be sick 09:14:32 That snark, so green 09:15:02 good job :) 09:16:04 The paper was related to this little project work we did: http://www.student.oulu.fi/~tkakela/kiigame/kiigame.html 09:16:15 It's in Finnish, but you can get the idea 09:17:09 Napkin: http://sprunge.us/BOSI 09:17:53 Napkin: The interesting query is http://sprunge.us/iPhQ 09:18:01 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:18:13 Keskitalo: Awesome, Trog worshippers are the best :) 09:18:55 Keskitalo: Get her a guitar and name it the wrath of Trog 09:19:10 Sounds good! 09:21:03 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:06 -!- tkappleton1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:24:06 -!- angry_point has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:16 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-9-february-2014#comment-1478 09:25:45 <|amethyst> there was one briefly (one of the somatica servers) 09:26:08 Someone reply to make it clear, that there is no money earned and all server owners are volunteers that pay for everything themselves? 09:26:09 <|amethyst> I'll suggest they try the Korean server (though it's webtiles only) 09:26:30 "worthwhile".. 09:26:44 Feierabend! 09:26:45 o/ 09:27:12 it would be playable if only the spectator game and not the player game depended on the server 09:27:19 but i guess that would be quite the undertaking 09:28:34 -!- rossi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:57 <|amethyst> Bloax: huh? 09:29:58 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:05 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:26 <|amethyst> what do you mean by the player game not depending on the server? Or by "the spectator game"? 09:30:35 |amethyst: think offline browser games 09:30:45 oh cool, blog posts 09:30:51 Bloax: Then how would we prevent cheating? 09:30:59 exactly 09:32:05 <|amethyst> Also, do we really want to rewrite Crawl in Javascript? or compile it to Javascript 09:32:38 -!- Sorbius has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:10 (Maybe we could do the interface client side) 09:34:27 -!- sstrickl has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 09:34:56 |amethyst: emscripten obviously 09:38:58 -!- gowby has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:50:29 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:05 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:51 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:55:43 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:57 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:15 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:08:46 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:09:23 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:18 -!- sanka has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:18:33 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:20:00 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:41 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:42 -!- Bloax has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:52 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:21 -!- Hivac has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 10:27:47 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:36:14 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:43:17 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:46:06 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:48:40 Oh just something I noted a while back: All the hells except Tar have a bonus chance of summoning their signature demon (Brimstone Fiend, Ice Fiend, Shadow Fiend). Tar summons a random major demon. I think this is a holdover from when Hell Sentinels did not exist. The relevant code is in the hell effect function of effects.cc. 10:49:00 do you mean dis and not tar? 10:50:00 ackack: Yes I do, oops. 10:50:27 fr: 10:50:31 Hell Sentinel (101) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 120-165 | AC/EV: 25/3 08(spiny 5) | Dam: 40, 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3263 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, iron shot (3d33) | Sz: Large | Int: high. 10:50:31 %??hell sentinel col:cyan 10:50:39 dis sentinel 10:51:02 Look at the resists; they basically are made of iron :b 10:51:15 ...spiny iron? 10:53:11 got to go, bye. 10:53:18 -!- reaverb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:53:44 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:47 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:26 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:57 forge fiend 10:57:40 Unknown spell name: 'metal fragments' in 'iron_shot;metal_fragments;.;symbol_of_torment;melee' 10:57:40 %??hell sentinel name:Forge_Fiend n_rpl col:cyan spells:iron_shot;metal_fragments;.;symbol_of_torment;melee 10:57:50 Not a monster spell: 'melee' 10:57:50 %??hell sentinel name:Forge_Fiend n_rpl col:cyan spells:iron_shot;metal_splinters;.;symbol_of_torment;melee 10:57:53 :( 10:57:55 Forge Fiend (101) | Spd: 10 | HD: 19 | HP: 120-165 | AC/EV: 25/3 08(spiny 5) | Dam: 40, 25 | 05demonic, 10doors, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2904 | Sp: iron shot (3d33), metal splinters (3d31), s.torment | Sz: Large | Int: high. 10:57:55 %??hell sentinel name:Forge_Fiend n_rpl col:cyan spells:iron_shot;metal_splinters;.;symbol_of_torment 10:59:56 plz rename iron shot and make it nail enemies to walls 11:00:28 i assume reaverb is just talking about hell effects, i think most dis endings already do place a fair number of hell sentinels 11:00:41 Yes, hell effects. 11:03:51 -!- Z_LAMP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:11 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:15 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2621-g8340939 (34) 11:12:26 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 11:17:22 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Iceweasel 26.0/20131215102647]] 11:22:02 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:22 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:25 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:35 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:32 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:22 -!- Giomancer has left ##crawl-dev 11:28:30 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 11:30:37 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:58 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 11:31:24 you mean that stuff that randomly paralyzes you because lolyourinhell 11:34:24 -!- Akien has quit [Client Quit] 11:34:26 -!- Akien_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:57 -!- Akien_ is now known as Akien 11:35:43 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:31 -!- Guest62734 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:37:22 -!- montyb has quit [Quit: montyb] 11:38:43 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:40 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:29 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:44:51 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:05 -!- Akien has quit [Quit: Quitte] 11:45:15 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:07 oh hey i guess sprint 3 is sometimes unwinnable since the last stone of tremors change 11:50:19 woops 11:50:24 ? 11:50:49 are you fixing sprints!! 11:50:52 it relies on you being able to dig through a wall to get to the orb and gave you a stone of earth elementals to do it with 11:50:58 i hope those runed doors in sprint 1 go away too 11:51:06 because seriously what the hell 11:56:07 Bah, should've built DEBUG :P 11:56:53 "Compiling always takes longer than you expect, even when you use Hofstadter's compiler." 12:00:12 -!- saddsaasdsad has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:06 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 12:01:35 i guess you can still win sprint 3 by leaving enough monsters lying around that you can recharge the stone of tremors until you hit the 1/3 chance of destroying the wall you need to destroy 12:02:11 (clearly give them a wand of digging instead!!!!) 12:02:20 yes i am doing :P 12:02:30 give them book of earth 12:02:44 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:37 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 12:07:31 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-2622-gb862381: Remove the Dig spell 10(13 minutes ago, 5 files, 6+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b862381d69a9 12:07:31 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-2623-g7970c35: Make it possible to reliably reach the orb in Sprint 3 again 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7970c3536dd3 12:07:31 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-2624-g5b3f85a: De-rune Red Sonja 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5b3f85ae5bc8 12:07:33 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:40 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:22 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:19 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:21 MarvinPA: do you also need to put SPFLAG_MONSTER on it to make sure randbooks don't have it? 12:09:32 or is that not necessary 12:09:37 no, if it's in no regular books it won't be put in randbooks 12:09:40 ah, ok 12:09:43 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:44 SPFLAG_THIS_SPELL_IS_A_MONSTER 12:09:55 dig is the real monster 12:13:24 i guess maybe it should have spflag_monster anyway but i have basically no idea how it's actually supposed to be used, there are probably just as many monster-only spells with it as without it 12:13:46 <|amethyst> SPFLAG_MONSTER should mean "it breaks when cast by the player" 12:13:54 <|amethyst> or "it's not even implemented for the player" 12:14:04 aha, that makes sense 12:14:08 so i guess the existence of dig wand means it shouldn't have it 12:14:17 <|amethyst> I don't think we'd cut much code by doing that for dig, so not worthwhile 12:14:20 <|amethyst> particularly since wands 12:14:28 and save compat! 12:15:18 <|amethyst> that could be addressed: just amnesia the spell 12:15:29 <|amethyst> maybe give them passwall to compensate if they don't have it :P 12:15:38 <|amethyst> in case they saved in a closet 12:18:02 -!- mamgar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:18:17 -!- scummos__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:35 maybe OoD and LRD should not destroy walls if there's no dig spell 12:19:40 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:06 i'm not sure i follow 12:22:56 they are an extremely tedious way to do the same thing dig spell does 12:23:17 what up 12:23:59 -!- montyb has quit [Quit: montyb] 12:24:49 there's one offending infinite dig mechanic left in my opinion and it's not those spells 12:30:16 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:31:51 -!- gbeene is now known as gbrunch 12:32:53 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:35:22 nice...the true degeneracy of Sapher has been patched. (thank you, MarvinPA) 12:37:28 i'm gonna try and code the two-way recommendations :C 12:37:32 -!- edhmaster has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:33 watch me fail 12:39:29 oh did someone come up with them? 12:39:38 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:30 nonethousand: well, I made a rough list of two-way recommendations on the spreadsheet, but it could really use another couple people looking at it too 12:41:02 I'd be happy to look it over 12:41:16 nonethousand: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=drive_web#gid=1 12:41:20 thanks, ontoclasm 12:41:34 just edit the righthand column as you like 12:43:53 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:56 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:25 yeah, edit the column or create a new column if you think that might be better 12:51:49 -!- earspliT_ has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:34 Hmm, does mapstat usually take a long time? 12:58:20 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:45 It crashed. 12:59:56 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 13:00:11 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:54 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:47 I made a few small changes but the lists look quite solid 13:08:19 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:08 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:04 -!- myrmidette has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:26 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:33 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:57 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 13:20:20 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:44 -!- Fortescue has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:22:08 -!- Fortescue has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:18 -!- montyb has quit [Quit: montyb] 13:24:56 nonethousand: any feeling on how many suggestions is a good number? 13:25:37 I was aiming for 6-8 but didn't quite succeed everywhere 13:25:59 6-8 backgrounds a race? 13:26:04 also, I wasn't sure exactly what to do about the species that haven't made it into a stable release yet 13:26:06 SwissStopwatch: yeah 13:26:16 elliptic: I just tried to shoot for ~6 without being too arbitrary 13:26:20 elliptic: there are two that can go away!! 13:26:21 SwissStopwatch: and also 6-8 races a background, though that's a bit harder 13:26:45 mm 13:27:22 I think it is generally agreed that LO and Dj are not making it to 0.14 at least? 13:27:33 it sorta seems like suggesting races for backgrounds is going to lead to a lot of duplication 13:27:36 there's a patch fixing Dj 13:27:50 that may not be a bad thing, just throwing it out there 13:27:51 I mean, it would 13:28:17 Because if you're recommending a background for a race you can recommend that race for the background 13:28:35 well not necessarily 13:28:43 You almost always can. 13:28:46 I haven't actually gotten to play VS yet myself, but if it is getting into 0.14 then someone who knows how good it is at stuff should add recommendations 13:28:48 With, say, Mu 13:28:48 felids have lots of recommended backgrounds and aren't ever recommended as a race 13:28:49 you could do that, but VM being a very good choice for Fe doesn't mean that i would recommend Fe for anything 13:28:51 maybe not so much 13:29:06 Felid -should- be recommended for some backgrounds except for being very unfun to play 13:29:28 recommend feck imo 13:29:35 and I don't know what the current thoughts are on Fo... there were a lot of changes to it talked about a while back, but I don't know what happened with them 13:29:43 i'm unconvinced that Fe would be in the top 6-8 races for even the book backgrounds, but maybe you disagree 13:29:58 Well FeVM is a known good Fe and a known good VM 13:30:22 yeah VM was basically the one place I was considering recommending Fe 13:30:34 I would probably prefer to play it over maybe 2-3 of the races that actually -are- recommended for it 13:30:46 human is also not frequently recommended 13:30:49 only for DK I think 13:30:56 hu is hard to recommend because no skewed traits at all 13:30:58 currently the spreadsheet has DE Sp Na Mf Te Dr Ds for VM 13:31:14 are DD ever recommended? 13:31:17 sure 13:31:18 yes 13:31:18 for EE probabl 13:31:28 I feel like Na is an awkward recommendation even with the excellent apt but I've never played it or a similar naga 13:31:40 ackack: you can look at the spreadsheet :) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=drive_web#gid=1) 13:31:44 ok, thanks 13:32:46 SwissStopwatch: NaVM is a pretty classic combo... I don't think it is that great, but I think it is a reasonable char to play 13:32:55 so the spreadsheet makes it look symmetric: combos are recommended, so if you come at them from either race or background first it's still recommended. is that correct? 13:33:04 I guess it "should" be there because of the apt 13:33:19 Is Dr just there because Dr is good at everything 13:33:29 ackack: no, that's the left part which is current crawl 13:33:33 afaict 13:33:44 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2625-g09b9c0f: Change claymore to old triple sword stats. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=09b9c0f59ba4 13:33:46 ackack: the rightmost column is what races||backgrounds will be recommended for the row 13:33:46 tentatively 13:33:46 ackack: the grids are current crawl, the lists on the right are what we are working on 13:33:50 I think there are maybe zero backgrounds I would not recommend Dr for but it probably could be bumped there 13:33:50 oh, i didn't see the second half 13:33:56 thank you for fixing claymores 13:34:25 also please recommend DE for AM 13:34:38 thought about adding that 13:34:44 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:46 It should definitely be there 13:34:52 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 13:35:21 Probably both because it is slightly unexpected and also really -is- one of the best AMs 13:35:23 ooh background recommendations 13:35:24 (I don't necessarily care too much about the claymore stats one way or the other, but it should be changed in a separate commit with some explanation if someone wants to make the change) 13:35:41 haha, "fixing" claymores 13:35:44 SwissStopwatch: feel free to add stuff (and other people too) 13:35:54 yes it was some adjustment to make them like old executioner axes or something 13:35:54 oh right it's editable :P 13:35:58 is there some reason gr recommends IE? 13:36:02 -!- dck has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:04 specifically 13:36:07 the goal is 6-8 recommendations in either direction 13:36:07 time to recommend am everything 13:36:14 elliptic: here's your guy to make VS recommendations <_< 13:36:18 hi 13:36:32 Gr has good apts for IE 13:36:38 and IE is just very strong in general 13:36:55 i was wondering why this wasnt alphabetical for a sec 13:37:02 I was also trying for some variety in the recommendations 13:37:15 too bad dgam is almost good 13:37:31 yeah i think variety is probably a better goal than strength 13:37:40 i.e. if there is a combo which is maybe a bit less strong but more different from the other things recommended, I think that is better 13:38:33 kind of random that wz is for ds but not cj, but there are lots of cj recommendations, yeah 13:38:35 -!- UselessOne has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:14 Ds is kind of flat like human really 13:39:24 you could recommend a lot of things for it 13:39:27 so is VS 13:40:02 ChrisOelmueller: good edit to dj 13:40:14 heh 13:40:23 Hm, I dislike something about the Ds ones though 13:40:28 -!- jeffro_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:45 which is I don't see any god backgrounds for it and there should be at least 1 given their invo focus I feel 13:40:55 DK perhaps 13:40:55 well, Trog 13:40:56 Be!! 13:41:04 but yeah, DK would be reasonable there, or AK 13:41:06 dsdk is one of the more played ds i think 13:41:08 but I do not think DsBe is a good one somehow for what I said :P 13:41:19 dk doesn't rely on invo much at all 13:41:21 Not a bad recommendation because Be is good for most races... 13:41:23 it can 13:41:28 It sort of does but AK relies on it more 13:41:42 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:46 I think DsAK is a more legit suggestion because you can choose to focus invo more early and use it to solve youyr problems 13:41:48 there's a patch to fix Dj? 13:41:51 what does it do 13:42:24 -!- sstrickl has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:28 * SwissStopwatch adds AK 13:42:29 !bug 8148 13:42:29 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8148 13:42:43 good fix 13:42:43 ahahahahaha 13:43:34 Hmm, I feel like DgTm is an awkward suggestion even if I understand why it is being made 13:43:54 so the goal would be to drastically reduce the number of backgrounds which are recommended for each race, keeping some variety? 13:43:54 The problem is I haven't actually played one to confirm/refute my suspicions 13:44:07 DgTm is the best melee Dg by far 13:44:21 I would not be surprised at that I guess 13:44:23 DgTm makes use of Cheistats without Chei. 13:44:40 And general consensus says that Cheistats are pretty good on transmuters with the exception of Chei. 13:44:45 without it there'd be just 3 suggestions for tm 13:44:53 tm is just awkward like that 13:44:56 it isn't great as a Tm but I wasn't sure what else to suggest, yeah 13:45:04 I think probably it should be recommended for Tm but not Dg 13:45:11 SwissStopwatch: I'd say the other way around... 13:45:12 but then you have no elee Dg so.... 13:45:21 i'd say LO but that's not in 0.14 13:45:30 Well I only say that because of, well, then only 3 Tm recs 13:45:57 IT probably is fine, just the -1 apt would be troubling to me but I haven't played it so I can't argue very strongly 13:46:00 popularity isn't really a guide, but DgTm is the 4th-won Dg 13:46:19 (fr recommend DgWn) 13:46:20 <_< 13:46:22 Tm have a rough start in general. 13:46:30 and also the 4th-won Tm I guess 13:46:40 so it's not really surprising if it's not very recommended overall 13:46:48 I guess it is legit 13:46:51 wow why is HE recommended for Wn 13:47:00 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47:01 HEWn sounds pretty good 13:47:11 variety mainly 13:47:13 wheals: its a word 13:47:20 yes there's that 13:47:26 I mean what would you rather recommend for Wn 13:47:41 -!- N78291 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:44 Hard to really make great recommendations for "I don't know what you start with" 13:47:45 Wn probably doesn't really need 8 recommendations but I really wasn't sure what to put there 13:47:49 it already has a good list 13:47:52 the other Wn recommendations look pretty good 13:48:06 I feel like Hu "should" be there thematically but, well 13:48:20 The other ones all happen to be stronger I think 13:48:22 though the list is pretty similar to CK (for obvious reasons) 13:48:38 Yes, it really is "pick a strong race and hope you can cobble together a plan" 13:49:08 or in the case of Tr guarantee that you can and it doesn't even matter what you start with 13:49:29 huh is HOAs some secret tech 13:49:36 I feel like As might be a good recommendation for a few races that need an extra one, actually 13:49:42 +1 to that 13:49:43 solely because curare 13:49:53 Have Mu get no recommendations 13:49:55 the main reason why As isn't recommended more is that players don't know what As is about 13:50:01 so they will try to stab everything 13:50:05 right 13:50:17 (maybe change as) 13:50:19 To me it is a melee character that gets curare and a cloak 13:50:28 which is a very good deal imo 13:50:36 also regular poisoned needles are very good too 13:50:51 yes, they are 13:51:00 hi 13:51:04 well in all fairness As doesn't exist much and is pretty pointless for this reason 13:51:04 players don't know what As is about 13:51:05 obviously yes but the HO in particular just seems out of nowhere (though it is a strong melee dude) 13:51:09 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:30 well notice it's not recommended for HO, but HO is recommended for As 13:51:32 also brought up doing things to or with As earlier 13:51:44 true 13:51:47 i like As, i wouldn't want to get rid of the background 13:51:52 it's catchier than "curareman" 13:51:53 I don't really like that list of As recommendations, mind 13:52:06 Because it doesn't go well with what I think As is about (see above) 13:52:12 just change as recommendation to be the same as gl 13:52:17 yeah As recommendations are awkward 13:52:45 definitely Sp and Ha should be there, not sure about anything else 13:52:46 I think TrAs is legitimately better than all of the ones recommended for it 13:52:59 maybe Sp is better 13:53:02 SwissStopwatch: that's true of Tr for basically all the backgrounds :P 13:53:06 right 13:53:09 yes, thanks Tr 13:53:11 the need for variety is pretty big i think 13:53:21 otherwise you could probably recommend the same 6 races for most of these 13:53:34 I could see Tr as an As recommendation though, probably better than HO as a non-stealthy option 13:53:43 you could do OgAs maybe 13:53:44 OpAs? 13:53:52 Yeah, racial power level is hard to account for but I don't think you should try too hard to account for it on the backgrounds 13:53:52 as is just weird 13:54:01 the thing about OpAs is that I feel like it is pretty bad :P 13:54:02 it could use a rename 13:54:09 how about Ha for Wr? 13:54:16 seems okay if you want a melee Op 13:54:29 I'd rather play that than say, OpGl 13:54:31 N78291: oh, you mean recommended for Op? yeah 13:54:40 (there are two directions) 13:54:51 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:54:53 also su is recommended for felid....... 13:54:57 I'd probably rather play OpFi for the shield but the curare is always a strong argument 13:55:03 fesu doesnt sound actually bad 13:55:08 the one time I want a shield.... 13:55:19 !apt fe 13:55:19 Fe: Fighting: 0, Short: N/A, Long: N/A, Axes: N/A, Maces: N/A, Polearms: N/A, Staves: N/A, Slings: N/A, Bows: N/A, Xbows: N/A, Throw: N/A, Armour: N/A, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 4, Shields: N/A, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 4!, Charms: 2, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 1, Fire: -1, Ice: -2, Air: -1, Earth: -2, Poison: -1, Inv: 0, Evo: 2, Exp: -1, HP: -4*, MP: 2 13:55:24 as opposed to "am willing to use one but don't care that much" 13:55:28 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:55:32 i thought fe had positive spellcasting, huh 13:55:57 is there a list of these recommended combo changes? 13:56:02 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=drive_web#gid=1 13:56:16 why is vsee not recommended? 13:56:18 N78291: righthand column of the spreadsheet ^ 13:56:20 the big column, not the grid 13:56:43 simmarine: I didn't put in any VS in either direction because I don't know VS, someone should add it in where appropriate 13:56:55 oh wait 13:56:56 i see 13:57:01 so the right is the actual new recommendations 13:57:16 yes, the grid is current recommendations 13:57:29 -!- ystael has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:57:32 oh 13:57:35 whoops then 13:57:43 is the menu getting recolored 13:57:48 just for reference, though it isn't that useful except as a list of species/backgrounds 13:58:33 If someone decided to turn the grid into spreadsheet art it probably would not interfere with this at all 13:58:33 -!- sd1989 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:10 hmm, why is DD suggested for Wr 13:59:22 ddwr is pretty good, i think that's reasonable 13:59:24 +1 tloc apt and good melee 13:59:25 i think they have good tloc apt 13:59:41 hm, I guess that makes sense 13:59:51 that list looks odd but Wr is another of those awkward classes 13:59:55 yes 14:00:06 I guess if you want to start with the most emergency items possible DDWr is the combo for you 14:00:17 I actually used to speedrun DDWr 14:00:18 merge as and wr 14:00:31 that actually sounds reasonable 14:00:32 makes sense to me 14:00:38 magicninjas 14:00:48 Also awkward initially but probably a good potential change 14:01:06 as and wr are both pretty good backgrounds, what would you get rid of if you smashed them together? 14:01:12 having both toolkits seems excessive to me 14:01:12 trtm would be okay if more book backgrounds are wanted for tr 14:01:35 tree seems not bad, too 14:01:37 yeah, having both a blowgun + needles and that book seems sort of crazy 14:01:48 TrEE is sort of bad IMO aside from forming a good word 14:01:51 it would be, conceptually though... 14:02:00 do you get big snakes with giant clubs and the sort of power a tr gets early on? 14:02:01 TrNe is one of their bad apts I think 14:02:03 yes it has great flavor but it would be very strong 14:02:04 ...well, different than the matter at hand anyway 14:02:04 which isn't a lot 14:02:11 their better apts I mean 14:02:14 dck: not anymore 14:02:18 you can only s2s stuff like arrows 14:02:18 !apt Tr 14:02:18 Tr: Fighting: -2*, Short: -2, Long: -2, Axes: -2, Maces: -1, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Slings: -4*, Bows: -4*, Xbows: -4*, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -4*, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -5*, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -4*, Charms: -4*, Summ: -3*, Nec: -2, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -4*, Earth: -1, Poison: -3*, Inv: -1*, Evo: -2*, Exp: -1, HP: 3!, MP: -2* 14:02:21 and maybe thats it 14:02:21 -!- edhmaster has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:24 oh 14:02:27 javelins too, i think 14:02:30 rip tr with pet anacondas 14:02:40 -2, almost their best spell apt 14:02:55 I feel like TrNe is slightly awkward for reasons but there are no bad trolls so 14:03:09 hm, the thing about making recommendations for vs is that they don't excel that much at certain things compared to other races 14:03:19 dck: yes, look at ds or hu 14:03:23 as in, I can unrecommend AM and EE and maybe some more 14:03:30 eyah, they're a it like ds and hu 14:03:33 *yeah 14:03:34 I think TrIE is maybe a better one even with that apt because you get to start with Ozo's Armour 14:03:41 in a book, I mean 14:03:41 dck: that's one advantage of having split recommendations though 14:04:02 -!- honeybadger has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:04:09 so even if vs doesn't excel compared to others you can still say what it it's good at 14:05:42 like, op is recommended for two backgrounds 14:06:28 oh there is another table below the first one 14:06:48 N78291: yeah, that's for the other direction 14:07:05 i.e. if you select a background first, which species to recommend 14:07:11 -!- earspliT_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:24 (again, the rightmost column is what we are coming up with, and the grid is old stuff) 14:08:17 !apt gh 14:08:18 Gh: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 2, Shields: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -2, Conj: -2, Hexes: -2, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -2, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: 1, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: 1, MP: -1 14:08:22 !apt vp 14:08:22 Vp: Fighting: -1, Short: 1, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: -2, Polearms: -1, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 5!, Shields: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: 4!, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: 1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 1, Fire: -2, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: -1, Inv: -1*, Evo: 0, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0 14:08:33 maybe Gh instead of Vp for EE recommendation? 14:08:56 Ghoul int :( 14:08:59 -!- earspliT_ has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:03 gh make fine casters 14:09:12 i only see Gh recommended for one other background (Mo) 14:09:12 maybe, I like GhEE a lot but I think most people like it less 14:09:37 ne ie ee are good gh backgrounds 14:09:37 They probably are about as good a recommendation as Vp 14:09:41 I'd rather play GhIE 14:10:13 just in terms of a little variety, EE seems like a good background to maybe also recommend Gh for 14:10:14 I mean both of them have bad Conj apts which is a little awkward 14:10:22 but not entirely a dealbreaker for Earth 14:10:24 plus i think Gh are more fun than Vp 14:10:25 yeah I added Gh in the EE row 14:10:28 I like how fe isn't recommended for anything 14:10:43 since it is a good point that it was only recommended for Mo 14:10:54 and nobody seemed to want to defend VpEE 14:11:08 yes, I think it should replace something for Vm but not sure which 14:11:08 SpEE is a better passwaller anyway 14:11:13 er VM 14:11:42 Fe in for Mf or Dr in VM seems fine 14:11:50 MfVM is really good 14:11:57 fetm sounds okay but I haven't played it 14:11:58 well it's an Mf 14:11:58 yeah, i'm sure DrVM is good too 14:12:01 just variety 14:12:12 but I'm excited to find the tm spells on other Fes 14:12:13 I'd replace Ds before one of those I think 14:12:27 Ds would be legit to replace too, although their poison apt is better than normal for them 14:12:32 fair enough, i hadn't looked to see how many other places Ds are 14:12:36 fetm has a bad start because melee felid 14:12:38 and figured it probably wasn't in many 14:12:43 certainly tm spells are good later on for fe though 14:12:49 I feel like Dr might be legit to replace because it is frequently recommended 14:12:55 that is my thinking for Dr 14:13:01 yeah replacing Dr might be good 14:13:14 hm, hu is only recommended for DK if you choose background first 14:14:08 Which is a weird sole recommendation but it is really hard to think of something Hu excels at that doesn't have like 10 races that are stronger 14:14:30 HuWn and DsWn are classics 14:14:32 HuDK at least has a bit of synergy because the xp apt helps with yred stealing your xp 14:14:33 maybe it is more like 7 races 14:14:43 -!- agentgt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 14:14:50 DsCK 14:14:53 I guess it depends on why you are selecting Wn 14:14:59 Wn is probably sort of good because of the flat apts, but the Wn recommendations are more focused on strong races 14:15:17 Which I think is legit but working Hu in somewhere might be good 14:15:35 -!- Akien has left ##crawl-dev 14:15:42 if there's any interest in finding another Fe recommendation starting with backgrounds, maybe He? that sounds pretty unfun though 14:15:53 at any rate i notice --He only has 5 14:16:01 wait so these recommendations arent two way? 14:16:07 dont recommend fehe 14:16:09 trust me on this 14:16:10 simmarine: no, that's the whole point 14:16:14 crate: yes 14:16:15 thats weird 14:16:17 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:18 nope I realized a bit ago they're not symmetrical 14:16:18 5 is fine 14:16:28 which suddenly made everything make sense 14:17:07 he could get hu 14:17:09 6 is better than 5 I think if possible 14:17:13 maybe if you wanted another race for --He it could be something that takes good advantage of racial pacification bonuses 14:17:22 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:27 HE, Hu are candidates for that I guess 14:17:29 Mu 14:17:30 some elf I guess 14:17:40 HE could work 14:17:46 HEHe is a good idea 14:18:09 it's almost as popular as oghe 14:18:10 i thought hehe was kind of bad when i played it 14:18:21 or actually 14:18:23 !apt he inv 14:18:24 HE (SK_INVOCATIONS)=1 14:18:27 oh that is fine 14:18:38 it could just be the high elf effect in action though 14:18:38 crate: which --He would you prefer that isn't on the list? 14:18:47 yes, the classic high elf effect 14:18:58 link me the list again 14:18:59 "Man, these apts look good!" 14:19:07 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=sharing#gid=1 14:19:12 !apt HE 14:19:12 HE: Fighting: 0, Short: 2, Long: 2!, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: 0, Slings: -2, Bows: 3!, Xbows: 0, Throw: 1, Armour: -1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 2, Shields: -1, UC: -2*, Splcast: 1, Conj: 1, Hexes: 0, Charms: 2, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: 1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 2, Earth: -2, Poison: -2, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: -1, MP: 2 14:19:19 !apt hu 14:19:19 You are separating race->bg recommendations from bg->race? (backlog is long) 14:19:19 Hu: Fighting: 0, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: 0, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: 0, Dodge: 0, Stealth: 1, Shields: 0, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 1, HP: 0, MP: 0 14:19:22 currently HE DD HO Mi Dr Gr 14:19:24 Exp -1 HP -1 sure look good 14:19:27 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:33 I see the high elf effect in action for this list now actually 14:19:49 Medar: yeah, goal is 5-9 recs in each direction, with decent variety 14:20:03 Sounds really good. 14:20:30 !apt inv 14:20:30 Inv: Ds: 3!, HO: 3!, LO: 3!, DD: 3!, Fo: 2, Ha: 1, Op: 1, Dr: 1, Hu: 1, Ko: 1, Gh: 1, HE: 1, Mf: 1, Gr: 1, DE: 1, Ce: 1, Na: 1, Og: 1, Mi: 0, Sp: 0, VS: 0, Fe: 0, Mu: -1*, Dj: -1*, Vp: -1*, Te: -1*, Tr: -1*, Dg: N/A 14:20:31 -!- jeffro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:43 clearly FoHe 14:20:49 heh 14:20:53 -!- blackcustard has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:21:11 kohe actually might be a good recommendation 14:21:18 or NaHe actually 14:21:20 yeah 14:21:24 i would suggest either of those over hehe 14:21:27 I've played a few NaHe and they seemed fairly good 14:21:42 -!- jeffro has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:44 huge HP to let you survive more pacification tries, I guess? 14:21:54 and poison spit 14:22:00 and then you can pacify nagas in snake, which sounds good also 14:22:01 yeah generally good defenses + poison spit + you can eat more things 14:22:02 gives you a way of killing things at game start 14:22:24 kohe sounds nice 14:22:28 and then there's ddhe 14:22:32 of cours eyou might not get snake so that would be a bad reason to recommend (it's midgame anyway) 14:22:36 I haven't been too impressed by kohe when I've played it 14:22:37 nahe has problems with pacified things in corridors though 14:22:53 filling out some of the earlier backgrounds: Fi could pick up Ce; Mo could pick up Mf; As could pick up Og (i don't know if people will agree with that one but in terms of more Og representation i think As is a good bg for them) 14:22:56 less permafood is sort of bad on --He, even with carnivore 14:22:58 well if you just want what's strong then cehe is the obvious recommendation 14:23:09 but i was assuming that wasnt recommended because of food thingys 14:23:12 yeah 14:23:23 nahe can survive cockroaches 14:23:23 OgAs sounds fine if you account for what As actually is instead of what it sounds like it should be, yeah 14:23:26 sounds good in my book 14:23:31 !apt Unarmed 14:23:32 Could not understand "unarmed" 14:23:37 !apt uc 14:23:37 UC: Mi: 1!, Gh: 1!, HO: 1!, Vp: 1!, Mf: 1!, Gr: 1!, Te: 1!, LO: 1!, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, VS: 0, Ko: 0, Fo: 0, Ce: 0, Tr: 0, Na: 0, Fe: 0, Ds: -1, Dj: -1, Dg: -1, DD: -1, Og: -1, Mu: -2*, Ha: -2*, Sp: -2*, HE: -2*, DE: -2* 14:23:38 not -great-, but fine 14:24:02 i think huhe is probably a good choice also but i'm kind of biased there 14:24:06 another recommended combos regurgitation? 14:24:06 or VSMo 14:24:09 SpMo is pretty strong. 14:24:25 VSMo is a good idea in terms of getting VS in there 14:24:27 dpeg: we are doing something a bit different this time 14:24:29 vsmo is surprisingly popular although I don't see a lot why 14:24:43 aesthetics 14:24:44 elliptic: a systematic approach? 14:24:46 dpeg: Since we're kind of painting bikesheds, do you have any strong glyph opnions? Freeing up H by moving e.g. Tengu is one issue 14:24:48 0.5 mindelay of course 14:24:49 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 14:24:50 probably the same reason FoFi is really popular 14:24:58 dpeg: different recommendations based on whether you choose species first or background first, aiming for 5-9 recs in each direction 14:25:01 yeah HuHe is fine, you can even claim synergy for all that XP leech (not that it really matters) 14:25:06 elliptic: oh, nice 14:25:18 dpeg: spreadsheet is https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=sharing#gid=1 14:25:29 gammafunk: no glyph concerns currently from me, sorry 14:25:31 dpeg: grid is recs in current crawl, rightmost column is what we are working on 14:25:47 I guess that email to crd asking about glyphs never got sent 14:25:52 Maybe I should do that 14:26:07 Also, I am pushing this survey report on Sunday. If anyone wants to make comments, now is the time :) 14:26:35 does it still claim that the Su changes made Su more fun to play 14:26:51 i kinda stopped reading after that sentence which is a shame because it was nice until that 14:26:54 KoEn over DEEn seems a bit odd 14:27:11 or am I misremembering Ko having a poor hex apt? 14:27:13 yeah okay i give up 14:27:14 ChrisOelmueller: you are a strange man. Do you stop reading a book the moment there is one statement you disagree with? 14:27:29 Also, yes: I wrote that line because it made summoners more fun for me. 14:27:40 !apt ko hexes 14:27:41 Ko (SK_HEXES)=0 14:27:46 seems fine 14:27:58 DEEn is decent though yeah 14:28:09 for certain value of books i do, yes 14:28:18 Mo seems pretty good across the board 14:28:38 elliptic: I was thinking it was like -2, maybe that is Ha 14:28:45 that's not the point though! just maybe consider that it's not something that people would generally agree upon 14:28:45 !apt ha hexes 14:28:45 Ha (SK_HEXES)=-1 14:28:52 !apt translocations 14:28:52 Tloc: Sp: 4!, Fe: 4!, Ha: 1, HE: 1, DE: 1, DD: 1, Op: 0, Dj: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, VS: 0, Ko: 0, Na: 0, Ds: -1, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, Fo: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, HO: -2, Vp: -2, Mf: -2, Te: -2, LO: -2, Mi: -3*, Tr: -3*, Og: -3* 14:29:02 is worse yeah, I'm not sure what is better than Ha for En though 14:29:03 ChrisOelmueller: sure, I'll add a subjectifier, good point 14:29:14 dpeg: I think the crawl community hasn't digested something like this before. Has there been a tavern post about it yet? 14:29:24 somebody suggested this a while back but HaWr is probably a good 6th rec for Wr 14:29:28 i read that as "dden" is decent 14:29:30 also bring back hive and evaporate >:( 14:29:45 those things seem a bit too fullsome 14:30:01 Why no Og -> Hu? (I guess you already covered these... feel free to ignore :) 14:30:13 dpeg: Og -> Hu is there 14:30:22 both ways even, i think 14:30:25 oh, blammo 14:30:30 so many little letters 14:30:41 gammafunk: this is *before* the tavern posting :) 14:30:48 cool someone added VS recs 14:30:57 oh also there were some funny comments in the pdf that i read 14:31:02 vsen, interesting 14:31:04 are you aware of those? 14:31:07 also please add VS in the background -> species section if there is anywhere it seems appropriate 14:31:08 !apt VS 14:31:08 VS: Fighting: -1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 3, Shields: -1, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: -3, MP: 1 14:31:10 I removed ak and gl 14:31:21 ChrisOelmueller: no. Where do you find them? 14:31:23 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:26 * SwissStopwatch ponders ogre elementalists 14:31:31 since if hu isn't recommended for those I can't really see how vs would be 14:31:37 well their stealth is good 14:31:44 but that's not ak/gl 14:31:50 i would be interested to try OgIE again now that i suck less (for ozo's armour like you mentioned for Tr) 14:31:54 but i found it pretty hard back in the day 14:31:57 yeah I kept stabby vs and cj 14:32:07 because they generally work very well with fast weapons 14:32:16 and don't have a lot of trouble going unnoticed 14:32:16 dpeg: page 7, lower section 14:32:19 Well.... when I was on streak I tried to play OgIE but I accidentally picked OgFE instead 14:32:23 and then it turned out to be really good 14:32:24 (that one was the funniest) 14:32:33 OgFE of chei was good for me :P 14:32:37 an Og with sticky flame sounds pretty good 14:32:39 like really really really good, actually I think I'll just add it 14:32:39 dpeg: also page 30 14:32:47 dpeg: strategic HUH? 14:32:49 yeah probably a good Og to add 14:32:59 are Mu and Fe the only ones with only one background recommended? 14:33:20 probably 14:33:29 add fe to ar imo 14:33:40 Wz could take Mu 14:33:47 I think that is fine though that only one background recommends each of them 14:33:51 since they really aren't good :P 14:33:55 yes, that is true 14:33:58 maybe Hu is still underrecommended there 14:34:06 after all, nem is very popular for fe 14:34:10 again, this is a benefit of separating the two directions 14:34:13 previously we couldn't do this 14:34:45 but now we can recommend 6 combos to people who choose Mu and not have to recommend them in the other direction 14:35:06 btw, it might be nice to cut a choice or two from some of the 8-9 option ones 14:35:16 Be specifically. 14:35:19 dpeg: then there's one on page 23 14:35:19 though I sort of like DE recommending every caster 14:35:29 Be could lose one of Ha or Ko 14:35:31 or Ds 14:35:39 as and ae could probably welcome vs if more of them are needed 14:35:39 -!- Tedronai has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:42 but Na, Dr, Op really shouldn't have so many recommendations 14:35:46 particularly I like vsae a lot 14:35:58 yeah I think DsBe should not be there and... well, I don't like KoBe at all but I understand it has a following 14:35:59 dck: sounds good 14:36:11 dpeg: and a HUH? in the table on p.30 14:36:17 ChrisOelmueller: yes, I am aware of the stuff in capitals. That's loose ends which will all disappear in one way or another till Sunday. 14:36:27 -!- eith|3 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:45 SwissStopwatch: you realize that DsBe has 130 wins :P 14:36:51 (the most for Ds) 14:36:52 I realize this 14:37:11 yes, ds is popular and be is popular 14:37:18 it's pretty cool since the bite helps doing silly things like holding position to bizap people regardless of mana if you don't know how to bizap very well 14:37:25 could remove Tr, there already are a lot of Tr recommendations 14:37:44 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:47 I could see removing Ko and/or Tr, yeah 14:37:52 okay i fixed ck recommendations 14:37:55 or one of HO or Mi since they are the same thing 14:37:58 replace with Mu 14:37:59 simmarine: thanks 14:38:02 I know they're both popular but I don't think Ds is that great a Be, but I don't think I'll persuade you otherwise so 14:38:07 depending on what the recommended combos are intending to accomplish 14:38:17 it's a combination of things 14:38:32 recommend good races while also promoting some variety through mildly offbeat but valid suggestions 14:38:34 rip muck 14:38:34 I think HO and Mi are both too strong to remove, despite being similar 14:38:49 what are you trying to add for be 14:38:50 they both are prototypical berserkers really 14:38:54 i thing be is a good way to have fun with the highlevel ds muts for weaker players who would have trouble getting them normally 14:39:06 are you guys talking about changing recommended combos? 14:39:07 simmarine: we are trying to remove 1-2 options 14:39:09 though that doesn't necessarily mean it should be recommended 14:39:23 i think ha or ko would be best then 14:39:35 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:39:40 I think ko is worse because ugh that HP 14:39:44 dang if you get your background first you have a lot of HEs 14:39:48 yes ha are rather good 14:40:05 dck: yes, it's the high elf effect where they look like they're good at almost everything 14:40:06 imo do not recommend many HE because of the HE effect 14:40:07 something like HO Ha Og Gr would capture the different "types" of berserkers 14:40:12 and/or actually fix that effect 14:40:20 + maybe Mf since that isn't that obvious 14:40:23 Oggr 14:40:43 Mf should be super obvious because +4 polearms is about the best weapon apt in the game 14:40:53 well I removed Ko and Tr from the Be line, if people really don't like Ds there then I would say add back in Tr 14:40:55 SwissStopwatch: "wow I can't believe I've died so much as a hesk" 14:41:00 you could probably argue that Og's +3 M&F is better 14:41:02 i like dsbe recommendation 14:41:16 and don't like trbe as much too 14:41:21 dck: yes, I think I did exactly this 14:41:34 i think trbe is a good combo to recommend 14:41:34 HESk is not particularly good yes 14:41:36 in terms of trimming Op, i think EE is the first rec i would remove 14:41:40 mine was hewr 14:41:43 The thing is that HE works out great later because their apts are good and their high stats make up for the lowish XP/HP, but early...... 14:41:47 ackack: I think OpEE is one of the best ones... 14:41:50 haha 14:41:51 I think I killed maybe 30 of them 14:41:53 dck: heh, mine was heam 14:42:01 stoneskin early for decent AC, later on statue form is basically the best spell in the game for Op 14:42:12 yes op statue form is great, i hadn't thought about the EE angle on that 14:42:18 and there's only two op recs.... 14:42:28 I'd remove AE first I think 14:42:30 HEAM is something that probably is actually a little good instead of just looking like it 14:42:30 doesn't really need trimming 14:42:33 from Op 14:42:39 wheals: no, in the other direction 14:42:44 or As, but As offers some variety instead of "all of the books" 14:43:11 true, that's a weird asymmetry (though some asymmetries are good here) 14:43:43 why is VpAM recommended when they have awful ranged apts 14:43:47 yes 14:43:48 -2 14:43:52 +4 hexes 14:43:53 but like 4 hexes right 14:44:02 well that is what VpEn is for 14:44:03 could replace them with VS 14:44:11 !apt vs 14:44:12 VS: Fighting: -1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 3, Shields: -1, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: -3, MP: 1 14:44:17 VS don't make vey good am I think 14:44:17 from Dr i might remove Ne or Tm (even though i'm sure they're very good at both) 14:44:20 wheals: this is the Vp -> AM direction 14:44:21 i think huam is better than vsam 14:44:24 oh 14:44:24 although I've yet to play one 14:44:29 i see, yea 14:44:31 so VS not relevant, neither is Hu 14:44:39 recharging scroll is displayed as useless for Felids, but now they can use wands by nagdon 14:44:39 i won a vsam and i normally dont go javs 14:44:39 the question is which other vampires are better 14:44:43 I guess Mo 14:44:43 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:44 but i went javs since otherwise i wouldnt able to hit things 14:44:47 i misread Sp as Vp 14:44:48 VpAM is kind of defensible because that hexes apt lets you do a lot early with the book 14:45:03 oh right well they may be decent if you use throwing 14:45:05 yes, also as it turns out 0 or low skill throwing/bows/xbows is still useful 14:45:08 or not annoying at least 14:45:34 I do think I like VpMo better than VpAM though 14:45:45 maybe VpAM better than VpEE? not sure 14:45:49 VpAM might have a problem transitioning to midgame, I'm not sure 14:46:06 not really 14:46:12 i think am book is good for a long while 14:46:16 you would 14:46:17 i still use it in vaults for instance 14:46:18 :P 14:46:20 well yes 14:46:23 but its pretty good! 14:46:25 hm, also if the logic behind recommending DK for hu is that their exp apt helps with exp lost from servants 14:46:27 ledas all of the things 14:46:32 wouldn't that apply to AK too? 14:46:35 since banish 14:46:35 ledas, also inner flame and enslavement and cause fear 14:46:39 simmarine: btw what do you think of AM recs? HE DE Ko Sp Tr Ce 14:46:40 aka the am book :P 14:46:51 I do like HuAK, but you don't banish as much as you kill dudes with yred pets 14:46:54 in general it seems hard to trim down in the race -> background direction because lots of characters would be fine with most of the books and then it's just taste 14:46:55 koam is interesting 14:46:55 dck: AK loses very little xp to banish 14:46:56 unless you are disto ak 14:46:58 comparatively 14:46:58 oh i guess they do get xbow 14:47:12 i wonder if spam is actually good 14:47:23 And you might very well decide to be disto ak, in which case you would start to lose a lot I guess 14:47:24 ackack: right, I certainly don't mind DE recommending all the casty backgrounds for instance 14:47:25 yeah it's just I didn't think those factors were very big to begin with 14:47:36 lost XP mostly should be irrelevant 14:47:42 AM should go for all words 14:47:47 um tram seems... interesting? 14:47:51 I mean you could say that is synergy for HuHe too I think 14:47:52 Sp Tr Gr Fo Te 14:47:54 it's a tr 14:47:57 with large rocks 14:47:57 giant rock tram 14:48:01 !lm 14:48:02 10708. [2014-02-10 06:22:59] simm the Wrestler (L16 TrAM) reached level 5 of the Shoals on turn 35023. (Shoals:5) 14:48:05 simmarine: large rocks 14:48:23 all i can say is i wouldve rather picked trhu if i was newer 14:48:38 i basically went am to guarantee ledas, i havent trained anything though other than uc and some throwing/fighting 14:48:40 right TrHu probably is more useful since the hexes book isn't great for Tr 14:48:42 simmarine: right, but we are talking about AM -> Tr, not Tr -> AM 14:48:47 yeah i know 14:48:48 i like Tr a lot as an AM rec 14:48:48 that's why AM is not reccomended for tr, yes 14:48:51 simmarine: so that's irrelevant 14:49:12 i dunno, surely theres something else that can fit there 14:49:12 i can see arguing that it's not necessarily very representative of the AM experience 14:49:19 or i guess theres more room? i dont know the number 14:49:21 yes 14:49:21 how about removing a Na -> ?? rec 14:49:24 i like the way ackack said it 14:49:24 Really AM doesn't have very many races that are good at both the hexes part and the ranged weapons part 14:49:32 currently Tm Wr En Wz Cj FE IE AE VM 14:49:36 so you take what you can get I guess 14:49:59 yeah, AM is just a bit awkward (sorry simmarine!) 14:50:03 yes, it is 14:50:06 i know it is 14:50:19 is the existance of uniques a consideration? e.g. Vashnia is NaAM 14:50:21 no 14:50:22 I'm not a NaVM fan but I guess it is an "obvious" choice 14:50:26 the awkward part about AM is it probably can't fit in the DE -> recommendations even if I think it should be there, because of all the other book backgrounds :( 14:50:34 !apt na 14:50:34 Na: Fighting: 0, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 5!, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: 0, Hexes: 0, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 3!, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: 2, MP: 0 14:50:49 N78291: yeah, that's one of the ones I'm more dubious about 14:50:54 SwissStopwatch: maybe Wz -> AM? 14:50:56 i guess looking at the other races theres not much else you can even throw am at 14:51:02 it used to be a classic combo, but that was when meph was absurdly powerful 14:51:02 yeah uniques have zero to do with what a player should play 14:51:17 !lg * na recent s=char 14:51:18 19719 games for * (na recent): 3078x NaTm, 1865x NaFi, 1682x NaWz, 1466x NaVM, 1272x NaSk, 998x NaWr, 929x NaMo, 903x NaEn, 806x NaCj, 738x NaBe, 711x NaIE, 686x NaFE, 564x NaWn, 555x NaAK, 373x NaAM, 368x NaEE, 355x NaAs, 330x NaNe, 328x NaDK, 296x NaGl, 296x NaHe, 290x NaAE, 246x NaPr, 164x NaCK, 159x NaHu, 102x NaAr, 87x NaJr, 72x NaSu 14:51:35 Well arguing that Wz shouldn't be recommended for DE sounds hard to me 14:51:39 like really hard 14:51:41 yes 14:51:48 elliptic: or maybe AE 14:52:01 but swiftness! 14:52:07 certainly i would Wz -> DE, but i'd probably pick most of the other recommended backgrounds over Wz. not sure though 14:52:15 obviously great Spc apt is particularly nice early for Wz 14:52:28 actually how about remove AE, yeah 14:52:42 also, how do people like NaEE? 14:52:46 as a Na choice 14:53:00 why remove ae specifically 14:53:12 i think its going to look weird when every book is recommended except for ae 14:53:18 simmarine: for Na 14:53:19 not for DE 14:53:22 oh 14:53:23 okay 14:53:24 I don't think DE needs changes 14:53:28 me neither 14:53:29 i'd have thought swiftness would make AE a reasonably nice choice for na, but maybe not getting beneath 1 makes it less useful? 14:53:42 ackack: yeah, and it is harder to set up boltbouncing 14:53:45 I'm not sure NaWr is particularly good either 14:53:47 it's still not bad 14:53:48 hmm 14:53:56 NaWr start is sort of cool with blink + poison spit 14:53:56 DEAM not being recommended is "fine" because AM is tricky, I guess 14:54:00 yeah 14:54:08 you blink and spit a lot 14:54:15 and wr gets weapon selection right? 14:54:19 yes 14:54:20 yes 14:54:22 yes 14:54:25 what about Dr? 14:54:26 GrAE is a cool start but I wouldn't add it to the list 14:54:27 oh, for some reason i thought they were short sword 14:54:44 currently Be Tm Cj Ne FE IE AE EE VM 14:54:46 Dr i would ditch Tm or or NE 14:54:53 probably Ne 14:54:56 DrTm probably should not go 14:54:58 yes 14:54:58 I could see Ne yes 14:55:00 no way drtm should go 14:55:07 the asymmetry is the thing 14:55:15 definitely DrTm is good but Tm is going to recommend Dr 14:55:18 you could remove the elementalists so players stop complaining about getting the negative apts 14:55:19 but yes it is easier just to toss Ne 14:55:50 Dr elementalists are so good though... 14:55:54 yes 14:56:09 i could also see chucking VM but this is just because i don't really like VM 14:56:26 DrVM at least doesn't cause complaints about apts 14:56:31 I always like to start Dr casters as VM: great early game, can easily adapt 14:56:31 I would've tossed VM instead but I happen to feel Ne is a little unintuitive for some people so 14:56:40 okay, what about --Wn? 14:56:43 i just played drvm and i think its a good recommendation 14:56:45 It is sort of a coinflip really 14:56:47 currently HE HO Sp Tr Ce Mf Mi Dr 14:56:54 since at xl7 you can get a breath to help with poison immunities 14:57:03 I think recommending hewn is a bit cruel 14:57:06 i like the HEWn for variety but HE is definitely the odd man out there 14:57:07 yeeeah 14:57:10 yeah okay 14:57:15 I'd remove HE for Hu or Ds 14:57:28 huwn, almost a word 14:57:42 N78291: I'd like to remove one more if adding one 14:57:53 I sort of like adding Ds though 14:58:00 maybe sp? idk 14:58:01 toss Sp, it's definitely good 14:58:03 how about Mi actually 14:58:03 yes i was thinking sp 14:58:09 MiWn with no weapon is so bad 14:58:09 but i would probably turn all of my SpWn into stabbers 14:58:17 I feel like Hu should be there instead of Ds, isn't Hu a little shorter than it should be on recommendations from background? 14:58:34 ackack: thats precisely what i ended up doing 14:58:45 I could see removing Sp and/or Mi, yeah 14:58:46 I'd remove TrWn since that is lame 14:58:46 the problem is Ds also "should" be there 14:58:52 i mean with any Wn ultimately you're going to play to your race's strengths i think 14:58:56 yes, i assume sp tr ce are there just because "theyre good races" 14:59:00 with things like Sp or Tr it's just exaggerated 14:59:03 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:59:04 do people really think that Wn -> Hu is a good idea? 14:59:13 Ce is at least fairly versatile 14:59:20 (and very good early) 14:59:30 Well, are we recommending solely on power level 14:59:34 well hu can normally make use of most things he can get 14:59:35 * dpeg realises he has never seriously played Hu or Wn. 14:59:37 certainly it is not the strongest one 14:59:38 i think the Wn recommendations are really good if you're trying to win a Wn, yes 14:59:38 i think they go together well because people like to do the whole "adapt to your start" 15:01:46 Hu or Ds definitely seem more thematic 15:01:46 i dont know if its actually "good" 15:01:46 how about replacing Tr and Mi by Hu and Ds 15:01:46 certainly trwn is better but you just go uc 15:01:46 i feel like it might make more sense to have HO go than Mi 15:01:46 that sounds good to me 15:01:46 so HO Sp Ce Mf Dr Hu Ds 15:01:46 yes 15:01:46 wheals: HO is more versatile 15:01:46 seems reasonable 15:01:46 dpeg: go start a HuWn <3 15:01:46 true... 15:01:49 HO is kind of like Mi except instead of every weapon, it uses almost every weapon and a lot of spells well 15:01:49 DEMIGODWANDERER 15:01:49 not Dg, sorry :P 15:01:49 :( 15:01:49 rip 15:01:49 :( 15:01:49 ok, remove mi then 15:01:49 cool, all backgrounds are between 5 and 7 recs now 15:01:49 I'd want to suggest the Japan Special but I just can't 15:01:49 can we add an easter egg for dgwn at least 15:01:49 (optionally do this from crawl) 15:01:49 do we want to add one for Wz and Su? 15:01:49 SwissStopwatch, can't let everyone know the secret! 15:01:49 ChrisOelmueller: orb blurb is in japansese 15:01:49 yes 15:01:49 yes 15:01:49 !lg * dgwn won s=name 15:01:49 25 games for * (dgwn won): BirdoPrey, tempdgwn, yobbo, heteroy, Surr, 78291, procodile, kraphead, dgwnrobin, bupper, nyaakitty, zkyp, gammafunk, Thurston, bmfx, SGrunt, dck, MorganLeah, AStranger, Basil, agentgt, clouded, johnnyzero, rax, Thrkk 15:01:49 currently Wz is HE DE Na Dr Op 15:01:54 and Su is DE Ko Mf Te Vp 15:01:56 the true crawl players 15:01:59 You should be instructed in DgWn play by the Japanese masters in person anyway 15:02:06 神々の末裔 放浪者 15:02:08 is NaSu any good? mine sucked but it seemed like it should be a good idea 15:02:18 -!- LexAckson has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:20 I think it is sort of bad 15:02:31 I found vssu pretty good 15:02:32 Grunt: I don't like humans! 15:02:32 NaSu should be mandatory, it's Piglet from Winnie the Pooh in Finnish 15:02:39 hah 15:02:41 i like hosu a lot but that might just be me 15:02:48 !apt vs su 15:02:49 Could not understand "su" 15:02:50 my thinking had been that the summons might help buy space to run, but in practice that didn't seem to work very well 15:02:52 !apt vs summ 15:02:52 VS (SK_SUMMONINGS)=0 15:02:55 since you get your spells at decent power fast and then go do other things 15:02:58 I liked KoWz okay when I played it but that was a while ago and I think it has probably changed enough that I'm not sure I should recommend it 15:02:58 !apt summ 15:02:59 Summ: Te: 2!, DE: 1, Ds: 0, Op: 0, Dj: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, VS: 0, Ko: 0, HO: 0, Vp: 0, Mf: 0, LO: 0, Fo: 0, Na: 0, Fe: 0, Ha: -1, Gh: -1, HE: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, DD: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Sp: -2, Mi: -3*, Tr: -3*, Og: -3* 15:02:59 what kind of Su are we trying to recommend? 15:03:07 BATTLESUMMONER 15:03:08 N78291: good ones, with a bit of variety 15:03:19 Te and Ko are just bad DESu if these are pure summoner recommendations 15:03:35 HOSu sounds good if you want a melee summoner type 15:03:36 Ko is lame at least yes 15:03:45 HO sounds reasonable to me 15:03:48 for Wz, you could recommend Og or Mu(!) 15:04:20 okay I'm replacing Ko with HO VS for now 15:04:24 hmm, could you recommend Ds 15:04:32 well with vssu you're pretty much locked into having to melee with your summons 15:04:32 HO spellcasting apt is not fun 15:04:45 isn't that a design goal 15:04:46 DsWz I mean, I am looking at races that recommend Wz 15:04:48 but if you do that then you also get free extra mp to summon more things 15:04:51 vssu is pretty bad as a pure summoner 15:04:55 if that matters 15:04:59 yeah 15:05:06 no hp + guardian spirit 15:05:14 hm, would Dr be better than VS? 15:05:26 I find meleeing with summons pretty fun though so I enjoyed mine a lot 15:05:31 that's the main other thing that comes to mind... or Hu I guess 15:05:38 since when they die you just summon another one 15:05:43 as you always have the mp 15:05:58 eh, VS sounds more different 15:06:09 okay, Wz -> ?? 15:06:12 husu sounds good just because Hu doesn't seem hugely represented in that section 15:06:20 Ds, Og? 15:06:23 i like Og 15:06:25 Dg? 15:06:28 OgWz is sort of bad IMO 15:06:29 dswz is popular at any rate 15:06:31 Dg not bad either 15:06:31 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:32 hmm maybe Dg is good 15:06:45 I think Og probably is bad I was just looking at ??? -> Wz 15:06:46 dswz has problems killing things on d:1 15:06:51 I don't like DgWz personally because you really want to find another book 15:06:59 i feel like that's true of all Wz though 15:07:06 Hmmmn, what playstyle are we looking for maybe 15:07:13 ackack: but others can pick a god to get a book? 15:07:15 true, but other species can worship a god who gives a book 15:07:18 ok 15:07:18 yeah 15:07:27 It probably is possible to recommend a "melee" race that just uses minor magic as versatile support 15:07:36 I enjoyed trwz but well 15:07:51 TrWz is good, not sure about recommending it here though 15:07:59 I guess DrWz already is sort of that melee wizard 15:08:00 trwz is probably the only wz i like any more but yes maybe not recommend it 15:08:03 if you want to play a wz then don't choose yrwz probably 15:08:10 how about Hu 15:08:18 sounds reasonable 15:08:19 Hu is good because it doesn't seem much used elsewhere in that section 15:08:20 hu or dr sounds good 15:08:24 Dr already there 15:08:26 dr is there 15:08:31 it is HE DE Na Dr Op currently 15:08:33 or even mu if you want to use it more 15:08:36 !apt fo 15:08:37 Fo: Fighting: 0, Short: 1, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: 1, Bows: -2, Xbows: 0, Throw: -2*, Armour: 2!, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 3, Shields: 0, UC: 0, Splcast: 0, Conj: -1, Hexes: 2, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: 1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 3!, Inv: 2, Evo: 2, Exp: 2!, HP: -1, MP: 0 15:08:37 yes, i agree on Miu 15:08:39 I am not sure that any book background should have Og recommended but Og should have at least one recommended casting background (which you have atm) 15:08:40 er, Mu 15:08:55 dpeg: yeah, we have AM Wz FE recommended for Og 15:09:27 wasn't that EE a moment ago? Anyway, looks good! 15:09:44 MuWz of Sif felt like a legitimately pretty good character to me when i played it, but i haven't played other Wz, so 15:09:58 I could see Mu, yeah 15:10:00 there aren't any book backgrounds that recommend og though 15:10:03 eh, we can add it 15:10:08 wheals: that's fine IMO 15:10:13 MuWz throwback 15:10:14 wheals: which is probably alright 15:10:18 yeah, just wanted to make that clear 15:10:23 !apt Og 15:10:24 Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -4*, Long: -3*, Axes: -3*, Maces: 3!, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -3, Charms: -3, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -3*, Poison: -3*, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0 15:10:42 ogam does seem like a popular am but probably not the best 15:10:48 okay, background -> species recs look balanced at least, though if anyone sees something they don't like feel free to mention it 15:10:59 but let's try to go back to species -> background 15:11:10 to try to get some of the 5s to 6? 15:11:14 yeah 15:11:17 could you give the spreadsheet url again? 15:11:20 Ce -> ?? 15:11:20 how about add Sk to Mi 15:11:27 !https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As51ya2bLlkGdHV2bjl3RTk2T1A5eTJxeW5iY0loSHc&usp=drive_web#gid=1 15:11:32 thanks 15:11:36 MiDK maybe? 15:11:37 CeMo maybe 15:11:41 !apt mf 15:11:42 Mf: Fighting: 1, Short: 2, Long: 1, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: 4!, Staves: -2, Slings: -2, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: 0, Armour: -3*, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 2, Shields: 0, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: -2, Hexes: 0, Charms: 1, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Fire: -3*, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Poison: 1, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: 0, HP: 0, MP: 0 15:11:42 is MiSk actually good 15:11:45 or DK I guess 15:11:54 well probably MiDK is better 15:11:56 so maybe just that 15:11:58 I was thinking maybe CeWr 15:11:59 I'd rather see HODK (which is somehow missing) 15:12:05 since +3 invo 15:12:14 well HO is pretty full but hm 15:12:17 HODK would make sense, what HO would you like to remove though? 15:12:22 and yred doesn't use invo that much 15:12:23 CeWr is more different from what's already there and seems fine 15:12:26 dang, fe recommends vm 15:12:31 It already has AK and He representing invo 15:12:32 poor new fe players 15:12:37 vm recommends fe! 15:12:38 dck: why? FeVM is good 15:12:38 HOGl maybe 15:12:57 well yes it's just it emphasizes a lot running around from things 15:13:03 HOGl is there 15:13:05 that is sort of what Fe is about 15:13:06 which fe already does on its own 15:13:08 yeah 15:13:14 so it works well! 15:13:15 wheals: right, I would remove that for HODK 15:13:17 ha 15:13:25 If you're going to do it anyway you might as well have the things you're running from die of poison while you di it 15:13:27 could replace HOHu with HODK too 15:13:41 !apt HO throw 15:13:41 HO (SK_THROWING)=0 15:13:45 cosign MiDK as another Mi, MiAK might be ok too 15:13:48 I guess that's not amazing 15:14:06 Mm yeah HOHu is slightly sketchy as far as apts 15:14:18 !apt ho crossbows 15:14:18 HO (SK_CROSSBOWS)=-1 15:14:29 !apt gh invocations 15:14:30 Gh (SK_INVOCATIONS)=1 15:14:31 hm, I thought that was better 15:14:31 I would've expected them to not have -1 xbows but they do so 15:14:31 honestly i just said that since i can't even remember seeing one game 15:14:34 !apt gh 15:14:34 Gh: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -1, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: -1, Throw: -1, Armour: -1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: 2, Shields: -1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -2, Conj: -2, Hexes: -2, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: 0, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Fire: -2, Ice: 1, Air: -2, Earth: 1, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: 1, MP: -1 15:14:41 javelin HOHu is very good IMO 15:14:48 I think it is just because crossbow warlords and knights are so terrifying 15:14:54 !lg . hohu 15:14:55 1. hyperbolic the Axe Maniac (L27 HOHu), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-05-04 17:40:16, with 13986733 points after 111974 turns and 8:51:43. 15:14:58 that was elfrobin :P 15:15:14 but maybe still replace with HODK, yeah 15:15:42 hm, what about Gh 15:15:43 in general DK seems like pretty good default filler for meleeish types (like maybe GhDK simply because i'm blanking on what else seems preferable) 15:15:53 I don't really like GhDK 15:16:03 Yeah, I mean it's offbeat but there are still 3 very distinct styles of HO represented in HO if you remove Hu from their list 15:16:03 Gh likes eating corpses 15:16:06 HODK sounds pretty good with the huge Invo+Axe apts 15:16:14 hmm, good point on corpses 15:16:21 well Tr likes eating them too 15:16:23 as a gh I normally prefer eating corpses than raising them yeah 15:16:33 but I feel it probably is not exceptional 15:16:33 i played GhSk recently, it's not really anything special but it's not bad 15:16:35 I mean you get ghoul buddies I guess 15:16:36 SwissStopwatch: not as much really 15:16:50 dck: ghoulfriends 15:16:50 and Sk doesn't seem super recommended in general 15:16:51 so you can feel like a family again at some point 15:17:04 I could see GhWr or GhSk 15:17:14 I guess spectral weapon doesn't work with unarmed though... 15:17:17 Wr is probably better b - yes that 15:17:26 clearly GhAM 15:17:28 GhWr sounds fine 15:17:29 hahaha 15:17:37 there's also GhNe 15:17:42 we need at least one troll rec 15:17:42 which I know some people like 15:17:42 GhAM has to join DgWn in the easter eggs I think 15:17:45 gham and start them with a certain 15:17:46 oh it is there 15:17:46 Ne is already on the list though i think 15:17:47 well Vm should be more or less nice 15:17:49 yes 15:18:05 I think I'll put Wr for now 15:18:10 ghwr definitely ok 15:18:26 -!- Hauntwave has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:31 Mm now I'm reminded of why I suggested MiSk (because book combo!!!) 15:18:40 but that doesn't need tinkering with 15:18:46 mi not having a book sounds fine 15:18:56 yes it's kind of not what they are about 15:19:01 those illiterate hotheads 15:19:03 yeah, I'm fine with Mi not recommending any books and DE only recommending pure book combos 15:19:11 or rather, DE not getting a weapons 15:19:20 s/ a / any / 15:19:22 yes, as much as I like DEAM :( 15:19:29 there just is not room 15:19:34 debe best elf 15:19:40 it is a rec AM! 15:19:47 yeah, it's about the best AM 15:19:50 should Te have a nonbook background? 15:19:55 since it doesn't 15:19:58 it's just not a prototypical DE 15:20:00 Hm, HE recommends sk but not hu? 15:20:05 N78291: are there any that aren't really bad? 15:20:05 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:11 wow Te doesn't even have weapon backgrounds 15:20:11 Te could recommend Be I guess 15:20:16 yes maybe tebe 15:20:20 !lg . DEBe 15:20:21 2. Bloax the Elven Blade (L27 DEBe), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2013-08-17 11:55:24, with 1936742 points after 99617 turns and 8:37:28. 15:20:21 but that isnt a very popular combo iirc 15:20:23 I could see TeBe yes 15:20:25 DEBe best elf 15:20:45 Te does have this problem where even though they have good weapon apts they have a very bad "not dying in combat" apt so 15:20:51 yes 15:20:55 good apts in everything except hp 15:20:58 or temo I guess 15:21:08 dck: maybe add HE -> Hu, yeah 15:21:09 TeMo sounds like a pretty awful start to me 15:21:18 at the very beginning, anyway 15:22:12 okay, now we just need someone to write the required code to support two-way recommendations :P 15:22:13 well it's more about camouflaging the he effect a bit I think 15:22:24 (ontoclasm: any progress with that?) 15:22:28 since sk puts it straight under the spotlight 15:22:50 sk recommending he is kind of awkward I guess 15:23:05 I sort of like HE recommending at least one combo that can start with a long blade 15:23:13 I mean I guess now that it can pick longblades maybe that helps? 15:23:17 yes 15:23:22 imo part of hesk's problem was not being able to pick the weapon type HE wanted to use 15:23:25 yes 15:23:32 HEAK seemed okay last tournament 15:23:34 oh right sk can get falchions now 15:24:03 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:53 does hafi not get a shield or does it not affect it much? 15:25:04 it gets a buckler nowadays I think 15:25:07 yes 15:25:12 which is quite good 15:26:30 Hm I thought sp would get cj recommended 15:26:34 since they get dazzle 15:26:44 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:11 I could get behind Sp -> Cj rec, though more for just kiting with conj spells than for dazzling spray :P 15:27:12 you probably could legit recommend it for battlesphere too 15:27:15 yeah 15:27:26 good charms + hexes apt is pretty good for the book in general 15:27:36 spvm is the classic kiting combo 15:27:45 oh how is SpVM not there 15:27:47 nabe is the most bearable na for me, i feel like it should be there 15:27:49 wow yeah 15:27:52 though i see reasons not to 15:28:03 like fevm but you can also play dressup 15:28:04 :P 15:28:06 !hs * spvm 15:28:07 8228. Yermak the Acrobat (L25 SpVM), worshipper of Ashenzari, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2012-12-31 03:48:24, with 37880977 points after 33281 turns and 9:33:11. 15:28:13 maybe Sp has too many things now 15:28:22 8 is okay for species I think 15:28:26 mm 8, I guess is fine 15:28:35 I'd like to stay away from 9 aside from DE though 15:28:36 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:46 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 15:28:59 natural that a strong species like Sp would push up against that 15:29:07 I could see Na -> Be instead of Na -> VM 15:29:36 or instead of Na -> Cj maybe 15:29:45 elliptic: What's the idea with the directions you're considering (e.g. Na -> Be)? 15:29:56 cj does seem dull there 15:30:01 gammafunk: the direction means that this is a recommendation if you select Na first 15:30:05 oh, ok 15:30:20 gammafunk: whereas if you select Be first, Na wouldn't necessarily be recommended 15:30:23 tree seems better than trwz? 15:30:32 why does everyone say tree 15:30:34 so that's also how you read those two main groups in the spreadsheet, I assume 15:30:43 I think people like statue trolls or something 15:30:50 at least for the far-right column 15:30:51 probably since earth is their best magic apt 15:30:53 it has a decent apt! 15:30:57 gammafunk: just in case you are confused, the grids are not what we are working on 15:31:03 and you don't have to train a million skills 15:31:05 gammafunk: the grids are just what combos are currently recommended 15:31:09 yeah, I think I get it now. ty 15:31:10 well the good thing about wz is that a lot of its spells don't need a lot of spellpower to be good 15:31:19 I think probably TrIE is better than TrEE but TrWz is legit anyway 15:31:25 and they do things other than killing the dudes 15:31:32 which tr are already great at by being tr 15:31:37 which is fine if you go ash or jiyva or something very specialized, but not generally 15:32:00 I could see removing TrDK in favor of another casty background 15:32:13 EE, say 15:32:23 kind of surprised only one book background recommends Gr 15:32:39 Wr is another good utility book for tr 15:32:42 Gr is maybe not prototypical enough but it would be a legit recommendation from a lot of them 15:32:50 oh right, TrWr is actually really nice 15:32:52 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:32:55 is it 15:32:58 does anybody have GrVM experience in one direction or the other 15:33:03 !lg . grvm 15:33:04 1. wheals the Envenomancer (L27 GrVM), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-01-13 00:28:38, with 1356456 points after 138210 turns and 7:53:48. 15:33:12 !apt gr 15:33:12 Gr: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: 1, Polearms: -1, Staves: 1, Slings: -1, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 2, Shields: 1, UC: 1!, Splcast: -1, Conj: 1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -2, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: -2, MP: 0 15:33:22 free otr!!! 15:33:27 oh they have conj +1 15:33:31 yeah that's the thing 15:33:32 I didn't know that 15:33:35 why do they have that :P 15:33:41 excellent question 15:33:42 oh, I removed SpCj an SpVM earlier because of their -3 conj and greatplayers don't really play them 15:33:52 they like killing dudes! 15:33:53 (I thought you would've caught that when people were complaining about it) 15:33:58 i could see kone instead of kofe or koie 15:34:01 (sp ->cj/vm I mean) 15:34:01 too many ies and fes imo 15:34:17 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:30 -!- simmarine has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:34:30 kone isn't that great IMO, since VD is less good with less HP 15:34:54 anyway I could certainly see having more Gr casty things recommended, in either direction 15:35:00 for some reason I thought they had -1 conj 15:35:01 -!- gbrunch is now known as gbeene 15:35:03 instead of +1 15:35:05 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:23 clearly nerf it instead 15:35:26 but hm 15:35:34 i was afraid more of that :P 15:35:39 wow ogfe got there and not ogie 15:35:42 Gr -> FE? Gr -> VM? 15:35:49 swiss clearly an influential force 15:35:55 it's not just me! 15:35:59 absolutego: well, sticky flame is nice with low-ish spell power 15:36:07 vm sounds a bit better I think 15:36:08 VM or AE have the spell combos 15:36:15 and ozo's armour isn't quite as good with poor ice apt 15:36:25 AE should definitely not recommend Gr 15:36:37 we need to leave the tech secret 15:36:44 I'm not convinced olgreb's on grvm is actually good though 15:36:45 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:02 anyway that game cheated by having the other olgreb's on d:4 15:37:11 I added Gr -> VM anyway 15:37:35 in the other direction, I could see replacing VM -> Na with VM -> Gr 15:37:49 or FE -> Ds with FE -> Gr 15:38:03 how about VM -> Fo 15:38:18 that sounds bad 15:38:27 Was away for a bit: aren't you worried that Tr -> Tm,Wz gives wrong impressions? 15:38:27 Fo doesn't even get recs does it 15:38:37 not yet 15:38:38 starting with cure poison is pretty good for not dying to an adder 15:39:04 or the first blowgun ko. 15:39:05 N78291: that's a point in favour of Fo -> VM, no? 15:39:07 N78291: that would be a reason for Fo -> VM 15:39:31 makes sense 15:39:39 though they do have +2 poison I think 15:39:48 SwissStopwatch: we do want to add Fo -> ?? recs and such, while species are in trunk 15:39:54 mm. 15:40:06 but I think maybe not the other direction until we are pretty sure they are getting into stable 15:40:12 Hm, what wrong impression? TrTm is mildly weird to me but TrWz seems good for indicating that Tr can find low-level spells very useful 15:40:29 TrTm is a bit weird maybe yes 15:40:38 could do TrEE instead 15:40:41 isn't it one of the more popular ones? 15:40:43 yeah 15:40:58 !won * tr 15:40:59 * (tr) has won 545 times in 80913 games (0.67%): 95xTrMo 54xTrBe 43xTrHu 40xTrCK 34xTrFi 22xTrDK 21xTrTm 19xTrEE 18xTrWn 16xTrWr 15xTrAr 15xTrAs 15xTrHe 14xTrGl 13xTrIE 12xTrAE 10xTrAM 10xTrWz 9xTrFE 9xTrNe 9xTrSu 8xTrAK 8xTrSk 6xTrPr 5xTrCj 5xTrCr 5xTrEn 5xTrSt 4xTrVM 2xTrJr 2xTrPa 1xTrRe 1xTrTh 15:41:09 of course, so is TrCK 15:41:33 I mean, it's unarmed and trolls are good at that, but blade hands is not as efficient for Tr because claws 3 15:41:42 and same for other forms I guess 15:41:44 Tr can probably carry anything, but as a new player I'd never have made the mental connection to book backgrounds (maybe that's exactly your point, though) 15:42:00 Hm, I recommended ne for vs although they have spriggan hps so they don't benefit from vd that much. 15:42:11 Some of these are supposed to be slightly offbeat to get people thinking about things like that, yeah 15:42:15 but their good regen lets them use pain a lot better 15:42:35 Not offbeat at the expense of being good, mind 15:42:44 !apt Fe 15:42:45 Fe: Fighting: 0, Short: N/A, Long: N/A, Axes: N/A, Maces: N/A, Polearms: N/A, Staves: N/A, Slings: N/A, Bows: N/A, Xbows: N/A, Throw: N/A, Armour: N/A, Dodge: 3, Stealth: 4, Shields: N/A, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 4!, Charms: 2, Summ: 0, Nec: 0, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 1, Fire: -1, Ice: -2, Air: -1, Earth: -2, Poison: -1, Inv: 0, Evo: 2, Exp: -1, HP: -4*, MP: 2 15:42:53 is FeAr going to be a recommendation? 15:42:57 man I hope so 15:43:03 probably not 15:43:05 I'm a little afraid of that 15:43:13 though I think it isn't terrible for Fe -> Ar 15:43:30 evoc is probably one of the most common skills on winning felids 15:43:30 but non-casty Fe is such a pain to start 15:43:57 fear^nemelex practically a caster 15:44:02 i guess we can't find anyone with FeAr experience that's relevant 15:44:06 hi 15:44:09 I imagine those wands would make a big difference 15:44:30 ChrisOelmueller: unfortunately Ar doesn't start with nem worship 15:44:33 iunno 15:44:38 might be an illusion 15:44:39 elliptic: can fix that 15:44:43 but TeMo is pretty damn strong 15:44:46 FeJr recommendation 15:44:47 elliptic: recommend fejr instead 15:44:48 ChrisOelmueller: and rename the background 15:44:57 yes FeJr was definitely good 15:45:48 any more thoughts on sneaking in FE -> Gr or IE -> Gr or VM -> Gr 15:46:09 I was thinking maybe replace FE -> Ds and IE -> Ds with -> Gr 15:46:29 or maybe Dg 15:46:33 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:34 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:46:35 probably not Dg 15:46:42 since they get huge Int for huge spellpower 15:46:51 and that works quite well with conj books 15:46:51 Ds is also more overrepresented currently 15:47:00 given that it is fun but not actually very strong right at the start 15:47:03 Ds is a little more borderline for those backgrounds anyway I guess 15:47:05 I think grfe is more solid than dsfe 15:48:03 and can probably open up for more distinct play than dsfe that otherwise newer players wouldn't think of 15:48:15 Gr is generally a very solid race. 15:48:22 both in figurative and literal sense 15:48:25 mmm cj -> gr a good idea? 15:48:37 since gr get a lot of defenses for free and can fight reasonably well without a lot of investment 15:48:38 GrFE and HOFE probably are similarish, and I've played HOFE and it definitely has upsides 15:48:45 dr and dg are odd choices in a way 15:49:03 hofe is good 15:49:13 absolutego: it isn't quite as good because -1 hexes and charms and less incentive to melee 15:49:19 (about cj -> gr) 15:49:29 oh yes, i forgot about the hexes thing 15:50:19 anyway obviously we could keep tweaking this forever, but I feel like things are in a pretty reasonable state at this point 15:50:55 does someone want to come up with Fo -> ??, LO -> ??, Dj -> ?? recs? 15:51:03 Dj -> /dev/null 15:51:26 Dj -> not existing 15:51:28 I'm not going to touch them because I haven't played them 15:51:33 EE VM and Hu at least for Fo 15:51:37 LO can just be HO 15:51:45 which also is a good reason for it not existing in this sense 15:51:47 wait 15:52:04 oh for a split second I thought Fo was Fe and went "wait, FeHu doesn't exist" 15:52:04 does LODK work 15:52:10 or does the halo kill stuff 15:52:16 elliptic: certainly Fo -> VM 15:52:21 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:22 -!- ToastyP has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 15:52:24 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:28 -!- exant has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:52:33 xw plays LODK! (not very well though) 15:52:44 Dj -> Re, Dj -> St, Dj -> Pa, Dj -> Cr, and Dj -> Th all sounds good imo 15:52:44 elliptic: it kills stuff but doesn't turn it hostile 15:53:10 okay I put LO recs as the same as HO, and for Fo I have VM He EE Hu at the moment 15:53:26 I thought fogl was pretty enjoyable when I played it 15:53:31 supposedly they're not bad at AM 15:53:33 and now it has more hps 15:53:36 oh wait 15:53:40 FoAM and FoAK 15:53:42 they don't get helmets anymore 15:53:45 LO could have Tm though I'm not sure if it is actually good or just "look at that apt" 15:53:53 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:55 !apt Fo Hp 15:53:55 Fo (SK_HP)=-1 15:54:19 well "look at that apt" means quick bladehands 15:54:22 and bladehands is known as murdermode 15:54:23 and does anyone know anything about what Djs are decent other than "let's remove them" 15:54:23 might as well recommend fofi since it is really popular 15:54:47 all i can say is that every single casting start i tried is awful early on 15:54:55 and by awful i mean ^qyes awful 15:54:59 I guess FoFi gets a shield for shield + 2-handed if you want 15:55:03 okay 15:55:15 i have not much tolerance for those things though 15:55:27 Dj can't berserk currently, right? 15:55:28 I won djam but I think some weapon apts were nerfed after that 15:55:29 right 15:55:31 djck for xomscumming 15:55:38 !apt dj 15:55:38 Dj: Fighting: -1, Short: -2, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: -1, Bows: -1, Xbows: 0, Throw: -1, Armour: 1, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: 0, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: 1, Hexes: 2, Charms: 0, Summ: 0, Nec: -2, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: 3!, Ice: -3, Air: 2, Earth: -3*, Poison: -1, Inv: -1*, Evo: 2, Exp: -1, HP: -1, MP: 0 15:55:40 it cannot, yeah 15:55:47 i think that might be my fault 15:56:03 okay done 15:56:25 haha 15:56:26 looks good 15:57:25 now we just need someone to code it 15:57:51 hm 15:58:03 chei has one advantage if you get slouch rather early 15:58:09 and that is not dying horribly to bees 15:58:32 aw mube isn't recommended anywhere 15:58:41 rip 15:58:51 (I'm just finishing up functionality for non-bidirectional recommendations...) 15:59:09 gj grunt 15:59:33 -!- edhmaster has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:59:57 (Quick, someone point out a recommendation that isn't bidirectional like that so I can mention it in the commit.) 16:00:05 muie 16:00:08 HuBe 16:00:26 CK, Wn 16:00:31 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:00:34 (and explain which is recommended and which isn't <_<) 16:00:50 CK -> Tr is recommended 16:00:53 Tr -> CK is not 16:00:58 is probably a good example 16:01:15 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:01:35 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:02:58 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:26 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:40 poof. 16:03:55 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2626-gd32053b: Allow job and species recommendations to be independent. 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 537+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d32053b2e538 16:04:02 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:04:04 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:09 i wonder what i missed 16:04:23 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:57 lotm is kinda deceptive, a lot of the tmuts you want to use is cancelled from heat aura 16:05:21 Grunt: cool, how does it handle the "random recommended combo" thing? 16:05:33 mm 16:05:41 ooh 16:05:42 thats interesting 16:05:57 Grunt: there was some suggestion of making it randomly choose a direction and then pick a random combo recommended in that direction 16:06:47 Yeah, right now it rolls the species first (that was in the original code). 16:07:12 also i dont know how trivial this would be, but i think random would be cool if i could random a character/background after selecting the other and getting prompts if i want to play it or not 16:07:18 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:37 I'll do the direction thing. 16:07:43 right now if you elect to random your other selection half you dont get a prompt 16:08:26 oh nice, the species entry vault is hidden behind rock wall, not permarock wall 16:08:42 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:43 hm so who wants to copy the recommendations on the spreadsheet into ng-restr.cc now 16:08:49 volunteers accepted 16:08:53 simmarine: it's stone actually 16:09:02 maybe its stone in trunk, my game isnt updated 16:09:12 ah, yes, pubby changed it 16:09:13 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:09:16 cool 16:09:21 i guess because of fo if pubby was involved 16:10:00 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:08 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:33 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2627-g78bc2c4: Pick job first for random characters half the time (elliptic). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 12+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=78bc2c47197d 16:10:38 I changed it from rock -> stone (I never saw permarock) 16:10:51 (if no volunteers then I can do it, but I don't want to start doing it if someone else is doing it already...) 16:10:54 simmarine: did you find the golem summon useful? 16:11:01 N78291: oh i was going to give my responses 16:11:10 [23:09:13] maybe its stone in trunk, my game isnt updated 16:11:14 overall it was very disappointing but i think the changes dracoomega made may make it not so useless 16:11:28 when it worked it was cool, but most of the time it just didnt do anything 16:11:34 you guys really don't want people to abuse the little things do you 16:11:49 i got a little bit of use out of the golem in vaults after updating 16:11:51 i guess inner flame being consistent would make it overpowered maybe? 16:11:53 -!- coited has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:00 will try again from a low level in a bit maybe 16:12:05 ill have to remake my husu or something though and test it again 16:12:15 also i dont necessarily agree with lightning spire getting 2 range vs 1 range 16:12:18 i quite liked it at 1 range 16:12:28 (I'm about to leave for work, so it isn't me >_>) 16:12:42 one thing that might be helpful is to list what more spellpower actually does for summon spells in the description 16:12:54 also my husu of tso turned into a huie when i found frost and ice early on 16:13:04 since unlike conj -> more damage, and hexes -> more success, it varies with the spells 16:13:29 true 16:13:56 does haunt benefit from more spellpower at all? 16:13:57 guess ill quit this guy 16:14:02 oh right 16:14:05 N78291: he found sniper 16:14:15 so he also turned into a crossbolt conjurer 16:14:31 ps sniper is absolutely silly at 0 xbow 16:14:48 i guess i can harass Grunt about it later 16:14:52 s??badcrd[rod] 16:14:52 badcrd[3/3]: Just have a rod that's named a 'crossbow', make it depend very slightly on Dex and not on Evo and consume one bolt for every activation, and you pretty much have how a crossbow behaves 16:14:58 dck: more summons per cast 16:15:20 this was a good husu though 16:15:21 Oh, I thought that was removed when the spell changed 16:15:25 %dump simm 16:15:25 http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/simm/simm.txt 16:15:25 does this work 16:15:41 150 lightning spire casts 16:19:35 (I started copying recs from the spreadsheet, so nobody else should) 16:19:57 -!- BobBarker has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:20:12 hahaha 16:20:18 Dj -> Jr 16:21:02 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:22:49 N78291: i have noticed something weird with summoning recently and maybe you have too? 16:23:03 when i summon things they tend to appear behind walls sometimes, and i dont think this was common behavior before 16:23:34 that happens in 0.14 too, not sure if it is new 16:23:51 possibly it is old and no one cared when they could attack out of LOS? 16:24:08 i dont remember the last time i heavily used summons but it couldnt have been that long ago 16:24:14 and i dont remember that behavior 16:24:35 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:04 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:26 i found a bug, this sewer entrance attacked me 16:25:35 -!- Tedronai has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:26:37 Hm. 16:27:02 i'd report bugs like this on mantis 16:27:17 Can vault warden door sealing be changed into a status effect they get? 16:27:38 Since as it is if you have more than one in LoS you have to guess at who is sealing the doors. 16:27:51 doesn't it say in xv? 16:27:55 nope 16:29:15 yeah probably also hard to track it that way 16:29:32 i wonder what an acid blob is doing on lair:8 16:29:49 <|amethyst> Bloax: where's the Slime entrance 16:29:50 <|amethyst> ? 16:29:56 ive seen acid blobs on lair:8 16:30:03 * Lightli wonders what the plan is with Dj 16:30:04 Bloax: trying to get converts for jiyva 16:30:20 -!- Tedronai has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:34 spreading the word 16:31:03 -!- Quazifuji has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:37 I've seen acid blobs on Lair:$ before too 16:32:50 I also once saw a fire crab on Lair:$ though 16:33:52 |amethyst: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Screenies/nastyslimes.png 16:34:12 I mean teleport exists for a reason and all. 16:34:15 acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 78-121 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx, 12drown | XP: 2420 | Sp: s.acid (3d7) | Sz: small | Int: plant. 16:34:15 %??Acid blob 16:34:26 but spawning this alongside these things; 16:34:28 yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-51 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 205 | Sz: Large | Int: animal. 16:34:28 %??Yak 16:34:31 is kinda overkill 16:35:01 <|amethyst> so, where is the lair entrance? 16:35:03 <|amethyst> err 16:35:05 <|amethyst> the slime entrance 16:35:10 lair:8 16:35:14 <|amethyst> is it on L:8 ? 16:35:19 yep 16:35:20 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:29 -!- Tedronai has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:33 (the lair entrance was at d:11 just in case) 16:35:42 it's the magic mapped tile to se 16:35:56 all other slimes were oozes and jellies 16:36:02 <|amethyst> So you're arguing that Slime entrance shouldn't have monsters that aren't native to lair? 16:36:06 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:09 <|amethyst> oh, just that one 16:36:21 <|amethyst> I think Yak isn't the right thing to compare to anyway 16:36:33 black mamba (02S) | Spd: 18 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-51 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Dam: 2004(medium poison) | cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 457 | Sz: Medium | Int: reptile. 16:36:33 %??Black mamba 16:37:01 the only faster-than-you think i can think of that can be a serious threat (besides spiny frogs) 16:37:27 I don't mind maybe azure jellies walking upstairs from slime since you normally have to choose to let them approach 16:37:44 acid blobs have a good chance at shooting you as you autoexplore though 16:38:14 although truth to be said I've only seen one once as an opck 16:38:29 This is the first time I've seen one in lair too. 16:38:39 but they're kind of.. powerful for lair. 16:39:02 There's a reason people don't take a casual walk into slime early on. 16:39:05 -!- SkaryMonk2 is now known as SkaryMonk 16:40:40 Keskitalo: still here? 16:40:45 !lg * ckiller=acid_blob place=lair~ 16:40:46 No games for * (ckiller=acid_blob place=lair~). 16:41:12 !lg * ckiller=acid_blob lair 16:41:13 195. xaositect the Grappler (L12 TrMo), splashed by an acid blob's acid on Lair:6 on 2014-02-14 11:48:17, with 17737 points after 12798 turns and 1:14:41. 16:41:25 owie 16:41:50 some of these people may have gone into slime or opened the slime entrance with an acid blo 16:41:51 b 16:41:52 not hard to imagine a cat being oneshot by one of those 16:42:12 !lg * ckiller=acid_blob lair -log 16:42:13 195. xaositect, XL12 TrMo, T:12798: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/xaositect/morgue-xaositect-20140214-114817.txt 16:42:27 -!- wheals has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:29 !lg johnnyzero lair ckiller=acid_blod -tv 16:42:29 this guy did 16:42:30 No games for johnnyzero (lair ckiller=acid_blod). 16:42:32 !lg johnnyzero lair ckiller=acid_blob -tv 16:42:32 dpeg: Need to go soon! 16:42:32 2. johnnyzero, XL13 DjAE, T:30788 requested for FooTV (telnet://termcast.develz.org or http://termcast.develz.org). 16:42:51 got a moment for a real quick private msg? 16:42:55 Maybe about 15 minutes 16:43:02 more than enough 16:43:19 DUMBMODE 16:43:58 -!- conted has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:44:19 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:07 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:38 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/FecalFinger/morgue-FecalFinger-20140202-183804.txt got one 16:46:21 might be another victim of MANMODE though 16:47:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:58 blinking on top of the acid blob when already at low hp does sound like manmode to me 16:49:30 it actually was wandering 16:50:07 then he tried to manmode it after hopelessly chugging potions to no avail (spamming oklob shots is a favorite of blobs) 16:50:16 and promptly got oneshotted 16:51:07 There was a boring beetle on the floor though, so that might've opened the glass-vault-of-death 16:51:21 ain't it made out of stone? 16:51:21 i still think it's a bad idea to have acid blobs anywhere in lair 16:52:48 I'm playing a pretty powerful combo and I would've been finished without rCorr and slouch. 16:56:53 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:59:17 -!- Chris7 has quit [] 17:01:40 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 17:03:48 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-2628-gca34044: Mark ?recharging as non-useless for felids (#8155). 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ca34044fbe5f 17:03:50 -!- beef42 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:04:11 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 17:05:31 -!- Stelpa has quit [Changing host] 17:05:33 tenofswords: Grunt already did crystal golems for you, yes? 17:06:57 Bloax: Oh, meant to ask you, did you ever finish that Fe lich player tile? 17:07:03 It looked way better than the current one 17:07:13 I thought that was you anyhow 17:07:18 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Lichkitty3.png 17:07:21 it's a relic of the past 17:07:55 Yeah I guess it could use some more work, but any improvement would be appreciated! 17:08:20 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I'm looking over your patch now 17:08:21 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:28 <|amethyst> gammafunk: One thing I'm unclear on 17:08:29 cool, problems? 17:08:41 <|amethyst> gammafunk: if (!owner || !mons_aligned(mons, owner)) from trigger_grand_avatar 17:09:08 if the owner is no longer with us or the monster isn't aligned to owner? 17:09:16 <|amethyst> gammafunk: which monster? 17:09:23 <|amethyst> gammafunk: when would mons ever not be the owner? 17:09:28 -!- White_Rider has quit [Quit: This user has gone to sleep.] 17:09:37 oh, isn't trigger 17:09:48 yeah trigger for the monster triggering the attack iirc 17:09:51 so it's not the avatar 17:09:58 let me double-check though 17:10:05 <|amethyst> actor* avatar = mons->get_ench(ENCH_GRAND_AVATAR).agent(); 17:10:45 <|amethyst> I don't know the spell very well... does the avatar clone attacks of things other than the summoner? 17:10:52 yes 17:11:01 which is why grunt used enchantments 17:11:04 instead of just a prop 17:11:09 if you look at mon-cast 17:11:13 you see a monster_iterator 17:11:20 anythign in los of caster that's reasonable 17:11:21 gets it 17:11:21 <|amethyst> ah 17:11:26 <|amethyst> still 17:11:27 and hence gets attacks mimiced 17:11:29 <|amethyst> oh 17:11:44 <|amethyst> okay 17:11:46 <|amethyst> I get it now 17:11:52 It's a "grand" avatar, I think 17:12:01 <|amethyst> if the triggerer isn't aligned with the owner, the triggerer stops being one 17:12:07 yes, that's the idea 17:12:17 since that's not nec. covered 17:12:22 by monster::align_avatars 17:12:32 <|amethyst> yeah 17:12:54 well, huh is that fuly covered now though? 17:12:59 <|amethyst> I had been thinking one of those parameters was supposed to be avatar, but now it makes sense 17:13:13 they'll get a call to align_avatars() anyhow, so that check might not be really necessary 17:13:17 but it's a sanity check I guess 17:13:36 align_avatars itself does delete the enchant as necessary fwiw 17:14:07 yeah same exact test in align_avatars that gets called when non-summoner changes align 17:15:33 <|amethyst> also, am I right in thinking that the second parameter of end_grand_avatar isn't currently used? 17:15:41 <|amethyst> I'm only seeing the one call, which uses false 17:16:43 yes, I wasn't sure about removing that since it was based on end_battlesphere, which does need it 17:16:46 but yes 17:17:18 I guess only have an argument if it's actually used 17:17:26 gammafunk: yes, grunt did crystal golem changes, I am just thinking about where they should be used before I land it 17:17:26 tenofswords: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:18:43 <|amethyst> gammafunk: I also don't like all the this-> but you're not the first person to do that so I guess it's not a huge deal 17:19:06 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2629-g3acc414: New species/background recommendations. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 246+ 496-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3acc414d9ce8 17:19:08 oh, yes 17:19:13 sorry, didn't think not to have it 17:20:07 elliptic: nice 17:20:19 I'd support removing this-> fwiw 17:20:42 Not that standards for good C++ are very well-defined 17:20:47 *my standards 17:20:50 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:51 Heh, first few ones are completely different. 17:20:57 I'm sure "the standards" are pretty well defined 17:21:34 Oh, no, the logic is reversed? That makes more sense :) 17:22:11 Medar: yeah, reading the diff is probably a bit confusing 17:22:32 especially since the logic wasn't reversed for the second half 17:22:47 so the idea is players will get just a nice set of reasonable choices for each direction, instead of a massive list? 17:22:51 yeah 17:22:55 sounds nice 17:23:12 and this way we can give people some choices if they want to play a CK without automatically having to recommend CK for some species 17:29:01 I thought the point of CK was to be challenging and not really have anything GOOD at being a CK 17:29:28 but people trying CK might like to know which species give them a better chance 17:34:22 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:26 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:34 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:53 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37:41 -!- tsohg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:37 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 17:41:29 -!- dck has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:34 hrm, can anyone give me a summary of the prevailing opinions on glyph reform? was going to make an email to CRD about that 17:42:08 "give me a day and the @ p W thing will have already ahppened" 17:42:08 one proposal, tengu -> Q, and there is tenofsword's p/human unique glyph move 17:42:18 Brogue 1.7.3 finally won, Brogue 1.7.4 far away --> time to try Sil 17:42:35 I should try brogue 17:42:54 someone else was concerned with eefrets and R 17:43:05 ??R 17:43:06 I don't have a page labeled R in my learndb. 17:43:06 gammafunk: absolutely worth it imo 17:43:25 gammafunk: is there a page for the glyph proposal? 17:43:26 dpeg: Hopefully some inspiration for crawl features 17:43:40 no, perhaps that needs to be done 17:43:46 and link to said page in the email 17:43:55 then people can make edits 17:44:02 just need to get the initial ideas 17:44:09 I think evilmike wanted R changes? 17:44:11 gammafunk: well, I did manage to incorporate axe cleaving almost wholesale from Brogue :) 17:44:21 oh, interesting, didn't realize 17:44:29 gammafunk: is that the email we never got? 17:44:35 no I haven't sent one 17:44:36 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:51 but we've only had irc bikeshed discussions repeatedly 17:45:10 so it seems someone needs to collect ideas and make a call for edits 17:45:22 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:31 ??glyph 17:45:31 glyph ~ glyphs[1/1]: http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs-narrow.html — Generated with the script http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs 17:46:58 dpeg: do you see any problem with using gold for (new) god ability costs? 17:47:22 -!- reaverb has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:21 buppy: for a gold god, no. In general, yes. (There would've to be a good thematic reason to do it, imo.) 17:48:37 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:44 -!- tabstorm has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:48:55 gammafunk: the goal is to make @ less busy? 17:49:31 dpeg: I'm thinking about it for a metalworking/fire god whose powers relate to metal 17:49:36 that's actually tenofsword's goal and part of it; my issue was when adding asterion, he didn't have a good color since H is full 17:49:47 So it's @, H, and also issues with R 17:49:51 probably others 17:50:09 d has lots of problems but not a good solution 17:50:11 I think the idea is we'd collect all the edits desirable and make a big change 17:50:27 there is this: 17:50:28 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:glyphs 17:50:37 But it seems to be addressing some earlier issues 17:51:15 buppy: interesting. There gold would be part of metal, eh? Time to mention Reverse Alchemy once more (Tmut/Con spell proposal, takes gold and MP and produces damage (energy)). 17:51:31 -!- reaverb has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:32 buppy: forge dwarve god? 17:51:42 *dwarf 17:51:55 ??forge_dwarf 17:51:56 I don't have a page labeled forge_dwarf in my learndb. 17:52:15 the only thing I remember is that they had red beards 17:53:37 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:02 ergonomically speaking, the monster -> glyph/color mapping is very ineffective... some letters are brimmingly full, and others like b,u,z,Z so sparse. (Thank god for restricted console palette, it's a brake on new monster creation :) 17:56:31 yeah u has problems with ugly things needing all those colors, z/Z are special cases because of zombies 17:56:38 b is I guess for butterfly colors? 17:57:04 ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 129-166 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 3004(rot), 30 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, 04eats corpses, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 1787 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal. 17:57:04 %??ghoul 17:59:02 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 18:03:01 -!- dtsund has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:32 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:51 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:59 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:10 -!- sstrickl has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:13 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:51 03MarvinPA02 07[summon_spells] * 0.14-a0-2630-g7bb2d9c: Add effects of spellpower to some summon spell descriptions 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7bb2d9cc7836 18:16:22 need to come up with _something_ more for very ugly things to benefit the spell 18:17:25 wonderful commit 18:18:12 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:56 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:20:42 I'm getting very confused by the keymap code; not sure if it's a bug. When I annotate a level "!dangerous", it replaces the letters with the keymap'd keys, and when I try to use an innate ability 'b' it says I cannot because `b` is keymap'd to `i`. 18:21:36 Is it that I should be avoiding the `default(k)` maps altogethor? Is targetting&world-map sufficient to change the movement controls? 18:24:59 -!- Hailley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:53 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:00 -!- Walker_Z is now known as WalkerBoh 18:27:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:27:21 -!- pelotron has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:29:21 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:56 MarvinPA: Should I avoid default(k) maps? Are they not necessary for changing the directional keys? 18:30:13 <|amethyst> xFleury: yes, you shouldn't usually use default(k) maps 18:30:15 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:16 MarvinPA: When I annotate a level "!dangerous", it replaces the letters with the keymap'd keys, and when I try to use an innate ability 'b' it says I cannot because `b` is keymap'd to `i`. 18:31:27 <|amethyst> usually you'd use a keybinding, not a keymap 18:31:45 <|amethyst> if you want to make a key run a different command 18:32:46 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:11 hmm i got disconnected from freenode and my client didn't notice somehow, how annoying 18:33:14 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:18 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 18:33:22 <|amethyst> you can do e.g. bindkey = [b] CMD_DISPLAY_INVENTORY or bindkey = [i] CMD_MOVE_DOWN_LEFT bindkey = [i] CMD_TARGET_DOWN_LEFT (you can have both) 18:33:54 <|amethyst> see docs/keybind.txt for more information, though some of the default bindings listed there may be out-of-date 18:34:16 <|amethyst> oh, also CMD_MAP_MOVE_DOWN_LEFT 18:34:19 -!- daek_ is now known as Daekdroom 18:34:22 also that summon desc thing is probably incomplete, i just did the ones that came to mind immediately 18:35:15 i guess the "default" is "power increases duration" maybe and it's just worth mentioning spells where something else is the case 18:36:25 MarvinPA: is it possible for summon greater demon to *not* turn hostile? 18:36:50 |amethyst: It looks like default(k) is the only one of the three keymap options that apply to directional movements of the character 18:36:59 2s don't, how did i word it 18:37:10 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:37:14 MarvinPA: oh, interesting 18:37:29 i guess "the strongest demons *will* eventually etc" would be more accurate maybe 18:37:39 MarvinPA: yeah, that's what I meant 18:37:39 |amethyst: So the only way to remap the directional keys without breaking things elsewhere is to set keybindings in (presumably) the RC? 18:37:51 not that its really a big issue 18:38:26 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:38:29 xFleury: you should be able to use a macro for regular movement 18:39:05 <|amethyst> xFleury: keymapping is in general for "my keyboard layout is ugh, I want to change it" 18:39:28 but yeah bindkey sounds more reasonable 18:39:31 |amethyst: That's sorta my situation; I hate vi-keys, yet have no numpad. 18:39:46 MarvinPA: hydra is one where it doesn't increase duration 18:40:00 <|amethyst> xFleury: but you don't want to change the keyboard layout to do that 18:40:02 aha yeah, headcount 18:40:14 <|amethyst> xFleury: because as you noted, you don't want pressing i to give the b key 18:40:24 <|amethyst> xFleury: you only want to change what command it runs 18:40:32 <|amethyst> xFleury: which is what macros and bindkey are for 18:41:02 <|amethyst> perhaps there should be an in-game way of entering keybindings too 18:41:02 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:13 <|amethyst> hm... but how to select the command then 18:41:23 and I wonder if getting two lesser dragons is actually a benefit with the cap 18:41:28 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:56 -!- Bloax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:09 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:34 elliptic: macro(m) doesn't seem to work with Shift-X though 18:42:57 xFleury: and an (x) keymap doesn't work either? 18:43:03 for shift-X 18:43:14 elliptic: Well, it does if I use all three keymaps 18:43:17 k,x,t 18:43:26 with a macro, I don't see three options 18:43:34 I was suggestiong x + t + macro, with no k keymap 18:43:46 (but really bindkey is better) 18:44:38 since the k keymap is what is causing the trouble with annotating and writing notes and such, I believe 18:44:44 -!- G-Flex has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.] 18:44:49 x+t+macro, where macro = some reserved name? I don't know what "macro" means in this context 18:45:02 huh? 18:45:15 <|amethyst> (m)acro, (M)acro raw, keymap [(k) default, (x) level-map, (t)argeting, (c)onfirm, m(e)nu], (s)ave? 18:45:20 <|amethyst> it means press m there 18:45:35 oh I get it now 18:45:45 N78291: easy solution to that: fire dragon, fire dragon, ice dragon chimera 18:46:07 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:13 two-headed fire dragon 18:46:23 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:46:27 gidhra 18:46:30 however that's spelled 18:46:42 summon nonbase draconian 18:47:10 dracotaur for speed 18:47:42 the royal dragon form 18:48:10 appropriate since you can get GDA from trj already 18:48:37 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:49:30 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:26 re: dig removal. would it make any sense to convert the adjacent rock walls next to the newly dig tunnel to stone? 18:51:53 that is, the spell is so powerful it hardens the adjacent walls so you can't dig infinitely 18:51:53 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:32 talking about only for the spell version. obviously the wand is perfectly calibrated to not overheat/harden the walls 18:52:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:43 that doesn't sound unnecessarily complex at all 18:53:02 not sure if that would adequately address the underlying problem 18:53:33 if we really want there to be a spell that has limited digging and a wand that has more, we should just add dirt walls 18:53:36 would it be hard to make autofight recognize that glass is solid? 18:54:26 aside from dig + lrd, why would you want to turn walls to stone? 18:54:55 <|amethyst> N78291: johnstein intends it as a downside 18:55:10 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:55:24 Eronarn: apologies for asking, but was your "unnecessarily complex" comment sincere or hyperbolic? I'm feeling pretty burnt out at the end of a crummy week of work :p 18:57:16 alternative to dirt walls is making more walls stone 18:57:35 e.g. elf walls, snakepit walls 18:59:05 |amethyst: yea exactly. it would address the issue of infinite digging. but I'm not smart enough (dev-wise) to know if it's even a smart solution/approach 18:59:37 it would "partially" address the issue of infinite digging 19:00:25 johnstein: you're making the spell do two things: dig, and change rock walls to stone. that alone adds extra balance and code complexity 19:00:25 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:34 agreed 19:01:14 probably it wouldn't interact well with vaults that require digging 19:01:16 I'm not good enough at crawl dev to know how complex that would be and whether it would make it a better option. 19:02:09 having an extra dig tier also adds complexity but gives more control because it's only relevant where it's actually used 19:02:20 for example, all vaults with rock would just stay that way 19:02:28 N78291: those vaults are optionsl, right? so maybe some of them would require a wand (like the current situation does now) 19:02:44 <|amethyst> so what's the point in the spell then? 19:02:47 johnstein: and if you try to dig them and fail with the spell? 19:02:54 now you need shatter to try again 19:03:03 (well, lrd, but still) 19:03:27 yea. sounds like you might not want to use the spell and prefer the wand 19:03:32 adding another wall type seems like massive overkill to try to preserve a single spell 19:03:50 minmay: i'm actually not in favor of it, just offering a contrast 19:03:57 it's an interesting issue 19:05:29 imo if we want people going through some but not too much wall, change passwall to be a duration effect that lets you be a nome 19:06:45 -!- hayuto has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:46 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:16 -!- gnum has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:33 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:19:48 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:24 -!- halv has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:25 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:33 -!- robotcentaur has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:45 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:32:24 -!- ldf has quit [Quit: ldf] 19:34:29 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:32 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:04 !vault evilmike_wizard_prison 19:37:04 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large_themed.des;hb=HEAD#l884 19:37:16 got that on a FeCK and was very frustrated 19:37:31 since I couldn't dig out the silence ghost 19:37:48 had an orb card but apparently I needed to stand one tile back from the grate 19:38:01 the orb hit the rock wall on the side instead 19:39:59 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:28 -!- HellTiger has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:45 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 19:41:45 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 19:41:49 -!- Blazinghand|Work has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:45 -!- magicpoints0 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:00 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:59 -!- soundlust|2 is now known as soundlust 20:00:23 How often do people learn the dig spell? It doesn't seem "too good" to me just judging by how often it's used (personally I very rarely learn it) 20:01:00 I am under the impression the only use for the dig spell was felids? 20:01:08 (now irrelevant since last night's commit) 20:03:04 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 20:03:34 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:57 It was used somewhat I'd say, I don't think enough to justify its existance though 20:06:57 everyone still had a /digging 20:07:09 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:48 Even if wands of digging didn't exist I don't think the spell would be too good. Digging is good but it's hardly too good for a lvl 4 dual school spell 20:07:58 dig wasn't removed because it was too good, but because spells that are used outside of combat don't work well 20:08:07 and also because it was incredibly boring (duplicates a wand) 20:11:27 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:11:53 -!- _fred has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:14:31 -!- hurdos has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:11 also it's kind of dumb for speedruns 20:17:35 -!- magicpoints has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:34 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 20:21:31 would it be desirable for summon hydra to always place the hydras as close to you as it can? 20:22:21 better to use the generic summon placement rather than special-casing something for it, IMO 20:22:38 -!- magicpoints has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:25 yeah perhaps a slight duration increase if anything, although it may not need even that 20:23:50 well I've only used it a couple of times but I've found it pretty frustrating when they appear at basically the edge of your LoS or even out of it entirely 20:24:23 wait, what? how are summons appearing at the edge of your LoS 20:24:48 I thought they only ever appeared within radius 2 of you, did that change? 20:25:10 they can definitely appear out of los 20:25:29 I just summoned a hound four spaces away 20:25:32 -!- Zermako has quit [Quit: good night and good luck to all!] 20:25:35 I summoned three just now 20:25:43 one appeared four tiles away 20:25:48 another one five 20:26:38 I mean placement being fuzzy like that doesn't hurt the rest the way it hurts hydras since they last a lot more 20:26:44 I don't see a commit changing this intentionally... so a bug? or am I missing something 20:27:02 It does sound like a bug. 20:27:10 dck: well it benefits them in the opposite way 20:27:44 Sounds like possibly dracoomega's summon changes? 20:28:48 the autofoe change? I'm pretty sure it predates that 20:28:57 hrm, changes to foe shouldn't affect that, yeah 20:29:32 It's been like this for a good while now 20:30:26 N78291: do you mean when they appear away from you close to something you'd want them to attack? 20:30:56 yes 20:31:21 <|amethyst> 0.13 seems fine 20:31:29 <|amethyst> they also appear far away when nothing's around 20:31:47 <|amethyst> I haven't investigated fully, but this commit may be relevant 20:31:55 <|amethyst> %git 48157817a 20:31:56 07kilobyte02 * 0.14-a0-1169-g4815781: Simplify find_newmons_square(), make it not crash. 10(3 months ago, 2 files, 18+ 27-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48157817a305 20:33:19 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:12 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 20:37:10 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:30 yeah, seems to be that commit 20:38:17 oh good so i was right, it was a recent thing 20:38:36 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:50 3 months before anyone noticing counts as recent? 20:39:09 um im sure most people dont really use summons very often 20:39:13 yes 20:39:24 also 3 months is recent to me! 20:39:35 Well, noticing and realizing it's a bug are different things. 20:39:41 And reporting a bug is yet an another. 20:39:57 well I suspected placing wolves out of los wasn't normal. 20:40:14 but summons are weird in general so why not 20:40:36 !messages 20:40:36 No messages for TZer0. 20:40:40 cast howl on a monster 20:40:52 yeah, understandable that nobody would realize this wasn't an intentional change given how much stuff has been going on with summons 20:40:57 fr: spirit howl for players 20:41:55 it was available from chimeras for a while 20:42:18 the fun part is the player got howled from his friendly chimera regardless 20:42:19 it still isn't clear to me why this commit is causing problems though 20:46:05 -!- Weeksy has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:45 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Quit: Saindo] 20:51:03 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 20:52:04 oh 20:52:59 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:00 so I guess the problem is that create_monster() is doing mg.pos = find_newmons_square(montype, mg.pos); twice 20:53:39 previously it was only doing it twice when a god was involved 20:54:35 or maybe not even doing that because of the bug 20:56:03 hm, spectral orcs has a summon cap of 3 but I'm surrounded by 11 of them 20:56:03 I don't understand what the intended behavior is when a god is involved well enough to know what to do there 20:56:26 but I think just removing the else there should solve the problem at hand 20:56:43 maybe removing the top mg.pos = ... line is better though 20:56:56 <|amethyst> but the in_bounds check 20:57:19 hm, yeah 20:57:38 well, that check could be moved down, right? 20:58:02 03MarvinPA02 07* 0.14-a0-2630-g9bfa2c6: Adjust summon caps on demonic horde and summon butterflies 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9bfa2c6131b8 20:58:31 like, remove the top mg.pos = ... and move the in_bounds check to the end of the if block 20:58:49 <|amethyst> elliptic: hm 20:58:51 <|amethyst> elliptic: mostly 20:59:29 <|amethyst> the difference would be whether you get a puff of smoke when there are squares available but all would anger your god 20:59:50 <|amethyst> so maybe move it inside the else 21:00:31 hm, yeah 21:00:51 <|amethyst> though honestly I'm not sure what the problem would be with always giving the puff of smoke 21:02:24 is this view.h comment still valid? // beware, flash_view is broken for USE_TILE_LOCAL 21:02:54 yeah, always giving the puff of smoke might be good anyway 21:04:13 I'm just going to preserve the current messaging for now though 21:04:33 <|amethyst> meaning putting it in the else? 21:04:41 <|amethyst> hm 21:04:57 <|amethyst> I guess fully replicating the current messaging would require trying twice :) 21:04:58 yeah 21:05:39 <|amethyst> since putting it in the else would mean a difference in what happens when you get god-summoned monsters with no valid spots 21:05:51 <|amethyst> actually 21:06:17 <|amethyst> the fix that most preserves the current behaviour would be to still call it twice, just don't set mg.pos the first time 21:07:04 <|amethyst> since that's the real problem, that the second placement's radius starts at the first placement rather than the player 21:07:38 I don't understand how this is different from just calling it once and checking in_bounds at the end of the if block 21:07:53 oh 21:07:55 I see 21:08:07 <|amethyst> elliptic: because the two different calls in the god case aren't the same 21:08:15 meh, how about we just always have a puff of smoke 21:08:20 <|amethyst> yeah :) 21:08:28 I don't think that calling it twice just to get a slightly different message in the god case is worth it 21:08:41 and I'm not sure why we don't want the puff of smoke anyway 21:08:56 <|amethyst> I think that was just to replicate the old behaviour 21:09:23 <|amethyst> *maybe* there's some place where the message would be distracting though 21:09:55 elliptic: maybe if xom tries to summon a bunch of allies 21:10:03 <|amethyst> hm 21:10:25 <|amethyst> or casting a multi-summon spell in tight spaces 21:11:25 or god wrath 21:11:34 <|amethyst> oh, right 21:11:40 <|amethyst> the old behaviour was only for gods 21:12:05 <|amethyst> and that commit removed the smoke for the non-god case 21:12:44 oh, I see 21:13:21 so just remove the else and move the in_bounds check inside the god case? 21:14:10 -!- Weeksy has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:15:28 I like how I pull up tvs to try and see how the second v:$ change works out and everybody just fights the ambush without seeing the outside corridor, including an ogre and a felid 21:15:46 though I'm still not getting the puff of smoke in the player case after I do that, hm 21:15:58 maybe I don't understand exactly how you ever get the puff of smoke 21:16:15 <|amethyst> hm 21:16:34 <|amethyst> how are you creating it? 21:16:45 just by casting a summon spell 21:17:04 <|amethyst> ohh 21:17:11 (it just gives "Nothing appears to happen.") 21:17:13 <|amethyst> never mind me 21:17:26 <|amethyst> I missed the you.see_cell(mg.pos) 21:17:52 <|amethyst> so puff of smoke wouldn't happen on no-space, but only a failure to place 21:18:02 <|amethyst> when mons_place fails I mean 21:18:03 oh, right 21:18:26 <|amethyst> so how about 21:18:27 so if it fails the in_bounds check then it wasn't going to get a puff of smoke regardless 21:18:32 <|amethyst> yeah 21:18:42 <|amethyst> move the if (!summd) thing inside the in_bounds 21:18:44 so that means the check doesn't really matter I think? 21:18:46 <|amethyst> and remove the early return 21:18:54 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:19 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:21 <|amethyst> though I guess moving it inside isn't strictly necessary 21:20:41 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:00 so I guess I don't see what is wrong with just removing the top mg.pos = ... and the in_bounds check 21:21:03 and not doing anything else 21:21:05 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:11 <|amethyst> yeah, that's fine 21:21:25 <|amethyst> That's why I said "I guess moving it inside isn't strictly necessary" 21:21:36 <|amethyst> that would really be more for clarity than anything else 21:22:13 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:22:38 <|amethyst> (alternatively, add a comment on the puff of smoke if) 21:28:41 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2631-g351238a: Fix summon placement. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=351238acdfba 21:28:41 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2632-gd2f732a: Clarify puff of smoke code. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d2f732a1e192 21:32:10 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:47 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:35:50 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:40 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2632-gd2f732a (34) 21:55:58 so I was going to give wucad some different monks and some shadow creatures, except that monstrous demonspawn makes a band 21:56:10 except that grey draconian monk doesn't make a band 21:56:22 why does sanity keep slipping out of my grasp 21:56:42 (Welcome to Crawl development; check your sanity at the door, please.) 21:58:41 -!- tenofswords has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:34 -!- noppa354 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:01:09 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:50 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 22:03:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:45 -!- jeffro_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:23 -!- Ququman has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:06 -!- jeffro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:52 -!- Sonata has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:36 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:11:19 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:04 -!- alefury has quit [] 22:14:57 Hopefully the warmonger demonspawn ghosts also make grand avatar ghosts 22:16:31 -!- Hailley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:59 -!- Guest62734 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:22:09 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:03 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:14 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:52 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:17 -!- fearitself has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:47:07 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:16 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:02 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:17 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:29 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00:20 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:40 Has anyone gotten the chance to look at #8152? (vuln -> purge magic) 23:09:54 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 23:10:17 -!- MP2E has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:10:39 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:18:43 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:40 !bug 8152 23:21:41 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8152 23:23:40 technical issue with the patch: you probably want to rebase this so its one commit 23:24:04 you could have two: one to rename, one to change weights 23:24:17 but the 3rd commit is just "more renames", which should be squashed 23:24:32 (You squash the commit like a bug!!!) 23:24:55 You rebase the commit! The commit is devoured by a tear in reality! 23:25:09 !abyss gammafunk 23:25:09 dck casts a spell. gammafunk is devoured by a tear in reality! 23:25:14 !frenzy dck 23:25:19 !discord dck 23:25:20 dck flies into a frenzy! 23:25:30 * dck flies into an insane frenzy! 23:25:36 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 23:25:36 !berserk dck 23:26:01 * dck looks angrier for a moment. 23:26:05 gammafunk: thank you 23:26:20 I don't know some of these details 23:27:45 nonethousand: And you're ok with your real name in the patch? 23:27:52 yeah no problem with that 23:28:00 cool, just checking since some aren't aware 23:28:09 I appreciate it 23:28:49 * nonethousand looks up git rebasing 23:29:31 git rebase -i HEAD~4 is something like the command you'll run, but yeah read up about it 23:29:37 as it's not very untuitive 23:30:48 although I should ask if there's an easier command to just squash some commits 23:31:06 yeah I'd be interested in knowing that 23:31:32 -!- Arkaniad has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:31:36 There isn't, AFAIK. 23:31:38 since I haven't done much patching I made small commits and tested them not thinking about the resulting patch file 23:31:45 *end result 23:32:25 nonethousand: yeah, and that's ok; you rebase when you're basically done to clean them up 23:32:42 ah I see 23:33:39 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-2632-gd2f732a (34) 23:34:05 it's only awkward if say you have a "rename" commit, "change weight" commit, "another rename" commit, and then you want to squas the first and third 23:34:10 into one commit 23:34:37 Well, that's still reasonably easy; it's if you get conflicts that it gets awkward. 23:34:38 only way I know how to fix is to make a branch with the first, cherry-pick the third, squash, then cherry pick the second 23:34:46 o_O? 23:34:53 Grunt: is what I described how you also handle that scenario? 23:34:54 You *can* reorder the lines in git rebase -i, you know. 23:34:58 ah 23:34:59 hahah 23:35:12 it's only happend to me like 2-3 times! 23:35:18 but thanks for telling me that 23:36:08 nonethousand: so yeah, rebase -i can handle it in one fell swoop 23:36:14 The More You Know 23:36:50 gammafunk: okay, that's great. I'm going to read some more documentation and then try again 23:36:51 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:09 thanks for helping me! 23:37:32 nonethousand: no prob, I'm doing a build of it and will report in mantis if I see any probs 23:40:12 -!- N78291 has quit [Quit: null] 23:42:32 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:30 -!- Guest62734 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:02 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:46 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:56:45 nonethousand: Only one small issue found with a function in item_use.cc that should be renamed, otherwise looks good 23:57:23 it's in the mantis but the function is 23:57:27 !function _vulnerability_scroll 23:57:29 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc;hb=HEAD#l2795 23:58:11 ah oops, thank you 23:59:02 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle]