00:02:33 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:41 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6 (34) 00:05:49 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6 (34) 00:17:16 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:08 -!- Yermak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:22:19 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25:41 -!- mamgar has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:48 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:06 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:34:35 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:37:02 !tell |amethyst I've uploaded a patch in mantis 0008124 based on our discussion. It's been well tested and should handle all the attitude change cases, but let me know if it's missing something. 00:37:02 gammafunk: OK, I'll let |amethyst know. 00:44:07 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:38 -!- sd1989 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:48:59 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:54 -!- Krakhan has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:53:20 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [] 00:55:01 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:01 -!- WalkerBoh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:48 -!- Nilsbloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:54 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:05 any cscope users around? 01:08:45 -!- Escalator has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:47 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:33 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:12:49 -!- Whistling_Beard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:36 -!- jeffro- has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:18:59 -!- metasyntactic is now known as kunwon1 01:19:36 -!- Eracar has quit [] 01:20:20 -!- Ragnor has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:58 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:30:46 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:22 ah I see what was wrong. bad cscope.out db 01:38:31 due to bad cscope.files 01:38:54 baleet the cscope.file file and cscope -R -b fixed it 01:38:58 this is nice stuff 01:42:41 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43:29 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:43:42 -!- Blazinghand has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:27 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 01:55:23 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:29 -!- pelotr0n has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:59:34 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:03:21 -!- absolute1o is now known as absolutego 02:05:08 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:43 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:08:40 -!- jj666 is now known as jj__ 02:09:58 -!- simmarine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:03 -!- djanatyn1 has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:12:59 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:14:43 -!- jameyd has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:14:43 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:43 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:43 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:45 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:46 -!- SamB has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:11 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:36 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:08 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:15 Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6 (34) 02:18:11 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:05 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:08 -!- SamB has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:40 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:30 !tell wheals P on CBRO main page points to trunk and the inotify script is running again. ty for the heads up 02:22:30 johnstein: OK, I'll let wheals know. 02:22:54 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:41 -!- tksquared has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:50 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:25 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:25:36 -!- DeathrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:27:43 -!- fearitself has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:31:11 -!- Sorbius has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:56 -!- ToastyP has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:59 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:38:28 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:16 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 02:46:23 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:28 -!- honeybadger has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:47:50 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: g'doug!] 02:52:05 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba 02:52:09 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:56:15 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:56:15 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:15 -!- Cheibriados has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:28 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 02:57:30 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 03:01:08 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:03:59 -!- mongor has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:54 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:59 -!- Quashie has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:24 -!- UselessOne has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12:16 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12:18 -!- jj__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:13:47 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:14 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:16 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:21:58 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:22 -!- mongor has quit [Quit: mongor] 03:23:08 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:23:09 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:26 -!- Whistling_Beard has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27:31 -!- magicpoints has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:48 -!- ontoclasm has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:29:52 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:13 -!- NilsBloodaxe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:31:21 -!- UselessOne has quit [Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)] 03:31:22 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:20 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:07 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:47 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 03:40:12 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:28 -!- kait_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:02 -!- master_j has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:06:28 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:39 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:15 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:19:16 -!- alefury|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:23 -!- Klarki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:25:10 -!- alefury|2 has quit [] 04:34:30 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:48:44 Prevent chaos champions from generating with GC/GSCs. by Sage 04:51:26 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:52:13 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:45 -!- BlackrayJack has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:13:14 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:52 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:22 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:45 -!- PepeRC2 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:53:29 -!- ivan`` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:41 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:32 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:09:37 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:14:09 -!- Daekdroom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:19 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:47 -!- PsyMar has quit [Quit: Stop, hammer time, collaborate, and listen. In the name of love.] 06:15:58 -!- conted has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:16:42 -!- SkaryMonk2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21:26 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:00 -!- herself2 is now known as herself 06:26:05 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:25 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:14 -!- eith|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:31:31 -!- Akien has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:33:42 -!- radinms has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:46:51 -!- KurzedMetal1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:48:30 -!- roxton has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:31 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:57 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 06:51:27 -!- MP2E has quit [Quit: night] 06:52:57 -!- soundlust has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:16 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:41 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:22 -!- wheals has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:08:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:58 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:39 -!- soundlust|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:13:54 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:46 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 07:27:46 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:42 -!- scummos__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:49:34 -!- Akien has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:53:24 -!- Elsi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:58:14 -!- CKyle has quit [Quit: CKyle] 08:03:54 Space missing in xv by ldf 08:14:46 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:52 -!- SkaryMonk2 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:01 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:15:54 -!- FractalFive has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:16:06 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:17:49 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 08:21:33 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:20 -!- cr0ne has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:31:11 -!- LexAckson has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:19 -!- Bloax has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:46 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:41 -!- CKyle has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:51 -!- zxc232 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:08:46 -!- absolutego has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:09:14 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:15:43 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 09:16:46 -!- nixor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:15 -!- pelotron_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:21:01 -!- tkappleton2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:33:20 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:07 -!- ontoclasm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:09 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:41:50 -!- floatboth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:33 -!- RZX has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:43:49 -!- LexAckson_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:55 -!- LexAckson has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:32 -!- Sgun has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:55:46 -!- arb has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:48 -!- SkaryMonk2 has left ##crawl-dev 10:07:47 -!- Vizer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:12:22 -!- wheals has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:00 -!- TheMattybee has quit [Quit: <@katagi> *draws a fridge rotom barfing pokemon guts everywhere* *asks when the next harry potter movie is coming out*] 10:15:02 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:36 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:24 -!- xnavy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:24:03 -!- arb has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 10:27:38 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:36:03 -!- Quazifuji_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:37:17 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:45:49 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:49:08 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:46 -!- PleasingFungus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:50:31 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:58 !messages 10:55:58 No messages for TZer0. 10:58:38 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:01 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:35 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:47 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:03 MarvinPA: I don't suppose you're around? 11:02:14 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:11 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:03:20 -!- Fhqwhgads__ is now known as Fhqwhgads_ 11:04:51 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:07:47 03Grunt02 07* 0.14-a0-2605-g5f9f4c6: Fix some typos in monster energy descriptions (#8150). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5f9f4c61098c 11:07:49 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:07:51 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-2604-g6f603d6 (34) 11:08:36 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:20 DracoOmega: hi, vaguely 11:12:38 probably going to disappear and eat in a bit 11:12:53 MarvinPA: I played around with the new summon spells a bit last night and had some thoughts about a few potential changes that I wanted to run past you 11:12:53 -!- gnum has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:13:17 (That I could code myself, but wanted your opinion on) 11:14:22 sure 11:14:24 Summon Forest really does feel like it lasts way too briefly - not nearly enough to even appreciate the effect - but it definitely kills things quite well at the moment. I was thinking that possibly the duration could be extended, but dryads themselves nerfed a fair bit (they were intended to threaten late midgame players, after all, and are probably too strong versus monsters in general) 11:14:45 Since I think it might be more fun to see the vines going around doing more work, but definitely it can't be much logner at current power 11:14:54 -!- scummos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:15:09 Hydra duration or less? 11:15:20 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:20 (Also, there's this odd thing where the terrain change is centered on a random spot in LoS meaning that sometimes the forest appears largely out of sight, and I think that's kind of strange 11:16:08 -!- Glowie has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:10 hmm, it actually felt pretty good to me even with the short duration 11:17:10 Presumably the reason you can't use it in really confined spaces is to keep from trapping monsters in forest corridors, but I think it could still be centered upon YOU and just have that same limitation 11:17:19 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:26 I don't mean that it isn't strong! It just felt unpleasantly fleeting? 11:17:40 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:57 Also, guardian golem's attack is so uselessly pathetic (base damage 2?) that I wondered if it's even worth it keeping it at all? 11:18:08 Since the fact that it CAN hit things might confuse people into thinking this would ever accomplish anything 11:20:02 (And also it feels too fragile. I coded the auto-bond thing, but for something that exists primarily as a shield, it dies surprisingly quickly) 11:20:17 Currently spellpower does nothing. It seems like it might make sense if spellpower increased its hp? 11:21:14 -!- Bloax has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:21:58 that sounds good yeah 11:22:22 What do you think of giving lightning spire a little more range in where you can place it? 11:22:25 Instead of melee range only? 11:22:33 Like, still short, but a touch more flexibility 11:22:50 hmm i never really found myself really wanting to place it further away 11:23:38 could do range 2 perhaps 11:24:30 -!- floatboth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:49 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:12 and longer forest probably is good really, i don't think forest should be in the starting book so having it be flashy/noticeable is good 11:25:40 And also less water, of course :P 11:25:47 yeah 11:25:49 At high power, it's like as much water as Swamp or more 11:26:19 One vague downside to the golem getting more hp with power is that makes it explode less, and sometimes the explosion seems like one of the more useful things it does. But maybe not if it's shielding allies and then blows up ON them 11:26:48 -!- rossi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 11:27:07 (Also, I think I ought to change lightning spire duration to use aut instead of abjuration degree, since there's a giant time difference between 1 and 2 there, so there's less fine-grained control. It tends to vanish really quickly on a bad roll or otherwise stay around way longer) 11:27:38 yeah, i don't have much of a useful opinion on golem since i never even got it to explode in my game (and amnesia'd it now, i'd have to start a new game to try it again :P) 11:27:44 For that matter, I've wondered why golem is summoning/hexes instead of summoning/charms when it's explicitly something protective. Maybe to make it less accessible to a standard character build? 11:27:58 (Or maybe for the inner flame? :P) 11:29:46 (Or just pure summoning really, I guess) 11:30:25 And on the topic of experimental summons, I had another recent idea of my own based on a change I had considered making to one existing monster. 11:30:53 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:57 I'd thought about giving great orbs of eyes strip resistance (and making it so that they tended to apply this first, before launching other hexes) (and probably replacing paralysis with petrification at that point), and I thought that in this incarnation, a higher level summon/hexes spell that called a single one of those might be interesting. Could be a support to help land hexes of your own or a 11:31:57 general disabler while not being a powerhouse to throw at killing things directly in the conventional way. 11:33:11 doctordoom (L27 DsCj) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1419: bogus mc (no monster data): invalid monster_type 1000 (1000) (Pan) 11:34:48 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:39:56 I thought maybe I could toss it in there (though I suppose it's also harder to test higher level off-school stuff all in the same game, but still) 11:42:39 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:02 -!- tsohg has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:07 Anyway, I myself need to take off for a while, but later today I'll probably try coding up some of these tweaks 11:46:52 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 11:46:54 -!- DracoOmega has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:40 -!- ystael has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:51:19 I found ghe golem spell to not be terrifically useful aside from being another meat shield that occassionaly exploded in a useful way 11:51:40 It sort of caused serial explosions whne I fought the mintaur, at least 11:52:00 s/whne I fought the mintaur/when I fought the minotaur/ 11:53:26 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:29 -!- minmay has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:21 -!- Fhqwhgads_ has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:57:45 -!- Gobbo is now known as GoblinBomb 11:58:51 -!- Akien has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:19 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:31 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:43 -!- BigBluFrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:08:50 -!- SwissStopwatch has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:57 -!- Akien has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:20 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:52 -!- Ququman has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:57 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:45 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:21 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:26 -!- MaxFrost has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:24:42 -!- Vizer_ has quit [Quit: bye] 12:29:35 -!- alefury|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:08 -!- Quazifuji_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:16 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 12:40:59 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:46 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:43 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:49 -!- HellTiger_NB has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:54:14 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:18 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:06 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:07 -!- gammafunk has left ##crawl-dev 13:12:42 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:58 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32:36 -!- smajdalf has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:33:46 -!- Bloaxzorro has joined ##crawl-dev 13:33:46 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:50 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:51 -!- Bloaxzorro has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:50 -!- Nethris has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:41:29 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:15 -!- scummos__ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:48:56 elliptic: anyhow, they have an M_VIGILANT flag that prevents their foe memory from naturally decreasing, but that out-of-los check will cause them to lose the player as foe eventually even if play stealth is poor 13:49:20 I'm just not sure if making them always aware of the player location (remove that check for them) would be a good idea 13:49:35 my question is, under what conditions should they forget the player 13:49:35 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:18 yeah, they should still forget about stealthy players sometimes... maybe the numbers in that check should just be changed for monsters with M_VIGILANT 13:50:19 we could make it much more infrequent that they fail that out-of-los check; they are the only monster currently with M_VIGILANT,so they could get a big boost 13:50:36 normals stealth is 120 I think 13:50:41 ??stealth 13:50:41 stealth[1/6]: Your character's ability to sneak around undetected. Base stealth is 3*dex + spf*SK_STEALTH, then modified as in {modified_stealth}. spf is based on the species, ranging from 9 to 21. See [2] to determine stealth values; [3] for the @ adverbs; and [4] for what the numbers mean. 13:50:47 ??stealth[3 13:50:47 stealth[3/6]: @ values are: Extremely unstealthy <10, Very unstealthy <30, unstealthy <60, fairly <90, normal <120, quite <160, very <220, extremely <300, extraordinarily <400, incredibly <520, uncannily >=520 13:51:03 -!- klarki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:51:45 ohh, I was confused because of this check for M_VIGILANT in check_awaken 13:52:05 that made me think that they hadn't actually lost me as a target, because they always noticed me instantly and with no message 13:52:10 why does that thing even exist 13:52:57 M_VIGILANT? 13:53:17 it's probably not doing its intended purpose given that stealth roll 13:53:27 mon-behv.cc:738 13:53:28 well, specifically the part of it in check_awaken 13:53:30 is what I'm referring to 13:53:33 right 13:54:11 Yeah, with foe memory naturally decreasing 13:54:16 you could argue that is unecessary 13:55:49 -!- ProzacElf has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:57:06 -!- DracoOmega has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:09 oh, you're saying why does the M_VIGILANT reference in check_awaken exist 13:57:19 What's this about M_VIGILANT? 13:57:21 maybe remove the check_awaken bit and divide the chance of it forgetting about you in mon-behv.cc by 2 or 3 13:57:44 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:57:53 DracoOmega: I spent a while experimenting with curse skulls with ash detection to see what they were actually doing 13:58:44 Well, the check_awaken thing was because when curse skulls were stationary, they were always 'awake'. But non-stationary monsters don't have that property and I didn't want to nerf them in that regard (since it tended to make getting close to them much easier than it used to be) 13:58:45 DracoOmega: and I got quite confused by how they would start wandering around fairly frequently, but still instantly notice me when I entered their sight again 13:59:22 I don't see any reason to make stealth bad against them 13:59:31 Well, it's no worse than it always was 13:59:39 DracoOmega: mon-behv.cc:738 is probably making them wander like this 13:59:47 Before 0.13 13:59:56 yes, stealth will help you get closer to them... that is what stealth is supposed to do 14:00:20 the M_VIGILANT flag makes their foe memory not naturally decrease, but with that mon-behv.cc:738 roll they're going to forget the player pretty often anyhow 14:00:24 No, I mean that before 0.13 they were always aware of you in los no matter what 14:00:30 DracoOmega: uh, no 14:00:36 I stabbed plenty of them 14:00:37 Since that is a property stationary monsters had 14:00:47 Really? 14:00:52 Is this just a display thing then? 14:01:05 Because they would never display any indication of ever being unaware 14:01:20 So I was just trying to replicate the old behavior 14:01:21 sure they did, at least in console 14:01:43 P oklob plant (unaware) 14:01:46 8 Roxanne (unaware) 14:01:52 ...maybe it's a tiles thing? 14:02:00 I will have a look 14:02:13 DracoOmega: any thoughts on the wandering aspect? 14:02:16 In any case, the only reason I did that was to try and not lose the old behavior when also adding the stalking behavior 14:02:52 It wasn't intended to nerf stealth against them or something 14:02:58 DracoOmega: anyway, my proposal was to remove the check_awaken check and make them less likely to start wandering (because they are more likely to be out of sight than a normal monster is, so currently this is happening more frequently than normal) 14:03:17 I thought I specifically reduced their change to forget about you when out of sight, since they often lurk there? 14:03:20 chance* 14:03:23 For that reason 14:03:31 DracoOmega: it's mon-behv.cc:738 14:03:37 there's an out-of-los stealth check 14:03:48 if it passes that, it gets the players target and doesn't wander 14:03:55 if it fails, if loses foe memory 14:04:11 (despite M_VIGILANT meaning it's foe memory doesn't naturally decline) 14:04:22 s/if loses/it loses/ 14:04:37 monsters who lose foe memory go on to wander later in that function 14:04:49 Huh. I actually tested it a bunch with Ash myself when developing it and never noticed them wandering away much more quickly than normal, but I may have overlooked something somehow 14:04:52 (if they had the player as a foe and are hostile) 14:05:12 Maybe I just had lousy stealth on every character I tested it on 14:05:13 perhaps just giving M_VIGILANT a big boost in that roll? 14:05:22 DracoOmega: if you were testing it with less than 50 stealth then you would never see this, yeah 14:05:34 Yeah, probably I just had starting stealth for whatever the character was 14:05:35 (bad magic number) 14:05:39 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:40 else if (!mons_class_flags(mon->type, M_VIGILANT) 14:05:52 ) 14:05:57 (cf. :743) 14:06:23 well there's also the quesion of 14:06:34 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:34 Grunt: well, I think they should still forget about stealthy players sometimes 14:06:35 is it wise to have them never lose foe memory 14:07:06 they will always know where the player is if we do that 14:07:06 Well, then they tended to forget about everyone a lot 14:07:23 I figure we can assume they're somewhat clairvoyant given their behavior 14:07:34 do they currently follow you after a teleport? 14:07:38 I guess they probably do? 14:07:39 I don't think so 14:07:45 Since I believe that just resets everyone's memory to 0 14:07:47 or actually yeah teleport has special code 14:07:49 right 14:08:02 in that case having them never lose foe memory sounds okay to me 14:08:23 but if the player blinks out of los? 14:08:30 they'll remember the player? 14:08:42 Well, normal things mostly do at that point too, no? 14:08:51 yes 14:09:02 Anyway, this was never meant to be a big nerf to stealth characters. I may simply have made a mistake here 14:09:17 it isn't really just stealth characters, but everyone 14:09:35 I cannot entirely remember the line of reasoning at the time, but it was definitely that I believed they were always awake before by some virtue of their stationaryness 14:09:42 since even with poor stealth, you used to have a decent chance for a turn or two before them noticing you 14:09:43 However little sense that might make if it's untrue >.> 14:09:56 cool, so no need for me to make any patch then? 14:10:00 -!- Tarragon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:09 I'm currently putting together some sort of a patch 14:10:52 I imagine they're an awful lot less scary these days due to the abjure-on-death chance, since I found the main threat was often being surrounded by things after you manage to get close enough to kill them 14:11:13 the main threat is still the torment 14:11:30 I think players were complaining about the lurking behaviour but then finding the curse skull long-gone when they were rested and ready to deal with them 14:11:43 wheals: Well, that can't actually kill you 14:11:47 -!- CJ__ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12:09 they'll probably still complain about them after the fix, of course 14:12:20 Also, testing an old version, I am definitely getting sleeping curse skulls, but no dormant statues at all 14:12:26 DracoOmega: well, I doubt that makes a huge difference since you could always blink away after killing the skull and the summons just have melee 14:12:30 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:33 statues have something else weird going on 14:12:42 I think I must have assumed they were the same thing 14:12:46 ah, a bug i found: if you enslave duvessa's soul, dowan doesn't react 14:12:49 but curse skulls and oklob plants have always been stabbable 14:12:52 presumably vice versa too 14:12:53 Probably where the misconception came from 14:13:00 though oklob plants had buggy display at some point 14:13:07 so that could have added to confusion 14:13:11 Possibly, yeah 14:13:20 And I just assumed curse skulls were like the others, since I couldn't RECALL not waking them up 14:13:26 You play an awful lot more stealthy things than I do 14:13:47 -!- ackack has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:58 statues can't be stabbed is the thing because ?? 14:14:23 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:42 DracoOmega: curse skulls are also unnatural and intelligent, so more likely to wake up anyway 14:15:24 wheals: they don't "move in any way"; presumably curse skulls can rotate their skull, at least 14:15:53 Also, even though you COULD blink away, not everyone has a cheap source of doing this normally and some of the monsters are quite fast (jiangshi) or can blink after you (phantasmal warriors) 14:16:39 oh right, jiangshi exist now as summons... well, letting curse skulls summon those was definitely a buff :P 14:16:59 revenant (10L) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 64-95 | AC/EV: 8/12 | Dam: 26 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1926 | Sp: ghostly fireball (3d23), ghostly flames, dispel undead (3d27), 04esc:blink away | Sz: Medium | Int: high. 14:16:59 %?/revenant 14:17:15 curse skull (11z) | Spd: 15 (act: 150%) | HD: 13 | HP: 55 | AC/EV: 25/3 | 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1631 | Sp: sum.undead, s.torment | Sz: tiny | Int: high. 14:17:15 %??curse_skull 14:17:16 -!- earspliT has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:24 elliptic: I don't recall if you remembered that I cut their defenses heavily at the time too? :P 14:17:38 'only 25 ac' 14:17:39 @??curse_skull 14:17:39 yeah, I know, a lot has changed 14:17:40 curse skull (11z) | Spd: 15 (act: 150%) | HD: 13 | HP: 55 | AC/EV: 25/3 | 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1631 | Sp: sum.undead, s.torment | Sz: tiny | Int: high. 14:17:56 curse toe (08z) | Spd: 7 (act: 70%) | HD: 14 | HP: 100 | AC/EV: 25/1 | 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 04fire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4087 | Sp: s.torment, sum.mushrooms | Sz: tiny | Int: high. 14:17:56 %??curse toe 14:18:00 wheals: Well, it was 40! (Also they had more hp) 14:18:32 immune to hellfire? 14:18:33 huh 14:18:51 Oh, hellfire shows up seperatedly from rF+++ on Chei now 14:18:51 -!- ackack has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:51 I hadn't noticed 14:18:54 Primitive concept of evil 14:19:23 I guess I can see those resistances on curse skulls, but on toes it seems perhaps excessive 14:19:40 !lg * recent ikiller=curse_toe 14:19:41 20. Neuromancer the Centaur Blade (L27 CeHu), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a deathcap (drain life) (summoned by a curse toe) on Zot:2 on 2014-02-13 16:39:35, with 649227 points after 113302 turns and 6:17:46. 14:19:45 toes don't have 25 AC or i wouldn't stub mine quite so easily 14:19:52 !lg * recent ikiller=curse_toe s=place 14:19:52 20 games for * (recent ikiller=curse_toe): 6x Zot:5, 6x Zot:2, 4x Zot:3, 2x Zot:4, 2x Zot:1 14:19:53 otoh they are pretty tiny 14:19:58 should have fairly good EV 14:19:58 Yours aren't cursed either (I hope!) 14:20:06 Eronarn: do yours summon mushrooms? 14:20:07 sometimes it's hard to get my toe socks off 14:20:15 Eronarn: they're wearing custom-tailored toe plate armour 14:20:23 toe barding 14:20:27 yes 14:20:31 toe nail golem armour, clearly 14:20:33 fr playable toes 14:20:35 Clearly curse skull's clairvoyance comes from Ash 14:20:38 Curses and all 14:20:48 ToEE 14:21:21 !lg * recent ikiller=ancient_lich s=place 14:21:22 320 games for * (recent ikiller=ancient_lich): 153x Zot:5, 74x Abyss:1, 29x Vaults:5, 18x Crypt:5, 7x Vaults:4, 4x D:27, 3x D:20, 3x Abyss:3, 3x Pan, 3x Abyss:2, 2x D:23, 2x Zig:11, 2x Depths:3, D:16, D:22, Abyss:5, D:26, D:21, Abyss:4, Zot:4, WizLab, Depths:1, Zig:7, D:15, Zot:3, D:18, D:17, Tar:7, Crypt:4, Zig:18 14:22:03 !lg * recent ikiller=orb_of_fire s=place 14:22:04 218 games for * (recent ikiller=orb_of_fire): 174x Zot:5, 12x Zot:2, 10x Zot:4, 9x Zot:3, 8x Zot:1, 2x Zig:24, Zig:12, Zig:19, D:1 14:22:14 -!- Sydolfas has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:22:37 kills is not necessarily the best metric for danger of curse toes, since torment doesn't kill 14:23:07 any thoughts on renaming scrolls of vulnerability? I am also thinking about increasing their incidence a bit 14:23:09 well when lm adds a torment milestone I'll query that 14:23:37 possible names: "Scroll of magic purging" or "cleanse magic" "purge magic" 14:23:46 "magical cleansing" 14:24:03 the only issue with these names is they don't suggest -MR 14:24:10 I kind of like "purge magic" 14:24:12 as Dracoomega pointed out to me 14:24:49 purge magic sort of does 14:25:03 I tend to like "purge" now too. Maybe it has enough of a negative connotation to make the -MR make sense 14:25:19 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 14:25:56 there's also maybe "scroll of anti-magic" 14:26:29 "magic or magical vulnerability" 14:26:33 My only quibble with that is that people might think it does something to monsters like antimagic weapons do 14:26:40 Purge Magic sounds probably reasonable to me, though 14:26:42 it could do that! 14:26:50 add some antimagic duration 14:26:56 would make it more useful 14:26:57 scroll of hexiness 14:26:58 Oh, that might be interesting 14:27:11 any thoughts on increasing the scrolls' appearance? 14:27:12 it could also drain some MP from the player, too 14:27:14 And the name would easily fit then 14:27:22 there's an issue that players might not be aware of the -mr aspect, which is important 14:27:25 (should antimagic weapon hits reduce MR too, then?) 14:28:48 03elliptic02 07* 0.14-a0-2606-g5a745ab: M_VIGILANT changes. 10(9 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5a745abeb842 14:29:14 (For fun's sake, the function that strips enchantments is already called antimagic() or something) 14:29:14 they could I suppose 14:29:15 I guess one issue with this is that antimagic weapon hits don't remove buffs 14:29:15 and they probably shouldn't 14:29:15 yeah and there's VS bite 14:29:15 dispelling? 14:29:15 I see nothing wrong with the scroll being a 'stronger' antimagic if we want it to do that 14:29:25 Weapons don't need to pick up all these effects 14:29:34 scroll of stripping 14:29:41 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:48 scroll of "we really don't like magic" 14:30:08 scroll of "pro-magic" 14:30:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:49 Purge Magic could still work even if it applied an antimagic effect too, I'd think? 14:31:00 I agree 14:31:06 If we wanted to make sure there was not expectation that antimagic weapons did the same things 14:31:29 And yes, more common on top of this sounds good, since they're really too rare at the moment to get much mileage out of 14:31:53 (I imagine that fix I applied a little while back that makes them not have 1/10 of the intended duration probably helps somewhat if they existed :P) 14:31:59 ontoclasm: could you make an icon for "vulnerable to magic"? One issue is that the scroll has a very short duration for that effect so it has to be taken advantage of quickly 14:32:09 gammafunk: No it doesn't! 14:32:09 1 a game is still enough to keep me from dying when I hit a zot trap on zot:5 and start to petrify :P 14:32:12 Not anymore 14:32:19 DracoOmega: oh, nice! 14:32:19 i could do so, sure 14:32:22 yeah that was annoying 14:32:25 It accidentally used 'turns' where 'aut' was asked 14:32:29 aha 14:32:32 So it lasted 1/10th as long on monsters as players 14:32:40 (Since the player function DID take turns) 14:32:49 Tryign to poly TRJ to get my GDA of TRJ was so difficult 14:32:50 oh, that makes polymorphing TRJ much easier 14:33:01 Yeah, it used to last like 3 turns 14:33:04 yes 14:33:06 You kill the fire giant! 14:33:06 Which was kind of silly 14:33:21 I'm not sure 30 turns is really necessary but 3 was certainly too low 14:33:27 -!- HoneyLocust has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:33:33 I had always assumed it lasted as long on monsters as players, and it looks like it was MEANT to 14:33:40 The symmetry is intuitive 14:33:46 right, it should be the same on each 14:33:54 But yes, it could possibly be shorter than that, so long as it's a nice bit higher than 3 14:33:54 mmm 14:33:55 and it definitely wasn't :P 14:34:01 Thought the asymmetry was a feature when I tried to poly TRJ 14:34:11 Nah, an oversight 14:34:20 I think lots of historical oversights have been assumed to be 'features' :P 14:34:26 sleepwalking 14:34:30 <_< 14:34:39 ??sleepwalking 14:34:51 sleepwalking[1/3]: What confused sleeping monsters do. By some considered to be not a bug. 14:35:01 Well, doesn't it get a unique description if you examine them? 14:35:03 i liked the xom confusion bug 14:35:04 well sleepwalking actually has code to support it :P (or has someone removed it?) 14:35:10 Which sounds like 'not a bug' (doesn't mean it's a good feature, mind) 14:35:18 DracoOmega: yeah, I think that description wasn't always there though maybe 14:35:29 simmarine: Which was this? 14:35:33 ??sleepwalking[2 14:35:33 sleepwalking[2/3]: Awesome! 14:35:33 ??sleepwalking[3 14:35:34 sleepwalking[3/3]: Here: A ball lightning (bewildered and confused, sleepwalking, mindless) 14:35:37 haha 14:35:38 it lasted 1/10 as long on monsters than players 14:35:45 Oh. Same deal, probably! 14:35:45 too bad it can't be on fire 14:35:47 so basically the same problem as ?vuln 14:36:00 It's really easy to mix up when some functions ask for turns and some for aut 14:36:04 And it's not really consistant which is which 14:36:05 simmarine: IMO a feature, xom would find that amusing 14:36:16 They both just say 'dur' or whatnot 14:38:54 "bewildered and confused,....mindless" that does seem impossible 14:39:10 Well, they don't say that anymore either 14:39:14 -!- jday_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:26 Stuff that just moves in a confused manner all the time no longer claims to be confused 14:39:29 ??mindless 14:39:31 mindless[1/1]: A tag on slimes, some undead, and some bugs that causes them to step into various clouds when they cannot step around them, without regard for their HP. They also cannot be pacified with Elyvilon, and they cannot use stairs. 14:39:43 Like vapours or whatnot (since they're still quite capable of firing at you) 14:44:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:01 i think i went through a bunch of duration/enchantment stuff a while ago and found a bunch of other things that were out by a factor of 10 in some direction 14:47:09 but then i didn't fix it or write down what they were, oops 14:47:45 oops 14:47:53 but yeah monster enchantments take aut and player durations take turns 14:48:37 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:48:38 -!- Bloaxor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:45 -!- Bloaxor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:57 (The portable altar of Nemelex falls away!) 14:48:57 or maybe the other way around! i forget 14:49:19 You have it correct, given the amount of BASELINE_DELAY in mon-cast.cc 14:51:36 Well, except that setting you.duration manually (as done in many places) is also in aut 14:51:36 But you.increase_duration or whatnot is in turns 14:51:36 And these are used interchangeably, mostly 14:53:00 nonethousand: you're making a patch to rename ?vuln ? 14:53:26 trying 14:53:38 well you could also add the anti-magic effect to it 14:53:50 hrm, is that just stepping on ?silence though? 14:53:59 does ?vuln mention glow dissipation 14:54:02 i think it does enough right now 14:54:23 yeah forgot about that side-effect of dispel 14:54:29 I think I'll limit this patch to rename + increase appearance a bit 14:54:30 -!- Zermako has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:38 maybe what it does now is enough; no need to shoehorn more things into it 14:55:38 onto might also give us an icon for the "vulnerable to magic" status, which will be helpful 14:57:04 i dont really understand why vuln gives -MR while cancelling all enchantment type thingys, it seems to me to be doing two opposite things 14:57:21 since the -MR is, of course, to give things enchantments (well, hexes) 14:57:27 but it also cancels existing ones? 14:57:58 if anything i would think it would be +MR 14:58:06 yeah, I think it's a case of "do enough stuff so that the scroll is broadly useful" 14:58:16 well having it just cancel enchantments is useful 14:58:21 except the scroll never exists 14:58:22 so no one uses it 14:58:32 crate: see what nonethousand said about a patch above 14:58:56 right but that doesnt address the fact it's doing two opposing things :p 14:59:11 indeed not 14:59:11 fine, but I'm sure they're two seperate issues 14:59:17 sure 14:59:41 it is a kind of weird trade off but I think making them appear more often will at least get people using them 15:00:00 (also +MR would get people using them) 15:00:29 anyway that was just a thought i've had for a while about vuln that I hinted at in my v:5 topic but it was off-topic there so i didnt elaborate 15:05:52 Well, this is an interesting method of digging 15:05:56 I was expecting worse things to happen 15:06:21 I tried casting Summon Forest, then burning down a tree and standing where it was, then waiting for the original wall to come back 15:06:29 I assumed I would end up inside a wall :P 15:06:35 -!- gnum has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:06:50 oh actually that reminds me, could regular trees just be opaque like mangroves 15:07:05 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:11 I think there are some vaults that rely on them not being so 15:07:18 yeah 15:07:18 Most likely 15:07:36 I was about to say there are vaults designed around "two-tiles of tree" just to obstruct views but 15:07:49 well those vaults could instead use one-tile of tree! 15:07:51 expecing single-tile tree to allow view is probably the bigger issue for vaults 15:07:54 right 15:08:04 but the ones with single-tiles would have to be looked at 15:08:04 It ruins that Veh altar vault :P 15:08:16 (that vault has been disabled for ages anyway) 15:08:19 Oh, has it? 15:08:23 i don't think these vaults would be a great loss compared anyway 15:08:32 I assume there are others that use trees in a similar way to glass, though 15:08:36 But possibly changes can be made 15:08:44 compared to the decreased annoyance of having one less type of transparent wall 15:08:57 And I guess this annoying "two-tree" rule 15:09:05 Anyway, probably being able to turn a wall into a tree and then burn the tree down and not have the wall come back is okay 15:09:22 jungle_book is the other one tothink of 15:09:25 It's way more labor-intensive than digging any other way, anyway :P 15:09:41 DracoOmega: finally, felids have another source of dig 15:09:48 yes jungle_book would lose the hidden loot i guess 15:09:59 It's not hidden now, is it? 15:10:02 I thought it was unhidden 15:10:05 its unhidden 15:10:09 making trees block los would hide it again 15:10:13 You could probably put a tiny bit of glass showing the item, though 15:10:17 With trees in the way otherwise 15:10:20 as in that bit of loot could just be removed 15:10:25 yes 15:10:31 -!- rebthor has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 15:10:32 in general having areas full of trees where you can see lots of enemies but not target them just plays badly 15:10:44 as was demonstrated by and fixed in swamp 15:10:45 Yeah, sometimes 15:10:48 alternatively get rid of trees, theyre basically wax and wax wasnt very interesting 15:11:16 I don't like removing trees altogether for thematic reasons alone 15:11:29 -!- chewymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:32 gammafunk: Honestly, I'd just let felids use wands. I don't see any compelling reason why they can't 15:11:39 DracoOmega: agree :) 15:11:42 oh yeah let's do that too and remove dig spell 15:11:58 for players only I assume? 15:12:26 imo rename trees to wax 15:12:27 problem solved 15:12:46 rubber trees instead 15:13:35 well, the game's theme did fine without trees for 5 DCSS versions not to mention all the crawl versions before that 15:14:28 either way if trees become like mangroves would mangroves also be removed 15:14:52