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00:01:22 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1845-gce14469 (34)
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00:06:29 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-1845-gce14469 (34)
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00:16:00 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1845-gce14469 (34)
00:18:14 <johnstein> ugh it's going to "update" stable again
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00:22:15 <Rotatell> Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-23-gc5ac171
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00:28:18 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1845-gce14469 (34)
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00:33:54 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1845-gce14469
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02:56:28 <johnstein> any troubleshooters around? I'm still running into an issue with the stable build rebuilding everynight on CBRO.
02:56:30 <johnstein> http://pastebin.com/d8CXMNrH
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02:57:38 <johnstein> I added echo statements to the update-crawl-stable-build.sh code.  the REVISION_OLD and VER_STR_OLD are coming up as '' so the conditional check doesn't get a match with the new REVISION and rebuilds (at least that's what it appears is happening)
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06:42:23 <Cedor> galehar, around here?
06:42:24 <Sequell> Cedor: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
06:42:29 <Cedor> !messages
06:42:29 <Sequell> (1/2) |amethyst said (1d 15h 14m 32s ago): need to adjust the parens, because >= has higher precedence than <0; something like  http://pastebin.ca/2532419
06:42:42 <Cedor> !messages
06:42:42 <Sequell> (1/1) |amethyst said (1d 15h 13m 54s ago): I also adjusted for our code style conventions (operators at beginning rather than end of line; alignment and indentation; and braces because the condition is multi-line)
06:43:54 <Cedor> !tell |amethyst i wasn't sure for the coding convention, i'll try to better next time
06:43:54 <Sequell> Cedor: OK, I'll let |amethyst know.
06:46:30 <Cedor> !tell galehar en gros sur transifex, il faut qu'on revise à nouveau toutes les trads?
06:46:30 <Sequell> Cedor: OK, I'll let galehar know.
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08:46:26 <galehar> Cedor: oui
08:46:26 <Sequell> galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:46:33 <galehar> !messages
08:46:33 <Sequell> (1/2) ChrisOelmueller said (1d 14h 20m 24s ago): error = "Cannot weild weapon"
08:46:37 <galehar> !messages
08:46:37 <Sequell> (1/1) Cedor said (2h 7s ago): en gros sur transifex, il faut qu'on revise à nouveau toutes les trads?
08:46:41 <Cedor> ok
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10:29:40 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
10:29:41 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious.
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10:49:46 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.14-a0-1846-gf89dd6c: Re-allow Fo^Yred to recall followers; fix indentation. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f89dd6c53ebf
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11:03:40 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1846-gf89dd6c (34)
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12:02:35 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
12:02:42 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
12:02:47 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
12:03:03 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
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12:05:32 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
12:05:34 <Henzell> Mordusangel (L7 MiBe) ERROR in 'dbg-scan.cc' at line 708: Exit exit_sewer[152] didn't get generated. (Sewer)
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15:14:19 <|amethyst> johnstein:  Hm... are your host and your chroot at the same OS version now?
15:14:19 <Sequell> |amethyst: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
15:14:50 <|amethyst> johnstein:  what happens if you try running <chroot>/usr/games/crawl-0.13 -version   from the host system (outside the chroot)
15:15:08 <|amethyst> johnstein:  maybe there's a library installed in the chroot that is missing from the host?
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15:27:34 <Sizzell> Experimental (shadow-god) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1861-gde8330d
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16:50:41 <Cheibriados> Vehumet range extension and static discharge. <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7974> by dck
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17:12:01 <Bloaxor> !learn add Rock_troll A stronger, tougher troll with a speed of 8 - axed in 0.12 due to its mundanity.
17:12:02 <Sequell> Rock troll[1/1]: A stronger, tougher troll with a speed of 8 - axed in 0.12 due to its mundanity.
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17:37:33 <ackack> i'd like to suggest changing pan so that having all five pan runes makes getting out of pan easier, similar to abyssal rune and abyss
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17:47:47 <Rotatell> Change (L23 FeCj)  (Abyss:1)
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18:00:13 <kilobyte> !lm * crash -log
18:00:13 <Sequell> 5997. Mordusangel, XL7 MiBe, T:2624 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Mordusangel/crash-Mordusangel-20140111-180533.txt
18:03:24 <johnstein> |amethyst: if I run the command from outside of chroot, I get this:
18:03:31 <johnstein> jmbjr@www:~$ /home/crawl/DGL/usr/games/crawl-0.13 -version | sed -ne 's/Crawl version //p'
18:03:33 <johnstein> 0.13.1-23-gc5ac171
18:03:54 <|amethyst> hm
18:04:01 <|amethyst> so that wasn't the problem
18:05:13 <johnstein> yea. and there's been a couple times (I think) where it didn't update
18:05:34 <johnstein> before the last time, I ran the command above just to be sure that it would return the current version correctly, and it worked
18:06:46 <johnstein> here's my crontab entry:
18:06:48 <johnstein> 10 1 * * * crawl-dev /home/crawl-dev/scripts/update-crawl
18:07:10 <johnstein> and the script is the same as on the wiki, cept I added a timestamp
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18:21:36 <|amethyst> johnstein: hm, maybetry adding   set -x   at the top of the script and running it again.  That will produce a lot of output, showing the exact commands it's running
18:21:40 <|amethyst> s/betry/be try/
18:22:36 <johnstein> ok. ty.
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18:38:08 <Bloaxor> !learn edit mottled_dragon_armour s/EV -1/ER 5
18:38:09 <Sequell> No change: regex `EV -1` does not match `In 0.14+: AC 6, ER 5, napalm immunity. ER 5 is too heavy to use with {Ozocubu's Armour}. In 0.13, ER 4 (same as leather), so you can still cast Ozocubu's Armour in that version.`
18:38:30 <Bloaxor> oh i see
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19:06:14 <Rotatell> Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-23-gc5ac171
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19:11:56 <Bloaxor> So, iron troll leather armour? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/crawl/irontrollarmor.png
19:12:15 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1846-gf89dd6c (34)
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19:22:12 <Cheibriados> Non-confused black Dr targeted self w/ lightning <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7975> by Skrybe
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19:46:48 <Grunt> |amethyst: <3 at the shadow-god update notice.
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19:47:49 <wheals> ?
19:49:07 * SamB pushed some tags ...
19:50:02 <|amethyst> %git d09478f5
19:50:02 <Cheibriados> 07haranp02 * 0.3-a0-426-gd09478f: Some cleanup of Abyss generation code. Beogh altars can now be found in the Abyss. 10(7 years ago, 1 file, 30+ 49-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d09478f5fd2f
19:50:12 <|amethyst> yay
19:50:33 <|amethyst> wheals:  CSZO has the shadow-god branch in experimental now
19:50:40 <nicolae-> nice
19:50:42 <|amethyst> wheals:  (not webtiles, though, until I update the server)
19:50:52 <|amethyst> s/update/restart/
19:51:01 <SamB> so, do my tags look nice?
19:51:01 <Sequell> SamB: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
19:51:06 <SamB> !messages
19:51:07 <Sequell> (1/1) ontoclasm said (9h 35m 37s ago): Because science
19:51:13 <wheals> what's a tile
19:51:37 <nicolae-> nobody can be told what a tile is
19:51:40 <nicolae-> you have to see it for yourself
19:51:41 <SamB> so pizzas are strange because *science*?
19:52:05 <|amethyst> SamB:  why does it list the commit author as the tagger (likewise date)
19:52:21 <SamB> things get confused if it's not the right date;
19:52:42 <SamB> I suppose I could have listed me, or nobody, as the tagger but oh well it's a bit late now maybe?
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19:52:51 <|amethyst> ah
19:53:03 <SamB> also I thought it would be confusing to have backdated objects in my name
19:53:09 <|amethyst> good point
19:54:33 <SamB> anyway, the point was just so old versions arrived at via "git blame" would work better with "git describe"
19:54:57 <|amethyst> yes, very useful
19:55:35 <SamB> and it turns out lightweight tags don't work there by default
19:55:41 <|amethyst> %git cafddc7
19:55:41 <Cheibriados> 07HousePet02 {|amethyst} * 0.11-a0-634-gcafddc7: Corrects are the monsters in range check for static discharge 10(1 year, 10 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=cafddc78c712
19:55:57 <|amethyst> #7974 started at that commit
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20:06:41 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-1847-gf1be033: Don't pretend to extend Static Discharge (#7974) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f1be0332a64f
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20:08:31 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[stone_soup-0.13] * 0.13.1-24-gd36c86d: Don't pretend to extend Static Discharge (#7974) 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d36c86d75a06
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20:26:54 <TZer0> !messages
20:26:54 <Sequell> No messages for TZer0.
20:27:45 <Grunt> !send TZer0 No messages for TZer0.
20:27:46 <Sequell> Sending No messages for TZer0. to TZer0.
20:27:47 <Grunt> er
20:27:48 <Grunt> :(
20:28:25 <TZer0> lol
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20:32:33 <Medar> !tell TZer0 Link to port 8080 from http://crawl.lantea.net/ would be nice
20:32:33 <Sequell> Medar: OK, I'll let tzer0 know.
20:32:45 <Grunt> !tell Medar Good idea.
20:32:45 <Sequell> Grunt: OK, I'll let medar know.
20:33:24 <nicolae-> !tell Sequell hi
20:33:24 <Sequell> Go away, nicolae-.
20:33:28 <nicolae-> wow, rude
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20:34:00 <Grunt> !lg nicolae
20:34:01 <Sequell> 4. nicolae the Caller (L2 DrSu), slain by an adder on D:2 on 2013-01-04 22:13:27, with 96 points after 1145 turns and 0:06:41.
20:34:05 <Grunt> oh
20:34:07 <Grunt> :(
20:34:15 <nicolae-> yeah i rarely play online because of reasons
20:35:54 <nicolae-> figure if i'm going to be uncool i might as well Commit to it, you know?
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20:36:34 <ackack> is being unable to refresh your flight status an intentional drawback to evocable flight?
20:36:51 <ackack> i'm assuming it's there so that boots of flying are somehow special but that strikes me as silly
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20:37:31 <ackack> with e.g. a ring of flight you're already being penalized by needing to wear that in your ring slot instead of something good
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20:40:52 <G-Flex> ackack: it also makes it worse than the spell
20:41:00 <G-Flex> (or racial permaflight)
20:41:20 <ackack> it makes no sense for it to be worse than the spell
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20:44:34 <wheals> why do monsters pick up decks?
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20:47:51 <G-Flex> does the shadow god have to be evil
20:48:15 <kilobyte> ackack: it's intentional, with some code that specifically checks it.  Whether that's a good design is another question.
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20:48:46 <wheals> (the weird thing is that boots with +fly act like other randarts with +fly)
20:49:06 <G-Flex> dithmengos piety gain could probably be a bit more original too, although I'm not sure what
20:49:29 <kilobyte> kill light sources!
20:49:44 * kilobyte counts the number of holies you kill during an average game.
20:49:54 <G-Flex> hrm
20:49:57 <G-Flex> there are other light sources I guess
20:49:59 * Grunt hands kilobyte a 0.
20:50:00 * Sequell also hands kilobyte a 0.
20:50:20 <wheals> mennas!!
20:50:24 <nicolae-> yeah, there's already an idea to get more piety from killing light sources, but still keeping "kill things" as a basic idea
20:50:27 * Grunt hands wheals a 0.5.
20:50:41 <nicolae-> also dithmengos should forbid wielding the mace of brilliance
20:50:50 <Grunt> I've thought about having Dith forbid casting Corona >_>
20:50:53 <wheals> so does anyone know about dekcs?
20:51:01 <wheals> can monsters use them and i've never noticed?
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20:51:06 <Grunt> wheals: They can't.
20:51:07 <nicolae-> i don't think monsters can use them
20:51:10 <G-Flex> Grunt: he should almost definitely get mad if you intentionally cause light
20:51:12 <wheals> they pick 'em up
20:51:28 <nicolae-> that might just be a bug but also it means if you want the deck you have to kill a guy
20:51:28 <kilobyte> G-Flex: does this include Sticky Flame?
20:51:30 <G-Flex> although I'm not sure what does that aside from corona and other god abilities
20:51:33 <G-Flex> heh
20:51:40 <Grunt> (forbid all fire magic!!!)
20:51:51 <wheals> at least i found some elves with decks, presumably they picked them up
20:52:01 <wheals> maybe they were deep elf jesters
20:52:03 <nicolae-> well, forbidding fire magic does make thematic sense, at least
20:52:20 <nicolae-> fire, the long-time enemy of shadows since days immemorial
20:52:33 <G-Flex> then he could like it when you kill firey things
20:52:33 <G-Flex> I guess
20:52:41 <nicolae-> yeah
20:52:44 <G-Flex> although I'm not sure fire magic needs a nerf
20:53:16 <G-Flex> I'm not sure I like the umbra thing, only because that seemed like an yred-specific sort of thing for servitors
20:53:26 <G-Flex> although it does make sense, obviously
20:54:36 <nicolae-> i'm starting to really like the idea of dithmengos hating fire, at least flavorwise, though it might be a bit much
20:54:46 <G-Flex> it would make sense
20:55:03 <G-Flex> dithmengos is still mad at prometheus :P
20:55:27 <G-Flex> I still think "shadows" is a bit too obvious and simple a theme for a stealth god, but eh
20:55:41 <Grunt> This isn't a "stealth god"; it's a "shadow god".
20:55:43 <G-Flex> probably would have gone with a god of shadows/dreams/nightmares
20:55:53 <nicolae-> nah shadows are cool
20:56:06 <Grunt> We don't want our new deity to get ... overshadowed.
20:56:06 <G-Flex> shadows are fine but it seems like a pretty singular thing
20:56:21 <G-Flex> like, it's extremely high-concept
20:56:28 <nicolae-> nothing wrong with high-concept
20:56:45 <nicolae-> i mean, i'd rather have five more high-concept gods than another god of hitting things better
20:56:54 <G-Flex> why are those the options
20:56:59 <G-Flex> those choices don't even have anything to do with each other
20:57:21 <G-Flex> ??umbra
20:57:21 <Sequell> umbra[1/1]: An unholy aura which increases stealth, causes accuracy penalties and cancels out haloes. Undead/**+ Yredelemnul worshippers are immune to the accuracy reduction. Produced by profane servitors.
20:58:14 <wheals> case OBJ_MISCELLANY:
20:58:14 <wheals> return pickup_misc(item, near);
20:58:30 <wheals> maybe this should judge based on the type of miscellaneous object?
20:58:55 <SamB> maybe that's what pickup_misc does?
20:59:08 <wheals> oh
20:59:37 <kilobyte> about fire vs shadows: in an ancient comic, a guy got the idea his strength is proportional to the size of his shadow.   This ends up with: http://angband.pl/tmp/kokosz.png
21:00:00 <G-Flex> I can definitely read that language
21:00:12 <wheals> it seems to pick up all non-horn, non-rune, non-evil (for good things) objects
21:00:24 <G-Flex> this question has what I hope is an obvious answer, but dithmengos chars /are/ immune to the umbra accuracy penalty, right?
21:00:30 <Grunt> Yes.
21:00:35 <Grunt> Assuming they have an umbra, yes.
21:00:44 <nicolae-> yeah that got fixed yesterday i think
21:01:29 <kilobyte> G-Flex: the guy thought he's weak when his shadow gets small, and strong when it grows.  The image should be obvious.
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21:02:36 <G-Flex> is that the entire joke
21:02:42 <G-Flex> because it sounded like you said it was going somewhere else
21:04:27 <G-Flex> anyway, high concept isn't necessarily a bad thing, but imo a god should have some flavor and personality that you can't necessarily sum up in like two words
21:06:16 <nicolae-> most of the gods can already be summed up in a word or two that gets across the basic theme, even if they have other bits beyond that
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21:07:38 <G-Flex> sorta
21:07:47 <G-Flex> there should be some personality though, preferably
21:08:02 <nicolae-> which existing gods have personalities that you like
21:08:02 <G-Flex> I also don't think he should necessarily be evil
21:08:36 <nicolae-> i mean i agree that dithmengos as is, is a little weak on flavor, but i think that has more to do with just less effort being put in there rather than any deficiency of the shadows theme
21:08:39 <G-Flex> zin, maybe TSO, ashenzari I guess
21:11:36 <Rotatell> Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-24-gd36c86d
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21:26:30 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1847-gf1be033 (34)
21:27:35 <johnstein> |amethyst: seems like right after an update, I can rerun the script over and over and it correctly doesn't update.
21:29:18 <nicolae-> thought that said crawl.beartato.org for a second
21:29:28 <G-Flex> haha
21:29:33 <G-Flex> I forget what beartato is
21:29:34 <G-Flex> but I remember it
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22:06:14 <Rotatell> Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-24-gd36c86d
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22:41:28 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt02 07[shadow-god] * 0.14-a0-1862-gaadba84: Dithmengos hates the light. 10(29 minutes ago, 15 files, 192+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=aadba846f2ac
22:42:25 <johnstein> |amethyst is it complicated to set up experimental versions?
22:42:46 <johnstein> or just a matter of editing the menus and setting up an appropriate update cronjob?
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22:47:56 <Grunt> Hm, |amethyst, can experimental branches handle save transfers gracefully?
22:48:11 <Grunt> I haven't done anything there to break save compat and I probably won't.
22:48:21 <Grunt> (since the version that went live)
22:48:46 <johnstein> also, |amethyst, it's almost certainly my cron job screwing up my crawl-stable updates.  if I run the script from commandline, it works as expected (finds the versions OK and won't update if the same), but the cron job can't get REVISION_OLD to work.
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22:51:01 <G-Flex> Grunt: neat
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22:51:15 <Rotatell> Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-24-gd36c86d
22:51:33 <G-Flex> you say "most forms of fire"
22:51:37 <G-Flex> which forms is he okay with?
22:51:48 <G-Flex> also, if you haven't, you might want to forbid djinn from worshipping him
22:51:58 <nicolae-> ah, good call there
22:51:59 <Grunt> Hahahahaha, that's a good point <3
22:52:08 <SamB> Grunt: I heard that something major would need to change before it could do anything about save compatability, and also that is really hard to handle for multiple branches that might need to change the save format ...
22:52:37 <wheals> mikee would probably like the idea of djinn not being able to worship his god
22:52:50 <G-Flex> btw "lighting up" sounds a little casual/awkward in the messages
22:52:55 <G-Flex> would "illuminating" be better?
22:52:56 <G-Flex> I'm not sure
22:53:15 <nicolae-> probably
22:53:32 <Grunt> I could forbid lava orcs, too (they glow a lot).
22:53:36 <Grunt> (also FIRE)
22:53:51 <G-Flex> heh
22:53:53 <nicolae-> i'm not sure dithmengos should hate things whose illuminatory qualities are only flavor, like freezing weapons, mostly because it'd make it a pain in the ass to know ahead of time what he'll hate and what he won't
22:54:09 <G-Flex> freezing weapons should probably be fine
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22:54:20 <nicolae-> "fire-related" and "halo" are more obvious things to avoid
22:54:44 <G-Flex> what's UNRAND_HIGH_COUNCIL?
22:54:53 <Grunt> the +2 hat of the High Council, aka glowinghat.
22:54:59 <G-Flex> ??high council
22:54:59 <Sequell> hat of the high council[1/1]: the +2 hat of the High Council {Archmagi, Wiz- Stlth-}. New for 0.14. Think of it as a hat of wild magic - more spell power but less spell success.
22:55:02 <G-Flex> oh, the new one
22:55:18 <G-Flex> nicolae-: what about holy wrath though?
22:55:25 <G-Flex> I figure holy wrath items do probably glow
22:55:49 <dck> Glows with divine radiance.
22:56:00 <nicolae-> if he's flavored as evil he might hate them anyway
22:56:00 <wheals> is he evil?
22:56:06 <G-Flex> imo he shouldn't be evil
22:56:09 <G-Flex> it's... too obvious?
22:56:12 <nicolae-> so?
22:56:16 <dck> So is there a reason for all these restrictions or is it just flavor?
22:56:35 <G-Flex> I feel like it's more interesting if he is a dark god who isn't also evil, although it doesn't make much of a difference in practice I guess
22:56:40 <nicolae-> flavor, mostly, dith was lacking in that regard, especially re: piety gain/conducts
22:56:50 <G-Flex> does OTR really illuminate anything?
22:56:56 <G-Flex> I forget what the flavor is on that
22:57:03 <kilobyte> a god of the undead who also uses shadow demons a lot, not evil?
22:57:13 <G-Flex> huh
22:57:14 <nicolae-> undead?
22:57:17 <Grunt> Undead?
22:57:19 <nicolae-> OTR does glow
22:57:19 <G-Flex> what are you talking about
22:57:21 <Bloaxor> kikubaaqudgha doesn't mind holy wrath
22:57:28 <dck> are shadows like enemy shadows?
22:57:29 <wheals> This spell causes the caster to radiate toxic energy, continuously inflicting
22:57:29 <wheals> poison on everything nearby for as long as the spell lasts.
22:57:35 <dck> I thought they were their own thing.
22:57:42 <G-Flex> "radiate toxic energy" doesn't imply it also radiates light
22:57:56 <G-Flex> imo freezing brand/aura should definitely be fine
22:58:28 <kilobyte> for some strange reason OTR was made to ignore invisibility, so I'd say it's not light based
22:58:31 <nicolae-> yeah, i think anti-fire, anti-halo, and anti-glow are fine conducts for now
22:58:44 <G-Flex> ??dragon form
22:58:44 <Sequell> dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+50% hp) and strong! Gives +10 str, flight, rPois+ rFire++ rCold-, 34% GDR, +16 AC, huge size (will nuke your EV). Base unarmed damage = (20 + str*(2/3) + unarmed_skill).
22:58:50 <kilobyte> invis used to provide immunity from OTR until recently
22:58:51 <G-Flex> is this still tmut/fire?
22:58:56 <Grunt> It is pure tmut.
22:58:57 <wheals> excommunicates you if you get hit by a mottled dragon
22:58:59 <G-Flex> oh okay
22:59:08 <G-Flex> Grunt: make sure he gets mad about fire breath :P
22:59:09 <G-Flex> if you haven't
22:59:14 <Grunt> I think he does already.
22:59:20 <Grunt> s/he/Dith/
22:59:32 <G-Flex> wheals: let dith give you rNapalm obviously!
22:59:38 <dck> what does dang the shadowed think about lightning?
22:59:45 <G-Flex> that's a good question
22:59:59 <G-Flex> lightning spells probably illuminate the dungeon more than fire spells do
23:00:03 <G-Flex> well, some fire spells
23:00:25 <nicolae-> that's a good point
23:00:26 <dck> Because it does seem a bit excessive to just lock people out of basically all fire spells and half of air ones
23:00:33 <dck> based on flavor.
23:00:51 <G-Flex> there's a god that locks you out of /all/ spells
23:01:05 <G-Flex> and three that lock you out of necromancy, one of which also locks you out of poison
23:01:14 <G-Flex> and another of which locks you out of tmut
23:01:32 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt02 07[shadow-god] * 0.14-a0-1863-gbc72a1f: Disallow fiery beings from worshipping Dithmengos. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bc72a1ff31f2
23:01:32 <Cheibriados> 03Grunt02 07[shadow-god] * 0.14-a0-1864-g221ecee: Lift restriction on Dith followers using freezing melee weapons. 10(64 seconds ago, 2 files, 0+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=221eceeb5c9e
23:01:34 <dck> and they were all designed with said restrictions in mind.
23:01:37 <Grunt> And another which hates conjurations.
23:01:59 <G-Flex> there's a god that hates conjurations?
23:02:03 <Grunt> (To be fair, I only discovered that when writing some of this code.)
23:02:07 <Grunt> G-Flex: Ely
23:02:08 <SwissStopwatch> Is this a bad time to argue that the idea of shadow and fire being contradictory is actually kind of silly
23:02:12 <G-Flex> I... didn't know that
23:02:31 <dck> You can't have shadows without a light source.
23:02:36 <SwissStopwatch> yes
23:02:45 <nicolae-> actually if you got rid of all the light sources you'd have shadows everywhere
23:02:51 <G-Flex> I think fire and darkness being opposed is a pretty old theme in human history
23:02:58 <G-Flex> so whether it's silly or not by certain standards, I think it's fine
23:03:02 <SwissStopwatch> Total darkness is not the same as shadows everywhere
23:03:10 <wheals> if everyone's shadowed...then nobody's shadowed
23:03:13 <G-Flex> SwissStopwatch: well maybe you shouldn't be interpreting "shadows" so literally
23:03:16 <G-Flex> this is basically a god of darkness
23:03:46 <nicolae-> i'm assuming that ely doesn't ever actually check if you use conjurations
23:03:57 <SwissStopwatch> Who would use them when you have greater healing
23:03:58 <G-Flex> in what way does ely hate conjurations anyway
23:06:01 <G-Flex> one potential problem
23:06:11 <G-Flex> if dith hates fire, what about involuntary sources
23:06:19 <G-Flex> only one I can think of is ignite blood
23:06:20 <nicolae-> like getting sticky flamed?
23:06:23 <Bloaxor> penance for being on fire
23:06:33 <G-Flex> I would be cool with dith giving rNapalm
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23:06:41 <Basil> ****** gifts MDA
23:06:48 <wheals> he could supress ignite blood
23:06:52 <nicolae-> well, okawaru used to suppress demon guardian, i don't see why dith couldn't suppress ignite blood, if the anti-fire thing remains
23:06:59 <G-Flex> ignite blood is still useful even if suppressed anyway
23:07:02 <Grunt> Interesting idea.
23:07:06 <G-Flex> you still get flame cloud immunity and rF+ and scroll cons
23:07:11 <kilobyte> Grunt: why would you ban Dj?
23:07:11 <dck> ?brand weapon says your weapon emits a brilliant flash of light when you make something vorpal.
23:07:17 <dck> imo ban ?bw
23:07:20 <G-Flex> Dj are literally made out of fire
23:07:22 <Grunt> kilobyte: aren't you flavouring Dj as beings of pure fire?
23:07:40 <G-Flex> a god of shadow and darkness probably wouldn't like beings that glow constantly
23:07:52 <Basil> !apt dj stealth
23:07:52 <Sequell> Dj (SK_STEALTH)=-1
23:07:57 <kilobyte> Grunt: yes, same as humans are beings of clay
23:08:07 <wheals> clearly they should be allowed to worship him but he excommunicates them when they cast a spell
23:08:08 <G-Flex> huh
23:08:12 <wheals> since they glow a bit
23:08:16 <G-Flex> it's pretty well-established that djinn are made out of fire, I thought
23:08:19 <kilobyte> Grunt: I know this makes no sense, but it's in the Koran
23:08:29 <G-Flex> the koran is not the only source of inspiration for djinn
23:08:41 <G-Flex> crawl djinn seem to be more heavily fire-oriented
23:08:53 <Bloaxor> crawl djinn seem to be more efreeti in disguise
23:09:21 <kilobyte> they'd be auto-coronaed and unable to use invisibility if they glowed
23:09:53 <G-Flex> well they don't necessarily glow /that/ much
23:09:59 <Grunt> A lot of the flavour text of djinn refers to them as "spirits of fire" at the moment.
23:10:01 <nicolae-> the restriction against fire is more flavor rather than simply mechanical glow+halo
23:10:03 <G-Flex> and invisibility could suppress it since it's a natural part of them or something like that
23:10:24 <G-Flex> at any rate, crawl definitely flavors djinn as firey beings currently
23:10:35 <nicolae-> still, it'd probably be good to sit down and think about what sources of light, either mechanical or flavor, dith should be against
23:10:58 <G-Flex> from the species selection page: "The Djinn are spirits of fire [...]"
23:11:18 <dck> the thing is not a whole lot of things in crawl glow at all, mechanically.
23:11:31 <G-Flex> literally being on fire doesn't make you "glow"
23:11:37 <SwissStopwatch> crawl really doesn't have much of a light system at all
23:11:37 <dck> like, creating a cloud of fire doesn't light up the surroundings
23:11:40 <Basil> Well, flavour things are sometimes cast in that light
23:11:48 <Basil> like Fedhas prohibiting Gh
23:11:52 <SwissStopwatch> And it certainly is not considered mechanically important except for a few specific abilities
23:11:59 <Basil> and Vp, and Mu
23:12:05 <G-Flex> from the race description screen: "Being spirits of fire, they obviously suffer no harm from any kind of fire [...]"
23:12:22 <nicolae-> opposition to mechanical glowing things would just mean being anti-halo and anti-corona for the most part
23:12:33 <nicolae-> which i think is how the topic of anti-fire as a flavor thing came up
23:13:02 <G-Flex> I'm surprised nobody's suggested he get an LOS-lowering ability
23:13:08 <Grunt> It's been suggested.
23:13:14 <dck> it made mikee cry
23:13:16 <Grunt> I'm not going to do it; there's already enough LOS lowering.
23:13:23 <G-Flex> fair enough
23:13:28 <Basil> But how will you get to 1-range LOS
23:13:31 <G-Flex> it's a shame because it would make a lot of sense
23:13:36 <Grunt> Also it's kind of controversial <_<
23:13:38 <G-Flex> for the god of shadow and darkness to do that
23:13:39 <G-Flex> heh
23:14:02 <G-Flex> you do get fog though, right?
23:14:08 <G-Flex> of some form
23:14:09 <nicolae-> maybe just keep the anti-halo and then flavor the anti-fire stuff as a deep symbolic antipathy that dith cares about a whole bunch so that you don't have to worry about non-fire non-mechanical illumination
23:14:17 <nicolae-> atm if you get hit really hard you make smoke come out
23:14:27 <kilobyte> Grunt: being made of fire != being on fire
23:14:29 <G-Flex> oh no not the magic smoke
23:14:46 <G-Flex> nicolae-: that sounds sensible
23:14:55 <G-Flex> nicolae-: he should still hate it if you cause forest fires with air spells though
23:14:57 <Basil> ??dithmengos
23:14:57 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled dithmengos in my learndb.
23:15:48 <kilobyte> G-Flex: air spells that cause forest fires also give off pretty bright light
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23:16:22 <G-Flex> yeah, but if we're going with nicolae-'s suggestion of only caring about fire spells and not other magic, caring about forest fires still makes snese
23:16:24 <G-Flex> sense*
23:17:06 <Bloaxor> I'm forever tainted by Bartimaeus when it comes to djinn and the like.
23:17:41 <dck> hm
23:17:45 <nicolae-> like i said, we could just flavor the anti-spell thing as being specifically anti-fire, because of fire's mythical ancient role as humanity's first source of illumination, the first thing that humans could control to beat back the darkness
23:18:41 <dck> make using metal weapons against armored or metallic enemies give you penance if you do too much damage
23:18:42 <nicolae-> so dith is kind of "ehhh" when it comes to lightning but just really hates fire because fifty thousand years ago the god of fire pointed to a bunch of neanderthals figuring it all out and went "nyah nyah" at him
23:19:04 <nicolae-> , in a mythic sort of way, so to speak
23:19:30 <Grunt> Well, nobody ever said the deities had to be rational about things.  Just look at Xom. :)
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23:20:01 <nicolae-> they probably have to deal with a bunch of symbolism and archetypes up there in the pantheon
23:20:02 <Grunt> I do like nicolae's train of thought here.
23:20:35 <nicolae-> they don't just think about fire, they think about what fire Means To People
23:20:43 <Lightli> what's with all teh fire talk
23:20:44 <Lightli> *the
23:20:50 <kilobyte> Grunt: Xom is actually pretty consistent and rational.  It's Zin who's an inconsistent hypocrite.
23:21:10 <Grunt> I can kind of imagine Dith being okay with lightning on the basis that despite it being a really bright light, it's very instantaneous and it throws the darkness that comes immediately afterwards into sharp relief.
23:21:20 <nicolae-> yeah
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23:21:39 <nicolae-> whatever mechanics we come up with we can probably make up flavor to justify it, really
23:23:51 <G-Flex> I think the anti-fire thing improves the flavor
23:24:05 <G-Flex> Grunt: also lightning is scary
23:24:11 <G-Flex> and the god of shadows should like scary things
23:24:22 <nicolae-> ditto, which is why i keep talking about it, but i do think it helps to figure out just where the line should be drawn
23:25:02 <Lightli> lightning doesn't really count since it only illuminates for a split second
23:25:05 <G-Flex> I don't think disallowing fire is too much of a problem mechanically
23:25:08 <G-Flex> fire magic is basically all conjurations
23:25:21 <G-Flex> it's not like necromancy where you're also disallowing a lot of neat utility stuff everybody might want
23:25:25 <Lightli> yeah
23:25:49 <Lightli> the only 3 spells with purposes other than killdudes are conjure flame, ring of flames, and technically fire storm
23:26:04 <nicolae-> plus, in another sense, if part of the idea of the god is to appeal to stabbers, that target audience probably isn't going to be blowing things up much anyway
23:26:08 <johnstein> ??conjurations
23:26:08 <Sequell> conjuration[1/1]: Magic school that blows things up.
23:26:12 <Grunt> ...you've never used those first two to killdudes?
23:26:17 <Lightli> I have
23:26:39 <johnstein> so no wands of fireball or fire or flame?
23:26:42 <G-Flex> conjure flame is still like
23:26:46 <G-Flex> half-killdudes
23:26:50 <Lightli> yeah
23:26:55 <wheals> same with ignite poison technically
23:26:58 <G-Flex> same with ring of flames and fire storm almost entirely is
23:27:02 <Lightli> and fire storm is 99% killdudes
23:27:09 <johnstein> that does sound pretty neat
23:27:18 <Lightli> ...come to think of it, fire could use a little more variety
23:27:31 <G-Flex> my question is: is there a way for this god to /promote/ using shadowy things?
23:27:40 <G-Flex> like darkness, lantern of shadows, fog, etc.
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23:28:08 <wheals> maybe likes attacking from the shadows?
23:28:10 <nicolae-> i think the design of the fire school is supposed to mostly be "blowing things up" as a way to differentiate it from other elemental schools
23:28:19 <Grunt> I don't want to get this too overloaded down with special cases.
23:28:23 <nicolae-> well fog is its own promotion
23:28:27 <nicolae-> that too
23:28:45 <Lightli> nicolae-: It is literally nothing but "blowing things up"
23:29:08 <G-Flex> there's also /indirectly/ blowing things up!
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23:29:13 <G-Flex> also ring of flames sorta counts as blowing yourself up
23:29:21 <Lightli> hell, the main draw of ring of flames is making your "blow things up" spells better
23:29:36 <Lightli> (clearly haste should be level 5 fire/charms :v)
23:30:47 <G-Flex> random idea: an invocation that quenches flame clouds, sticky flame, etc.
23:30:56 <wheals> control winds
23:31:37 <Lightli> (more seriously, maybe it could get a low level fire/charms spell to go alongside ozo's/rmsl/stoneskin)
23:31:49 <Grunt> ...which would be?
23:32:01 <Lightli> I don't know
23:32:01 <nicolae-> well, i don't think it's strictly necessary to have an anti-fire invocation, honestly. look at trog. flavorwise he hates magic and magicians, but that's mostly only reflected in his conduct and piety gain
23:32:06 <wheals> Amulet of Flames
23:32:09 <Grunt> nicolae-: Burn Spellbooks
23:32:09 <G-Flex> the most defensive fire spell I could think of would be one that singes people who try to attack you
23:32:11 <G-Flex> like the lava orc thing
23:32:26 <G-Flex> nicolae-: yeah, it was just an idea
23:32:30 <Lightli> the lava orc thing that got removed
23:32:42 <Grunt> What? It still exists AFAIK.
23:32:46 <wheals> it does
23:32:55 <wheals> i know since it causes lots and lots of message spam
23:33:05 <Grunt> (I'd *like* to remove it - surely we have enemies that are hotter than lava orcs that don't do this.)
23:33:25 <G-Flex> lava orcs are hotter
23:33:28 <G-Flex> but it's very short-range heat, you see
23:33:48 <Grunt> You can stand next to a pool of lava without suffering ill effects.
23:33:54 <Lightli> oh
23:34:19 <Grunt> Lava orcs are presumably not hotter than lava; they're possibly as hot as lava in extreme circumstances, but I can't sense there being much of a difference there <_<
23:34:42 <Grunt> (random idea: speed up lava orc metabolism with temperature - though that steps on the toes of a few other things I can think of)
23:34:57 <wheals> metabolism meaning hunger?
23:35:01 <Grunt> Yes.
23:35:11 <Lightli> how much?
23:35:13 <wheals> that sounds insignificant
23:35:21 <G-Flex> yeah that sounds like it would either not do much or get annoying
23:35:55 <Lightli> also yeah in all honesty hunger is irrelevant after the early game
23:36:05 <Lightli> (outside of corner cases)
23:37:39 <G-Flex> it can be relevant
23:37:44 <G-Flex> but that wouldn't make it relevant, at least not much
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23:38:41 <nicolae-> what if lava orc's heat aura were a sort of magical effect that could be (a)bilitied when you were super hot
23:38:48 <G-Flex> that sounds worse
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23:56:58 <johnstein> |amethyst: I've got my mysterious update issue somewhat isolated. It definitely seems to be an issue with the cron job.
23:57:46 <johnstein> |amethyst: http://pastebin.com/3kniqxDs  I set up a really simple test script to check the -version. when I run this on the commandline, it works ok. when I run it via the cron-job it doesn't.
23:57:52 <johnstein> both are run as crawl-dev
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23:59:55 <|amethyst> johnstein:  hm