00:00:57 Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13.1-23-gc5ac171 00:01:36 -!- tensorpudding has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:07 Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af (34) 00:03:20 <|amethyst> hahah... apparently (at least in en_US) the X compose tables have C C C P -> ☭ (you have to do it in all caps) 00:05:55 hello 00:06:17 -!- atrodo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:23 Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af (34) 00:07:28 -!- roxton has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:31 <|amethyst> Naruni: hello 00:08:12 -!- ssteam has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 00:09:53 -!- ebarrett has quit [] 00:10:05 |amethyst: i need another assignment 00:10:23 ive been surfing through the mantis but cant anything that i can really tackle 00:10:32 cant find* 00:10:39 -!- AlphaQ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:44 sounds like me 00:11:13 <|amethyst> Naruni: Any particular kind of thing you're interested in? 00:11:39 <|amethyst> Naruni: UI, bugs, spells, monsters, ... 00:11:53 |amethyst: i would really love to get all the item descriptions onto formatted_scroller object, but i'm extraordinarily bad at text manipulation 00:12:21 <|amethyst> I assume you looked into this already 00:12:24 i would say spells and monsters are my strong point/enjoyable hobbby 00:12:29 <|amethyst> I would not credit that to you being bad 00:12:43 <|amethyst> I would credit it to our description generation code being incomprehensible 00:12:50 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:51 -!- Lorrdernie has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:12:51 <|amethyst> ask ChrisOelmueller about it sometime :) 00:12:56 yes, the item description generation .cc is to put it frank, fucked 00:14:08 ive also looked into re-writing beam.cc but these sources get so big and so patchy it's almost impossible to know where to start 00:14:39 <|amethyst> ha 00:14:52 <|amethyst> Naruni: how about this: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:hangedman#worldbinder 00:15:08 -!- tkappleton has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:14 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:15:26 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:44 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:38 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af (34) 00:21:43 |amethyst: so that monster needs a spell written "Forceful Invitation" that grabs a summon from one of those sets? 00:22:30 -!- Whistling_Bread has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:24:08 <|amethyst> Well, there are a few options for implementing that 00:24:26 <|amethyst> but in the design, a single worldbinder will only summon from one set 00:25:28 <|amethyst> so either one spell that checks some prop of the monster (and some sane fallback if it's not there, random for example); or one spell per branch 00:25:49 -!- thedefinite has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 00:26:07 <|amethyst> another sane fallback would be current branch; then it's a variation on shadow creatures 00:26:25 <|amethyst> except that doesn't work in all branches, so the fallback would need a fallback :) 00:27:19 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:01 <|amethyst> monster-only would be fine, or a dummy player implementation for wizmode but it shouldn't be a "real" player spell 00:28:38 <|amethyst> (though a summoning spell powered by runes would be kind of neat) 00:31:43 what about adding a monster property "int worldbinder_set;" then on monster gen if monster = worldbinder assign it a random (or weighted) int that corresponds to an array (0=elf 1=orc...) then that instance of worldbinder is bound to that set 00:31:59 then the spell will accept an argument of which set to choose from 00:32:15 <|amethyst> I wouldn't add a new member like that for a single monster 00:32:25 <|amethyst> maybe a prop 00:33:01 prop certainly saves work 00:33:08 probably space too 00:33:31 <|amethyst> definitely space unless you've got hundreds of worldbinders in arena :) 00:34:44 yes but it requires a bit more thinking to figure that out rather than to figure out "oh, this doesn't need any upgrade code!" 00:35:10 or indeed any dedicated serialization code 00:35:20 <|amethyst> Yeah 00:35:38 <|amethyst> we should set up a section of learndb for dev stuff 00:35:53 <|amethyst> or reserve a prefix, now that most characters are accepted 00:36:05 <|amethyst> ??& 00:36:05 I don't have a page labeled & in my learndb. 00:36:14 Stable (0.13) branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.13.1-23-gc5ac171 00:36:18 ??DgCK 00:36:18 DgCK ~ deck[1/4]: A deck of intensely magical cards, in general significantly more powerful than scrolls, spells, or potions. Each deck contains 4-13 cards *independently* (no point counting) chosen according to 99% the deck's flavour, 1% the Deck of Oddities. See {deck of }, {divine gift[2]}, {card power}, { card}. 00:37:09 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:37:17 is this monster intended to replace the current abyssal guest thing? 00:37:22 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: yeah 00:37:53 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:15 cool, not sure what i think of it as a monster but it definitely seems like a better approach than currently 00:38:26 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:39:45 <|amethyst> another thing is, the spell should not generate bands 00:40:29 * SamB would not hire any crawl band for a gig ... 00:40:29 * Sequell also would not hire any crawl band for a gig ... 00:41:56 am i right in thinking each worldbinder needs to have some sort of attachment to a specific set? the spell should not randomly choose from any set 00:42:13 <|amethyst> Naruni: right 00:42:16 Naruni: yes, so we set a prop on the monstesr 00:42:43 yeah so i was just reading about properties, and im looking into monster.h for examples 00:42:52 ...and cant find any :) 00:42:55 well yeah 00:43:03 monster.h doesn't use them 00:43:14 well there's my problem right there 00:44:54 so off you grep ... 00:45:14 (you'll probably find much more of that in .cc files) 00:45:16 <|amethyst> lots of things other than monsters use props, and they work the same 00:46:01 <|amethyst> the class is CrawlHashTable but it will probably help more to look at places where it is used (grep for props) rather than the implementation 00:46:02 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af 00:46:13 <|amethyst> but store.h is the reference for the API 00:46:27 <|amethyst> such as it is 00:46:43 <|amethyst> hm 00:46:46 is it just me or are there WAAY more numerical types than needed 00:49:05 <|amethyst> one for each size sounds reasonable, until you see all the places you have to do x.props["blah"].get_int() = foo; 00:50:24 <|amethyst> we'd need at least int and int64 (and float) anyway 00:51:21 I assume you mean double? 00:51:37 <|amethyst> it actually can't store a double :) 00:51:46 it can't? 00:52:28 <|amethyst> nope, StoreUnion has float _float; and that's it 00:52:44 throw.cc: baseDam = property(item, PWPN_DAMAGE); <-- is that an example of what im looking for? 00:52:58 <|amethyst> no, that's something different 00:53:23 you want props[" 00:54:36 <|amethyst> also props.exists, props.erase 00:54:47 mon-stuff.cc mons->props["original_ name"] = name; <-- that? 00:54:57 <|amethyst> yup 00:55:02 cool thanks 00:55:22 i can reverse engineer from there... hopefully will have something in a day or two 00:55:37 <|amethyst> and look in mon-death.cc to see how that property is used later 00:56:09 i had one other question about that monster and it's spell 00:56:15 <|amethyst> as for where to set the prop, probably define_monster 00:56:35 <|amethyst> yeah? 00:57:58 Orc: orc priest w:9 / orc warrior w:7 / warg w:3 / troll w:1 <-- does this mean 45% priest, 35% warrior, 15% warg, 5% troll? 00:58:02 for weights 00:59:01 <|amethyst> Naruni: yes, but you can give those numbers directly to random_choose_weighted 01:00:32 <|amethyst> random_choose_weighted(9, MONS_ORC_PRIEST, 7, MONS_ORC_WARRIOR, ...) 01:00:42 <|amethyst> or something like thate 01:00:49 <|amethyst> s/ate/at/ 01:00:58 -!- Zeor has quit [Quit: [zeor intensifies]] 01:01:13 ill get working on it 01:01:20 cya guys 01:01:23 <|amethyst> (keep in mind while looking into that, that there are several different overloads) 01:01:26 <|amethyst> later 01:01:29 <|amethyst> and thanks 01:10:42 -!- eith|2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:41 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:47 -!- minqmay has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:18:19 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18:33 anyone feel like removing poisoned chunks and just making them brown or white instead? 01:18:50 pink! 01:19:02 (I can even write the patch i just want to know if that's an instant nack) 01:21:42 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 01:29:05 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 01:40:40 -!- MP2E has quit [Quit: night] 01:43:51 -!- neuwiz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:44:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:45:38 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 01:46:15 that's a strange suggestion to make out of the blue 01:47:51 -!- y2s82_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:48:08 Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af (34) 01:48:09 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:57 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:04 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:28 it is from a tavern thread 01:59:08 someone complained about ring swapping to eat and I thought it was a better solution 02:00:07 I don't think they add much to the game at all, very few decisions to make to differentiate them from other corpses 02:03:12 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06:39 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:07:05 -!- lobf_ has quit [Quit: lobf_] 02:07:11 -!- conted_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:08:09 -!- TAS_2012v has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:15:50 well, if you don't have rPois it's fairly significant 02:18:05 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:06 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:12 -!- nixor1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:15 -!- nixor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:30:14 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:37 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:31:41 -!- NTRAFF has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:40:27 -!- Hailley has quit [Quit: Petra is closed!] 02:42:38 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:50:15 -!- kunwon1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:13 -!- kunwon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:07 -!- simmarine has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:18 -!- ig0rbit has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:59:14 -!- Blazinghand_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:01 -!- iasov has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:17 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:21:11 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:16 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:33:30 !seen kilobyte 03:33:30 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Jan 7 17:08:15 2014 UTC (16h 25m 15s ago) saying 'I recently went through mpr() calls so you can trivially tell apart fixed strings, you can get a nearly complete list with a single grep' on ##crawl-dev. 03:35:30 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:17 -!- gammafunk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:41 -!- morik has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:03 -!- Mandevil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:05 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:47 -!- kilobyte has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:05:31 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:12 -!- SkaryMonk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:45 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:23 -!- darkschneider has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 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has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:58:23 -!- radinms has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:09:36 !messages 06:09:36 No messages for TZer0. 06:15:16 -!- Zermako has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:54 -!- SkaryMonk1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:10 -!- Datgum has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:19:11 -!- SkaryMonk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:01 -!- stuntaneous has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:29:55 -!- Nakatomy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:36:19 -!- Vizer has quit [Quit: bye] 06:53:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:36 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:13 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:05:55 -!- SkaryMonk1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:29 -!- Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:43 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:33 -!- eith|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:17 -!- eith is now known as eith_ 07:23:21 -!- 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Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 08:32:49 -!- jnlknskadf has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:56 -!- thened has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:51 -!- bonghitz has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:40:21 -!- Guest20384 has quit [*.net *.split] 08:40:21 -!- atrodo has quit [*.net *.split] 08:40:21 -!- roxton has quit [*.net *.split] 08:43:04 -!- Guest20384 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:39 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:47:06 kilobyte, mind if I PM? 08:52:04 -!- Guillome_renard is now known as Qoon 08:57:06 -!- Basil has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:37 -!- orionstein_away is now known as orionstein 09:47:41 -!- Cheibriados has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:41 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 09:47:42 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Check out new European server at ??clan! | Play Crawl online now: type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??webtiles for instructions | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: termcast.develz.org | ##crawl-offtopic: You got your gender in my peanut butter! Xom thinks this is hilarious. 09:51:48 -!- Amy has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:53:49 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:01 -!- Tux[Qyou] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:59:27 -!- Sizzell has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:02:09 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:02:47 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 10:07:09 -!- jacobian has quit [Excess Flood] 10:11:17 -!- dck has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:24:53 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:27 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:33:06 -!- Guest62734 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:46 <|amethyst> !learn add is_cszo_down[1] Apparently (2013-01-08 16:35 UTC). 10:34:46 is cszo down[1/3]: Apparently (2013-01-08 16:35 UTC). 10:34:48 -!- SwissStopwatch has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:42 -!- Psyknux has quit [Quit: Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz. 123456890] 10:58:53 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:03:03 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af (34) 11:08:00 -!- araganzar has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:47 -!- xFleury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:56 !seen mumra 11:09:56 Sorry xFleury, I haven't seen mumra. 11:12:20 -!- ground4 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 11:14:50 -!- Crehl has quit [Quit: qqqqqqq] 11:18:11 -!- raskol has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:18:33 -!- araganzar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:18:50 -!- tda is now known as thedefinite 11:22:58 -!- morik has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:26 -!- Sizzell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:16 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:25:14 -!- |amethys1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:15 -!- |amethyst has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:25:26 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 11:27:37 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:25 -!- heteroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:56 -!- Lightli has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:12 -!- Somefello has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:39 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##crawl-dev 12:16:46 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:57 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:18 Game refers to vampire as "it" when it attacks after vanishing by Lorkhan 12:20:07 -!- Azrael_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:20:45 good bug 12:21:56 -!- Turgon has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:45 -!- Qoon is now known as qoon 12:23:36 -!- lobf_ has quit [Quit: lobf_] 12:23:57 -!- jacobian has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:26:48 -!- Shadowmage952 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:26:59 -!- qoon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:20 -!- Guillome_renard is now known as qoon 12:27:37 -!- qoon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:30 -!- Guillome_renard is now known as qoon 12:29:24 -!- nixor1 has left ##crawl-dev 12:30:29 -!- nixor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:28 -!- Kalir has quit [Quit: CADENZA-CLASS CLOCKWORK KNIGHT--OPERATION TERMINATED] 12:32:21 -!- Guest62734 is now known as SwissStopwatch 12:33:28 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:05 -!- uglyjohn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:36:56 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 12:38:18 <|amethyst> I agree with the suggestion to use "something" instead of "it" there 12:39:03 <|amethyst> but don't think that would be very easy to implement, because we wouldn't want to replace all "it"s with "something" 12:43:39 -!- Egglet has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:47:13 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:25 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:21 -!- pwnmonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:10 -!- Kalir has quit [Changing host] 12:55:43 -!- Lightli has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:57:48 -!- caleba has quit [Quit: caleba] 12:59:31 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:13 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:02 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Quit: pwnmonkey] 13:02:20 -!- bmfx has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:22 !seen ontoclasm 13:02:23 I last saw ontoclasm at Tue Jan 7 19:01:18 2014 UTC (1d 1m 4s ago) quitting, saying 'Ping timeout: 240 seconds'. 13:03:04 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:24 -!- araganzar has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:11 |amethyst: clearly a some sort of contextual flag is needed ... 13:13:33 and this sort of thing is EXACTLY why gettext is totally inadequate ... 13:14:17 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 13:14:36 -!- simmarine has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:40 <|amethyst> I don't think anyone was suggesting to have a gettext entry for "it" 13:15:07 <|amethyst> That's like saying printf is totally inadequate for our current purposes (ignoring translation) 13:15:10 or at least, it's not enough; we'd need some kind of grammar formatter thing ... 13:15:10 <|amethyst> of course it is 13:15:34 I meant, gettext + printf is not enough 13:15:38 <|amethyst> Right 13:15:43 <|amethyst> there needs to be grammar handling 13:15:48 -!- HellTiger has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:16:00 -!- Tuxedo[Qyou] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:05 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:16:09 -!- agentgt has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:30 <|amethyst> probably a DSL that, as galehar suggests, could be put into our translated strings 13:16:31 we'd need some way to attach grammar-related flags to the places where grammatical stuff needs to be interpolated ... 13:17:32 and we'd also need to allow some kind of language-specific routines to do grammar stuff ... 13:18:16 and really we'd want gettext to *understand* this junk well enough to complain when it was royally screwed in the translations 13:18:21 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:18:50 do you know of any applications which support anything of the kind? 13:19:21 I mean, the Inform *library* supports multiple languages, but not really in one game ... 13:22:35 <|amethyst> At the very least I'd want those language-specific routines to be Lua, not C++ 13:22:44 <|amethyst> so people don't have to recompile the program to work on translations 13:23:47 hrmm 13:24:16 that sounds quite hard 13:25:19 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:26:11 and brings up the whole sticky subject of the Lua APIs using english-y names instead of enumerations 13:26:38 <|amethyst> I was thinking something like "%{DEFINITE|NOMINATIVE} %{AGREE:1} %{DEFINITE|ACCUSATIVE} but %{AGREE:1} no damage" as the English version, where %{AGREE:1} means the verb needs to agree with the first %{} 13:26:41 and, you know, how to internationalize the lua 13:27:13 <|amethyst> I think APIs should not use translation in general 13:27:23 |amethyst: presumably it would be necessary to allow reordering of the parameters 13:27:32 <|amethyst> SamB: right, which printf already does 13:27:36 I know it does 13:28:05 I'm really not sure why, but I've read through much of the gettext manual at one time or another ;-) 13:31:33 <|amethyst> things like monster::name would need to return more than just a string, too 13:32:27 -!- jvj24601 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:32:30 because that is so overloaded, right? 13:33:05 <|amethyst> for verb agreement for example we need to know the number, gender, and person 13:33:28 <|amethyst> and probably more in some languages I am not familiar with 13:33:32 isn't that language-specific? 13:33:39 I mean, what those things are 13:33:43 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:33:52 <|amethyst> Right, so that information would need to be encoded somehow in the translation 13:34:08 <|amethyst> with support for arbitrary key/value pairs 13:34:52 hrmm. 13:35:38 <|amethyst> I guess one tough thing is, which grammatical flags need to be passed up the parse tree, and which need to be passed down 13:35:50 oh darn, a parse tree? 13:35:58 oh, right ... 13:36:26 now I get what you meant about the monster::name needing to return extra stuff 13:36:34 <|amethyst> not necessarily a full parse tree for the language's grammar, and maybe usually a very shallow one 13:37:26 <|amethyst> But at the very least, which stuff needs to percolate from word to clause and which stuff needs to percolate from clause to word 13:37:55 <|amethyst> e.g. case would usually percolate downwards from clause to constituent 13:38:09 * SamB pulls out the DM4 13:38:12 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 13:38:20 <|amethyst> Gender would percolate upwards for (most?) nouns, downwards for things like adjectives and verbs 13:38:57 <|amethyst> Maybe I'm overcomplicating 13:39:06 I was just about to ask about adjectives, yes 13:39:07 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:45 "You can see a gloves here." 13:39:47 hehehe 13:40:43 <|amethyst> SamB: which does also point out that even things like the possible values for number need to vary on a language-by-language basis 13:40:53 <|amethyst> since in some languages that would want the plural and in other the dual 13:41:04 <|amethyst> and dual vs plural can't be inferred solely from the count 13:41:08 |amethyst: even *gettext* knows that much 13:41:33 <|amethyst> in some languages (not sure about Polish), "pair of gloves" would be dual, but "two orcs" would be plural 13:41:51 -!- neuwiz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:43:13 -!- araganzar has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44:03 * xFleury pulls out 三 sheets of paper and 二 pens, to take notes on this discussion. 13:44:25 hrmm, I forgot about the way the Inform library lets you use a string *or* a method for the value of the same property ... 13:45:07 -!- tabstorm has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:45:42 you might have a look at "internationalized nethack". it uses gettext but uses an enhanced printf format for handling the grammar bits: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_in_other_languages#NetHack-i18n 13:45:46 what Inform does for inflecting names with case is to have extra printing routines, it seems 13:46:09 bhaak: ooh, that is *exactly* the sort of prior art I was asking about earlier 13:46:47 but this also means there is quite some language specific code to be written 13:46:52 bhaak: do they have any special magic for diagnostics? 13:46:55 bhaak: was true anyway 13:47:44 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:57 for example the whole wishing code must be rewritten with this approach. in nethack-de I piggybacked the existing code. german terms entered by the player get translated into tokens that are added to the existing wishing code routine 13:49:09 SamB: IIRC the normal gettext routines for detecting untranslated stuff works in general. but of course that doesn't test language specific issues or grammar mistakes. 13:50:20 I was thinking more the "you broke the printf format!" type 13:51:11 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:26 ah, if the enhanced printf format is valid for a given language? not that I remember, I'll have a quick look 13:52:05 -!- Garhauk has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:52:38 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:36 !tell galehar http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_in_other_languages#NetHack-i18n 13:57:36 SamB: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:58:09 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:16 -!- lobf has quit [Quit: lobf] 13:58:59 -!- gammafunk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:31 SamB: some of the language specific stuff is done in Ruby scripts. including the format specifier parsing. I don't think he does now but that means you can easily write a format checker. 14:01:37 I wanted to do a short talk on various working translation strategies in roguelikes for last IRDC but rl intervened heavily 14:02:15 <|amethyst> International Real-life Developers Conference 14:02:27 the strange thing is that nethack is the roguelike with most translation attempts even though it is even less suited for it than your average roguelike 14:02:42 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:01 -!- tenofswords has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:29 -!- dalarist1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:09:09 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-1812-gf4d1516: Reduce manual of Invo acq weight for Jiyva worshippers (wheals) 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f4d151693003 14:09:09 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-1813-gc2b93a6: Restore acq weight for manual of necro under Fedhas (wheals) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2b93a613c47 14:09:35 -!- ProzacElf has joined ##crawl-dev 14:11:33 -!- HellTiger_ has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:12:06 -!- Cedor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:37 http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h#l1974 14:15:41 hi pan 14:22:36 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 14:22:39 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:49 -!- Escalator_ is now known as Escalator 14:27:23 %git :/pickup_mode 14:27:23 07ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} * 0.14-a0-1698-g5c0f9e6: Remove `pickup_mode` option, introduce `pickup_menu` 10(10 days ago, 5 files, 12+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5c0f9e6d2fb2 14:27:56 was this reverted? 14:28:22 %git :/pickup 14:28:22 07MarvinPA02 * 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af: Remove a Xom trap vault 10(19 hours ago, 2 files, 8+ 135-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dc2d5afaf691 14:29:32 seems to still be in my build from this morning 14:29:50 it's strange, on lantea I have the old behavior... 14:30:10 lantea probably hasn't rebuilt in a while 14:30:26 kb benched a build a couple weeks ago... against a raspi. the pi was faster 14:30:36 so clan doesn't get rebuilt often :) 14:30:38 It's on -1811-gdc2d5af 14:30:42 %git dc2d5af 14:30:43 07MarvinPA02 * 0.14-a0-1811-gdc2d5af: Remove a Xom trap vault 10(20 hours ago, 2 files, 8+ 135-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dc2d5afaf691 14:30:43 -!- lobf has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:30:59 so it's up to date 14:31:18 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:25 oh sorry.... 14:31:32 tried with only one item... 14:35:26 is there a file where we store magic numbers? 14:35:34 <|amethyst> !tell ChrisOelmueller Cedor at least was using pickup_mode = auto:N ; thoughts on how to restore it? Revert and just change the default, add a new numeric option pickup_menu_limit, or leave it as is 14:35:34 |amethyst: OK, I'll let chrisoelmueller know. 14:35:51 I already discuss this with him :p 14:35:51 <|amethyst> Cedor: depends on what kind of magic number you mean 14:36:08 I'm currently working on it 14:36:20 <|amethyst> aha 14:36:24 :p 14:36:37 <|amethyst> option defaults would probably go in the relevant places in initfile.cc 14:36:41 and to take your sentence, i'd say for pickup_menu_limit 14:36:45 ok 14:36:53 <|amethyst> I don't think there's much benefit to #defining those 14:36:58 ok 14:37:18 <|amethyst> !tell ChrisOelmueller Never mind, Cedor said he's working on it 14:37:19 |amethyst: OK, I'll let chrisoelmueller know. 14:37:33 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:37:39 <|amethyst> I guess I shouldn't make assumptions about pronouns 14:37:49 lol 14:37:55 was a good guess :p 14:39:25 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:25 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Changing host] 14:39:25 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:40 03|amethyst02 07* 0.14-a0-1814-gfeb5b5c: Remove another vestige of Pan (Hangedman) 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=feb5b5c398bd 14:39:41 -!- Mandevil has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:43:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:40 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:37 -!- myrmidette has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:57:15 -!- lobf has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:00:57 SamB: thanks for the link 15:01:05 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:38 that's my point, you can have grammar routine, you still need to extract strings and get translations, and gettext is useful for it 15:01:54 yeah, gettext can do that, it's true 15:02:42 I'm willing to look at alternatives, but I'm not seeing much (and kilobyte hasn't named any) 15:02:54 what is this inform library you keep talking about? 15:03:01 -!- tabstorm_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:03:14 Inform isn't really a library per se. 15:03:22 (assuming it's the Inform I'm familiar with) 15:03:35 it *has* a library 15:03:57 <|amethyst> galehar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inform 15:04:08 <|amethyst> programming language for IF 15:04:39 <|amethyst> (the WP article doesn't mention internationalization though) 15:04:57 * SamB is kind of surprised they don't call that page "Inform 6" 15:05:15 <+SamB> |amethyst: clearly a some sort of contextual flag is needed ... 15:05:16 <+SamB> and this sort of thing is EXACTLY why gettext is totally inadequate ... 15:05:20 I don't get this 15:05:27 gettext does support contextual flags 15:05:27 galehar: brain fart 15:05:37 I meant "gettext + printf" really 15:05:42 <|amethyst> SamB: it does mention (and give examples of) both 15:05:46 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:00 |amethyst: yeah, okay, fine ;-) 15:06:15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inform#Inform_6_library is what I was referring to 15:06:40 though it seems it doesn't actually come with any translations 15:08:44 just as reminder 15:09:11 the usual limit for text is 81 char before starting a new line? 15:09:24 <|amethyst> 80 15:09:24 (for commits desc, text files, etc) 15:09:28 ok 15:09:39 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:44 <|amethyst> In commit messages I would make it a little narrower 15:09:46 <|amethyst> more like 76 15:09:47 -!- ebarrett has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:09:56 because it's indented in git log 15:10:00 <|amethyst> yeah 15:11:05 elliptic: in case you're interested, I've made yet another weapon delay proposal: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:fighting_reform#th_january_2014_update 15:11:14 (or anyone else) 15:11:32 I should probably update the branch to get some playtesting 15:11:56 ok 15:13:53 galehar, just looking at this sheet reminds me that a while ago I was trying to come up with a way to have str_weight be more meaningful for melee weapons for the purpose of differentation and was wondering if it could have an impact on weapon delay somehow. 15:14:11 I didn't give it a tremendous amount of thought, but since you're thinking about this again I thought I'd mention it. 15:14:12 galehar: the charts in the spreadsheet aren't visible for me (there is some error "Data column(s) for axis #0 cannot be of type string.") 15:14:12 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:14:35 Grunt: I'd rather just remove str_weight altogether, it feels like an unnecessary parameter 15:15:16 elliptic: only if you're willing to come up with something for ranged weapons which doesn't use it :b 15:15:51 -!- omnirizon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:14 I thought the plan for ranged weapons was to make them work like melee weapons 15:17:08 anyway I'm not opposed to having str/dex affect delay, I just think it doesn't need to use a different weighting for every weapon 15:19:35 I think str_weight is actually pretty cool concept. Though it took a detailed explanation from |amethyst before I understood it: http://i.imgur.com/630m9yv.png 15:19:45 Prior to that, everyone I had talked to said "it does nothing". >.> 15:21:27 "it does basically nothing" is more useful honestly 15:22:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:42 The only weapon it does a lot on is the dark maul. 15:26:01 But that's an unrandart so you shouldn't build your game around getting that. 15:26:51 -!- nixor has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:23 Poison arrow does not always incur poison damage by hayenne 15:30:53 -!- bonghitz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:57 Bloax: I haven't looked far into it, but I'm very skeptical that when I enter extended with a +8 executioner's axe (holy) that's 90% str_weight, and strength heavy Hill Orc, that str_weight is basically doing nothing for me. 15:31:20 how does strength weight affect your decision-making 15:32:17 Well, in this case, it would be prior to starting the character. 15:32:30 how did it affect your decision-making then 15:33:47 it made me do a couple of silly characters that only pumped str and went chei just to check it out 15:34:01 but otherwise it doesn't since you should already be using the biggest weapon 15:39:17 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:38 elliptic: have you try to toggle some weapons? The chart have 3 axes enabled by default, they don't show up? Or does it fail when you toggle? 15:41:56 btw, can you edit the spreadsheet directly or do you have to make a copy first? 15:42:11 -!- LexAckson has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:45:01 galehar: it worked when I made a copy (I couldn't see anything in the chart or edit anything myself before making a copy) 15:46:49 galehar: there are not many alternatives because usually translations are done with gettext orsomething similar and what AFAIK there is no generic framework available that helps doing more than that. even in professional games you often see errors that are clearly due to the insufficient gettext like approach. 15:48:58 bhaak: thanks for the info, that confirm what I was thinking 15:49:04 galehar: for internationalized nethack I am confident in claiming with my experience that it looks like a fully working solution when finished but I am not sure how much it helps and eases the translation effort as such. maybe there are better solutions out there (e.g. less generic but also less confusing) 15:49:42 ok 15:50:40 bhaak: hrmm, making it *possible* to translate without rewriting almost the entire program seems like a good start to me ... 15:51:12 I mean, without rewriting almost the entire program *again* for every new language 15:51:34 and the subsequent merging difficulties 15:53:06 <|amethyst> Too bad this is Common Lisp and Crawl is not: http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/langpro/kpml/README.html 15:53:34 yes, we should totally rewrite Crawl in Lisp 15:53:35 galehar: hm, so I'm not opposed to testing out something like this formula, but I am worried that it seems like how much weapon skill you have won't affect which weapon for that skill you choose to use 15:53:59 SamB: in theory, yes. but tackling the easy part i.e. fixed strings first is an approach with great risks. you don't know if you have to throw out that code because it can't be made to work with the part that will handle the grammar part (that is the hard part) 15:54:19 -!- Tellian has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:54:36 galehar: since it looks like (damage with weapon1 at skill x)/(damage with weapon2 at skill x) won't depend on x at all? 15:54:47 bhaak: I meant that the "internationalized nethack" approach seems like a good starting point 15:54:58 or I guess slightly if the weapons are enchanted since that part won't be multiplied by the damage boost from skill 15:55:13 that's why I clarified about "again for every new language" etc 15:57:54 elliptic: wouldn't you favour light weapon at low skill and heavy ones at high skill? The delay difference is even greater than currently 15:58:16 +SamB> yes, we should totally rewrite Crawl in Lisp SamB: in theory, yes. 15:58:20 <3 15:59:02 galehar: no, you'd favor whichever one does more damage/time (which is what I meant by "damage" above if that wasn't clear) 15:59:05 bhaak: I have at no point endorsed the "translate fixed strings" idea 15:59:11 unless they are very close, then you'd prefer the faster weapon 16:00:02 galehar: my point is that it looks like with this formula, if you do 30% more damage/time with a battleaxe than with a hand axe at skill 20, then you also will at skill 10 16:00:03 * SamB might also prefer something with a lower standard deviation of damage/time 16:00:15 -!- Krakhan has quit [Changing host] 16:00:16 I guess accuracy is also a thing 16:00:39 -!- Piginabag has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:01:18 I think translating fixed strings first is not so bad because then the fixed strings actually get translated, which is good even if the necessary code ends up not being used in the end. As long as the actual translations can be used it's probably worth it. 16:01:20 hmm 16:01:45 galehar: basically this formula might be fine if we don't want players to think about delay at all when choosing which axe to use 16:01:50 re weapon delay: yeah, I see the same problem elliptic mentioned 16:02:06 but in that case we need to make accuracy or something more relevant, which might be hard 16:02:58 one problem is that any approach which will keep the relevance of skill level for weapon choice will probably also have the associated problems of mindelay 16:03:16 namely, that you will never know which weapon to use without spoilers 16:03:29 I'd really prefer if weapons have a "progression" like they do now 16:03:30 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:03:58 so maybe I should go back to the previous proposal? 16:04:02 me too, but in that case something like current mindelay will be necessary 16:04:04 it's nice if heavy weapons require high skill, becuase the way weapons are right now, they are often in fairly distinct "tiers" 16:04:08 delay = base_delay / (1 + (skill * base_delay) / 27) 16:04:17 possibly mindelay could be decoupled from starting delay 16:04:39 I tried another one because it seemed to be easier to make it close to the current one 16:05:37 alefury: imo something that would help a lot is imporving the weapon info screen. it shows current delay now, and I think it ought to show current damage too 16:05:46 evilmike: I agree, and that's what I'm aiming for. I thought increasing the base delay of heavy weapons would help 16:06:05 by current damage I mean, the base damage modified by your skills, with the enchantment added on and I guess brands 16:06:20 how about just completely capping the effect of weapon skill depending on the weapon? 16:06:26 <|amethyst> evilmike: it doesn't show current delay now? 16:06:30 <|amethyst> evilmike: just base and min 16:06:36 also that, yes :( 16:06:37 |amethyst: oh ok 16:06:45 you can see current delay in the turn display though 16:06:59 if you actually know that it changes and how to read the turn display 16:06:59 <|amethyst> yeah, if you have a turn to waste 16:07:13 it would still be nice to show current damage anyways, because if you have that and the delay you generally have the info you need 16:07:46 hell it could even show the "damage per turn" (100 aut) 16:08:07 ok, more refined proposal: the effect of skill level saturates, and how fast it saturates depends on the weapon 16:08:33 alefury: that's basically what min delay does 16:08:47 without a breakpoint though 16:08:52 which i thought was the whole point 16:08:54 <|amethyst> galehar: except it could still be a curve rather than a hockey-stick 16:09:21 min delay is worse than a breakpoint since the speed increase accelerates and then stop 16:09:40 galehar: I'm just saying, I would be much more interested in merging code that was working on the tricky parts ... 16:09:46 also it would be easy to show in a description: this weapon does twice as much at X skill than at 0 skill, where X is a property of the weapon 16:10:00 this might also work for a smooth delay btw 16:10:48 SamB: merging what code? 16:10:48 having all effects of weapon skill depend on X would be a bit easier to grasp than mindelay imo 16:11:07 much harder to make it close to the current numbers though 16:11:13 galehar: well, yes, somebody would have to write it obviously! 16:11:49 -!- heteroy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:59 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Quit: quit] 16:12:59 huh. Well, now I have no idea what to do with weapon delay. Maybe I'll just go back to i18n :) 16:13:08 alternatively and possibly way better, just scale the skill level depending on weapon 16:13:19 -!- Azrael_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:13:56 large weapons benefit more from high skill than small ones, but the same scaled skill level does the same for all (unenchanted) weapons 16:14:02 that might work pretty well actually 16:15:01 another thing, maybe attack delay should not vary with skill level at all 16:15:58 it would make it easier to differentiate weapons, it would be more clear, and apart from making skill level relevant for weapon choice I don't really see the point of it 16:16:17 urgh, "it" refers to different things in that sentence 16:17:10 anyway, I think an approach like this would work much better than the current system or something designed to replicate the current system except without breakpoints 16:17:21 would it would require coming up with new stats for all the weapons, which would suck 16:17:45 i - the +13,+4 demon blade "Leech" {vamp, rN+ EV-1 Str-1 Dex-1 Int-1} 9194 gold 16:17:58 well isn't that a reasonable price 16:18:00 probably worth it eventually, but definitely not easy and a pretty far reaching change 16:18:24 (Lear's Hauberk suffers from the same issue.) 16:18:26 Bloax: come up with new prices and talk to dpeg about it 16:18:55 Bloax: he was working on prices with someone, but they stopped after getting through half the stuff or something 16:19:25 sounds like a plan 16:19:33 Bloax: also someone reduced high prices a while ago, but apparently stupid items can still be crazy expensive 16:19:54 Is dpeg still around? What's the easiest way to contact him? 16:20:01 email probably 16:20:09 the one listed on the dev wiki works 16:20:14 -!- twelwe has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:20:15 !seen dpeg 16:20:16 I last saw dpeg at Tue Dec 24 03:31:36 2013 UTC (2w 1d 18h 48m 39s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Lost terminal'. 16:20:29 interestingf 16:21:34 <|amethyst> the plus and plus2 enchantments introduce cubic and quadratic terms 16:21:39 <|amethyst> in the price 16:22:23 galehar: I guess I could try to come up with a proper proposal for new weapon stats, should I bother? 16:25:43 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:44 -!- DrinkMachine has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:49 alefury: well I did 16:27:02 g'night 16:27:10 -!- Bloax has quit [Quit: Error: Bloax not found] 16:27:26 I mean I changed the base delay in my weapon delay proposal 16:27:43 I'll still update the branch and run some fsim 16:27:45 -!- gammafun1 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:28:11 -!- gammafun1 has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:50 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:30:22 -!- fooobarrr has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:47 galehar: what do you think of making delay fixed, and introducing an additional "skill factor" weapon stat? 16:31:42 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:32:23 what does it do? 16:32:38 Oh, this reminds me of another idea I've had floating around for a while: 16:32:40 weapon skill level is multiplied by it 16:32:56 fudge some numbers so that to really take advantage of a quick blade's inherent speed, you need to be really good with short blades <_< 16:33:21 I think that would be much cleaner than hiding the effect of skill level in the base delay number 16:33:42 well, the difference in the effect of skill level on different weapons 16:33:58 alefury: I'm not sure about fixed delay 16:34:20 it might be annoying to swing a >10 delay weapon for all game 16:34:33 it would allow more differentiation 16:35:02 most weapons could have delay <= 1 16:35:07 could always change how min delay works so you don't have all non-really-fast weapons with the same delay 16:37:59 -!- Escalator has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38:10 I think with the purposed changes, I would train my skills more uniformly; I wouldn't make the commitment to train axes from 25->27 nearly as early. And that seems a little less exciting. :| 16:38:24 Yeah, that's the main point. But I don't really see a lot of good reasons why attack delay should change with skill. 16:38:54 xFleury: you should probably not train axes from 25 to 27 "early", whatever that means to you 16:39:03 most characters should probably never do that 16:39:09 because it's a highly visible and effective way to make your weapon usage better 16:39:18 its not highly visible 16:39:19 and yeah, there's generally not a reason to go to 27 axes skill 16:39:27 alefury: attacking twice as fast is pretty noticeable 16:39:34 its highly important once you know it exists 16:39:45 but its certainly not highly visible 16:39:54 it's as easy to notice as pretty much any other effect of training your skills 16:40:22 I guess maybe if you have crawl set to not show real turns, and don't pay a lot of attention, maybe you don't notice 16:41:07 <|amethyst> increasing damage definitely isn't noticeable 16:41:14 yeah 16:41:17 <|amethyst> seeing as how we don't show damage numbers 16:41:23 increased accuracy is probably also less noticeable than increased speed 16:41:26 <|amethyst> I mean, I guess you can see when the damage is doubled 16:41:31 <|amethyst> because of ! 16:41:33 there are !s, but those arent explained anywhere 16:41:34 the game also tells you in at least two places what your attack speed is 16:41:41 not to mention indirectly noticing because stuff isn't attacking you back as often 16:42:04 okay fine, maybe I'm wrong 16:42:35 !s aren't explained anywhere but the attack verbs change 16:42:36 my memory is a little fuzzy because it was a long time ago, but if I recall correctly it took me a while to notice when I started playing Crawl 16:42:41 so it's obvious what means more damage 16:43:34 but real turns werent the default then so maybe its better now 16:44:00 some things could certainly be made more obvious, I guess, but that's the case with a lot of things 16:45:06 -!- substitute_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:19 I play tiles, and in my experience the tiles interface is a real problem. It takes a lot of focus away from the message area, and even now I don't really pay attention to the messages. 16:45:32 -!- Basil has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:45:35 -!- mizu_no_oto has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:46:16 pickup menu behavior adjustment by Cedor 16:47:19 -!- DrinkMachine has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:27 et hop! 16:47:30 time to sleep 16:47:34 <|amethyst> Cedor: one problem I see is that you mention "5" in one place and "4" in another 16:47:43 rah fuck 16:48:09 -!- Datul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:48:36 -!- hayenne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:50 |amethyst: I've seen these frameworks (I had some computer linguistics). Those are usually overengineered monsters. Have you seen the example sentences? Although I completely agree with the rewrite of crawl in lisp. Functional programming is the past and the future! ;-) 16:48:57 ah yes, forget to adjust the fisrt description... 16:50:22 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:52 I wouldn't care if it's Lisp, Haskell, Python, or like Go. So long as it was a switch to a language that had a fantastic cross-platform IDE, so that there would be only a single project file. 16:54:09 -!- Cedor has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:54:25 -!- ShadeTornado has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:47 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:55:11 IDEs are for programming languages what tiles are for roguelikes. The hardcore users don't like them ;-) 16:55:43 -!- tsohg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:00 but what is the equivalent of worse people giving more entertaining deaths from having webtiles 16:56:54 programmers having problem with cmake or maven 16:58:48 who made the insane angel zin/xom vault 16:58:50 that was amusing 16:58:58 grunt 16:59:05 for some reason I thought it might have been him 16:59:21 -!- Ladykiller69 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:26 -!- CampinSam` has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:47 G-Flex: was it the "insane" that clued you in? 17:00:05 Insane as in the angel is confused, SamB :b 17:00:14 confused and has weird speech 17:00:18 unless all confused angels have that speech 17:00:26 * geekosaur loved that when he got it 17:06:59 -!- bonghitz has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:08:33 <|amethyst> only confused Zin angels 17:08:56 <|amethyst> %git 3bc9d533 17:08:56 07Grunt02 * 0.13-a0-1761-g3bc9d53: A bit of speech for the angel in _order_and_chaos_1. 10(7 months ago, 1 file, 20+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bc9d533b18c 17:09:44 <|amethyst> hmm 17:10:05 <|amethyst> database keys aren't case-sensitive are they? 17:10:39 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:10:40 |amethyst: that's a dbname, actually (check for plain "zin angel"). 17:10:44 <|amethyst> Grunt: right 17:11:00 <|amethyst> Grunt: What I'm wondering is whether it would also apply to "Zin angel" 17:11:07 <|amethyst> e.g. a regular angel when the player worships Zin 17:11:11 ...possibly? 17:11:19 <|amethyst> s/e\.g\./i.e./ 17:12:00 -!- qoon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:05 Apparently, yes. 17:12:42 <|amethyst> yeah 17:13:40 <|amethyst> could change the dbname to zinangel I guess 17:14:30 <|amethyst> also, it would be nice to have some tag for the monster's religion 17:14:51 <|amethyst> (I hacked pghosts to use that instead of the player's religion, but that's not ideal) 17:15:54 <|amethyst> alas, adding a new category of tag looks like it would be a combinatorial pain 17:15:57 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:13 You hear a combinatorial explosion! 17:16:28 <|amethyst> there's a recent bug about this 17:16:37 <|amethyst> well, not about this, but caused by the confusion 17:16:52 <|amethyst> #7839 17:17:55 <|amethyst> the problem the player described (an bad/unperformed substitution) is unrelated, but the message shouldn't happen anyway 17:18:20 -!- magicpoints has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:21 -!- orionstein is now known as orionstein_away 17:18:56 <|amethyst> friendly good god 'cap-A' means a neutral A that is speaking to a worshipper of a good god 17:19:03 -!- xFleury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310]] 17:19:15 <|amethyst> and since this servitor was speaking to mennas... 17:20:14 <|amethyst> (That particular message would be fine and snarky, but "Thou must remain pure in the battle against evil" or "Praised be Elyvilon in the heavens above" would not be 17:20:18 <|amethyst> ) 17:21:02 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:17 been a while 17:22:52 indeed! 17:22:53 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:23:30 -!- substitute_ is now known as Basil 17:28:26 dpeg: hey! Bloax was looking for you earlier 17:28:28 23:15 < Bloax> i - the +13,+4 demon blade "Leech" {vamp, rN+ EV-1 Str-1 Dex-1 Int-1} 9194 gold 17:28:32 23:15 < Bloax> well isn't that a reasonable price 17:28:55 fits the name! 17:29:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:37 if shop prices are going to be given a look at, gadget shops could be tweaked I think. they tend to be rather pricey, I'm not sure if anyone even buys stuff from them 17:29:38 The Leech bites you! The Leech draws money from your wallet! 17:29:55 <|amethyst> yeah 17:30:07 evilmike, I frequently buy things from gadget shops, but generally only on characters I know are going to use them. 17:30:23 I agree that the prices are unreasonable right now, though. 17:31:04 <|amethyst> oddly, if I'm reading this correctly, +13,+4 is somewhat more expensive than +4,+13 17:31:29 hmm weird. The AvTime given by fsim seems to be off by about +8 17:31:30 back when I looked at prices, I stopped at some point 17:31:33 also, i think they could just be merged with wand shops, with "gadgets" having a low weight. so a wand shop might have like 3 of them stocked 17:31:36 call me flakepeg 17:31:37 but that's not a strong opinion 17:31:51 or I'm wearing a shield 17:31:55 dumb me 17:32:10 evilmike: what do you think of (perhaps in addition) wand shops sometimes stocking ?recharging? 17:32:24 nah, there are already scroll shops 17:32:31 -!- Twinge has quit [] 17:33:28 -!- Shade_Tornado has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:02 -!- CampinSam` is now known as CampinSam 17:34:59 -!- Brokkr is now known as fre 17:35:08 -!- fre is now known as Brokkr 17:35:28 dpeg: I had another Asterion idea; How about a 'makhlebified' version of spectral weapon where he gets branded demon weapon instead of the usual spectral weapon 17:35:50 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:35:50 dpeg: And when the demon weapon spectre hits the player, asterion gets hp back 17:36:12 -!- rchandra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:22 that second aspect is kind of a play on the player ability, but it's perahps unecessary 17:37:06 <|amethyst> I predict making spectral weapon work for monsters in remotely the same was as for players will be Great Fun 17:37:15 <|amethyst> s/was/way/ 17:37:37 |amethyst: yes was thinking there would be issues. I haven't looked at the code, so ...fools rush in.. 17:37:52 (The angel turns to flee!) 17:38:10 At least it would be thematic in interesting, if it could be made to work 17:38:12 <|amethyst> it's not completely hopeless, in that plenty of things in the SW code do check monster vs player 17:38:27 <|amethyst> but things like acting right after the player's turn, I'm not so sure about 17:38:44 <|amethyst> s/player's/caster's/ 17:38:46 <|amethyst> At the very least it would need lots of testing 17:38:50 ah, right 17:38:54 -!- Basil has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:39:06 I suppose it could simply be more like a summoned dancing weapon 17:39:08 <|amethyst> also, in practice it would maybe be too easy to avoid 17:39:09 <|amethyst> yeah 17:39:21 <|amethyst> because SW requires you to be adjacent to both of them 17:39:47 would something more like a dancing weapon be able to share damage with the caster at least? 17:39:48 <|amethyst> (or adjacent to the caster and near-adjacent to the SW so it can move to you and attack in the same turn) 17:40:47 perhaps somethign more like a dancing weapon that shares damage and has blink closer 17:41:12 <|amethyst> gammafunk: yeah, it would need special-case code in monster::react_to_damage 17:41:41 I see 17:41:41 <|amethyst> try it with SW first, it might not be as bad as I though 17:41:42 <|amethyst> t 17:42:13 <|amethyst> qoala did put effort into making it not assume the player cast it 17:42:34 ok, maybe I'll just give the patch a shot instead of brainstorming endlessly :) 17:42:36 <|amethyst> but that hasn't been tested, at least not thoroughly 17:42:59 also, fr: monster spell called brainstorm 17:44:15 <|amethyst> gammafunk: sonds more like a nemelex ability: draw three cards then put two of them back on the deck 17:44:21 summon giant orange brains, you could give it to mnoleg 17:44:55 <|amethyst> gammafunk: Much less overpowered than Ancestral Recall Four, but still restricted 17:45:15 ...Ancestral Recall Four...hahah 17:45:28 <|amethyst> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292751 17:45:32 -!- Nightbeer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:21 word of ancestral recall 17:52:02 gravestorm 17:52:10 puts accents on all the creatures in los 17:53:38 S�j�b� shouts! 17:54:22 The d��p �lf �nn�h�l�t�r casts a spell. 17:55:17 Do we have an elven language translation 17:55:30 gammafunk: get to work! 17:55:47 �ls��w calls upon the tide 17:56:21 �t 17:56:30 �r�lch� hits you with a g��nt sp�k�d cl�b! 17:56:51 giant spik�d clubs 17:57:04 what's the timeframe for quenya crawl 17:57:10 i,i �r�lch� 17:57:14 georgian letters look very elven 17:57:25 <|amethyst> Éŕóĺćḣá 17:57:41 <|amethyst> needs more accents 17:57:43 good night! :) 17:57:48 you're making me wish i didn't have unicode support 17:57:53 Erol�a 17:57:56 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:58:14